@@thegreygoblin5165 I just had the thought that were possibly gonna have Virtua Fighter, Metroid Dread, and a new Melty Blood ALL in the same year. It feels like 2007 again in a weird way.
Sega of America: Please let us use rollback. Nintendo of America: You're asking for rollback? We JUST got netcode that doesn't try to run Windows 98 first. Capcom USA: They just keep using delay-based, but slap a different hat on it and present it as new like some Weekend at Bernie's shtick. Namco Bandai USA: You guys are actually acknowledged by the JP branches????
@@miguelnewmexico8641 delay based had been dead since rollback invalidated it from the PS360 gen, yet devs decided to continue to bring out its carcass for years
More then anything I died inside hearing about them destroying game masters and documents. Like it’s something we can assume some companies do or have done, but hearing it confirmed is horrifying from a standpoint of game preservation.
Sega's weirdly paranoid about a lot of things. They barely let western writers even touch the Sonic franchise ever since they let Penders abscond with a literal village of characters.
Meh. I’m waiting for someone to say “Fine. I’ll do it myself” basically making a fool of SEGA of Japan and showing that rollback was the correct decision.
@@MisteRRYouTuby the fact that Pat's crazy talk about a bot/TAS winning evo only hasn't happened YET is my only hope other than the meteor/bahamut irl.
So the thing is Harada's whole "a bunch of things will look kinda bad because you'll notice rollbacks more" thing isn't technically even that wrong. NRS and Capcom got around this just fine because it's an issue with the way 3D models are animated, but whatever. Unlike 99% of what comes out of Harada's mouth about netcode, this actually isn't a fucking lie. What Harada does not seem to understand is that animation jitter in rollback is only as common is button presses that trigger new animation (common, but not *that* common), and also that people prefer a vastly better gameplay experience to perfect animation.
Oh god the "People prefer a vastly better gameplay experience to perfect animation" sentiment is something I would've launched with extreme prejudice at the face of whoever at Nintendo turned down rollback for Smash Ult because apparently the visuals would have suffered in an online environment.
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll This is Japan's problem, a lot of Japanese devs have this whole thing about "muh artistic vision" whereas here in the west we tend to be a lot more pragmatic about that. Same thing with modding, where in the west it tends to be more like "hey someone modded our game! Sick!" and the Japanese response would probably be more along the lines of "wait. That's illegal." I mean, here in the west, outside of fighting games, John Carmack settled this argument fucking *decades* ago, because in 1996 playing at 300ms ping, waiting for the server to tell you your character had started moving and assuming it would happen was the difference between literally unplayable and halfway decent, even if sometimes you got teleported by packet loss or you had to lead your shots differently.
@@THB192 Well...some American devs have a "muh artistic vision" problem as they sacrifice good controls for smooth animation. But I know what you mean, Japan is VERY stuck in their ways. But yeah we haven't really gotten a 3D fighter with rollback yet, have we? I'm curious what this jitter would actually look like and if clever programming could smooth it out. I'm trying to think of anything that might be able to show me rollback on a 3D fighter. I know Mednafen is delay based apparently despite being quite good, so NullDCBear or Dolphin?
@@GELTONZ Nope, all delay. If you're wondering what the jitter would look like... NRS games and also Melee will give you some idea. They're smoothly animated like a 3D fighter, which is one of the points that Harada mentioned. One thing that is a complication is rolling back changes in camera angle, which could look pretty bad (if you've ever played am FPS on a bad link you might have experienced this). There are genuinely a lot of challenges in doing rollback in any game, and 3D fighters do have unique issues 2D ones don't experience to the same degree. But *also*, Harada doesn't just say "it's hard" or "we're working on it, give us time", he lies, he distracts, he confuses the issue, he does everything he can to he unclear and condescending in his responses to rollback requests, rather than *directly addressing* the fact that Tekken has shitty netcode and wil continue to have shitty netcode and that he and his team *should* have fixing that, however long it takes and no matter the effort, as priority one, or if that's infeasible than making damn sure that it's not like this in Tekken 8.
No they released a statement that it did well beyond expectations. The rollback debate is something they can always address in an actual new game, but what matters is shit worked out where I needed to.
That's a pretty creative way of saying "I wish all those old bastards would drop dead." It's ok, I've been there. Still, things like these is what makes the occasional miracle (like Persona 4 on Steam) all the more impactful.
Same thing with the Guilty Gear +R Rollback mod. When a company actually supports a a group of modders implementing Rollback into a game and makes it OFFICIAL, instead of cancelling the project all-together. Now, both the older members of the community and the newcomers who jump into Strive can have both coexist as a community at the same time without the other one being left behind. Though in all honesty, I would have prefered Rev 2 getting rollback since I didn't enjoy +R all that much in comparison to Strive. (+R may be more mechanically in depth, but presentation does play an important part in terms of my enjoyment somewhat, which is why I end up liking Strive more. Strive's pacing also fits better for me personally.) My prefrences aside, this was a great decision by the devs that helped out the community from dying out in the long run. Let's hope Rev 2 gets the same treatement in the future.
Korean MMO's suffer a TON from this as well. It's not an issue endemic of "Asians" though, China is a HUGE country that also has huge pockets of poor broadband infrastructure just like us. Only these guys living on little islands and penninsulas seem to think NetCode isn't important
"we've solved the energy crisis. World hunger shouldn't be a problem anymore. We could easily expand into space if the planet became to crowded. So why? Why did it end up like this?"
Someone needs to make a Sopranos-style manga about ex-Yakuza trying to implement themselves back into society, but it ends up them being really bizarre video game businessmen
you know, when I was listening to this on audio yesterday, I had a picture of Woolie in my head. And when Pat said "NAAAAAAH," the Woolie in my head had the exact same look in his eyes as the real Woolie did.
The first couple weeks of Ultimate Showdown seem to have massively surpass expectations already, according the official VF Twitter, and updates are still being actively worked on and released. VF6 is still a possibility, but we still need to be vocal about rollback if we want to see it implemented. Don't stop nagging.
Y'know that part where a bunch of people who work at their company were telling them to do something and they said fuck off? Why do you think they give a shit about anyone who doesn't literally live on their island?
@@KaosMachina Because we're the ones who buy the product. VF6 is likely years away; there's enough time for things to change, especially if Sega sees other Japanese fighting game devs taking the time to implement rollback. If we keep screaming at them and they ignore us, then release a sub-par product that we don't buy, we get to say "we told you so" and move on to games that have what we asked for.
So what if in like 5-10 years, all the big japanese game companies suddenly start delivering their best products ever as the old guard just starts to retire or die out. Just Pokemon, all the sega franchises, fighting games in 2030 just all end up being super hype
So, most online games since the inception of online gaming use "delay-based" netcode, where a server waits for the Internet packets to come through before any action is taken, and is in a constant state of that once connected. Since there's travel time between a person's communication with a server or fellow player, there's a noticeable delay in input compared to playing offline. What we universally know as "Lag" is the product of this, where if the packets can't travel fast enough, the player simply freezes in place as the server waits for the packets. In fighting games, where every single frame is important and can mean the different between a win or loss, delay-based netcode handicaps EVERYONE. Rollback netcode is much harder to explain, but to simplify it, it's "The game anticipates what your next input(s) will be, and plays out the action prematurely while it waits for your actual Internet packets to arrive so as to prevent any lag, jitters, or freezing. If it's wrong, it 'rolls it back' by undoing the false action, BUT, if it's right, the game continues completely seamlessly, no delay or waiting to be done." Rollback when implemented correctly basically constantly makes correct guesses, and the end result is playing with someone across the globe as if they're in the same room with you. Rollback is rarely done badly; when it is, players are teleporting everywhere because the system keeps making wrong guesses and having to course-correct constantly, which is bad in itself. What's WORSE is the infinitely more common, INHERENT flaws of delay-based netcode. When there's no host server like in MMOs and other 3+ player games, the players connect directly to each other through the server. If you're in California and your opponent is in Hong Kong? The time travel between packets results in horrible lag and input latency. You press a button and your action comes out a full second later at best, if you're even lucky enough to be playing a game whose delay-based netcode is that well-implemented. Rollback is basically magic, and for some reason, Japanese fighting game dinosaurs refuse to use the magic that will keep their games' online scenes alive for more than a month or two.
I played VFUS on launch day in the evening with a wired connection on decent internet and was unable to get a match for an hour. I played Power Rangers Battle for the Grid this morning on a wireless switch on terrible internet and got a stable match within 1 second.
They were effectively in charge in the early 1990s before Japan sabotaged them and demoted them to nothing but a marketing branch. Look up the development of Sonic X-treme if you want to learn more about that.
@@NeoBoneGirl I know it has been a minute. But Jesus fuck this is not true. Most online games utilize a form of rollback in order to compensate with lag and hardware that is lacking. Fuck, Quake had rollback back in the 90s.
Oh so this where RPG/JRPG story lines where the main protags say "The old generation era has pass, they should step aside so that the younger generation can live their lives"
I refuse to believe 3D is much more difficult to implement Rollback on when Killer Instinct and MK11 exist. Sure, they're fighting on a 2D plane, but everything else is in 3D. I can't imagine changing the gameplay layout will make it harder for rollback. Yeah, call that fucking meteor down. Those dinosaurs lived long enough. WTF Harada.
I’m waiting for SEGA to release more Dreamcast games. I really hope someone gets the rights to blue stinger and Illbleed so it can be ported to PC Would be really funny if a meteor really is coming and we built lots really big Railgun.
Sega JP ruining things again involving VF? Back in the day Sega JP killed off Eternal Champions to artificially push VF and it didn't work. In a way I'm kinda glad VF keeps failing for them and I don't mind or hate the franchise at all. Sega JP ... LISTEN TO OTHER PEOPLE! it's why you failed before!
I miss eternal champions. It was the first fighter I actually enjoyed. ...Which is absurd because I'm comparing it to PS1 and PS2 fighters in addition to older ones.
All I hear are excuses and if and I mean IF there's like another big lockdown or something where people aren't able to go outside guess what games they're playing not Tekken but GGS with rollback, not Soul Calibur but Killer Instinct that may be old but has rollback, and not SMASH BROS. Ultimate but Nickelodeon Brawl that has what say it with me ROLLBACK NETCODE! Forget Meteor let's get the Knights of the Round on their asses.
They keep calling the old Japanese execs dinosaurs because they refuse to change the way they do business (not implementing rollback in their fighting games, refusing to release certain titles outside of Japan, destroying source code for old titles, etc) and they understand that because of the corporate architecture of these zaibatsu, no one will challenge them until they are dead. Hence, the "meteor" that kills the "dinosaurs"
It's a high-level black magic from the Final Fantasy series, turned into a plot-relevant force of destruction in FFVII. This specific game's main villain is Sephiroth, who is a DLC fighter in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, a game in which Akira Yuki (basically the protagonist of Virtua Fighter) is present as an assist trophy in his original polygonal self. It's also the thing that killed the dinossaurs.
its highly disingenious to blame VF falling off on lack of rollback, there are more games on actual delay that didnt die in a month. vf is a dead francise, in the era before rollback vf was not popular, final showdown died quick. its VF not the netcode.
But thats the point here. A 'dead franchise' needs rollback more than anything else. Cus the pool of actually playable matches with rollback is massive compared to delay (+'absorption').
Anyone find it weird how Pat has no problem bringing up Matt or Liam in convo years later yet Matt and Liam never acknowledge his existense after the group split up, I don't know, Edit: it's like that one friend that thinks everything is cool but then everyone else plans around not including them in shit since they always get into fights
I don't find it that weird, it never felt like he and Matt had any intense beef aside from annoying each other, plus Matt doesn't have a podcast where Pat would come up. Liam on the other hand made it clear he does not like Pat, but that doesn't mean Pat is forbidden from saying his name.
@@Kango234 that's where it feels weird, why is one person so mad at the other to the point they practically are dead to the other without there being some kinda push back from the other side, I remember somebody said that Liam was playing a game that Pat had already played so he offered him help if he wanted it but liam had him blocked on twitter and then message "how could he say something like that like nothing is wrong" to me it just feels like at some point if someone hates you that much you would confront them about it, it just feels weird since they were a team but now half the team actively refuses to acknowledge their comembers existence
@@elneco4654 thing is Pat was like this even during the DMCV playthrough too, it just makes Matt and Liam look petty and i really like Matts personality
When will people learn that the gaming industry left behind Asia A LONG TIME AGO? Japan USED to be a leader in gaming.....and then mobile gacha happened and it's never been the same since. All of the old guard is too old and senile to make the good shit anymore. And there's not much new talent being cultivated because Japan is a senior centric country where you only have power if you are a fossil yourself. Like they can't even be bothered to join the 21st century unless they are literally brought in forcibly or with the threat of their company's death. And some like Sega don't even care about THAT! So I say leave them to rot. Other people are more than willing to fill the void they left behind. Just fucking SUPPORT THEM if you like them.
I dunno, I think some parts of Bandai Namco are starting (keyword: starting) to pull a head, same with a scattered few others. I firmly believe that if we get the dinos out in time, Japan can pull ahead again
You might've missed the tiny little fact that THE WESTERN INDUSTRY AIN'T SHIT. Whereas the Japanese industry has started to rust the Western industry has contracted plagues. From Microtransaction bullshit, phone trash on par with gacha or completely hallowed out creativity. Japanese games at least are actually good and only have problems like their online features not working because of dinosaurs.
@@cyberninjazero5659 Started to rust?! Where the heck were you during the 7th gen?! As soon as HD consoles came out Japan has been flopping around like a fish gasping for water. Whole companies up an vanished from BOTH SIDES. Japan retreated to mobile because it's easy money and most of them don't want to spend money to make something good. At least in the West indies are trying to make new shit that isn't "just another jrpg or VN game". Even China has been making some interesting shit on Steam funny enough. EDIT: as an addendum, its why you saw most of the Japanese "B Team" games on PSP, DS,and 3DS. All of their output was built on older tech and they just never wanted to upgrade or change their engines. And it's why most of that output looked like PS1 and PS2 leftovers. That's all they could afford or were willing to work on. It's sad
@@lordxmugen The moment you talk about Indies is the moment you undermine yourself. Indies can come from anywhere and in Japan they wouldn't have to deal with dinosaurs in their way so that's a moot point refocusing the discussion on AAAs. By the 8th things settled in the Japanese Industry, HD was a filter and the survivors had been decided series like Yakuza, Dragon Quest and Street Fighter would keep moving forward. While the Western industry shit itself hard into a freefalling decay more and more releases where just remasters of the generation that came directly before all of the adverse elements I mentioned started pilling up powerhouses like Bioware husked out I reiterate at least the Japanese Industry gives you good games regardless of certain key features having issues. To reframe things the reason we're talking about this at all is that fighting games, a mostly Japanese genre has bad netcode. What where the good Western fighting games of the 7th gen? MK9? Injustice? The field was baren and empty. My point is that It's not between Dinosaurs and those who move past them, it's between Dinosaurs and fuck all
This reminds me of how someone told me that there's no money in finding a cure for cancer, and how there's so much money involved in cancer treatment. There's no money in implementing rollback, but there's tons of money sticking with delay-based netcode. >_>;;
As someone who codes and knows network engineers, it's solely proximity that helps. You can't see the future, you can't have packets that aren't there. The dedicated server system is the best you can do at any real distance. Could the servers be routed better, yes, would individual rooms solve this, yes. Blame matchmaking before netcode. Blame your shit unregulated infrastructure not the one to three guys who have to make netcode work. Don't blame devs who don't want to spend time testing network stability for p2p that's globally shit anyway. The reason they talk about predictive AI is because that's really the most they can do when wifi homies in upstate NY on optimum are bitching about bad connectivity. God rollback kiddies need to shut up.
So, there's no feasible way, now and in the future, for someone in California to play a fighting game match with someone in Hong Kong, and experience absolute zero latency? Even under optimal conditions? No system exists or will exist that could possibly remedy that scenario? No currently existing game as an example either? Nothing? We've reached the endpoint of the topic?
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll Put simply, at current technological standards, yes. New internet infrastructure that does not currently exist would have to become prevalent and games would probably have to have much looser inputs requirements or built in large buffers, not unlike like the 10 frame buffer in VF in offline play. Games would also have to be much much slower.
Woolie staring up into the air with the lights illuminating his face and shouting "METEOR PLEASE COME" is the mood of 2021 so far
Hey man, we're getting Metroid Dread. That meteor can wait for a year
@@thegreygoblin5165
I just had the thought that were possibly gonna have Virtua Fighter, Metroid Dread, and a new Melty Blood ALL in the same year. It feels like 2007 again in a weird way.
the mood of cowards maybe.
Sega of America: Please let us use rollback.
Nintendo of America: You're asking for rollback? We JUST got netcode that doesn't try to run Windows 98 first.
Capcom USA: They just keep using delay-based, but slap a different hat on it and present it as new like some Weekend at Bernie's shtick.
Namco Bandai USA: You guys are actually acknowledged by the JP branches????
Well, no, SFV does have rollback. It's just shitty.
Capcom actually does have rollback.
SFV’s was terrible while MVCI’s was great
i don't understand the Weekend at Bernie's joke. delay-based is dead, i guess? i don't know things!
@@miguelnewmexico8641 delay based had been dead since rollback invalidated it from the PS360 gen, yet devs decided to continue to bring out its carcass for years
Capcom USA: Only if we don't mention The Forbidden Series.
More then anything I died inside hearing about them destroying game masters and documents. Like it’s something we can assume some companies do or have done, but hearing it confirmed is horrifying from a standpoint of game preservation.
Sega's weirdly paranoid about a lot of things. They barely let western writers even touch the Sonic franchise ever since they let Penders abscond with a literal village of characters.
I just realized that they destroyed their copy of the contract and that's how Penders could get away with that doctored photocopy shit.
When Woolie Madden prays to Madara Uchiha of all people to drop a meteor on the games industry you know it's gotten bad.
Can't believe Woolie and Pat are gonna summon Bahamut just to A Realm Reborn the boards of dinosaurs companies in Japan.
Meh. I’m waiting for someone to say “Fine. I’ll do it myself” basically making a fool of SEGA of Japan and showing that rollback was the correct decision.
@@MisteRRYouTuby the fact that Pat's crazy talk about a bot/TAS winning evo only hasn't happened YET is my only hope other than the meteor/bahamut irl.
Remember that we once rolled back.
So the thing is Harada's whole "a bunch of things will look kinda bad because you'll notice rollbacks more" thing isn't technically even that wrong. NRS and Capcom got around this just fine because it's an issue with the way 3D models are animated, but whatever. Unlike 99% of what comes out of Harada's mouth about netcode, this actually isn't a fucking lie. What Harada does not seem to understand is that animation jitter in rollback is only as common is button presses that trigger new animation (common, but not *that* common), and also that people prefer a vastly better gameplay experience to perfect animation.
Oh god the "People prefer a vastly better gameplay experience to perfect animation" sentiment is something I would've launched with extreme prejudice at the face of whoever at Nintendo turned down rollback for Smash Ult because apparently the visuals would have suffered in an online environment.
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll This is Japan's problem, a lot of Japanese devs have this whole thing about "muh artistic vision" whereas here in the west we tend to be a lot more pragmatic about that. Same thing with modding, where in the west it tends to be more like "hey someone modded our game! Sick!" and the Japanese response would probably be more along the lines of "wait. That's illegal."
I mean, here in the west, outside of fighting games, John Carmack settled this argument fucking *decades* ago, because in 1996 playing at 300ms ping, waiting for the server to tell you your character had started moving and assuming it would happen was the difference between literally unplayable and halfway decent, even if sometimes you got teleported by packet loss or you had to lead your shots differently.
@@THB192 Well...some American devs have a "muh artistic vision" problem as they sacrifice good controls for smooth animation. But I know what you mean, Japan is VERY stuck in their ways.
But yeah we haven't really gotten a 3D fighter with rollback yet, have we? I'm curious what this jitter would actually look like and if clever programming could smooth it out. I'm trying to think of anything that might be able to show me rollback on a 3D fighter. I know Mednafen is delay based apparently despite being quite good, so NullDCBear or Dolphin?
@@GELTONZ Nope, all delay. If you're wondering what the jitter would look like... NRS games and also Melee will give you some idea. They're smoothly animated like a 3D fighter, which is one of the points that Harada mentioned.
One thing that is a complication is rolling back changes in camera angle, which could look pretty bad (if you've ever played am FPS on a bad link you might have experienced this). There are genuinely a lot of challenges in doing rollback in any game, and 3D fighters do have unique issues 2D ones don't experience to the same degree. But *also*, Harada doesn't just say "it's hard" or "we're working on it, give us time", he lies, he distracts, he confuses the issue, he does everything he can to he unclear and condescending in his responses to rollback requests, rather than *directly addressing* the fact that Tekken has shitty netcode and wil continue to have shitty netcode and that he and his team *should* have fixing that, however long it takes and no matter the effort, as priority one, or if that's infeasible than making damn sure that it's not like this in Tekken 8.
And yet most of Tekken's animations have aged like milk.
I think we all died with woolie when pat said dinosaurs said no rollback to the begging employees
Now they're gonna say, "Well, there's no point in making another sequel to Virtual Fighter, there's no interest in the game."
No they released a statement that it did well beyond expectations. The rollback debate is something they can always address in an actual new game, but what matters is shit worked out where I needed to.
Capcom did a similar thing with sengoku basara in the states
@@MagillanicaLouM [citation needed]
@@IndoorSitup citation is their twitter account lol. Was only like a couple weeks ago
Glad the title “swindler of progress” can still get some play.
That's a pretty creative way of saying "I wish all those old bastards would drop dead." It's ok, I've been there.
Still, things like these is what makes the occasional miracle (like Persona 4 on Steam) all the more impactful.
Same thing with the Guilty Gear +R Rollback mod. When a company actually supports a a group of modders implementing Rollback into a game and makes it OFFICIAL, instead of cancelling the project all-together. Now, both the older members of the community and the newcomers who jump into Strive can have both coexist as a community at the same time without the other one being left behind.
Though in all honesty, I would have prefered Rev 2 getting rollback since I didn't enjoy +R all that much in comparison to Strive. (+R may be more mechanically in depth, but presentation does play an important part in terms of my enjoyment somewhat, which is why I end up liking Strive more. Strive's pacing also fits better for me personally.)
My prefrences aside, this was a great decision by the devs that helped out the community from dying out in the long run. Let's hope Rev 2 gets the same treatement in the future.
Would kill everyone though. Not really a joke that works
Gotta A Realm Reborn the board of exec's.
it's okay ill say, i wish all those old bastards would fucking die or at the very least be fired for ludicrous incompetence
@@mikaelamonsterland who has the power to fire them?
1:40 Woolie:"its God up there today? No? Ok..."
This entire section involves Pat and Woolie vocally wishing for the deaths of people. It’d be despicable if it wasn’t so understandable.
Also helps that there is an all too real chance many of these same people are war criminals and raped a bunch of women.
So yeah, come ooooonnn meteor.
On today's episode of "why are old people so unreasonable"
Korean MMO's suffer a TON from this as well. It's not an issue endemic of "Asians" though, China is a HUGE country that also has huge pockets of poor broadband infrastructure just like us. Only these guys living on little islands and penninsulas seem to think NetCode isn't important
"we've solved the energy crisis. World hunger shouldn't be a problem anymore. We could easily expand into space if the planet became to crowded. So why? Why did it end up like this?"
Perhaps it is the price for the original sin.
In democracy we choose our leaders not for their intelligence or capability, but for how handsome or affable they are.
@@ATMOSK1234 doom and gloom. doom and gloom.
I don't want to cure cancer! I want to turn people into dinosaurs!
It's always the old heads messing stuff up for everyone
B-but muh status quo , muh traditions
Someone needs to make a Sopranos-style manga about ex-Yakuza trying to implement themselves back into society, but it ends up them being really bizarre video game businessmen
you know, when I was listening to this on audio yesterday, I had a picture of Woolie in my head. And when Pat said "NAAAAAAH," the Woolie in my head had the exact same look in his eyes as the real Woolie did.
Remember, that Nickelodeon fighter has rollback and uses 3D models.
The first couple weeks of Ultimate Showdown seem to have massively surpass expectations already, according the official VF Twitter, and updates are still being actively worked on and released. VF6 is still a possibility, but we still need to be vocal about rollback if we want to see it implemented. Don't stop nagging.
Idc personally, my connection was fine but yeh if it's an improvement go ahead and add as long as the franchise isn't suffering due to outcry.
Ah yes, because being nagging twats is totally gonna make them reconsider. Totes.
Y'know that part where a bunch of people who work at their company were telling them to do something and they said fuck off? Why do you think they give a shit about anyone who doesn't literally live on their island?
@@GIZMONDO987 Being nagging twats is what got sony to change their mind about killing the PS3 store. Being a nagging twat towards companies works.
@@KaosMachina Because we're the ones who buy the product. VF6 is likely years away; there's enough time for things to change, especially if Sega sees other Japanese fighting game devs taking the time to implement rollback. If we keep screaming at them and they ignore us, then release a sub-par product that we don't buy, we get to say "we told you so" and move on to games that have what we asked for.
Rollback of the North Star, which is just Woolie in the wasteland futilely hunting for games with Rollback after the meteors drop
Releasing VF a week from Guilty Gear Strive might not have been the best idea as well.
Not really the game is free on ps plus I’m kinda upset cuz I didn’t have an issue with lag on my end shit sucks
@@thenegromancer4695 You say you didn't, but you eventually would've.
@@madthrasher88 yea all good things don’t last long lmao I just got lucky
There's an awful lot of jobs dedicated to preventing your place of employment from making money, aren't there?
Sega of Japan knew that they would not use Rollback Netcode. So instead of reflecting on themselves, they called for Meteor.
Destroying documentation for the Phantasy Star games? God, that hurts my soul to read...
Wow i say Woolies soul leave his body at the 1:38 mark
Oh god I forgot about "Don't ask me for sh*t". He probably thinks it's still cute that he's not listening to anyone.
Yeah it was endearing at first......
So what if in like 5-10 years, all the big japanese game companies suddenly start delivering their best products ever as the old guard just starts to retire or die out. Just Pokemon, all the sega franchises, fighting games in 2030 just all end up being super hype
hopefully , fuck em all
it's probably been pointed out, but this actually wasn't from harada's podcast, but rather an interview with 4gamer
*Blue Mage* : Where we dropping boys
*the tilted fighting game player towers*
(for those who don't get, one of the Final Fantasy XIV skills that Blue Mage can get is Choc Meteor, a chocobo variant of Meteor)
The bastion of people insisting on 'the old ways' instead of rollback netcode - but behind even them is the holdout of the *NO NETCODE* developers.
Aw, the never-ending tale of: Old men ruin society.
It's literally everytime.
What exactly is rollback? I've never heard of it till these guys mentioned it.
So, most online games since the inception of online gaming use "delay-based" netcode, where a server waits for the Internet packets to come through before any action is taken, and is in a constant state of that once connected. Since there's travel time between a person's communication with a server or fellow player, there's a noticeable delay in input compared to playing offline. What we universally know as "Lag" is the product of this, where if the packets can't travel fast enough, the player simply freezes in place as the server waits for the packets. In fighting games, where every single frame is important and can mean the different between a win or loss, delay-based netcode handicaps EVERYONE.
Rollback netcode is much harder to explain, but to simplify it, it's "The game anticipates what your next input(s) will be, and plays out the action prematurely while it waits for your actual Internet packets to arrive so as to prevent any lag, jitters, or freezing. If it's wrong, it 'rolls it back' by undoing the false action, BUT, if it's right, the game continues completely seamlessly, no delay or waiting to be done." Rollback when implemented correctly basically constantly makes correct guesses, and the end result is playing with someone across the globe as if they're in the same room with you.
Rollback is rarely done badly; when it is, players are teleporting everywhere because the system keeps making wrong guesses and having to course-correct constantly, which is bad in itself. What's WORSE is the infinitely more common, INHERENT flaws of delay-based netcode. When there's no host server like in MMOs and other 3+ player games, the players connect directly to each other through the server. If you're in California and your opponent is in Hong Kong? The time travel between packets results in horrible lag and input latency. You press a button and your action comes out a full second later at best, if you're even lucky enough to be playing a game whose delay-based netcode is that well-implemented.
Rollback is basically magic, and for some reason, Japanese fighting game dinosaurs refuse to use the magic that will keep their games' online scenes alive for more than a month or two.
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll Ah. Thank you very much for explaining.
I played VFUS on launch day in the evening with a wired connection on decent internet and was unable to get a match for an hour. I played Power Rangers Battle for the Grid this morning on a wireless switch on terrible internet and got a stable match within 1 second.
In the year of 2021, we have a "new" fighting game that hasn't left the early 2000's.
At this point we need the Japanese players to scream rollback at these companies because its like their ears are set to filter out gaijin screaming.
My friend and I really enjoy it! But I admit it was tough learning some of the basics
I guess that means snk and arc system works are the fighting game chads now
Paranoid yakuza burning a bunch of old game cartridges to preserve their secrets sounds like prime fodder for a substory in an RGG game.
Oh good now we can chant for harada to be fired then net code
I remember the other line that's something to the effect of "We don't want to use technology that isn't made in Japan"
It really sounds like Sega of America should be in charge instead.
They were effectively in charge in the early 1990s before Japan sabotaged them and demoted them to nothing but a marketing branch. Look up the development of Sonic X-treme if you want to learn more about that.
Sega America and Sega Europe both are weighed down by SoJ. The Yakuza of Sammy especially won't listen to anyone.
@@Relugus Yakuza are getting cracked down on in General in Japan so......yeah.
Wasn't there a clip a feew weeks ago where they talked Harada making shit up?? I can't find it and I swear it was here
Not to let SEGA off but props to the ones there who tried to ask for VF rollback and trying to get Judgement on PC.
This is why I barely play anything online.
JRPGs and Character Action games for me going forward. 🤦♂️
There are so many good online games though. That is an incredibly limiting way of thinking.
@@1wayroad935 It also doesn't affect any genre but fighting games lol
You know what runs decent online and has a free trial up to level 60? :)))))))))))))))
just play Runescape.
@@NeoBoneGirl I know it has been a minute. But Jesus fuck this is not true. Most online games utilize a form of rollback in order to compensate with lag and hardware that is lacking.
Fuck, Quake had rollback back in the 90s.
I guess that explains why Sega, who once stood next to Nintendo during the Great Console Wars, is now licking their boots.
Oh so this where RPG/JRPG story lines where the main protags say "The old generation era has pass, they should step aside so that the younger generation can live their lives"
Now I wanna see their reaction to Nick Allstar Brawl having rollback
Why can't I find the podcast on ITunes?
Dinosaur Japan fighting game dev's: Nrooommmm...Nroooommmmm........Nroooooooommmmmm.
Why weren't people this vocal about netcode back in the day?
Cus "online doesnt matter lmao, just go to a local dumbass" .... Aka, stuck in a bubble, not realizing all other games have functioning online.
I refuse to believe 3D is much more difficult to implement Rollback on when Killer Instinct and MK11 exist. Sure, they're fighting on a 2D plane, but everything else is in 3D. I can't imagine changing the gameplay layout will make it harder for rollback.
Yeah, call that fucking meteor down. Those dinosaurs lived long enough. WTF Harada.
I mean, both those games look like ass, which is what Harada was talking about
Wait the third one this week? Wtf were the other two?
literally everyone: rollback pls
japanese fighting game devs: ÑŐ
There should've been pc/steam release as well.
I’m waiting for SEGA to release more Dreamcast games. I really hope someone gets the rights to blue stinger and Illbleed so it can be ported to PC
Would be really funny if a meteor really is coming and we built lots really big Railgun.
Society would improve if we make people jump off cliffs when they hit 70 like in Midsommar
Hey if they never put in net code then they will die out. Is sad but they need to learn.
Sega JP ruining things again involving VF?
Back in the day Sega JP killed off Eternal Champions to artificially push VF and it didn't work.
In a way I'm kinda glad VF keeps failing for them and I don't mind or hate the franchise at all.
Sega JP ... LISTEN TO OTHER PEOPLE! it's why you failed before!
I miss eternal champions. It was the first fighter I actually enjoyed. ...Which is absurd because I'm comparing it to PS1 and PS2 fighters in addition to older ones.
All I hear are excuses and if and I mean IF there's like another big lockdown or something where people aren't able to go outside guess what games they're playing not Tekken but GGS with rollback, not Soul Calibur but Killer Instinct that may be old but has rollback, and not SMASH BROS. Ultimate but Nickelodeon Brawl that has what say it with me ROLLBACK NETCODE! Forget Meteor let's get the Knights of the Round on their asses.
I hate how bright woolie’s lighting is, turn that shit down
lol lol
What’s Meteor and what does it have to do with Virtua Fighter?
They keep calling the old Japanese execs dinosaurs because they refuse to change the way they do business (not implementing rollback in their fighting games, refusing to release certain titles outside of Japan, destroying source code for old titles, etc) and they understand that because of the corporate architecture of these zaibatsu, no one will challenge them until they are dead. Hence, the "meteor" that kills the "dinosaurs"
It's a high-level black magic from the Final Fantasy series, turned into a plot-relevant force of destruction in FFVII. This specific game's main villain is Sephiroth, who is a DLC fighter in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, a game in which Akira Yuki (basically the protagonist of Virtua Fighter) is present as an assist trophy in his original polygonal self.
It's also the thing that killed the dinossaurs.
@@BrazillianCara LOL yeah a bit round about but basically this
#VirtuaFighter2sdays
its highly disingenious to blame VF falling off on lack of rollback, there are more games on actual delay that didnt die in a month. vf is a dead francise, in the era before rollback vf was not popular, final showdown died quick. its VF not the netcode.
But thats the point here. A 'dead franchise' needs rollback more than anything else. Cus the pool of actually playable matches with rollback is massive compared to delay (+'absorption').
Anyone find it weird how Pat has no problem bringing up Matt or Liam in convo years later
yet Matt and Liam never acknowledge his existense after the group split up, I don't know, Edit:
it's like that one friend that thinks everything is cool but then everyone else plans around not including them in shit since they always get into fights
Yes to the question, but jeez, that analogy really lost me in the second half.
I don't find it that weird, it never felt like he and Matt had any intense beef aside from annoying each other, plus Matt doesn't have a podcast where Pat would come up. Liam on the other hand made it clear he does not like Pat, but that doesn't mean Pat is forbidden from saying his name.
I'd say it feels more like Pat moved on and holds no grudge on them.
@@Kango234 that's where it feels weird, why is one person so mad at the other to the point they practically are dead to the other without there being some kinda push back from the other side, I remember somebody said that Liam was playing a game that Pat had already played so he offered him help if he wanted it but liam had him blocked on twitter and then message "how could he say something like that like nothing is wrong"
to me it just feels like at some point if someone hates you that much you would confront them about it, it just feels weird since they were a team but now half the team actively refuses to acknowledge their comembers existence
@@elneco4654 thing is Pat was like this even during the DMCV playthrough too, it just makes Matt and Liam look petty and i really like Matts personality
When will people learn that the gaming industry left behind Asia A LONG TIME AGO? Japan USED to be a leader in gaming.....and then mobile gacha happened and it's never been the same since. All of the old guard is too old and senile to make the good shit anymore. And there's not much new talent being cultivated because Japan is a senior centric country where you only have power if you are a fossil yourself. Like they can't even be bothered to join the 21st century unless they are literally brought in forcibly or with the threat of their company's death. And some like Sega don't even care about THAT!
So I say leave them to rot. Other people are more than willing to fill the void they left behind. Just fucking SUPPORT THEM if you like them.
I dunno, I think some parts of Bandai Namco are starting (keyword: starting) to pull a head, same with a scattered few others. I firmly believe that if we get the dinos out in time, Japan can pull ahead again
You might've missed the tiny little fact that THE WESTERN INDUSTRY AIN'T SHIT. Whereas the Japanese industry has started to rust the Western industry has contracted plagues. From Microtransaction bullshit, phone trash on par with gacha or completely hallowed out creativity. Japanese games at least are actually good and only have problems like their online features not working because of dinosaurs.
@@cyberninjazero5659 Started to rust?! Where the heck were you during the 7th gen?! As soon as HD consoles came out Japan has been flopping around like a fish gasping for water. Whole companies up an vanished from BOTH SIDES. Japan retreated to mobile because it's easy money and most of them don't want to spend money to make something good. At least in the West indies are trying to make new shit that isn't "just another jrpg or VN game". Even China has been making some interesting shit on Steam funny enough.
EDIT: as an addendum, its why you saw most of the Japanese "B Team" games on PSP, DS,and 3DS. All of their output was built on older tech and they just never wanted to upgrade or change their engines. And it's why most of that output looked like PS1 and PS2 leftovers. That's all they could afford or were willing to work on. It's sad
@@lordxmugen The moment you talk about Indies is the moment you undermine yourself. Indies can come from anywhere and in Japan they wouldn't have to deal with dinosaurs in their way so that's a moot point refocusing the discussion on AAAs. By the 8th things settled in the Japanese Industry, HD was a filter and the survivors had been decided series like Yakuza, Dragon Quest and Street Fighter would keep moving forward. While the Western industry shit itself hard into a freefalling decay more and more releases where just remasters of the generation that came directly before all of the adverse elements I mentioned started pilling up powerhouses like Bioware husked out I reiterate at least the Japanese Industry gives you good games regardless of certain key features having issues.
To reframe things the reason we're talking about this at all is that fighting games, a mostly Japanese genre has bad netcode. What where the good Western fighting games of the 7th gen? MK9? Injustice? The field was baren and empty. My point is that It's not between Dinosaurs and those who move past them, it's between Dinosaurs and fuck all
@@cyberninjazero5659 you mean the same franchises that could never die or be allowed to die? Yeah some fucking "settling" that turned out to be, eh?
This reminds me of how someone told me that there's no money in finding a cure for cancer,
and how there's so much money involved in cancer treatment.
There's no money in implementing rollback,
but there's tons of money sticking with delay-based netcode.
>_>;;
As someone who codes and knows network engineers, it's solely proximity that helps. You can't see the future, you can't have packets that aren't there. The dedicated server system is the best you can do at any real distance. Could the servers be routed better, yes, would individual rooms solve this, yes. Blame matchmaking before netcode. Blame your shit unregulated infrastructure not the one to three guys who have to make netcode work. Don't blame devs who don't want to spend time testing network stability for p2p that's globally shit anyway. The reason they talk about predictive AI is because that's really the most they can do when wifi homies in upstate NY on optimum are bitching about bad connectivity. God rollback kiddies need to shut up.
So, there's no feasible way, now and in the future, for someone in California to play a fighting game match with someone in Hong Kong, and experience absolute zero latency? Even under optimal conditions? No system exists or will exist that could possibly remedy that scenario? No currently existing game as an example either? Nothing? We've reached the endpoint of the topic?
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll Put simply, at current technological standards, yes. New internet infrastructure that does not currently exist would have to become prevalent and games would probably have to have much looser inputs requirements or built in large buffers, not unlike like the 10 frame buffer in VF in offline play. Games would also have to be much much slower.
“As someone who..” yes yes the most trust worthy way to start your poor argument