Guitar Power Amp Shootout - Tube, Solid State, or VST?
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- Today in Plague Scythe Studios, we find out just how different my collection of guitar amp heads and power amps sound when played through the same setup!
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This video covers a lot of ground, so here are some much-needed timestamps:
00:00 - Experiment Introduction
00:45 - Experiment Setup
03:00 - Blind Power Amp Shootout #1
04:22 - Introduction to Contestants #1
09:51 - Reveal to Shootout #1
11:13 - Results Discussion #1
17:40 - Blind Power Amp Shootout #2
18:35 - Introduction to Contestants #2
19:44 - Reveal to Shootout #2
20:39 - Results Discussion #2
24:28 - EQ Match Shootout
25:16 - Conclusion 
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I really like the more "scientific" and pragmatic side of your channel. No bullshit. You're a breath of fresh air in the stale domain of guitar sounds :D
I'll grab some popcorn
We are Fractally in the same position, give or take 3-4 thousand miles. Popcorn noted.
Man, that was some deep, deep, DEEP guitar nerdery. Lol. Absolutely love it!! Great job as always, Ryan.
Thank you, Ryan!!
This i think is by far the most interesting and detailed video on the channel. The topic was tough, the methodology and logic of this research were straight and full, the results - unique and to the point. Congrats!
Also it helped me a lot in considering options!
Holy science! I think about these things all the time and it's amazing you've done a video on this
this is a great, great post. and your caveat around 4:50 is *super* key.
man, i am loving this channel, the blunt, no nonsense, myth-busting stuff is crazy important
i personally feel that output transformers and power transformers are the amp components that nobody talks about but should, and tubes are way over-discussed... which is definitely a "hot take"!
Really great video! Very interesting results!
Said #5 was the best, wasn't disappointed, and guessed #2 as the MG because you were obviously gonna use that for the solid state power amp. It's worth mentioning you're giving me Solo Recto GAS.
Recent subscriber. Really appreciate what you’re doing. Very informative and fun. Thanks man!
Bro!!!! Thank you for this research! This has been so helpful for me!
oh man this was fun. My preference was 1-5-2-3-4
Thank you for your videos. Always very informative and interesting.
there's a lot of great info here. and your findings are accurate, whether you can explain the science or not. my live setup uses an ISP stealth class A/B power amp. my pod models a power amp. between them, the sound is favorable. only one person has ever called me out on being entirely solid state, and it's because my rig went down and i borrowed a regular tube amp. of course it was different. it wasn't my cab.
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redwirez impulses come with "impedance" IR's to model the power amp curve. optional, in case your plugin amp already has one (like TSE x50 does). ownhammer is a muddy mess unless you apply that curve they describe. JST impulses (or trackmix studio in the case of JST vol 1) come with the power amp sound "baked in" and give you the option of either the 5150 power amp or a marshall one. awfully considerate of them. i feel like certain ones, maybe Catharsis? just outright say they put it through a 5150.
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all of this clearly illustrates your point that the power amp sound, be it solid state, tube, or a plugin, is paramount. the ignite TPA is an incredible plugin. and it helps to figure out what sounds tube types make. this is also really clear in plugins in Revalver and Bias. yea, you could potentially EQ out the difference, but the timbre of the note is going to be different. and different is good. spice racks come with more than salt.
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you've done some great research here and i'm glad it's out there for people to find. well done, man.
Nice! The Recto is most definitely the winner Imo (it might also have to do that it's just made to match with that particular preamp). I'm actually surprised at how little I liked the Mark sound in comparison, seeing as it's one of my dream amps and they're both 6L6's
Ignite amps is amazing.
Wow, what a video, thank you!
Man....your content is amazing. I'm jealous.
Awesome man!
Great Video! I went from Laney All-Tube to Solid State Power. So much easier to carry! Keep up the great work!
IRT SLS?
Nice vid! Obliterating, once again, your topic. Going deep into the subject matter. Well done!
Voted for #1. Will report back once I finish the vid. Edit - you could say you used the same computer VST to record all of them and just slightly change the mic position of the clips and I would believe you. I've seen mic positioning easily makeup that kind of a difference in sound alone.
This was an amazing glimpse into a widely overlooked component of guitar tone. I am currently debating on getting my Classic 60/60 fixed up or getting an SS power amp. For cost, weight, maintenance and convenience, I'm leaning toward the SS one. Great video, as always. I appreciate your work very much.
Thanks for posting, I been saying this for years, if you’re not playing loud you’re not going to hear the power tubes character if you’re not pushing them. I use SS power amps due to my living situation, but yes having a poweramp is crucial.
I liked the rectifier the most, then the ceriatone. I didn’t like the sound of that 1000w rack mount thing at all (that makes sense though because as you said, that’s not really what it’s for)
That Marshall MG really surprised me and served well as a great example in this test.
Really really good chanel.
You could use the amp in and speaker out on a DI to record the power amp outputs, and you can see what the frequency spectrum is doing. Should reveal something interesting.
Something you won't notice much in a guitar cab is the benefits of a class D amp, but you might notice that in a bass cab. I changed from a cheapo power amp to a cheapo class D power amp on my studio subwooder, and when I measured the frequency response of my monitoring I suddenly had an abundance of 20Hz and lower to where I had to turn it down in my sub EQ. My compensation EQ was pushing my old power amp to be flat, and then when I changed to class D it was so efficiebt that I didn't need to push those frequencies anymore.
Awesome vid. Maybe do a short one with the Line6 POD thru the Gargoyle poweramp and the Baby Bomb ?
i loved #5. i figured it would be solid state because it sounded super clean, almost like there was zero affect on the preamp tone. guess i was wrong!
I have run amp sims through the effects loop of my Peavey Bandit and a Marshall MG before I picked up my dual rectifier and JCM 900. It sounds much better than you would think. I could definitely see Mooer preamp pedals and a beat-up Peavey Bandit being a really sweet bar gig rig.
Very well done, I'm also surprised. At the first blind shootout I chose #1 and #5. But I couldn't really tell why or guess what was what. In a band/mix would be zero effect on the audience.
#1 the most balanced and natural sounding.
#2 darker
#3 darker yet
#4 my favorite. Like the mid bump, but still fairly balanced.
#5 fizzy
#7 sounded like #4
By the way I don't know how exactly you did the test but take some things into account.
The power amp starts coloring too much when you push (obviously) but it's there (again obviously) even in lower volumes.
HOWEVER (and it's a big one and why modelling can't win for me), what is and isn't there in lower/higher volumes and changes all the time is negative feedback. That's current, that goes back to the power amp and is produced by the magnet of the speaker moving. It's in the opposite direction, 180 degrees and cancels some ...content in the power amp. What you want it to NOT be cancelled you adjust via pressence and ressonance. So you affect it as well. Then there is also bias shift in the power tubes etc.
Now negative feedback is effective only when there is useable gain (headroom). If you are (lucky) enough to dime, this stops working. It's when people say "oh the pressence doesn't really do anything". In the opposite notion, if it's too little (very low volumes because, the speaker doesn't move that much) again it won't work as effectively.
So there are "states" that most power amps will sound very close. And you got them a bit here.
The mark IV could also be operated in modern mode, it's the same with the rectifier with pull master out. It takes the negative feedback out so you get more bass and treble (they don't get cancelled) and the amplifier becomes less controlled (more raw and in your face).
Another thing to take into account is the effect on the power transformer and it's that when you operate the system that is the preamp and power amp in low to mid volumes they take a specific toll on the power transformer but after that, it's all power amp baby. If you take equivalent of what the transformer sees as needs, it's preamp, preamp and some mild effect from the power amp and then the power amp needs its full electrical boost so to speak. It dominates. In high volumes a lot of amps tend to sound the same, because they may have similar power amps.
If you don't push or record in very high volumes you may find the preamp being the more dominant of course. Here the power amp difference was certainly NOT what I was expecting.
The mesa rectifier 50 watt is notorious for having a very small output transformer as well.
That (again) limits headroom in bass and treble when you push. It makes the amp "sweeter". It's not "bad" to have but it certainly limits punch. It's one of the most obvious differences between soldano and mesa (because, ahem they ripped the preamp math lol). The choke (properties) does a difference as well.
In jamming to low volumes, I drove my 4x12 with either my soldano (6L6 and tonestack after loop), my brunetti (EL34, straight in effects return) and my...orange crush mini (3 watt piece of shit lol class D). You'd be surprised, the orange sounded identical with the soldano for starters.
Of course when I turn up...BOOM BABY!
Great video. I see a Pod xt on your desk? i guess a video is coming?
You bet! I have the whole family of PODs ready to review.
P.S. a lot of old rack preamps have enough output to push a speaker cab. ADA mp-1 is one of them. Engl e530 has a 3 watt amp built in.
I use plugins with my solid state MG50dfx, and it's sounds pretty good. Well, it sounds good at high volumes, as I do. Because of the speaker of the combo. But, that's my budget way of changing my amp into other amps.
I liked 2 and 5 best out of the bunch
I still use my DigiTech 2120 with the Ignite TPA and impulses.
#3 and #5 sound the cleanest, So Im watching this video because i'm thinking of using my Line 6 Helix thru my Blackstar Tube amp , im playing thru a Boss Katana return now but maybe sound better thru the Blackstar, I didnt like the Marshall sound in your demo and Blackstar sounds alot like Marshall, in your opinoin is this something worth trying ?
Greet Vdeo
Thanks
Does the TPA1 beheave like the real thing? Can I get old school Plexi style power amp distoriton with the or its just an EQ like to help get the general feeling of a power amp?
How about different preamps and the same power amp(tube and solid state)?
Surprised the MG didn’t sound worse than the Mark IV.
Seeing that very example (for me), gives some legitimacy to the orange pedal baby, given it’s class a/b.
Well at least for the hi gain/run a modeler application.
The vast majority of those sounds were damn usable. Like, if I had to pick which one I like more, I could do it. But which is better? Man, that's a distinction that doesn't exist.
Except straight into an IR with no power amp model. That needs help. Fortunately, that help is easy!
5. Raw clear and in your face. Everything else sounds like a blanket on a cab.
In theory What are the biggest factors and what part of the circuit makes a Tube amp real tight and articulate? Also same question as to what makes a Tube amp silent when driven with gain ? Thank you
The awkard moment where the first four sound pretty much the same.
I was listening on iPad speakers and noticed a difference between all of them...
Anyone know if IR's factor in "overloading" or "collapsing" a speaker? I guess I'm just looking for a not so efficient speaker IR like you would get from a Fender Champ or similar. If so how do I find and tweak this? Great thinking, analysis, and video Plague man
suppose that is determined by how the IR's were made. i've never read a manual that explicitly said "this was modeled with speaker breakup in mind". but i guess it explains why 50 different IR libraries are making the mesa OS and even with the mics in identical positions, power amps, room tones, and even volume could make them different. ideally, you record guitars at a volume where the power amp sounds good, the speakers are breaking up as desired, and the room is cooperating. but who knows what conditions they were recorded in. it sure would be cool if someone made a library with different levels of speaker distortion. particularly on an ampeg 8x10. by the time you get an svt head cooking it's deafeningly loud. i don't think the libraries take that into account.
xsonicassassinx exactly great points. Defining what is clipping from a preamp vs power section vs a speaker is a tough job I imagine keen to learn more about it
Best poweramps clips(for me): 1 - 5 - 8; worst: 3 - 4.
But you can get another type of sounds with the TPA... interesting.
Hi there.Im going to hot rod my old jcm800 lead series in cali mod.What i want to ask you is what are clliping diodes in "bypass"mode in your new plexy monster?Cali do not have them in bypass.Funny thing, return of fx loop cant be used.It makes noise,but when used send and return, its ok...Cheers
1N4749A are the "always on" diodes. They're really subtle, as is apparently the case with Zeners - they remind me of the gritty 1N4148s in a Super OD.
@@PlagueScytheStudios Thanks !
For shootout 1: 1-4 sounded very similar to me, 5 sounded brighter so I'm guessing its the Recto. I'm amazed because you had 6l6 and el34 didn't hear much of an appreciable difference.
i think the lack of difference in the tube type has got a lot to do with the fact that it's a recto. they just sound like recto's no matter WHAT kind of tubes you put in them. some amps have a character that shine through all of it. TSE x50 has an el34 option. gotta tell you, it's minimal. other amps change in the mids and low end. nothing you couldn't almost entirely EQ out. using the ignite TPA you can flip between them and you will feel a slight change each time. but recto is recto. clearly this test proves that haha
Question: How different is the Matrix power amp in comparison to a PA system type power amp?
I've never scientifically compared them like this, but my limited experience says the Matrix is less "spongey" and more reactive with speaker cabinets when used with a Fractal product. It wouldn't be the end of the world to substitute it with a regular PA power amp, but the playing experience with the Matrix is superb, so much so I can see tube amp enthusiasts being pacified with one versus a regular solid state amp.
In your opinion, Thrasher or Gargoyle?
FiVe.
scoop or gtho.
10:28 10:35
The Mesa poweramp sounded best to me.
Mesa Boogie Strategy 500.
Matrix surprisingly the worst. Disappointing with a preamp only. But if its supposed to be used with a tube poweramp sim, its OK then, i guess
8 and 6 sound the same
This video is SO CLOSE to being correct.
It's not that you just need "a poweramp" in your sound, it's that you need "an impedance curve" somewhere in your sound.
Tube amps inherently have this impedance curve built into their output when you plug them into a speaker cab. Solid state amps do not have this characteristic. Instead, they're truly flat.
Just using a tube amp will apply an impedance curve so if you use a tube amp you'll be fine there. If you're using a solid state poweramp, just apply a solid state EQ curve somewhere in the chain (like the video showed in the tone match section) and you'll be 95% there.
I hate messy boogers!!! They are good if you want to head bang. I love classic vintage tones.
listen here bud i am a subscriber and i just want tot be honest about something,if your going to make a video like this for the average joe and the general public i strongly recommend that you dont use a bass guitar as a 6 string guitar?the majority of guitar players play a 6 string guitar using standard tuning and if your gonna do a demo like this please use a 6 string so that we the majority can benefit us and your channel.i know it wasent a fucking bass guitar but it sure did sound like one and as far as im concerned it sounded muddy and flubby and sounded like shit.how do you expect to improve your channel and get subscribers and thumbs up when this is what we get? it would have been nice if you would have gave us a heads up about what kind of guitar you were going to be using before you got started.i hate the sound of baritone guitars and most 7 strings and 8 strings are out of the question.if you would have given this info from the start i would have exited the video and moved onto something else.please dont be offended by my opinion and remarks because i really do like your channel but this was a waste of my time and i got nothing out of it.
This video has just shy of a 99% like ratio, making it perhaps the absolute worst example of my content to be pushing your argument. Obviously others got something out of it, and I can't make literally every person happy. It's fine if you're not into ERG tones, and I'm sorry for neglecting to introduce the instrument as I usually do, but the data I present here still applies to any high gain guitar scenario. It's not like the premise magically falls apart just because I'm using thicker strings.
I'll tell you how I expect to improve my channel. I'm going to keep making content I'm passionate about, producing even more in depth analysis like this video, and hopefully learn a thing or two about music production along the way. If you don't like that "this is what you get," I seriously advise to unsub, because you're only going to see more of it.
@@PlagueScytheStudios I'm out