my family does a lot of real estate and have multiple rental properties. i prefer putting the money in and forgetting about it. the hassle factor of real estate and risks are just unappealing to me.
Depends on 2 things. 1) Fear of the stock market and 2) How much do you want to physically work? I am a long term stock investor, and I have an iron stomach for downturns...in fact, it is a great buying opportunity. I do absolutely nothing physically, just invest in a boring ETF at USA Market Level at low cost. My landlord has 30 properties. He is busy day and night. This is a real business, he employs a handyman 100% of the time, and has numerous relationships with other service providers. He has to deal with renters problems personally. In my 5 years here, both heat pumps, water heater, 2 huge garage spring coils, kitchen garbage disposal, washer/dryer/refrigerator problems. We have also had 3 serious water pipe leaks, and 2 more leaks from drain systems. The handyman has been here so many times, that I know him personally. IMO, this house for my landlord must be a financial and physical disaster...but he shoulders on. He is a great landlord.
Your friend is not being smart about the landlord business. If he used his time finding more rentals, and let a management firm take care of the maintenance and collecting rent, he’d be less stressed and richer.
Both!! I love a 50/50 split of Diversified Stock Index Funds ( I like Vanguard - No stock picking - I'm not Buffet! ) and Real Estate. The real estate can be active ownership ( that is a business and you need to learn it ) or totally passive ( Example : LP in the multi family syndication ). This is a great set up that does well in all environments. Cash and Bonds will always payout less than inflation so they are investments that are guaranteed losers. Have some cash for emergencies but no more than a year of expenses. As you mentioned stocks are very liquid. Real Estate is not. 50/50 balance on these assets is ideal. Thank you Mr. Mathis for breaking this down.
I have both, over time I have come to appreciate the dividend stocks far more. The older I get the more I appreciate the fact that my dividend stocks are far more passive.
I think investors should always put their cash to work, especially In 2024, we'll start to see more market diversification. I'm hoping to invest about $350k of my savings in stocks against next year. Hope to make millions in 2024
A big factor in answering this question is a person's lifestyle. It's not that some people don't like real estate. It's just that they live very mobile and/or carefree lifestyles, and they simply do not want to deal with owning real estate and being a landlord.
A lot of these choices are dependent on interest rates. The last couple of years with high interest rates real estate was King. Now with long term interest rates lower then stock look better and real estate is easing. As for REITs only warehousing and storage is still decent.
What is the benefit of doing both if they each provide similar returns? If it’s diversification for risk, they both have risk so what’s the point? Having a 50/50 split won’t provide you any protection against overall risk. If the stock market ever does poorly, real estate will too. They are not inversely related.
Yes but, If your Stocks are down their is a good chance your Real Estate Rentals have the same Rent! If you can live on that even better! That is diversification for sure! Everything has Risk! It’s just different Risk for everything!
I’ve been all in on RE and have been wanting to start a Dividend portfolio. Your points on stock secured loans and selling covered calls have convinced me to take a hard break from RE and focus 100% on building and “renting out” my dividend portfolio. Really great content! Keep up the good work!
@@qingyuzeng5229my house was 400k in 2003 and is 1.5m now, which isn't far behind S&P500. And factor in rental income. Another advantage not mentioned often is that I didn't put in 400k all at once. I was leveraging a low interest bank loan (try borrowing money from a bank to invest in stock, no bank would give you money without a collateral like a house). Not to mention the tax benefits. There are many advantages of real estate. This is why most people will tell you to invest in both.
Stocks, will never ever ask you for repairs, missed rent, new water heaters, clogged drains, new roofs, new hvac system or a missed battery on a smoke detector! SCHD! is the way to go! I'm seriously considering selling both properties and putting it all in into my current portfolio of 5k shares of SCHD! Real Estate is good if you have deep pockets!
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Rental is a LOT more hassle than shares. Also for a small investor not only is it not less liquid its much more binary. You cant sell say 10% of one of your two houses. Yes you can own REITs but i may be wrong but arent most REITs commercial? Very different markets.
The difference in real estate is the ability to leverage your investment 5x with a mortgage at 20% down. You do a good job explaining the difference between the cash flow aspect, but the appreciation of real estate makes it much more valuable over time. Also, you can borrow against that leveraged value as well so you get 5x the borrowing capacity.
My portfolio is low PE ,dividend stocks at a 7.3% portfolio yield. Rent is great but you are super concentrating payment risk vs dividends, plus less chance of negative cash flow (new roof, blown water heater etc).
I sold my rental property as I just got burnt out. Some tenants were good, some not so good. With new squatters rights its something you have to constantly stay on top of if your rental is vacant in between tenants. I knew nothing about being a landlord when I tried. I knew nothing about stocks until I read and then watched dozens of videos. Started with $500 on Robinhood. Did well with my selection, added more, then more. I am not where I need to be yet but I've learned from Toby as well as others. Scared money don't make money. The only way to be where you want to be in 10 years is to start. Compound interest!
I agree with everything except the ending! I think if you're on a tight budget it's better to START with RE. If you have a big budget START with Stocks. Why? Because of leverage. Like with your example, if you're just starting out with $100 you buy 1 share of, say, MMM. That 1 share pays a little over $1 every 3 months. 20 years you have $240. Yay. You need millions of dollars IN HAND to see any progress with dividend stocks. Technically it's the same with RE, except you can LEVERAGE the purchase, so you can (in theory, not so easy in practice) start with millions of dollars of the banks money. Long story short, you need 100% to invest in the stock market, whereas you only need 20% to invest in RE. If you want 1 million in stocks, you need 1 million dollars. (technically you can borrow it, but the rate of return won't keep pace with the interest rate) If you want a 1 million dollar house you only need $200k! Leverage in RE is both it's greatest advantage & greatest weakness! More RE investors sink because of leverage than any other factor, so be careful!
This is good holistic advice. Thank you. Applicable in other territories as well, but the tax systems abroad might be less favorable than in the US. Here in Norway, dividends are taxed 37%. Capital is a bad name, and if you have a lot of it the state turns you into a tax refugee (To Swiss, Italy, etc). Commies hate capitalists.
Meta, Tesla, Amazon, nvidia etc none pay dividends…. But the amount of options premium you can collect selling cash secured puts and covered calls way outway the dividends say Coke, Home Depot, Proctor Gamble Pay…. You can almost collect 1 percent a week in premium with little risk if properly structured Depends your age, risk tolerance, etc. but I sure love me some THETA!
Great video! I agree that both stocks and real estate have their merits as investment options. However, I have a question about the potential price volatility of the stock market. While stocks can generate income through dividends, they are also susceptible to market crashes and sudden price drops. Could you please share your thoughts on how the stock market's price volatility impacts long-term investments and what measures investors can take to mitigate the risks associated with market crashes? Thank you!
Warren buffet once said..for passive investors,simply doing nothing but continuing to buy without looking at the trajectory of the market is the best strategy,over the long run our portfolio will be up..trying to mitigate risks will actually end up costing a lot because timing the market is impossible and no one has a crystal ball to consistently pick when to sell and when to buy or move from stocks to bonds, money market and vice versa
Thank you Peter. Investing is good dividend stocks is half the battle when trying to smooth out volatility as companies that pay our earnings are less volatile. But the best advice really is never being forced to sell. Markets always go up and down in the short-term, but the trajectory is upward in the long-term.
When the stock market crashes, consider it on sale and buy more. It always goes up more than down, something like 25-30% it goes down and 70-75% it goes up. Otherwise, don’t budge. Don’t make long term decisions on temporary circumstances.
The same can be said of home prices, they don’t always go straight up. They go down when there’s an economic recession and eventually go back up higher than the previous mark. That’s why the best advice is never sell.
I have considered real estate, but if I can double my money every 3 to 7 years in stocks: this is my choice. No carpets to replace or plugged toilets. Currently taking advantage of the lower tax rates to do the ROTH conversion for the next several years.
Highly appreciated your honest opinion specially investing in real estate and also buying stocks. Investing or buying properties needs tons of MONEY. As far as I am concerned I strictly invest in STOCKMARKET. My most favourite investment where I put money and make substantial amount of money which are Canadian BLUE CHIP stocks as well as ETF, and S&P 500 index fund honestly I am making money and very happy about it.
I look at the question which investment is better and I think it means long term. So IMO I see Real Estate as the better bet: 1 Over the long term Real Estate is going to go up in 1.Value, 2. It will bring in income rent. 3. Rent will surely go UP (stock maybe 4. Real Estate has better $.right offs from taxes. 5. Your physical asset Real Estate, will depreciate (funny your property loses value in the eyes of the IRS, while STILL generating you more earnings.
Wonderful video. You can also make a lot of money building in real estate. You can easily double your money. But you’d need some experience with contractors and have a sense of what a good layout of a house or building should look like. As for rental properties, small apartments in countries in eastern Europe are great. Very low montly expenses and zero inheritance tax (if you want to give something to your children without the hassle). Land can make you super rich. My father bought land in Lebanon for a dollar per meter squared. He developed the land with roads and electricity; and divided up the land into smaller plots, and sold each plot for 40$ per meter (but after 15 years had passed) He’d always joke that it was like selling pieces of cake.
I live on a low income and invest 20% of it every week in stocks, reits and hard money lending. I hope to grow my investment values for a few years which might then allow me to finally get a small multifamily to rent out.
Excellent insightful video Toby thank you . my 2 cents : Dividend paying companies tend to grow slower if they do at all since earned capital is not reinvested in full .. also , dividends are taxable on a personal level ( I don't mean to teach the teacher .. just making the point .. ) Stocks are fine and what you see is what you get i.e. their face value . yes they are liquid but don't generate liquidity , and don't build EQUITY in the background . I own a California C-Corp . my company owns commercial properties in California ( NOT office space ) ALL rented out zero vacancy in the last 12 years. I benefit from all kinds of deductibles , add value to my properties by regular improvements ( and deduct their cost ) , build equity and generate CASHFLOW !! AND that magical 39 year long yearly "depreciation" If I compare myself to my big shot friends who are Stocks fans , over the last 12 years I have saved myself TONS of money on Xanax , blood pressure meds , hair transplant, sleeping pills, a divorce, and manicure, never bit my nails .. and frankly I look better 😊 Bliss to all thank you Toby for your sound presentation
Counterpoint: Every one of my friends who's invested in rental real estate has tenant horror stories. Squatters who won't pay the rent and then trash the place when they finally get evicted. Turning the place into a house of drugs and criminality. Hoarders who ruin the property through their disgusting lifestyle. Sure these are just anecdotes, but 100% of my personal anecdotes are that owning real estate comes with massive personal stress. By contrast, I've invested in stocks and have found it largely unstressful because I don't care about the daily fluctuations, I just keep my mind on the long-term. Moral of the story: There is no silver bullet; one person's experience does not reflect another's.
@@tholdme85 not every venture is for everyone, and every head is wired different. any investor in any investment has to meet certain criteria before any rosy picture is painted. it takes talent, extensive experience, diligence, consistency and good business sense. with income generating properties, it all starts with location, location, location. then come the attributes of the landlord, including proper screening ie tenant's fico score, personal history, references, etc. if landlord is financially vulnerable and grabs the first applicant with leniency and exceptions, then they are asking for big trouble. in my case, we are talking about commercial real estate, where security deposit amount and eviction laws are different compared to those for residential real estate and to the advantage of the landlord. this is true in most if not all States. you need be good with numbers, be able to see the bigger, the much bigger, picture and see the different possible scenarios down the long haul and have the necessary access to cushion or emergency funds if need arises, and it WILL arise .. there is a secret i will share with you ( in the name of adding value to Toby's page here ) , my asking rent is always about 20% lower than the current market rate . why ? because when i have NO vacancy and my tenant pays their rent on the first of each month without any delay, i am way ahead of my competitor who often has an empty space waiting for the tenant who will pay him that higher rent they are asking for .. when you ask for top rent dollar, your tenant is always tempted or even planning to default and move out .. because those few months they were occupying your property as tenant, they were actively looking for a cheaper space to move into . with rental property, owner has many tools at their disposal and in their control that they can and should utilize to make a potentially significant contribution to the execution and success of the venture unlike in the stock market where all you can take is one decision, with no tools at hand, and can take one of two possible actions at a time : buy or sell , and where you find yourself in a world of uncontrollable and unpredictable factors, where your attributes contribute little to nil to the execution and success of the investment . bliss to all
This thread is excellent. So I've spent the last 3 months educating myself on RE to move from passive to active RE investing. The benefits of rental investing is ACTL: Appreciation, cash flow, taxes, and lowering of the principal. Stocks appreciate too . Stocks may have cash flow butt cash flow means the coming isn't re investing in growth which hurts appreciation. Stocks have tax advantages but not sure if there are as broad number of ways to get them in taxes. (There are entire books about "tax free wealth" for RE investing. ) Stocks don't directly allow you to build both equity and Cath flow by paying your loan principal over time. But I agree that REAL estate (RE) is more controllable and stocks owning is passive (unless you're an activist billionaire). So if you like to bet on your own competence and aren't too busy, then RE is for you. Tenants and toilets is real but you can educate yourself to counter this risks like smart section 8 screening and property management. If you need liquidity, then so stocks . I'm a busy person but have invested time in real estate education because I saw that active investors can strategically build multi million dollar net worth over a decade if competent and prayerful.
The tax benefits of rental properties Are unbelievable. If you were smart and keep each one of your rental properties and an individual llc You can basically write off almost everything required to maintain the property. The problem with stocks is that you may make 8% ovef the course or ten years. But you can also have a few down years where you're investment isn't producing any income.
Damn! Toby is the bomb 💣!! I hope he is an adjunct professor somewhere. He is an amazing teacher 👨🏫 he should be a professor at a junior college teaching investing and personal finance ❤️🇺🇸👍🏼🙌🏽👏💪🏽🔥
The share price of stocks is adjusted for any dividends paid, so it's a wash in terms of gains. In terms of taxes, non-dividend stocks are better. When you sell stocks, you can sell at least some and only pay LT cap gains tax. With dividends, you pay the higher regular income tax.
I am new to the stock market/crypto. Every stock that I bought so far, I was out of luck because I bought them when they were expensive. I feel I missed out on all the stock opportunities so far for the tech stocks. I believe having 175K yearly income would be a good investment so I want to plug all my savings into the stock market. I know this sounds a bit dull but I would like to know if I should learn investing or let somebody else (more capable like a FA) do it for me? Please share your thoughts. I am kind of tired of searching for a good stock to buy and losing all the good opportunities.
Hi Shelly! Thank you for your comment. If you’re looking to level up that retirement account and start generating passive income, the Infinity Investing Workshop is just for you! Register today: inf.link/iiwyt
If you are currently renting and have less than 100k net worth, start with real estate. The advantage for real estate is that it gives you the power of leverage. You can buy a 300k home with putting 3.5% down (10k). If that house appreciates 4.5% annually, you have 373k in equity after five years, plus 20k of principal you paid down, plus 10k from your initial down payment. By simply living in that house, you now have a net worth of 103k (10x your initial investment of 10k) in just 5 years. Plus, if you sell the house, it is tax free. On the contrary, that same 10k invested in the stock market would only become 16k in five years. This is why real estate is so powerful. I love stocks too but it doesn't compare to real estate for the average person.
Get your point. RE is great unless you need a new roof or money to live:-) Pluses and minuses to both, but needing liquidity from your home can lead to unforeseen consequences (see: 2008-2010)
I think you forgot to consider the cost of owning (mortgage + insurance + maintenance), which substantially eats away your equity gain if you want to compare to stock investing.
I started investing in stocks just before COVID and since then there’s been 3 or 4 major crashes of negative 10% or more. Some were terrifying crashes where 30% or more was wiped out in a few days. If you invest 1 million dollars are you prepared to see that wiped out to 500k dollars and not panic. If you can take this kind of thing in your stride then I’d say stocks are a simpler option.
When you make a few bucks it makes sense to invest in both. Let’s not get it twisted that everyone with high net worth has a silent partner, which is taxes. I love the cost segregation tax benefits of real estate. It pays to invest and take the tax benefits. Dividend play is a must too. Great video Toby. Short and precise!
Investors can leverage their fund for real estates, not for stocks. You can put down 200k for a million dollar investment property, but you can only invest 200k in stocks. But stocks are less stressful and doesn't call you when the roof is leaking and the bathroom is stuck.
Couldn't agree more that you should own rental real estate and dividend paying stocks. Personally I like to buy large cap tech stocks that pay a dividend like msft, appl, and nvda. Growing dividends are great, but the capital appreciation from growth stocks is awesome. Now if you are actively retired then don't buy growth dividend buy dividend kings, aristos etc.
The issue with rentals (and I own and have watched family with rental properties) people tend to buy into the “bargain” properties. buildings, houses, in bad areas, poorly kept, and or deferred maint and they wonder why they struggle. your better tenants aren’t renting in junk areas with junk properties and junk schools. they buy the wrong properties and wonder why they can’t get a return, and why the property needs 10k in work every year. Agree stick to stocks first till the right rental prop enters the scenario, then roll a part of that rental income back into the dividend stocks monthly. after two years of growth on the rental and stocks being fed look for another property. let one feed the other and back and forth… but know what you’re buying and make sure your tenant pool isn’t bad because of the property you’re buying are all wrong.
People always talk about the price of homes going up, even if inflation were 0, but like, houses can't just get infinitely expensive, people seem to have no foresight about it, like it's a blind spot for so many people.
I love real estate because all my investments are long term considerations; 15-20years. Create businesses to finance my short-term financial needs. Real estate is for when I decided I don’t want to do anything which I don’t think will happen; so I guess it is for generational wealth.
Thank you for sharing your insight! It's inspiring to hear about your long-term investment strategy and the importance of creating businesses for short-term financial needs.
Buying rentals is the same as buying stock. You can buy more quality and passive investments or buy more tedious ones. But properties generate fully disposable income if i take the 10% return from the s&p gain every single year like i do for my property, that stock isnt compunding since the seed figure remains the same, whilst my rents increase annually. The gap expands further, saying stocks is more liquid is a half truth depending on how you explain the secnario One thing that never changes is that for the vast majority of the time, you will generate far more wealth passively with property if you buy quality rather than quantity and the work is minimal and i can invest in stocks with the rental income. S&P with a 10% average return doesnt beat the same roi or more on property income and a similar return from its capital appreciation
REITs have people whose full-time job is managing the properties and growing the NAV, why would I ever try to manage property on my own for a similar return when I could invest in a REIT who pays out 90% of their net income as a dividend and is more diversified? Why wouldn't an ideal portfolio be Index ETFs and a REIT ETF, that portfolio would likely have an unbeatable alpha with a high return.
Great explanation! Sadly non-US people pay 30% tax on dividends which nobody mentions. So if I buy for example JEPI which gives me an average dividend of 7% p.a., 30% of the 7% go to US tax as a non-US person, and then leaves me with a much lower compounding rate than a US citizen. Hence for non-US people in my eyes it makes sense to speculate more on growth with a smaller dividend, such as the S&P 500. Past performance isn't a guarantee for future performance, but due to the tax implications I'd rather do that. Still need to look at money market funds and how those are taxed now that interest rates are up.
I was just telling someone last week why I chose stocks over estate . Cost of entry for stocks as low as 1.00 , my profits can be more than what house cost in less time . Yes there's more risk and yes I lost money but it all loss I can write off against my wins . Homes have to manage and repair
If stocks and real estate provide about equal returns, why wouldn’t you want the more liquid of the two which is obviously stocks. You also have a much lower barrier to entry. You can have liquid investments in real estate by investing in REITS or some other liquid real estate product without tying up your money in actual real estate. Oh and by the way, managing rental real estate also brings with it many many headaches you don’t have with stocks.
Dividends are treated as long term capital gains? So you're not taxed on the first $40k to $80k of gains? Real Estate definitely takes more capital even if it's OPM. The biggest difference is leverage imo. It'd be great to compare dollar for dollar flippers, wholesalers, creative financiers, buy & holders vs active traders, options, and long term index investors
Exactly the biggest difference is leverage. In real estate you have leverage in stocks you don't. You can buy a house by just putting down a fraction of the amount and loaning the rest.
Wow you just said the same thing about gold that i have been preaching. You can’t pay bills or groceries with gold. You can sell it to a dealer but you are taking a hit. Compared gold prices from today and 10yrs ago. Waste of money. But it’s good to have something. I have had money in a low growth stock since 2010 pays 8% dividend, up 129% since I bought it. The key here is diversify into everything. I also rent my other home. But I have a lot of money in growth stocks which then I use to buy properties
what about the management costs and time investment with real estate? that seems like a big downside to me. I do not want a call at 2 am from my renter that the toilet is not working.
Think the dollar will ever “deflate”? It’s purchasing power bounce back to what what is was or increase? How could it be set on a permanent downward trajectory.
Great info! I prefer the liquidity of stocks, I just cracked $900k in my dividend portfolio this last week. Almost 2 years now I started investing with the help of a finance manager who trades for me.
That's awesome & I agree with you, it's best to work with a pro. A friend of mine in California Sacramento who works with this smart lady Erlinia Jedraa Barrett referred me to her so I looked her up & reached out. With about a 250k capital, in a few months I've made over a million. She's amazing. Cheers🌹🥂
You can buy groceries in Idaho with Silver. Several states are in the process of making good and silver legal tender You can also convert gold and silver to fiat. The new currency in time will become the new World currency. I appreciate your lecture.
Great question, in order to assist you further, I highly recommend you attend our Free Tax & Asset Protection Workshop where our attorneys and specialists will answer all your questions live at the virtual event. aba.link/40bd86
my family does a lot of real estate and have multiple rental properties. i prefer putting the money in and forgetting about it. the hassle factor of real estate and risks are just unappealing to me.
The problem I have is understanding the systemic risk involved with a company's stock, stock's price movement, chart analysis can be complex too.
And thats how people get scammed😂😂
Lol maybe we should invest in bot AI stocks.
Totally agree. Did real estate for twenty years. Never again. I like liquidity and no headaches.
Well said
Im an investor in both as well but I’m surprised you didn’t discuss amount of work each takes. Stocks are hassle free compared to rental real estate.
Depends on 2 things. 1) Fear of the stock market and 2) How much do you want to physically work? I am a long term stock investor, and I have an iron stomach for downturns...in fact, it is a great buying opportunity. I do absolutely nothing physically, just invest in a boring ETF at USA Market Level at low cost. My landlord has 30 properties. He is busy day and night. This is a real business, he employs a handyman 100% of the time, and has numerous relationships with other service providers. He has to deal with renters problems personally. In my 5 years here, both heat pumps, water heater, 2 huge garage spring coils, kitchen garbage disposal, washer/dryer/refrigerator problems. We have also had 3 serious water pipe leaks, and 2 more leaks from drain systems. The handyman has been here so many times, that I know him personally. IMO, this house for my landlord must be a financial and physical disaster...but he shoulders on. He is a great landlord.
Which ETFs?
Your friend is not being smart about the landlord business. If he used his time finding more rentals, and let a management firm take care of the maintenance and collecting rent, he’d be less stressed and richer.
Both!! I love a 50/50 split of Diversified Stock Index Funds ( I like Vanguard - No stock picking - I'm not Buffet! ) and Real Estate. The real estate can be active ownership ( that is a business and you need to learn it ) or totally passive ( Example : LP in the multi family syndication ). This is a great set up that does well in all environments. Cash and Bonds will always payout less than inflation so they are investments that are guaranteed losers. Have some cash for emergencies but no more than a year of expenses. As you mentioned stocks are very liquid. Real Estate is not. 50/50 balance on these assets is ideal. Thank you Mr. Mathis for breaking this down.
That's a great perspective!
I have both, over time I have come to appreciate the dividend stocks far more. The older I get the more I appreciate the fact that my dividend stocks are far more passive.
agree 💯. i have rental properties, but my growth and dividend portfolio is the real winner.
I think investors should always put their cash to work, especially In 2024, we'll start to see more market diversification. I'm hoping to invest about $350k of my savings in stocks against next year. Hope to make millions in 2024
A big factor in answering this question is a person's lifestyle. It's not that some people don't like real estate. It's just that they live very mobile and/or carefree lifestyles, and they simply do not want to deal with owning real estate and being a landlord.
100%
A lot of these choices are dependent on interest rates. The last couple of years with high interest rates real estate was King. Now with long term interest rates lower then stock look better and real estate is easing. As for REITs only warehousing and storage is still decent.
Passive REIT owning is the best for me for Real Estate exposure and dividend paying stocks. I also use growth stocks to fuel new purchases.
I like to do both. I own several apartment buildings and twenty dividend paying companies.
Fully agree: Diversity!!!
Wife and I have Rental Houses, 401K-So, stocks and a little Commercial RE!
Diversify, Diversify, Diversify!!!
What is the benefit of doing both if they each provide similar returns? If it’s diversification for risk, they both have risk so what’s the point?
Having a 50/50 split won’t provide you any protection against overall risk. If the stock market ever does poorly, real estate will too. They are not inversely related.
Yes but, If your Stocks are down their is a good chance your Real Estate Rentals have the same Rent!
If you can live on that even better!
That is diversification for sure!
Everything has Risk! It’s just different Risk for everything!
@@duneme Stocks can be down and you still get same dividends.
@c5vette739 because I can take loans against the stocks to buy real estate and use the dividend from the stocks to pay off what I borrowed.
I’ve been all in on RE and have been wanting to start a Dividend portfolio. Your points on stock secured loans and selling covered calls have convinced me to take a hard break from RE and focus 100% on building and “renting out” my dividend portfolio. Really great content! Keep up the good work!
For last 20 years, S&P has been growing much better than real estate for a fact.
20 years I’d say no. But if you bought both in 2009, 14 years ago, you are absolutely correct. But both killed it with S&P better and a lot less work.
@@richard9827 S&P was less than 1000 in 2003. Now it is much above 4000 at 4X times!, no kidding!
@@qingyuzeng5229my house was 400k in 2003 and is 1.5m now, which isn't far behind S&P500. And factor in rental income.
Another advantage not mentioned often is that I didn't put in 400k all at once. I was leveraging a low interest bank loan (try borrowing money from a bank to invest in stock, no bank would give you money without a collateral like a house). Not to mention the tax benefits.
There are many advantages of real estate. This is why most people will tell you to invest in both.
I have been all in on real estate since the 70’s have been passive income since the 90’s so yeah RE gets my vote.
Stocks, will never ever ask you for repairs, missed rent, new water heaters, clogged drains, new roofs, new hvac system or a missed battery on a smoke detector! SCHD! is the way to go! I'm seriously considering selling both properties and putting it all in into my current portfolio of 5k shares of SCHD! Real Estate is good if you have deep pockets!
Would you like to learn more about stocks and real estate? Join Infinity Investing as a Basic Member and Unlock Your Free Training Today! inf.link/349463
Rental is a LOT more hassle than shares. Also for a small investor not only is it not less liquid its much more binary.
You cant sell say 10% of one of your two houses.
Yes you can own REITs but i may be wrong but arent most REITs commercial? Very different markets.
There are residential reits
The difference in real estate is the ability to leverage your investment 5x with a mortgage at 20% down. You do a good job explaining the difference between the cash flow aspect, but the appreciation of real estate makes it much more valuable over time. Also, you can borrow against that leveraged value as well so you get 5x the borrowing capacity.
Great point. You can leverage your stocks too:-) SBLOCs are awesome for investing in, your guessed it, RE.
You can, but interest is much higher when leveraging stocks. @@TobyMathis
@@TobyMathisHow can stocks be leveraged?
You can leverage against stocks and borrow against them. Just because you leverage against something does not mean you do not have to pay for it.
With rental properties someone else pays for it.
Real estate
Tenants, headaches with maintaining the property. List goes on. Thanksathis for differentiating the 2
Real estate appreciates more..and has higher returns and better tax advantages
The tax incentives of rental properties are fantastic.
Man! All your videos are outstanding! I’ve learned a lot… thanks
Awesome, thank you for watching!
@@TobyMathis Hi there - does your firm do corporate trustee work?
My portfolio is low PE ,dividend stocks at a 7.3% portfolio yield. Rent is great but you are super concentrating payment risk vs dividends, plus less chance of negative cash flow (new roof, blown water heater etc).
Thanks for sharing!
Impressive and clear explanation. Then what are the upsides of rental real-estate? comparing to Dividend paying stocks.
Higher returns , appreciation, tax advantages,useabalility,
@@jayc4715 Thanks. Any recommend of videos or books discussing the appreciate and tax advantage of real-estate?
Thanks Toby. This has been very insightful.
I sold my rental property as I just got burnt out. Some tenants were good, some not so good. With new squatters rights its something you have to constantly stay on top of if your rental is vacant in between tenants. I knew nothing about being a landlord when I tried. I knew nothing about stocks until I read and then watched dozens of videos. Started with $500 on Robinhood. Did well with my selection, added more, then more. I am not where I need to be yet but I've learned from Toby as well as others. Scared money don't make money. The only way to be where you want to be in 10 years is to start. Compound interest!
Thank you for sharing your story and the valuable lessons you've learned. It's inspiring!
Toby is right. Hold your real estate for the tax benefits. Hold stocks for the ease of liquidity 👍🏼🙏🏼🇺🇸❤️🙌🏽💪🏽👏
I agree with everything except the ending! I think if you're on a tight budget it's better to START with RE. If you have a big budget START with Stocks. Why? Because of leverage. Like with your example, if you're just starting out with $100 you buy 1 share of, say, MMM. That 1 share pays a little over $1 every 3 months. 20 years you have $240. Yay. You need millions of dollars IN HAND to see any progress with dividend stocks. Technically it's the same with RE, except you can LEVERAGE the purchase, so you can (in theory, not so easy in practice) start with millions of dollars of the banks money. Long story short, you need 100% to invest in the stock market, whereas you only need 20% to invest in RE. If you want 1 million in stocks, you need 1 million dollars. (technically you can borrow it, but the rate of return won't keep pace with the interest rate) If you want a 1 million dollar house you only need $200k! Leverage in RE is both it's greatest advantage & greatest weakness! More RE investors sink because of leverage than any other factor, so be careful!
Obviously, real estate is much less risky hence they allow more leverage. Find a stock that allows 4 to 1 leverage and I am all in.
This is good holistic advice. Thank you. Applicable in other territories as well, but the tax systems abroad might be less favorable than in the US. Here in Norway, dividends are taxed 37%. Capital is a bad name, and if you have a lot of it the state turns you into a tax refugee (To Swiss, Italy, etc). Commies hate capitalists.
Great video. Watched & liked!
Meta, Tesla, Amazon, nvidia etc none pay dividends….
But the amount of options premium you can collect selling cash secured puts and covered calls way outway the dividends say Coke, Home Depot, Proctor Gamble Pay….
You can almost collect 1 percent a week in premium with little risk if properly structured
Depends your age, risk tolerance, etc. but I sure love me some THETA!
Great video! I agree that both stocks and real estate have their merits as investment options. However, I have a question about the potential price volatility of the stock market. While stocks can generate income through dividends, they are also susceptible to market crashes and sudden price drops. Could you please share your thoughts on how the stock market's price volatility impacts long-term investments and what measures investors can take to mitigate the risks associated with market crashes? Thank you!
Warren buffet once said..for passive investors,simply doing nothing but continuing to buy without looking at the trajectory of the market is the best strategy,over the long run our portfolio will be up..trying to mitigate risks will actually end up costing a lot because timing the market is impossible and no one has a crystal ball to consistently pick when to sell and when to buy or move from stocks to bonds, money market and vice versa
Thank you Peter. Investing is good dividend stocks is half the battle when trying to smooth out volatility as companies that pay our earnings are less volatile. But the best advice really is never being forced to sell. Markets always go up and down in the short-term, but the trajectory is upward in the long-term.
When the stock market crashes, consider it on sale and buy more. It always goes up more than down, something like 25-30% it goes down and 70-75% it goes up. Otherwise, don’t budge. Don’t make long term decisions on temporary circumstances.
The same can be said of home prices, they don’t always go straight up. They go down when there’s an economic recession and eventually go back up higher than the previous mark. That’s why the best advice is never sell.
Such great info Toby.. the best ive seen.
Thank you so much it makes a huge difference learning all of this. :)
Great to hear! Thanks for watching!
I have considered real estate, but if I can double my money every 3 to 7 years in stocks: this is my choice. No carpets to replace or plugged toilets.
Currently taking advantage of the lower tax rates to do the ROTH conversion for the next several years.
Highly appreciated your honest opinion specially investing in real estate and also buying stocks. Investing or buying properties needs tons of MONEY. As far as I am concerned I strictly invest in STOCKMARKET. My most favourite investment where I put money and make substantial amount of money which are Canadian BLUE CHIP stocks as well as ETF, and S&P 500 index fund honestly I am making money and very happy about it.
I look at the question which investment is better and I think it means long term. So IMO I see Real Estate as the better bet: 1 Over the long term Real Estate is going to go up in 1.Value,
2. It will bring in income rent.
3. Rent will surely go UP (stock maybe
4. Real Estate has better $.right offs from taxes.
5. Your physical asset Real Estate, will depreciate (funny your property loses value in the eyes of the IRS, while STILL generating you more earnings.
Wonderful video. You can also make a lot of money building in real estate. You can easily double your money. But you’d need some experience with contractors and have a sense of what a good layout of a house or building should look like. As for rental properties, small apartments in countries in eastern Europe are great. Very low montly expenses and zero inheritance tax (if you want to give something to your children without the hassle). Land can make you super rich. My father bought land in Lebanon for a dollar per meter squared. He developed the land with roads and electricity; and divided up the land into smaller plots, and sold each plot for 40$ per meter (but after 15 years had passed) He’d always joke that it was like selling pieces of cake.
I live on a low income and invest 20% of it every week in stocks, reits and hard money lending. I hope to grow my investment values for a few years which might then allow me to finally get a small multifamily to rent out.
You can do it!
Excellent insightful video Toby thank you .
my 2 cents :
Dividend paying companies tend to grow slower if they do at all since earned capital is not reinvested in full ..
also , dividends are taxable on a personal level ( I don't mean to teach the teacher .. just making the point .. )
Stocks are fine and what you see is what you get i.e. their face value . yes they are liquid but don't generate liquidity , and don't build EQUITY in the background .
I own a California C-Corp . my company owns commercial properties in California ( NOT office space ) ALL rented out zero vacancy in the last 12 years.
I benefit from all kinds of deductibles , add value to my properties by regular improvements ( and deduct their cost ) , build equity and generate CASHFLOW !!
AND that magical 39 year long yearly "depreciation"
If I compare myself to my big shot friends who are Stocks fans , over the last 12 years I have saved myself TONS of money on Xanax , blood pressure meds , hair transplant, sleeping pills, a divorce, and manicure, never bit my nails .. and frankly I look better 😊
Bliss to all
thank you Toby for your sound presentation
This teacher is a student - love the comment.
@@TobyMathis 🙏 much appreciated
Counterpoint: Every one of my friends who's invested in rental real estate has tenant horror stories. Squatters who won't pay the rent and then trash the place when they finally get evicted. Turning the place into a house of drugs and criminality. Hoarders who ruin the property through their disgusting lifestyle. Sure these are just anecdotes, but 100% of my personal anecdotes are that owning real estate comes with massive personal stress. By contrast, I've invested in stocks and have found it largely unstressful because I don't care about the daily fluctuations, I just keep my mind on the long-term.
Moral of the story: There is no silver bullet; one person's experience does not reflect another's.
@@tholdme85
not every venture is for everyone, and every head is wired different.
any investor in any investment has to meet certain criteria before any rosy picture is painted.
it takes talent, extensive experience, diligence, consistency and good business sense.
with income generating properties, it all starts with location, location, location.
then come the attributes of the landlord, including proper screening ie tenant's fico score, personal history, references, etc.
if landlord is financially vulnerable and grabs the first applicant with leniency and exceptions, then they are asking for big trouble.
in my case, we are talking about commercial real estate, where security deposit amount and eviction laws are different compared to those for residential real estate and to the advantage of the landlord. this is true in most if not all States.
you need be good with numbers, be able to see the bigger, the much bigger, picture and see the different possible scenarios down the long haul and have the necessary access to cushion or emergency funds if need arises, and it WILL arise ..
there is a secret i will share with you ( in the name of adding value to Toby's page here ) , my asking rent is always about 20% lower than the current market rate . why ? because when i have NO vacancy and my tenant pays their rent on the first of each month without any delay, i am way ahead of my competitor who often has an empty space waiting for the tenant who will pay him that higher rent they are asking for ..
when you ask for top rent dollar, your tenant is always tempted or even planning to default and move out .. because those few months they were occupying your property as tenant, they were actively looking for a cheaper space to move into .
with rental property, owner has many tools at their disposal and in their control that they can and should utilize to make a potentially significant contribution to the execution and success of the venture unlike in the stock market where all you can take is one decision, with no tools at hand, and can take one of two possible actions at a time : buy or sell , and where you find yourself in a world of uncontrollable and unpredictable factors, where your attributes contribute little to nil to the execution and success of the investment .
bliss to all
This thread is excellent.
So I've spent the last 3 months educating myself on RE to move from passive to active RE investing.
The benefits of rental investing is ACTL: Appreciation, cash flow, taxes, and lowering of the principal.
Stocks appreciate too .
Stocks may have cash flow butt cash flow means the coming isn't re investing in growth which hurts appreciation.
Stocks have tax advantages but not sure if there are as broad number of ways to get them in taxes. (There are entire books about "tax free wealth" for RE investing. )
Stocks don't directly allow you to build both equity and Cath flow by paying your loan principal over time.
But I agree that REAL estate (RE) is more controllable and stocks owning is passive (unless you're an activist billionaire).
So if you like to bet on your own competence and aren't too busy, then RE is for you.
Tenants and toilets is real but you can educate yourself to counter this risks like smart section 8 screening and property management.
If you need liquidity, then so stocks . I'm a busy person but have invested time in real estate education because I saw that active investors can strategically build multi million dollar net worth over a decade if competent and prayerful.
Loved this one. And I live my Reits.
I just got my 1st real estate outside of NY home. It's a STR, definitely want to do LTR and stocks. Just found your channel
Great explanation!
The tax benefits of rental properties Are unbelievable. If you were smart and keep each one of your rental properties and an individual llc You can basically write off almost everything required to maintain the property. The problem with stocks is that you may make 8% ovef the course or ten years. But you can also have a few down years where you're investment isn't producing any income.
That was good. I’m gonna subscribe.
you can buy silver coin for $30 or more gold and silver appreciates in value in time which varies.
Silver is still less then is was in the 1980s so overall it is a horrible investment.
Excellent, balanced view of advantages and disadvantages. Thanks!
Very welcome! Thank you for watching!
Love you, man!
Love you back.
Gold out performed the S&P since 2000, so please make it make sense, real estate is great is you have a good location and decent renters
Damn! Toby is the bomb 💣!! I hope he is an adjunct professor somewhere. He is an amazing teacher 👨🏫 he should be a professor at a junior college teaching investing and personal finance ❤️🇺🇸👍🏼🙌🏽👏💪🏽🔥
The share price of stocks is adjusted for any dividends paid, so it's a wash in terms of gains.
In terms of taxes, non-dividend stocks are better. When you sell stocks, you can sell at least some and only pay LT cap gains tax. With dividends, you pay the higher regular income tax.
I am new to the stock market/crypto. Every stock that I bought so far, I was out of luck because I bought them when they were expensive. I feel I missed out on all the stock opportunities so far for the tech stocks. I believe having 175K yearly income would be a good investment so I want to plug all my savings into the stock market. I know this sounds a bit dull but I would like to know if I should learn investing or let somebody else (more capable like a FA) do it for me? Please share your thoughts. I am kind of tired of searching for a good stock to buy and losing all the good opportunities.
Hi Shelly! Thank you for your comment. If you’re looking to level up that retirement account and start generating passive income, the Infinity Investing Workshop is just for you! Register today: inf.link/iiwyt
Great information and it’s a reminder for me. Is there a way to make money with little or no money🧐. 📖😇
Great video and explanation !! Thanks for sharing…
I'm glad you found the video helpful!
If you are currently renting and have less than 100k net worth, start with real estate. The advantage for real estate is that it gives you the power of leverage. You can buy a 300k home with putting 3.5% down (10k). If that house appreciates 4.5% annually, you have 373k in equity after five years, plus 20k of principal you paid down, plus 10k from your initial down payment. By simply living in that house, you now have a net worth of 103k (10x your initial investment of 10k) in just 5 years. Plus, if you sell the house, it is tax free. On the contrary, that same 10k invested in the stock market would only become 16k in five years. This is why real estate is so powerful. I love stocks too but it doesn't compare to real estate for the average person.
Wow so true
Get your point. RE is great unless you need a new roof or money to live:-) Pluses and minuses to both, but needing liquidity from your home can lead to unforeseen consequences (see: 2008-2010)
I think you forgot to consider the cost of owning (mortgage + insurance + maintenance), which substantially eats away your equity gain if you want to compare to stock investing.
I started investing in stocks just before COVID and since then there’s been 3 or 4 major crashes of negative 10% or more. Some were terrifying crashes where 30% or more was wiped out in a few days. If you invest 1 million dollars are you prepared to see that wiped out to 500k dollars and not panic. If you can take this kind of thing in your stride then I’d say stocks are a simpler option.
I'm kicking myself - I've only just discovered your YT Channel. I'm engrossed, thank you.
Amazing breakdown!
Glad you liked it!
I agree with you
When you make a few bucks it makes sense to invest in both. Let’s not get it twisted that everyone with high net worth has a silent partner, which is taxes. I love the cost segregation tax benefits of real estate. It pays to invest and take the tax benefits. Dividend play is a must too. Great video Toby. Short and precise!
Thank you!
Investors can leverage their fund for real estates, not for stocks. You can put down 200k for a million dollar investment property, but you can only invest 200k in stocks. But stocks are less stressful and doesn't call you when the roof is leaking and the bathroom is stuck.
I like both, stocks are more tax efficient in the UK
Couldn't agree more that you should own rental real estate and dividend paying stocks. Personally I like to buy large cap tech stocks that pay a dividend like msft, appl, and nvda. Growing dividends are great, but the capital appreciation from growth stocks is awesome. Now if you are actively retired then don't buy growth dividend buy dividend kings, aristos etc.
Thanks for sharing!
The issue with rentals (and I own and have watched family with rental properties) people tend to buy into the “bargain” properties. buildings, houses, in bad areas, poorly kept, and or deferred maint and they wonder why they struggle. your better tenants aren’t renting in junk areas with junk properties and junk schools. they buy the wrong properties and wonder why they can’t get a return, and why the property needs 10k in work every year.
Agree stick to stocks first till the right rental prop enters the scenario, then roll a part of that rental income back into the dividend stocks monthly. after two years of growth on the rental and stocks being fed look for another property. let one feed the other and back and forth… but know what you’re buying and make sure your tenant pool isn’t bad because of the property you’re buying are all wrong.
This I a gem, thanks!
People always talk about the price of homes going up, even if inflation were 0, but like, houses can't just get infinitely expensive, people seem to have no foresight about it, like it's a blind spot for so many people.
I heard on the dividends, however I have NVDA which has growth much more than the S&P 500 and has no Dividend
Best of luck with your investing!
A very intelligent presentation!🎉
New SUBSCRIBER!!
I miss the sound of chalk on a blackboard. great vid
Thanks for the support!
I love real estate because all my investments are long term considerations; 15-20years. Create businesses to finance my short-term financial needs. Real estate is for when I decided I don’t want to do anything which I don’t think will happen; so I guess it is for generational wealth.
Thank you for sharing your insight! It's inspiring to hear about your long-term investment strategy and the importance of creating businesses for short-term financial needs.
Buying rentals is the same as buying stock. You can buy more quality and passive investments or buy more tedious ones. But properties generate fully disposable income if i take the 10% return from the s&p gain every single year like i do for my property, that stock isnt compunding since the seed figure remains the same, whilst my rents increase annually. The gap expands further, saying stocks is more liquid is a half truth depending on how you explain the secnario
One thing that never changes is that for the vast majority of the time, you will generate far more wealth passively with property if you buy quality rather than quantity and the work is minimal and i can invest in stocks with the rental income. S&P with a 10% average return doesnt beat the same roi or more on property income and a similar return from its capital appreciation
Wise Guy
My friend buy Gold
Why I buy Options/Futures contracts
Excellent information!
Glad it was helpful!
REITs have people whose full-time job is managing the properties and growing the NAV, why would I ever try to manage property on my own for a similar return when I could invest in a REIT who pays out 90% of their net income as a dividend and is more diversified? Why wouldn't an ideal portfolio be Index ETFs and a REIT ETF, that portfolio would likely have an unbeatable alpha with a high return.
Great explanation! Sadly non-US people pay 30% tax on dividends which nobody mentions. So if I buy for example JEPI which gives me an average dividend of 7% p.a., 30% of the 7% go to US tax as a non-US person, and then leaves me with a much lower compounding rate than a US citizen. Hence for non-US people in my eyes it makes sense to speculate more on growth with a smaller dividend, such as the S&P 500. Past performance isn't a guarantee for future performance, but due to the tax implications I'd rather do that. Still need to look at money market funds and how those are taxed now that interest rates are up.
Is it better to buy s&p 500 or buy individual stocks that are in s&p?
So why do rental RE if stocks are so great? What is the main benefit of RE compared to stocks with dividends?
I was just telling someone last week why I chose stocks over estate . Cost of entry for stocks as low as 1.00 , my profits can be more than what house cost in less time . Yes there's more risk and yes I lost money but it all loss I can write off against my wins . Homes have to manage and repair
Excellent information
Your information is pure revelation
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for watching!
I agree with you 💯%.
Both stocks and real estate are the way to go. Most of the time they both hold value.
Excellent
Good info!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for creating this video. I am doing bith.
All the best 👍
please send video about self storage this year. I have been looking for it.
You should checkout this video from Clint Coons where he goes over this very topic, ruclips.net/video/QtTtkVyl9g4/видео.html
I wish i had found you when i was 18. No school will teach this.
If stocks and real estate provide about equal returns, why wouldn’t you want the more liquid of the two which is obviously stocks. You also have a much lower barrier to entry.
You can have liquid investments in real estate by investing in REITS or some other liquid real estate product without tying up your money in actual real estate.
Oh and by the way, managing rental real estate also brings with it many many headaches you don’t have with stocks.
I prefer the liquidity of stocks.
great video !!
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it!
solid - thanks
Dividends are treated as long term capital gains? So you're not taxed on the first $40k to $80k of gains?
Real Estate definitely takes more capital even if it's OPM. The biggest difference is leverage imo.
It'd be great to compare dollar for dollar flippers, wholesalers, creative financiers, buy & holders vs active traders, options, and long term index investors
Exactly the biggest difference is leverage. In real estate you have leverage in stocks you don't. You can buy a house by just putting down a fraction of the amount and loaning the rest.
Qualified dividends are taxed at your long term capital gain rates - so, yes, if you are single, 0% for the first $44,625 or $89,250 for MFJ.
Also Gold Mining Stocks
Wow you just said the same thing about gold that i have been preaching. You can’t pay bills or groceries with gold. You can sell it to a dealer but you are taking a hit. Compared gold prices from today and 10yrs ago. Waste of money. But it’s good to have something. I have had money in a low growth stock since 2010 pays 8% dividend, up 129% since I bought it. The key here is diversify into everything. I also rent my other home. But I have a lot of money in growth stocks which then I use to buy properties
Black rock like both.
LOVE IT, still have question what to do when sell my primary resident, having 250K+ tax liability.
Make it into a rental before selling and do both the 121 exclusion and a 1031:-)
thank you
Thank you for watching!
what about the management costs and time investment with real estate? that seems like a big downside to me. I do not want a call at 2 am from my renter that the toilet is not working.
You don't have what it takes to succeed in real estate, yet. Stay away.
Think the dollar will ever “deflate”? It’s purchasing power bounce back to what what is was or increase?
How could it be set on a permanent downward trajectory.
I split 50/50 High Dividend VYM and Real Estate VNQ in a roth ira
Great info! I prefer the liquidity of stocks, I just cracked $900k in my dividend portfolio this last week. Almost 2 years now I started investing with the help of a finance manager who trades for me.
Thank you for watching!
That's awesome & I agree with you, it's best to work with a pro. A friend of mine in California Sacramento who works with this smart lady Erlinia Jedraa Barrett referred me to her so I looked her up & reached out. With about a 250k capital, in a few months I've made over a million. She's amazing. Cheers🌹🥂
@@noah.verickson2952 👍👍
Bots
Who is your financial manager? I would like to make millions as well!!!🎉🎉😢🕺🏿
Rental real estate is great if you want to deal with the headaches. I'm personally not interested with chasing money.
Following his advice will lead you to build wealth over time. The picture is clear if you're disciplined enough to stick with the program.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It's awesome to see you recognizing the importance of discipline in building wealth.
If you don’t own your own home yet should you buy real estate to rent out or to live in first??
how about renting house through airbnb? you can make more money than stock.
Is there a type of Index fund that is all paying dividend?
Think you mean like a SCHD or JEPI. Not endorsing just trying to answer your question
@@Jkburd Yes, thank you very much Josh.
You can buy groceries in Idaho with Silver. Several states are in the process of making good and silver legal tender
You can also convert gold and silver to fiat. The new currency in time will become the new World currency.
I appreciate your lecture.
Anyway to get depreciation benefit without being an active real estate owner? Too much of head ache and work otherwise.
Great question, in order to assist you further, I highly recommend you attend our Free Tax & Asset Protection Workshop where our attorneys and specialists will answer all your questions live at the virtual event. aba.link/40bd86