Several months ago, some missionaries I randomly met on the street in my town invited me to meet with them. I was happy to do so because I enjoy having polite conversations with missionaries where we talk about their beliefs, their backgrounds and I ask questions of genuine interest to me to see if they have good answers or just to see if they've ever thought about the question. In the course of this particular conversation, I asked about exaltation, the need for a body and whether a body is needed to be an exalted being and god like Jesus and his father (Elohim). They gave me the standard Mormon answer that yes, indeed, a body is an essential thing for that and only the Holy Ghost does not have a body because of his special function (something that triggered a few more questions about why or whether embodied gods can't do what the HG does, given their "omnipotence" and what not). Anyway, I then asked if they believed that Jehovah, the main god of the OT, is in fact Jesus. They said yes. I then asked how it was possible for him to already have such god status when he hadn't yet gone through the steps that are supposedly required to attain/earn such status. You know...the whole spiel that Jesus too is obligated to do all the things we are required to do in order to "fulfill all righteousness" or whatever...like even being baptized by John the Baptist, where, presumably, Jesus was baptized in his own name in order to qualify for the benefits of Jesus's own atonement and sacrifice...and take upon himself his own name as a follower of himself and all that stuff. I got the classic deer-in-the-headlights look for a few minutes. Then one missionary came up with the answer that during OT times, Jesus was basically doing a Holy Ghost thing where he didn't need a body. Both of them looked a bit embarrassed about the answer and then decided to end our discussion and indicated to me that they didn't want to see me anymore.
LOL! Jesus was doing the Holy Ghost thing in OT times?! Wow, I have never heard that one before. THANKS for sharing that. Always good to see you my friend!
Mormons often run away when presented with the truth. Poor kids have been indoctrinated since birth and have very little idea about sound Biblical doctrine
This is seriously the most important video on Mormon Theology I've ever seen anyone put out on RUclips. Thank you so much, Kerry. Whenever anyone asks why I was called in for my first disciplinary council, it has been hard to explain and hard to tell people to "trust me" when they've never heard of these ideas, but now I have a clear resource I can point them to that isn't something I made myself. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Attending a Mormon church service in the 60's was like going to the horse track. Week after week, year after year you would sit in the stands and they would trot out the same old horse every time. They rode it fast and furious. They rode it into the ground and yet every Sunday there it was, ready to run again. And that horse was the doctrine of the great apostasy.
Did ya notice that they stopped talking about "free agency" too? 40-50 years ago, that was a regular topic of lessons and talks. "Know this, that every soul is free To choose his life and what he'll be..."
Thank you for more insights BYP. We're always coming out of the wilderness aren't we? Clarity just baby-steps away, after decades of being led this way and that, all over the place. We had all the Messiah books, never read them, I wonder if anyone ever did? I remember reading that we'd never understand the bible unless we had Hebrew. I'm astonied! ❤
If you can sell your books to people who don't read them, what a salesman! I remember as a child my parents bought a fancy big family Bible from a salesman, and I never saw them ever read it.
Sir, I want to clarify that I am not Mormon and have no prior knowledge or understanding of anything related to Mormonism or the LDS Church. However, your ability to communicate and break down these complex concepts has been truly impressive. You’ve explained everything so clearly and methodically that, despite my lack of background, I was able to follow along and actually learn a great deal. While I’m unfamiliar with the individuals or doctrines you mentioned (like McConkie, Kirtland, Apostasy, Divestiture, Margaret Barker, etc.), I plan to look them up to deepen my understanding. I genuinely appreciate you simplifying these ideas for those of us who are new to the subject. You mentioned donating? Where can I support or donate to your channel? -thank you for making it so accessible.- 🤙🏽
I agree that Mormonism is interesting even if it was created by Joseph Smith from his fertile imagination. You're also very correct that the Mormon use of religious terms like "God" needs to be defined if you really want to know what they mean. What struck me as interesting when I first heard of the Mormon understanding of God being a physical, limited but evolving Being was how similar this was to the ancient Greek myths of Gods living on mountain tops having the same flaws as mere humans. If someone says that they believe in "God", then he needs to explain what he means by "God" if you want to know if you believe in the same thing...or not. And I like your humility, not very Mormon, of saying "What do I know?" That's what we're left with if we are honest. But there's hope! I agree with your conclusion that God must be All-powerful and beyond our capacity to comprehend. A good analogy is to think of God as the Painter, and Creation is His painting. You're not going to find God in the painting, but you might get a hint at some of the attributes of God. The big advantage we have today is our awareness of the immensity of the physical universe, God's painting, endless galaxies extending in all directions as far as we are able to see. To my knowledge, every star seems to have at least one planet, and probably several planets, of varying sizes. And we are just beginning to be able to detect and analyze these extra-solar planets. This should make us ponder some basic beliefs about "In the beginning...." Some scientists are even questioning the idea of a "beginning", that the universe has always existed. But if you imagine God as All-powerful and beyond conceptions, then imagining a beginning isn't logical, at least to me. Just because we mere humans can't imagine anything that doesn't have a beginning doesn't mean it isn't so. It's hard to put limits on a Reality that is limitless. Theoretical physicists now also believe that the basic underlying reality of the universe is something they call the "quantum field", and they see the atoms of the physical universe as emerging from, and being absorbed by, this field. They even refer to it as a field of potential, I think. Maybe this Quantum Field is the same Reality as God? I don't know, but why not? Maybe God, or the Source, in religion is just another approach to the ultimate Reality as the Quantum Field is for physicists. I don't think that there are two Realities. That would drive us crazy for sure. But if there is just one Reality, then religious conceptions of this Reality should somehow, some day, be seen as the same as the Quantum Field. Thanks for being so entertaining and hungry for knowledge and understanding. I can't imagine that there are many people in Idaho who seek you out in order to discuss reality. There just aren't many folks like that....anywhere.
BYP: 1Cor 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." If I'm not mistaken, these references are Explicitly referring to "Jehovah" in the Old Testament. What say you?
You obviously don't understand the TWO Powers in Heaven israelite theology of the 2nd temple period. Genesis 19: 24 has two persons of YHWH in that verse : The Invisible Father and the Visible YHWH/ Pre-incarnate Jesus as Paul understands because he was taught this Theology in Biblical Judaism. Before Rabbinic Judaism rejected their own theology.
THank you. It is so interesting to delve deeper into the dive and see what comes of it. MUCH more to come, appreciate the encouragement and support amigo!
This is also abundantly clear in Matthew 22:41-46 when Jesus talks about the messiah referencing psalm 110:1 We know Jesus is the Adonai lord, the messiah, which will sit next to the Lord, Jehovah. If Jesus is Jehovah as the Mormon church says, how does he sit next to himself?
@@harlanlang6556 I guess you would be safe in calling the nature of God a mystery but we have enough in the Bible to understand what he is not. One God, abundantly clear. 3 distinct persons, abundantly clear. How it works is the mystery. But it’s like trying to understand eternity or the lack of time. We can understand it to an extent
Isaiah 43:11 " I, even I, am Yahweh, And there is no savior besides Me. What is your commentary on this, BYP? Seems to indicate that Yahweh is Christ etc
Strange how every sect has to manipulate but imagine the horror show it would create if we had a major group that followed the bible hebrew and new testament word for word stoning on the streets, slavery ect.
I’m confused. Didn’t Jesus feed the thousands? Didn’t he bring back the brother of Martha and Mary? Didn’t he say “ follow me”? I think Jesus being the Son of god is more than just a servant.
You have to realize that Joseph Smith didn't know historical criticism, which development at the same time in Germany (Julius Wellhausen). His ideas about Elohim and YHWH being two distinct persons is not bad for a lay theologian, but has long been succeeded by more thorough theories about the merging of different traditions into a monotheistic system. The Book of Mormon timeline doesn't fit into modern biblical scholarship at all, as the Pentateuch didn't exist before the Babylonian captivity.
Ok, I praised this video in an earlier comment, but I do have one critique. The thing you said at 1:17:30 made no sense: Brigham was not ever putting Michael above Elohim, as you said: Brigham was saying Adam is God the Father to us. The "Elohim" of the Temple is the Father God OF Adam/Michael. He was Adam's God, not ours. To us, he would be a Grandfather of our spirits, and we do not worship him, we only worship one God, our Father, Adam, "the only God with whom we have to do." (The JEHOVAH of the Temple Endowment is the spiritual Elder Brother of Adam/Michael, from the world where they used to live, although this is a more subtle point.) Adam/Michael is the one who is OUR Jehovah on this Earth (who is identical to the Biblical Elohim-Jehovah written about everywhere after Genesis 4), although the Temple never refers to him directly in this way. See Genesis 4:26 "then men began to call upon the name of JEHOVAH", or the statement from the Endowment "...and [we] make you, Adam, LORD (i.e. Jehovah) over the whole earth and all things on the face thereof." Adam/Michael, after finishing his work on this earth, did not return to the dust, but as Brigham said (transribed by Buerger): "In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World, and come in the spirit/glory to Mary and she conceived... for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came."
Edward Stevensen in 1896, quoted by Boyd Kirkland on page 40, makes this case pretty clear with his journal entry: "Certainly Heloheim and Jehovah stands before Adam, or else I am very much mistaken. Then 1st Heloheim, 2nd Jehovah, 3d Michael-Adam, 4th Jesus Christ, Our Elder Brother, in the other World from whence our spirits come .... Then Who is Jehovah? The only begoton Son of Heloheim on Jehovah’s world." Another way to look at it, is the Bruce R McConkie and modern Mormon way of viewing it, is actually worshipping the Gods under their titles from two worlds ago. In our present world, Jesus "is the Savior" and "Michael/Adam" is "God the Father." In the world before this, "Michael/Adam" was "the Savior" and "Temple Jehovah" was "God the Father." And in the world two before this (two worlds ago), "Temple Jehovah" was "the Savior" and "Temple Elohim" was "God the Father." It's just a progressive line that they ascend through, like the Officers in a Masonic Lodge.
It does say in Isaiah 53: 1 that they are going to reveal the arm of Yahweh, and proceed to describe his mortal ministry. Jesus Christ (Yahweh) took or laid our sins upon himself. And for the joy Jesus Christ (Yahweh) endured the cross. Besides, who would be lying, Yahweh or John, Paul and the author of the Acts of the Apostles. For Yahweh calls himself the Redeemer, and says "Beside me there is NO Savior." But John, Paul and in the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus Christ is called the Savior, the only Savior. Which is true? Both! For Yahweh is Jesus Christ, the Savior and Servant of the Father El.
We have to pray for our mormon friends and family that they find true christianity and can transition away from the mormon church into true christianity peacefully, safely, and with their morals intact.
BYP : 😊JESUS is the Visible YHWH ( Jehovah) and the Father is the Invisible YHWH ( Jehovah) of the TWO Powers in Heaven israelite theology. Rabbinic Judaism rejected their own theology after Christianity started because Christianity is based on this earlier Biblical Judaism. YHWH / Jehovah is Father, pre- incarnate Jesus and the Spirit of YHWH/Jehovah. This becomes the Trinity in the New Testament and Church age.
In Isaiah 26, Jehovah states that together they will rise with my dead body! Paul writes in the NT that Moses esteamed the reproach of CHRIST greater than the treasures of Egypt!!! Now, tell me who Jehovah is!!! You don:t know theology or the Bible, or Mormon doctrine worth a darn and you should stop showing your ignorance by doing these!!!
Several months ago, some missionaries I randomly met on the street in my town invited me to meet with them. I was happy to do so because I enjoy having polite conversations with missionaries where we talk about their beliefs, their backgrounds and I ask questions of genuine interest to me to see if they have good answers or just to see if they've ever thought about the question.
In the course of this particular conversation, I asked about exaltation, the need for a body and whether a body is needed to be an exalted being and god like Jesus and his father (Elohim). They gave me the standard Mormon answer that yes, indeed, a body is an essential thing for that and only the Holy Ghost does not have a body because of his special function (something that triggered a few more questions about why or whether embodied gods can't do what the HG does, given their "omnipotence" and what not). Anyway, I then asked if they believed that Jehovah, the main god of the OT, is in fact Jesus. They said yes. I then asked how it was possible for him to already have such god status when he hadn't yet gone through the steps that are supposedly required to attain/earn such status. You know...the whole spiel that Jesus too is obligated to do all the things we are required to do in order to "fulfill all righteousness" or whatever...like even being baptized by John the Baptist, where, presumably, Jesus was baptized in his own name in order to qualify for the benefits of Jesus's own atonement and sacrifice...and take upon himself his own name as a follower of himself and all that stuff.
I got the classic deer-in-the-headlights look for a few minutes. Then one missionary came up with the answer that during OT times, Jesus was basically doing a Holy Ghost thing where he didn't need a body. Both of them looked a bit embarrassed about the answer and then decided to end our discussion and indicated to me that they didn't want to see me anymore.
LOL! Jesus was doing the Holy Ghost thing in OT times?! Wow, I have never heard that one before. THANKS for sharing that. Always good to see you my friend!
Mormons often run away when presented with the truth. Poor kids have been indoctrinated since birth and have very little idea about sound Biblical doctrine
This is seriously the most important video on Mormon Theology I've ever seen anyone put out on RUclips. Thank you so much, Kerry. Whenever anyone asks why I was called in for my first disciplinary council, it has been hard to explain and hard to tell people to "trust me" when they've never heard of these ideas, but now I have a clear resource I can point them to that isn't something I made myself. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Attending a Mormon church service in the 60's was like going to the horse track. Week after week, year after year you would sit in the stands and they would trot out the same old horse every time. They rode it fast and furious. They rode it into the ground and yet every Sunday there it was, ready to run again. And that horse was the doctrine of the great apostasy.
I have read some early Christian works. No sign of a great apostasy.
Did ya notice that they stopped talking about "free agency" too? 40-50 years ago, that was a regular topic of lessons and talks.
"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be..."
@@randyjordan5521 In fact they have denied there is free agency these days. Now its moral agency.
@@TheBackyardProfessor Yeah, I had heard that.
@@TheBackyardProfessor I have noticed the switch from free agency to moral agency. "Know this that every souls is free..." is never heard anymore.
Thank you for more insights BYP. We're always coming out of the wilderness aren't we? Clarity just baby-steps away, after decades of being led this way and that, all over the place. We had all the Messiah books, never read them, I wonder if anyone ever did? I remember reading that we'd never understand the bible unless we had Hebrew. I'm astonied! ❤
If you can sell your books to people who don't read them, what a salesman! I remember as a child my parents bought a fancy big family Bible from a salesman, and I never saw them ever read it.
Sir, I want to clarify that I am not Mormon and have no prior knowledge or understanding of anything related to Mormonism or the LDS Church. However, your ability to communicate and break down these complex concepts has been truly impressive.
You’ve explained everything so clearly and methodically that, despite my lack of background, I was able to follow along and actually learn a great deal. While I’m unfamiliar with the individuals or doctrines you mentioned (like McConkie, Kirtland, Apostasy, Divestiture, Margaret Barker, etc.), I plan to look them up to deepen my understanding. I genuinely appreciate you simplifying these ideas for those of us who are new to the subject. You mentioned donating? Where can I support or donate to your channel? -thank you for making it so accessible.- 🤙🏽
Found your PayPal sir and just donated to your cause - Thanks again for an awesome show and channel 🤙🏽
@@freethoughtpasefika Thank you that is very kind of you. Appreciate your support
I agree that Mormonism is interesting even if it was created by Joseph Smith from his fertile imagination. You're also very correct that the Mormon use of religious terms like "God" needs to be defined if you really want to know what they mean. What struck me as interesting when I first heard of the Mormon understanding of God being a physical, limited but evolving Being was how similar this was to the ancient Greek myths of Gods living on mountain tops having the same flaws as mere humans. If someone says that they believe in "God", then he needs to explain what he means by "God" if you want to know if you believe in the same thing...or not. And I like your humility, not very Mormon, of saying "What do I know?" That's what we're left with if we are honest. But there's hope! I agree with your conclusion that God must be All-powerful and beyond our capacity to comprehend. A good analogy is to think of God as the Painter, and Creation is His painting. You're not going to find God in the painting, but you might get a hint at some of the attributes of God.
The big advantage we have today is our awareness of the immensity of the physical universe, God's painting, endless galaxies extending in all directions as far as we are able to see. To my knowledge, every star seems to have at least one planet, and probably several planets, of varying sizes. And we are just beginning to be able to detect and analyze these extra-solar planets. This should make us ponder some basic beliefs about "In the beginning...." Some scientists are even questioning the idea of a "beginning", that the universe has always existed. But if you imagine God as All-powerful and beyond conceptions, then imagining a beginning isn't logical, at least to me. Just because we mere humans can't imagine anything that doesn't have a beginning doesn't mean it isn't so. It's hard to put limits on a Reality that is limitless.
Theoretical physicists now also believe that the basic underlying reality of the universe is something they call the "quantum field", and they see the atoms of the physical universe as emerging from, and being absorbed by, this field. They even refer to it as a field of potential, I think. Maybe this Quantum Field is the same Reality as God? I don't know, but why not? Maybe God, or the Source, in religion is just another approach to the ultimate Reality as the Quantum Field is for physicists. I don't think that there are two Realities. That would drive us crazy for sure. But if there is just one Reality, then religious conceptions of this Reality should somehow, some day, be seen as the same as the Quantum Field.
Thanks for being so entertaining and hungry for knowledge and understanding. I can't imagine that there are many people in Idaho who seek you out in order to discuss reality. There just aren't many folks like that....anywhere.
BYP: 1Cor 10:4
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
If I'm not mistaken, these references are Explicitly referring to "Jehovah" in the Old Testament.
What say you?
You obviously don't understand the TWO Powers in Heaven israelite theology of the 2nd temple period.
Genesis 19: 24 has two persons of YHWH in that verse : The Invisible Father and the Visible YHWH/ Pre-incarnate Jesus as Paul understands because he was taught this Theology in Biblical Judaism.
Before Rabbinic Judaism rejected their own theology.
Isaiah as h 53, 12 States that Jehovah is the only Savio! Paul stated that Moses esteemed the reproach greater than the treasures of Egypt!
The truth she'll set you free
I love your lessons!
THank you. It is so interesting to delve deeper into the dive and see what comes of it. MUCH more to come, appreciate the encouragement and support amigo!
This is also abundantly clear in Matthew 22:41-46 when Jesus talks about the messiah referencing psalm 110:1
We know Jesus is the Adonai lord, the messiah, which will sit next to the Lord, Jehovah.
If Jesus is Jehovah as the Mormon church says, how does he sit next to himself?
That's a mystery, like the sound of one hand clapping.
@@harlanlang6556 I guess you would be safe in calling the nature of God a mystery but we have enough in the Bible to understand what he is not. One God, abundantly clear. 3 distinct persons, abundantly clear. How it works is the mystery. But it’s like trying to understand eternity or the lack of time. We can understand it to an extent
Isaiah 43:11 "
I, even I, am Yahweh, And there is no savior besides Me.
What is your commentary on this, BYP? Seems to indicate that Yahweh is Christ etc
Mormonism, its not a lie if you believe it...
Greetings BYP!! Thank you for your service!!
So what is the significance for mormon doctrine to make Jesus be Jehovah in the O.T.?
Strange how every sect has to manipulate but imagine the horror show it would create if we had a major group that followed the bible hebrew and new testament word for word stoning on the streets, slavery ect.
I’m confused.
Didn’t Jesus feed the thousands?
Didn’t he bring back the brother of Martha and Mary?
Didn’t he say “ follow me”?
I think Jesus being the Son of god is more than just a servant.
Also, Christ was Jehovahmorin! Where do you think the te Immanuel came to be?!?
You have to realize that Joseph Smith didn't know historical criticism, which development at the same time in Germany (Julius Wellhausen). His ideas about Elohim and YHWH being two distinct persons is not bad for a lay theologian, but has long been succeeded by more thorough theories about the merging of different traditions into a monotheistic system. The Book of Mormon timeline doesn't fit into modern biblical scholarship at all, as the Pentateuch didn't exist before the Babylonian captivity.
Ok, I praised this video in an earlier comment, but I do have one critique. The thing you said at 1:17:30 made no sense:
Brigham was not ever putting Michael above Elohim, as you said: Brigham was saying Adam is God the Father to us.
The "Elohim" of the Temple is the Father God OF Adam/Michael. He was Adam's God, not ours. To us, he would be a Grandfather of our spirits, and we do not worship him, we only worship one God, our Father, Adam, "the only God with whom we have to do."
(The JEHOVAH of the Temple Endowment is the spiritual Elder Brother of Adam/Michael, from the world where they used to live, although this is a more subtle point.)
Adam/Michael is the one who is OUR Jehovah on this Earth (who is identical to the Biblical Elohim-Jehovah written about everywhere after Genesis 4), although the Temple never refers to him directly in this way.
See Genesis 4:26 "then men began to call upon the name of JEHOVAH", or the statement from the Endowment "...and [we] make you, Adam, LORD (i.e. Jehovah) over the whole earth and all things on the face thereof."
Adam/Michael, after finishing his work on this earth, did not return to the dust, but as Brigham said (transribed by Buerger): "In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World, and come in the spirit/glory to Mary and she conceived... for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came."
Edward Stevensen in 1896, quoted by Boyd Kirkland on page 40, makes this case pretty clear with his journal entry: "Certainly Heloheim and Jehovah stands before Adam, or else I am very much mistaken. Then 1st Heloheim, 2nd Jehovah, 3d Michael-Adam, 4th Jesus Christ, Our Elder Brother, in the other World from whence our spirits come .... Then Who is Jehovah? The only begoton Son of Heloheim on Jehovah’s world."
Another way to look at it, is the Bruce R McConkie and modern Mormon way of viewing it, is actually worshipping the Gods under their titles from two worlds ago. In our present world, Jesus "is the Savior" and "Michael/Adam" is "God the Father." In the world before this, "Michael/Adam" was "the Savior" and "Temple Jehovah" was "God the Father." And in the world two before this (two worlds ago), "Temple Jehovah" was "the Savior" and "Temple Elohim" was "God the Father." It's just a progressive line that they ascend through, like the Officers in a Masonic Lodge.
It does say in Isaiah 53: 1 that they are going to reveal the arm of Yahweh, and proceed to describe his mortal ministry. Jesus Christ (Yahweh) took or laid our sins upon himself. And for the joy Jesus Christ (Yahweh) endured the cross. Besides, who would be lying, Yahweh or John, Paul and the author of the Acts of the Apostles. For Yahweh calls himself the Redeemer, and says "Beside me there is NO Savior." But John, Paul and in the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus Christ is called the Savior, the only Savior. Which is true? Both! For Yahweh is Jesus Christ, the Savior and Servant of the Father El.
We have to pray for our mormon friends and family that they find true christianity and can transition away from the mormon church into true christianity peacefully, safely, and with their morals intact.
BYP : 😊JESUS is the Visible YHWH ( Jehovah) and the Father is the Invisible YHWH ( Jehovah) of the TWO Powers in Heaven israelite theology.
Rabbinic Judaism rejected their own theology after Christianity started because Christianity is based on this earlier Biblical Judaism.
YHWH / Jehovah is Father, pre- incarnate Jesus and the Spirit of YHWH/Jehovah.
This becomes the Trinity in the New Testament and Church age.
In Isaiah 26, Jehovah states that together they will rise with my dead body! Paul writes in the NT that Moses esteamed the reproach of CHRIST greater than the treasures of Egypt!!! Now, tell me who Jehovah is!!! You don:t know theology or the Bible, or Mormon doctrine worth a darn and you should stop showing your ignorance by doing these!!!