The Herbert Sobel Debacle [Part 2] The Chain Reaction (Band of Brothers/Easy Company)
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- This is the 2nd part of the series which covers the aftermath of Captain Sobel's transfer out of Easy Company and how it effected two men in particular.
First Video - • The Herbert Sobel Deba...
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It’s crazy how a miniseries from 25 years ago still makes me want to know as much about that story as possible. Can’t get enough of military documentaries. Just so much respect for the men that made these tales.
Some stories are so timeless.
I can't believe it's been that long...
@@ffjsb I just saw it last year...
There is a RUclipsr called "The History Underground" that has put out some amazing videos about Dick Winters and Easy Company. Look him up and watch these as well as others on WWII as well as the Civil War.. You will be glad you did!
Truly a testament to the impact of BoB.
It's up there with the greatest television shows ever created in my mind.
I had never been so blown away when I saw it for the first time when it was airing.
And keep in mind that OZ, The Sopranos, etc. Had already been out, not finished airing, but they were still a couple seasons (more than a couple in OZ's case) deep.
I still hold by that opinion today.
Band of Brothers is probably the greatest thing that HBO ever did.
Even if you disagree, you know damn well it's top 3.
As a soldier who went form E1-O4 (and a Soldier who had a "Rendezvous with Destiny" in 2003) I believe COL Sink did the right thing. To uphold the rule of law as a leader is one of the toughest things to do, even when you disagree with the decision. without order there is no cohesiveness, without cohesiveness there's no unit. etc, etc.
My observation based upon 22 years as a Marine infantry officer is that Col .Sink was required by unwritten tradition to relieve the leaders of the complaining soldiers. I have witnessed relief of several executive officers after reporting incompetence of their immediate commander. Subsequent to relief of the XO, the CO is relieved. The idea seems to be that in furtherance of good order and discipline, relief is necessary to avoid rewarding disloyalty and to warn future whistleblowers that the offense complained of must be so unbearable that the whistleblower is willing to give up his career. Similarly, the officer upon which the Caine Mutiny is based is recorded on RUclips speaking at a presentation at which he related that that he was relieved, a new XO replaced him, then the captain was relived, and, lastly, the new XO was appo0inted to command --- all to avoid the whistleblower profiting from his report.
I was a Royal Marine. In Norway 82 we had an incompetent Troop Commander the Troop Sergeant of many years service and very professional complained about him and it was the sergeant who was removed although it was known by the Company Commander that the officer was lacking. The hierarchy will support the chain of command which I agree with then subtle act. We were brought back from leave to embark to the Falkland Islands for a real ding dong. The troop cdr was sacked without any ceremony and was a civilian by midday of that first Monday back. The Tp Sgt did not return. In that same winter deployment the Coy 2ic who was under a 3 month warning (we did not know) had performed ashore. I and one other stopped it got him back to the mess although he was extremely drunk and aggressive. I thought nothing of it nor did my oppo. But in a passing conversation it came to light what had happened. We were both told to report to the coy cdr expecting the wrath of god but he thanked us for helping him and not making an issue of it, nor kicking the shit out of him (regardless of rank he is a brother marine and we understand drunk behavior so no biggie.). This 2ic was also a civilian PDQ. We stayed. I had a great time as as a fighting company marine shit happens now and again but these two episodes were the only time I saw this and was very informative as I got older and wiser. Poor leadership at any level has to be dealt with immediately.
Have you ever read any harry turtledove books? If so have to read the Southern victory series…. In it you have a sailor name Sam Carsten a bright enlisted sailor that is encouraged to take the test to become a mustang officer. Eventual he is promoted and given a destroyer escort to command. Along the way he gets stuck with an XO he doesn’t particularly like. There becomes a dispute between the XO and a petty officer. Captain Carsten takes the petty officers side of the dispute and acts on it….. HOWEVER he also realized that by acting on it he has risked empowering the petty officer beyond his station so to preserve ship’s discipline he also transfers the petty officer off the ship. In the military even a lateral transfer can be an obstruction to promotion and thus its not fair to “punish” the petty officer in this way, but crew discipline is more important than any one man , as Jack Aubrey told his friend and doctor “i can afford to have ONE rebel on this ship, but not TWO”
I was a Corpsman with an Arty battalion. One of the batteries I was assigned to had a very disliked CO, both by the Marines he commanded, and his fellow officers. One day on an exercise in 29 Palms, the regimental CO was making rounds and came upon a road guard station at the batteries perimeter. The Colonel made an inspection and decided the road guard station did not have enough water and relieved the Battery CO on the spot. This was not immediately after the Jason Rother incident, but it was still in recent memory, and I believe he probably used that as an excuse to his superiors, but the rank and file all think the Colonel was a gunning for him because not a thing happened to the squad leader, or any of the NCO's, whom we all know are the first ones responsible for things like that.
I should also add. What makes a difference between an average company and an excellent one is good leadership at all levels and in particular the NCOs. The platoon(or company) cannot be led by the officer once an assault begins and or an independent actions. Movies always show an officer doing and saying what an NCO would do. The officer once he commits the sub unit has to let the pack do its business while he coordinates up and around. The good well trained NCO can think up and make his own good decisions as the battle or opportunities present themselves which no other can see. If he just stops to wait to be told what to do the battle normally goes to shit.
@@chrissheppard5068Didn’t happen. Name the company 😂
2:28 Lt. Meehan proved that Sobel didn’t have to be an asshole but chose to be one.
Did not know you were there and an eye witness, thank you for your service
Its a classic case of insecurity masked by overcompensation, high school psych class. No need to be a smart az, Mark.
(Army veteran, officer) Meehan got Easy Company (5th company in the regiment) because he had seniority. The 1st Sergeant the men hated died while serving his country; we need to cut those guys some slack - only the survivors were able to present their side of the story. If Winters had been given the company for D-Day, the story might have been about Meehan. In combat, they don't promote the best, they promote who is left. It says something about Winters that even after being promoted out of the company, the men still looked upon him as their leader.
100%, as great as the TV mini-series was, it is a TV drama. The 1st Sgt died on d-day, Sobel lead a few men assaulting a machine gun nest, Norman Dike lead successful assaults and was wounded while commanding E Company. They may not hand have stellar leadership abilities but none of these men were cowards and all of them saw combat. We have a much different training regiment in modern times and it skews some the historical perspective but the biggest take away for me that is still taught is know the job of the guy above you because you can be in his seat with no warning.
Sobel ran the risk of getting fragged on D-Day had he jumped with Easy Co. IMHO.
I'd say so.
Absolutely.
I don’t think it would have been a risk, I think it would have been a certainty.
Except if he had been in the plane instead of Lt Meehan, maybe he would have been killed instead of Meehan.
@@RicktheCrofter Maybe... butterfly effect is a crazy thing.
Thank you for posting this bit of history. Much appreciated.
Glad you enjoyed it
I love Simon Pegg in that role - he's like, "Look at me guys with my American accent. Let's go to a ball game and eat hot dogs and enjoy watered down beer."
Sounds pretty American to me
Lmfao 😂
My Dad Talked About The War & I Remember Him Mentioning Captain Sobel. I Keep Hoping To See Him In These Old Video Clips. Thank You.
Who was your dad?
Why are you capitalizing the first letter of every word? Sorry not sorry for calling you out.
Do you remember what he said about the Captain?
Relieving Sobel was the best course of action. Sink probably realized Sobel was not well regarded, but that the other officers of East AND THE NCO's gave the Company a lot of stability, high morale and the ability to function under fire; despite Sobel's incompetence.
The other option was to endorse a court martial against an officer for not finding out that the schedule had changed at the last minute.
I think Sink did the right thing with the limited options he had before D-Day. Can’t predict that the CO’s plane would be hit with a lot of battalion staff. It’s just war, that’s all it is - Hoot - Delta Force Somalia. God bless all those souls and thank you sir for the info
Decisions have to be made; actions have to be taken. Everything has the Butterfly Effect.
No one should be permitted to be an officer until they have absolutely mastered field navigation.
We would lose 70-80% of our junior officers... Not that they aren't lost already.
@JacenHawk
Yup and they might be forced to allow some enlisted guys to attend OCS .. without having a masters degree in gender studies
I am sorry but I don't think we should have officers at all. I had a doctor being a C.O. of training but the doctor had no idea what he was doing. We should have our officers being men who had started at the bottom and moved their way up instead of being officers right off the bat. Who thinks a Sgt. Major should be outranked by a 6 month Butterbar ??
@Sondan1988
Quite right in many ways.. some officers, often don't go much further than major though.. have started as enlisted.. but most haven't. The original idea was to have them lead the men and show them that they could keep going and that the privileged were also expected to fight. But that was back in the days where they just moved as solid formations.. nowadays however the usa especially keeps junior officers out of combat so that they can do political work and oversee the troops from outside weapon range.. so not much point.. still, at least the usa has actual nco personnel.. in the Russian military a normal guy goes on a course and is made into a sergeant.. which is bizarre.
He obviously found his way around France ok. The lesson learned is a sage old one, for young officers. Treat your men strict, fair and with respect. Because you will often have your back to them. His navigation issues were often aggravated by his subordinates as revenge for his brutal ways. He tried to be the RI, DI and the CO... doesn't work that way.
Thank you for filling in the blanks on the story of E, 506th PIR. Keep up the good work.
Thank you.
Sink waited far too long. His repeated inability to function in a field exercise, from Camp Mackall on to England, as well as his notorious inability to perform land navigation, should have seen him relieved much earlier.
It seems he was a bit untouchable, probably because he was there from there start. The men were scared stiff of him. He ended up a Lieutenant General in the end as well.
If Band of Brothers can be believed (its truth can not be assumed), Sobel should've been gone before they left the States. The fault of the whole latrine incident lies with Sink's command not acting on the evidence that Sobel was not suited for a combat leader.
Sobel did good job training them, but as for a company commander in the field, Sink should have transferred him before leaving for England
@@lemmdus2119 except in combat, Sobel performed very well.
During training, there were some alterations made to his maps by his men and other shenanigans.
Sobel's own incompetence is what made him so mean. It's not uncommon in any situation. Add in the pressure of military command and you've got a real asshole on your hands.
There's two types of officers who achieve promotions, and eventually the rank of General/Admiral... those whose performance, competence, and character merit the promotion/rank... and those who obtain their advancements in "other ways". And I'll leave it at that.
Like John McCain....
Knee pads?
This is yet another outstanding video on your channel Sir! It would be fascinating to be a proverbial fly on the wall observing you conduct your research. Your viewer numbers appear to be growing and the comments your viewers leave are also very informative. Finally, in response to your question, I thought the whole Sobel/latrine debacle was extraordinary. THANK YOU once again for all your efforts in publishing all this detailed information on your channel. ✅👍
Thank you as always.
Col. Sink did what was best for the regiment. Sobel was said to be inept as a combat leader but he was a competent staff officer
I'd like to thank you also I'm fairly new to Band of Brothers it has really got under my skin I visited Aldbourne last June and had a little look in the museum went and sat on the bench at the church and left some flowers at the graves of the Barnes family every little bit of this jigsaw is creating a greater picture your contribution has added quite a few pieces many thanks from all of the fans Mg essex uk
Thank you, and that was a lovely thing to do.
I had a commander who was just like Sobel in the marine corps..the man had been an ov10 pilot..passed over twice for major..the single most wired tyrant ive ever met..i had my degree wanting to go to ocs..i was meritorious promoted..finished 2nd in my class at infantry school...he was a good S3..but an absolute tyrant as a commander.
I must have met his brother in the USAF.
It seems to me there are two views of Sobel. 1. He did train Easy Company to be the finest Company in the Regiment. 2. In doing so he also came across as petty and tyrannical. It became clear early on that Winters was well respected by the men, something that didn’t sit well with Sobel. I think Sink made the right decision, even if that cost other lives, he probably saved more by transferring Sobel out.
I'd also like to add that if it wasn't for Winters and the NCO's doing their best to keep morale up with Sobel, Sobel would not have been as effective even as a training officer. I believe many men would have quit, and/or requested transfers out of the company.
One man does not train a company.
@@clybournstreet9628 Agreed, I think it was probably the combination of the two - Sobel being an SOB and others providing positive leadership.
Other companies yielded similar results without the undue demeaning attitude that Sobel used. If Sobel had not been transferred, the company losses would have been much greater.
@@johannasperski9838 exactly.
As sad as sond of the outcomes were, I believe Sink made decisions that struck an important balance; replacing Sobel for the benefit of Easy and punishing the 2 leaders of the NCO mutiny to send a message to future NCO's who might consider this as an option to buck the system.
Winters and Sobel both look exactly how I would imagine them to
Well researched and well done!! Thank you. ❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
I wish they had included Sobels bronze star actions in Band of brothers. Clearly he couldnt lead those kind of men into battle. But in the end he did save American lives by his actions and that deserves to be heard.
Sobel landing in Normandy would have been something to see.
2:05 Not necessarily. The butterfly effect is profound. Even a small change in the timeline like that can make all the difference. Maybe Sobel would have lollygagged for 3 seconds longer than Meehan. Causing that airplane to not be in that exact spot that flak shell hit the HQ's. Maybe the pilot would have turned around to say something to Sobel, and lost a few knots in airspeed.... or sped up. ETC. Maybe all of that happens and another flak shell that didn't hit anything in our timeline, hits. It's fascinating to consider.
It's like they say in the outfit that I work in regarding management.
Suck up, punch down.
So sobel would have shown one face to the colonel, and an entirely different attitude
Toward his subordinates.
Asking if Col Sink “did the right thing” can only be answered by examining what options Sink had at his disposal and what were the likely repercussion of those options.
Sink was pressed for time, and had an invasion looming , its difficult to know IF he had been informed about all of the false claims by sobel (that winters did NOT have a phone at his billet, and that Sobel did NOT send a runner) what had to be obvious to him that the reprimand itself was absurd and thus the motivation for the reprimand had to be suspect. His solution was to separate the commander and executive officer by the most effective way at his disposal, promote the captain out of the company but and then fill the vacancy in the command position from outside of the company. At the same time he solidified Winters position as company XO by finally filling his vacancy as platoon leader of Second platoon, once again by promoting from outside of the company.
Moving on to the NCOs here he had another problem, actually 2
1 the company first sgt…. Its seems pretty clear that he lied to back up his company commander’s lies, BUT when you weigh that with his other problem, the lower NCOS there isnt much he can do about that. The senior NCO may have had just been loyal to his commander, and unable to confidentially dispute the claim
Meanwhile the NCO mutiny left him with a paradox, sure it alerted him to a problem, but military discipline cannot allow a mutiny, even with good intentions, to go unpunished , so he made examples of the leaders of the delegation. ….
Great reply. Sink must have been somewhat aware of Sobel's inadequacies in the field and would have not let him command Easy into battle.
@@WorldWarTruth true…. IF we can use the series as an example you have the fence cutting incident, the “lets go get them” incident, and the “hi oh silver, is that the enemy incident”
Three occasions where Sobel F’ed up a tactical training exercise
….
Here is the thing….. you have mentioned that sobel being removed from command saved his life and condemned his replacement BUT had he remained in command, either because sink had not removed him, or by Sobel not being such an ass during training , then its also possible that Easy Company might have gotten a different D-Day mission assignment, putting headquarters platoon into a different plane
I'd have rather been a Pathfinder than come in the main wave. Some of those guys got torn to shreds before they ever had a chance to jump.
Yes, all of the transport planes, both US and British coming in later really copped hell.
An officers tactical and technical abilities are important, but trust is the most important virtue and officer needs to bestow onto his troops and is something that even west point can not teach. Col. Sink did the right thing. Having trust in your leader is the backbone in the affectedness of the troops bellow him or in today's terms him or her. In today's branches you have frequently heard the term removed from command due to a Loss of confidence. Nothing new to removal, just happens faster in peace time when there are plenty to fill the vacancy, but in war you don't have a surplus of officers and troops.
Good. Thanks.
I’ve experienced both commanders and senior NCOs exactly like sobel during my career!!! He should have been relieved much sooner than he was. But COL Sink finally did prior their first action. Even if he had stayed I believe he would have been relived in combat if he had survived the jump.
One thing your channel has done is made me realize there's more to peoples stories than we realize or want to admit. It's easy to dismiss Sobel as just a petty tyrant who would been an awful combat leader combat. But he did do some good on D-Day. The same can be said for Norman Dyke. Its easy to see as only Foxhole Norman. But was decorated for bravy. Great video and channel.
Sobel should have been a drill sergeant, not an officer. As for Dyke and some of the others, like Blythe... BOB is a made for TV drama... Spielberg had to create some villains, cowards etc to make it interesting for the viewers. So a drama within a drama to give it a ''Days of our Lives'' feel was probably inevitable. .. which is why some of those men have been sadly, been portrayed as less heroic than they really were. For example, Blythe was almost made out to be mentally retarded by Spielberg.. but it turns out he survived the war and was well thought of by his peers. Cheers ; ]
Much appreciated
@@user-kv1lp8ih8g Spielberg also got Blithe's death date blatantly wrong. The series said he died in 1948. He actually died in 1967.
@@82dorrin Yes mate, good call ; ]
I feel BOB did a horrible disservice to some people, Blythe and Dike being just two of them. I keep this in the back of my mind when it comes to Sobel also.
The Sobel transfer: an event that changed others. The whole matter another event in the insane nature of war.
I suspect Sobel would likely have been fragged by his own men had he stayed in command of Easy. The 'mutiny' saved his life.
There is no “right” decision. There is only THE decision. You can’t know which was right because you can never know what would have happened had you decided otherwise
I’ve often wondered about the reaction of Sobel’s relatives to the way he was portrayed in Band of Brothers.
I'm doing a video on that at the moment.
As it was wartime, Col. Sink had to realize what was going on and how deadly a combination of emotions were occurring in Easy Company. He couldn't relieve Sobel, he had no grounds other than his men disliked (hated) him. Likewise, the actions of the Noncoms couldn't just be let go as it could be used other times when a Sgt, or Sgt's don't like something. So it was the best decision he could make. Move Sobel out of a Command position and set an example to the Noncoms, "Don't do this again."
Well said.
Great stuff.
Glad you enjoyed it
Many of easy company actually credit Sobel with being one of the factors that made the unit what it was, several didn't like his depiction in BOB. The number of Easy company that advanced through the ranks lead Stephen Ambrose to write that Sobel must have 'been doing something right'. Anyway, his death was undeserved, blinded after his suicide attempt (he tried to shoot himself through the temple & severed his optic nerves), his latter years were spent in a veterans home, where he died (according to his death certificate) of malnutrition.
I would like to give Sobel the benefit of the doubt. After all, all we are hearing is the other side, not his. On the flip side, with one sole exception, he seems to have engendered a great hatred of himself by the rest. Suggesting that there must have been something to it. Therefore, I seriously doubt he gave any thought that he was the cause of his replacement's death. And I think it is pretty clear that he would have blamed Winters for the loss of Easy Company, not his own actions. His later life has a great element of sadness to it, but I would suspect that his suicide attempt was due to depression of his life not turning out as well as he would have liked, not for any regrets of his own actions. Again, I would like to give Sobel the benefit of the doubt, so I hope I am wrong. But I have run across similar people in my life, and it is never their fault. They are never Harry Truman.
It would have been interesting to find out if Sobel was changed by his transfer, that is to say did he learn anything from his experience and did his command demeanor change over the course of the war.
It sounds like he had a lot of hatred of Easy after the war. One of the veterans contacted him years later and he didn't want anything to do with reunions etc.
One thing to add, this all happened at a time war and not just any war but a war where losing was not an option! The attitude of the country was different.
I had acquaintance that was a AA gunner in a ship. On D Day he was ordered to shoot down any and all planes approaching the ship. He did just that friend and foe alike. Very different times.
Myself and @stevewehner9540 the only ones in the first video comments to make the connection Identities of WW2 makes here... that the Sergeants inadvertently saved Sobel's life at the cost of Meehan's. Identities wonders if Sobel thought about how his life was spared from Meehan's fate, but I wonder if the Sergeants thought about it. How their insubordinate actions, although well-intentioned, had negative consequences down the line, that fate would have taken its course and good men would have survived over bad men. Then again if Meehan survived maybe Winters never would have had his time to shine either. All you can do is wonder if they wondered.
Good point about the Sergeants. I'm not sure how close those guys were to Meehan. He was originally from a different company after all.
Hi Ho Silver!
Sobel trained those men well in dealing with adversity and disappointment. It was his sneaky alternative driven agenda (That the company saw) that was his major flaw....as well as lacking practical field infantry skills. I mustanged thru the ranks after enlisting in 1972, and OCS trained all in the various degrees of leadership that would gain respect of the troops.
My amateur take away: The Colonel should have known he had a martinet on his hands.
Sobel's problem it would seen he was all terror and no joy. Fighting men can understand and empathize with hard training and the suffering it brings...but all good leaders also know there is a time when you need to break out the kindness and generosity. You have to balance it or it will crack. At the end of the day, they were men.
Soble trained easy too be number 1 without a doubt. The real problem was that he could not stop being an ahole was just in his DNA. And that made him a poor leader at the end of it all. The man demanded perfection. Expected it of himself. I am sure that not being able to function on the battle field condition was a continuing frustration. But that was still not even a close to be the ahole and come down on Winters for something so small and petty.
I remember WW2 vets saying that an officer that was chewing him out had to be reminded that as he was living with a family that did not have a phone. There was simply no way for him to know what orders were being issued for that day if the messenger didn't show up. I think there was alot of miscommunication that happened at the time. And with everyone running around for the landing/jump. I imagine there was a lot of confusion going on as sometimes a needed message didn't get to the right person.
Soble was good in a training environment and was no coward as his bronze star proves. But his willingness to be an ahole was in the end his undoing. I think had he shown a more willingness to listen to his NCO's and recognize that in a battlefield condition that he had to learn more. I think would have gone a long ways to avoiding this debacle. Though would he have survived? As the plane did go down, but fate is fickle like that. On a battlefield it is even more fickle as to what can or does happen.
I guess you can't second-guess fate.
There is an aspect here that is not mentioned. The charges that Sobel brought against Winters over the latrine duty that started the debacle, were dismissed (by Sink or Strayer, I don't quite remember), and then the very next day, Sobel charged Winters with another petty violation. It was at that point where Sink decided to relive Sobel.
Yes I did read about that after I made this video.
Unfortunately sometimes the worst person gets into a position that they shouldn’t. Sobel was completely the wrong man to be in charge of a combat company.
What took place clearly occurred because Dick Winters is the main character of Easy Company.
Having both read the book and seen the show it's nice to see some other unknown stories behind the story.
Filling in a few gaps with details that give more context.
I actually feel bad for Sobel, sure he was a prize dick, but as said in the book, he was the one that really made Easy as elite as they were, just not exactly how he intended.
Physically, for sure, but the company united in their hatred for him, creating the first real step in making them the Band of Brothers.
His post war life and eventual method of passing shows he lived a life of many regrets and guilts.
It was a volunteer unit
One could have left at
Any time just by not meeting
The physical standard
Some were dismissed for
Arriving back late from
Weekend passes!
The 506th PIR had 14 companies, 9 of them infantry. None of the other companies have experienced the broad scrutiny Easy has. It is understandable that Col. Sink’s attention was on his other companies, that he had thus far seen nothing but excellence from Capt. Sobel and was hesitant to judge him harshly. Bias carries momentum. I am not justifying Col. Sink’s actions, rather exploring his perspective. He’s building a regiment from scratch to utilize a new unproven tactic by a largely untested group of men. We have the benefit of hindsight and are free of the burden Col. Sink carried. Was the colonel aware of Sobel’s incompetence, but lacked the resources to replace him? Did he have other perceived liabilities that he thought outweighed Sobel’s shortcomings?
In the end Sobel was placed where he was most useful. Certainly Sobel carried a survivors guilt and his resentments too. My experience is there are more incompetent people in leadership positions than well-rounded capable leaders. Many leaders I know are competent technically, but are insufferable. Or they are in the wrong role. Could you imagine Patton commanding a hospital?
Im really trying to find anything Colonel Sink said about Sobel during or after the war but so far nothing. There is very little said about Sink at all.
I see that Sobell attended the U. of Illinois/Champaign-Urbana. I grew up there (father a professor at the U) and I know that demand for perfection means repetition and demands for highest performance. Maybe Sobel had those demands and the soldiers were not willing to let a "Jew" command them in such a style.
It's fine to be a hardass, but you can't play tricks on your Soldiers in order to punish them for something they didn't do. In court martial proceedings, Sobel would have to explain how far in advance he had changed the time for the toilet inspection, and how he had informed Winters of the change. Winters took the honorable action in that scenario, Knowing that it might destroy him.
13000 views in 11 hours! Come on people subscribe, this guy is good!
I agree!! Lol Thanks mate
Either...
1. He would have died in place of Meehan...
2. Or he gets fragged when he hit the ground on Normandy.
He certainly wouldn't have made it past Bastogne.
@@WorldWarTruth He'd be lucky to get that far without someone tossing an unpinned grenade into his fox hole. Heck even IF he survived Normandy. He'd find a way to scew up Operation Market Garden.
yep
Sink commanded in a very different time so it seems like the punishments were not very severe. Would Winters have been permanently reassigned as mess officer if the NCOs had done nothing?
That would have made for an interesting story.
Had the Court Marshal actually gone ahead, Sobel would have been humiliated in front of the battalion commander and the whole company when it became clear that his charge against Winters was erroneous. Sink would have likely already been aware that there were grumblings inside Easy about Sobel, so letting Sobel reassume command after such an incident wouldn't have gone down well. So Sink would have probably transferred Sobel and Winters would have been reinstated.
Sink surely wanted the Sobel issue to go away without any stink landing on him. A Court Martial would have revealed a systemic ignorance of the Sobel issue at the regimental level. So Sink didn't really address the leadership issue. He just hid the problem via transfers and made the Court Martial go away. So he chose career preservation over direct leadership.
I don't think Sink had any choice but to bust the two top NCO's down and move them to another platoon. Letting them stay would have signaled such behavior was acceptable, which would have been unconducive to good order and discipline. Transferring Sobel was also smart, because it was clear the men had major issues with his leadership given the dramatic step they took and leaving him in command in general was bad, but even more so on the eve of such a major operation, he could ill afford to have such a critical element of that operation in potential disarray and not following the CO's commands.
Was Winters actually court martialed on suc a petty charge and, if so, what was the result? Was he convicted oor acquitted and, if convicted, what was his sentence?
There was no court-martial. Sobel was transferred and Sink squashed it. Meehan to CO of Easy and Winters back to CO of 1st platoon.
Sink actions in this matter were just, and for the best for the regiment.
To make an omelet and all.
Sobel needed to go, and thanks to these brave men, he went, that some of them later died outside the BoB, is bitter to be sure. But the regiment, and E co were better off for their, and Sink's actions.
Isn't Sobel second left, not right?
Yes, I have corrected that. Thanks.
You know what yes square him away or move him somewhere safe but I don't think he did it on purpose I think he tried his best
The NCO Corps is the military’s most valuable asset. If they put their foot down and tell the CO the truth about an officer under his command? Why would you punish them? In fact it blows my mind that someone like Sobel could slip through the cracks. Thank God he was an egotistical jerk. If he had been a nice guy? How many people would have died under his command? Probably too many…. And no amount of court martial or demotions would ever bring em back.
They did the right thing and Sink did the wrong thing. All those men respected the chain of command. But how do you address incompetence in a rank above you? You tell the truth and get punished anyhow? Ok. At least the conscience is clear….
Why was there no one that went to the aid of this brave soldier when he needed help the most, right before he tried to commit suicide. Why did the VA let him die malnourished at VA facility? He may have been a hole, but he was our a hole. It sounds to me like the good outweigh bad. It appears to me that society let him die on the vine. We, as a society, hold him more than that for the service he provided to this country.
There are veterans rotting away in homes as we speak. Governments around the world should be ashamed.
It sounds to me that Col. Sink did not have a good understanding of the officers under his command, which may be a dereliction of duty. Command is desired by many but it comes with great responsibility.
I've always wondered why only two sergeants got demoted. Is that because they were seen as the ring leaders of the mutiny?
They couldn’t afford to lose every sergeant in the company.
@@ghostviggen Sure, but why demote any of them in that case? Why those two in particular while the others got off seemingly scot free?
Yes they were the instigators although they all agreed on the resignation. There is a lot more to the story than anyone knows. A lot of 'deals' done I think. Harris might have just drawn the short straw.
@@WorldWarTruth Thanks for the info.
I think Sobel was trying his best to be hard on the men for their own good, and he didn't want to be their friends. Obviously Winters was better at it, but maybe without Sobel Easy doesn't outperform the rest of the regiment. Maybe that change in ranking has other implications for who is flying in which plane and where they land, and hence their survival.
It's probably pointless to imagine outcomes that vary based a changes of circumstances that lead to a particular result for a given man in the war. So many immeasurable permutations of how the butterfly flaps it's wings to create a random tornado in one life and not the other.
Yes he just had too much of a flawed personality to command a company.
@@WorldWarTruth I think personalities are more complicated than that but I agree he was no field commander.
There is a hidden but very profound flaw in the question of whether or not Sink's decision ultimately cost men their lives. That flaw being that it shifts the cause and responsibility away from the actual culprits - the Germans. This is no nitpicky twisting of points, this is the crux of the issue. The Germans killed those men, not Sink. It would not have mattered what decision he made because ultimately, all those men should have never been there in the first place, if not for the murderous rampage of Hitler and his willing subjects. 65 Million dead. An entire continent in ruins. The answer for anyone in a position of responsibility where your decisions have consequences, is to do the right and just thing and let the chips fall where they may. EVERY decision has unforeseen consequences, so the important thing is that the decision you make now - based on facts, logic, evidence, and reason - can stand to fair scrutiny later. If Sink was flawed, it was in only seeing the excellent results Sobel appeared to achieve, rather than being aware of Sobel's regime of command. If he'd been more familiar of his subordinates, then the mutiny of the sergeants might not have been necessary.
The Col did what he ahd to do in the circumstances. Examples had to be made. This is the Army and this was war.
This is ultimately the fault of Colonel Sink. Good leaders do not have mutinies.
The man was incompetent any way you look at it. How was this not recognized before he was allowed to get in this position? Read the books--D-DAY by Stephen Ambrose and "No Bended Knee". This ineptitude is displayed at all levels of the military. Probably thousands lost their lives due to this. I saw it personally during my time in the Air force. In competence was rampant up and down the chain. I think it no different today.
Had Sink been a good commanding officer, he would have been aware of how big a twit Sobel was, and the level of abuse he was heaping on his men, and would have done something about it. In modern times this would definitely have been a violation of Article 134 at a minimum.
I dont know much about the ins and outs of the army. I just always assumed, like business, that the higher ups leave everything to those below them (unless there is a serious problem) The main problem was Easy Company was the best performing company in the battalion. It would be like sacking your best sales manager because his KPI's were set too high. Training and combat were two different things of course and yes, Sink should have known if Sobel was going to make it in the field. Perhaps he would have done away with him prior to the jump anyway.
Why did you run this through a filter? The faces of the actors from the series have some weird uncanny valley vibes now.
Because most of the original photos are so blurry you can hardly see them. I don't do it if I don't have too.
Anyone else think the real Ranney looks like Tom Cruise?
There’s some good research, but also some sloppiness.
He keeps referring to the pathfinder, returning back to easy Company, “likely with winters help.“ How so? Where is the evidence that winters played a role? Or if there’s no evidence, what kind of inference are you making?
Winters was very good friends with Mike Ranney. Colonel Sink and Strayer wouldn't have given a rats about Ranney. Lieutenant Meehan was from a different Battalion. Of course Winters got him back into Easy.
It's pronounced "Toe-Coa" my buddy. Greetings from Georgia!
Sorry about that, I'm deaf and I'm not always sure how its pronounced to write it the correct way.
@@WorldWarTruth Wow, you have an amazing voice, good stories to tell also.
Did he do the right thing? I'm not about to play monday morning quarterback on a guy who had decisions like that to make.
In the picture Winters vs Sobel at 00:45, Sobel looks more Japanese than he does Jewish.
He kind of has that look doesn't he.
I don’t think you needed to repeat so much of part 1 in part 2
A lot of people only watch the 2nd or 3rd parts so I do that to keep them watching.
@@WorldWarTruth that must be why part 2 and 3 popped up in my feed but I had to go search for part 1.
Maybe if you just started from where you left off others would do the same, thus increasing part 1 views.
It was really good content btw, I can’t understand why someone would start watching at the halfway point sorry, but thanks for the work you put in 👍🏻
@@justwayne4785 Thanks mate. I have only been doing videos for a little while so learning on the go. I do try to keep the waffle out.
It has been my experience that most officers are terrible at land navigation that is why they rely on their nco's
Toccoa is pronounced Tuh-CO-uh.
Apologies. I'm deaf so I need to get help on how to write it correctly for the speech prompt but my partner does not know about some words either.
My mother graduated high school there while Camp Toccoa was still in business.
Sobel was lucky he got transferred back to the states he would have gotten Fragged no doubt!!!!!
Sobel stayed with the 506th until the end of the war. And he fought on D-day, taking out a machine gun. Maybe you should have paid more attention to the video.
He was reassigned within the battalion to a training slot for non parachutists to train them to jump. He jumped with the battalion in another position where he was not in charge of "line" troops.
@@charlesgantz5865 or maybe I just don't really care???
Sink did not do the right thing. He should have interviewed every man in the unit and investigated then come to decisions.
Part 2 should be part 2. Not a repeat of part 1. Thumbs down for this.
Thanks for watching anyway.
Wow. Please work on your pronunciation.
Im deaf. Its the best I can do with speech text.
As a leader the worst thing to me you can do is second guess or question decisions of leadership. Especially when life is lost, or rank is lost. I think things happened the way they were supposed to in this situation. If a question is asked about Harris and Ranny, I would ask why did Winters, help or get Ranny back to Easy and Not Harris?
sobel ? I can't write what I'm thinking .. the man was just plain horrible