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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- What's inside a professional digital audio mixer?
Dave opens a Yamaha DME32 Digital Mixing Engine with multi-channel 24bit audio ADC and DAC and custom DSP processing.
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TRS, XLR, and DB25 are basically interchangeable as balanced line-level signal connectors. It's simply a matter of how much physical space you have available to work with. Don't confuse balanced TRS with stereo TRS though. XLR is always balanced. DB25 just bunches the 3 wires per channel (hot, cold, gnd) into a tiny connector to save space (8 channels). You can get DB25->TRS or ->XLR adapters in case you needed to custom route those outputs to separate devices rather than just tunneling them all to another single device with a DB25 input.
Actually this device is not meant to be on the road. It's meant to be in a fixed location e.g. in hotel conference rooms, stadiums or community centers. The technician sets the device up for many applications and saves these applications in scenes so the janitor or house tech guy can quickly recall the correct settings for the desired setup. On the road you still use a common audio mixing desk. Both - analog and digital - are still present.
Yo dave, sound engineer from scotland here.
these boxes are mosly used for situations where you are doing install audio setups and you want to pre-program a bunch of stuff and then leave it for, how is best to say this.... n00bs to operate. it can only really be programmed by a pc and is then left to recall presets for different operational situations.
some audio pros still use them as interfacing systems with modern mix consoles but these aren't particularly commonplace anymore and will only be brought out in the field for specific rare situations.
these days digital consoles are processing 196 channels of analog i/o @192khz 24bit and consist of a control surface (a dumb remote controller that looks like your traditional mixer desk with faders and rotary controls and buttons althought somewhat fancier, often with touch screens and fancy LED lit stuff everywhere) and a processing core (a big box in a rack case that has all the audio and other interface ins and outs on it.
these days two engineers can work together on one box to do the whole show, so you can have a single processing core and two control surfaces all connected via massively long redundant pairs of cat5e cables and have one engineer controlling front of house mix (crowd mix) and audio feeds for press or recording or whatever while another engineer is doing monitor mix (stage mix, in-ear monitors etc.) effectively on the same processing gear from the same set of audio inputs.
it's pretty fascinating stuff.
hefonthefjords cadac cdc eight ;)
Soundcraft Vi6.
Venue S6L.
Yamaha PM10.
So much toys in such small boxes.
Cadac were better known for the J console.
Thanks, at last audio stuff teardown. more audio gear plz.
Jetset Willy I might have another big one coming up... just a few issues with collection...
EEVblog Yeah ! Wolfson 192khz DAC is a damn beast.ty a ton again
Jetset Willy Anyone near Dave got a nice professional power amplifier like Lab Gruppen or Powersoft for a teardown? Would also be interesting to compare to an old-skool heavyweight Class AB amp
rarelycomments I have a McIntosh 2505 and I'm telling you there is not much in amplifiers for teardown and all are the same. Mixers, Multiband EQ Compressors, Synthesizers,Tape machines(Nagra ,Studer) are more interesting.
Jetset Willy Class AB amps are boring I agree, but you should see inside some of the latest DSP-controlled high power Class D amps for PA. Serious engineering!
Just for those who wonders…, PCMCIA stands for People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms.
Koppa Dasao Ahahah well played
The reason you see scene is because it was designed for theater performances, where you literally have scenes. You preprogram the thing for the scene number and then just push the next scene button.
Sam Petrocelli Ah, that explains it, thanks!
Sam Petrocelli that's real cool
Sam Petrocelli Stage lighting mixers are made the exact same way: program the lights necessary for each scene, then just hit "recall" during the performance. Greatly reduces the chance for operator error during live performance, and allows intricate lighting (or audio, in this case) changes that one or two people couldn't physically pull off instantly.
*****
i see those pins in the back(the green array) that look like open collector outputs and also inputs, could they be also used for that?
***** when I was in highschool we had pretty big yearly productions and I had the pleasure of working with all high end lighting and audio equipment. This stuff is really cool and a lot of fun to work with. It's like industrial automation, but with audio and lighting.
12:39 - Probably preventing ground loop issues by connecting at one single point on the input board.
Also, if you have trouble reading the numbers on microchips, get yourself a green LED torch and put your camera into monochrome (B/W) record mode. It should make it as clear as possible. Green has the lowest noise in CMOS sensors as well as using single wavelength to get the sharpest reflection from the chip. You can also try red and blue LED torches to see if that makes any difference to the contrast, depending on the ink used on the chips. Green is very good, though. I use my homemade torch all the time for reading chips.
Love the highend audio, medical and I guess anything industrial build quality teardowns! I've learned a lot of useful concepts that help me at home and work from your vids. Cheers Dave!
The successor to the DME32, the DME24N, is approximately $10,000 US. Just to give you an idea of the price range of this equipment. A full-sized mixer, which is essentially this, with a fancy front panel with faders and knobs and a big screen to control it all, could cost anywhere from $17,000 to $50,000. This is some REALLY high-end gear. Awesome to see inside of it.
Dave, you're an amazing guy. Every time I see one of your videos I get this great impulse of motivation to learn more about electronics.
This thing is absolutely chock ton full of effects. Compressors, delays, reverbs, eq, god knows what else can be applied to each channel. No wonder it's stuffed to the rafters with DSPs. Great teardown as always :-D
5:50 when Dave starts talking about what he expects to find inside as he unscrews the lid... It's like a toddler at christmas eager to find out what's in the presents.
TRS-Jacks are used because of the lacking space für XLR but provide the same signals. ;) D25 is for studio integration or installations where you have to connect multiple analog channels to patchbays or interfaces...
Yes trs can be balanced as well. Even down to TT size for patchbays n such.
Stefan Hächler I would imagine that they use TRS Line-level inputs because they expect you to use an external microphone preamplifer - if you're using microphones.
Yeah probably and then the board would have preamps and phantom power. Kinda of an I/o bus and interface . I'd like to see it paired up in action with a setup. Might have been at the tail end of DAT's.
Jordan garrett ipullstuffapart Yes, if there is a mic-preamp it's standard to have XLR also in low-end gear. The solution with TRS for line-level is mostly a space or cost decision. Coming from that field i know a lot of gear with XLR-Linelevel I/O and you will normally wire all the signals with XLR-Cables and just use a small adapter to TRS in the end. For instance all my higher-end preamps / compressors do only provide XLR ins / outs...
Stefan Hächler As long one got good quality in TRS jacks it might not be a problem, because this mixer seems to be built to stay plugged. I would prefer XLR, too (or maybe some Tuchel?), but as you said, too much space taken up. And not necessary for fixed setup. The only Problem might be, that you can't separate shielding and signal-ground.
Und eine Vermutung auf Grund des Namens, darf man auch deutsch sprechen? :D
To specify about the TRS and D-25 connectors versus XLR, in a lot of mixers, it's standard to use TRS for line-level signal (usually around .775 V RMS). In this particular case, I'd imagine they'd have analog pre-amplifiers in the signal chain before this unit to gain up mic-level signals, and this unit would only mix the line-level signals.
The "scenes" are basically presets of volume controls. You can set all your faders (linear pots) to a certain mix, save it as a "scene," and recall that scene whenever you'd like. This is good in concert environments to switch out several musicians on the fly, or in recording studios to save the settings for a band that plans to come back on a later day.
SH 2 Processors were used in the Sega Saturn Game Console as far as I know,
Dave, thanks for tearing down some audio gear! Usually SMD resistors show some non linearities in audio applications, remember we are using 24bit ADCs with more than 110dB dynamic range, that's probably why the analog resistors are all TH. Newer, biggish SMD resistors are better but small ones are still a problem for distortion in pro audio applications.
Also I think audio is more similar to measurement gear, hierarchical grounding more than star, you treat your grounds as signal reference, one for each signal following it. Of course you could use a plane for shielding but the actual path will be very controlled and following the signal, including decoupling caps and all.
About the connectors, the classic printer DB25 connector was introduced by Tascam IIRC, is standard audio connection, 8 channels. The TRS are also standard for line level and in both cases are much smaller than XLR of course and that's one of the reasons why they use those. DB25 is much cheaper and faster to connect than 8 independent XLRs, on the stage timing is all.
While rack mount systems like these have their applications in professional audio, we tend to use desks just like the analog consoles, except they are almost completely digital, so we still have our faders, but everything else is all done with a large screen, and the most commonly used system on broadway for theaters is the digico SD-8 costing $250K US. For portable rigs Yamaha’s most popular digital systems are the QL and CL series, the QL costing about $16K, and the CL costing about $30K
yamaha make beautiful equipment. especially the older stuff. i have a old yamaha cr820 audio amplifier.
The use of TRS (rather than XLR) is most likely due to two reasons.
One would be space: 8 XLR jacks probably just wouldn't fit on a single board, and it's a simple straight-through adapter to go from TRS to XLR. Adapters are readily available, but one can be soldered up in a minute or two.
Second would just be useability. Aside from microphones, XLR connectors aren't used for much else; TRS is far more common when balanced connectors are called for (plus you can always use a TRS jack for an unbalanced 1/4" plug too, which are ubiquitous in the audio industry.) Typically those inputs would be run either to a cable bundle/snake or, more likely, run to a front-facing rack-mounted patchbay so the engineer doesn't have to keep crawling around to the back of the rack to plug stuff in. I'd bet money there was a TRS patch bay that lived in the rack right below this mixer.
***** It depends on the business. In my field (broadcasting) the analog equipment uses only XLRs or multipin to XLR breakout. Of course we have lots of bantam TRS patch bays. I can't remember the last time I had to use a 1/4 TRS except for headphones.
Chris W Yeah, it's really dependent on the end use. In typical recording studios, 1/4" TRS are very common, but I know a lot of broadcasting (especially out on location) tends to go XLR. I usually look at it from a recording/music studio angle (as well as being a guitar player), so I use 1/4" for pretty much everything except microphones (or AES/EBU, but that's not really the same thing aside from the physical jack used.)
My audio engineering class did have a couple "field" DAT machines and I remember they mostly used XLR connectors, but I personally never used them for anything. There was no _way_ the teacher was going to let a $2000 portable DAT out of the building with a few high school students!
My audio related endeavors are relegated mostly to home these days, and with all of the integration and shrinkage of audio gear, it's pretty easy to get away with the bare minimum of gear. It's been cool to watch how much computer-based audio equipment as shrunk down over the past 20 years! What used to take up two or three 10-bay racks and a ridiculously expensive computer can now be done with most average PC's, a 1U rack interface and some software plugins and still sound great!
The DME32 was not meant for stage use, but for installed sound (mainly conference centers and such). The software does not realy support live mixing, but more for static mixes (microphones in a conference center).
Interesting to see the RS232/434 connectors. I usually associate those with custom AV installations that use a control system like a Crestron rig. This unit seems to be specifically targeted at theatre and cinema where a pre programmed scene is uploaded to change the settings during a performance as opposed to a live music installation where a sound engineer will change stuff on the fly. Interesting!
TRS is often used to connect mixing equipment together at short lengths, especially through switchboards (like in the ancient human-powered telephone networks). XLRs are more common for connecting actual devices (e.g microphones) at larger lengths.
A thing of well designed beauty !
Thanks Dave!
YSS910-S is basically a pre-amplifier with effect :
Features: (1)Full Digital Signal Processing; (2)8 Channel Preamp; (3)Digital Effects; (4)Compressor; (5)Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Rotary Speaker, Tremolo; (6)Digital Delay, Tape Echo; (7)Spring Reverb, Hall Reverb, Plate Reverb; (8)Tap Tempo Function (Delay Time); (9)Speaker Simulator (16 Types); (10)External Controller Function (EXP Pedal/MIDI):8 Controllers/Parameters; (11)Wah Function; (12)Tuner Function (Chromatic, Auto).
these units are mostly used in rackbased static setups, not much roaduse.
I have installed multiple units in all kinds of office buildings for presentationsystems and other stationary audio sollutions.
One of the other uses is fire broadcast systems.
The usb in the frontpanel is for service, the com on the back for installation use to controle , lets say, a video switcher
I'm a semi-professional audio engineer, and for me this was so amazing and interesting, thank you vermy much, Dave! :) Hope in a few years I will be able to design audio equipment of this quality :D
Hi Dave,
Long time viewer, first time commenter,
Really enjoyed the teardown, I live out your way and have a few esoteric digital audio conferencing pieces of kit you may want to tear down:
• Biamp audiaflex
• Yamaha 03D
• AMX enova dvx-2100-SP
All work, and I would happily put them back together, but I do have an AMX Enova that needs a power supply repair, would happily pay to have it back up and running.
But if you're too busy, no worries at all.
Thanks again for all the great videos!
Adro.
Yamaha still put out digital and analog audio cards in bot PC I & PCIE formats, a general yamaha chipps and processers setup sound card in the 8 channel range are still among the best.
Ther cold be several reasons for the TRS connectors on the back:
-the 8ch modules came off something else and were installed for extra I/O OR just installed to add extra items to your tear down.
-bad design -> the early digital mixers had a horrible software experience as far as operation was concerned and the I/O did get odd at times.
-space -> the xlr sockets take up a lot of space and production companies don't mid buying 40+ TRS to XLR converter cables or snake.
-they were using a digital snake to handle the FOH/monitor sends/stage inputs and the I/O on the console is for routing to Fx units and mic receivers in near by racks.
People do run software mixers with PC hardware + firewire audio interfaces + software like Ableton Live but they are not that reliable and latency is often a concern. + they tend to break if you install software updates. You also need to have a stock pile of spare parts in case something goes wrong or dies. On the up side software mixers are more flexible hardware wise and have a cheaper upgrade path + you if an interface dies you still have the other ones to use but if a digital console dies your stuffed.
At the end of the day the cost needed for software + hardware for a software mixer you might as well go with a dedicated digital console. software mixers were more popular when the lower end digital consoles were $30 000+ but seeing as the lower end one are mostly less than $5 000 now its priced out the software mixers.
On slot 1 and 2 u still have balanced input change only the connector from XLR to Stereo Jack, but if u look the corner bottom right u have the pinhead of each jack: hot cold and shield\ground of each one. identical is on XLR connectors only different shape to fit em in less space.
The output has that connector couse probably was paired to an analog recorder or with the same module with version analog input u can pair the unit to a more recent Yamaha mixer :) ( and connecting 1 wire with 2 connectors compared to 16 wires 32 connectors save a lot of time :D)
They use TRS-outlets because they use up less space on the plates...that is usually the only reason why you would use them..(and maybe if all your equipment only has 6.3mm jacks, but that isnt seen that often anymore)
This kind of mixer was my wet dream when I was doing the live A/V for my school.
Now Teardown an Akai MPC ! ;) Best is Renaissance :D
Loved this teardown. Thanks, Dave!
Nice one Dave, Enjoyed that one.
I think the capacitors in the PSU are floating above the pcb on purpose,raising them gives better thermal performance.
Dave, I love how your comments on bodges are biased depending on the product manufacturer / origin!
The DME 32 isn't made for live and touring applications. It's a studio/musical/theatre kind of mixer. Pretty old of course😃 I don't like working with those computer based digital mixers I definitely prefer desks(digital and analog) the handling is much much better. But Yamaha did a nice job on design.
Hi Dave, as for those ground / chassis connections I design audio equipment and use 0805 resistor footprint in several parts of the gear to connect the ground at one specific point... for which I use a simple zero ohm 0805 resistor for this! :-) This is very useful at the development stages no doubt! Take care, great tear down, keep them up!
Also when learning how to run audio for professional events, most people learn on and analog desk, because they are cheaper and they are extremely basic, then you get to learn digital which can be very confusing, because the controls of an analog console are essentially the same across all brands, however digital interfaces change drastically across all brands which makes it very difficult to figure out how to use consoles from all brands
TRS connectors a pretty standard for something like this same for the db25 connector to break out into xlrs
"Antialias filter" is what you wanted to say on those filters mate! usually for 96kHz the filter will roll off 3dB at double that ~ 192kHz...
Kris TheTrader Err, yes, brain freeze.
Kris TheTrader Wouldn't they roll off below the clock rate?
Chris W Hi Chris, OK up to a few years ago aliasing was something I wasn't familiar with as I did mostly analogue stuff... But the picture became very clear after getting my hands dirty with ADCs in the audio domain... Anyway, best thing to do is to actually read about it, instead of me explaining the whole thing, some good read here: What is Aliasing? theproaudiofiles.com/digital-audio-aliasing-explained/ Hope this helps!
Kris TheTrader I know about aliasing. So does the guy who wrote the article you referenced.
"CD audio has a sampling rate of 44.1 KHz which means that up to 22.05 KHz of audio is safe to be sampled. In this case it’s likely that a filter would be present to start rolling off all audio from 20 KHz onward, cutting everything off by 22 KHz"
Dave thank you so much! Amazing stuff.
Dave re-mounted the slots inverted :D
I actually get to see them nearly everyday in the Studio :) But they are only of use for Digital to Digital Final Mixdowns or to get good Recordings off of Synthesizers. But my Mixing Engineer Friend (15 Years of Exp. + Master of Arts Diploma) swears on Digital and Analog combined. Tube Amplifiers combined with a Revox Studer Reel to Reel @15ips and an Analog Desk hooked to a Digital Recorder still sounds better than just Pure Digital.
Very nice! Now get your hands on some Neve gear to teardown. Analog at its finest.
Oh YES Audio Gear!
Dave if you ever read this please go to 22:13 mins you say they did not want to re do the pcb.
but did you ever got to the idea that this is done for a deeper reason?
i know yahama too well, this is done becouse someone found this nececery!
this is more work and costly then do it on the pcb.
and i can see from the looks this is done for a reason and it's not to cut cost as this would be even more cost this is done for a reason not to be lazy!
greets
TRS jacks are common to save space over XLR
Fantastic stuff, I'd love it if you tore down Warm Audio, ART, API, Neve gear
love the back to the future reference!
Well, I wouldn't call meeting a consumer level price point "stupid" :-P
Maybe it's something to do with the standard audio electronic best practice of SPG (Single Point Ground)... I think you should maybe get a audio electronic engineer on the next audio equip teardown.
Great video, these pieces of equipment are incredible. I thought DSPs where still software. Like they have special instructions for processing dsp operations, and are basically microprocessors made specially for dsp applications.
Dave could you do a tutorial on adc and dac..Your tutorials are great ....I like the way yamaha not only engineer the boards but also there own chips as well
I got a DME32 with 12in and 20out :D , amazing for PA
Yes, It's common in highend audio gear to use tht resistors, because of lower noise.
The band Aha liked yamaha equipment on stage because they could tape over the "yam" part so only the "aha" bit showed... :)
Damn that's a nice bit of kit.
OMG!!! Dave is using a non-manual screwdriver!!!!! A FIRST!
Hi Dave, just an idea here, since there is a lot of people debating if analog is better than digital when it comes to high end professional audio equipment why not making a side by side comparation from an objective perspective and measuring actual values of inputs vs outputs.
Again, just an idea.
Hey! Don't just throw it in the backroom after the teardown! The three modules in the nack are worth quite a bit of money. They are called mini-YGDAI cards. They fit the DM1000, DM2000 and other contemporary Yamaha consoles. Especially the analog outs go for quite some bit of cash. Who again gave you this??
People actually using gear like this appreciate if folks take the time to list on eBay. Many high-end systems like this are retired only for lack of accessories!
The MY8 DA card alone still is 640 Euros new and they will stay valuable for at least another 10 years. Good audio gear doesn't really get old.
"The Duck's Guts." I think I might love this guy.
You put it back together differently than you took it apart.
I've watched this crazy stuff to the end... And i have to say more plz! :)
Would be interesting to see inside different types of sound module 😊
i must say by marking on board they are right side up.
Checked and it was sold around 2001 for about 4000 Euro.
Awesome stuff!
Those gold caps on the I/O boards look like Nichicon Fine Gold's. Dave would enjoy the audio Tom Foolery in those data sheets.
DoItYourselfMusician I don't dare look!
Or the controversy over using electrolytics in the audio path, instead of poly like a real man would.
+DoItYourselfMusician It's Nippon Chemicon ARX Series, now discontinued, replace with ASH series. Still "Audio Grade" capacitor like Fine Gold. I thought Dave will make fun with those datasheet like OP275, but no, I'm disappointed...
Very very nice teardown item. The DB25 connectors are quite common and their purpose is to save space. They usually carry 8 channels of differential audio signals with a ground each, so 24 pins are used. They are used with these so called "snake cables" www.hitsquad.com/news/images/hardware/snakecables.jpg
Please do more audio stuff!!
Like the cheap interfaces, like Presonus, etc... We want to know how good or bad are they...
3:50 or so...I think you mean "digital to analog (converter) output." It says right there "ANALOG OUTPUT" :-)
"All the electrons are going to fall out" lol
Marvelous look at the beast though.
This is...art
LOL, If it hadnt said Yamaha on the front and been really expensive Dave wouldnt have been so positive about all those bodging and hand soldering :)
But you know how it is with audio equipment. If it is expensive enough you will hear the difference :)
At 26:00 about the old through hole parts. I wonder if the design of the board is much older than the rest of the unit. Maybe they created a new digital design which was backwards compatible with the older analog plug in cards. Why redesign the plug in boards if they still work?
cemx86 Could very well be.
Were those 99 large chip date codes ? Are you now going to improve on perfection on your back round music ? And now we may want to listen to more of your great RUclips videos ! Maybe time to "Plug it In". Thank you for another great video !
Eyes UP and lights down, tjl Sent by Win7Pro64 w/ADSL
Cool teardown, but a bit dissapointing to see so many green wires on that DSP board.
(27:19) Conformal coating? Or was it cooked flux from wave soldering?
Also, that's a hell of a solder blob bridging IC505 (31:36)
Massive solder blob on IC505 @ 31:52. That doesn't seem right?... Dodgy reapir?
I think sanyo sold out there capacitor business a while back, they are sold as " Suncon " now.
Big blob of soldier on the ADC board? Oopsy or bodge?
OMG! the GW scope is upside down!
Emergency light in case you accidentally plug in your mixtape :D thumbs up
Dave the screw driver you had to use the scew driver.Video quality is slipping Dave I'm not sure anymore.;~)
Does it matter which ports you plug the interface cards into as I noticed that you had swapped two of them at the end of the video?
Could you do some PCB designing videos ? maybe do some diy pcb making videos too?
More pro audio videos please.
You have to appreciate a proper bodge!
Alyx BioHaz None of that nasty chloroprene glue which turns conductive as it ages!
No hot glue that chips off over time, proper plastic shielded mod wire, no loose wires, proper large blobs and i bet its even solid core!
i would also bet that if you took apart another unit it would look exactly the same!
EEVblog Dave -- You sound like you know more than I would have thought about the audio world. Talking about HP / LP Filters and such. Just wondering: Have you ever made a synthesizer?
If so could you do a video of it? Or maybe buy a synth kit and make it! lol sorry just a big synth fan. Really cool video!!
Sean Hornibrook Not really an audio person, but I spent more than a decade in underwater acoustics DC-2KHz stuff with distortion levels that would make the audiophiles drool.
Sean Hornibrook You need to subscribe to synthDIY mailing list ;)
Have you ever done a tear down in a sonar?
Hold on what's with the blob of solder over the legs of that IC at 31:41
What do you actually do with this sort of thing after a teardown? I'd be so keen to buy stuff like this, for salvaging parts. :)
As recording engineer that's picked up electronics as a hobby in the last year, videos like this incredible to me. Total electronics porn for me, and I love it.
Yet another video that the picture plays slower than the audio so lip sync is well out. What is causing this on my machine? graphics card is an NVIDIA GeForce 9600 GT,
4 gig of ram and core 2 quad Q9450 cpu running at 2.67 GHz
So, what'd you do with the add on cards?....
EEVblog holy shit Dave it's a fucking bobby dazzler!
WOW! a SH-2! There was one in the sega Saturn.
draggonhedd Quite old school. Probably inherited from previous designs.
EEVblog Was it on the Sega Genesis as well?
Pixel No, Megadrive/genesis is Motarola 68K.
thedjnk I was talking about the sound chipset. And really the Motarola 68K oh my NAB isn't that the same processor found in the old Macs at the time! I seriously did not know that! I bet if the cartridges had more memory and the ports can support a mouse and a key bored, The Sega Genesis can run the old Mac OS right? Cool!
I just learned something NEW! YAY MEE!
No. Merely having a processor does not preclude OS compatibility. They are still completely different architectures of system. 68k processor was used in a ton of shit at the time. Amigas, Macs, game consoles, embedded devices, etc etc etc.
How much for the addon IO MY-*** cards! Need some!
Coole timemachine on left side 😂😀