Framework is literally one of the few laptops going AMD Advantage this year, so that immediately makes them stand out, especially given that it's the only laptop with an AMD dGPU that is meant to run Linux just as well as or better than Windows. That is literally why i bought this laptop; not having to deal with the company Linus Torvalds himself called "the single worse company [the Linux community] has ever dealt with" and publicly flipping off is a massive win for Linux users that may have not been able to get a dGPU laptop before. I'm so glad that we have more Linux hardware laptops to choose from! (The major OEMs seem to be moving away from Linux, which pisses me off.)
Alienware’s AMD advantage laptops also work decently with Linux, but you sadly can’t adjust the RGB lighting, and they make passing through the device to a Windows VM painful. Sadly you are then dealing with Dell.
@@KingKrouchMy keyboard has software that's only available on Windows, but you can fully adjust the RGB completely without it, and that's awesome. It'll even work if you plug it into a playstation.
Dell is offering the XPS 15 series with Intel Arc dGPU as an option. Well, DX12 still seems to be a pain but, if you intend to use you your GPU professionally that is to say, with OpenGL and OpenCL then, you're about to get a pretty devent performance on Linux while you have an absolutely flawless user experience which seems to be even better than with AMD unless your distro finally either switches to rusticl or gets offiacial support for amdgpu-pro. For example, I've an HP ZBook with integrated RDNA3 GPU. It's almost a wonderful device for an Ubuntu user like me with a very good match of performance and enegry effienccy. But, sometimes I wihed I'd bought an Intel device. It's because it's literally impossible to get a working OpenCL environmet on Ubuntu. Latest Ubuntu 23.10 still utilises fucking Clover OpenCL that is shit. AMDGPU-PRO doesn't support 23.10 officially and my try to get it work implied 17 error messages. Of course, 22.04 isn't a feasible option on this hardware. Even if I get a new kernel, mesa would still be to old. Ans besides, I need wayland to get my monitor setup working properly and Wayland on Kubuntu 23.10 (Plasma) was a pain too. So, I have to wait for 24.04.
they keep measuring it without factoring sustainability and repairability. Something that turns into a piece of garbage in a month or a year can win that contest. Short term design can win in Short term thinking paradigm.
Exactly. Trying to get parts for a laptop that hasn't been sold for a few years is next to impossible. Imagine just fixing the part rather than needing to buy a whole new laptop... Also, I haven't really felt excited about any laptop this year apart from this one; maybe that's because OEMs don't get the market anymore...
Precisely this - people compare the costs but are so used to living in a disposable world that they don't even consider repair costs. My xps USB c port cost $100+ to replace because it's soldered to the main board and I needed to find a shop willing to do the manual labor. Even then they really didn't want to do it and made me find a donor board on my own. It would have saved me so much money if I could have just replaced a module. The hinge on some laptops is integrated into the chassis. You're just supposed to toss the whole thing if it breaks. I strongly believe that if you use your electronics for a long time, a framework will come out ahead in cost.
Idk, it's alittle hyperbolic to say a month or year of use for the other laptops. The other aspect is laptop repair is quite the business and if your laptop got damaged or its GPU had an issue, you can get that repaired in most cases. The real somewhat winner is the upgradeability, but I'm not entirely sure how far we can take that. If this was a computer that I could upgrade to the latest and greatest, then yeah, a winner. For this product to really make sense, they need to be able to upgrade to the tip top of graphics and CPU for at least two generations. I wish for them success but they probably need more funding.
agree with the hyperboli (not counting the 200usd disposable laptops). Even if we can agree to 5-10 year paradigm it would be a step to the right direction.
To be honest, I was sold as soon as I saw that the keyboard can be removed and replaced. If you can change pieces, then it cannot be overpriced, you're going to save money. Not being able to replace pieces safely is how I was forced into changing laptops 3 times in the past 7 years.
One of the reasons i used to buy Mac airs was how easy it was to replace parts, with the newer Mac airs that's not possible. Now I've changed to Lenovo X1 Carbon's running linux. The Framework laptops look interesting and I'm seriously looking at getting one.
I think "you're going to save money" is probably not the most accurate statement? It's not false though... It's just that you can do maintenance on it a bit like you would a car. You can do maintenance easily, replace parts that worn out, upgrade parts if you feel like it... all of that until your chassis cannot hold on anymore. It's not a money saver compared to other options, it has a cost of owner ship. Though I agree with you that this cost of ownership is likely to be lower than changing laptops over the same period of ownership.
@@shijikoribut you can replace the chassis too, they sell both parts of it. It's more repairable then a car and the customizability also allows for the user to put higher quality parts into it as well.
@@damianateiroDo you _need_ something 2 or 3 times more powerful ? I'm sure there might be use-cases where something that powerful is needed. Maybe for 3D rendering ? I don't know. My current laptop is worth 900€. I can get pretty much the same thing with Framework at 1825€. Except I won't have to buy the same laptop again in two years (this one already has some hardware issues ranging from hard to impossible to fix, after just one year of use). I don't know... seems like a good deal to me. It is expensive, but dead laptops are piling up in my home, and I would much rather be able to easily change broken parts than having to buy a new laptop everytime. Plus, I already have a lot of spares hanging around, so I might not even have to buy the full thing.
Exactly, I have a keyboard with a minor fault, and due to the yoga build I would need to replace the whole top panel with the keyboard and the track pad... maddening
My next laptop is going to be a framework something. I dont care if Apples m-series laptops can whoop its ass. I dont care that if it *IS* more expensive for the same hardware than competing products. Never again, do I want to open my laptop case and think "ah shit, here we go again".
@@tonytinza I am saying the M1 and friends are blisteringly fast CPUs. That is undeniable. I am also saying that I own a macbook, an intel one, and.... well..... I have my reasons. Reason 1: repairability. This macbook has been completely useless for weeks to months at a time. There are no independent repair shops near me, and apple brand repair sucks, so I have to do it myself. It is an unmitigated pain in the ass. I've been borrowing someone else's old HP laptop for the past 4 ish months because of screen issues. Finally fixed it last week, but I should not have to borrow a Horrible-Product of all things for months. In the future it will simply not be an option. 2: Software. MacOS has such bad software support it's pretty much mandatory to install another OS for anything but browsing and typing documents. The m1 can't run windows. At all. Furthermore, the bootcamp drivers are absolute garbage and I suspect they're intentionally slow. Furthermore, Windows drives me insane every time I use it. Thus, Linux. Linux on a macbook is... one of the experiences of all time. I can finally do stuff! Yay! freedom from the four buttons of customization at last! time to close it... oh look, the sleep doesnt work at all. I have heard legends, that in the far corners of the internet, there exists a solution. I cannot confirm or deny them, but I have simply turned sleep off entirely. Oh, and if your favorite distro isnt on the list of community ISOs? Yeah... you are NOT going to have a fun time. Lets compare this with Framework. Newer ones come with AMD stuff, and AMD is both really good hardware and the linux drivers, unlike the windows ones, are actually really good. Both linux and windows support out of the box, and a little tinkering could probably get BSD working too. Screws are color coded normal screws instead of Apples proprietary pentalobe BS nothing is soldered that doesn't absolutely have to be Screen broke? no problem. it was DESIGNED to be repairable. Just fix it. boom, done. Framework has a schematics and documentation available, so you KNOW whats wrong, not guessing.
@@tonytinza But it isn't better. That's the point. Anything can have some metrics that someone finds nice whether it's power consumption or benchmark, but if it doesn't actually provide the value a consumer is looking for, it's an inferior product. That's why i'm never buying Apple hardware, because it just doesn't have value to me for all the bs i'd have to deal with.
@@tonytinza Nobody was talking to you either, ass. Why would anyone purchase something that has no value to them? Read what they're saying first. Plus, Apple is still not cheaper. It's just two different products that offer different things.
@@tonytinzaNobody was talking to you either before @Nina-cd2eh . Two metrics are not enought to define the entirety of a product or any object. It is healthy to acknowledge the positives of multiple things and then assessing which one you value more and then to act on that assessment.
I'm glad that my company decided to buy the 13 inch Framework Notebooks for us instead of lenovo notebooks. It's way easier for our administration to repair them if something isn't working instead of just replacing them and we allways have some parts here that can be used.
Wasn't aware of any kind of "controversy" around Framework 16. It's my personal dream laptop. If I didn't already have a pretty good one, this would be an instant buy for me. By the way, one reason typing seems somewhat weak on the Framework 16 is apparently that the keyboard is a bit flimsy (the metal plate holding it being very thin and bending easily on pressure). It can very easily be remedied by putting one or two thermal pads under it, supporting the keyboard from below and eliminating any wobble.
This is an excellent style of presentation. Obviously English is not the man's first language but he uses a good pace and covers things with captions for points of reference. This invites us to view other products and websites. My work is in state education acquisition and we have to project some years ahead. Dissatisfaction with Microsoft's Windows 11 and general attitude to keeping their word has made us consider different systems and products for school and university use. Mac is one way to go but non-repairability without return to base haggling has no place in state education and health consistency, which many north west European and Commonwealth countries have. Being able to run Windows in Home edition for lower years education has some advantages but as young people progress in IT Linux is emerging as more than a contender. Windows could easily be replaced by a new OS similar to it, possibly from the far east. Our technical staff are looking at these and have tested Framework products too. With state-based orders to a list of present and future requirements, Framework could easily become the new standard stock brand.
While totally in favor of the Framework products, I'm running Fedora on Lenovo IdeaPad 5 Pro (16" 2.5K, Ryzen 7 7840HS) and I'm quite happy with how it works. My only complaint is the soldered-in memory (32 GB 6400 MT/s). But the price (1040 USD) was hard to beat, and, besides, Framework laptops are almost unobtainable in my country.
Same here, I'm very happy how Nobora supports Lenovos AMD models. I'm just a little sad that I didn't wait and save up for a Framework, just because they're so cleverly designed and built for longevity.
The problem with Lenovo is, that the laptops are designed by people who think that connecting the hinge and display housing with 4 mini screws (Philips 00 mini) in brass inserts into plastic at a radius of just a centimeter is fine. (This quite obviously was not fine for my IdeaPad flex 5 14alc05)
The worst aspect of framework laptops is that I can’t buy one in Finland. Honestly I do not care about gpu. I’m able to do everything 3d intensive I need on my desktop. The fact that you can still get a high end cpu without dedicated gpu and without windows tax is great. For framework pricing that’s 600$ of savings. Also it supports 64gb ram, which isn’t unique but in combination of the other aspects, especially the optional gpu, that’s a rare one. I needed to get a laptop for linux cluster virtualization, so a dgpu with potential reliability problems is a strong negative aspect. So I needed the best cpu and at least 64gb of ram. I ended up compromising on the cpu since higher end models all come bundled with dgpu. Yes there would’ve been ”ideal” models, for example from Lenovo but again, the challenge was to find a distributor who had that model available.
That LTT video was about how it's risky to invest money like that in startups. It wasn't at all a negative video. It was just a clickbait title to get people to watch it and obviously he also doesn't want to tell his audience to make house price level investments in risky businesses that might fail. He's still a massive fan of the product as is only right. I expect the right to repair guy just has recommendations about how they could improve the design going forward, which I'm sure if they're good/viable they'll use. Elevated systems released yet another video about their (really cool) home made case for the Framework board that looks quite like a Fractal Design Terra or North (I mean, on a dark night at a distance it's not a copy but it has wood). I don't honestly think there's any controversy about the Framework at all. I suspect anyone genuinely whining is a bit of a muppet who doesn't quite understand the concept. Obviously it's 'expensive' because it's a small company and you're having to pay a premium. For features you literally can't get elsewhere so....
The closest thing to being a controversial laptop for me; in being somewhat disappointing, is that it does not use coreboot, that's it. Do I wish it could be cheaper, sure, but its still probably better value in the long run than a cheaper laptop (not just in terms of what you don't have to buy later, but also in what industry trends you sponsor). When I eventually find a reason to replace my 2019 xps 13 (and yes I got the 2-in-1 assuming that the camera would be supported because it is on the non convertible version and felt very cheated), it will be a framework, tuxedo or starlabs (or maybe sys76).
Speaking about that Dell XPS 2 in 1, I'm pretty sure it has *zero* repairability or upgradability. Those are dealbreakers for me. I don't care how much a laptop costs; give me a replaceable SSD or go away; you'll never get my recommendation! As for laptops running Linux natively, only StarLabs and Framework are worth it to me. System76 still has no 16 : 10 screen options except for a 1920 x 1200 option pared with up to an RTX 4070; a waste for that GPU and their only laptop with an RTX 4080 or 4090 has a 16 : 9 4K screen, which is not only cramped for vertical worm, but also overkill for even an RTX 4090 and likely going to kill battery life. Tuxedo lacks ANSI keyboard layouts on their newest laptops; that's enough for me not to buy them because I've tried ISO keyboards, and I hated them. They also refuse (to this day) to give us modern laptops with ANSI; they're throwing away the entire ANSI keyboard market by not offering it as even a special option. I know it increases cost, but if they want more people to buy them, they're going to have to offer these keyboards sooner rather than later. The one problem with StarLabs (for me) is that they have no laptops with a dGPU. I edit videos and play PC games on Steam, and while the 780M in the AMD Ryzen StarFighter is pretty good for light gaming, it falls apart for any tougher games above low settings at 1080p and video editing is pretty much a no go without a dGPU. I do like how they and Framework use custom designs instead of Tongfang or Clevo rebrands, which obviously increases costs but guarantees everything works on Linux, because that's the main OS supported by StarLabs and Framework also has official support for Linux. As for coreboot, I think why they don't use it is because I think coreboot doesn't work well with Windows, and Windows 11 is a supported OS on these laptops, so...
@@cameronbosch1213 I had a dell inspiron before which lasted me for years, and had a single screw bottom cover for very easy access inside, so I thought going for a dell laptop with official ubuntu support (which I didn't realise didn't apply to the 2-in-1 variant) might be a good idea, and in 2019, most laptops from smaller companies were clevo based I think, and very chunky, and part of the point was to get something a little more professional looking. That inspiron though, i7 6th gen and 970gtx for like 600 quid, it was a great deal. Luckily there's some very nice looking laptops now from tuxedo, etc. The 16inch framework is tempting because I would love a custom split keyboard, with two ortholinear clusters...
Framework is designed to be repairable, they've made no claims about using open source stuff like Coreboot. That's the tinfoil hat wearing brigade projecting. Plus most are sold with Windows which Coreboot doesn't play that well with. Even if they did, that'd be a whole ton of work for something bleeding edge like the new AMD platform for such a small team.
@@johnroberts2905 Actually AMD's initiative, OpenSIL might be the thing that boosts coreboot. And its not just "the tinfoil brigade". Ironically I think tencent were looking into it for their datacenters, because I guess they were cautious of potential western backdoors. Its not just about knowing what software in on the hardware that you bought though, its also in case you want to be able to modify it yourself, plenty of people don't want to, but still, why shouldn't I be able to mod it if I want to? Modifiability is similar to self-repair in that DIY spirit. Not wanting to be at the behest of the vendor, giving them unfair leverage is just pragmatic and pro competition (otherwise if people exploit their privileged position, they need not innovate).
@@johnroberts2905 Exactly. AMD coreboot is currently in its very early stages. And like we both said, it doesn't really work well with Windows, which is also supposed to be supported in addition to Linux. For such a small OEM, it would be a lot.
I had no idea the keyboard ran on qmk, that makes this the definitive choice for when I get a new laptop soon as I have multiple keyboards with qmk and zmk now. Great video
Framework is brilliant, but it still needs third party support -- If the framework can become a hardware standard, we could have more choice for performance, price, and aesthetics. Sadly, right now, it seems like Framework has to do all that work themselves, which is only going to hurt them if other companies get together to make a shared standard.
I just made a video about their viability as a company, seriously impressive stuff. I dont think they will have problems with 3rd party support. The 16 is going to be a turning point for the company
What has me intrigued right now with the Framework AMD laptops¹ is that the 7x40U APUs apparently include a Xilinx *FPGA* that's being billed as an "AI core." I'm not sure what the state is of direct-access driver support, but I'd love to play around with that chip's capabilities. ¹Not that this is exclusive to Framework, but the modular nature lends to a lot more long-term potential for the SoC than you'd get from your typical "NUSPI" laptop
Sadly, AMD has not even started working on Linux support for the XDNA tensor cores. They had to ask on Github a few days ago if we wanted it. Even the Windows drivers contain a ton of proprietary blobs anyways. I of course hope the XDNA cores will eventually work on Linux, but I wouldn't count on it...
Great Video Nicco! I made a video on friday talking about the company and CEO. I think this company is so underrated right now from a design and engineering perspective. I enjoyed hearing your perspective...seems like we are on the same page. Im willing to spend a little more to fund a company that will overall be better for the world. Where are you from? Couldn't place your accent
ngl this is the most excited i've been for a laptop ever, the engineering is very smart and cool and seeing it come to fruition is exciting the tradeoffs might not make sense for the general consumer, but for me i dont care about the downgrades to allow the modularity
I was so stuck in the traditional mindset that I didn’t think to get the 16 without the dGPU for now and get it later when I had more money. That says plenty enough for me about the company for me to get the laptop.
When you bring up the upgradeability argument, you need to qualify it. Dave made a point that buying one of these and then upgrading the gpu is probably going to cost about the same as 2 other laptops anyway (which means everything will be fresh and new, not just the motherboard). The only way that buying this laptop makes sense is: 1) you wanna support the company b/c you like their mission (or the way they operate, the openness, the DIY build, cutting down on e waste, etc) and/or 2) You like some of the modular features in this machine
You can buy the currently available GPU for the Framework for the price of 550€. The same GPU for desktop can be bought separately for about 100€ less. It makes sense their version costs more tho 100€ is a bit too much of a difference but it's still nowhere close to the same price of "2 other laptops anyway" like you said. With the price of that GPU you can only get one laptop with no dedicated GPU, something you can't game as well as whatever dedicated GPU you would want to switch out from. So yes, upgrading a Framework would be way cheaper than buying a whole new laptop. Remember that gaming laptops can go around 2000€ casually, but the upgrade is _mere_ 550€.
I know my brother would love one. He uses everything for as long as they work so the repairability is great, he uses blender so the powerfulness and swappaple gpu are great, he would prefer to have the numpad on the left side (numpad controls the view in blender) and he would put at least 2 display outs into it.
I think the fingerprint reader is the only thing that has issues on Linux which is probably why it wasn’t included in the ChromeOS version. Interesting that other laptops do become more expensive when you make sure the parts are on par with the ones in Framework. If Framework gets a great 2nd hand market then that could be the way for people with less money to get one. There are more Linux dedicated laptop manufacturers (like they make a Linux distro for their laptops) but they dont offer the same repairability and upgradeability as Framework.
i can confirm that it "just works" on nixos as well - hope lockscreens will adapt one day so i dont have to press a key in order to be allowed to use the fingerprint... its a little more logical on macbooks.. but otherwise a nice feature
2:04 Wait, the Framework Laptop 16 is cooled by liquid metal!? I legitimately did not know that! While I think that's cool, the only thing I'm worried about is given the modularity of the laptop, how does Framework plan to keep the liquid metal from leaking and killing the mainboard?
I’ve seen that people are re-pasting their cpus on the FW 13, and I would expect the same level of serviceability from the FW 16, so if you are worried about that, then you can always use a different paste.
What sold me is a 10 key. I do tons of cad work and I need that number pad. But nice to be able to swap it out when not needed. I like to keep my laptops for 10 plus years. Framework will let me keep it operating well for that long or longer.
Before I see the rest of the vid: @Nicco the Louis Rossman Vid you show in the Intro was about the framework **13**, not 16. Slightly misleading to include it there.
I've run into problems with audio and wifi not working in Linux on laptops in the past, but not so much lately. My biggest problem recently was (and still is) a fingerprint sensor that doesn't work. I ordered my Framework 16 more for the modularity than the Linux support, but I definitely plan to install Linux on it.
My gut feeling for the laptop, before even watching this video, was “expensive but probably worth it.” Even so, the half-sized up and down arrow keys and USB-C charging from the side, giving up a port, kind of throw me off. But maybe there will be a touchpad module in the future where the touchpad surface is sunken into the palm rest a bit to keep one’s hands physically removed from the touchpad while typing. Manufacturers did their users no favors when they abandoned that convention.
About alternatives: what about Slimbook, Tuxedo and other Linux-first manufacturers? They sell some models below the €1000 if I remember correctly. I would also suggest getting one of those, also to give money to companies which contribute to Linux' growth
Neither of the names you mentioned have US ANSI keyboards at all, meaning they just lost a big chunk of the North American market. And while System76 & StarLabs does in fact ship with them, System76 has below average screens and specs while StarLabs has no dGPU options. Framework literally is my only option.
From what I see Tuxedo only offers NVIDIA GPU laptops which easily makes it a tough sell, because NVIDIA drivers suck on Linux and you’ll be stuck with X11 if you want a stable experience with GSync working. And that’s before getting to the painful experience of updating the system. That and them using their own in-house distro is questionable.
@@KingKrouch Their in-house distro is just Kubuntu with some improvements. For example, they have removed snap and take care of all the drivers and firmware for their hardware. So getting the Nvidia to work is not your problem (including Wayland). But you are not stuck with Kubuntu. There are several distros to choose from, or you can install something completely different. If it is Debian based, you can take advantage of Tuxedo's driver service Tomte. This is something Framework lacks. You have to do it yourself, just like on any other computer.
The pricepoint is a bit high, but I know the reason why. But the problem with buying is that you can't finance it. I don't have 2.400€ laying around sadly.
People who criticize Framework must be really stupid. Right to repair cost more to design and build. Also you make less money in the long run because your customers aren´t coming back to buy a new laptop when the battery die. So I would be OK with Framework charge you a heck of a lot more than they do. People need to use their brains more. Otherwise it risks being the same stupid argument from the netbook days. Apple killed the netbook with the much more expensive MacBook Air. Yes, expensive. But was it really? Apple in those days was usually CHEAPER than Dell etc if you got comparable hardware. And as a former Apple tech I can tell you about how 99.9% of all Air repairs was about physical damage. Do I like Apple? No I hate what they become, and I know a heck of a lot more horror stories about them from the older and better days. But the most cringe argument was the "Apple tax" in those days. It was just wrong. The pricing was what it was because Apple was simply not in the business of selling the cheapest crap. To be honest, you got an Air for less than what you pay for the exact same specs on a Dell, and the Mac was way better built. And how about this, The Airs and Minis from around 2012 is some of the best machines to run Linux on. My TV-computer has been Mac Mini´s wit Linux since forever. Ok, sorry for the "Apple rant". But anyone who criticize Framework should do the mental test of trying to understand why Apple wasn´t so bad (in particular scenarios) around 2012, instead of shouting "My Netbook is better!!!" which basically is what they do if they don´t use their brains properly. Also, laptops shouldn´t be classified by their "Linux compatibility". Running 100% supported on OpenBSD should be the standard. That´s why I´m still on Thinkpad T and X series machines, and some old Macs...
Apart from the 100% FreeBSD support claim, I agree with your comment. Most people won't use FreeBSD, even Windows haters like myself. (I might try it once I get my Framework Laptop 16, but Linux will 100% be my daily driver on it.)
@@cameronbosch1213 I said OpenBSD, not FreeBSD. FreeBSD even supports Nvidia. What I mean is that when something tests fully functioning on OpenBSD, you can be 110% sure it will work very well under Linux. The fact that Linux folks don't care at all about *BSD is saddening but also a fact.
@DoubleOhSilver Because ThinkPads aren't repairable anymore. Many have some or all of their RAM soldered to the motherboard, they have worse keyboards than before, and even the trackpoint buttons are getting worse on the Z series.
@@cameronbosch1213 They are kinda repairable. I would compare my T15 from 2020 to a 2012 and older MacBook Pro. But they are certainly not the same as they were in the older days. As with so many things in our brave new dystopian world.
People need to understand that a laptop's value doesn't only come from performance, but their features as well. Modularity is a feature worth paying premium for. This means you aren't tied down to whatever the laptop has.
Not now, but GPU for AI proposes maybe will be useful to intel does a external GPU for them, they have intel encoder/decoder AI accelerator. I own A770 currently performs better in linux than windows. If intel does it, will be awesome
I just want to talk about two very minor linux specific issues in the Framework 13 laptop I own. I still recommend it for Linux, but just wanted to clarify it's not perfect. 1. The screen brightness keys do not work out of the box. You have to disable a kernel module for the brightness sensor for the keys to work again. This is part of every linux tutorial framework offers, but it's still a nuisance. 2. The screen resolution to size ratio means that 1x scale is too small to read text, and 2x is way too large. For most people, you have to rely on fractional scaling to get an ideal reading experience. Some desktops (and some proprietary applications like Discord), handle fractional scaling very poorly and become blurry. Even if fractional scaling works for how you use Linux, the fact that there's fewer environments to choose from based on fractional scaling support, means it is inferior to other laptops whose resolution and size compliment non-fractional scaling.
Fractional scaling (even on Discord) looks okay on KDE for me, but Steam for some reason doesn’t detect the DPI scaling correctly so I had to make a custom script to launch Steam through and that adjusts the environment variable for forcing it each launch.
Fractional scaling is also a problem because the high resource usage and not many applications does work well with it. Instead what did work for me was using the native resolution but use text scaling (gnome), it did just work smooth and improved battery life A LOT like 2.5x
@@mancarvpoker the issue with that kind of method is that other elements won’t be resized and it will look strange with stuff like buttons. It also doesn’t affect stuff like web browsers, etc. At least with games that don’t handle it properly, I found that using gamescope with an internal resolution that’s the monitor resolution times the DPI scale and then downscaling that to my monitor resolution helped out a bit. Roblox is one of the few games on WINE that misbehave for me regarding the DPI scale. Alternatively, some installers (like certain repacks) with a fullscreen background element are bugged out on KDE, and I have to use gamescope for those too.
I wish the modular upgrade slot was more modular and that the laptop didn't need to be opened to swap. I'd love to have a battery and GPU module and choose battery or performance based on my needs.
Remember: **Syntax is your wand**, indentation your incantation. And when the sun peeks over the horizon, casting shadows upon your keyboard, you'll know-you've danced with caffeine's muse. May your code compile swiftly, your loops be infinite (but not too infinite), and your dreams be caffeinated! ☕🌙✨
Oh, might as well air some greviances here; it is _entirely indefensible_ how Framework hadn't streamlined their expansion card production by deprecating as many of the single-function expansion card options they can in favour for multi-function cards. No reason why we can't have _both_ a USB-A port _and_ four-pole audio, or _dual_ USB-C, or mini-HDMI _and_ three-pole line out. What's stopping them, aside from the slightly more expensive proposition of specific-purpose USB hubs?
nicco, you do very well considering english is not your native language. does framework have a integrated dvd-drive option? that is one thing which is sadly missing on all new laptops.
Framework is making good laptops "right now", fair, but it is uncertain whether the company is going to exist years into the future to ensure their mandate of upgradeability and repairability. Meaning if the gamble to purchase a Framework doesn't pay off and Framework does go out of business, a couple years from now, a dead Frameworks 16 is just as dead as a Thinkpad!!! On an untested brand, I don't know if that is a gamble I would make!
@@AzarilhI mean, if we were talking about HP or Dell that were selling the same product with all the expansion and upgrade modules, I wouldn't be so skeptical. Those are brands/companies that have existed for a very long time so I trust that they aren't going anywhere. Same can't be said of Frameworks.
Nice video! I purchased an Asus full AMD just because it has Linux support. Not from Asus, but from the community pushing the limits. I wish i could afford a Framework one but delivery times was not possible because of my travel schedule.
This video misses the entire point of a framework laptop. The design is standardized and functional to maintain compatibilty between generations of upgrades and repairs. If something gets damaged, or worn out, it can be easily replaced many years down the line so you dont have to go out and buy a whole new computer, saving you money over time. Consumers need to vote with their wallets and if we want repairable devices to succeed we have to pay the price and show that its what we want. I dont even own a framework laptop, but i can promise you that when ever my current machine dies and costs too much to repair, i will be getting one. EVERYONE should Consider a framework, and of course it wont be right for all, but to say its a bad laptop is such a shame.
Man, here in Canuckastan, Base Do-It-Yourself = $1899. Yikes. Going 'mid-tier' with the lower AMD, supplying my own RAM, no GPU, no OS, 2 USB, 1 USB A, Ethernet, HDMI, Audio, 2 gray spacers, 1 num-pad, it starts getting 'rapey' after Canada's bullshit taxes: (5% GST, 8% Provincial). I'm basically looking at the better part of 3 grand. Hmmmm, i dunno...Suddenly I feel like robbing a bank
I love Lenovo laptops. Good cooling, good keyboards, good price performance ratio. But the one thing that always bothered me about modern laptops is that the only thing I can replace, is a HDD/SSD, RAM and wifi if something breaks or I need to add. Which is much better than a glued and soldered laptop. But I do care about my laptop. I work on it, and I relax playing games or just browsing the internet on it. So my laptop looks much how it did, when I bought it four years ago. And it is a shame to be not able to just swap the mainboard and CPU, or just the dGPU. Or a broken keyboard. So I am inclined to buy the FW 16 just to be able to do this. Even for that price. Always built my desktops and love the modularity. Just being able to only swap what I need.
My Lenovo Legion with an i7-12700H, a 3070TI, 2TB NVMe and 32GB RAM came ~900€ shipped. The hardware is pretty well supported on Linux and it is overall a good machine. I would still call the frameworks overpriced, sorry. I could literally buy a second and third one to replace it for the price and that's with worse IO and DIY.
@@mancarvpoker Switzerland. But it was a really good deal, so it might be an unfair comparison. But 1000-1200€ is a realistic price, if you are patient and look for deals. On the other hand, prices increased a lot since I buyed my machine. Nonetheless, you can find good deals with a comparable performance to the Framework 16 for around half the price. It is just overpriced.
@@5Hydroxytryptophan dude it was the best deal ever haha I'm agree with that you can find better deals but also you can find worse or similar deals but framework offers something really valuable
@@mancarvpoker Yeah.. it really was. :) But I don't think Framework has anything special to offer if you consider that I have more IO than I could ever plug in to the FW. My machine also has a Numpad and 300W charging. Only one thing bothers me.. HDMI 2.0 and no DisplayPort. And maybe the missing SD reader. Sure, it is less individual, but I never had any problem fixing Laptops whatsoever. But I'm a tinkerer.. so repairability might be a bonus to some people. But then again: If I buy two machines with similar performance and one breaks, I still have a second working machine for the same budget and it can be used for other things in the meanwhile. Nonetheless it's a good idea, which itself isn't that new tbh. But at least they do good marketing and really try to establish it. I hope they fix their pricing asap, but the modularity comes with a more complex manufacturing. So we shouldn't hold out breath.
Actually, you can get the Framework 16" without a dGPU (but still add one later of course). In the laptop configuration, you can choose the "Expansion Bay Shell" instead of the "Graphics Module". And the Laptop will be a tiny bit shorter and slimmer without the dGPU.
Eh, I have an old ASUS gaming laptop that is still going. It's old enough that Windows 11 would refuse to install. Can it play the latest games? No. Is it fine for everything else? Yeah. I'm sure some gaming laptops have problems, but I think Nicco is exaggerating the problems with dGPUs, and frankly I prefer them. Just be aware that they do need good airflow, so don't buy that slim-looking model.
WOW ! I just learned from your video about the AMD Rz 616 wifi 6E chipset. Did not know they did this. Two heavy underdogs, AMD + Mediatek ready to take over !!
You obviously haven't seen Dave2d's video about the same laptop. He praises it and he knows what he is talking about. Maybe Apple's laptops are overpriced???????? Apple gadgets in general???? Can you repair or upgrade Apple products???? What does the new Apple Watch cost? Is it overpriced? If I could buy a Framework 16 Laptop in Denmark, it would be my first choice oveer any other laptop.
Yea every video he does on the framework has a different outcome. Like in his last one he's working with a pre-production and kept talking about the finish and feel at the end
@niccoloveslinux 0:37 is disingenuous. If you'd watched the LTT video, you'd realise the title was clickbait as he wished he'd invested more! Also Rossman video is about the FW13.
The _No CUDA_ problem is resolved the moment you slap a GPU in the back of it using the Dell-made semi-proprietary reverse-engineered open re-release of a rear-facing external MXM-style attachment it has with NVidia hardware. Gives your laptop a chunky ass, but some people are into that. 😏
I think the cheapest gaming laptop you can get these days is the Acer nitro 5, some people call it an entry level gaming laptop and also in the past it is the gaming laptop that can support linux since it has an rx 560X dGPU. Nowadays MSI Alpha and Bravo are now the best gaming laptop that can support linux since it is an all AMD gaming laptop. Also in the past the Mediatek MT922 (a.k.a AMD rz 616) had a lot issues though I think it is now fixed.....
It is possible to upgrade a Framework 13 from AMD to Intel so I am sure there will be an Intel board at some point. Maybe an Intel GPU will be made as well.
That thing uses 175 watts by itself. I think the current Framework Laptop 16 can only go up to 240 watt USB-C chargers, and that's for the whole system. I also don't think 240 watt USB-C PD 3.1 chargers exist atm. Even then, you'd have less performance for the CPU as the GPU would take almost all of the power budget unless they used a different power connector, which I have no idea if they would do it. I think they're waiting for a 7900S.
@@cameronbosch1213 THey're still happily using older proprietary chargers. Lenovo have been using the old slim tip one for 10+ years. Give them a couple of years and product cycles they'll likely transition over over. Made sense for Framework as they had a clean sheet start.
This laptop seems super cool, but i already have the 13, and dont need that kind of performance from a laptop. Very cool product though and wish i could support
What framework doing is quite interesting but to most users if not all, a ram upgrade and storage upgrade is all we need with repairability. How often do people upgrade their processor even on desktop? Right to repair is important but this laptop is just being fancy for the sake of being fancy.
I’d be interested in buying a Framework laptop as my next laptop (once I’m done with this AMD Alienware laptop of mine) when they give an option of black or dark grey casing (instead of white) and a MX Red mechanical keyboard like my current laptop. That and a numberpad option that has the same key switches and lighting, because the current options for numberpads are kind of tacky looking compared to the current RGB keyboard option. I’m hoping by the time that happens, that Thunderbolt 5/USB 5 is available, as I’d like a singular setup with an eGPU while still having decent performance if I bring it somewhere to get work done, and from what I tried with my current laptop, an USB 4 eGPU runs 30% of what the dedicated GPU does. There’s an early adopter tax, but I’d be willing to pay that tax if that means that they can keep making modular and upgradable laptops that forces other laptop manufacturers to improve. You can buy similarly spec’d gaming laptops (Ryzen 9, 32GB RAM, dGPU) for cheaper, but they come with cheap NVMEs and you can’t upgrade or repair them nearly as easily.
It costs 1600£ in the uk so i think i will pass the motherboards are priced more than some full laptops it may be good for the earth and good for framework but it aint for your walle
i looked at one of these a few weeks ago and spec for spec i settled on a System76 Adder WS with 13900hx and 4060 for 1800 usd and am very satisfied with my choice. I just don't think the value proposition is there yet for framework. less performant with higher dollar entry
I was about to switch from a Mac to this computer.. The cost was a little high but future upgrade capability was very attractive. I wanted the AMD chip. But...there are many people on the forums having problems with this chip in this computer and the company is not owning up to it. In fact, they are avoiding the issue. Lost my trust....bigger problems on the horizon....I bought another Mac.
1. What issues with AMD? 2. Apple is the last company one should trust. They make their stuff hard to repair on purpose and limit their cooling as well for some reason as well as doing many anti-consumer stuff, i don't see how Apple can be a more trust worthy company than Framework and honestly than a lot of other companies even with some trust issues you might have with them. Apple is so bad it's hard to beat in their untrustworthiness.
About alternatives... Older thinkpads are often found for a great price on sites like Ebay, usually either used or refurbished. I bought refurbished (perfect condition, from what I can see) X13 Gen 2 (Amd) for 280 bucks, and while it only has 8 gigs of RAM, it's still a steal IMO. 16 gigs configurations are usually about 450-500 bucks nowadays, and a newer Gen 3 is not that much more expensive. I saw Z13 with 6850U/16/512 with a touchscreen for 550 USD, for example. Same goes for T14(s) and other models
I have one criticism for Framework: payment options I wanted to buy one, proceed to the checkout, and notice that there isn't a single one I can use... Nor do I know a person, who could use one of the payment options. And considering how expensive credit cards are, I don't want to buy one just for one purchase.
Could make a forum post, as that may increase priorities for the business team to expand upon payment options. Their own support there is pretty active and seems like they communicate pretty directly with the other groups in the company.
I'll just patiently wait until it trickles down to us poor people, like when there will be ones on the used market (which will be hard) or some heavy price cuts to current parts when newer ones arrive. Already 'upgraded' to a used legion 5i (2060 version) a year ago to be a mobile vr setup (yes I was aiming for barely above minimum specs) and has been serving me well, the only bad thing I can say is that I still can't use wayland, besides that nothing in terms of weird proprietary firmware stuff
Only problem is the ridiculously expensive price for parts. DGPU is 400 $ keyboard is 80 $ without numpad(wtf; well for the NKRO feature, it's understandable) spacer are 10 $ each. Screen can't be exchanged with a FHD(1920x1080) less expensive variant. You're stuck with 2.5K resolution. each port is about 9 $ No HDD ports, works only with SSDs. Base price is above 1600 $ and you don't even know why. Because some things are hidden.
The GPU is 450€ when customising the laptop, 550€ when bought individually ( with taxes ). The same GPU but for desktop can be bought for about 450€, so i don't really see the scandal about its pricing.
@@Azarilh The scandal is that there's not enough options for customization. There are no options to downgrade the PC in favor of something still powerful but just mid tier instead of high tier. That's the problem.
@niccoloveslinux You better put it on me. They say on their website that their laptops work with Linux but they waste no time installing it.... The entire Linux community applauds them and advertises them, but they only take that fame and do not distribute benefits.
The problem with your argumentation is one of their goals. To produce e waste. But to reduce waste, you have to make something like this mainstream. To make it mainstream, you have to make it affordable. You see the problem, when you make something 2x the cost of a laptop with comparable performance? But I hope in time the price will go down. Now it is only for enthusiasts, with the right cash. It is a good laptop and a great idea which I love. The design is a matter of taste. I like the simple non intrusive design. Personally I use my laptop for work and some gaming. But paying 2500€ for something, that I can buy for 1800€ max is a no go. And when you look at the price of a motherboard which is 850€+ (and 200€ plus for a 100MHz upgrade...smells like Apple scam) and a GPU that is 559€...than the upgradability just stops making any sense, because you get really near the price of a new laptop. Which sucks. May be in a year or two it will be more affordable and more in line with the FW13 price performance ratio. Than I will get one.
It's working, Dell started doing something similar to Framework. Would not be surprised to see more companies in the future following the lead, eventually becoming the norm. At that point it would ebcome cheaper to make laptops like this. Unfortunately it takes time and a lot of money to start something like this, people that have money need to care to make it more popular and therefore more affordable.
My Biggest complaint is that the Framework 16 is AMD only as AMD is not the most Linux-friendly company. Beyond AMDGPU they don't really contribute much to Linux as seen recently that their AI accelerator doesn't have a Linux driver at all currently. Not to mention ROCm is a freaking joke and I doubt the GPU you can get with this laptop is supported. I would have loved to see a Team Blue option given Intel now has their Arc graphics lineup. Plus Intel is much friendlier towards the Linux community, Quicksync is much much much better than AMF, and their Arc GPUs can actually do GPGPU things as there is proper support and documentation. Lacking Intel options is a major major dealbreaker, and unfortunately places this model firmly in the "will not buy" category for me. I think I will stick with my current Framework for the moment.
> _Beyond AMDGPU_ That carveout is doing some heavy lifting-all except the very newest AMD GPUs and APUs work seamlessly in Linux out of the box, assuming your kernel isn't ancient, thanks to the contributions that AMD makes to MESA _in advance_ of their product releases. The AI cores *might* work with existing Xilinx drivers (I don't have one, so I can't test)-what the community is upset about is that their AI _SDK_ is Windows-only right now. Intel ARC is, by all reports, an even more abysmal experience on Linux than it is Windows, but I forgive them for first-generation teething pains. ROCm not being the GPGPU beast that CUDA is for Nvidia-that's fair, but also just speaks to company priorities.
@@kuhluhOG Could have fooled me. KDE Wayland works just fine and as long as you're not trying to run a DX12 game you won't have any issues, and again Arc is going to be the superior option for literally every other GPU-related task as AMD just doesn't do any of that well. I have not even tried the Xe driver yet, and I don't intend to as I simply played around with the card before dropping it into my homelab.
@@GSBarlev Like I said, AMDGPU is great for AMD to contribute, but *_outside of AMDGPU AMD's Linux support is utterly abysmal_* and even then let's not pretend that AMDGPU was always the land of milk and honey. I remember the long and rocky process of that driver being upstreamed. Even as you conceded AMD isn't doing well on the newest hardware out of the box whereas that just doesn't happen with intel and even Nvidia. Nvidia has almost always had a Linux driver out for newest cards and Arc is the only example I can remember where Intel didn't have their hardware working OOB on Linux at release. AMD really does not seem to care about Linux, they just have that one virtue signal in the form of AMDGPU. If they really cared then Ryzen AI would at least have an experimental driver out for Linux. You know, Linux, the number one platform for AI workloads. The fact that you have to rely on a _maybe_ bolsters my point rather well. Also, Arc worked just fine for me for the few days I plopped it into my gaming rig out of curiosity (it was intended to replace the 1070s in my homelab). Sure, we don't have the Xe driver yet, but I found no complaints outside of DX12 games not working.
@@antikommunistischaktion AMD *do* have AI drivers. For their dedicated Instinct cards. Which is what researchers *actually use* to run AI workloads. I don't really blame them for not prioritizing support for _embedded mobile_ AI cores (though, again, it's my understanding that low-level access *is* already in the kernel, what's missing is the SDK, which appears to have been developed -in collaboration with- by Microsol). As for zero-day support-I don't concede the point as much as profess ignorance, as I generally don't buy current-gen hardware. The exception was a GPD Win4 6800U, which worked perfectly on a rolling release distro out of the box, save for needing to add a Ryzen SMU kernel module for fine-grained power management.
The biggest problem with laptops is that you’re stuck with the configuration and can’t repair anything that breaks. Framework gives you a machine that solves all these problems and idiots complain about the price 😡
Framework is literally one of the few laptops going AMD Advantage this year, so that immediately makes them stand out, especially given that it's the only laptop with an AMD dGPU that is meant to run Linux just as well as or better than Windows. That is literally why i bought this laptop; not having to deal with the company Linus Torvalds himself called "the single worse company [the Linux community] has ever dealt with" and publicly flipping off is a massive win for Linux users that may have not been able to get a dGPU laptop before.
I'm so glad that we have more Linux hardware laptops to choose from! (The major OEMs seem to be moving away from Linux, which pisses me off.)
Alienware’s AMD advantage laptops also work decently with Linux, but you sadly can’t adjust the RGB lighting, and they make passing through the device to a Windows VM painful.
Sadly you are then dealing with Dell.
@@KingKrouchMy keyboard has software that's only available on Windows, but you can fully adjust the RGB completely without it, and that's awesome. It'll even work if you plug it into a playstation.
Dell is offering the XPS 15 series with Intel Arc dGPU as an option. Well, DX12 still seems to be a pain but, if you intend to use you your GPU professionally that is to say, with OpenGL and OpenCL then, you're about to get a pretty devent performance on Linux while you have an absolutely flawless user experience which seems to be even better than with AMD unless your distro finally either switches to rusticl or gets offiacial support for amdgpu-pro.
For example, I've an HP ZBook with integrated RDNA3 GPU. It's almost a wonderful device for an Ubuntu user like me with a very good match of performance and enegry effienccy. But, sometimes I wihed I'd bought an Intel device. It's because it's literally impossible to get a working OpenCL environmet on Ubuntu. Latest Ubuntu 23.10 still utilises fucking Clover OpenCL that is shit. AMDGPU-PRO doesn't support 23.10 officially and my try to get it work implied 17 error messages. Of course, 22.04 isn't a feasible option on this hardware. Even if I get a new kernel, mesa would still be to old. Ans besides, I need wayland to get my monitor setup working properly and Wayland on Kubuntu 23.10 (Plasma) was a pain too. So, I have to wait for 24.04.
they keep measuring it without factoring sustainability and repairability. Something that turns into a piece of garbage in a month or a year can win that contest. Short term design can win in Short term thinking paradigm.
Exactly. Trying to get parts for a laptop that hasn't been sold for a few years is next to impossible. Imagine just fixing the part rather than needing to buy a whole new laptop...
Also, I haven't really felt excited about any laptop this year apart from this one; maybe that's because OEMs don't get the market anymore...
Precisely this - people compare the costs but are so used to living in a disposable world that they don't even consider repair costs. My xps USB c port cost $100+ to replace because it's soldered to the main board and I needed to find a shop willing to do the manual labor. Even then they really didn't want to do it and made me find a donor board on my own. It would have saved me so much money if I could have just replaced a module. The hinge on some laptops is integrated into the chassis. You're just supposed to toss the whole thing if it breaks. I strongly believe that if you use your electronics for a long time, a framework will come out ahead in cost.
Yup. A FW might cost you $2000 today but, two years from now, a CPU upgrade will cost you $500.
Idk, it's alittle hyperbolic to say a month or year of use for the other laptops. The other aspect is laptop repair is quite the business and if your laptop got damaged or its GPU had an issue, you can get that repaired in most cases.
The real somewhat winner is the upgradeability, but I'm not entirely sure how far we can take that. If this was a computer that I could upgrade to the latest and greatest, then yeah, a winner.
For this product to really make sense, they need to be able to upgrade to the tip top of graphics and CPU for at least two generations. I wish for them success but they probably need more funding.
agree with the hyperboli (not counting the 200usd disposable laptops).
Even if we can agree to 5-10 year paradigm it would be a step to the right direction.
To be honest, I was sold as soon as I saw that the keyboard can be removed and replaced.
If you can change pieces, then it cannot be overpriced, you're going to save money. Not being able to replace pieces safely is how I was forced into changing laptops 3 times in the past 7 years.
One of the reasons i used to buy Mac airs was how easy it was to replace parts, with the newer Mac airs that's not possible. Now I've changed to Lenovo X1 Carbon's running linux. The Framework laptops look interesting and I'm seriously looking at getting one.
I think "you're going to save money" is probably not the most accurate statement? It's not false though... It's just that you can do maintenance on it a bit like you would a car. You can do maintenance easily, replace parts that worn out, upgrade parts if you feel like it... all of that until your chassis cannot hold on anymore. It's not a money saver compared to other options, it has a cost of owner ship. Though I agree with you that this cost of ownership is likely to be lower than changing laptops over the same period of ownership.
@@shijikoribut you can replace the chassis too, they sell both parts of it. It's more repairable then a car and the customizability also allows for the user to put higher quality parts into it as well.
@@damianateiroDo you _need_ something 2 or 3 times more powerful ?
I'm sure there might be use-cases where something that powerful is needed. Maybe for 3D rendering ? I don't know.
My current laptop is worth 900€. I can get pretty much the same thing with Framework at 1825€. Except I won't have to buy the same laptop again in two years (this one already has some hardware issues ranging from hard to impossible to fix, after just one year of use).
I don't know... seems like a good deal to me. It is expensive, but dead laptops are piling up in my home, and I would much rather be able to easily change broken parts than having to buy a new laptop everytime. Plus, I already have a lot of spares hanging around, so I might not even have to buy the full thing.
Exactly, I have a keyboard with a minor fault, and due to the yoga build I would need to replace the whole top panel with the keyboard and the track pad... maddening
My next laptop is going to be a framework something. I dont care if Apples m-series laptops can whoop its ass. I dont care that if it *IS* more expensive for the same hardware than competing products. Never again, do I want to open my laptop case and think "ah shit, here we go again".
Good for you! We need more people with this attitude and less getting blown away by laptop appliances.
@@tonytinza I am saying the M1 and friends are blisteringly fast CPUs. That is undeniable. I am also saying that I own a macbook, an intel one, and.... well..... I have my reasons.
Reason 1: repairability.
This macbook has been completely useless for weeks to months at a time. There are no independent repair shops near me, and apple brand repair sucks, so I have to do it myself. It is an unmitigated pain in the ass. I've been borrowing someone else's old HP laptop for the past 4 ish months because of screen issues. Finally fixed it last week, but I should not have to borrow a Horrible-Product of all things for months. In the future it will simply not be an option.
2: Software.
MacOS has such bad software support it's pretty much mandatory to install another OS for anything but browsing and typing documents. The m1 can't run windows. At all. Furthermore, the bootcamp drivers are absolute garbage and I suspect they're intentionally slow. Furthermore, Windows drives me insane every time I use it. Thus, Linux. Linux on a macbook is... one of the experiences of all time. I can finally do stuff! Yay! freedom from the four buttons of customization at last! time to close it... oh look, the sleep doesnt work at all. I have heard legends, that in the far corners of the internet, there exists a solution. I cannot confirm or deny them, but I have simply turned sleep off entirely. Oh, and if your favorite distro isnt on the list of community ISOs? Yeah... you are NOT going to have a fun time.
Lets compare this with Framework.
Newer ones come with AMD stuff, and AMD is both really good hardware and the linux drivers, unlike the windows ones, are actually really good.
Both linux and windows support out of the box, and a little tinkering could probably get BSD working too.
Screws are color coded normal screws instead of Apples proprietary pentalobe BS
nothing is soldered that doesn't absolutely have to be
Screen broke? no problem. it was DESIGNED to be repairable. Just fix it. boom, done.
Framework has a schematics and documentation available, so you KNOW whats wrong, not guessing.
@@tonytinza But it isn't better. That's the point. Anything can have some metrics that someone finds nice whether it's power consumption or benchmark, but if it doesn't actually provide the value a consumer is looking for, it's an inferior product. That's why i'm never buying Apple hardware, because it just doesn't have value to me for all the bs i'd have to deal with.
@@tonytinza Nobody was talking to you either, ass. Why would anyone purchase something that has no value to them? Read what they're saying first. Plus, Apple is still not cheaper. It's just two different products that offer different things.
@@tonytinzaNobody was talking to you either before @Nina-cd2eh . Two metrics are not enought to define the entirety of a product or any object. It is healthy to acknowledge the positives of multiple things and then assessing which one you value more and then to act on that assessment.
Framework laptops are the only new laptop I would consider
Framework gifting that laptop to KDE was a 3D chess move (apart from just being nice and supportive).
I'm glad that my company decided to buy the 13 inch Framework Notebooks for us instead of lenovo notebooks.
It's way easier for our administration to repair them if something isn't working instead of just replacing them and we allways have some parts here that can be used.
So glad to hear these comments. Hope these become widely spread for companies
Wasn't aware of any kind of "controversy" around Framework 16. It's my personal dream laptop. If I didn't already have a pretty good one, this would be an instant buy for me. By the way, one reason typing seems somewhat weak on the Framework 16 is apparently that the keyboard is a bit flimsy (the metal plate holding it being very thin and bending easily on pressure). It can very easily be remedied by putting one or two thermal pads under it, supporting the keyboard from below and eliminating any wobble.
Framework are amazing, especially in the long run.
I'm saving up for a 16" version.
This is an excellent style of presentation. Obviously English is not the man's first language but he uses a good pace and covers things with captions for points of reference. This invites us to view other products and websites.
My work is in state education acquisition and we have to project some years ahead. Dissatisfaction with Microsoft's Windows 11 and general attitude to keeping their word has made us consider different systems and products for school and university use. Mac is one way to go but non-repairability without return to base haggling has no place in state education and health consistency, which many north west European and Commonwealth countries have.
Being able to run Windows in Home edition for lower years education has some advantages but as young people progress in IT Linux is emerging as more than a contender. Windows could easily be replaced by a new OS similar to it, possibly from the far east. Our technical staff are looking at these and have tested Framework products too.
With state-based orders to a list of present and future requirements, Framework could easily become the new standard stock brand.
While totally in favor of the Framework products, I'm running Fedora on Lenovo IdeaPad 5 Pro (16" 2.5K, Ryzen 7 7840HS) and I'm quite happy with how it works. My only complaint is the soldered-in memory (32 GB 6400 MT/s). But the price (1040 USD) was hard to beat, and, besides, Framework laptops are almost unobtainable in my country.
Same here, I'm very happy how Nobora supports Lenovos AMD models. I'm just a little sad that I didn't wait and save up for a Framework, just because they're so cleverly designed and built for longevity.
The problem with Lenovo is, that the laptops are designed by people who think that connecting the hinge and display housing with 4 mini screws (Philips 00 mini) in brass inserts into plastic at a radius of just a centimeter is fine. (This quite obviously was not fine for my IdeaPad flex 5 14alc05)
The worst aspect of framework laptops is that I can’t buy one in Finland.
Honestly I do not care about gpu. I’m able to do everything 3d intensive I need on my desktop. The fact that you can still get a high end cpu without dedicated gpu and without windows tax is great. For framework pricing that’s 600$ of savings. Also it supports 64gb ram, which isn’t unique but in combination of the other aspects, especially the optional gpu, that’s a rare one.
I needed to get a laptop for linux cluster virtualization, so a dgpu with potential reliability problems is a strong negative aspect. So I needed the best cpu and at least 64gb of ram. I ended up compromising on the cpu since higher end models all come bundled with dgpu. Yes there would’ve been ”ideal” models, for example from Lenovo but again, the challenge was to find a distributor who had that model available.
That LTT video was about how it's risky to invest money like that in startups. It wasn't at all a negative video. It was just a clickbait title to get people to watch it and obviously he also doesn't want to tell his audience to make house price level investments in risky businesses that might fail. He's still a massive fan of the product as is only right. I expect the right to repair guy just has recommendations about how they could improve the design going forward, which I'm sure if they're good/viable they'll use. Elevated systems released yet another video about their (really cool) home made case for the Framework board that looks quite like a Fractal Design Terra or North (I mean, on a dark night at a distance it's not a copy but it has wood). I don't honestly think there's any controversy about the Framework at all.
I suspect anyone genuinely whining is a bit of a muppet who doesn't quite understand the concept. Obviously it's 'expensive' because it's a small company and you're having to pay a premium. For features you literally can't get elsewhere so....
The closest thing to being a controversial laptop for me; in being somewhat disappointing, is that it does not use coreboot, that's it. Do I wish it could be cheaper, sure, but its still probably better value in the long run than a cheaper laptop (not just in terms of what you don't have to buy later, but also in what industry trends you sponsor). When I eventually find a reason to replace my 2019 xps 13 (and yes I got the 2-in-1 assuming that the camera would be supported because it is on the non convertible version and felt very cheated), it will be a framework, tuxedo or starlabs (or maybe sys76).
Speaking about that Dell XPS 2 in 1, I'm pretty sure it has *zero* repairability or upgradability. Those are dealbreakers for me. I don't care how much a laptop costs; give me a replaceable SSD or go away; you'll never get my recommendation!
As for laptops running Linux natively, only StarLabs and Framework are worth it to me. System76 still has no 16 : 10 screen options except for a 1920 x 1200 option pared with up to an RTX 4070; a waste for that GPU and their only laptop with an RTX 4080 or 4090 has a 16 : 9 4K screen, which is not only cramped for vertical worm, but also overkill for even an RTX 4090 and likely going to kill battery life.
Tuxedo lacks ANSI keyboard layouts on their newest laptops; that's enough for me not to buy them because I've tried ISO keyboards, and I hated them. They also refuse (to this day) to give us modern laptops with ANSI; they're throwing away the entire ANSI keyboard market by not offering it as even a special option. I know it increases cost, but if they want more people to buy them, they're going to have to offer these keyboards sooner rather than later.
The one problem with StarLabs (for me) is that they have no laptops with a dGPU. I edit videos and play PC games on Steam, and while the 780M in the AMD Ryzen StarFighter is pretty good for light gaming, it falls apart for any tougher games above low settings at 1080p and video editing is pretty much a no go without a dGPU.
I do like how they and Framework use custom designs instead of Tongfang or Clevo rebrands, which obviously increases costs but guarantees everything works on Linux, because that's the main OS supported by StarLabs and Framework also has official support for Linux.
As for coreboot, I think why they don't use it is because I think coreboot doesn't work well with Windows, and Windows 11 is a supported OS on these laptops, so...
@@cameronbosch1213 I had a dell inspiron before which lasted me for years, and had a single screw bottom cover for very easy access inside, so I thought going for a dell laptop with official ubuntu support (which I didn't realise didn't apply to the 2-in-1 variant) might be a good idea, and in 2019, most laptops from smaller companies were clevo based I think, and very chunky, and part of the point was to get something a little more professional looking. That inspiron though, i7 6th gen and 970gtx for like 600 quid, it was a great deal. Luckily there's some very nice looking laptops now from tuxedo, etc.
The 16inch framework is tempting because I would love a custom split keyboard, with two ortholinear clusters...
Framework is designed to be repairable, they've made no claims about using open source stuff like Coreboot. That's the tinfoil hat wearing brigade projecting. Plus most are sold with Windows which Coreboot doesn't play that well with.
Even if they did, that'd be a whole ton of work for something bleeding edge like the new AMD platform for such a small team.
@@johnroberts2905 Actually AMD's initiative, OpenSIL might be the thing that boosts coreboot. And its not just "the tinfoil brigade". Ironically I think tencent were looking into it for their datacenters, because I guess they were cautious of potential western backdoors.
Its not just about knowing what software in on the hardware that you bought though, its also in case you want to be able to modify it yourself, plenty of people don't want to, but still, why shouldn't I be able to mod it if I want to? Modifiability is similar to self-repair in that DIY spirit. Not wanting to be at the behest of the vendor, giving them unfair leverage is just pragmatic and pro competition (otherwise if people exploit their privileged position, they need not innovate).
@@johnroberts2905 Exactly. AMD coreboot is currently in its very early stages. And like we both said, it doesn't really work well with Windows, which is also supposed to be supported in addition to Linux. For such a small OEM, it would be a lot.
I had no idea the keyboard ran on qmk, that makes this the definitive choice for when I get a new laptop soon as I have multiple keyboards with qmk and zmk now. Great video
Framework is brilliant, but it still needs third party support -- If the framework can become a hardware standard, we could have more choice for performance, price, and aesthetics. Sadly, right now, it seems like Framework has to do all that work themselves, which is only going to hurt them if other companies get together to make a shared standard.
I just made a video about their viability as a company, seriously impressive stuff. I dont think they will have problems with 3rd party support. The 16 is going to be a turning point for the company
Yes, it's "cuda", like "barracuda".
What has me intrigued right now with the Framework AMD laptops¹ is that the 7x40U APUs apparently include a Xilinx *FPGA* that's being billed as an "AI core." I'm not sure what the state is of direct-access driver support, but I'd love to play around with that chip's capabilities.
¹Not that this is exclusive to Framework, but the modular nature lends to a lot more long-term potential for the SoC than you'd get from your typical "NUSPI" laptop
Sadly, AMD has not even started working on Linux support for the XDNA tensor cores. They had to ask on Github a few days ago if we wanted it. Even the Windows drivers contain a ton of proprietary blobs anyways. I of course hope the XDNA cores will eventually work on Linux, but I wouldn't count on it...
@@chic_luke That was for the AI SDK (which was developed by or in partnership with Microsol), not the low-level FPGA drivers.
But a Linus on 0:36 is not a criticism, it's a click bait.
🤣ikr... he really got me that time...
Linus and clickbait. Name a more iconic duo.
Great Video Nicco! I made a video on friday talking about the company and CEO. I think this company is so underrated right now from a design and engineering perspective. I enjoyed hearing your perspective...seems like we are on the same page. Im willing to spend a little more to fund a company that will overall be better for the world. Where are you from? Couldn't place your accent
I'm from Italy!
Controversial? Does it track my sexual life, like my car? 😱 😂
Ahahahah
No but they have apps for that
ngl this is the most excited i've been for a laptop ever, the engineering is very smart and cool and seeing it come to fruition is exciting
the tradeoffs might not make sense for the general consumer, but for me i dont care about the downgrades to allow the modularity
I was so stuck in the traditional mindset that I didn’t think to get the 16 without the dGPU for now and get it later when I had more money. That says plenty enough for me about the company for me to get the laptop.
The 780m igpu is good too, should hold you over for a while
on the FW13, whenever newer modules came out, the old ones dropped in price as well. That can easily happen with the dGPU on the FW16
You should be able to modify your order by contacting support.
When you bring up the upgradeability argument, you need to qualify it. Dave made a point that buying one of these and then upgrading the gpu is probably going to cost about the same as 2 other laptops anyway (which means everything will be fresh and new, not just the motherboard).
The only way that buying this laptop makes sense is:
1) you wanna support the company b/c you like their mission (or the way they operate, the openness, the DIY build, cutting down on e waste, etc)
and/or
2) You like some of the modular features in this machine
You can buy the currently available GPU for the Framework for the price of 550€. The same GPU for desktop can be bought separately for about 100€ less. It makes sense their version costs more tho 100€ is a bit too much of a difference but it's still nowhere close to the same price of "2 other laptops anyway" like you said. With the price of that GPU you can only get one laptop with no dedicated GPU, something you can't game as well as whatever dedicated GPU you would want to switch out from.
So yes, upgrading a Framework would be way cheaper than buying a whole new laptop. Remember that gaming laptops can go around 2000€ casually, but the upgrade is _mere_ 550€.
I know my brother would love one. He uses everything for as long as they work so the repairability is great, he uses blender so the powerfulness and swappaple gpu are great, he would prefer to have the numpad on the left side (numpad controls the view in blender) and he would put at least 2 display outs into it.
I think the fingerprint reader is the only thing that has issues on Linux which is probably why it wasn’t included in the ChromeOS version.
Interesting that other laptops do become more expensive when you make sure the parts are on par with the ones in Framework.
If Framework gets a great 2nd hand market then that could be the way for people with less money to get one.
There are more Linux dedicated laptop manufacturers (like they make a Linux distro for their laptops) but they dont offer the same repairability and upgradeability as Framework.
Which issues? I have used Fedora and pop os and works great, but in pop os I had to install a package to work
@@mancarvpoker possible it was an issue but it has now been fixed with that package.
i can confirm that it "just works" on nixos as well - hope lockscreens will adapt one day so i dont have to press a key in order to be allowed to use the fingerprint... its a little more logical on macbooks.. but otherwise a nice feature
2:04 Wait, the Framework Laptop 16 is cooled by liquid metal!? I legitimately did not know that! While I think that's cool, the only thing I'm worried about is given the modularity of the laptop, how does Framework plan to keep the liquid metal from leaking and killing the mainboard?
I wouldn't be worried. I think it would be such a low amount of metal that surface tension keeps it were it should be
@@Max24871 That didn't exactly work out well for the PS5, I don't think it'd work any better in a laptop which is necessarily a mobile device.
@@antikommunistischaktionPS5 uses an absurd amount
They test things so well at FW I wouldn't be worried
I’ve seen that people are re-pasting their cpus on the FW 13, and I would expect the same level of serviceability from the FW 16, so if you are worried about that, then you can always use a different paste.
What sold me is a 10 key. I do tons of cad work and I need that number pad. But nice to be able to swap it out when not needed. I like to keep my laptops for 10 plus years. Framework will let me keep it operating well for that long or longer.
Before I see the rest of the vid:
@Nicco the Louis Rossman Vid you show in the Intro was about the framework **13**, not 16.
Slightly misleading to include it there.
You are right, the selection of thumbnails there is very weak
Also not sure if that was intentional, 7:13 you got a black screen
I've run into problems with audio and wifi not working in Linux on laptops in the past, but not so much lately. My biggest problem recently was (and still is) a fingerprint sensor that doesn't work. I ordered my Framework 16 more for the modularity than the Linux support, but I definitely plan to install Linux on it.
My gut feeling for the laptop, before even watching this video, was “expensive but probably worth it.” Even so, the half-sized up and down arrow keys and USB-C charging from the side, giving up a port, kind of throw me off. But maybe there will be a touchpad module in the future where the touchpad surface is sunken into the palm rest a bit to keep one’s hands physically removed from the touchpad while typing. Manufacturers did their users no favors when they abandoned that convention.
5: They refuse to ship it to my country
*8 months later edit:* Finally available in Sweden!
Oled and pen support needed with it it becomes perfect
About alternatives: what about Slimbook, Tuxedo and other Linux-first manufacturers? They sell some models below the €1000 if I remember correctly.
I would also suggest getting one of those, also to give money to companies which contribute to Linux' growth
Has someone compared those three? Would be very interesting.
Neither of the names you mentioned have US ANSI keyboards at all, meaning they just lost a big chunk of the North American market. And while System76 & StarLabs does in fact ship with them, System76 has below average screens and specs while StarLabs has no dGPU options. Framework literally is my only option.
From what I see Tuxedo only offers NVIDIA GPU laptops which easily makes it a tough sell, because NVIDIA drivers suck on Linux and you’ll be stuck with X11 if you want a stable experience with GSync working. And that’s before getting to the painful experience of updating the system.
That and them using their own in-house distro is questionable.
@@KingKrouch
Their in-house distro is just Kubuntu with some improvements. For example, they have removed snap and take care of all the drivers and firmware for their hardware. So getting the Nvidia to work is not your problem (including Wayland).
But you are not stuck with Kubuntu. There are several distros to choose from, or you can install something completely different. If it is Debian based, you can take advantage of Tuxedo's driver service Tomte.
This is something Framework lacks. You have to do it yourself, just like on any other computer.
The pricepoint is a bit high, but I know the reason why. But the problem with buying is that you can't finance it. I don't have 2.400€ laying around sadly.
If you have to finance it, don't get it. Only buy it if you can afford it out of pocket or absolutely need it for your job right now.
For Cuda, what about using HIP? Is that really not an option for local AI execution like quantized LLM?
People who criticize Framework must be really stupid. Right to repair cost more to design and build. Also you make less money in the long run because your customers aren´t coming back to buy a new laptop when the battery die. So I would be OK with Framework charge you a heck of a lot more than they do.
People need to use their brains more. Otherwise it risks being the same stupid argument from the netbook days. Apple killed the netbook with the much more expensive MacBook Air. Yes, expensive. But was it really? Apple in those days was usually CHEAPER than Dell etc if you got comparable hardware. And as a former Apple tech I can tell you about how 99.9% of all Air repairs was about physical damage. Do I like Apple? No I hate what they become, and I know a heck of a lot more horror stories about them from the older and better days. But the most cringe argument was the "Apple tax" in those days. It was just wrong. The pricing was what it was because Apple was simply not in the business of selling the cheapest crap. To be honest, you got an Air for less than what you pay for the exact same specs on a Dell, and the Mac was way better built. And how about this, The Airs and Minis from around 2012 is some of the best machines to run Linux on. My TV-computer has been Mac Mini´s wit Linux since forever.
Ok, sorry for the "Apple rant". But anyone who criticize Framework should do the mental test of trying to understand why Apple wasn´t so bad (in particular scenarios) around 2012, instead of shouting "My Netbook is better!!!" which basically is what they do if they don´t use their brains properly.
Also, laptops shouldn´t be classified by their "Linux compatibility". Running 100% supported on OpenBSD should be the standard. That´s why I´m still on Thinkpad T and X series machines, and some old Macs...
Apart from the 100% FreeBSD support claim, I agree with your comment. Most people won't use FreeBSD, even Windows haters like myself. (I might try it once I get my Framework Laptop 16, but Linux will 100% be my daily driver on it.)
@@cameronbosch1213 I said OpenBSD, not FreeBSD. FreeBSD even supports Nvidia. What I mean is that when something tests fully functioning on OpenBSD, you can be 110% sure it will work very well under Linux. The fact that Linux folks don't care at all about *BSD is saddening but also a fact.
@DoubleOhSilver Because ThinkPads aren't repairable anymore. Many have some or all of their RAM soldered to the motherboard, they have worse keyboards than before, and even the trackpoint buttons are getting worse on the Z series.
@@DoubleOhSilver Ok, I´m a fanboy, but of what? Old Macs? Thinkpads? Linux? OpenBSD.? You have to be a bit more specific.
@@cameronbosch1213 They are kinda repairable. I would compare my T15 from 2020 to a 2012 and older MacBook Pro. But they are certainly not the same as they were in the older days. As with so many things in our brave new dystopian world.
People need to understand that a laptop's value doesn't only come from performance, but their features as well.
Modularity is a feature worth paying premium for. This means you aren't tied down to whatever the laptop has.
Not now, but GPU for AI proposes maybe will be useful to intel does a external GPU for them, they have intel encoder/decoder AI accelerator. I own A770 currently performs better in linux than windows.
If intel does it, will be awesome
My FW13 AMD just came in. Love it already
I just want to talk about two very minor linux specific issues in the Framework 13 laptop I own. I still recommend it for Linux, but just wanted to clarify it's not perfect.
1. The screen brightness keys do not work out of the box. You have to disable a kernel module for the brightness sensor for the keys to work again. This is part of every linux tutorial framework offers, but it's still a nuisance.
2. The screen resolution to size ratio means that 1x scale is too small to read text, and 2x is way too large. For most people, you have to rely on fractional scaling to get an ideal reading experience. Some desktops (and some proprietary applications like Discord), handle fractional scaling very poorly and become blurry. Even if fractional scaling works for how you use Linux, the fact that there's fewer environments to choose from based on fractional scaling support, means it is inferior to other laptops whose resolution and size compliment non-fractional scaling.
I had this problem on my GPD Win4 (6" 1080p screen). My solution was to install dconf-editor and just up all the font sizes-worked a dream.
Fractional scaling (even on Discord) looks okay on KDE for me, but Steam for some reason doesn’t detect the DPI scaling correctly so I had to make a custom script to launch Steam through and that adjusts the environment variable for forcing it each launch.
Fractional scaling is also a problem because the high resource usage and not many applications does work well with it. Instead what did work for me was using the native resolution but use text scaling (gnome), it did just work smooth and improved battery life A LOT like 2.5x
@@mancarvpoker the issue with that kind of method is that other elements won’t be resized and it will look strange with stuff like buttons. It also doesn’t affect stuff like web browsers, etc.
At least with games that don’t handle it properly, I found that using gamescope with an internal resolution that’s the monitor resolution times the DPI scale and then downscaling that to my monitor resolution helped out a bit. Roblox is one of the few games on WINE that misbehave for me regarding the DPI scale.
Alternatively, some installers (like certain repacks) with a fullscreen background element are bugged out on KDE, and I have to use gamescope for those too.
I wish the modular upgrade slot was more modular and that the laptop didn't need to be opened to swap. I'd love to have a battery and GPU module and choose battery or performance based on my needs.
Remember: **Syntax is your wand**, indentation your incantation. And when the sun peeks over the horizon, casting shadows upon your keyboard, you'll know-you've danced with caffeine's muse.
May your code compile swiftly, your loops be infinite (but not too infinite), and your dreams be caffeinated! ☕🌙✨
Framework 16 would be perfect with an OLED screen. It would then be the best laptop on the market just given the GPU dock option.
Oh, might as well air some greviances here; it is _entirely indefensible_ how Framework hadn't streamlined their expansion card production by deprecating as many of the single-function expansion card options they can in favour for multi-function cards. No reason why we can't have _both_ a USB-A port _and_ four-pole audio, or _dual_ USB-C, or mini-HDMI _and_ three-pole line out. What's stopping them, aside from the slightly more expensive proposition of specific-purpose USB hubs?
Very informative thank you!
nicco, you do very well considering english is not your native language. does framework have a integrated dvd-drive option? that is one thing which is sadly missing on all new laptops.
Would it be too much to ask for a 21 inch display and mechanical keyboard on a Framework laptop?
Yes, no one else would buy such a chunky laptop.
Framework is making good laptops "right now", fair, but it is uncertain whether the company is going to exist years into the future to ensure their mandate of upgradeability and repairability. Meaning if the gamble to purchase a Framework doesn't pay off and Framework does go out of business, a couple years from now, a dead Frameworks 16 is just as dead as a Thinkpad!!!
On an untested brand, I don't know if that is a gamble I would make!
Ye that is a fair criticism. One of their selling point is based on trusting them, but one can't just trust someonethey never met before. lol
@@AzarilhI mean, if we were talking about HP or Dell that were selling the same product with all the expansion and upgrade modules, I wouldn't be so skeptical. Those are brands/companies that have existed for a very long time so I trust that they aren't going anywhere. Same can't be said of Frameworks.
@@schemage2210 Ye, that is what the brand is for, totally agree.
Nice video! I purchased an Asus full AMD just because it has Linux support. Not from Asus, but from the community pushing the limits. I wish i could afford a Framework one but delivery times was not possible because of my travel schedule.
This video misses the entire point of a framework laptop. The design is standardized and functional to maintain compatibilty between generations of upgrades and repairs. If something gets damaged, or worn out, it can be easily replaced many years down the line so you dont have to go out and buy a whole new computer, saving you money over time. Consumers need to vote with their wallets and if we want repairable devices to succeed we have to pay the price and show that its what we want. I dont even own a framework laptop, but i can promise you that when ever my current machine dies and costs too much to repair, i will be getting one. EVERYONE should Consider a framework, and of course it wont be right for all, but to say its a bad laptop is such a shame.
Man, here in Canuckastan, Base Do-It-Yourself = $1899. Yikes. Going 'mid-tier' with the lower AMD, supplying my own RAM, no GPU, no OS, 2 USB, 1 USB A, Ethernet, HDMI, Audio, 2 gray spacers, 1 num-pad, it starts getting 'rapey' after Canada's bullshit taxes: (5% GST, 8% Provincial). I'm basically looking at the better part of 3 grand. Hmmmm, i dunno...Suddenly I feel like robbing a bank
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I am looking forwared to framework laptops with full Linux support.
6:04 👀 8125°C ?!
I love Lenovo laptops. Good cooling, good keyboards, good price performance ratio. But the one thing that always bothered me about modern laptops is that the only thing I can replace, is a HDD/SSD, RAM and wifi if something breaks or I need to add. Which is much better than a glued and soldered laptop. But I do care about my laptop. I work on it, and I relax playing games or just browsing the internet on it. So my laptop looks much how it did, when I bought it four years ago. And it is a shame to be not able to just swap the mainboard and CPU, or just the dGPU. Or a broken keyboard. So I am inclined to buy the FW 16 just to be able to do this. Even for that price. Always built my desktops and love the modularity. Just being able to only swap what I need.
My Lenovo Legion with an i7-12700H, a 3070TI, 2TB NVMe and 32GB RAM came ~900€ shipped. The hardware is pretty well supported on Linux and it is overall a good machine.
I would still call the frameworks overpriced, sorry. I could literally buy a second and third one to replace it for the price and that's with worse IO and DIY.
I don't know where you live but I can't buy that monster in my country, not at that price
@@mancarvpoker Switzerland. But it was a really good deal, so it might be an unfair comparison. But 1000-1200€ is a realistic price, if you are patient and look for deals. On the other hand, prices increased a lot since I buyed my machine.
Nonetheless, you can find good deals with a comparable performance to the Framework 16 for around half the price. It is just overpriced.
@@5Hydroxytryptophan dude it was the best deal ever haha I'm agree with that you can find better deals but also you can find worse or similar deals but framework offers something really valuable
@@mancarvpoker Yeah.. it really was. :) But I don't think Framework has anything special to offer if you consider that I have more IO than I could ever plug in to the FW. My machine also has a Numpad and 300W charging. Only one thing bothers me.. HDMI 2.0 and no DisplayPort. And maybe the missing SD reader.
Sure, it is less individual, but I never had any problem fixing Laptops whatsoever. But I'm a tinkerer.. so repairability might be a bonus to some people. But then again: If I buy two machines with similar performance and one breaks, I still have a second working machine for the same budget and it can be used for other things in the meanwhile.
Nonetheless it's a good idea, which itself isn't that new tbh. But at least they do good marketing and really try to establish it. I hope they fix their pricing asap, but the modularity comes with a more complex manufacturing. So we shouldn't hold out breath.
Would be cool if they had a 16 slim without a dgpu :)
Actually, you can get the Framework 16" without a dGPU (but still add one later of course). In the laptop configuration, you can choose the "Expansion Bay Shell" instead of the "Graphics Module". And the Laptop will be a tiny bit shorter and slimmer without the dGPU.
Correction it won't really be thinner just won't protrude as much out the back and it will be 4.6 lbs vs 5.3lbs with
@@VladimirKostek Yeah you're right 🙃
Once its possible to buy in asian countries without huge ass shipping charges. I am buying one.
Eh, I have an old ASUS gaming laptop that is still going. It's old enough that Windows 11 would refuse to install. Can it play the latest games? No. Is it fine for everything else? Yeah. I'm sure some gaming laptops have problems, but I think Nicco is exaggerating the problems with dGPUs, and frankly I prefer them. Just be aware that they do need good airflow, so don't buy that slim-looking model.
The only reason I did not get a Framework laptop is because ALL windows trackpads suck.
WOW !
I just learned from your video about the AMD Rz 616 wifi 6E chipset.
Did not know they did this.
Two heavy underdogs, AMD + Mediatek ready to take over !!
It looks darn good to me and I much prefer my laptops to not be glued down disposable commodities!
You obviously haven't seen Dave2d's video about the same laptop. He praises it and he knows what he is talking about. Maybe Apple's laptops are overpriced???????? Apple gadgets in general????
Can you repair or upgrade Apple products???? What does the new Apple Watch cost? Is it overpriced?
If I could buy a Framework 16 Laptop in Denmark, it would be my first choice oveer any other laptop.
He praised it, then attempted to trash it using stupid arguments, then praised it again. I don't know wtf Dave2D is doing anymore. 😂
Yea every video he does on the framework has a different outcome. Like in his last one he's working with a pre-production and kept talking about the finish and feel at the end
@niccoloveslinux 0:37 is disingenuous. If you'd watched the LTT video, you'd realise the title was clickbait as he wished he'd invested more!
Also Rossman video is about the FW13.
Probably cheaper in the long run, if something breaks you can fix it yourself rather than throwing the whole thing away.
Yes but the laptops you recommend will not last forever, the framework can be the last laptop you ever buy.
The _No CUDA_ problem is resolved the moment you slap a GPU in the back of it using the Dell-made semi-proprietary reverse-engineered open re-release of a rear-facing external MXM-style attachment it has with NVidia hardware. Gives your laptop a chunky ass, but some people are into that. 😏
I think the cheapest gaming laptop you can get these days is the Acer nitro 5, some people call it an entry level gaming laptop and also in the past it is the gaming laptop that can support linux since it has an rx 560X dGPU. Nowadays MSI Alpha and Bravo are now the best gaming laptop that can support linux since it is an all AMD gaming laptop. Also in the past the Mediatek MT922 (a.k.a AMD rz 616) had a lot issues though I think it is now fixed.....
Why did he use that ltt thumbnail. Linus said in that video that he wished he had invested more.
He prolly didn't watch the video and you can't blame him for LTT clickbaiting.
Cuda is pronounced like "Quda".
Liked that video, thanks a lot for all the insight.
Thanks Nicco, i kinda liked it
Can you swap an AMD card for an Intel?
It is possible to upgrade a Framework 13 from AMD to Intel so I am sure there will be an Intel board at some point. Maybe an Intel GPU will be made as well.
Why doesn't it have the 7900M?
That thing uses 175 watts by itself. I think the current Framework Laptop 16 can only go up to 240 watt USB-C chargers, and that's for the whole system. I also don't think 240 watt USB-C PD 3.1 chargers exist atm. Even then, you'd have less performance for the CPU as the GPU would take almost all of the power budget unless they used a different power connector, which I have no idea if they would do it.
I think they're waiting for a 7900S.
@@cameronbosch1213 The 180W chargers didn't exist until Framework had one made for the FW16,
@johnroberts2905 I still find it weird that not a single manufacturer made a 180 watt USB-C PD charger before Framework.
@@cameronbosch1213 THey're still happily using older proprietary chargers. Lenovo have been using the old slim tip one for 10+ years. Give them a couple of years and product cycles they'll likely transition over over. Made sense for Framework as they had a clean sheet start.
This laptop seems super cool, but i already have the 13, and dont need that kind of performance from a laptop. Very cool product though and wish i could support
What framework doing is quite interesting but to most users if not all, a ram upgrade and storage upgrade is all we need with repairability. How often do people upgrade their processor even on desktop? Right to repair is important but this laptop is just being fancy for the sake of being fancy.
I’d be interested in buying a Framework laptop as my next laptop (once I’m done with this AMD Alienware laptop of mine) when they give an option of black or dark grey casing (instead of white) and a MX Red mechanical keyboard like my current laptop. That and a numberpad option that has the same key switches and lighting, because the current options for numberpads are kind of tacky looking compared to the current RGB keyboard option.
I’m hoping by the time that happens, that Thunderbolt 5/USB 5 is available, as I’d like a singular setup with an eGPU while still having decent performance if I bring it somewhere to get work done, and from what I tried with my current laptop, an USB 4 eGPU runs 30% of what the dedicated GPU does.
There’s an early adopter tax, but I’d be willing to pay that tax if that means that they can keep making modular and upgradable laptops that forces other laptop manufacturers to improve. You can buy similarly spec’d gaming laptops (Ryzen 9, 32GB RAM, dGPU) for cheaper, but they come with cheap NVMEs and you can’t upgrade or repair them nearly as easily.
Sure looks like a nice laptop but im broke lol. Nice vid :)
It costs 1600£ in the uk so i think i will pass the motherboards are priced more than some full laptops it may be good for the earth and good for framework but it aint for your walle
Great article! As a proud owner of a Framework 13” laptop, I concur with Luca.
I would rather spend the extra and know i can replace or repair down the line.
This video is literally the first time I heard something bad about this laptop xD
i looked at one of these a few weeks ago and spec for spec i settled on a System76 Adder WS with 13900hx and 4060 for 1800 usd and am very satisfied with my choice. I just don't think the value proposition is there yet for framework. less performant with higher dollar entry
I was about to switch from a Mac to this computer.. The cost was a little high but future upgrade capability was very attractive. I wanted the AMD chip. But...there are many people on the forums having problems with this chip in this computer and the company is not owning up to it. In fact, they are avoiding the issue. Lost my trust....bigger problems on the horizon....I bought another Mac.
1. What issues with AMD?
2. Apple is the last company one should trust. They make their stuff hard to repair on purpose and limit their cooling as well for some reason as well as doing many anti-consumer stuff, i don't see how Apple can be a more trust worthy company than Framework and honestly than a lot of other companies even with some trust issues you might have with them. Apple is so bad it's hard to beat in their untrustworthiness.
07:11 why black?
About alternatives... Older thinkpads are often found for a great price on sites like Ebay, usually either used or refurbished. I bought refurbished (perfect condition, from what I can see) X13 Gen 2 (Amd) for 280 bucks, and while it only has 8 gigs of RAM, it's still a steal IMO. 16 gigs configurations are usually about 450-500 bucks nowadays, and a newer Gen 3 is not that much more expensive. I saw Z13 with 6850U/16/512 with a touchscreen for 550 USD, for example. Same goes for T14(s) and other models
good Linux support makes a single laptop Trump all other laptops in its class in general.
if they were intel and NVidia, I would definitely buy one. AMD, no thanks!
I have one criticism for Framework: payment options
I wanted to buy one, proceed to the checkout, and notice that there isn't a single one I can use...
Nor do I know a person, who could use one of the payment options.
And considering how expensive credit cards are, I don't want to buy one just for one purchase.
Could make a forum post, as that may increase priorities for the business team to expand upon payment options.
Their own support there is pretty active and seems like they communicate pretty directly with the other groups in the company.
@@isofruitfruit9357 already wrote this in a specific post for stuff like this months ago
I'll just patiently wait until it trickles down to us poor people, like when there will be ones on the used market (which will be hard) or some heavy price cuts to current parts when newer ones arrive. Already 'upgraded' to a used legion 5i (2060 version) a year ago to be a mobile vr setup (yes I was aiming for barely above minimum specs) and has been serving me well, the only bad thing I can say is that I still can't use wayland, besides that nothing in terms of weird proprietary firmware stuff
you said CUDA fine. good video.
Only problem is the ridiculously expensive price for parts.
DGPU is 400 $
keyboard is 80 $ without numpad(wtf; well for the NKRO feature, it's understandable)
spacer are 10 $ each.
Screen can't be exchanged with a FHD(1920x1080) less expensive variant. You're stuck with 2.5K resolution.
each port is about 9 $
No HDD ports, works only with SSDs.
Base price is above 1600 $ and you don't even know why. Because some things are hidden.
The GPU is 450€ when customising the laptop, 550€ when bought individually ( with taxes ).
The same GPU but for desktop can be bought for about 450€, so i don't really see the scandal about its pricing.
@@Azarilh The scandal is that there's not enough options for customization.
There are no options to downgrade the PC in favor of something still powerful but just mid tier instead of high tier. That's the problem.
@@eddyalvaross2195 The laptop is still not officially out, and it's the first one with a dGPU. Give it time, it's a good start.
I see the value in the Framework 16. Sadly I think it's ugly as sin.
Can we all agree to ignore LTT?
Why?
@@Azarilh they stopped being relevant years ago. They are part of the problem of vomiting reviews out.
@@meatbyproducts ???
So much lenovo xd
Do they give a percentage of each laptop to KDE?
Or are they like false friends who take advantage of all the publicity that we Linux fans give them?
They don't ship with Linux out of the box, I don't see how they'd owe us anything
They don't owe you or any "Linux fan" nothing. They make Linux friendly laptops and you even complain? What a dense person you are.
@niccoloveslinux You better put it on me.
They say on their website that their laptops work with Linux but they waste no time installing it....
The entire Linux community applauds them and advertises them, but they only take that fame and do not distribute benefits.
dont cook ever again bro
The problem with your argumentation is one of their goals. To produce e waste. But to reduce waste, you have to make something like this mainstream. To make it mainstream, you have to make it affordable. You see the problem, when you make something 2x the cost of a laptop with comparable performance? But I hope in time the price will go down. Now it is only for enthusiasts, with the right cash. It is a good laptop and a great idea which I love. The design is a matter of taste. I like the simple non intrusive design. Personally I use my laptop for work and some gaming. But paying 2500€ for something, that I can buy for 1800€ max is a no go. And when you look at the price of a motherboard which is 850€+ (and 200€ plus for a 100MHz upgrade...smells like Apple scam) and a GPU that is 559€...than the upgradability just stops making any sense, because you get really near the price of a new laptop. Which sucks. May be in a year or two it will be more affordable and more in line with the FW13 price performance ratio. Than I will get one.
It's working, Dell started doing something similar to Framework. Would not be surprised to see more companies in the future following the lead, eventually becoming the norm. At that point it would ebcome cheaper to make laptops like this.
Unfortunately it takes time and a lot of money to start something like this, people that have money need to care to make it more popular and therefore more affordable.
their goal is to make money. they are selling a story.
My Biggest complaint is that the Framework 16 is AMD only as AMD is not the most Linux-friendly company. Beyond AMDGPU they don't really contribute much to Linux as seen recently that their AI accelerator doesn't have a Linux driver at all currently. Not to mention ROCm is a freaking joke and I doubt the GPU you can get with this laptop is supported. I would have loved to see a Team Blue option given Intel now has their Arc graphics lineup. Plus Intel is much friendlier towards the Linux community, Quicksync is much much much better than AMF, and their Arc GPUs can actually do GPGPU things as there is proper support and documentation. Lacking Intel options is a major major dealbreaker, and unfortunately places this model firmly in the "will not buy" category for me. I think I will stick with my current Framework for the moment.
Framework wanted to appeal with the gaming crowd and quite frankly, ARC drivers are just plain bad currently.
> _Beyond AMDGPU_
That carveout is doing some heavy lifting-all except the very newest AMD GPUs and APUs work seamlessly in Linux out of the box, assuming your kernel isn't ancient, thanks to the contributions that AMD makes to MESA _in advance_ of their product releases. The AI cores *might* work with existing Xilinx drivers (I don't have one, so I can't test)-what the community is upset about is that their AI _SDK_ is Windows-only right now.
Intel ARC is, by all reports, an even more abysmal experience on Linux than it is Windows, but I forgive them for first-generation teething pains.
ROCm not being the GPGPU beast that CUDA is for Nvidia-that's fair, but also just speaks to company priorities.
@@kuhluhOG Could have fooled me. KDE Wayland works just fine and as long as you're not trying to run a DX12 game you won't have any issues, and again Arc is going to be the superior option for literally every other GPU-related task as AMD just doesn't do any of that well. I have not even tried the Xe driver yet, and I don't intend to as I simply played around with the card before dropping it into my homelab.
@@GSBarlev Like I said, AMDGPU is great for AMD to contribute, but *_outside of AMDGPU AMD's Linux support is utterly abysmal_* and even then let's not pretend that AMDGPU was always the land of milk and honey. I remember the long and rocky process of that driver being upstreamed. Even as you conceded AMD isn't doing well on the newest hardware out of the box whereas that just doesn't happen with intel and even Nvidia. Nvidia has almost always had a Linux driver out for newest cards and Arc is the only example I can remember where Intel didn't have their hardware working OOB on Linux at release. AMD really does not seem to care about Linux, they just have that one virtue signal in the form of AMDGPU. If they really cared then Ryzen AI would at least have an experimental driver out for Linux. You know, Linux, the number one platform for AI workloads. The fact that you have to rely on a _maybe_ bolsters my point rather well.
Also, Arc worked just fine for me for the few days I plopped it into my gaming rig out of curiosity (it was intended to replace the 1070s in my homelab). Sure, we don't have the Xe driver yet, but I found no complaints outside of DX12 games not working.
@@antikommunistischaktion AMD *do* have AI drivers. For their dedicated Instinct cards. Which is what researchers *actually use* to run AI workloads.
I don't really blame them for not prioritizing support for _embedded mobile_ AI cores (though, again, it's my understanding that low-level access *is* already in the kernel, what's missing is the SDK, which appears to have been developed -in collaboration with- by Microsol).
As for zero-day support-I don't concede the point as much as profess ignorance, as I generally don't buy current-gen hardware. The exception was a GPD Win4 6800U, which worked perfectly on a rolling release distro out of the box, save for needing to add a Ryzen SMU kernel module for fine-grained power management.
The biggest problem with laptops is that you’re stuck with the configuration and can’t repair anything that breaks. Framework gives you a machine that solves all these problems and idiots complain about the price 😡