Noisy WAH Repair - 1970s DeArmond 1802 Weeper Pedal
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- In this video, we'll look at a vintage DeArmond Model 1802 Weeper Wah Guitar Pedal sent to me for repair. The owner says he bought it on Reverb and can't get it to work. We'll figure out what the problem is and review the circuit, comparing it to wahs from other companies such as the Vox V847 and the Dunlop Crybaby. Finally, we'll demo the pedal through an amp I built using my PRS.
#Guitar #Repair #Electronics
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I used to do a lot of small engine repair, you'd be amazed how much equipment came in out of gas even though the owner was sure it wasn't.
Slingblade!
Way cool, Brad! I scored two of those NIB this summer. They came from a music store that closed in the early 80's and had been in storage. One of them had almost no range and all I had to do was re-clock that gear towards the high side.
Are they the "Block" style logos or the "Script" style as this one is? 🤔
@@Tacopusher These are script logos.
How's the sound difference between the two? I've also got a pair of script logos as well, but the sound it very different from one to the other. Upon further inspection, mine seem to have different potentiometers in them, or at least different variations of the same pot. My first one says Type EJ and says Extra Life under that and my second one simply says Type J and says 8112 underneath that. I tend to favor the Extra Life opposed to the regular one.
Thanks for this video. I’ve had one of these in a drawer for years. You inspired me to check out tonight. Replaced the old battery connector. What do you know… it works! Thanks again for uploading this.
This was AWESOME!! I want to reverse engineer this one and put it in a wah case I have. Thanks so much brad for doing what you do!!
Mine is a 1982. Perfectly silent. Great pedal with little better mids than a crybaby.
@@tednugentlives wahs like this are super simple and awesome sounding. With a few mods, they can be super super versatile for a nerd like me!!
My first time seeing one too!
That Dunlop diode/cap network is likely a “turn on -pop filter”.
I’m a fan of these older less known Wah pedals. They are significantly less expensive than a vintage Vox and nearly identical inside. Then again, the Xotic Clyde is a killer Wah for even less!
My first diy pedal build had an inductorless circuit mounted in an old sewing machine regulator pedal, equipped with an LDR and a vane to keep it simple mechanically.
Soon after that I bought a Colorsound wah which DID have an inductor (huge sound improvement). It also produced quite some hiss, and when activated the bass sound of my guitar almost disappeared.
These pedals sell for crazy prices (like $400) just like the Watkins Copicat tape echo goes for even more.
Now I am reconstructiing the Colorsound wah from modern parts. And I found a decent pedal casing kit from China!
You did a great job with it and great playing at the end!
The diode on the Dunlop CryBaby is for polarity protection. (well a very cheap and crude way)
That whole rail is the power supply rail.
Correct. And the cap across it keeps power supply impedance low, at audio frequencies.
I've got a early 70s Dunlop wah pedal that's never worked in about 20 years and it's just a display piece now to be honest. But I do fancy cobbling together a tube screamer circuit into it just because it looks so cool and I'd like to use it in some fashion.... I've never actually looked inside it to try and see what the problem is and this video has peaked my interest in ripping it apart....cheers .
There isn't much in a standard Dunlop crybaby. It's usually the pot or jacks are worn out. At least that's what has always gone wrong with any that I have owned. I don't know how many turns the pots are rated for, but they get heavily used.
@@deaddiver3768 it will be something silly as it got wet from an outside gig 20 odd years ago and stopped working. I don't use a wah much if any now but I love the look of the old Dunlop pedals. I will definitely dig into it in the next few days for sure.
Definitely try to fix it.. The old ones are very desirable, so I wouldn't go transplanting another pedal type in there if it doesn't work out
Fix that bad boy! It’ll be a great piece of gear.
Give it a go. I've picked up a few pedals super cheap and an Ampeg B15N for $50 all because of loose jacks or connections.
Just a turn of a wrench and presto! a fully working pedal.
A lot of the older pedals use the case and jack as the ground connection, so if it gets loose it will keep cutting out or not work at all.
Could also be a loose wire come un-soldered somewhere as happened to a PA speaker once.
I hope you are a bit recovered and feeling better, Brad. Nice to see you here again.
Developed a scratchy throat and tickle in the nose. Cold season has arrived in the Linzy household.
@@TheGuitologist well, Brad, but this is normal. Here in Madrid it's the same (well…maybe a bit less cold…). Hope you get recovered soon, and again thanks for being there. Take good care of yourself.
Thanks Brad!
Surprised you didn’t use the “tongue” test on that 9 volt. I’ve been using it for years.
You fixed it! So cool to see this in real time. You rule Brad! Hit me up
no he didnt. Lots of mistakes and erroneous guesswork here. The cap is 25V not 2.5V and come on dont be lazy and tack it, the board is only on with 2 screws. The first 470 is OHMS not 470K. And after all that he didnt even fix the noisy transistor. He doesnt know basic electronics or how pedals work, all random hack guesswork
Nice work brad that sounds awesome!
It’s like a clone of a Maestro Boomerang! Awesome sounding pedal!
Great fix. You're a genius. BTW, I'm not getting notifications now, for this or the Boaz video. You pissed off the AI or something.
Me too . Not the movement…. The notification!
That diode is for reverse polarity protection. The cap next to it is for filtering.
Exactly
That level of noise is definitely not normal for a DeArmond M1802; mine is a couple of years older than that one (though a bit prettier) and it has always been really quiet since I bought it around 16 years ago. For what it's worth, I've played through 3 or 4 others over the years, at least one of which was in fairly gnarly shape. That one was a little bit scratchy sounding, but I don't remember having that particular problem with any of the others.
This is so fascinating; my other wah is a Vox 847, basically just like what that schematic is for- but there's a slight problem with the schematic. As far as I know, Vox wah pedals were not manufactured at all from (roughly) 1980 to 1994. The V847 was manufactured (I believe exclusively by Dunlop) here in the U.S. from 1994 to 2007, when they began production of the V847a in China.
The mechanical aspects of Wah pedals were always a problem as they tended to take quite a beating back in the day because they took a lot of moving forces. Certainly rubber end stops got crushed with time and those rotary pots/gears and balance mechanism took a lot of punishment ... Even the rubber feet under the pedal case themselves could get splayed out and broken off due to the application of weight.
Great to see you fix one up ...
Awesome video! Made me pull out my old cry baby & give it a ride! I'm a Voodoo Child baby..
Dammit. You have a brilliant mind. And a hell of a player. I enjoy your vids since I'm a player. Your content really is amazing and it gives me hope on my old gear I got. Thanks.
Don’t throw anything away.
Hey, the potentiometer itself is interesting - I wonder why the manufacturer would use this tapped kind rather than a typical one, like the other pedal has.
I wonder about changing the transistors to BC547 or BC550, and/or changing resistors to metal oxide film type in order to get rid of the noise.
I've got two of them and the potentiometers are different from each other. One is older than the next and the "Script" logos are the older ones. These wahs have the Best "quack" to them and seem to nail that old school tone spot on!
Changing transistors won't help much unless the transistor is 'defective' and generates excessive noise.
Man Brad you're so good at fixing stuff. Wish you lived in my area.
I have an old cry baby pedal from around the same time frame that is noisy also, not sure how to fix it but it does work
Those extra parts on the power section of the Dunlop are to filter out noise when using an external power supply. I have this pedal, it does have a DC input which is not shown on the schematic. I also have a '71 Colorsound Wah, and a '77 Thomas Organ Crybaby (the one Dunlop based theirs on)
Great video Brad!!! Good times for sure.
That pedal has a nasty honk...very cool!
That's wild, can't believe how similar those all are! 😂 Pretty cool wah though..never seen one of those before. Definitely looks a _lot_ older than it really is. 👍
I have a Fulltone wah.. It was kind of a "end all, be all" solution for me. There's so many options on it, a tweakers dream! 😎
love that little homemade amp!!
29:42 The 0.001uF capacitor is there to bypass any interference picked up, to ground, especially RF. Because there's an inductor and capacitors in this, it makes it susceptible to RF pick up, which will sometimes manifest itself as an AM radio station playing through your amp.
The 1k resistor and the reverse biased diode are there to protect against trying to connect the battery the wrong way round, but looking at the circuit I'm hard-pressed to see how any damage could happen if the battery was in the wrong way round and D1 and the 1k resistor were omitted. Q1, Q2 and the 4u7 electrolytic all have a fair amount of resistance between them and the supply rails.
D1 would deffo go short circuit eventually, if the battery was put in the wrong way round and the 1k resistor was omitted.
I'm curious now. I want to build this on a breadboard without the protection to see if anything is damaged by reversing the supply. 🤔
Our guitarist, had a Cry-Baby that ... in the down position ...
got a local Spanish language AM station .... make your own joke !
@@zankyalbo2208 Be sure : maybe the same station can be found in south west of France, at least :p (but by an amp, marshall MG10). It's strange to ear some Spanish alone in your bedroom :p
thanks for the tip on 9V batteries.
I built a little amp like a little circuit board little bitty amp is watching you man you you gave me the confidence to build a little amp I'm going to try to work up to make it wire my own damn hand-wired tube amps you know
Very throaty and non Shafty. I love it.
The Diode is just to protect the circuit from reverse battery polarity...
That vox . 0011 mfd cap wont pass power (conduction) through that diode think about it? Diode protection would not use a cap? It would tied direct with no cap in series.. Its a signal high pass noise filter of some sort.
@Guitologist Well at least it doesn't pick up your local radio station like my Cry-Baby 535Q does.
My Olsen Electronics fuzz tone would pick up Cousin Brucie on WABC in NYC. Backing off the treble on the amplifier made it go away.
@@nymsmacgregor7232 Ha! I gotta try that man.
Very cool! That gives me a heads up.
Diode/resistor are for reverse polarity protection - in case you touch the battery backwards during battery change.
Long shot, but I would have tried replacing the cap from the pot wiper arm. If that cap is leaky it would give a noise sound like we heard.
To quick check transistors that are going bad causing noise I would spray them with freeze spray. If they are bad they will really start crackling
Woah! I had one of those back in the '80s.
Dunlop, clipping protection. I agree. D1 is probably a Zener.
That s the narrowest possible sweep in a wah i`ve ever heard . Personally I`d prefer to keep the noise for a wider sweep IMO . Cool video though Brad . Keep `em coming .
Limiting the physical range didn’t limit the tonal sweep in this case. Just removed noise.
@@TheGuitologist I bow to your expertese
That pot can be cleaned.
White lithium grease for the plastic gears. Nice Wah. 👍
These have been my absolute Favorite wahs for so many years now! Best kept secret wah-wah, in my opinion. The Crybaby/Vox style just don't have enough pedal travel for me and they've always felt stunted or something 🤔 could never get the groove right.
Thank you for making this vid tho!! Haven't even watched it yet, but I know it's gonna be good. Happy New Year! 🥳
Well, it didn't turn out how I Thought it was gonna 😅 hah
16:25 Naaaaaa man, you're supposed to pull that out. Gets more pedal travel like that 👍
It sounds to me like the noise is either a flakey transistor or a flakey resistor, both of which can make that type of hissy noise when they start to head south.
I'm leaning transistor. I would have expected a flakey resistor would have changed the noise when I tapped it with the ol finger or chopstick.
@@TheGuitologist Yeah, could be. I would run into this kind of fussy thing with mixer preamps a lot and ya know... it's always the last component you swap out that's the culprit. :-)
Excuse me, sir, but what manner of amp are you playing through at the end? That’s a real serious combination of tones you’ve got goin, there, mate!
It’s an amp I built. There is a link to the amp build video at the end of this one.
In your schematic the battery is connected to the TIP!
gosh dang you are a good guitar player
That crybaby diode cap circuit is a reverse polarity protection circuit if you connect that reversed that 1k resistor will burn 🔥 out. The. 0011 cap is to clean up transients from B+
I could understand that with a wall wort, but this schematic shows no power supply jack. That's what confused me. No need I can see in that with a polarized battery terminal.
I appreciate your two grey stickers on your table.
Damn, but I do love your intros! Hope you are having a relaxed one.
i love wah pedals great video really cool to see how you work it all out.
Sure beats trying to get that effect with a tone control. I know some guys modify the tone circuit on their telecaster and turn the switch plate around and can do pretty good wah effects with their pinky finger. It takes some coordination to do that. I still think a pedal is the way to go though. Very expressive control.
buy a pin vise and set of miniature drills jewelers sizes
use about .o40 to drill a hole in the pot
then spray it full of deoxit
patience and skill is paramount
Wow brad nice little repair an those tones in thending demo was badd ass..👌👍🤘...the warble or tremelo or vibrato I think I hear is so sweet sounding.......nice video brad
I could be wrong , but I’d assume the little extra bit in the cry baby has to do with plugging it in to a wall wort . I once had an issue with mine , and called Dunlops tech support . I talked with a tech , and one thing he mentioned is that they work better on a batt. And they can be noisy when plugged in. Even though it had a circuit for that , it only made it better not gone. Or something to that nature. And Something about 60 cycle hum . 🤷♂️
But you know me Brad , I’m just a picker , not really a tech.
It is useful to use silocon elastic band over battery and conector to shrink battery conector with baterry outlets. Easy and handy.
But, before fiddling around mechanical setting of sweep range, I would clean pot track with technical alcohol - it is the most probable reason of many noise issues in such a devices. You mechanical repairment only set another freq range of high border so it is lower now. And then BC239 or BC413 instead of those inside. Minimally basic noise will go down. There are still another hacks for noise issues - cap 10nF paralelly with choke and cap 22nF from pot center to ground. Enjoy! CHI :@)
I have one of these but the volume pedal version, I’m going to be doing a tag board fuzz with the sweep being the gain range in it. I love these pedals because there’s more room than a NY apartment in them.
Cool idea. I like a foot-controlled fuzz idea.
Cool idea. I like a foot-controlled fuzz idea.
@@TheGuitologist Hey, there's and echo in here!
@@TheGuitologist Hey, there's an echo in here! lolz
Watkins Copicat-picat-icat-cat-t-t-t-t ... Stay free, B. R 🍻 😎 🌠 🤔
Id say noise filter and reverse polarity protection? Thanks for the video Brad
the diode and cap on scheme isn't just alimentation related ? (seen in some schematics)
hey brad,i bought an old vox wah from ebay like 13 years ago. was from a pawn shop in seattle wash in an old looking orig white vox box that had jimi hendrix on the outside in ink pen. strange,never thought anything of it and sold it a year later.
I could be wrong, but I believe that's from around 1971..early 70's....not sure about that pot..it could have been replaced at some point but that's not a generic off-the shelf part..would have been hard to come by until the mid-late '80's.. DeArmond pedals always looked primitive like something out of a mad scientists lab or early industrial revolution steam punk-ish. The frying noise is probably a noisy transistor...
I think you’re right about the noisy transistor.
That thing looks familiar!
I know it feels bad to charge for an easy fix but, how many hours have you worked for free on some intermittent problem the keeps coming back to your bench?
I have a identical dearmond pedal shell (made of plastic) by maestro/Gibson division. It was a volume pedal, turned it into a wah. Rarely use anymore.
Try putting something else in it, like maybe a flanger circuit. Just a thought.
Bollocks. No notification, no idea this was up until more than 24 hrs after. Anyways I am here now. Screw Susan.
I have a 70’s Wah that I bought brand new. One day it stopped working. I had it repaired. Then it happened again. I had it repaired again. It stopped working again. So I put it on a shelf and bought a new one.
I think the pot back tab is so if the pedal is at 50% it has minimal effect .
Down or up gives the full effect .
PS
The BC109 is a low noise transistor .
2N4124 is general purpose transistor & the 2N3904 is a planar switching transistors !
Hello again, Brad. Timestamp circa 1' 50": Sometimes the nipple switches need a bit of support ...
As always: Thank you. Stay free. Rab 🍻 😎 🌠 🎯
I knew DeArmond from those silicon string mini basses they made back then but that's it .
Yea that's a pedal mod. Every wah I have ever owned was noisy like that when the effect is engaged.
I had DeArmond volume pedal all with the photocell and it had hinges in it for some reason. Can’t remember if it had the gear with the teeth. The hinges kept coming loose; I was forever opening it up and tightening them. Finally gave up on it. When I moved to another house I didn’t take it with me. I have two different Jimi Hendrix wah-wah’s from the late 80’s/early 90’s that I need to get a true bypass mod done to. Hope someone sells a mid kit for it.
The emitter resister on Q-1 is 470 ohms (.yellow purple brown,)....not 470K,...
Using lower noise transistors, and more filtering across the 9 volt battery helps get rid of the crackling noise. As black plastic transistors age they often become more noisy.
One reason the battery doesn't make good contact with the battery clip , is that when 9 volt batteries became mostly made in China or Asia, someone approximated the distance between battery poles in mm rather than inches and settled on a different dimension. Old American battery clips often do not easily accommodate Asian made batteries which are also wider, than old USA made 9 V batteries.
My guess is the pot may have been previously changed,... a tapped pot of one meg is usually a volume pot, with the tap being used to apply EQ caps/ resistors to approximate counteracting the Fletcher / Munson "loudness" curve, at low volume. Those sealed pots were usually Allen Bradleys the similar ones made by Precision in Canada are also excellent. You can take them apart by bending up the tabs on the edge. to spray clean the element or use isopropanol on a q-tip. Great video.
geez he should be happy with that it sounds great, any wha is subject to funk, I think all 3 mine need work.. adjustment and tone stack..
I have an old original Morley Volume/Wah, and the transistors were very hissy. An easy fix on those big ol' circuit boards.
Very nice
Where have you been all your life? That there is one of those deep fat fryer simulators...
I have a DeArmond thunderbolt wah (I think that's the name).
Did that belong to 'Big Foot' ?
any way to modify vintage wah's to take 9volts DC? because I have a 1970's Thomas Organ Co. Crybaby wah.
Sounds good.
Awesome! Btw, 100k is a standard value for wah pot, unlikely to be something else. Noise is normal. Although I fixed noise in mine by putting (i believe it was) 10 000uf cap, or something like that, power to ground.
I have several of these (three, I think) and was going to do a little video, too, given that two of them don't work. We grabbed one in my old band in the late '80s because they felt a bit darker and gnarlier than the traditional Cry Baby, which was already beyond cliche. Have you ever gotten any of those Morley optical wahs on your bench?
I have not had to repair any Morley optical. I’m guessing those will be super reliable.
@@TheGuitologist I don't know anything about their wahs, but their volume pedal is a pretty interesting affair. It's a light bulb that shines on an LDR, and there is a piece of black felt that the pedal lowers in front of the bulb to shut off the amount of light getting to the LDR. It's pretty inventive, really, and you never have to worry about the pot getting scratchy, because there isn't one. I wouldn't want to have invented it and made it work, but it's a pretty simple idea.
What exactly does it do? Based on the sound (at least with 60 Hz hum as input), it seems to introduce some distortion (clipping?) and frequency modulation (pitch change). I wonder if there’s a schematic available?
He drew 1 for it at around 24 min into the video.
Hiya Brad 🤘🤘🤘!!
The 2N4124 uses the same emitter resistor values and collector resistor values for biasing. The datasheets HFE value and the collector current value will give you the DC gain. If would be nice if you can make a video lesson about transistor biasing values because the Collector current DIVIDED by the transistors HFE will give the result of the DC gain. The other ways used BC109 so its a different HFE value and collector current value.
D1 serves as a reverse battery protection
Does the modern Crybaby have a 9V power supply jack? I can’t remember. If so, that would explain it. Omitted from the schematic, if so.
@@TheGuitologist I have a CryBaby from the late 80"s and it has a jack for a 9V power supply.
sounds like its oscillating at radio frequencies. put it on a scope.
Shouldn't you just plug in a guitar since it is grounded and see what it does about the noise.
That date could be right. I have a DeArmond volume pedal I would have bought in the mid or late 80s that’s in the same style case.
put a stopper on the back throw. Some guys glue guitar picks. Never mind you figured it out.No just put a bumper on the rear of the base.
Why don't we hear of custom wound transformers, like we do about custom wound pickups?
Sure there are dozens of pickup makers, but a scant few transformer companies.
What if you could add 10 or 20 volts to the B+, and maybe a few more milliamps too, how would the sound be affected?
So much interest in small vintage circuit amps these days, sounds like it could be a worthwhile pursuit.
There isn't much need. Plus, the market would be so small, it would hardly be worth doing. Here is the thing, all a power transformer does is change the amount of voltage you are using of the 120V available. It's either making it larger or smaller, depending on the need. Then, you run that through a diode to flatten it to almost DC and then add caps to make it DC. Then add resistors to give you whatever voltage you need that is smaller than what you're starting out with. It's just a matter of using a larger tranny if you need more volts or current. Changing the transformer by such a small amount isn't worth the trouble. The only way changing the transformer would change much is if you're adding a fair amount of voltage, especially in an amp of 45W or up. And once again, all you need to do is swap up for the next larger one from the same manufacturer, usually Hammond.
I see where you're coming from, but there are FAR less expensive ways to alter the sound of am amp or any circuit, really. Especially where power supplies are concerned.
@@willmorrison1022 I'm not saying this would be for everyone, most of us are happy to have instruments and gear that work pretty good and sound pretty good, and when I say "pretty good", most of us do not have trained ears for judging instruments. But if you were willing to make a bigger investment, couldn't you get better tone?
If you read up about professional "hero" musicians, they may own hundreds of vintage amps and lots and lots of guitars too. And where do these come from? I'll bet that most are referrals, like somebody trades a piece of vintage gear to a shop for something else, if that piece is really good, the shop guy gets on the phone and calls a broker or someone who has the ear of people with big money to spend, because they want the absolute best .I know that on occasion some famous guy buys something from Ebay too, but I'll bet that's not so much.
I don't have the energy to go to a guitar store and try out a dozen amps to see if any one really stands out, so I work with what I have. Mine sounds pretty good too, but I wonder what it would sound like by trying out a bunch of output transformers, for example. Those are not so scary.
Top musicians pay big bucks to have their amps serviced and modded by the best pros out there, that's a fact.
@@richardweinberger2756 Okay, now, with output trannies, you're talking a totally different ballgame. Those DO make a huge difference in tone. If you under spec that part, it will overload quicker, which will give a certain amount of tone, but which will also die quicker.
That is one reason why Fender tweeds sound so good at full volume. The thing is, Fender NEVER (at that time) thought that anyone would be foolish enough to turn it all the way up, so a lot of their early amps had output transformers that were underrated for the wattage the amp could put out.
On the other side of things, if you want a better clean tone, put in a much larger output transformer in place of the original and see what it does. The transformer will have plenty of headroom and so it' won't introduce any of it's own distortion into the sound other than it's own frequency limitations.
Gerald Weber of Kendrick amps has a series of books out that you might want to look at, he talks a LOT about all this stuff. He also understands that you're not a technician, but a guitar player, and he explains things in ways that you can understand. DVDs, too. And some amps that look and sound just amazing. Not cheap, though.
@@willmorrison1022 I have some tube audio amps too, and the better ones have big transformers all the way around, unlike guitar amps.
I had forgotten about the Weber books, I know I read the basic one years ago, maybe I'll get some more.
Thanks for the advice.
@@richardweinberger2756 He's got 5 out, now. The third one, for my money, has the best info in it, though they all seem pretty full of good stuff. I have the first, third and fourth, I keep saying I have to get the other two just to be complete. May have to, now...
In stereo amps, you want the biggest output tranny possible to keep the distortion as low as possible. In guitar amps, that is not the case. You want to balance several types of distortion in the right ratios to get the "best" sound. You have preamp, power amp, transformer and speaker distortion, and if you get them all right, you've got a beast. Get one wrong and it won't sound quite right. It's magic, I swear. Time to get the degree in magic!
Tom Morello called. He's looking for his pedal.
Brad, How can I contact you directly? I have a Marshall AT150H that has blown output transistors. They have been replaced twice. I do not want to replace them again only for them to blow one more time. Would you be interested in repairing it? Maybe it could be the subject of a YT video?
Brad, it occurred to me recently, this viral video of some crap cover band Brass Against and the Pissgate incident shown all over YT without even an age restriction disclaimer, yet they hammered you down for cussin'. Or was it really the cussin'?
The Cry Baby has a 470 connected to Q1 emitter. You wrote 470k.
Be careful changing batteries . Pulling them off by the leads without due dilligence can cost ya time money and inconvienience.
Its not rocket science......
I have a vox wa it seems to be more throaty sounding than the crybaby. Which I like better honestly.
If you inserted the proper date in the video why not the title?