I know you're a Bowie geek, so I'll let this one slide, but when you told your Kubrick anecdote, you referred to 2001 as the Space Oddity. Freud is rolling over in his penis-shaped grave.
Would be great to learn about dynamic ranges in both mixing and mastering processes. Do you measure DR and tame individual instruments or busses to a specific degree before blending them? How much DR do you target for in a mix? What about DR levels for mastering considering gear of today's listener?
@@Producelikeapro No worries! As an autodidact, you're channel is invaluable! & your reverence & humility, in regards to music & all else, is enlightening. Hope you're doing marvelous!
I am a horrible engineer but a pretty strong songwriter. Here's my opinion on how to write good music: 1) Listen to interesting music 2) Learn a little theory so you're not just fumbling in the dark 3) Try to make weird things sound accessible and accessible things sound weird 4) Write what you like, not what you think other people want to hear. In other words, stop worrying about whether it's good and make yourself happy.
I agree! But my vocal coach also gave me this great advice: "Some songs you make for yourself and it's weird. Some songs you make for them, and it's simple."
I've been in the same punk band for 15 years and we've definitely combined punk with surf, ska, synth pop and a bunch of Motown. It is all about finding creative ways to make each genre your own.
Finally!!!! enough about gear. Without a song... there is nothing to record. Talk about HOW a producer works with the artist to get the performance and song structure together. A very realsistic duty than just getting another piece of gear.
My thinking on songwriting has always been to sort of let the song decide how and when it wants to end. At some point it will feel like it’s done, and trying to add or subtract from it will make it feel forced. Love the idea of challenging yourself, there’s never anything wrong with that.
Writing 10 min progressive Rock Songs is complicated art, but writing somesthing so smooth that everybody likes it, is an art too. Even if i don´t really listen to Rodio Pop Songs actively, i really like how it´s done.
@@Emergentministry Looks like a two light setup (not counting the lamp in the background for atmosphere). One warmish and soft key light right above eye level slightly off center to his left. The a brighter cooler light placed well above and behind his right side aimed at the back of his neck.
I've been watching this channel for a little while, but I think this is the most Warren has talked about songwriting. Great topic as I think it might be the hardest thing to do in music. And the most fun.
Warren should definitely talk more about songwriting, I wholly encourage that! Because what use are all these music production skills if the song sucks. The song is the most important thing. It all starts with a good song, then make it a great song (getting structure right, arrangements, fine-funing lyrics, etc.) and then make it magic with the best possible mix and mastering.
"Pop music is not a genre. It is a response" -Hit writer Ross Golan Listen to the charts. There is EDM, Hip-Hop, Disco, etc. If you want to write a hit you must be a master of song craft/structure. Hits aren't written on accident. Has to be a universally relatable idea that's well executed. Melody is king. Chords are nice but it's the top line(lyric/melody) that's catchy and contrasting from section to section regardless of chords that's what sticks in people's heads. Structure these days is vastly different than twenty years ago. Pre-Chorus has to be a hook now then even bigger hook in Chorus. Then there is the post Chorus drop which borrows from EDM. You can talk smack all day about pop but try to write a song and get it cut by a major label artist and see how difficult the game really is.
Hi Warren, speaking about multiple takes for choir, I've recently produced a song with the only artist making all the backgrounds, for a "stadium anthem" melody: - 4 takes singing moving slightly off the mic, from left to right; near mic - 4 takes as before, but far mic - 4 takes as before, but with shoulders to the mic, to catch the reflection of the opposite wall That's my penny. Hope to be useful! :) Thank you for all your knowledge, as usual!
Warren, I just wanted to say that you deserve a statue in rock HOF for this channel! It is a joy listening a pro so candidly discusing his profession, and sharing knowledge. Thank you!!!!
Modern radio songs: either write it on a Game Boy or an acoustic guitar and make absolutely sure to sing about getting chucked like a bleating lamb, haha! A good tune has to have a catchy chorus and decent bridging melodies between parts! Make sure the parts go into each other in a pleasing and interesting way with a throbbing chorus and you can get away with anything! It's definitely a good idea to leave the listener wanting more over dragging it out! I wish modern music was even a fraction as interesting as Rubber Soul!
I've written 12 albums of "pop" songs of exactly how you define them. Hundreds registered with BMI with sporadic radio play. But I argue that "pop" has switched genres from rock to rap and doesn't use guitars at all. A melody happens around someone else's loop now. It's a totally different market now. When we try to explain songwriting to a younger generation, all we get is "ok boomer, what's your image and marketing strategy? The song is inconsequential.". Thoughts?
I'm not going to say you're wrong, because that would mean invalidating personal experience. I'd just be carefully mentioning, that the markets vary by country, and so do the genres. Despite that though, we have a globally spanning music industry. So if someone says your stuff is dated that doesn't mean it's dated EVERYWHERE. Just look at the billboards for different countries and you get my point. If I dare say, in case you get such a response by a "younger generation member", I do feel terribly sorry for your experience :( I can tell you this is not the default experience around the globe. The guitar being an instrument that augments a song is the opposite of dead. Not even guitar-centric music is dead. 4-chord 80bpm rocknroll with a pentatonic solo might be a declining market however... I'd go out on a limb and say, it's never about the instruments (in my world, vocals are instruments just as well) but about the melodies first, the flow second, and then some "Zeitgeist" in regards to the currently popular styles third. You can craft melodies onto everything. But without something catchy or intriguing or attention grabbing... the CHOICE of instruments doesn't matter.
@@Khunvyel Guitar is dying a slow death. Gibson on the brink of bankruptcy along with Guitar Center and most music stores. When I talk about the younger generation, it's important because they will steer the music of the future as the older generation (I believe Warren and myself are of similar ages) will become an irrelevant music market to cater to . The last of the stadium rock bands like the Rolling Stones will be rolling their wheelchairs soon while Keith Richards lives through the Apocalypse. I'm not one to switch how I write music just because popular music changed. I'll always stay true to myself and write what I like to hear. Even if no one cares.
Thanks for your comment Jrh007! The song is even more important than ever, whoever said 'The song is inconsequential' does not know what they are talking about! I can tell from a labels point of view, it is are important than ever!
@@Producelikeapro I agree. But you have to admit, a LOT more emphasis is put on image, personal drama (SixNine just came out of jail, wow what a gangsta!), and even the lyrics in modern mumblerap are nothing like OG Tupac or Public Enemy. But I'm a rock/pop guy through and through. Beatles, Jellyfish, Zeppelin, Porcupine Tree, etc... Unfortunately music has been delegated to background workout or shopping mall muzak. Digital earbud candy with no beautiful cover art, lyrics, liner notes, etc. No heart, emotion, or skill with an instrument. Sad for the next generation that didn't experience music how we did.
@@jhopper007 I agree with some of your points, particularly about pop morphing towards rap. Not so convinced that more emphasis on image is anything new; it seems to me that the pendulum swings back and forth on that for mainstream music. I also think the music markets are splitting into more differentiation, particularly due to mainstream media being less and less "mainstream." I've also heard some people (sorry, don't remember the sources) say guitars are coming back; maybe it was a Fender exec or some online retailers. Gibson is a dorked up company that may need some time to fix if it doesn't go bye-bye first. Thanks for making me think about it, I appreciate it and like the comment.
Awesome conversation, Music is free and we musicians who don't want to be labeled should not start to label "This is just Pop" - at the end it's curiosity that keeps us creating every day, so we should not create our own barriers especially when it comes to music - challenge accepted, let's make a Poppy Megadeath Track, why not ? :) That's incredible, always when I have a question in my mind it get's answered in the next video you post 😂🤘🤘Last week I used your tricks to make louder mixes and it worked, now I'm back in Songwriting and get this top tips here, T H A N K Y O U Warren !!!
One big reason I love 90s and 00s rock is that it still rocked but fit within the “pop format.” So you’d get songs that would make you wanna bang your head but also sing along
When I was a teenager I used to love stretching out in 10+ minute songs. Now that I’ve hit my 40s, I’m trying to write 2 minute songs like they did in the 50s. I remember hearing about The Pixies and Frank Black in particular trying to convince a producer that they should have sub-2 minute songs with the same reasoning.
The Cure - Fascination Street: is over 5min long and the vocal does not begin until well over 2min in. We should be learning how to expand our attention span for good music instead of focusing on social media necessities.
Unfotunately, commercial success, in large part, is now tied to social media necessities. If you're in it for the art and are ok with a niche audience, then awesome, you can do whatever you want. If you want to have a global commercial smash hit, then you need to think about social media and streaming.
Hi Mercylane! I'm a huge fan of the Cure! 'Fascination Street' was only a single in the US and was both remixed and edited down to 4.17 for Radio Format with many DJ's fading in and/or starting it later! Masterpiece, but manipulated for US Radio, they did not use the Album version on the Radio on it's release. I hope that clarifies?
@@Producelikeapro Also a huge fan and fortunate enough to have worked with them. But this was about the "secret to writing great songs" not editing them.
@@mercylanemusic commercial radio has been editing songs for years. Good example is "My Sharona" with the solo edited down. They literally cut the balls out of it. I guess you have to dance with the devil to play that radio game but when are we prepared to say radio doesn't matter anymore? It's more about what they are pushing on TV and social media. Can't escape Taylor Swift's new release on social media right now and I haven't even heard a track off it yet.
@@DoItYourselfMusician yes. well known music is edited for radio and other platforms. I do personally believe its better for an 'Artist' to be an artist first and a promoter second. Write for yourself initially and not the spottily algorithm. Let the song live as it wants and needs to live. If it ends up being a 3.20 with the hook right at the start.. so be it. But that is not always what constitutes a good song. Don't stop believing.
I used to worry about string squeaks, until a indie rock hipster at work told me how much he loves that sound, haha. Kind of like how Eddie Kramer loves the console hum and tape noise on the old recordings.
The longer i´m working with music the more i see there´s only a good song or a bad song. you could take a metal song, tame the voice, use other instruments and it´s a pop song. use a singer songwriter song, produce it and it will be edm. at the end the core of a song matters, no matter what instruments you take i think. the melody and structure will make it work.
i dont automate as much in logic i guess cause its slightly more work than in a daw like flstudio(use to use for years). it makes me realize certain people create differently in different daws. like driving differently in a truck around a track than in a racer or on a motorcycle. It makes me realize i should take a second to remember its all about the end result and if i can hear something i need i should create it rather than letting my laziness allow my daw to hinder or alter the music. i wonder if anyone else feels the same.
Me and my mate Amy had to do a choir on a hymn for a community where we live. There was only us two and what we did was just laid down about 4 different harmonies about 4 different times each and it was absolutely gorgeous. What made it great was exactly what you said the slightly out tune feel..the humanness of it all.... Great vid mate keep it up
Im all for the songwriting episode in FULL. I´d LOVE to see that happening soon! Your videos are awesome Warren and you inspire us all. Massive thanks!
Something I did was to check out the song structures of the best rock song Grammy award winners of the past 10 years. Very interesting. Particularly to see how Bowie for example destroys the standard structures.
My choir, i sing trough two different mics going to two different pre amps. And again with two different mics. ( Only have a two chanel interface.) Then i use very much reverb and overdrive on some takes and none on some. And program Ahs or Ohs or Ees on choir synths on long vowels, in the back.
One of the best examples of what you mean is Erasure. I remember the album "The Circus" with the massive pop hits "Sometimes" and "It doesn't have to be". But the best songs on that album were "The Circus" and "If I could." The pop hits are there to work on the radio (OK, just on Spotify now). Other songs on the albums are what make the bands stand out. It always reminds me of my favorite band OMD. For example, the album "Sugar Tax" had the insane hits "Sailing on the seven seas" and "Pandora's Box." But that was almost pop music. But OMD were never pop. And so on the same album you find Shakespeare in "All that glitters" and missed opportunities with "Speed of light" and loneliness with "Walking on air". All these songs are much better than the singles. But they are not radio friendly. Bands like OMD never went the easy way. They always had something to say and to express. Of course, McCluskey and Humphreys wrote massive, massive Pop Hits. But their real talent was to get rid of thinking about what others and the music industry want to hear. How else could you explain an album like "Dazzle Ships"? Yes, they still exist despite such albums. And this is what counts. One last thought: You are absolutely right. You have to make an edit if you want to be played on the radio or on Spotify and if you want to sell your music. The biggest hit worldwide by OMD is "Maid of Orleans". This song would have failed to enter the radio stations and the charts if there wasn't an edit where they removed the strange noise in the beginning. With the noise, the song counts 4:07, without 3:27.
i usually write songs in verse - pre - chorus - verse - pre - chorus - bridge/solo (depends) - chorus - maybe outro. i sometimes don't have a prechorus. i've written a few songs w/o this structure but this is just easy to write.
That's a great topic! I'm totally with you, Warren. Basically every musician loves The Beatles, but somehow many won't think of them when they talk about Pop music. So this genre has a reputation of being simplistic or hollow. Whenever I hear this, I very much and decisively disagree with that. Most of the time I feel it is much more of a challenge to write an engaging Pop song unique enough to be recognisable than a 20 minute long, "complex", meandering Prog Rock epic. This is a great point that many musicians should hear! Please don't hate Pop music, because it is the most diverse and colourful collection of genres out there.
You nailed it about "popular" songs. I would love to see some of the currently talented rock/indie/metal bands nail the radio formula and get their stuff on the air. I know the creamy edge butter is out there on the streaming services but it would be great to see more visibility for these bands. Let's bring back rock and roll!
Thank you Warren! I actually like string squeaks sometimes! makes it sound "natural". But if they are to loud, indeed turn them down or use a de-esser. I once recorded my own vocal around 8 times to create a "choir" like effect. I sang in different melody lines, pitch and rooms. Made it sound realistic although it's just only me!
“Hit the 1 on the dambe”.... What’s a dambe? Also, it would be great if you did a vid about classic chord progressions and leading into chorus/prechorus/bridge etc...
I use flat strings on all my guitars and basses since I love the 60's guitar/bass sound and it all so helps with toning down the squeaks between chord changes
I always try to ask myself 3 questions when I’m making music: 1. Does this music part make me feels something? 2. What does it make me feel? 3. Do I like how it makes me feel?
One thing that makes a huge difference trying to layer a bunch of vocal takes from 1 person is changing your voice a little. Don't do all the takes in your normal voice, otherwise it sounds way more obviously that it's just a bunch of layers. I've done this while altering my voice each time (like 6 times, not 48...), so one is maybe just a slight be nasal, the next one is a little deeper and warmer, another one is a bit more throaty, etc. To me it makes it way way more convincing. That way it doesn't all sound like a room full of 10 of the same exact person with the same exact tonal EQ of their voice. That's all along with your suggestions about detuning and delays and all that as well.
I don't use very many Waves plugins, but the DS2 in the Scheps Omni Channel is brilliant for fixing problems. I use it specifically for string squeaks that are popping out a little too much (over fixing them can be its own problem). I also use it to duck masking frequencies (e.g. overlap in a kick and bass) so I'm not carving out something via EQ that I actually want, I'm just pulling it out when the two channels overlap with a sidechain. Plus you can pop in a little bit of saturation, EQ or limiting to further sculpt a sound in a very transparent (or not, if that's what you want) way and keep all the instruments sounding musical (overused term I know, but what's more musical than leaving that 50-70 Hz in the bass to reinforce the fundamental of the harmony when the kick isn't playing, but duck it when you need the kick to boom or vice versa?). There are a million plugins to add character, and I use a bunch, but I don't know of a better utility plugin.
The album I'm making currently focuses on telling a specific story, so depending on the moment in that story, the music can be proggy, bluesy, ambient or metal - if the atmosphere calls for it. I think it's a tremendous way to learn styles you wouldn't normally touch, and by learning which, you can improve your songwriting in any style you pick up. I also like to keep it simple (or I'm just unable to play complex stuff xD), so even if the song turns into a 10+ minute, progressive monster, it's still...fairly easy to grasp
Structuring good transitions from verse to chorus or verse, bridge, chorus makes for interesting listening and fun creating and play. I like to change keys to keep things challenging too.
another trick for layering a vocal is too pitch a double up slightly and pitch another double or dub down slightly and it will make the main vocal stick out and seem wider depending how its executed. I learned that from Warren as well. haha.
Here’s a suggestion for recording a choir with one person... I had to create a choir/group of monks chanting. I recorded the same part each in several different keys, and then tuned them all back to the original key. The varied timbers of the vocals at different pitches stayed unique after adjusting each to match the key-so each voice sounded like a different person. It came out nicely.
The biggest key is, listen to, and more importantly, love incredibly well written songs with huge catchy melodies. If you don't love these songs your brain isn't going to gravitate towards big soaring melodies. Listen to a lot of Jazz. I hated jazz but everyone said you have to listen to jazz because it's the most sophisticated music. Jazz music of all kinds opens up your melodic pallette like nothing else. Just play your instrument instead of trying to play something. Enjoy playing your instruments. MEDITATE using a mantra. This is the hugest way to access your creative subconscious mind. All good music is created from the subconscious mind and it is accessed through stillness. Regular meditation 30 mins a day once or twice will bring deep peace to your mind and then all of your musical experience will be able to mingle with the subconscious super conscious mind and collective consciousness. Get out of the way of the song writing itself. For lyrics, read fiction, relax and let the song and words come to you.
Hi Warren, you're right on the money about turning down the squeaking. I had an acoustic guitar with fresh strings recorded with a SDC & a 2 fingered melody line was squeaking all over the place. I messed around forever with deessers but all they did was change the tone of the squeak, the fundamental was still prominent as ever. I had to use a fair amount of clip gain reduction to really make a difference. It was painstaking & time consuming but faced with the same situation again, that would be my go to option.
jackie turner yes, that's a good approach but would've made the part sound very robotic. The notes were leading into each other. I wouldn't use brand new strings on a recording again...let them lose some of the zing! 😀
Nice Warren. Showing some love for The Cure. Great song writing. I would argue The Smiths are up there too or dare I say it, Killing Joke. And this is coming from a Metal head lol. Great video and discussion my friend.
I'm currently doing this genre fusion of Salsa and Rock, but rock is drawing more from my love and passion of Emo and Post hardcore. So it's more like Salsa Punk :) I'm absolutely loving it XD
Love the Cure! Push is my favorite! What a great line of thought you've laid out here. I have thought through this line of thought (pop writing for your own authentic genre) for quite sometime. I think the world we live in today has little room for songs that require long listening stints. I think one must comprise their authenticity in writing into shorter durations of time. The good news is young people like the organic sounds of old. They want that element into this over processed age of sound. Great channel and thank you for giving your gift to us in small pieces at a time. Cheers!
Love Will Tear Us Apart is my favourite 'pop' song, the melody hooks you, the dark lyrics keep you coming back. I love Joy Division's entire discography but to have a song that lives on in pop culture is super inspiring as a songwriter.
I totally agree that it’s a challenge to work within the boundaries of rules, like e.g., anyone can B.S., but on the other hand it’s rather difficult to be philosophically certain (I.e. logically certain). Maybe that’s what makes a great artist; they seem like they’re breaking all the rules while conforming otherwise...?
Thanks for answering my question about string squeeks Warren! Its been a huge problem for me. I just bought the waves de-esser and Scheps omni this past weekend too. im gonna get to work on it
I used your clearmountain de-essing trick to kill some squeaks on a bass track the other day. Worked ok for what I needed in a couple spots and I just automated the mute on that channel
For me its always a challenge between - what i feel vs. what is fitting to some formats.... I think you can rearrange every song to its planned target.
For vocals, I have an ancient digitech harmonizer which can follow the key from a midi keyboard or just be based on the sung pitch and you can detune the added harmonies. I ALSO have a more modern unit that follows along with your guitar and humanizes by altering the attack time slightly. I use both at the same time. Both are stereo so I have differing reverb or delay on each side and some subtle chorus. It sounds ENORMOUS.
Warren! You need to listen to "nevermind" by the band Valley. It's one of my favorite pop songs of the year. Some special elements that set it apart: Short Choruses, including the chorus at the end. 24 bars instead of 3. Makes it extra addicting, keeping it fresh longer after several repeats. Half length second verse. Gets back to the chorus quickly. False down chorus for last chorus.
Great inspiring speech, i don't remember if you've said it, but if you have to record a choir yourself with your own voice, singing breathy and more intense the same melody makes it sound like different singers when you mix it. I learnt that when i recorded my second singer in life, i noticed she just happened to do it naturally and it had a great sound, i only wished the world would be able to hear our results, but unfortunaly life takes unexpected turns and it is how it is. EVH most likely be happy about it, considered i did my best rock song ever cause i want to show that *Beep* what she said "I don't have time now" too. Also Michael Jackson used this trick a lot. He has this breathy voice to the harmonies and more intensity in the lead melody itself. It's probably an industry standard trick, but as an amateur i had to discover that myself while recording and it really does make quite a difference to vocals that needs harmonies.
I would love to see a collection of song-writing "formulas" like the, "IV-V-IV-V prechorus" trick. Sometimes I get stuck in places on a song where it needs a little variation or spice. A group of ideas to try would help out. It's an odd thing to come up with something original yet familiar enough to be accessible.
Here are some boring facts for you, based on the top ten songs in the UK in 2020 (so far): Average Duration - 3m17 (longest 3m36, shortest 2m53) Average Intro - 10 secs (most common 8/9s, longest 27s, shortest 3s) Average time to Chorus - 38 seconds (most common 48s, 2 songs with chorus straight after intro, longest to chorus 63 secs) Most common structure: Intro, Verse, Pre, Chorus, Verse, Pre, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus (or pre - chorus, usually with some sort of breakdown) Style/Genre - mixture of pop/electropop/disco influenced/rap/ballad/house/whatever. Structurally, most of the songs are quite similar - including only small variations in duration, how long it takes to get to the chorus etc. Stylistically, tempo, instrumentation etc. there are much more pronounced differences. I guess the trick is to write a really good song in your style that has a tight structure and maximum impact in the shortest time.
Leave your FAQ Friday questions below!
I know you're a Bowie geek, so I'll let this one slide, but when you told your Kubrick anecdote, you referred to 2001 as the Space Oddity. Freud is rolling over in his penis-shaped grave.
If I could just find the secret to writing great lyrics. Music I can do lyrics not so much. Any advice on that would be appreciated :)
Would be great to learn about dynamic ranges in both mixing and mastering processes. Do you measure DR and tame individual instruments or busses to a specific degree before blending them? How much DR do you target for in a mix? What about DR levels for mastering considering gear of today's listener?
@@timespace.productions7513 Hahahaha genius! Thanks for that!
@@Producelikeapro No worries! As an autodidact, you're channel is invaluable! & your reverence & humility, in regards to music & all else, is enlightening. Hope you're doing marvelous!
I am a horrible engineer but a pretty strong songwriter. Here's my opinion on how to write good music:
1) Listen to interesting music
2) Learn a little theory so you're not just fumbling in the dark
3) Try to make weird things sound accessible and accessible things sound weird
4) Write what you like, not what you think other people want to hear. In other words, stop worrying about whether it's good and make yourself happy.
I agree! But my vocal coach also gave me this great advice: "Some songs you make for yourself and it's weird. Some songs you make for them, and it's simple."
Hey - that’s really great advice. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
You've expressed the way I've been doing music for years, my friend! Its a happy journey when you play music that honors the creative spirit.
Could not have said it any better!
The feedback is setlled, on point👋👋👋
I've been in the same punk band for 15 years and we've definitely combined punk with surf, ska, synth pop and a bunch of Motown. It is all about finding creative ways to make each genre your own.
I love how you slipped and said "Space Oddity" instead of "Odyssey". Channeling some Bowie :)
Haha indeed! Thanks for noticing!
@@Producelikeapro Freudian Bowie slip lol
Bops Studios haha exactly my friend!!
Finally!!!! enough about gear. Without a song... there is nothing to record. Talk about HOW a producer works with the artist to get the performance and song structure together. A very realsistic duty than just getting another piece of gear.
Michael van Gelder Gelderland Productions LLC the song is king 😉
yes please!!
My thinking on songwriting has always been to sort of let the song decide how and when it wants to end. At some point it will feel like it’s done, and trying to add or subtract from it will make it feel forced. Love the idea of challenging yourself, there’s never anything wrong with that.
When I was a younger man, with no internet and little to reference, I wrote all my best songs.
Rules wrecked me.
Writing 10 min progressive Rock Songs is complicated art, but writing somesthing so smooth that everybody likes it, is an art too. Even if i don´t really listen to Rodio Pop Songs actively, i really like how it´s done.
Whoa! Look at the lighting in this video. This photographer approves. :)
lol it definitely looks smooth
I would love to see how he achieved that look!
@@Emergentministry Looks like a two light setup (not counting the lamp in the background for atmosphere). One warmish and soft key light right above eye level slightly off center to his left. The a brighter cooler light placed well above and behind his right side aimed at the back of his neck.
I've been watching this channel for a little while, but I think this is the most Warren has talked about songwriting. Great topic as I think it might be the hardest thing to do in music. And the most fun.
Warren should definitely talk more about songwriting, I wholly encourage that! Because what use are all these music production skills if the song sucks. The song is the most important thing. It all starts with a good song, then make it a great song (getting structure right, arrangements, fine-funing lyrics, etc.) and then make it magic with the best possible mix and mastering.
Can’t believe you know about Fred and the Fredricksons. Best band ever!
Hahaha so underrated!! Thanks ever so much
"Pop music is not a genre. It is a response" -Hit writer Ross Golan
Listen to the charts. There is EDM, Hip-Hop, Disco, etc. If you want to write a hit you must be a master of song craft/structure. Hits aren't written on accident. Has to be a universally relatable idea that's well executed. Melody is king.
Chords are nice but it's the top line(lyric/melody) that's catchy and contrasting from section to section regardless of chords that's what sticks in people's heads. Structure these days is vastly different than twenty years ago. Pre-Chorus has to be a hook now then even bigger hook in Chorus. Then there is the post Chorus drop which borrows from EDM. You can talk smack all day about pop but try to write a song and get it cut by a major label artist and see how difficult the game really is.
Hi Warren, speaking about multiple takes for choir, I've recently produced a song with the only artist making all the backgrounds, for a "stadium anthem" melody:
- 4 takes singing moving slightly off the mic, from left to right; near mic
- 4 takes as before, but far mic
- 4 takes as before, but with shoulders to the mic, to catch the reflection of the opposite wall
That's my penny. Hope to be useful! :)
Thank you for all your knowledge, as usual!
Fantastic Valerio! That's very useful information!
Thank you for the insight Valerio
lots of really high quality information - thnx Warren
yep!
Thanks ever so much André!
@@GetSongsDone thanks ever so much!
Warren, I just wanted to say that you deserve a statue in rock HOF for this channel! It is a joy listening a pro so candidly discusing his profession, and sharing knowledge. Thank you!!!!
Thanks ever so much Roko!!
Jam packed with top-notch advice and practical, *usable* tips. This is on my pinned list. New to this channel but I'm very impressed!
Awesome, thank you!
Modern radio songs: either write it on a Game Boy or an acoustic guitar and make absolutely sure to sing about getting chucked like a bleating lamb, haha!
A good tune has to have a catchy chorus and decent bridging melodies between parts! Make sure the parts go into each other in a pleasing and interesting way with a throbbing chorus and you can get away with anything! It's definitely a good idea to leave the listener wanting more over dragging it out!
I wish modern music was even a fraction as interesting as Rubber Soul!
Happy to see these again! Always something to learn from the man himself! Cheers, Warren!
I've written 12 albums of "pop" songs of exactly how you define them. Hundreds registered with BMI with sporadic radio play. But I argue that "pop" has switched genres from rock to rap and doesn't use guitars at all. A melody happens around someone else's loop now. It's a totally different market now. When we try to explain songwriting to a younger generation, all we get is "ok boomer, what's your image and marketing strategy? The song is inconsequential.". Thoughts?
I'm not going to say you're wrong, because that would mean invalidating personal experience. I'd just be carefully mentioning, that the markets vary by country, and so do the genres. Despite that though, we have a globally spanning music industry. So if someone says your stuff is dated that doesn't mean it's dated EVERYWHERE. Just look at the billboards for different countries and you get my point. If I dare say, in case you get such a response by a "younger generation member", I do feel terribly sorry for your experience :( I can tell you this is not the default experience around the globe. The guitar being an instrument that augments a song is the opposite of dead. Not even guitar-centric music is dead. 4-chord 80bpm rocknroll with a pentatonic solo might be a declining market however...
I'd go out on a limb and say, it's never about the instruments (in my world, vocals are instruments just as well) but about the melodies first, the flow second, and then some "Zeitgeist" in regards to the currently popular styles third. You can craft melodies onto everything. But without something catchy or intriguing or attention grabbing... the CHOICE of instruments doesn't matter.
@@Khunvyel Guitar is dying a slow death. Gibson on the brink of bankruptcy along with Guitar Center and most music stores. When I talk about the younger generation, it's important because they will steer the music of the future as the older generation (I believe Warren and myself are of similar ages) will become an irrelevant music market to cater to . The last of the stadium rock bands like the Rolling Stones will be rolling their wheelchairs soon while Keith Richards lives through the Apocalypse. I'm not one to switch how I write music just because popular music changed. I'll always stay true to myself and write what I like to hear. Even if no one cares.
Thanks for your comment Jrh007! The song is even more important than ever, whoever said 'The song is inconsequential' does not know what they are talking about! I can tell from a labels point of view, it is are important than ever!
@@Producelikeapro I agree. But you have to admit, a LOT more emphasis is put on image, personal drama (SixNine just came out of jail, wow what a gangsta!), and even the lyrics in modern mumblerap are nothing like OG Tupac or Public Enemy. But I'm a rock/pop guy through and through. Beatles, Jellyfish, Zeppelin, Porcupine Tree, etc... Unfortunately music has been delegated to background workout or shopping mall muzak. Digital earbud candy with no beautiful cover art, lyrics, liner notes, etc. No heart, emotion, or skill with an instrument. Sad for the next generation that didn't experience music how we did.
@@jhopper007 I agree with some of your points, particularly about pop morphing towards rap. Not so convinced that more emphasis on image is anything new; it seems to me that the pendulum swings back and forth on that for mainstream music. I also think the music markets are splitting into more differentiation, particularly due to mainstream media being less and less "mainstream." I've also heard some people (sorry, don't remember the sources) say guitars are coming back; maybe it was a Fender exec or some online retailers. Gibson is a dorked up company that may need some time to fix if it doesn't go bye-bye first. Thanks for making me think about it, I appreciate it and like the comment.
Awesome conversation, Music is free and we musicians who don't want to be labeled should not start to label "This is just Pop" - at the end it's curiosity that keeps us creating every day, so we should not create our own barriers especially when it comes to music - challenge accepted, let's make a Poppy Megadeath Track, why not ? :)
That's incredible, always when I have a question in my mind it get's answered in the next video you post 😂🤘🤘Last week I used your tricks to make louder mixes and it worked, now I'm back in Songwriting and get this top tips here, T H A N K Y O U Warren !!!
This should be playing on a loop in every studio that has a Green Room!
Thanks ever so much Eddie!!
Major props to your son for loving Steely Dan! Very refreshing to know there is at least one teenager in this world with amazing taste!
Great video as always. I have only just notice how nice the lighting is looks. That cold hair light is such a nice touch.
One big reason I love 90s and 00s rock is that it still rocked but fit within the “pop format.” So you’d get songs that would make you wanna bang your head but also sing along
This is irrelevant, but you seem like such a genuinely nice chap. I can imagine making a record with you is a very easy and relaxing experience.
Thanks ever so much!
What a great discussion topic!!! I’m enjoying this type of discussion.
Thanks Bill! I really appreciate it
When I was a teenager I used to love stretching out in 10+ minute songs. Now that I’ve hit my 40s, I’m trying to write 2 minute songs like they did in the 50s. I remember hearing about The Pixies and Frank Black in particular trying to convince a producer that they should have sub-2 minute songs with the same reasoning.
The Cure - Fascination Street: is over 5min long and the vocal does not begin until well over 2min in. We should be learning how to expand our attention span for good music instead of focusing on social media necessities.
Unfotunately, commercial success, in large part, is now tied to social media necessities.
If you're in it for the art and are ok with a niche audience, then awesome, you can do whatever you want. If you want to have a global commercial smash hit, then you need to think about social media and streaming.
Hi Mercylane! I'm a huge fan of the Cure! 'Fascination Street' was only a single in the US and was both remixed and edited down to 4.17 for Radio Format with many DJ's fading in and/or starting it later! Masterpiece, but manipulated for US Radio, they did not use the Album version on the Radio on it's release. I hope that clarifies?
@@Producelikeapro Also a huge fan and fortunate enough to have worked with them. But this was about the "secret to writing great songs" not editing them.
@@mercylanemusic commercial radio has been editing songs for years. Good example is "My Sharona" with the solo edited down. They literally cut the balls out of it. I guess you have to dance with the devil to play that radio game but when are we prepared to say radio doesn't matter anymore? It's more about what they are pushing on TV and social media. Can't escape Taylor Swift's new release on social media right now and I haven't even heard a track off it yet.
@@DoItYourselfMusician yes. well known music is edited for radio and other platforms. I do personally believe its better for an 'Artist' to be an artist first and a promoter second. Write for yourself initially and not the spottily algorithm. Let the song live as it wants and needs to live. If it ends up being a 3.20 with the hook right at the start.. so be it. But that is not always what constitutes a good song. Don't stop believing.
You can do commentary for Cricket Matches...You got that voice... By the way.. Again great quality content! 🔥
Aw shucks! Thanks ever so much Bert! As I'm sure you know I'm a HUGE Cricket fan!
@@Producelikeapro thanks alot for replying..You are a huge inspiration for us..
@@bertcornelius8685 that's very kind of you Bert!
I gotta say, the lighting looks amazing! - Also, thanks for the amazing tips!
I used to worry about string squeaks, until a indie rock hipster at work told me how much he loves that sound, haha. Kind of like how Eddie Kramer loves the console hum and tape noise on the old recordings.
Warren please do more songwriting stuff you inspire us thank you for that
This was one of your most engaging videos yet. Please do more songwriting videos, especially related to pop!
The longer i´m working with music the more i see there´s only a good song or a bad song. you could take a metal song, tame the voice, use other instruments and it´s a pop song. use a singer songwriter song, produce it and it will be edm. at the end the core of a song matters, no matter what instruments you take i think. the melody and structure will make it work.
i dont automate as much in logic i guess cause its slightly more work than in a daw like flstudio(use to use for years). it makes me realize certain people create differently in different daws. like driving differently in a truck around a track than in a racer or on a motorcycle. It makes me realize i should take a second to remember its all about the end result and if i can hear something i need i should create it rather than letting my laziness allow my daw to hinder or alter the music. i wonder if anyone else feels the same.
Love the energy and passion that you inject into these super episodes 👍 absolutely fantastic insight, advice and guidance as usual 🏆 thank you!!!
Thanks ever so much!!
I am not a huge fan of grunge in general however I love some of the unusual chord progressions of Nirvana or Soundgarden.
Great breakdown!
Glad it was helpful!
Its awesome! Thanks& very much appreciated❤🙏!
These videos are always helpful
Me and my mate Amy had to do a choir on a hymn for a community where we live. There was only us two and what we did was just laid down about 4 different harmonies about 4 different times each and it was absolutely gorgeous. What made it great was exactly what you said the slightly out tune feel..the humanness of it all.... Great vid mate keep it up
Music is art, and people don't know what they want or like until the moment they hear it.
Im all for the songwriting episode in FULL. I´d LOVE to see that happening soon! Your videos are awesome Warren and you inspire us all. Massive thanks!
Looking Fw for the songwriting series!!
such great advice dude!
Thanks ever so much! Glad it was helpful!
Something I did was to check out the song structures of the best rock song Grammy award winners of the past 10 years. Very interesting. Particularly to see how Bowie for example destroys the standard structures.
Marko Fahrenheit most of them did follow the standard structure, just one here and there with a slight variation.
I miss the longer songs with intro etc. sooo much.
My choir, i sing trough two different mics going to two different pre amps. And again with two different mics. ( Only have a two chanel interface.) Then i use very much reverb and overdrive on some takes and none on some. And program Ahs or Ohs or Ees on choir synths on long vowels, in the back.
"Flying by the seat of our pants" But it's 2020. Nobody's wearing pants anymore.
One of the best examples of what you mean is Erasure. I remember the album "The Circus" with the massive pop hits "Sometimes" and "It doesn't have to be". But the best songs on that album were "The Circus" and "If I could."
The pop hits are there to work on the radio (OK, just on Spotify now). Other songs on the albums are what make the bands stand out.
It always reminds me of my favorite band OMD. For example, the album "Sugar Tax" had the insane hits "Sailing on the seven seas" and "Pandora's Box." But that was almost pop music. But OMD were never pop. And so on the same album you find Shakespeare in "All that glitters" and missed opportunities with "Speed of light" and loneliness with "Walking on air". All these songs are much better than the singles. But they are not radio friendly.
Bands like OMD never went the easy way. They always had something to say and to express. Of course, McCluskey and Humphreys wrote massive, massive Pop Hits. But their real talent was to get rid of thinking about what others and the music industry want to hear. How else could you explain an album like "Dazzle Ships"? Yes, they still exist despite such albums. And this is what counts.
One last thought: You are absolutely right. You have to make an edit if you want to be played on the radio or on Spotify and if you want to sell your music. The biggest hit worldwide by OMD is "Maid of Orleans". This song would have failed to enter the radio stations and the charts if there wasn't an edit where they removed the strange noise in the beginning. With the noise, the song counts 4:07, without 3:27.
Thanks ever so much for sharing your wonderful insight!!
Great topic and great video Warren !
Thank you !
Did this a lot back in the day: "Single edit", "album version", "Club Mix"
i usually write songs in verse - pre - chorus - verse - pre - chorus - bridge/solo (depends) - chorus - maybe outro. i sometimes don't have a prechorus. i've written a few songs w/o this structure but this is just easy to write.
hey man great lighting
Thanks ever so much!
That's a great topic!
I'm totally with you, Warren. Basically every musician loves The Beatles, but somehow many won't think of them when they talk about Pop music. So this genre has a reputation of being simplistic or hollow.
Whenever I hear this, I very much and decisively disagree with that. Most of the time I feel it is much more of a challenge to write an engaging Pop song unique enough to be recognisable than a 20 minute long, "complex", meandering Prog Rock epic.
This is a great point that many musicians should hear! Please don't hate Pop music, because it is the most diverse and colourful collection of genres out there.
You nailed it about "popular" songs. I would love to see some of the currently talented rock/indie/metal bands nail the radio formula and get their stuff on the air. I know the creamy edge butter is out there on the streaming services but it would be great to see more visibility for these bands. Let's bring back rock and roll!
Love ya, man. Thanks for doing what you do.
Thank you Warren! I actually like string squeaks sometimes! makes it sound "natural". But if they are to loud, indeed turn them down or use a de-esser.
I once recorded my own vocal around 8 times to create a "choir" like effect. I sang in different melody lines, pitch and rooms. Made it sound realistic although it's just only me!
I play extreme metal and I love pop music. I work hard in incorporating the pop structure in my music.
Great advise on songwriting - not much of reason to record a mediocre song. We all get better as we go and learn. MORE please
“Hit the 1 on the dambe”.... What’s a dambe? Also, it would be great if you did a vid about classic chord progressions and leading into chorus/prechorus/bridge etc...
great video Warren. learned some goodies here. bless you sir!
Thanks Warren for this marvelous topics. God bless.
I love this!!!
Thanks ever so much my friend
I use flat strings on all my guitars and basses since I love the 60's guitar/bass sound and it all so helps with toning down the squeaks between chord changes
I love your videos man, I learn so much.... thanks ;-)
Thanks ever so much!
I always try to ask myself 3 questions when I’m making music: 1. Does this music part make me feels something? 2. What does it make me feel? 3. Do I like how it makes me feel?
Dang you know your stuff. Absolutely fantastic.
Thanks ever so much! I really appreciate the complement!
One thing that makes a huge difference trying to layer a bunch of vocal takes from 1 person is changing your voice a little. Don't do all the takes in your normal voice, otherwise it sounds way more obviously that it's just a bunch of layers. I've done this while altering my voice each time (like 6 times, not 48...), so one is maybe just a slight be nasal, the next one is a little deeper and warmer, another one is a bit more throaty, etc. To me it makes it way way more convincing. That way it doesn't all sound like a room full of 10 of the same exact person with the same exact tonal EQ of their voice. That's all along with your suggestions about detuning and delays and all that as well.
I don't use very many Waves plugins, but the DS2 in the Scheps Omni Channel is brilliant for fixing problems. I use it specifically for string squeaks that are popping out a little too much (over fixing them can be its own problem). I also use it to duck masking frequencies (e.g. overlap in a kick and bass) so I'm not carving out something via EQ that I actually want, I'm just pulling it out when the two channels overlap with a sidechain. Plus you can pop in a little bit of saturation, EQ or limiting to further sculpt a sound in a very transparent (or not, if that's what you want) way and keep all the instruments sounding musical (overused term I know, but what's more musical than leaving that 50-70 Hz in the bass to reinforce the fundamental of the harmony when the kick isn't playing, but duck it when you need the kick to boom or vice versa?). There are a million plugins to add character, and I use a bunch, but I don't know of a better utility plugin.
The album I'm making currently focuses on telling a specific story, so depending on the moment in that story, the music can be proggy, bluesy, ambient or metal - if the atmosphere calls for it. I think it's a tremendous way to learn styles you wouldn't normally touch, and by learning which, you can improve your songwriting in any style you pick up. I also like to keep it simple (or I'm just unable to play complex stuff xD), so even if the song turns into a 10+ minute, progressive monster, it's still...fairly easy to grasp
this channel continues to add great value and i am ever so thankful for these marvelous ideas and methods
Thanks ever so much for your wonderfully kind words! I’m so glad to be able to help! Have a marvellous time recording, many thanks Warren
Structuring good transitions from verse to chorus or verse, bridge, chorus makes for interesting listening and fun creating and play. I like to change keys to keep things challenging too.
another trick for layering a vocal is too pitch a double up slightly and pitch another double or dub down slightly and it will make the main vocal stick out and seem wider depending how its executed. I learned that from Warren as well. haha.
Best intro of the world: Locomotive Breath by Jethro Tull. 😊
😐
Would love a full episode on song writing!
Definitely!
Absolutely. Warren was dropping gold nuggets in this video as always and demystifying song structure and concepts can ignite so much creativity.
Here’s a suggestion for recording a choir with one person... I had to create a choir/group of monks chanting. I recorded the same part each in several different keys, and then tuned them all back to the original key. The varied timbers of the vocals at different pitches stayed unique after adjusting each to match the key-so each voice sounded like a different person. It came out nicely.
The biggest key is, listen to, and more importantly, love incredibly well written songs with huge catchy melodies. If you don't love these songs your brain isn't going to gravitate towards big soaring melodies. Listen to a lot of Jazz. I hated jazz but everyone said you have to listen to jazz because it's the most sophisticated music. Jazz music of all kinds opens up your melodic pallette like nothing else. Just play your instrument instead of trying to play something. Enjoy playing your instruments. MEDITATE using a mantra. This is the hugest way to access your creative subconscious mind. All good music is created from the subconscious mind and it is accessed through stillness. Regular meditation 30 mins a day once or twice will bring deep peace to your mind and then all of your musical experience will be able to mingle with the subconscious super conscious mind and collective consciousness. Get out of the way of the song writing itself.
For lyrics, read fiction, relax and let the song and words come to you.
Hooks are the way to go 👍 thanks Warren 🤘
Hi Warren, you're right on the money about turning down the squeaking. I had an acoustic guitar with fresh strings recorded with a SDC & a 2 fingered melody line was squeaking all over the place. I messed around forever with deessers but all they did was change the tone of the squeak, the fundamental was still prominent as ever. I had to use a fair amount of clip gain reduction to really make a difference. It was painstaking & time consuming but faced with the same situation again, that would be my go to option.
Or maybe right hand muting?
sorry I should of led with left hand maybe a little tense. Just an alternative thought to tech. :)
jackie turner yes, that's a good approach but would've made the part sound very robotic. The notes were leading into each other. I wouldn't use brand new strings on a recording again...let them lose some of the zing! 😀
Warren, I love the analogy with 2001! I do agree on setting boundaries forces you to work harder and hopefully be more creative! stay safe!
Nice Warren. Showing some love for The Cure. Great song writing. I would argue The Smiths are up there too or dare I say it, Killing Joke. And this is coming from a Metal head lol. Great video and discussion my friend.
You always give solid (and experienced) advice. Thank you!!!
thanks warren always great info
I'm currently doing this genre fusion of Salsa and Rock, but rock is drawing more from my love and passion of Emo and Post hardcore. So it's more like Salsa Punk :) I'm absolutely loving it XD
Love the Cure! Push is my favorite! What a great line of thought you've laid out here. I have thought through this line of thought (pop writing for your own authentic genre) for quite sometime. I think the world we live in today has little room for songs that require long listening stints. I think one must comprise their authenticity in writing into shorter durations of time. The good news is young people like the organic sounds of old. They want that element into this over processed age of sound. Great channel and thank you for giving your gift to us in small pieces at a time. Cheers!
Love Will Tear Us Apart is my favourite 'pop' song, the melody hooks you, the dark lyrics keep you coming back. I love Joy Division's entire discography but to have a song that lives on in pop culture is super inspiring as a songwriter.
Exactly David! You are proving my point 100%!!
@@Producelikeapro Thanks Warren for everything you do, my mixes and music inspiration have never been better!
thanks for your thoughts about song structure! Helpful! greetings from Austria :)
I totally agree that it’s a challenge to work within the boundaries of rules, like e.g., anyone can B.S., but on the other hand it’s rather difficult to be philosophically certain (I.e. logically certain). Maybe that’s what makes a great artist; they seem like they’re breaking all the rules while conforming otherwise...?
Thanks for answering my question about string squeeks Warren! Its been a huge problem for me. I just bought the waves de-esser and Scheps omni this past weekend too. im gonna get to work on it
I like much when talking about freedom on a song🔥🔥🔥🔥
I used your clearmountain de-essing trick to kill some squeaks on a bass track the other day. Worked ok for what I needed in a couple spots and I just automated the mute on that channel
For me its always a challenge between - what i feel vs. what is fitting to some formats.... I think you can rearrange every song to its planned target.
Ok... who else thinks Fred and The Fredericksons actually sounds like a good retro band name?
Haha I would love to hear their new album! Haha
@@Producelikeapro working on the first single "Yabba Dabba Doo-Wop" as we speak.
Kevin Reagan hahahahaha genius!!
For vocals, I have an ancient digitech harmonizer which can follow the key from a midi keyboard or just be based on the sung pitch and you can detune the added harmonies. I ALSO have a more modern unit that follows along with your guitar and humanizes by altering the attack time slightly. I use both at the same time.
Both are stereo so I have differing reverb or delay on each side and some subtle chorus. It sounds ENORMOUS.
Warren! You need to listen to "nevermind" by the band Valley. It's one of my favorite pop songs of the year. Some special elements that set it apart:
Short Choruses, including the chorus at the end. 24 bars instead of 3. Makes it extra addicting, keeping it fresh longer after several repeats.
Half length second verse. Gets back to the chorus quickly.
False down chorus for last chorus.
Great inspiring speech, i don't remember if you've said it, but if you have to record a choir yourself with your own voice, singing breathy and more intense the same melody makes it sound like different singers when you mix it. I learnt that when i recorded my second singer in life, i noticed she just happened to do it naturally and it had a great sound, i only wished the world would be able to hear our results, but unfortunaly life takes unexpected turns and it is how it is. EVH most likely be happy about it, considered i did my best rock song ever cause i want to show that *Beep* what she said "I don't have time now" too. Also Michael Jackson used this trick a lot. He has this breathy voice to the harmonies and more intensity in the lead melody itself. It's probably an industry standard trick, but as an amateur i had to discover that myself while recording and it really does make quite a difference to vocals that needs harmonies.
I would love to see a collection of song-writing "formulas" like the, "IV-V-IV-V prechorus" trick. Sometimes I get stuck in places on a song where it needs a little variation or spice. A group of ideas to try would help out. It's an odd thing to come up with something original yet familiar enough to be accessible.
Google is your friend.
Enjoyed this one, Warren! In my opinion, you always give realistic advice on the topic you’re covering. Thanks as always for sharing your knowledge!
Thanks ever so much Leo! I appreciate that!
Here are some boring facts for you, based on the top ten songs in the UK in 2020 (so far):
Average Duration - 3m17 (longest 3m36, shortest 2m53)
Average Intro - 10 secs (most common 8/9s, longest 27s, shortest 3s)
Average time to Chorus - 38 seconds (most common 48s, 2 songs with chorus straight after intro, longest to chorus 63 secs)
Most common structure: Intro, Verse, Pre, Chorus, Verse, Pre, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus (or pre - chorus, usually with some sort of breakdown)
Style/Genre - mixture of pop/electropop/disco influenced/rap/ballad/house/whatever.
Structurally, most of the songs are quite similar - including only small variations in duration, how long it takes to get to the chorus etc.
Stylistically, tempo, instrumentation etc. there are much more pronounced differences.
I guess the trick is to write a really good song in your style that has a tight structure and maximum impact in the shortest time.