Mike's love/hate relationship with PWM...
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- ** Mike sometimes get's frustrated when equipment isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing... Haha or if Mike can't remember how to make "said" equipment do what it's supposed to do is equally frustrating, but that's Mike for ya! 🤷🏻♂️🤣🤦
Mike's "love/hate" relationship with PWM systems has been on and off like a bad relationship for many years now.. 🤣🤣😬
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Thank you for the detailed explanation. It helps a city guy understand and better appreciate what you do and farmers in general. God Bless.
I’ve noticed that Mike has a funny way of waving to people from the cab, makes me chuckle, suits his personality though
Mike is my most favourite farm RUclipsr aside of welkers
@Bowhunters 🤣 I know it’s like super rapid shaking too right? With fingers slightly bent and facing the target, almost like he’s jiggling a boobie
@@tyler3148 yeah same but definitely ahead of welkers for me, closer to millennial farmer, that guy can be pretty fkn hilarious. The. There’s 10th generation dairy farmer and he’s the kind of kid you just have to like and root for
@@Mr.Wednesday. yeah you said it there man I like melenial and tenth gen dairy man too
Yer if I passed him I'd think he is trying to stop/ warn me about something
Love the extra uploads Mike! Really appreciate the effort you put into sharing this with us.
Mike we call them “speed goats” here in Colorado as well! If the meat is properly taken care of it’s the best game meat you’ll ever eat! Love the content!
I thought farming was just dropping a seed and sit back let mother nature do its thing " Sun & Rain". Chit there a whole lot more to growing a seed.Oh! and hours of work. Until I started watching Mike's videos,.Thank you, God Bless. 🙏
12:21 😂😂😂 That's why we like you Mike always raw natural material
Great Mike Mitchell Video, Spaying the night away!!! thanks for sharing
Very informative, Mike! There is probably not a perfect system for all types of spraying. Therefore you have to weigh the pros and cons for your applications and choose the one you like the best.
Hi Matt, actually there is. It's the LeapBox. Can be installed on any kind of sprayer / brand and you can spray on plant level. If a system is capable of changing its frequency, these's problems are non existent. Follow us on Linkedin or FB or visit our website www.bbleap.com for more info! Cheers!
We have a 4440 with aim command flex system also. Have you tried a dual fan nozzle? I run a 05 tee jet (brown)and I don’t have strips in my field. But my 04 regular(red) do
Glad, you made it home. Make sure you include your brother in the air tractor!! Just saying for the spraying…
I don’t think the air tractor even left the hangar this year… the drought killed most of the crops.
you can put a plastic board behind the sprayers, it will create a vortex and it will such the chemicals to the ground and it will less effected by the wind. Please listen to this advice. it is very cheap to add temporary plastic board of 10 inch to attache it. we use such 10 inch plasticboard behind the nozzles of the sprayers and works very good
im trying to follow you mike, but man, i am happy you are leading. you make it all seem easy.
Mike, why don't you do a few runs with the Deere sprayer ? Let us know what you think
We wave at everyone where I’m at in northern Michigan it’s usually 1-2 fingers from the wheel hand. Mikes wave is probably the most aggressive I’ve seen. Like Waaaaaaaaavvvvveuh.
Sounds like they need to nearly max out the pressure on the side that is pulsating very slowly so that it pretty much mists the product to avoid it from distributing so unevenly. Seems that increased drift would be preferable to over saturation under a slowly pulsating solenoid.
Still waiting on the John Deere sprayer review!
yes all makes sense mike -farming life is always a compromise
Thanks Mike! Good overview as always and a few laughs as well😁 interested in your thoughts on a dual spray line system with 2 different nozzles vs PWM
Awesome Mike, awesome video as always! In case You haven't seen the message on the tractor race videos here it goes again :D - Could You do the same thing with combines? Compare grain quality, speed, fuel usage, unloading times, etc with all major manufactuers? Would be awesome!
There are only two brands on the yard, the Fendt Ideal 9 and his fathers John Deere 690, as far as I know the only Fendt Ideal 10 is gone and the other S690 is already (going) up North, the old Massey Ferguson is no comparison.
@@ytfan3815 Well AGCO sent him the new Fendt two track to test, so why not contact Case, New Holland and Claas?
Great question! I would love too , but manufacturers do not like such things to be honest
@@mikemitchell2554 That's a shame. Better product should win, so if they do their best they shouldn't be worried :D Will we at least see the new Johnny X9?
Wow I feel like I'm working as hard as Mike keeping up with all these videos, I think I will go take a nap for both of us,.🙂
`3am here in Sweden and watching Mike
Good points there Mikey! my old 284 Hagie doesn't have the pulse system ,just a rate Raven monitor and I love it but then I'm only spraying 640 acres !
Mike, how many sprayers do you have total. I know the Deere, trident, and a few patriots and how many others?
yep mate those misses would p me off too looks terrible
Thanks for sharing
This video should have please don't wear headphones! Love your vids mike
That sprayer looks amazing 🤩
Carryover will be a HUGE problem next year with the drought this yr.
Curious though why aren’t you using Solo?
Yes they say there is “some” residual but nothing like Odyssey.
I quit Odyssey yrs ago due to growing Invigor canola on lentil ground. Don’t grow a lot of canola on lentil ground but gives me that option.
That's a great question Dave.. And I agree we are in trouble for carry over next year - tho this year was the first time we have ever seen it.
We normally grow our lentils in canola stubble, so the Odyssey helps hold back the volunteers really well.. But we might be switching next year 🤷🏻♂️🙂
Hey Mike you know what you should do now since you did a comparison to all the tractors you need to do it for the sprayer from when it's full halfway full and empty and see what's different how fast each one goes and with some slower from full to empty and halfway you should try it with the sprayers and see how this bit you know I can do with the tractor so and that'll be pretty cool
Mikes explanation of PWM is interesting. In motor controls, a PWM drive would fluctuate between a longer or shorter on-times at a set frequency that is much higher than the target motor speed, typically 14+ KHz. The way this system works, it sounds more like frequency modulation than pulse width modulation. The explanations I can come up with for this, is that a constant volume piston\diaphragm pump connected to a PWM driven motor would act like this, and/or it could be marketing BS because someone thought PWM sounded better that frequency modulation.
Spraying more at night on the other side of the pond to avoid heat . Thanks for the PWM talk I’ve bought another sprayer without it, have duo react instead so one nozzle going slow and two as you speed up.
Hi Mike, I am understanding that..
You might try angling the sprayers back a bit more which would give the pulses a bit more overlap by making each pulse cover a longer area. Esspecially effective on the bulkier spray patterns like full cone (as opposed to hollow cone), flat pattern will likely see the least improvement from a strictly geometric standpoint but will still have some benefit due to the average droplet size distribution.
This back angle usually recommended for higher travel speed anyway in order to maintain proper droplet size. (eg airplane sprayers are usually pointed near straight back to avoid fogging.)
Then again as you said a traditional pressure compensator works well enough, and a bag of quick change tips is relatively cheap so you could just swap out sizes for each basic situation
Also along with being angled back, try some lower flow tips so the PWM runs at higher rate.
I suppose the more expensive customization would be two rows of spray tips operated with half rate nozzles and control electronics that offset the PWM of each so the off of one set is the on of the other; essentially just doubling the pulse rate but doing an end run around the mechanical and hydrodynamic limits of the solenoid valve and liquid flow response times. A step further , assuming tapered spray tips with pattern overlap, would be to do the same pulse offset with every other tip along the boom, this would still have small dots of over application immediately under each nozzle, but it would be much better than solid lines of over/under application. Combine the double tip count and alternating pulses would probably provide totally even coverage by any practical measure.
This sprayer PWM has me scratching my head a bit though, because in electronics (PWM is used for voltage control) the term is "pulse width modulation" referring to the ratio of on time within each cycle from 0-100%, but the cycle frequency is held constant eg at 1000 pulses per second. What you describe is a change in frequency, which is not PWM.
I'm curious what the spray controller is really doing, both in the core range and at the upper and lower width due to mechanical solenoid limits.
Technicality of a pwm system is the frequency of pulses does not change it actually changes the duration of each pulse. So it always cycles on and off ten times every second. Just it puts out more or less product with each pulse.
I have seen pictures of checkerbording like that from other people, so it definitely can exist. In defense of a PWM system my theory is that the inside curve of a turn with a standard continuous system would be evenly over applied and the crop stunting that you observe in the following year would be even across the entire corner wouldn’t it?
Wicked vids...question: Does the farm own all the gear, attachment s machines? Looks like awesome comradeship and teamwork!
Each family member owns or leases their own equipment… and they farm together as a group
Totally understand the pulse spray explanation Mike. You are awesome. But how the heck do you put up with that fricking loud annoying hum in the cab. That’s crazy that an equipment manufacturer would release such a a noisy cab environment to farmers. You deserve better!
Its noise, it's not gonna hurt you... There is no way to avoid it all... Its not a tiny car, it's a huge machine with a large displacement engine...
@@mikeznel6048 - over long term that constant noise causes hearing degradation or even deafness.
Do you think it's because of the low rates your spraying? The lowest we spray is 15gal/acre
Are we ever going to see you drive the Johny Popper sprayer?
Same
We definitely need Mike to review that puppy 🐶
Why is the Case the only one with duals? Don't they do more damage?
it does damage but we go with flotation tires. they get stunted but those are skinny tires. you can buy (they probably have) tridekon crop savers for dedicating or fungicide application.
How many times spraying you the same field one or more times? Mike that's mine questing
Hi Mike 👋 I was thinking if case and John Deere could make a software update where you can set a set a minimum pulse per meter?
That way you could avoid the strips with weeds. I know you will do some over rating some areas
Can't you get at a crop duster plane in your fleet to get a little more even spraying, Mike? Just a little bigger one for your field sizes - like a DC10? But then you must have a bigger aerodrome or fly in chem directly from factory! Haha!
We have a Turbine spray plane yes.. We use it for fungicides and fall spraying
@@mikemitchell2554 Can your plane also lift 45 000 litres of water and also have it's own mixer onboard as the DC-10-30 firefighter, Mike? Then you can do your own chem trails at high altitude! ;D
Mike, I call it tiger stripping. The capstan folks say I'm running too big of tips. My thoughts are bordering fields with aim and switching to conventional in the field.
need to mount a gopro or something to the boom tip on a selfie stick and in slow-mo record mode make a turn
What did pulse width modulation ever do to you?
He explained it in the video
Hagie operator here. Have you ever sprayed with a Hagie?
Hi Mike you are running to much pressure when you are making those turns. Its making the solenoid close for to long. Also the right nozzle is important. For the speed you drive. I have the same system and it doesn't chop like that.
Mike owned and operated a custom spray business for years. There isn't much he doesn't know about spraying. As far as pressure goes, these machines adjust while turning and either speed up or slow down the pulses. Believe it or not, these computers are capable of doing alot more in a given time then physically possible by any person. When you have let's say 80 feet of boom and you turn left, the left side of the boom is travel less and going slower than the right side of the boom. There for, the left side of the boom is pulsing less and the right side is pulsing more. I don't think you quite understand how that works as he is doing the right thing and the machine is operating as it should be.
Stupid question from someone with no spraying experience at all: Why can’t you just raise the PWM frequency? I get the point that the valve solenoids have their limitations due to inertia of the valve plunger but can’t you raise the frequency to a point where you don’t see any lines anymore?
@@mikeznel6048 I think he understands it perfectly clear. In theory, less pressure means higher PWM duty cycle which again means more valve opening time and less visible lines. But that’s the theory, I have no experience in spraying at all I have to admit. I‘m just a part time farming electrical engineer.
Have you tested Lechler IDKT blue (double slot + air) nozzles? No pulsing miss problems for me.
is the john deere and trident is your spreaders ?
Yes I see it.
interesting info, thanks!
Couldnt the misses be from how low you guys have to spray in your area? Because you are the first one to have pointed the miss thing out
Mike I have a question, with the PWM (pulse width modulation) system if you run at or close to the max speed for your nozzle size/rate would the system not be pulsing so fast or just be consistently having the nozzles wide open so that you would minimize the amount of misses? Or could you change the nozzle size to achieve that?
Can’t you make the gps turn it around for you?
Do you need to run that sprayer at max rpm ? It’s pretty loud that way
Have you demoed a Front sprayer from CNH? the blue or the red one. I assume they are the same.
I don't think he has.
Yes both the same and the only front boom sprayer to look at is a hagie.
Quantos metros de barra??
Thanks for the videos and all the time you spend on the farm does your bother spray with airplane
Hay mike love ya vids I see Welker farms has a trident like yours and it goes 40 full I seen on there video chur chur from tauranga new Zealand
Yes, it's the new and updated one.. Which that's awesome!
Evening
In central Indiana we haul everything to the sprayers but we don't have many fields even a quarter section.
I have insomnia can I get a job?
Btw how r ur crops as of now
Mike what about a smaller orfice and higher pressure so it has to do more pulses for the speed? I realize that you make the droplets smaller, (I feel like Faucci, creeps!) Thus creating the drifting problem, but it seems like nobody knows how to make perfect farm equipment, so you kinda have to pick your battles. I would think it would be a bit hard to give up individual control, but I'm not the guy paying the bills
Yes, a smaller tip is the answer. The nozzles spend more time open and less time closed. They pulse at a consistent rate, that never changes, the thing that changes is the percent of open time. You can make a pwm sprayer perform as conventional with a tip that nearly maxes out the duty cycle at the speed you want to run. Then you get all the advantages of slowing down and maintaining perfect control. If there’s skips, the tip is too big and the pressure setting too high.
Why dont you ever run the Deere ?
Because it's my brothers and he doesn't want it on RUclips.. So we want to respect that
Mike why are the outside tries not spinning
I would like to come down there
👋
Hello Mike ben arrivato dopo 300 millias 🏁😅🤣👌🇮🇹
I wonder if I ever ate anything from your farm.
*Suprise video?*
he is doing uploads every 12 hours.
@@max-jc4wq oh
@@ATLS_gaming ya he is trying to get ride of the backlog
I thought it was Friday yesterday, I have lost all track of my days!... So THIS day will be the last day of double videos!...
@@mikemitchell2554 oh I see
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
How come you don’t have sheds for your vehicles
Because they cost alot of money. Mike has said that they trade often so the need for the machine sheds isn't a priority to them
2.
1.
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The the video
Mike, you are wrong PWM don't miss.. Someone should explain you better how this system works. If you spray at correct height you will not have misses. I could send you documents with tests done.
Regards
How come you don’t have sheds for your equipment
He said a couple video ago.
sheds are spendy and they have alot of equipment
ruclips.net/video/fVTYMoqw1fo/видео.html
don't keep stuff long enough on big farms to worry about putting everything in sheds . some stuff sure but..
@@markdiesen8206 that to
Mike you need sleep that rant couldnt be any farther from the true there is no such thing as pulse lines not possible basf will laugh your claim off the nozzles do not pulse together at the same time they are staggerd so you can not get an on off line like that from the sprayer. Keep investigating those lines get it figured out and give us the next theory.
I appreciate your input Jim, but BASF has already been down and have confirmed the chemical damage - as it very wide spread through out the country. As far as the lines, it is very possible actually.. Especially if you have the wrong caps on with the wrong duty cycle. Deere on the other hand has like twice the hertz and does pulse differently. 🙂
Glad to hear you got some satisfaction out of basf mike doesn’t happen very often keep up the good fight and good luck.
Aliens?
Wow it’s been Mike Mitchell watch a
Thon as of late! Thanks for all the videos Mike!
Interesting that Mike is considering dropping PWM in future sprayers. We bought a Case Patriot 4430 last summer, without PWM. It was one of the reasons we bought it. The added maintenance, cost, and splotchy patterns scared us away. In my opinion too much to go wrong or break when you need something to work. Spray timing can be so critical.
It is really only a matter of having an extra bag of different rate nozzles to match the required rate. The only real gain of PWM is turn compensation which may be no significant factor in many fields, and maybe if your trying to get real fancy real time variable rate to match varying weed pressure but you can still get some of that from pressure control or a simple dual-rate setup using a second row of nozzles that get turned on & off manually.
I have sort of figured it out. 640 acres is a square mile and the original surveys would have been based around that, or a half or a quarter of a square mile. I suppose that applies anywhere they used miles as a unit.
640 acres is yes, a square mile, commonly referred to as a section. Not sure about Canada, but in the States, the counties are broken down into the townships,, then sections, which are all numbered. The sections then break down into quarters, which are 160 acres. Then you obviously have the 80's and 40's.
Whats more, an acre is ten square surveyors' chains, or one chain by ten chains.
Ten surveyors chains is a furlong (furrow long) and the distance that a horses could pull a plow between breaks, a furlong is also 1/8th statute mile.
So 1/8 mile by 1/8 mile is exactly ten acres.
(A chain is 66 feet, a furlong 660 feet)
Now that 660feet is very close to 200meters so 10acres=4 hectares, or 1 hectare=2.5 acre
Since 1kg=2.2lb rates are very similar lbs/acre ~ kg/hectare (12% difference)
@@mytech6779 Thanks, but you missed Roods and Perches.
Mike, talk about your water supply, how you get enough water for four sprayers. Thanks kevin
Hi Mike I have a question you have an aircraft for spraying how does that compare to coverage and cost etc including contamination of nearby crops just curious as you have just done a good run down of ground spraying
It works great, and it has less tech tjsn any sprayer on the farm.. Haha
Learned something today about sprayers 😌
All PWM systems NEED a buffer after the switching valve, if you sprayers don't have this built-in then they are relying on the crop to buffer the pulses, which as you are showing here, is often less than ideal. Seems that more work on the design of PWM sprayers is needed.
I think you are right with your prediction from a couple of videos ago, that we will be watching harvest around Christmas time
i used to think i wasn't seeing straight but i started to notice it on all our farms as a kid i told my dad and he didn't believe me
Very interesting video. Everything is a compromise farming. Here in iowa raising corn and soybeans I was told to spray during 'banker hours' because the weeds shut down at night and don't absorb the chemicals as fast. Thanks for the videos, very educational.
That is bad advice from a botany perspective. The stomata do close at night, but those are on the underside of the leaf and don't play any role in herbicide absorption. (Stomata do effect root absorption as they increase water evaporation but we aren't talking about soil applied herbicides) Plant metabolism is based mainly on temperature and most definitely does not shut down in the dark.
Some folks aim for mid day because the plants are a bit wilted and some believe this makes them more flexible and less vulnerable breaking from equipment tires, which may be more true for some crops than others.
There may be other factors to consider regarding droplet evaporation, air flows and spray drift in night vs day but that isn't to do directly with the plant.
@@mytech6779 I do agree on temperature. Iv'e sprayed liberty when the temps were in the 60's and it was a failure. I've sprayed Dicamba in the 90's with almost instant results (now its not labeled for that high temps, a whole another issue now with vapor drift, thermal inversions )
The banker hours came from an Iowa State University weed specialist agronomist. From my experience spraying Roundup, I've sprayed a large soybean field started Mid day and finished after sunset and you could see the difference in control.
One thing when it comes to weed control is there is a lot of variables, temp, size of weeds (too small, too large), if there is a dew, variety of weeds, amount of water per acre, droplet size, Wind speed, additives (Surfactants oils etc.)
Now farmers have to have special certification to spray dicamba, 24-d mixtures on resistance soybeans with unbelievable rules on application.
I believe weed control is one of the most complicated operations of farming.
I do really enjoy Mikes Videos, Its fun to see the different farming techniques used in different parts of the Country.
@@paulanderson262 Yeah dew may be another reason. Where I am we have low humidity in the summer so dew is very light and late in the night, not near enough to dilute let alone wash the product off the leaves. In the afternoon finer drops can evaporate before contacting the plants.
Mike, stupid question from a part time farmer with no spraying expierience at all: Can’t you raise the PWM frequency? I mean, that’s what you do on every PWM system to smooth out sharp visible or audible effects (Noise).
Why you guys still running floater/ triples in crop?
@Monk Farmer I know that but they are running down more crop.
Crop is young enough that it will not be affected. Won't even see the difference, especially if they only have to do one pass
@@michaelpeterson9016 Ok I always run pizza cutters in my crop.
I used to spray vines in one job. The droplets were on the smaller size at a high spray rate to get the proper coverage. The boss couldn't see the spray unit but could see the spray cloud, that was a fun job. I used to do the spraying from about 2am til 8am and then work the normal work til 5pm. I was earning 40k/year yet taxed on 15k and not 40k was awesome the amount I was earning. Paid for a house. ;) In 2 years.
You should hire a few more people and run 12 hr shifts, I know you are stubborn, but going that long without sleep invites big mistakes. Still appreciate your videos, trying to give some possible options from a business and safety standpoint. Is that big mistake worth hiring a few people? Statistically, yes! Have a good one!
Just a question to understand it why there is a need for such long exhausting shifts, I mean - 30h in straight run seems like a lot and you are mentioning it as something "normal" not only for you but other farmers around as well - farms there are not profitable enough to employ more people? - hard to believe with all that top shelf equipment. Or maybe there is just not enough potential employees available for hire?
Great content. I learned something about those pulse modulating sprayers I didn/t know. thanks for taking the time to explain.
5:35 front wheel is dragging.😂
Hey Mike how much do you pay your formats working daytime and night time? Is it by hour or base salary
I like your long straight roads.😃
Great job explaining the pros and cons of spraying.
Maybe you need stronger coffee.
Haha.
Keep it up.
Mike I am so impressed with the advanced knowledge you have and are sharing with all of us .
I feel that the drought that you are experiencing has exasperated the results of what you are trying to accomplish. And is the reason you see the results of your pulses . As you already know no spay can replace rain.
Love your videos .
Yes that's true, especially the chemical damage.. But thank you for your kind words 🙂