The Most Toxic Love Triangle in TV History (The Office)
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- In The Office, Jim and Pam are relationship goals until you look at things from Karen's perspective.
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Obviously Jim was a dick in this relationship, but I don't think the show really tried to make me think Jim was the good guy. And Idk, it feels weird to me when fans try to paint characters as wholly good or bad. It feels real that both Jim and Pam have good and bad moments. I know plenty of people that are generally good people who have fucked up in relationships. Yeah, sometimes the person who does nothing wrong get shafted, that happens. That made it feel real. Jim is more interesting as a character that fucks up than having it all figured out. That would be boring. J&P were at their most boring when they were doing well.
i agree completely. I respect the modern 'reevaluation' of jim and pam, but the reason they were compelling as characters is because they were flawed.
Totally agree - to add, I think the show shows us all of this pretty well, including the fact that Karen was not treated right, was both sad and furious about it and righteous in that reaction, when we meet her again in later seasons. She doesn't make it a big deal, but everyone involved is very aware that Jim and Pam acted pretty shitty towards her. Doesn't make them bad people or their relationship less valuable, but Karen's allowed to not like them even though they are the show's protagonists. Always appreciated the depth and dimensions there.
@@DeutschFuerEuch I really appreciate the episode where Pam goes and sees Karen. Not only did I like the fact that the show portrays Karen as someone who was able to move on and not have that keep her from improving her life, and she clearly found a place of happiness. Too many shows would make her bitter to the very end. She even has a good moment with Pam showing her maturity and the fact that she realizes it was more of Jim's problems that this all happened and didn't dump it all on Pam (and we already get to see her rightfully dress down Jim).
I also think from a narrative stand point it was done to balance out the perceived sacrifice invested in the relationship between Jim and Pam. Pam having previously given up a fiancé in Roy, (who was flawed but clearly loved Pam) it created a perception from the fans that Pam was kind of selfish.
By sort of reversing the roles with Karen and Jim’s (Roy) it balances out and they seem more like a couple who was DESTINED to be and Roy and Karen were simply detours on the fated journey.
Karen was a classic rebound. Who hasn't had their heart broken and then ended up with someone wrong for them without even realizing it? It doesn't mean that person isn't great and deserving of love, they were just unlucky enough to fall for someone who hasn't healed. I think in a real world sense Jim did hurt her feelings, but he probably didn't even realize how bad he was fucking up just by towing her along. People are flawed, so the best written characters need to be too. Karen was probably the better choice, but that's not how love works.
Karen's biggest problem is that she's a normal person in a clown world show lol. I always felt like that was part of the joke. And to that end, I think Karen and Jim were in different places in life, and also like I think Jim didn't like the city. It's interesting.
@robertnope1993 oh yeah, I remember Charles was a little bit more serious and stuff, but he made sense. David Wallace was perfect
@robertnope1993totally agreed. If you watch the show as an adult, you’re like.. I mean, Charles can be a bit much, sure, but he’s exactly who that person would be in real life. Also, working with someone like Jim or Michael would be irl torture lol
🎉ùu uujjhuh ukij 😊 obI ibhuh🎉I hIuhuu jgu ih9🎉i
Frrr. Jim def didn’t like the city
@robertnope1993frrr😂😂😂
Jim was out there with main character syndrome, doing whatever he wanted, hurting anyone, just to get his happy ever after.
He got the happy ever after precisely because he was the, or a, main character. It's not really a syndrome when it's true unfortunately.
art imitating life tbh
Everyone on Scranton Dundler Mifflin are the main characters
This was true early on here but it really got turned up to 11 by the last couple seasons and felt really unsatisfactory how they basically ended up conceding the worst of the 'Behind every great man' nonsense and sentenced Pam to housewife life (Something she very clearly and even outwardly resented) Also amplifying the point she was terrible as an artist which is *also* quite misogynistic: Jim? Crazy talented ready to be a successful millionaire with his cool business. Pam? Can only move Michael Scott as an artist and literally nobody else.
When Charles appeared it was a wake up call for Jim only for Charles to leave
Karen's only true mistake imo (which mostly just condenses your examples) was being in a relationship with someone who was not on the same maturity level as her and rarely ever on the same page as her, while trying to get him to pick up the slack instead of accepting she just picked the wrong guy. Her personal flavor of "I can fix him." 😔
Pretending to get drunk with someone so that you can hook up with them when they are hammered is fucked up, and it’s how Karen got Jim 😂
@@DABA2024that’s not what happened but you have posted this same comment claiming this at least 10 times on this video. What a bizarre thing to focus on. Get help for your weird fetish and move on.
@@DABA2024 Is it ever explicitly stated that they actually hooked up that time? I understand its deliberately ambiguous and open for interpretation but i thought she just drove him home.
@@DABA2024I never interpreted that as they hooked up, cause I don’t think Karen would take advantage like that. Now maybe a little manipulation as Jim wakes up the next morning and thinks, hey, she’s alright.
@@DABA2024you’re dropping this same comment in every thread. You don’t have to keep tearing Karen down, she moved on 😂
Did people ever think Karen did anything wrong? From first viewing I thought of her as an innocent who was collateral damage.
She pretended to be drunk to hook up with (a very drunk) Jim. The way she just happened to be there with her car to scoop him up felt premeditated and predatory. She could have said “I’m not drinking, I have to drive” but she pretended to get drunk with them and had this plan the whole time.
I don't think people ever thought she did anything wrong. But people were definitely rooting for Jim and Pam, and so it didn't get much thought at the time. It's much easier to look back on the show and pick it apart, but during the original run, the anti-Jim sentiment that's in a lot of these comments wasn't present.
No I don't think anyone really thought that.
This video and people in this comment section are so dramatic.
I think we all saw the two were doomed and celebrated THEIR end, not necessarily "getting rid of Karen."
@@DABA2024you are definitely remembering this scene incorrectly
@DABA2024 andy, jim, Karen all worked late. They were drinking (Karen obviously pretending so she could drive home) she leaves the building sees drunk jim fall over and offers him a ride. You are messed up in the head if you actually believe what you've been typing in these comments
Those same office workers also never bothered telling Erin about Angela and Andy. I know the show was basically a cartoon by that point but it's still a parallel in the writing. (Edit: and now I'm remembering they never told Andy about Angela and Dwight!)
I’m not gonna lie when I was a teenager and watched the show I was really rooting for Erin and Andy and was so sad it got abandoned 😂 I thought it was way more fun than Jim and Pam 💀
Erin was too stupid of a character to ever sympathize with
@@agonefire I mostly agree although I don't think that makes her a bad character, just the show wasn't interested in telling many stories based in realism by that point. I did sympathize with her when she bonded with Michael as a father figure though and when Andy left her on the boat
@@agonefire r/whoosh.....that's the whole point. And she played that outrageous type of character perfectly. And for that character there's only the thinnest of grey areas and tightrope that you literally have to stay on at all times and a risk to play because you have no room for any type of slack and can easily move one inch to the left and/or to the right and then you fail in your portrayal. Because you have to be literally over the top and have an exaggerated personality.....and yet still believable as if that's literally a real person in real life. It's like how there's no wiggle room whern you play mentally challenged characters and roles like that and it's either great or it's really bad....there's no middle. Think Leo in Gilbert grape and Hoffman in Rainman and ect ect. Or you get John Travolta in that one movie...or like I am Sam and stuff like that. That's how her role is as her character and portrayal of it in the office tbh. And she literally pulls it off every episode and to the point she's the most adorable on the whole show.....And her portrayal as that character in the office is apparently so good......that she literally got to star in her own show and she's basically literally the same character on there that she is on the office.
@@agonefire @agonefire r/whoosh.....that's the whole point. And she played that outrageous type of character perfectly. And for that character there's only the thinnest of grey areas and tightrope that you literally have to stay on at all times and a risk to play because you have no room for any type of slack and can easily move one inch to the left and/or to the right and then you fail in your portrayal. Because you have to be literally over the top and have an exaggerated personality.....and yet still believable as if that's literally a real person in real life. It's like how there's no wiggle room whern you play mentally challenged characters and roles like that and it's either great or it's really bad....there's no middle. Think Leo in Gilbert grape and Hoffman in Rainman and ect ect. Or you get John Travolta in that one movie...or like I am Sam and stuff like that. That's how her role is as her character and portrayal of it in the office tbh. And she literally pulls it off every episode and to the point she's the most adorable on the whole show.....And her portrayal as that character in the office is apparently so good......that she literally got to star in her own show and she's basically literally the same character on there that she is on the office.
My mom and I both got into The Office at the same time and as we were watching through it, she would often say things like "Don't stop looking until you've found someone who loves you like Jim loves Pam", and at the time I found it cute, but after some reflection and watching this video, she kind of fell into the exact same trap you're describing watching the show, rooting for these emotionally immature people who cheat and lie to their partners until they stop pretending and just get together. I still love this show, and the first few seasons are some of my favorites in television, but I they should not be seen as parables.
I dont think the show is saying they're parables, Karen calls Pam kind of a bitch (rightfully so) and she also criticizes Jim after they break up
Maturity is realizing Jim kind of sucks. From the Karen situation to how he wasn’t showing up for Pam late in the series either
That's the thing about these types of people in real life. They never improve in their communication and relationship skills even for the one they are truly in love with.
And pam sucks too. Sabotaging her husband's career and having an affair with Jim.
Oh no. Totally normal situations that are extremely valid. Yeah he sucks for that.
@@PanicGiraffeshe cheated emotionally on Roy with Jim then cheated on Jim with camera guy
@@myrojynpam never cheated with the camera guy tf
Karen ended up happy, married and pregnant. I am a big believer in we have to go through everything we do to end up where we are. If anything had changed Karen's path, she might not have ended up in that bar the night she met her husband. Maybe I feel this way because I personally went through hell for many years, but it landed me exactly where I was supposed to be to meet my husband.
"...Pam is kinda diabolical..." sir you just expressed perfectly something I have not been able to articulate myself since I first watched this show, here's my like to you!
I hate Pam more everytime I rewatch. Many people hate her because of Roy, but that's understandable. Her whole attitude is just so unlikeable, trying to be liked by everyone.
Did Pam ever pretend to be drunk, while getting Jim hammered, to hook up with him?
@@danielapardo9776I mean that's part of growth.
Part of the Karen Jim arc was Pam realizing she didn't need to be liked by everyone.
Wtf?!
@@lucaleone4331 but even after the triangle she continued to be like that. Everyone has flaws, I find that flaw extremely unlikeable.
@@danielapardo9776 she's a pick me
I appreciate the context of someone who watched this back in the day and knew about the prevailing attitudes back when it aired. It was wild coming into this show during quarantine
(I am a little behind on a lot, clearly)
This triangle was real because it showed that attraction has nothing to do with reason and logic and you can do everything right and lose and also everything wrong and win. Love is complicated.
Karen's talking head making fun of Jim for looking at the camera is one of my favorites 😂
Every time I see Rashida Jones, I'm like "OH it's Ann Perkins!" 😂
Same
While it was kind of advertised as “wow ok she’s weird” that Karen promised she would stick it out till Jim gets back with her, And then she leaves the next day, it’s actually a sign of her maturity. She realized that it’s not smart to wait for a guy like that who is stuck on someone else.
If anything the real hero is Karen, a great example of not messing around with someone who’s heart isn’t totally in it, who doesn’t know what they want, and being able to move on.
She didn't promise she'd stick it out until Jim gets back with her. She said she'd stick it out because she's a professional and was willing to do her job DESPITE Jim. She wasn't waiting for Jim for anything.
I knew Karen got given a raw deal but I never realised how diabolical Jim and Pam's actions were towards her.
But I don't think Pam's fire walk speech and friendship had genuinely ill intentions. I think she honestly saw a potential friend in Karen and was also really upset to lose Jim as a friend, but expecting him to stay friends with you just because you called off your wedding is pretty nasty work.
Also, I always thought it was weird that they made Rashida Jones Italian. What you said about an interracial relationship has straight up blown my mind. Makes a lot of sense
how would that be different if she wasn't white? would his actions be considered racist, but if you're an asshole to a white woman it's not that bad? I guess some people would say Jim's racist, because they don't understand treating someone like poo is different than treating someone like poo because of their skin color. You can be shitty to a biracial person without racism.
They had a gay character and a white man dating an Indian. You really think they were worried about a someone who's half black dating Jim?
Great video! I think it's hilarious that almost everyone loved Jim and Pam a decade ago, and now it feels like almost everyone hates Jim and Pam now. It's like we all collectively grew up.
I think what irks people is that both Jim and Pam have main character syndrome, which they literally are main characters, but since the Office is meant to feel realistic they sorta come off as douchebags. They think their love is special, more special, and they sorta look down on their coworkers even though Jim and Pam are literally on the same level as them.
Jim and Pam actually are the worst… after rewatching it they are just immature cringey bullies and hard to watch -_-
Are any love triangles not annoying?
i suppose that's subjective but i can't think of another one where one person clearly did absolutely nothing wrong and still received the brunt of the abuse and consequences. thats what makes it so bad for me lol
The only ‘love triangle’, which isnt even really a love triangle, I like is Past Lives. It actually explores the realistic turnout of events when you are interested in someone, and they in you, and it doesn’t work out becuz of timing or geography, which is quite common irl, and in the end you just don’t get together. There is no fairytale destiny, its just making it work. And in Past Lives Hae-Sung is still chasing this unrequited possible love of his, while Nora and Arthur are already happily married, though clearly Nora is also through the process letting go of this past self she left behind in Korea. Idk ppl considered it a love triangle movie so if thats the case i think its the least annoying version of it
Sopranos love triangles werent
Love triangles is a very popular recipe for drama, especially the "actually just an angle" B and C both love A, and A hesitates between the two. They are often written in because the writers needed an obstacle and that one would do, as opposed to chosen because the writers had an interesting twist on the formula.
In the case of the Office, and many long running American TV series, they had a couple that was introduced pretty early on as possibly end-game, but they couldn't have them be together too soon, so they needed scenaristic obstacles to prevent them to get together. Using a love triangle as one of these obstacles is quite common and it's rarely satisfying because one of the branches is kind of doomed from the beginning. Writers have to navigate a tight line between making sure both lines are believable (even though one of them has been established earlier and the audience already root for them) and avoid dissatisfaction when you resolve the triangle (if too many people preferred the pair who is broken).
Love triangles that were intended from the start to be part of a narrative, from authors who have a better grasp on the timing of everything have a better shot at being good. For instance, novel writers can, to a certain extent, choose the length of their novel ; Korean drama writers don't get to choose, but they typically know from the start how long the entire show will last, contrary to American sitcom writers or mangakas who might have to extend a story for years if it is successful, or it might stop brutally if it isn't, so filler intrigues are kind of necessary, and it's not easy to make filler really compelling.
Time management isn't the only issue, a popular trope is likely to be popular among bad writers as well, sometimes people screw up just because they're not very good. But in the case of the Office, I really think it failed because their love triangle was a filler and not something they really wanted to bring into the story for a good reason.
1) Jim and Pam have done a ton to make real-life dating worse. People pick up their cues on how dating works from TV - particularly if they don't have a ton of real-world experience - and the message on every TV show is, the mopey guy just needs to PERSIST and the woman will eventually fall for him. Guys see themselves as Jim to whatever Pam they fancy. They really ought to consider that they are actually Toby: of no interest to Pam, and just accept it and move on.
2) Team Karen to this day. Karen was a much better match for Jim than Pam was - Pam's deal was that she was passive and harmless and unwilling to tell Jim to comb his hair like a goddamn adult - but Karen was looking so good by comparison, they had to throw in material to make her less sympathetic, just to keep Pam in the running.
3) Karen tried to make the relationship work despite the red flags. I won't fault her for that; it's always hard to tell whether a relationship is salvageable.
4) Jim really is bereft of positive qualities. He's pleasant, yes; but he almost never does anything to help anyone else. How much better this show would have been if Jim used his reluctance to actually do any work, to help people. FOR EXAMPLE: near the end of the series, Angela had all of her cats taken away; imagine how much better the episode would have been if Jim used his powers to get Angela's home declared a shelter for homeless cats so she could get her cats back. Then in the confessional, Jim could say: "On the one hand, I didn't get any actual work done today. On the other hand, I became an expert in how to work the system to declare people's homes animal sanctuaries. All in all, a pretty good day. ... ... I think I'm going to make Dwight's home a moose sanctuary."
Maturing is realizing Dwight was right about Jim
@@Linklex7 Dwight is about the only one of them I would want to work with. Stanley and Oscar would be all right too.
This is a genius idea
Your points are just bad lol
Yes yes yes! For point 1, most of the guys saying "I'm a Jim looking for his Pam" are actually a Toby in real life.
Maturing is realising that Jim and Pam sometimes were bad people.
Jim always put Pam ahead of his current girlfriends and continuosly flirted with an engaged woman.
Pam, as said engaged woman, continuosly flirted with Jim, but never fully comitted nor broke it off with neither Jim nor Roy.
Not to mention their respective confessions to each other, while the other was in a relationship. Especially Pam, who did it infront of Karen.
You just don't do that. Nothing good comes from this. You either hurt every single person involved or your new partner now has left their commited relationship for a spur of the moment confession. The relationship will last exactly until the next ill timed confession from someone else.
Never stop making these videos❤️ Pam is kinda cringe with her relationship with Jim. She friend zoned him and only seemed to get feelings for Jim as soon as she rejected him. It's like when someone has a dream of someone and all of a sudden they are in love with that person when before absolutely no interest.
Pam was toxic from the beginning. Sure, Roy was a brute, but she lead Jim through out the first couple seasons. Roy has trouble managing his emotions but he had every right to be furious over that whole cutesy office thing they had going on. If Pam wasn't all in with Roy, she should have just broken up with him. Imagine telling your kids how you met "oh we had this office fling thing going on while mom was engaged to another man." It's pretty gross.
Learning about Cheers really helped me appreciate messed up love triangles like this, even if nobody has topped Fraiser being the third wheel and getting to vent all of the audience's frustrations and then telling the other parties to screw off. And then he just stuck around and seethed anyways, and continuted to be a hot mess himself into a spinoff.
I appreciate Karen just moved on and doesn’t let old grudges control her. Nice change to the usual end result up to that point.
LMAO I can't believe I'm getting called out for being Team Karen as WELL as Team Yellow q.q
Jim and Pam are *clears throat* the WORRSTT!!
Love this short form videos. I always appreciate the long form but as I get older I can’t sit through them anymore.
Still love this channel! Thank you for the years of content.
Team Karen was a faux pass (back in the good ol days )
Lolololo
*faux pas
Love Karen! She is pretty much the only one I’d want to be friends with in real life 😊💕
Every time I rewatch the Office, I get the idk from Jim more and more. That is not to say he’s an overall bad dude, but I think it should be acknowledged that he is very flawed and does not handle emotional situations maturely. I find what I see overall is praise of Jim for being a decent guy, his pranks, and his side of the love story, and a ton of Pam hate. They’re both flawed normal people, but every rewatch softens me to Pam even more. This video does a great job talking about Jim’s immaturity.
This is the first video of yours that shows up in my subscription box in like at least 9 months. Which sucks and idk why its the case because clearly you've been uploading. :( Anyway, looking *really* forward to this one 😊
Analyzing the show in this way really shows how far good writing goes to make you root for a character even when they are in the wrong
This is a super well-made video the editing, the green screen work, the voiceover and audio quality script everything. Top-notch!
Yes I have a nebula subscription just to watch jet lag but I’m thankful that I have found such an array of amazing talented artists to support. The only thing is is I find Nebula a little harder to use then I find RUclips. I wish it was easier to find everyone I wanna watch on Nebula because that’s where I want to support you. But I also know that it’s OK if I just watch on RUclips.
I love your channel. New subscriber! Your boy meets world deep dives brought me here. I totally forgot about Karen or that this actress was in this show.
The ultimate lesson is.. it all made for EXCELLENT television
I haven’t watched this show all the way through since I was a teenager. I used to think Jim and Pam were relationship goals, but good god they’re insufferable.
I can't stand Jim tbh. his smug face is insufferable
Ehh…Karen knew what she was getting into. She figured out Jim still had strong feelings for Pam and tried to make it work with him anyways. That’s always a risky move and it didn’t work out. She wasn’t “wronged”. Yeah it’s hard to walk away from someone you care about, but she clearly saw the signs that he wasn’t over Pam and she could’ve been the one to leave.
Now you could say the character didn’t deserve fan hate, but let’s be real. We, as the (majority) audience, have been watching Jim and Pam’s relationship build and have been wanting them to get together for how long by this point? Any obstacle was gonna get some hate no matter the source and a romantic rival was a GUARANTEED hate magnet.
“She’s got a weird hairdo in this episode, don’t worry about it” 😂😂😂
Seeing Jim with a front lobe fully developed, he sucked and would gaslight you into believing he doesn't. He did Pam dirty for getting into her relationship, then did Karen dirty and then Pam again when he wanted to move because of his crazy new job and throw away any stability and support they had around them. He was an ok friend, bad boyfriend and horrible husband. My crush wore off on my most recent rewatch
You think Jim, Pam and Karen's love triangle was annoying?? Trying watching THE LEGEND OF KORRA relationship of Mako, Korra (titular character) and Asami and you too will scream "Dump Emo Fu*k boy Mako, Korra....DUMP HIS ASS NOW!". Not possible! You'll rip your hair out by the end of Book 1 like I did. 😂🤣
And it got worse in the second season. I laughed when Mako's grandmother scolded him for the triangle nonsense.
I mean, Korra wasn't exactly great either. The only one blameless among them is asami
Great take. Like many, I found the whole Jim-Pam arc exceptional, and never looked at K as victim as deeply as described here, and still tend to excuse much or most of it as in the "All's fair in..." cliche. In real life, even the most straightforward, emotionally mature people can and do get squirrelish on this level, so I'm more forgiving of J & P's lack of honesty, as they were lying/avoiding/manipulating themselves as much as K. People are messy, and The Office captured a particular brand of awkwardness brilliantly in this storyline.
"Woman in love is the dumbest" applies to Karen. She is much more than Jim deserves
i think ppl hate them (those who do hate jim and pam) bcz in a cartoony show where everyone is a jerk theyre suppose to be the "good" characters but really theyre just potrayed to be humans w flaws
One of the reasons I love The Office is how it portrays that everyone has their flaws. Jim and Pam both were emotionally immature and messed up on numerous occasions, but that's how life is. Nobody is perfect and no relationship is perfect. Every couple faces challenges. Karen definitely didn't deserve it, but I never felt that The Office demonized her either. They didn't just throw her aside like many other shows do with the third person in the triangle. They gave her a nice ending by showing her promotion and eventual marriage and child. Jim wasn't the right fit for her anyways. It doesn't mean he or Pam are horrible people like some fans believe, it just means the show did a good job writing realistic characters, at least as realistic as TV can get
Typical for a “nice guy” to be rooted for and the women to be villainized even when the “nice guy” is being horrible.
You’re so right. Sometimes it’s hard to consider the perspective of the side characters when they’re in direct competition with the protagonists. They become sort of accidental antagonists. She definitely was the good one here though
4:22 in one of the deleted scenes, Karen pulls a prank on Jim's telephone for being a kiss ass to Josh after he becomes Assistant to Regional Manager and he realizes that he has become the Dwight of the Stanford branch. It's a brilliant and relevant scene.
14:28 Slight correction, Pam was honest and upfront about her feelings and desires after she displayed her art at the show and Oscar with his boyfriend commented on them. They said real art requires courage and they are not Pam's strong traits. The following episode is when Pam starts to be assertive.
9:58 well, I’d, normally, agree…but in THIS sort of instance…I think the “mature, adult” thing to do to, WOULD be to NOT waste any MORE time and future embarrassment and, YES, break TF UP….
I’m NOT about to be with a guy/person who 1) is ALREADY, showing SERVERAL red flags/incompatibilities, 2) ONE of those “red flags”, I have to see EVERYDAY, where I make a living and 3) said “red flag” is probably plotting against me and getting off on playing in my face, ALONG with my significant other.
Yeah, it’s time to call it quits, INSTANTLY 🗑️ 🚮
The Team Yellow disrespect out of left field, how dare!
Jim is a bad guy. Think about it. He caused tension between Pam and Roy, and used Karen as a means to make Pam jealous.
Another thing that bothered me about Jim was how he treated Dwight. While some pranks were quite harmless, other pranks definitely went too far and made me feel bad for Dwight. Jim says that he doesn’t like Dwight because he’s annoying, but throughout the series, Jim is definitely annoying him more than Dwight is annoying Jim. Dwight is also way more job focused than Jim is. Dwight just wants to work but of course Jim has to be there to upset him. Also, when Dwight is showing immaturity towards Jim (or just in general) Jim gets mad and plays the innocent victim as if hasn’t spent literal years taunting Dwight.
I don’t think it was a “random comment” that Phyllis made in the car with Karen. She was just as diabolical. She knew exactly what she was doing when she said that. Especially when you consider how her character develops later.
One point: At the interview, Jim hadn't seen Pam's note yet. I don't know if he'd decided yet.
I'm glad someone is talking about it.
Unpopular opinion: the older I get, the more I dislike The Office.
There. I said it.
6:15 Team Instinct out here catching strays
Pam wasn't the one stalling the wedding. It was alll Roy. Lol
I'm only 50 seconds in, and I've already given your video a like. The Office was running when I was in high school and uni, and you won't believe how many people celebrated Jim and Pam and acted like Karen was trash. I have been waiting for this video for about a decade now.
Karen was simply a casualty of war
Personally if someone I’m dating tells me they have feelings for someone else, I don’t find it childish to break it off. You can’t have a relationship with someone who’s foot is halfway out the door.
To me, love isn’t wanting and choosing not to. Love is just not being interested at all. There is no temptation for someone else.
Think about anything you are 100% certain about. Something that any of the other options will not sway you. Big, small. Type of pizza, icecream flavor, favorite weather, sports team, sport, etc. Think about how you react to the other options. There is no hate nor having to will yourself back to your favorite option. You just like one more than the others. Sure you look at the others. But not in the same way as when you didn’t have a favorite yet. You see what I’m saying?
If you are certain about someone even in the early stages then you just won’t be interested in someone else.
So that is why if someone doesn’t fully want me, then I’m not gona play the game of “maybe she will come around someday”. But that’s me. I’d rather search for a yes than convince a no.
When a relationship is built on toxicity, blurred boundaries, and dishonesty, the ultimate threat in life but especially in fiction is a healthy level headed person.
All I know is: If you manage to creep behind me in Call of Duty like Karen did Jim? I'm never leaving you.
That's the moment where I said: "Oh wow, the bully girl from Freaks and Geeks is awesome".
Every character in the office is super toxic in their own way, and the ones that are not, leave, just like karen
My read of Jim telling Michael about his feelings for Pam is that he was doing it semi-intentionally (he probably decided on an unconscious level). He knew Michael wouldn't be able to keep it a secret so it was a way for him to let Pam know without taking the blame or having a direct conversation. Eventually, he did make his move... but we saw how much Michaels leak affected Pam.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. Thank you for this, validating, perspective.
Karen got Jim drunk while pouring her shots in the garbage. She then took him home to sleep with him. She manipulated him
6:19 ok my turn to be personally attacked 😂
Go Team Instinct!
I took it as a cautionary tale. You can like a great guy but if he isn't in to you let him go. Also I feel like he gave a lot of other hints like telling you not to go to PA.
The literally had a gay character. They didn't make Karen Italian to avoid politics
Man I gotta say, this one of my new favorite channels bro. I look forward to watching every time you upload. I’ll sub on Nebula on my next paycheck.
I’ve been in Karen’s position and man when you really fall for the other person it can really break you
IVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS!!!! THANK YOU!!!! Everyone is like nooooo Jim and Pam are endgame Karen was just a placeholder and I’m like SHE IS A PERSON WITH FEELINGS THO! Jim knew that she really liked him and continued to string her along to distract himself/ make Pam jealous. My dad even tried to say “I think Karen was pretty cool about it in the end though and understood everything” like NO in the episode where they literally go undercover and visit her at her new office she talks about how Jim broke her heart and she “cried for weeks over that guy” !!!!
To be fair, Jim got with Karen without knowing hed ever see Pam again. Karen was better so Jim just an idiot.
I SWEAR, I ALWAYS thought this storyline was strange and ended rather DEMONICALLY.
Part of me ALWAYS thought that they “listened” to their fans/audience who, possibly, LOATHED the thought of “cute, witty, whyte”-Jim so-called “discarding” “cute, relatable, whyte, girl-next-door”-Pam for….ummm, “ETHNIC”-Karen….so THAT’S why her ending was so random, abrupt, rude and distasteful. Jmho….
Jim, Karen, Pam
I know it’s fashionable these days to sh*t on The Office for a bunch of different reasons, and particularly Jim. But if I may:
- Karen is a rebound. By definition, rebounds end messily. Sure, Karen didn’t have the full facts before dating Jim, but nobody has “the full facts” before dating someone. Plus, she got them halfway through the season, and then she’s willfully deluding herself about what’s going on
- Jim makes a lot of mistakes with Karen, but his heart is broken, and I think the guy deserves some sympathy. He’s hurt, confused, and embarrassed. It’s extremely difficult to “act rationally” or “behave like an adult in an adult relationship” when you just went through what he went through. And when a beautiful woman shows you interest when you’re in that state, it is completely human and normal to think, “You know what, maybe I DO just need to move on, and hey, this woman’s cool, let’s see where this goes! Maybe I’ll find happiness again!” He had absolutely no clue that right after starting dating her, he’d be thrust back in with Pam. He was trying to close that chapter of his life, but fate (and the show runners) had other plans. Once he returns, what is he supposed to do, sit both of them down and have a disclosure session with them so they’re all on the same page? He’s trying to move on but can’t. He didn’t cheat on Karen; and it’s only “stringing her along” if he knows it’s never gonna work out in the end, which he clearly doesn’t until the very end of the season - which is exactly when he breaks up with Karen. The entire rest of the time, he’s really making a genuine (even if not effective) effort to make things work with Karen. That first time when he confesses to Karen he had feelings for Pam, he’s not trying to deceive Karen about what happened between them; he’s trying to deceive himself. He’s clearly still in pain, and one of the ways people (especially men) try to move on from that kind of emotional pain is by downplaying it and pretending like it wasn’t as bad as it actually was.
- As for Pam, she’s also hurt and confused. She realizes after rejecting Jim that she made a mistake, but can’t tell him because he’s gone. And then, as soon as he comes back, she finds out he’s dating someone else. She is not mean to Karen, and tries really hard not to interfere in their relationship. At beach day, could she have found a better time to tell Jim how she felt instead of in front of everyone, including Karen? Sure. But she was working off a surge of confidence, it wasn’t premeditated, or malicious or manipulative.
The thing about S3 is that all three of these people are in pain. Karen is racked with doubt; Jim is reeling from a broken heart; Pam is struggling with regret. People don’t act perfectly rationally or “like adults” in these situations. Have sympathy for Karen, she 100% deserves happiness (and finds it!), but don’t act like Jim and Pam did that to her on purpose.
That dude got to make out with both of them and got PAID for it
i adore karen, she’s such a good person and deserved better.
the calling out of team yellow in pokemon go felt personal
"for months is not nearly enough for a broken heart to heal"... well, not for a relationship, but at that moment, pam was a crush for Jim, and four months should be more than enough to heal from a crush, acctually, one month should do
I felt like her character in parks and rec wasnt trruly cherished by Chris either
The last few minutes of this video are wild lol. I was with you up to "that's not some shit you say to someone in front of their girlfriend" - if anything, I think she's doing the adult thing by admitting that in front of everyone who stands to be impacted by it. I think it would've looked a lot more manipulative and gross if she had admitted this to Jim when they were alone together. She obviously likes Jim and wants him to be absolutely clear on that, which I think is fair - Pam (in make believe world anyway) is an adult and will have to live the rest of her life with the knowledge that she never really made an effort to be with someone she loved if she doesn't say something now, or at least very soon. Admitting it when they're alone is like asking him to cheat - she might as well take her shirt off after she says it as an exclamation point.
Then immediately after, the suggestion that Jim has already made up his mind to dump Karen at that point, it's just not at all what I see happening. He kinda seems like he's trying to convince himself that life with Karen would be as good as life with Pam, because they do have chemistry and a good time together. I don't think Jim really has any intention of doing anything untoward until he sees the yogurt lid gold medal, which is the last little shove he needs to follow his heart (ugh I apologize for saying "follow his heart" without a shred of irony) - Jim isn't manipulating Karen here any more than he's manipulating himself
Then finally the last bit about Pam wanting absolution from Karen for doing a shitty thing... Again, this kinda seems like the adult thing to do here. What's done is done. She's not gonna give Jim back. Karen wouldn't want him. Is she supposed to apologize for shooting her shot? Idk man. While Karen definitely gets screwed over, thinking of Jim + Pam as "diabolical" or whatever for making decisions that don't prioritize Karen's feelings seems like a weird take. They aren't taking food out of her mouth or something. Being mindful of the feelings of others to the degree suggested in videos like this seems like a great way to assure you'll be remembered by the world as an extremely polite, selfless person who never actually wound up happy themselves. Sometimes you have to look out for your own best interest, even if it makes someone else sad.
Enjoyed watching anyway though, thanks for making me think about shit
I can't believe she changed her name, moved to a small town in Indiana and it happened again when her "friend" Leslie got married
I took a lot of abuse being on “Team Karen” back in the day. I’m sure ratings-wise, the whole audience disagrees with what I’m about to say but, for me, Jim and Pam getting together was when the show began its decline. Everyone seems to be commenting about how their flawed relationship made the show more compelling and I just never felt that way. To me, Pam was very unremarkable. As you mentioned, Jim was kind, charming, funny, etc. but clearly not mature enough for a serious relationship. Why would I ever want to watch a show that is highly invested in that relationship. Personally I would have wrote Pam off the show, kept Jim as a single man, and found a much more suitable new character for Karen’s partner. Yeah, yeah, I clearly don’t know what America really wants, because the audience really ate it up. But you’ll never convince me that the Jim/Pam angle wasn’t incredibly boring television. And I suspect that you’ll never convince yourself either.
This is similar to how Emily desereved better in FRIENDS. Any logical woman would have an issue with their husband hanging out with the woman whose name he said wrong at the altar.
We've all been Karen at one time or another.
If you're lucky, you've also been Pam.
The only Karen I’ve ever loved, subscribed
When Charles Miner shows up he exposed how immature and lazy Jim was.
Looking at The Office now, I think that you're right. In the end, though, Karen did well for herself & had a beautiful family.
i absolutely agree that karen did nothing wrong and deserved better. i also think calling some of the discussion of pam in this video is inherently flawed due to either an unwillingness to address or inability to process her behavior in this season as stemming from a long term abusive relationship. pam and jim both make mistakes in s3 - i'm not saying she's perfect - but she's not being a "master manipulator", she's recovering from being in abusive relationship and then, later, falling back into that abusive relationship because she thinks it's her only option. that's what makes the beach scene so powerful - it's her finally seeing her worth. maybe it's not the best time or place, and it's certainly not fair to karen, but i will never be able to fault her for that.
There's one thing I think you definitely got wrong at the end. Karen was pregnant when Michael and Pam went to see her, very far along too. You say that she's very emotionally intelligent, but the truth is she met her new guy on the rebound, as evidenced by Michael calculating 10 months from the last time Jim and Karen had sex. Keep in mind that Karen also moved with Jim to Scranton after only being together for a few months and was ready to quit her job and move to New York with him if he had gotten the corporate job. Don't get me wrong, I do think overall she's better than Pam, but there's definitely something there with how quickly she hitches her wagon.
“Jim and Pam are the worst.” 😂
Jim and Pam are two peas in a pod. Love them, but they’re no where near perfect.
I've never rooted so hard for a tv couple in my life!
Roy gives Chris Pratt vibes.
No no no. She had red flags. Jim first told her she should move to ny. And not come to Scranton. Then Phylis told her Jim was in love with Pam. Then he told her at the party he had feelings for Pam. That was another out of that. Soooo yea she tried to force it.
I think Karen took Ls, but different than ones you think she did and I will list them here:
9:26 I have to say, that if I ended up working at an office where my bf and the girl he had a "crush on" was also working there, and I had to hear from someone else that they had a thing for each other without him having a difficult conversation and telling me these things himself, I would be mad as hell. That face she makes where she smiles big and fake is something I think many women need to stop doing and that is being too nice to the men who put us in awkward situations to begin with.
Her first L is that she was being played for a fool, and instead of being rightfully angry about it and letting her bf know he crossed a line, she tried to be _cool,_ be the easy-going gf that lets the shit slide. Historically, when has that ever worked out well for women?
9:58 She asks him outright if he still has feelings for Pam and he says yes, that is a red flag 🚩clear as day. I understand that in adult relationships, you try to work through problems instead of just breaking up, I agree with that, but not when the problem involves another person and your partner is being emotionally or physically unfaithful. Jim didn't lie to her but she continued to be with him when she knew that deep down he still wanted someone else. That is the biggest L. She diminished her own self-worth in that moment because it was not her place to try and dissolve the tension or their unresolved feelings for each other. The best thing she could have done for herself was put herself out of harm's way.
15:31 Karen's biggest W is that she quit working there, transfers to somewhere else and leaves.
Pam is not a nice person, she thinks she nice but she is deluded, that confession to Jim when Karen is sitting right there is just diabolical and Jim not being a mature person and ending his relationship with Karen to be with Pam is gross. If she hadn't quit and left, what would he have done? Strung her along and treated her worse and worse until she finally broke up with him? How is that not worse sitting someone down and telling them you don't have feelings for them or you're not invested in the relationship anymore? That kind of thing is hard and it sucks in the moment but in the long run it does more good than bad while stringing them along and treating them like shit overtime actually harms a person.
In Conclusion: Pam and Jim are both horrible and they deserve each other.
Yess it all makes sense now watching as an adult. We were so gaslighted by the creators that Jim and Pam are the soulmates and other characters are as sabotagers. I dont really care about Roy but boyyyy were we wrong about Karen. I feel so bad for her. She was the only normal person in this whole show. Jim and Pam were both red flags from the beginning. They were selfish totally inconsiderate about Karen’s feeling.
She also plays Anne from Parks and Recreation, who was originally in a relationship with Chris Pratt’s character before he and Aubrey Plaza’s character got together. Why do they keep doing this to this poor actress?