Thanks. The way I understand it is this. Pin down means that the mass will be distributed more evenly because you drill holes on both sides of the core's axis. Pin up means that you remove material just from one side which leads to asymmetry and more dynamic reaction. So, pin down should result in more predictable trajectory (assuming that the other parameters are the same) because you let the core do its thing.
There’s a big difference in pin to pap between your pin up vs pin down balls. For this test to be truly accurate, only the angles should change, and pin to pap should be the same. Nate dawg’ a pin down pin to pap was 5 5/8, while his pin down was 4 1/2. Being over 1” difference, that could play a much bigger role in ball shape than the drilling angle.
Absolutely blew my mind. Thanks for answering this question for me. My jackal ghost is pin up and my PSO drilled my golden jackal pin down. I have a higher rev to speed so it totally makes sense now.
For me i would always use pin up on the fresh. Pin down is a nice option for better control later on after transition, but i know how ro just move over a few boards and be fine with pin up. I saw someone once struggle cuz they were changing balls but he was still refusing to move. The ball is only a tool.
That's the best explanation and illustration I've seen on the difference between pin up and pin down when to use on different conditions and for the different bowler with different rev rates thank you
If I want to bowl straighter shot, meaning I'm lefthanded and I like to stand 20 board. I throw between the second and third dot on the lane. I use the black smoke for this shot
For those of us that can't afford two of each bowling ball, what about something in between? I have a Physix drilled with the pin in the ring finger that I like a lot.
I'm a newbie just joined a senior league at my local alley, bought my first ball i'm right handed my pin is to the left of my index finger hole. what could i expect from this ball, its a 14lb storm tropical surge
What about a low ball speed and low RPM drill layout on hybrid cover stock? After my heart surgery I’ll drop my ball weight to a 14#. I don’t quite grasp the whole hole layout patterns yet. I’m fairly new to the sport with 8 in house leagues underneath me.
@@jrproshop would y’all have any suggestions on Two balls. Lol keep it clean. As of right now, the Two I use are way out of date. They are retired. They are the Hammer Curve and the Roto Grip Asylum. Both are 16# and pull at my chest where I have my titanium breast plate attached. The surgery left me with less power in my whole approach and swing. Any help would be awesome. And would it be better to stay with in a brand or mixing be a good option?
So what about pin placement on both up and down? So a breakdown on pin up and to the right, mid, or above certain fingers. And same for pin down. These are questions I've always had and never got a straight answer to. If you answer, Thanks in advance.
Typically, the higher the pin above the fingers the sharper the reaction, lower the pin below the fingers the smoother the reaction, pin more to the right for a right hander would make the reaction earlier and farther to the left for a right hander would make the reaction later. Hope this answers your question !
If the back ends are dry, and the hook is hard to control on the fresh, the pin down drilling helps to stay in control of the pocket. When the shot starts to transition, switch to the pin up; it's just a matter of when is the right time to do that. For a 3 game league, that's usually late in the second or early in the third game, depending on who is on the lane with you. See if Jungo has something else to add or change. Perhaps he'll respond to this.
Now I can tell the difference in between pin up and down. My son is right hand and I saw his Brunswick Twist is not either pin up or down. The pin approx. 1" beside the ring finger, what does it mean to the ball motion?
Will the hook potential of boards change from a solid - hybrid and a pearl cover ball --- or will it be close to what you said aprox 6 boards difference?
I have been away from bowling for a while and I used to have my ball drilled pin out is this the same as pin up or do I need to learn all the new terms? Thank you
Pin out was just a term for how far the pin was from the cg on the bowling ball, doesn't affect ball reaction. So to start out I would go with a pin up as to get the most hook potential out of which ever ball you decide to get.
@@jrproshop I am trying to get back into bowling and having writs issues trying to and I have seen some pros drill the ring finger a bit lower than your normal way of drilling like in an offset location not sure if that makes sense..Thx
This might be a stupid question but if you're a thumbless bowler, couldn't your ball technically be pin up or pin down depending on which way you grab the ball? Thanks
I'm a 181 average bowler with 15-17 mph ball speed and lower revs. I just bought a 15 lb Jackal Flash to replace my worn out Black Widow Nasty. My Nasty is a 14 lb pin down ball and I cannot get the thing to hook at all, would I be better off pin up on the flash?
Hmm, I would say finger tip is much more common than conventional for league bowlers, but as far as your question goes, the pin placement is all dependant on how that particular person rolls the ball regardless if they are conventional/ finger tip/ two handed etc
I'm planning on adding a few more balls, right now i have 2 hoping to add 1 or 2 more this year, but different coverstock. Would you recommend using the same layout or would it be beneficial to have one be a pin down while the others are pin up
Every video I see about a topic like this involves higher speed players. What would be the difference for someone who can only bowl at a maximum of 10 mph? I'm in a wheelchair and get 8.4-8.6 mph at 14#, and am currently trying 12# and am getting 8.8-9.5 mph. Being stationary, dropping weight really doesn't add all that much speed. Frustrated at averaging
With your lower speed, I’d try to stay away from pin up layouts, as they have a tendency to stand up and hook earlier than a pin down ball. Depending on the ball, you may also want to consider a short pin layout (around 2” from pin to PAP) in order to cut down on the amount of hook, and help control that hook as well.
@@jrproshop I appreciate that detailed and prompt response. Someone close to me had mentioned the same term (short pin) and your remark above gives me interest in trying this sort of layout. Every ball I have is pin-up because it was just assumed that my previous (walking) equipment was the way to go once I started in the wheelchair. A half dozen balls over less than two years, I'm ready to try that, and I thank you.
what do you think the differences would be for a pin up to pin down for a no thumb bowler without weight or balance holes? the only mass being taken form the core is from the two fingers. I am yet to drill up some balls for my self and try it out but I have herd different answers on the topic. I don't know if anyone has a defined answer to this. now that the two handed pin down with a weight hole layout is illegal is there a point to drilling pin down for no thumb bowlers?
Hey Fox Bowling! Awesome question, I don't think there would be much of a difference at all between a pin placement slightly above the fingers or below for a no thumb bowler, we have found that the pin to pap distance has a much greater effect for ball motion for no thumb bowlers. For example a shorter pin layout of 1" to 2.5" will lay the core down and give that smooth controllable shape that will mimic a pin down layout for a bowler with a thumb hole. Also if you wanted to increase the hook potential and back end motion, we suggest a 4"-5" pin to pap and drilling 3.5" deep in the fingers holes to increase that differential. Hope this helps!
Love the videos but concerned about the asymmetrical testing done with the Physix. The pin down ball placed the PSA in an extremely weak position with the 100deg drill angle, promotes length thru decreases flare thru the heads. The pin up utilizes a 50deg angle (earlier flaring) & a more unstable pin to pap creating more flare. Whether sum of the angles or VLS you've got to maintain the same PAP to Pin/PSA distances for an accurate test. The difference in flare shouldn't have been this apparent.
Are there some guys who rotate the ball, 90 degrees, sideways? I remembered an old AMF Strikeline ball. Black with a thin red line around it. One of them could be sitting in an old shop shelf, somewhere...? I'm talking 1960s....lol I believe Brunswick overtook that AMF corporation, in the world of bowling?
I’m a two handed bowler, mostly play between 5-10 and drive the ball on the right side of the lanes, I can make simple adjustments but want a ball I can control the spin but still play aggressive. Ball speed usually around 18-20 but still love to have the hook but of course keep the control while play aggressive. Which is better pin up or pin down ?
First of all hello, my pso told me not unless I am a tournament bowler it doesn't matter so he didn't do a PAP analysis on me. So I went somewhere else and the pro shop operator found my PAP when he looked at my other ball,it was way different, so I bought different bowling balls from my new pro shop operator and things got better real quick. I've been bowling about almost 3 years, so technically doesn't really matter if you find your PAP or not. Some people can bowling for 20 and 30 years and don't even know what I'm talking about. So if you guys would respond, tell me if it's important whether you lead player tournament player whatever. Thank you for your response. Keep up the good bowling ball analysis content. Always watching young guys. The guys are great fun analytical.
@@jrproshop no, i throw a conspiracy thats pin down and that ball crosses all board almost un-usable even during the first game. My dad who i share basically the same excat grip (which is awesome because we can swap different orbs when ever we'd like) has the same ball as pin up and that one i can use for 2 games with getting great length. Im still fairly new to bowling and been doing much research and also working on my game as well. Im hoping to be able to use the pin down ball more often since it was a sought after ball for a while and dad decided to surpsie me with it as a "Old Man" gift lol
Well research shows pin down hooks more then pin up so it’s weird wen I see people say pin up hooks more ! I just got the DV8 hell raiser drilled &bowled just now and it didn’t hook much . It could be how I’m bowling or Sumn but it’s weird
I'm still using some balls from the early 2000's and late 90's with hundreds of games on them. Probably don't work as well as new but I just clean them occasionally with a cleaner and they keep on hooking.
Good advice gave me ideas for future equipment. Physix, Astro, Phase 3 happy now . Hey Jordan what pearl would you suggest for high rev.slower speed . Keep my speed up good things happen. Thanks.
Hey Anthony, thanks for the comment! I would suggest something with a smaller core that would give you a little more length such as the IQ emerald, or the Hustle AU.
Yes thanks Jordan. IQ emarled had my eye on that or Idol Pearl. Lot of my friends have IQ emarled especially when lanes are toast. Cool Thanks again. 😃👍
hi I am a league bowler, could you guys recommend a ball that you would say is similar to a marvel pearl? I am currently running a phaze 2 and intense but my marvel pearl needs replacing soon and haven't been successful in finding one in my 3 ball bag.
more length but overall more hook on the dry, good to know cause i have my electrify hybrid pin up i actually didnt know the pin up till i got the ball drilled, but now i know its more length and more overall hook. thanks guys but i do like the pin up too. im not a big rev player, i throw 15 mph but maybe i can try a pin up for a stronger ball if i go to a tournament or something
Thanks. The way I understand it is this. Pin down means that the mass will be distributed more evenly because you drill holes on both sides of the core's axis. Pin up means that you remove material just from one side which leads to asymmetry and more dynamic reaction. So, pin down should result in more predictable trajectory (assuming that the other parameters are the same) because you let the core do its thing.
Correct
There’s a big difference in pin to pap between your pin up vs pin down balls. For this test to be truly accurate, only the angles should change, and pin to pap should be the same. Nate dawg’ a pin down pin to pap was 5 5/8, while his pin down was 4 1/2. Being over 1” difference, that could play a much bigger role in ball shape than the drilling angle.
That I'm worry about that part for fingers holes
I'm thinking that the 4 1/2 is a typo and it's probably 5 1/2
Absolutely blew my mind. Thanks for answering this question for me. My jackal ghost is pin up and my PSO drilled my golden jackal pin down. I have a higher rev to speed so it totally makes sense now.
For me i would always use pin up on the fresh. Pin down is a nice option for better control later on after transition, but i know how ro just move over a few boards and be fine with pin up. I saw someone once struggle cuz they were changing balls but he was still refusing to move. The ball is only a tool.
That's the best explanation and illustration I've seen on the difference between pin up and pin down when to use on different conditions and for the different bowler with different rev rates thank you
If I want to bowl straighter shot, meaning I'm lefthanded and I like to stand 20 board. I throw between the second and third dot on the lane. I use the black smoke for this shot
For those of us that can't afford two of each bowling ball, what about something in between? I have a Physix drilled with the pin in the ring finger that I like a lot.
Great video, it was informative and the background music was popping off
I'm a newbie just joined a senior league at my local alley, bought my first ball i'm right handed my pin is to the left of my index finger hole. what could i expect from this ball, its a 14lb storm tropical surge
What about a low ball speed and low RPM drill layout on hybrid cover stock? After my heart surgery I’ll drop my ball weight to a 14#. I don’t quite grasp the whole hole layout patterns yet. I’m fairly new to the sport with 8 in house leagues underneath me.
Hey Leon! It's more about the core numbers and core shape for the drilling layouts than coverstock type
@@jrproshop would y’all have any suggestions on Two balls. Lol keep it clean. As of right now, the Two I use are way out of date. They are retired. They are the Hammer Curve and the Roto Grip Asylum. Both are 16# and pull at my chest where I have my titanium breast plate attached. The surgery left me with less power in my whole approach and swing. Any help would be awesome. And would it be better to stay with in a brand or mixing be a good option?
Can you guys talk about full roller layouts
So what about pin placement on both up and down? So a breakdown on pin up and to the right, mid, or above certain fingers. And same for pin down. These are questions I've always had and never got a straight answer to. If you answer, Thanks in advance.
Typically, the higher the pin above the fingers the sharper the reaction, lower the pin below the fingers the smoother the reaction, pin more to the right for a right hander would make the reaction earlier and farther to the left for a right hander would make the reaction later. Hope this answers your question !
@@jrproshop it did thanks
For normal bowler play with house pattern which pin up or down you will recommend?
If the back ends are dry, and the hook is hard to control on the fresh, the pin down drilling helps to stay in control of the pocket. When the shot starts to transition, switch to the pin up; it's just a matter of when is the right time to do that. For a 3 game league, that's usually late in the second or early in the third game, depending on who is on the lane with you. See if Jungo has something else to add or change. Perhaps he'll respond to this.
Now I can tell the difference in between pin up and down. My son is right hand and I saw his Brunswick Twist is not either pin up or down. The pin approx. 1" beside the ring finger, what does it mean to the ball motion?
It would depend on where his PAP is exactly, but generally having the pin there provides a controllable amount of hook.
@@jrproshop I am not sure the PAP but I get the general idea what to expected. Thanks.
Will the hook potential of boards change from a solid - hybrid and a pearl cover ball --- or will it be close to what you said aprox 6 boards difference?
Yea it'll still be close to 6 boards of difference
I have been away from bowling for a while and I used to have my ball drilled pin out is this the same as pin up or do I need to learn all the new terms? Thank you
Hey Jeff, great question, yea you will need to learn the new terms, those old terms are referring to things that are irrelevant in today's game.
@@jrproshop what’s the answer?
Okay if pin out is no longer relevant what would give me the same characteristics pin up or pin down? Thank you in advance
Pin out was just a term for how far the pin was from the cg on the bowling ball, doesn't affect ball reaction. So to start out I would go with a pin up as to get the most hook potential out of which ever ball you decide to get.
What is your guys opinion on drilling the ring finger a bit down from conventional finger drills?
Hey Alph! Can you explain your question a bit further ?
@@jrproshop I am trying to get back into bowling and having writs issues trying to and I have seen some pros drill the ring finger a bit lower than your normal way of drilling like in an offset location not sure if that makes sense..Thx
@@Alph12 Sarge Easter grip?
Regained sound at 4:55
This might be a stupid question but if you're a thumbless bowler, couldn't your ball technically be pin up or pin down depending on which way you grab the ball? Thanks
I'm a 181 average bowler with 15-17 mph ball speed and lower revs. I just bought a 15 lb Jackal Flash to replace my worn out Black Widow Nasty. My Nasty is a 14 lb pin down ball and I cannot get the thing to hook at all, would I be better off pin up on the flash?
Yep for sure, pin up to maximize hook potential
I’m a 2 hander, huge revs and about 15-16.5 mph. Got a purple hammer urethane, which orientation would I see more success?
Does the RG of your ball play a role in determining pin location?
Is it advisable to
pin down drill Symmetrical Ball ?
Do you need to rip the cover off the ball to use a pin down. I’m a tweener but don’t throw hard.
does the placement of the pin make any difference if you use a regular grip instead of finger tip
What do you mean by regular grip?
@@jrproshop regular grip not finger tip a lot of league bowlers use conventional or a regular grip in their ball
Hmm, I would say finger tip is much more common than conventional for league bowlers, but as far as your question goes, the pin placement is all dependant on how that particular person rolls the ball regardless if they are conventional/ finger tip/ two handed etc
What would the reaction be for the pin to be by the thumb hole?
I'm planning on adding a few more balls, right now i have 2 hoping to add 1 or 2 more this year, but different coverstock. Would you recommend using the same layout or would it be beneficial to have one be a pin down while the others are pin up
Different cores and different covers. Going with the same layout wouldn't be a bad idea
Lost sound at 3:26
3 yr old video, but will it not matter for a 2 hander or no thumb bowler cause the thumb hole isn't drillerd?
Every video I see about a topic like this involves higher speed players. What would be the difference for someone who can only bowl at a maximum of 10 mph? I'm in a wheelchair and get 8.4-8.6 mph at 14#, and am currently trying 12# and am getting 8.8-9.5 mph. Being stationary, dropping weight really doesn't add all that much speed. Frustrated at averaging
With your lower speed, I’d try to stay away from pin up layouts, as they have a tendency to stand up and hook earlier than a pin down ball. Depending on the ball, you may also want to consider a short pin layout (around 2” from pin to PAP) in order to cut down on the amount of hook, and help control that hook as well.
@@jrproshop I appreciate that detailed and prompt response. Someone close to me had mentioned the same term (short pin) and your remark above gives me interest in trying this sort of layout. Every ball I have is pin-up because it was just assumed that my previous (walking) equipment was the way to go once I started in the wheelchair. A half dozen balls over less than two years, I'm ready to try that, and I thank you.
what do you think the differences would be for a pin up to pin down for a no thumb bowler without weight or balance holes? the only mass being taken form the core is from the two fingers. I am yet to drill up some balls for my self and try it out but I have herd different answers on the topic. I don't know if anyone has a defined answer to this. now that the two handed pin down with a weight hole layout is illegal is there a point to drilling pin down for no thumb bowlers?
Hey Fox Bowling! Awesome question, I don't think there would be much of a difference at all between a pin placement slightly above the fingers or below for a no thumb bowler, we have found that the pin to pap distance has a much greater effect for ball motion for no thumb bowlers. For example a shorter pin layout of 1" to 2.5" will lay the core down and give that smooth controllable shape that will mimic a pin down layout for a bowler with a thumb hole. Also if you wanted to increase the hook potential and back end motion, we suggest a 4"-5" pin to pap and drilling 3.5" deep in the fingers holes to increase that differential. Hope this helps!
Hi what about drilling ring finger into the pin? How will that differ from pin up or pin down?
Right in between! Little smoother than a pin up and a little sharper than a pin down
@@jrproshop im a 2 handed bowler. will there be a drastic difference on house shots for pin in ring finger vs pin up/pin down?
my pso drilled my new purple hammer with pin in ring finger
makes sense. thanks
I love the wild streak. Have 2 pin up, one pin down, and a wild streak tour u
Love the videos but concerned about the asymmetrical testing done with the Physix. The pin down ball placed the PSA in an extremely weak position with the 100deg drill angle, promotes length thru decreases flare thru the heads. The pin up utilizes a 50deg angle (earlier flaring) & a more unstable pin to pap creating more flare. Whether sum of the angles or VLS you've got to maintain the same PAP to Pin/PSA distances for an accurate test. The difference in flare shouldn't have been this apparent.
Are there some guys who rotate the ball, 90 degrees, sideways?
I remembered an old AMF Strikeline ball. Black with a thin red line around it. One of them could be sitting in an old shop shelf, somewhere...? I'm talking 1960s....lol
I believe Brunswick overtook that AMF corporation, in the world of bowling?
im a 2 handed bowler. I bowl 14mph. do you suggest pin up or pin down for me? thanks
What is your rev rate
I’m a two handed bowler, mostly play between 5-10 and drive the ball on the right side of the lanes, I can make simple adjustments but want a ball I can control the spin but still play aggressive. Ball speed usually around 18-20 but still love to have the hook but of course keep the control while play aggressive. Which is better pin up or pin down ?
Pin down might be a good option for you, it'll be much smoother and hook a little less, more controllable for playing straight up the lane
TELL JUNGO TO CUT HIS TOE NAILS....LOL DAMN FOUL LINE!!! LOL
Hahah! Trying to get as close to the pins as possible, need all the help I can get 😂😂
Great stuff keep em coming
What about weaker cover stock balls on burnt lane league conditions?
First of all hello, my pso told me not unless I am a tournament bowler it doesn't matter so he didn't do a PAP analysis on me. So I went somewhere else and the pro shop operator found my PAP when he looked at my other ball,it was way different, so I bought different bowling balls from my new pro shop operator and things got better real quick. I've been bowling about almost 3 years, so technically doesn't really matter if you find your PAP or not. Some people can bowling for 20 and 30 years and don't even know what I'm talking about. So if you guys would respond, tell me if it's important whether you lead player tournament player whatever. Thank you for your response. Keep up the good bowling ball analysis content. Always watching young guys. The guys are great fun analytical.
So weird becuase my pin down hooks a ton and yet my pin up hooks less and gives me more length
Same ball?
@@jrproshop no, i throw a conspiracy thats pin down and that ball crosses all board almost un-usable even during the first game. My dad who i share basically the same excat grip (which is awesome because we can swap different orbs when ever we'd like) has the same ball as pin up and that one i can use for 2 games with getting great length. Im still fairly new to bowling and been doing much research and also working on my game as well. Im hoping to be able to use the pin down ball more often since it was a sought after ball for a while and dad decided to surpsie me with it as a "Old Man" gift lol
Ahh interesting, may have a lot do with where the pin is in relation to you pap on each ball
Well research shows pin down hooks more then pin up so it’s weird wen I see people say pin up hooks more ! I just got the DV8 hell raiser drilled &bowled just now and it didn’t hook much . It could be how I’m bowling or Sumn but it’s weird
What's the average life span for new equipment to keep it live.
15 years.
I'm still using some balls from the early 2000's and late 90's with hundreds of games on them. Probably don't work as well as new but I just clean them occasionally with a cleaner and they keep on hooking.
Good advice gave me ideas for future equipment. Physix, Astro, Phase 3 happy now . Hey Jordan what pearl would you suggest for high rev.slower speed . Keep my speed up good things happen. Thanks.
Hey Anthony, thanks for the comment! I would suggest something with a smaller core that would give you a little more length such as the IQ emerald, or the Hustle AU.
Yes thanks Jordan. IQ emarled had my eye on that or Idol Pearl. Lot of my friends have IQ emarled especially when lanes are toast. Cool Thanks again. 😃👍
Бабки просто сыпятся, успевайте только лутать) но сильно не заигрывайтесь а то можно и слить все!
Finally, someone who understands pin up vs pin down.
I might take my notes to make perfect ball
Find bowling coach see my style is pin up or pin down
hi I am a league bowler, could you guys recommend a ball that you would say is similar to a marvel pearl? I am currently running a phaze 2 and intense but my marvel pearl needs replacing soon and haven't been successful in finding one in my 3 ball bag.
Idol pearl!
more length but overall more hook on the dry, good to know cause i have my electrify hybrid pin up i actually didnt know the pin up till i got the ball drilled, but now i know its more length and more overall hook. thanks guys but i do like the pin up too. im not a big rev player, i throw 15 mph but maybe i can try a pin up for a stronger ball if i go to a tournament or something
Yea if you're not a big rev player with decent speed most of your balls should be pin up
@@jrproshop oh ok I think my rev rate is high 300 or something but I like pin up
Lol nice fake copyright strike
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