Restrictions are GOOD in Pathfinder 2e (Rules Lawyer)
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- I've had players coming from D&D 5th Edition who want to homebrew Pathfinder 2e rules that cost you an action to move, raise a shield, and do other things, as well as the Multiple Attack Penalty. I've had videos about rules I think should be ignored or changed in PF2, but THESE are not some of them!
0:00 Intro
2:50 Can't break up movement
12:24 Action to Stride/Stand/Climb/Swim
15:15 Multiple Attack Penalty
17:15 Having to raise your shield
20:25 Action to Recall Knowledge
21:49 Action to Interact
30:34 Why these rules help the game
45:52 Outro
Here are two videos where that discussion came up:
"D&D RUclipsrs FRUSTRATED by the 3 Action Economy" (Mar. 14, 2023)
• D&D RUclipsrs FRUSTRAT...
"D&D RUclipsrs react to how SCARY higher-level foes are in Pathfinder 2E! Clips + post-discussion" (June 20, 2023)
• D&D RUclipsrs react to...
Sid Meier presentation on “A series of interesting decisions”:
• Sid Meier's Interestin...
Reddit post about opportunity costs in Pathfinder 2e:
/ a_terminology_most_of_...
Mark Seifter interview on the problem of being able to break up your movement in PF2 (at timestamp):
• Common Pathfinder 2e G...
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(EDIT: The Remaster allows you to swap 2 items with a single Interact action!)
-There's a number of links in the video description that should interest people!
-Don't forget the 3 action system often allows you to do MORE on your turn, while other in systems (3e, PF1, 5e, etc.), you sometimes do only ONE thing on your turn because you only 1 main action. (And "waste" your bonus action or movement because you don't have one or don't have reason to use it)
-Pathfinder 2e DOES explicitly give GMs leeway to lessen action costs sometimes, in the Gamemastery Guide under "Splitting and Combining Movement": 2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=849 It ends with: "This works only for chaining types of movement together. Doing something like Interacting to open a door or making a Strike usually arrests movement long enough that doing so in the middle of movement isn’t practical." (I would also allow, in some situations, for someone to pick up an object mid-Stride without breaking up the PC's movement.)
Funnily enough, the scenario of picking an object mid stride is something that we added quite early when we stumbled on
"This *typically* works only..." (emphasis added). Not sure if the print version is different, but AoN is quite clear. GMs can and should be reasonable with this, especially since a -2 penalty is quite steep.
I would add that a lot of green GMs that house rule away minor effects/give minor bonuses frequently invalidate skill feats or even class feats by accident. Why take the quick draw feat when you have a house rule of a free interact each turn? Why take the barbarian feat bashing charge to smash through doors as part of your movement when there is a house rule you can open doors during your movement that anybody can do?
@@mistaree8394Likely because many skill feats are content for the sake of content. Just trying to fill out things that should be possible regardless. Take bashing charge, for example. Unless you are wielding a crowbar, your barbarian is making that force open check at a net -1. (+1 from the skill feat, -2 from lack of a proper tool). This sort of pedantic sillyness does not lend itself to thinking the rules are worth looking up on the fly.
The more I watched this the less interesting the system feels. Every step you said adds depth just makes the game seem overly complicated for the sake of being complicated.
Wait they were talking about house-ruling AWAY the multiple attack penalty? That would make every boss encounter infinitely more lethal, because a boss could just stand on top of you and strike strike strike and drop most people in a turn or two. This definitely smacks of one of those "we would want this for the players, but would hate this for NPCs".
Yeah I don't think they thought that one through too hard. They just wanted to hit easier themselves and didn't think of the consequences.
-5e GM moving to pf2e currently
Boss Monster just gonna land 3 crits and drop most of the party round 1. lol.
one of the worst signs for a house rule is “this is for PCs only (without a feat or anything) and not the monsters”
Making combat a lethal and risky choice at best? Sounds like it would make players not want to just combat their way through every situation. I like it.
@@nelsonhill4625Some people enjoy a well balanced combat
Point of order: 5e yo-yo healing is mostly a symptom of 5e healing being seriously inefficient relative to your other options. The amount you can heal per round is almost always less than a frontline ally is _taking_ per round unless you're burning pretty significant resources, which makes trying to avoid KO less efficient than yo-yo. The genuinely worthwhile healing in pf2e is a significant contrast that I don't see stressed as often as it deserves.
It's the combination of healing in 5e being lackluster and knockouts having little consequence. I was more focused on the action economy costs in this vid (if I expanded more on every point my videos would be even longer!)
part of the healing problem is actually an issue of the mentality of much of the player base. They have been taught, partly by youtubers and other similar types that do things like create "character builds" who focus heavily on damage above all else and often ignore other ways to mitigate damage that make the healing much more reasonable. Thus you end up with the secondary result of the "healing yoyo" because they are only interacting with a fairly specific part of the toolset. Often with little understanding of the rest of the toolset. This is compounded even further by the fact that there are very little codified exploration type rules to help people think of things, including combat, as more than just hit the enemy, and to up that to hit the enemy harder than they hit me so that we win faster than they do.
A lot of intelligent battlefield control, specially against more dumbly and poorly controlled NPC's eliminates a fair bit of the need for healing, which lessens that substantial resource cost in many instances, and can in fact lessen the attrition race mentality, but it's based heavily on the environmental interaction which is heavily missing in the 5e ruleset.
One thing about the action economy of the PF2E ruleset is that it actually forces them to interact with combat and the environment differently and to a greater extent, even to the point of their own equipment as part of the equation to some extent.
@@Quandry1Thing is, dealing damage in 5e is always more effective than healing
If you deal a lot of damage, you end up killing the thing that damages you faster and the vast majority of the time end up with more damage mitigated than had you healed
@@xolotltolox7626 This actually isn't entirely true. it's a nice sentiment and it sounds great on surface level but the thing is it doesn't necessarily work as advertised a good portion of the time despite people trying to make it so. you wouldn't have yoyo healing be such a thing if it really worked up to the claims that it should. And more party members don't die only because DM's actively keep enemies from continuing to target them until dead. even after they bounce up a few times. You actually mitigate far more damage through things like CC than you do just engaging in DPS races except against poorly controlled npc's that DM's purposely make it so you can dps race down.
@@Quandry1 the whole pont i was making is that DPR>Healing
CC is ridiculously overpowered in 5e everyone knows that
I can believe a lvl 15 PC climbing as fast as movement speed much more than a lvl 1 PC doing that
I feel like Paizo missed an opportunity naming the Wall Jump feat as "Parkour!"
as someone who practices kendo, i can tell you that's very realistic one action to restore your grip on the weapon. You can take the hand of your sword no problem, but getting the right grip on the handle takes a good second or two, especially if you consider one action to take 2 seconds
Not even just kendo!
Happens in tennis too!
It's not even just Kendo. Think of a greatsword. You can't even hold one of those things in one hand. That sword if you let go of one hand it's going to drop to the ground.
It takes an action because it's a heavy ass sword that needs to be hoisted back up into a position where you can leverage and swing it. This ain't an anime where people swing giant swords around like they're light as a feather.
@@randomyoutubecommenterrgreatswords aren't nearly as heavy as ypu make them out to be
Especially when fighting monsters
@@randomyoutubecommenterr
Longsword's are around 1-1.5kg ( 2-3lbs)
Greatsword's are around 2-2.5kg ( 5-7lbs)
Most weapons are not that heavy, you don't need a lot of weight to have a powerful swing, you just need to hit it probably and have good edge alignment.
I've moved away from 5e in the opposite direction than Pathfinder (going to more narrative/mechanically simple games instead of more granular and tactical), but I enjoy learning more about game design and this was a fun look at the design of the 3 action system and the forces at work behind those decisions.
I think part of the issue with 5E is that it's rules lead to constant arbitrary rulings, often in ways that punish players for narrative decisions.
Honestly I would much prefer a narrative heavy game, than a 5E session that is both mechanically restrictive, and relies on DM fiat moment to moment.
Plenty of other systems handle the heavier rules or rules light better.
22:15 one really funny caveat, as far as I can tell, is crossbows. If you're holding a crossbow in one hand, and you reload it, that allows you to reset your grip to two-handing it as part of the action.
Cause otherwise, whenever you reloaded a crossbow, you'd remove one hand from it to grab a bolt, and you'd need to spend an action to re-grip it, which is very obviously not the intention.
Ah! Where is it written somewhere that you restore your grip on the crossbow at the same time?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG From Reloading (pg 279): "Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon."
@@Zedrinbot Awesome! Thanks.
yes, same for guns, otherwise the gunsligner would be absolutely useless. Its punishing enough to ahve to waste an action reloading after every shot, but if you ahd to waste 2 to regrip the weapon it would be unplayable
One of the big gripes one of my players had with pf2e was the fact that they couldn’t break up movement or be as mobile. This video really helped me find a better way to explain why the system works the way it does.
They have spoken how they want to have a “free movement action” alongside the three, so I’m glad this was explained in the video on why movement being an action matters.
If they want a free move action each turn, they might be interested in a wand of haste. Let's see if they're willing to pay an appropriate price for the power that'll give them ;)
@@chrizzlybear5565 By all means lol, I know where they’re coming from since they like making super strong builds.
I gave them a magic item to at least let them cover more ground. They’re very much somebody who prefers 5e, wanting to be strong on their own rather than strong as a collective. Too each their own and they’re still having fun regardless of their qualms :)
I gave a hombrew item, that gave a single free move action once every combat. It really altered how the rogue and the others realise how busted movment is.
@@christianlangdon3766I might have to steal that idea, at least just to show them how strong it is. However, knowing who they are as a player, I think it would just reinfornce their thinking and want that to be the norm.
As I said in another comment, they like making their characters strong on their own.
@@EquinoxDoodlesthen it’s not really a system for them tbh. Nothing wrong with it. Making a strong collective made of specialized individuals is one of the core pathfinder design principles. You either need to change the system or change their mindset, otherwise you won’t be having that much fun and find pf2e frustrating.
Limitations often contribute more towards the identity of a game than freedoms do, because limitations (even things we don't normally think of as limitations, such as "these are your attribute scores, you cannot change them on a whim") allow the player to interact with the game in a uniquely structured way that can be shared by all players. To use an example from video games, Mario's jump has limitations. It carries momentum in certain ways, it can only reach a certain height, and you have to touch the ground before jumping again. The limitations of Mario's jump is what the core of the game is built around, platforming. If you were to give Mario's jumps in a particular game the same freedom as Kirby's jumps (freely changing momentum, infinite jumps, infinite height), then the design of the game would no longer work. Platforming challenges would become trivial. And in the games where they _do_ expand Mario's jumping options (such as Sunshine or Odyssey), the level design is _also_ altered to create new challenges under a new set of restrictions.
One of the more insidious things in D&D 5e's design is that it encourages DMs to reward player creativity AND the only tool the system gives them to use is Advantage/Disadvantage. It often makes DM fiat (and the player's real-life Persuasion skill) matter much more than the PC.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG DM fiat ruled the day for 30+ years. 5th ed was designed to be a throwback. And it is.
Limitations don't contribute to, they *define* the identity of game. Every rule, system, or even description of the game world, limits the freedom of different imaginations in favor of a shared and more coherent understanding/suspension of disbelief.
A game with pure freedom is playing make-believe at the school playground.
People should use whatever rules they want, as long as they agree it helps to inspire and create a story. Systems like PF or DnD can help as a starting template with many specifics worked out that works for most people. But Fate/Fudge can work just fine, as well as any homebrew rules that the party agrees on. Whether the game becomes 'unbalanced' is something that depends on the playing group how/if they want to resolve it.
That said, I think this video is a great help to reshape the conceptions of what's possible per round from DnD5e and how to imagine your character's capabilities in PF2e
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I'm still new, what tools does pf2e offer to reward player creativity?
@@dramotarker1352 Basically none unless there's a mechanical implementation of your idea. The GM could, in theory, hand out a circumstance bonus but I think many PF2E players would object.
It's amazing how Paizo can be smart enough to know how important movement is but, still design so many APs as hallway simulators.
Different departments. The rules people do not write adventure paths.
Sounds like some managers need to thrown to the magicians coastline and fireballed till they learn better.
Bruh.
Things that should be changed, however, are both drawing and drinking potions, and drawing two weapons, being separate actions. Reducing both down to one action improves the game a lot.
Drawing 2 weapons at once has consequences for thrown weapon damage per turn, which I think is the major limitation to making it more free since PF2 game design needs ranged damage to be relatively nerfed.
First level fighter feat allows stowing 2 items and drawing 2 items all in a single action though
At my table, I usually just rule that unless in exploration mode, the players always have there weapons ready. Like before they enter a house, I assume they draw there weapons. Etc etc.
However if there just talking to an npc, they would have to draw there weapons. If they wanna attack.
This seems to be the default assumption in my (Society) play group as well. If the party is in a situation where they expect danger, they have their tools at the ready.
I one hundred percent agree with the shield. If I make a character that uses a shield I want to interact with it and make it mechanically part of the character as well as the flavour. It's such a disappointment that in 5e you equip it once and your done for twenty levels.
Yeah. We tried out PF2e last week and the fighter seemed to love the block reaction for this reason.
I honestly have liked the 'raise a shield' action since I tried out a champion in the playtest. It feels significant and getting the shield block reaction feels like a worthy tradeoff.
It feels like you can specialize in shield as central to your build rather than just an accessory that can just let you get an extra shove.
I think that's why in 5e I always took the Protection Fighting Style, I want my shields to be active items
I mean, there is a feat tree with a 10th level feat, that allows you to reduce damage with a shield for free, which I think is pretty OP, but you have to remember that this game has a lot of OP options, and if everything is OP, nothing is. But all in all, I think this is pretty OP.
Also, there is a feat which allows you to use your shield hand to interact.
@@mr.cauliflower3536 In fairness, it's not free. Spent feats are a resource.... they're not doing anything else.
The reason so many things are free Actions in 5E, is because they could not find a action _small enough_ to use as a meaningful cost.
That is why the 3-action econony is better. It gives them to option to give something a small but still meaningful cost.
It's an interesting difference some players have between players who want to remove friction as much as possible for performance's sake and those who are more systems-oriented
The only rule I've house rules is that a nights rest fully recovers HP. No more roleplaying patching people up for several hours
I mean, it effectively does once you ahve the relevant feats anyway. You can heal multiple people every 10 minutes as a ward medic with continual recovery, so you can hand wave full heals not only on a full rest, but any time you have an hour or more to rest
@@andrewdemarco3512Having to take a feat and build a character to get the same effect as the house rule which requires no investment on the players part isn't "effectively" the same.
@whiskeyhound I mean sure, but it's one of those things that every party that wants to be functional does. I was basically saying the house rule is not necessary.
@@andrewdemarco3512 That makes the house rule sound essential, especially so someone doesn't have to waste a feat and deviate from making an interesting build to play nurse after every fight.
I could see there being a fun class feat that lets you break up movement, but only the specific situation where you move to an enemy, strike them, and kill them. You can then stride for free up to the movement you hadn't used yet on the first stride. Call it something like "Murderous Momentum." It wouldn't be exploitable as a kiting tool because if the enemy is still alive, you can't use it. But it would be useful when fighting a lot of spread out weaker enemies.
There is, it's on the cavalier archetype.
There's the advancing armor rune you can get that does this.
Advancing Rune: Item 9+; Magical, Necromancy
Usage: Etched onto heavy armor; Bulk --; Price 625g
Free Action (Command), Requirements: Your last action or activity reduced an enemy to 0 Hit Points; Effect: You Stride up to 15 feet. This movement doesn't trigger reactions. You can Burrow, Climb, Fly, or Swim instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.
I been GMing PF2E about 18 months for my group. One of my players started running a campaign using PF2E. I rolled up a druid (animal order). The very first encounter I strode up to the door and readied an action close the door the moment it was opened.
The orc that went after moved up, opened the door and then had to open it again, wasting all three of its actions. The orc had to sit there while it got dismantled by our polearm fighter and our ranged Thaumaturge. The rest of the encounter was a cakewalk.
MANY DnD players I've talked to argue the potion rule saying that "Oh everybody makes it a bonus action" and it makes me confused because...
I tell them that's not RAW, but they just parrot the exact same words. Every time. Without fail.
That's why my 5e potion house rule is if you want it as a bonus action, you need to roll (and risk getting a 1 for healing, flavoured as you spilling) but if you take a full action you don't need to roll and get the dice maximum. (I think I got that from Bob World Builder)
It's the Mandela Effect for 5e!
I don't understand the problem. Everyone DOES make it a bonus action...and it's not RAW. Both statements are true...where is the argument?
@@bonzwah1Because some players say that having to spend actions to drink a potion feels restricting in PF2e and contrast it to 5e... when they're houseruling 5e and don't know it
I think the most important aspect to consider with the action restrictions is that most people who don't like them only look at how it affects them directly, when in reality everyone has to juggle with them enemies included.
Monsters tend to have higher numbers than players, so no MAP would lead to many more crits being landed on the players, they also usually have higher speeds so if they could break up movement they could likely run across a good chunk of the party with a single action while still having the ability to attack them with the remaining 2. While a dragon delivering 3 no MAP attacks while flying across the entire map for just 3 actions IS cool and definitely evokes the image of a powerful creature I wouldn't exactly say it's fun to have to deal with.
Having to interact with things separately is the only thing I have found really "problematic", moving 10ft next to a door, spending an action to open it, and another to stride through just feels terrible and me and my group came up with a homebrew activity creatively called "running interaction", for 2 actions you stride up to your movement and can make an Interact action at any point during it so long as the interaction doesn't require a check so it can be things like opening a door, pulling a lever, picking up an item or reloading a weapon (the running reload feat is a single action to do both). It makes movement in more "complex" eviroments a bit more dynamic while not really impacting the action economy in most cases since it doesn't "save" actions, and also helps with the fantasy a bit in my opinion, as with having to separate the actions I can't stop imagining someone running at full speed, stopping to very calmly pick up a potion from the table, and then proceed to go back running like crazy.
I would argue that teh "it only affects enemies" arguement only holds water when the party is in a fight that is not difficult.
If its a single difficult enemy, then it doesnt matter, because that big enemy hits you with a 2 on MAP10 anyway, critsaves against any effect you throw at it on a 2 anyway meaning you cannot reliably inflict any of the conditions on it that would be helpful. Single difficult fights are designed to be snowbally on purpose. Meaning you HAVE to throw everything at it, until it rolls a nat1 against an effect that opens a chink, then throw in everything into that opening, HOPING that you manage to inflict a debilitating condition on it before it kills the party.
If its a swarm of enemies, it wont matter if they roll 1000 dice agaisnt you or just 999.
Yeah, and important thing to do when introducing people to PF2E is to very clearly show that you're applying these things to enemies and NPCs as well. if they see that enemies need to spend an action to move to their weapons, then an action to pick up a weapon, they'll be less likely to call it bullshit because it gave them an advantage for sneaking up on the enemies.
You learn to appreciate the enemy not being able to break up movement when it comes to anything that flies which tends to have an insane fly speed (*cough* dragons *cough*)
Also for that ogre example, if it's aware Valeros has reactive strike, it could just step away instead.
MAP is one thing I think should never be changed. There's already plenty of ways to build around it and would negate a large number of feats with its removal (and make the flurry ranger obsolete as well). Also you're basically asking for every boss to crit you 3x per turn.
It also gives the dragon an interesting tactical choice: fly in and do Draconic Frenzy (3 attacks at the cost of two?), or "spring attack" but only make a single attack and get more than 100' away?
The one thing that I would make "free" (Think should be free) is interacting with the environment. I think being able to do one environmental interaction per turn for free encourages creativity on the player side and challenges me as the DM to come up with interesting, interactable battle maps. I hope that this makes battle far more dynamic and fun. Although I haven't tried it yet, it is something I am planning to implement in the next Campaign I run.
I haven't actually played in a real game yet. But I am wondering if it would work as "one free interact during any movement action", it would kind of split the difference.
This seems like a bad idea because it promotes players pausing for way too long to come up with a way to interact with the environment, since it's free.
What I do is to make explicit of the environment features (releasing a grindwheel, kicking enemies down a shaft, etc) that the PCs can take advantage of. As long as the interact cost with environment is equal to or better than doing something from their class, it's fine
Something I homeruled for awhile was a miss didn't increase the multiple attack penalty.
I changed that after realizing the martials did far too much damage over the casters.
This also feels like one of those things that would be terrifying when applied to Boss monsters. It feels like a lot more crits wouls happen as a result.
Considering there's a level 1 fighter feat to give this ability, best to not add it to everything, yeah.
At about 2:25 you deliver some very important advice. I use a similar piece of advice for writing and playing RPG's alike. Understand the rules perfectly, so you know how to break them properly.
This video was awesome and gave me a better understand the system and its balance! Thank you :)
I've been GMing for at least 15 years. I've ran multiple systems including 3 different versions of D&D. PF2E is one of the most balanced systems I've ever played, and it remains balanced even at higher levels. Changing anything should be met with serious consideration.
One great thing about the action economy is that monsters are using the same rules. Which means if you can deny them multiple actions then you just landed a MAJOR blow to the opposition.
It's why I made a grappler. He doesn't do a ton of damage. But he can deny and lock down at least two enemies at once. And when I both grapple AND trip an enemy? They MUST first try and escape my grab before they can stand up. That's two actions (minumum!) I've just taken away from them. And even if they do escape and stand, they now have a -5 to attack because an escape counts towards the multi attack penalty.
Some players are just so focused on the limitations that they can't see the benefits. It helps to realize you're contributing to a team and not trying to be built to solo everything.
Hi, I know replies to 7 month+ old comments don't usually get a response but I'm curious as I and some of my players are interested in trying PF2e. In your experience, are there situations where a martial PC that doesn't normally have a free hand should, or would prefer, to free a hand and interact with an object? I mean beyond situations like closing a door and double striding away or pulling a lever that sets off a trap on the enemy. Likewise, after attacking, should they free a hand and try to grab/grapple instead of attacking?
@@Unanimoustoo I think they technically need a free hand in order to use a potion, or to throw/catch an object (like a potion).
Dual wielding in this game isn't quite as necessary if you don't have actions/talents that specifically require it, since you can just multi-attack with the same weapon (there are other use cases, like off hand being an agile weapon, different damage type, etc). So you aren't penalized as much for just having one weapon and one hand free when it comes to offensive power. Especially if you're using that hand to grab.
Grabbing is a huge debuff to an enemy because it is now off-guard to all other party members and you've also denied it one of it's actions if it wants to try and escape the grab. On top of that, escape attempts are subject to the multi attack penalty so if it tries to escape as its first action then even if it succeeds it now has to take the MAP to its first attack that round.
It will also have a negative to any action that is a manipulate action, like casting any spell with the somatic trait (which is most of them); they have to make a flat DC 5 check or the action falls and uses up the action/spell slot.
It just all comes down to do you want to be adding more damage, defense, or utility to the fight on holding an extra weapon, wielding a shield, or keeping a hand free.
Hope that answers it. I'm about to go to sleep so I'm a bit tired. Oh, and keep in mind that attempting to grab is also subject to the MAP, but it's considered to be also having an "Agile" trait (so, -4/-8 instead of -5/-10).
As someone who has played a lot more PF2 than D&d5e, then picking up BG3, the separation of "action" and "bonus action" was as cluncky as it sounds like. Attacks are actions but some attacks are bonus actions, I still have to check which is which after 100 hours since they all change with different weapon types.
Then a handful of levels in and i start picking up extra attacks, suddenly the game feels easy.
Still a good game, but point is, I'll take the clean action mechanics and smooth progression of PF2 anyday.
I made the switch from DnD as my primary TTRPG to PF2e about 3.5 years ago. I think you're a great ambassador for the game!
I explained homebrewing rules to my buddy who was about to DM for the first time this way. This game is a building and the rules are its walls. Some walls are safe to remove and they might even make the place better but you should really understand why the walls are there and what they do before you start knocking walls out.
About deciding what is in your character's hands at the beginning of combat: I think it's worth emphasizing that Pathfinder's options give you great reasons for having lots of different things (or nothing) in your hands. The result at the table is that, when combat starts and you say "what's in your hands?" you can comfortably allow your players to declare whatever makes sense to them. In 5e, the only meaningful options for player characters' hands is "are you holding your weapon(s) or not?" and leads to either players wanting to "fudge" their option with "of course I already drew my weapons, but i didn't declare it," or, on the other side, leads to DMs trying to trap players with a gotcha of "you never SAID you were drawing your weapon, so you start combat unarmed!" In Pathfinder, you can let your players put their best foot forward because what's in their hands in a meaningful choice, not a binary "good or bad."
"Lots" of different things? I can't think of more than 4 and all of those are variable to whether or not a PC uses them: shield, weapon, healer's tools, and none. Some characters don't use *any* of those, let alone more than 1. Perhaps maybe exclusively for an alchemist or an investigator your choice will vary more? My fighter's probably just going to say their weapon, my monk is probably going to choose nothing, and my champion is probably going to say shield+weapon when I ask them all "what is in your hands."
In 5e, it doesn't matter if you have your weapons out at the start of combat. You get a free object interact action on your turn. In neither system does it matter to make a big deal of what is in your players hands when combat starts (unless you want to be an ass, in which case go for it in pathfinder).
Just to add on more detailed examples: the question of "what's in your hands?" does matter when the Fighter is carrying multiple weapons, because of the weapon traits system in Pathfinder 2e and the action cost to draw/stow weapons. The question then becomes "WHICH weapon is in your hands?" - Longspear with reach, twinned silver maces, and shortbows all have implications for tactics and positioning. (Not to mention varied resistances to damage types and weaknesses to materials, and later on different property runes placed on different magical weapons.) Shortbow can shoot flying enemies, longspear with reach can make attacks of opportunity from 10ft away as the enemy approaches, and twinned silver maces can trigger weaknesses to silver or bludgeoning damage. Not to mention certain feats only work with the appropriate weaponry (e.g. Double slice requires two one-handed weapons).
Then most spellcasters also need to decide what's in their hands at the start of combat - wands, staves and scrolls play a big part in many spellcasters' action economy and spell arsenal. Whether or not you have a Wand of Heal in your hand already determines whether or not you can cast a 3-action AOE Heal that turn, or just a 2-action single-target Heal due to the need to spend one action drawing the wand. Same with Scrolls of Magic Missile, and any other spell that has a variable action cost.
@@JohnQDarksoul Potions, scrolls, wands, staves, different types of bombs, different weapons with different traits. If they aren't buying any potions they should really start. And if you don't have a caster that's all the more reason to pick up trick magic item so they can start using scrolls and wands.
@@JohnQDarksoul Of course it varies from table to table, but if you're in a 5e game that tries to do everything RAW (not that I recommend that at all), you only get one object interaction per turn and it takes an action to don/doff a shield, which can create contentious situations. While I personally haven't struggled with issues like that in 5e games, I've had fun as a player in Pathfinder 2e by deciding which potions/scrolls/wands/staves to have in my wizard's hands at the start of combat.
I've been looking at getting into Pathfinder 2e after playing so much D&D 5e, and I've been loving your videos!
The "Lean from cover" is a good sction go take in that first scenario
Great video to share with my players
The one thing that really irritates me about action cost is changing grip. It takes an entire action to place my off hand on my weapon's hilt. Meanwhile shooting an arrow involves grabbing an arrow, pulling the arrow, drawing the bow, aiming, and firing, all as a single action.
My first character in Pathfinder is a wizard. I never played one in DnD and decided I should go with a classic for a new system. I was taken aback by Vancian casting, but I'm glad it exists. Instead of casting yet another damage spell, and contributing to the DPR race like you mentioned at around the 16 minute mark, I finally cast color spray. I was so surprised by just how debilitating the status effects in this game are. Next rest, I prepared less damage and more crowd control spells, and felt more powerful because of it. Death might be the strongest status effect, but the others really help get the enemies to reach it!
Something I’ve been mulling over which I mentioned in the associated short to this video: the homebrew I’d consider (not necessarily enact, just think about) would be letting someone exchange their reaction for certain kinds of regular actions, the kinds that would tend to be free or minor in 5eDD. Probably an interact (such as stowing an object or changing a grip), but not a strike, standard move, spell, or skill action. This keeps most of the tactical decision making, but could ease a bit of tension in a few of these ways which DD-to-PF2e players struggle with, with a big trade-off. Giving up reactive strike or shield block can be pretty costly, but maybe that’s just what you have to do.
Yeah I think this is an interesting idea and a fine thing to try out
That's an interesting idea. It might be awkward given classes (especially at low levels) have differing levels of access to reactions, though.
As interesting as that sounds, in a way that is "punishing" characters that are designed to make good use of their reaction (like but not limited to fighters) and benefit characters that are designed without good reactions and that focused their feats on actions. It incentivizes to skip feats that use your reaction.
Why shouldn't high Dexterity allow for extra actions per turn?
@@doughollingsworth6548 This silly little thing called "game balance."
I saw a lot of 5e refugees ignore secret rolls. It's such a good idea, they miss a lot
I appreciate how much you appreciate the rules. It's surprisingly common to see how many people just disregard the rules in the book for any tabletop game.
I'd also note that coming from board games (and more narrative TTRPGs) rather than D&D, but having watched enough D&D Actual Plays to be reasonably familiar with D&D, the three action economy makes a lot more sense to me. I'm used to action points from board games, where anything you want to do is going to cost you some amounts of AP, or be something you can do as much as you want because it costs 0 actions. D&D's move/action/bonus action makes a lot less intuitive sense to me, especially with the ability to split movement.
I actually forgot about the action tax for fly. Makes it even weirder why Paizo was so allergic to it for Strix.
Out of combat, there is no action tax to fly. As Strix get permanent flight sooner than any other ancestry...
I generally agree the design of pf2e is better, especially with the goal being tactical combat. But I will say my personal experience is this has led to a greater proportion of unsatisfying turns, where the players feel like they got nothing of value done. That sensation means players feel like they had less fun than they wanted and will cause some to bounce off the system. Maybe that’s okay, as the game doesn’t intent to capture the widest possible audience like 5e does, but it does mean this is likely to remain an eternal point of friction as 5e players experiment with pf2e.
Could you explain how you get a greater proportion of unsatisfying turns?
Yes, PF2 has a definite audience.
Honest questions:
1. Were these unsatisfying turns more frequent than the times in 5e one can be out of range from an enemy so that you had to Dash to go up to them? (and did their DMs enforce the Action required to Dash rule?) Did they ever hit a bump of wanting to do a Bonus Action but only had an Action, and vice versa?
2. Sometimes you make your 1 attack in 5e and you miss, while in 2e you can make 2 or more attacks. Are they okay with that?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG 1) I would say yes they were more common. Usually the dash turns are just in the first round of combat for those characters who don't have worthwhile ranged attacks. Many of the unsatisfying BG3 turns happen mid-combat, when we really wanted to be getting things done. Like one character had a scroll she wanted to use to exploit an enemy's vulnerability to fire, but realized she had to wait another round to actually use it because the spell took two actions, she had to move to get close enough, and she had to use an action to pull out the scroll. Mostly I would say item juggling has been the main culprit of unsatisfying turns - PF2E encourages you to use a bunch of interesting utility items, but then makes it difficult by taxing actions to get those items on top of the actions to activate them.
2) Well yeah. That's not really something I'd call a strength of PF2E over 5e as it seems enemies are more likely to make their saves. And while yes you can make additional attacks, MAP is pretty heavy. And of course 5e has Extra Attack and Action Surge for those who are into making attacks. I wouldn't say PF2E is weaker on this front either, the two are comparable in the situations where this leads to unsatisfying turns.
I don't really feel like I had more satisfying turns in 5e than in 2e, but it really depends on how you play your character and what rest of characters do as well.
Like, I've had lot of fun with pyromaniac druids
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I agree with GreyG that 1) Definitely those unsatisfying turns are more frequent in PF2E, but also that they became less of an issue as we leveled and picked up some mitigating feats/abilities, and also as we discarded whole-cloth some of the types of actions that fit our characters but were too painful to hammer into the 3-action rules. Also 2) in 5e your attacks are far less likely to miss horribly, as in 2e you miss ALL THE TIME (again, esp at low levels) because some idiot designer decided that you should only have a 30%-40% chance to hit something in PF2E that is supposed to be a reasonable challenge.
The action economy thing is also an interesting space to use homebrewed magic items, like a sword that has a “double strike” that lets it attack twice at the same attack bonus per action
Awesome explanation!!!
I love this stuff. Please keep making them! ❤😻 ❤
Honestly having a class feat or feat in general that lets you use 2 actions to move and strike breaking up the movement between them as you like would be a cool mechanic to have you can possibly talent into. Giving it some limitations (likely one big one being it being for melee attacks).
wanting to homebrew away MAP is just insane lol
As someone who's played mostly 3.5 but a bit of pf1e and dnd5e, you definitely have me interested in pf2e. It's funny to me how many of the things the 5e players don't like about pf2e were also true in 3.5 and things I've missed about it relative to 5e. I still will always be in the 3.5 > pf1e camp but maybe I have to look into how pf2e works.
Honestly, how slow abilities come online is one of the things I don't like about PF2E. Sure, it's more balanced at higher levels but it's at the cost of fun in the lower levels, especially given how much time you spend at lower levels in adventure paths (out of 12 adventure paths, two don't start you at level 1).
I hear there is an AP coming out that starts at Level 4 coming up?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG 4 would be an interesting starting point. I'd like to see more in the 10+ range so if it does the normal-ish 10-level thing it would get there. And it definitely skips the level 1 (and to a lesser extent 2) deadliness that is very much anti-fun for my group.
@@tonfa2 Levels 1-4 are too dangerous in PF2E.
Funny you should mention summoned creatures having all their actions, since that’s something D&D seems to be slowly inching away from. For example, Drakewarden Rangers, Battlesmith Armorers, or anyone casting one of the Tasha’s Summon spells (or not the spells... my bad) all have to use their bonus action to command their pet or summon (and only one of them), or else the creature will stay put and dodge to protect itself.
Ah! Interesting. Any new versions of the spells I mentioned in the "playtest" yet?
Tasha's summon spells don't require bonus actions to command. Probably should, but I think they think that concentration is enough of a resource cost.
@@utkarshgaur1942 my bad.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG very few new spells so far, and half of them got changed back to Status Quo, so it's up in the air.
@@thebitterfig9903 it might be worth editing your original comment to fix the mistake you made. A lot of people reading these comments might not be familiar with current DND 5e design and therefore might not spot that mistake.
Loved this video!
I like making stowing your items a free action, in order to not have to track who dropped what where.
I criticized paizo for their choices in pf2e since beginning. I really hate how stupid arms and armor work in this system. But this system is basically have strongest foundation among all popular ttrpgs. With good understanding of how action economy and character creation work you can create entirely different systems, while maintaining good balance
I am torn on it a little, because things like the healing spell you mentioned your choice is not fully use the spell slot at the cost of moving, but I am hoping to give it a full go at some point since I have only played one taster session so far.
I call 'interesting decisions' 'decision angst'. Good games have decision angst on a regular basis, but not so much that the game grows to be nothing but doubting yourself. Also, the 3 action benevolent tyranny blends well with the 4 levels of outcomes. There's much less save or suck so that spending an action that rolls as a Failure can in many cases still have some impact.
A lot of the pain points you bring up in this video are actually a great vector for binging up a question most TTRPG players should be asking themselves, which is "How simulationist do I want my game to be?". Personally, a lot of the "Benevolent Tyranny" you mention here speaks to me as "Boring Tedium", but that's because the level of simulation that PF2e provides is a little too beyond what I come to TTRPG's for. Good video
Talk about Familiars please. I'm playing Witch and can't figure out much use beyond the action economy benefit that it having independant gives, allowing it to knowledge check for me. But otherwise what can I do to make best use of my familiar. I'm Baba Yaga patron by the way if that's important, so my familiar is a magical loom and not an animal.
Also I know that Witch changes are coming but still don't quite understand how much they change things.
There's a couple really good guides if you type "guide to familiars in Pathfinder 2e"
It's something I might cover one day but I have a long queue atm!
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG ty
I don't understand why you chose "grapple" as the example for what you can do with your actions instead of attacking, since Grapple, trip, shove also have multiple attack penalty.
I think the point was that while MAP can feel bad to the PCs, ot can also be used to your advantage. If you didnt have MAP, then grapple would be weaker
Also with Assurance, you don't have to take the MAP penalty. Of course, you don't get any bonuses either, but you don't get MAP or other penalties.
@@georgeharris6851To add to this, this trick doesn't work on most creatures, but when it does its amazing. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe the best you can succeed against is certain at-level creatures with low Fortitude, but not at super low levels when monsters have more uniform stats and you don't have expert in Athletics. The Dryad is a good example, where you have to be at least level 3 with expert Athletics to use Assurance.
However, against below-level creatures, even with average Fortitude, you can attack twice (probably dropping at least 1 enemy) then Grapple automatically, where that 3rd attack would have probably not hit. Basically a free attack every turn
The main reason I understand it is twofold.
1 : you grapple to make the enemy off guard to your allies. IE the enemy has -2 to their AC until they escape grapple.
2 : something might be more important than doing damage. if the enemy is grappled they have to use an action to escape, and escaping will inflict the multiple attack penalty on the enemy. This reduces the enemies agression
So in short if you successfully grapple then you give up your damage to
reduce enemy movement
reduce enemy AC
reduce enemy accuracy
reduce enemy damage
all in all i think thats a fair trade, and being a fair trade is what makes it tactically interesting
Also, a grappled creature cannot get to the squishy casters in the back while grappled, and, as you said, being off-guard to melee and ranged martial attackers, especially those with precision damage is great, also.
For me re-gripping your 2 handed weapon seems to be the most egregious use of an action.
It would seem so! But the only way to keep it in the system without making 1-handed weapons superfluous is to make 2-handed weapons equally as effective as 1-handed ones. I think more would be lost than gained.
This one feels the worst. I fully understand that it's necessary for game balance, but this (followed by Reload) just feel so bad initially.
They feel less bad when you start rolling two or three d12s, while the one handed person is rolling three d6s.
As a gunsligner I really feel the relaod cost. One thing I don't like is how haste doesn't interact well with gun or crossbow users, as it only allows either a regular strike or a move, and gunsligners don't like making egular strikes if they can help it, as their special strikes are what make them good. I feel like reload should be added to the list of actions you can take for being hasted. @@utkarshgaur1942 I also really dislike how magic ammo (and presumably alchemical ammo, though the rules are ambigious here) require an additional interact to activate. I feel like it should be part of the reload.
@@andrewdemarco3512 Honestly, that sounds like a really cool feat for Way of the Spellshot, where when you Interact to load a piece of magical ammunition into a firearm or crossbow, you can also Activate it as well so long as it only takes one action to do so. Hell, maybe even make it a Thaumaturge feat so there's more support for ranged weapons with it. Could use a little more in my opinion.
Yes. It was not fun realizing I needed a free hand for athletics actions with a 2h weapon or I'd sacrifice an attack...
Thanks
Enemies not having AoOs is only really true at low level. In my experience, after a certain point, nearly every enemy that you really don't want to end your turn next to has AoO. So the game sets you up for failure by teaching you early on that it's safe and smart to move around, and then literally smacking you upside the head a few levels later.
Just did some sleuthing at Archives of Nethys. Here is the # of monsters with AoO at several levels, compared to the total # of monsters:
Level 1: 15/186 (8.1%)
Level 5: 11/160 (6.9%)
Level 10: 28/126 (22.2%)
Level 15: 29/98 (29.6%)
Level 20: 16/52 (30.8%)
So while it definitely becomes more frequent at higher levels, I don't think "nearly every enemy" is accurate.
Your GM could be adding them to them and you wouldn't necessarily know.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG "Nearly every enemy *that you don't want to end your turn next to*"
Obviously enemies that focus on ranged attacks/magic/stealth aren't likely to have AoO's
@@sandalfuryAh, I see. Well yeah if you're talking specifically about the "move away from a melee brute after hitting it" tactic then what you're saying makes more sense.
Yes, at higher levels you are more likely to be smacked. And you still DO want to back away (or walk past) and draw an AoO sometimes for a number of reasons. And it usually becomes an occasion where the party wants to knowingly draw it on one of their tankier characters.
Still, "punishing" people for what they learn at the early levels is... perhaps overstating it? Just as every monster isn't the same and calls for new tactics, the meta changes a bit as you level up which I think makes things more interesting. Adapt or die! And there is still plenty of movement in encounters.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I have found that a lot of my players don't move for fear of an opportunity attack. I have taken to just telling them whether or not the monster has an opportunity attack...and have occasionally homebrewed the opportunity attack feature out of particularly nasty monsters. PF2 is definitely a better tactics game than dnd 5e, but its not perfect. the way they sprinkle in opportunity attacks into monsters is definitely setting up the players to get "surprised" by opportunity attacks. I dont think "punishing" as the OP put it, is overstating it at all. I feel like the design intent is pretty clear...opportunity attacks are essentially traps, and I'm not about that as a GM. I like for my players to have as much information as possible, because players cannot make meaningful decisions without being armed with relevant information.
Woops, I have been running my game wrong. I love these videos to help dnd transplants such as myself figure out the system.
Its why i loved my leshy, he could climb in combat with ease!
Thanks for the PF 2.0 videos
And you’re super cute!
26:00 my favorite loadout is neglected once again 😢 shield and free hand
yeah, animal isntinct barb or monk are both great for this. Take combat climebr and you can always climb with a shield and still be able to fight. Also quick climb so you can climb faster
@@andrewdemarco3512 also playing a great Kholo helps
I made a set of homebrew feats that handle frustrating mechanics my players mentioned to me. They can pick one per chronicle
I haven't made it past level 4 in a game yet, but I have yet to find a consumable item that is worth the heavy two action cost (or three, if your hands are both occupied) to use in combat. Moonlit spellgun maybe? Anyone have good examples for the action cost being worth it in using a consumable, from item level 5 or below?
Edit: Definitely not minor moonlit spellgun, since it takes two actions to activate.
Consumables are hit or miss. Some you want to have in your hand at the start, or apply beforehand. Cat's Eye Elixir is excellent and helps in many situations.
I just realised how busted haste is. You can be a hasted spellcaster, stride out of cover, use your two action spell, stride back into cover. And the enemy has no counterplay, apart from using their aoe spells.
I tremble thinking you can have a martial shooting from behind the cover, and when the enemy approach, they just drop their bow and grab their melee weapon and start fighting them in melee.
This comp has no counterplay when on their hometurf, unless you can lob things over the cover.
Now I realised you should be able to lob things over cover, using undetected rules, but with some added penalty.
Granted I've never actually played Pathfinder, but I am interested in trying it. That said, the main thing I think I'd have a problem with is just how overly crunchy all these rules make DMing and play. I think Pathfinder could qualify as the "objectively better designed and more thought out game", but that doesn't mean it's more fun. And getting bogged down in specifics and rule calls is, in my experience, a major enjoyment killer.
I can agree that not splitting up your movement is good- it means you have to be more tactically-minded. A Spring Attack feat could still be good imo, as a 2 action action. I think to an extend I might allow someone to do it anyways though- stepping to a door, opening it, stepping forwards sounds like a dumb turn.
TIL that PF2E allows you to suplex a train.
I'd love to see a video from you about HOW to memorize all the relevant rules for this game. Like climbing only 5ft per action? I didn't know that. Not sharing a language for intimidating nets a -4 penalty? Didn't know that either. I figure there are a LOT of rules like them that pop up all the time that I'm just missing, and I want to not spend more time looking up rules than playing, so I do my best to just memorize every rule.
My melee barbarian in 5e moves often, it is very handy to move, hit an enemy and continue towards the enemy spellcaster or boss. Also moving away from multiattacking enemies is often smart. You should never just stand and hit an enemy. Take AoOs move around change the field and confuse your DM
It is worth noting that the game mastery guide (p14) has instructions for combining movement with other things. While it suggests restricting this to just mixing movement types, there is no strong reason to do so, as the -2 penalty imposed can easily be applied to attacks or anything else. The fact that a PC must stop and carefully reach out to open a batwing door instead of just shouldering through it is simply silly. Instead, apply that -2 penalty to trying to open the door. Normal doors open with low DCs (like 0-5 range), but having the occasional door that is barred from the other side is enough to create interesting choices here. For the batwing door, let them simply treat it as an extra 5' of movement, but doing so requires moving boldly through it. If they want to risk finding something unfortunate on the other side, again that gives meaningful choice without hammering on the verisimilitude of the system.
After getting through the whole video I'm more interested in playing PF2e rules as intended
I'd love to hear your take on healing and resting. The group I have is struggling with the very slow rate of healing even on long rest. When the campaign creates a sense of urgency, they're having trouble spending hours on medicine checks and days on long rest.
Maybe not a fully satisfactory answer, but if you don't have Continual Recovery yet, there are focus spells like goodberry and lay on hands that make out-of-combat healing go much faster.
At Level 1, PF2 makes an uneasy compromise between gritty/attrition play from previous editions, and the more balanced more-4e-like gameplay one sees after the first few levels.
Our campaigns in PF2E have always benefited from having a character specialize in medicine and it's associated line of feats. Very useful both in and out of combat once specialized for health recovery without expending spell slots or a character build.
My take is that the system encourages players to invest in skills/skill feats and abilities to overcome those limitations but at the cost of other options. With a few skill feats a PC can have medicine do a high amount of guaranteed healing on multiple people every few minutes but it means they focused on being the party medic. There are also, of course, many spells and items that offer near instant healing but at the cost if limited resources.
The Devs seem to be adding more reusable healing options so players at least have more options for how they fill the "patch everyone to near full after the encounter" role.
@@timothyfarrell7913 We've started on this route. More accurately the other three players were SO averse to the slow pace and didn't talk to eachother such that all 3 have Continual recovery now (-_-)
I want to note that my GM's generally remove the "drop everything if knocked unconscious" thing.
Loosing a action to stand up (possibly eating a Reactive Strike doing so) and the Wounded condition is already punishing enough. It deters "JoJo healing" perfectly fine.
No need to make it 3 actions to get back up and ready to fight. Even if I still tend to have free-hand weapons as backups.
There could be a feat that lets you brak up your movement
There are feats that exist that effectively give you more "Strides/Steps" . Skirmish Strike and Spring Attack are 2 I know of.
The only hombrew i currently have in my games that mess with the action econmey is first draw, where enemies and the players for the first turn dont need to use actions to draw their primary weapons and equipment.
Those who get a quickdraw function can do so at every turn. Which i also counted the alchemist quick lobber as this. Which made the player who was endlessly frustrated at alchemist despite the fantasy it never worked like it should have felt. It also makes ambushes less brutal as the players ambushed a bucnh of gaurds who had their weapons sheathed and they all died before they could even do anything becouse while only geting 1 attack through.
This might be something that's missinterpreted, but your houserule negates the power of ambushes in addition to gunslingers draw and quick draw. An adventuring party will be prepared and walk with something drawn already, they don't need to stow unless they need their hands free for something else.
@laki7480 True ambushes do suffer, but before, they weren't exactly fun either getting ambushed while most of the party was climbing wasn't fun. Nor was the party easily winning every ambush. Now it's still an advantage, just one that is less lopsided. Ambushes I found very quickly instill bad player behavior. Like one of my players became to paranoid about a grp of npcs ambushing them that he attacked a random the group so they would be on equal terms vs being ambushed. Plus the slow play etc. It wasn't fun and my sessions are only able to go for 3 hrs. So streamlining and reducing slow play is a must for anything to get done.
"It's all about those interesting decisions, yo!" Monarch's Factory Where has she been?
Chesterton's Fence
Ah didn't hear this term before! Definitely will save it!
Yeah, I sleep in my armor. Also I am holding my sword. Can I lean against something so that I am standing when I sleep?
I guess just wrt object interactions I'd be pretty happy if it were spend 1 action to get 2 object interactions during your turn, that being said it's a verisimilitude problem vs. a mechanical problem.
The multiple attack penalty is not a rule to homebrew - it makes the three action economy viable. My barbarian (Helgar) in my last session struck her foe one, then twice even with the minus 5 action penalty. This made me feel over-confident so for her third action, she tried to trip her foe. Because the trip action has the 'attack trait', she was at a minus 10 penalty. I rolled low and because of the scaling +/- 10 rules for upgrading / downgrading a result, her failure was a critical failure and she fell over (her foe tripped her). This to me felt actually satisfying - it was a big risk going for a third 'attack' action. The multiple attack penalty is a great rule and in my view shouldn't be tinkered with. However, having said all that, I do miss the D&D4e days when my Barbarian, at level 1, could attack all adjacent foes with an Encounter power.
28:00 that took me out lmao
Waiving the various hand economy makes me pretty upset. It breaks the balance between weapons and held items and free hand.
It's just players wanting their cake and eating it too.
Why do you care what home groups do in their free time?
Because fuck em
New PF5E GM here. I've been doing SO MANY things wrong!
You know, I would like to be able to summon Troop versions of creatures at really high levels. For some games, it might not be thematically appropriate, but in others, it would fit super well. Plus, I really don't think it would break anything. I might be wrong, though.
I can get behind most of what you're saying. I DO like PF2e better than 5e and the way it works and all that whatnot... Especially the fact that all DC's are on a sliding scale due to circumstance bonuses/penalties... That being said, I DID give my two catfolk players a proper climb speed equal to their stride speed, and the one strix (Angel, whatever character) does have a fly speed equal to their land speed. Giant wings must be good for something, after all. She's not a chicken or an ostrich. She DOES have to use an action every turn to stay aloft, otherwise she just falls out of the sky. Whether it's to hover in place or actually move, a minimum of one action MUST be used to stay in the air.
A number of the interact actions still bother me, an example is changing grip because martial characters already struggle with versatility. So I ignore this because there are already feats that require you to wield certain types of weapons so two-handed weapons don't invalidate other builds.
For other interactions I let it be a free action with the stipulation you can only use an interact action as a free action once per turn.
On your interact action but I want to say that pulling out and drinking a potion should be one interaction if anything.
On one side, yes, on the other it invalidates all of the feats you can get to pull out items instantly. I usually allow my players to have things on their clothing (for example, they can have potions tied to their belt), but they can’t be anything else than light items and count as two light items. Also, max amount of them is your max bulk divided by 4 rounded down.
There's something about pathfinder that I don't know how to explain, but the more I read, the more I watch, the more I see the system as something easy to play. I'm in a 5e campaign, and we're at lv5 and I look at the monk I rode and honestly, I don't think it's easy... It's strange, so much so that I'm the only one in the campaign who thinks and feels this way
Like, i knoe the interact action free or coupled with movement is a common hombrew, but who is asking to hombrew out MAP? literally half of the game features for marials interacts with it in a way?
Even casters interact with it a lot
If I had to guess, people felt they were penalised for failing to hit with a weaker follow up. I suspect what they probably wanted was the MAP only taking affect if you hit. But I think they'd change their mind after a few boss fights with that change!
The feats are a plus and minus for me at the same time. At level 15 being able to finally climb a wall without too much of a risk? I've never played a character to level 15 in the last 20 years. But in our games climbing is very often a thing. I get the feeling that you need feats for almost anything fun in PF2 and that means I can only be really good at one or two things. Now, you pointed out that that is an incentive to keep on playing to higher levels. But that's where I disagree. Higher levels mean more absurd monsters with even more absurd abilities. And that has always been a big turn-off to me. I admit I like games with as little magic and "flashy effects" as possible (even in computer games - please no lightning and sparks when you hit with a sword). And PF2 seems to go in exactly that direction.
I know I seem like one of those grumpy guys that try to nag about PF2 (and sometimes I admittedly am). But having watched a few PF2 games I must say that the combat breaks my immersion with its many little details. It becomes a number game that tome tastes like a math lesson (not "Mathfinder", adding a few numbers is not that hard) with decisions being based on cold analytics. I've never come across a combat situation that had an organic feel to it. "I kick his leg out from underneath him, jump on his back and slash his throat" becomes a "Hm, I try to push him to the ground and he has a saving throw and I need to see if I pass an acrobatics roll to land on his back while he has the prone condition. Now I can make a melee attack but since that is my second attack I have -5 plus (I make this up as I am not really too firm with PF2 rule) +2 for attacking him from above(or maybe he is just flat footed?)... That "rules talk" just completely reminds me of all those strategy games I've played back in the 80s... It's like eating bread that has become stale, dry and... uninspiring?
I'm not saying that dnd5e does it much better, but at least the "rules talk" is a lot lighter.
Maybe I should play more PF2 to get a little more fluent with combat rules but I really fear I'll be bored quicker than being fascinated. And my friends really cannot be bothered to even look closer at PF2 "If I wanted to play a game like that; I'd have played DND 4e but that game looked so incredibly boring to me I never did. So why try PF2?" So we mostly play very different games with he occasional dnd5 sprinkled in there....
There are a few minor things I'd change the action cost of just on the basis of verisimilitude.
As far as versimilitude goes, there are higher level feats that allow combining actions that reflect your ability. At level one you should be slower.
@@duncbot9000 I have no problem with that. But I don't mean in terms of speed.
I mean things like the Ready action. The cost is far too high and the description is too vague. Does spending 2 actions to prepare mean I can move into position? If so, then how far can I move? If I'm readying an attack and the actual attack logically takes up my reaction, then what are the two actions for? What if I change my mind and want to cancel the readied action to use a different reaction?
Similarly Aid should be more variable in what it costs depending on what you're going to do. I can easily see situations where it could either be used as an action, a reaction, or both. Why would it cost a reaction to help my friend jump higher if all I'm doing it getting down on all fours so he can use me as a step? Does moving count as part of the preparing action?
Raise a Shield makes more sense if it's treated like a stance. Why would you automatically stop fighting defensively?
Even the Dismiss action is a little iffy to me. Why does it cost an action to stop sustaining an effect? You don't lose an action when an effect naturally ends. It's not like you're shutting down a computer. You just stop casting the spell, using the magic item, or focusing on one of your targets.
@@TrueKoalaKnight there is a stance which keeps your shield raised.
@@matthewparker9276 There are several feats that do that actually, but they are all mid to high level feats.
So let me clarify that one a bit.
I mean that Raise a Shield should be a basic stance that anyone can use as part of their basic training.
It would be more limited than the feats, but not require the constant investment of actions to keep it going if you want to focus on defense.
Instead of Raise a Shield lasting until you next turn, it lasts until the next time you use an action with the attack or concentrate trait and it can be cancelled if taking a critical hit or become affected by conditions that would interfere with your ability to defend yourself.
It isn't a huge difference, it might not necessarily even be worth the added complexity, but it does cover niche situations where it doesn't make sense to drop your guard automatically.
In PF2 can the bad guys prepare or hold action until the PC comes out of cover to attack with their own missile weapon?
No, they can still lose initiative. Although they remain hidden until they attack. But they can be detected. There are no "surprise rounds" although a GM could change this.
So how much does this slow down the combat?
Same as D&D. The players who are engaged and know their characters know what they're doing pretty quick. The players who aren't paying attention or know their characters take a lot longer.
I really like the rules system of 2e, but I don’t understand the item interaction penalty when it comes to strength based weapons. If you want to grapple and use items is the best idea to use a 1handed strength weapon in one hand and no other weapons? I can’t think of a historical or fantasy example of a character ever doing this. It would make more sense to have versatile weapons like there are in 5e and drop the action penalty for them.
Some weapons have the grapple trait which allows you to grapple directly with the weapon itself and drop it to avoid getting the worst possible result, and there's also the two-hand trait which is basically the same as 5e's versatile, growing the damage die to what it lists on the trait when you wield it two-handed.
I think it's intended as a balance between 2 handed weapons, dual weilding, and sword and board. All 3 need to spend an action to get back into "fighting stance" after using a gand to retrieve something else. 2 handed weapon users already have an edge with their larger damage dice. Keeping the styles' "hand economy" in line seems deliberate
I think the most frustrating thing about MAP is that it almost entirely removes the Second or Third Attack as a VIABLE option for most encounters that matter (if you are not a Fighter).
Most Enemies have enough AC, that without Buffs/Debuffs its about a 50/50 if the FIRST attack hits. With MAP, the second is almost guaranteed to miss and the third one is a guaranteed miss. Even with Buffs/Debuffs you can at best make the second Attack a 40/60, and thats if the Buffs and Debuffs land at all.
I wish you could get some leeway for the second attack, without having to use one of those munchkin agile weapons that reduce the MAP by -1.
I get it that the Fighters Gimmick is the higher chances to land attacks and criticals, but my 5th Level Swashbuckler is nigh useless if I dont win the lottery with chain-panache-criticals. (Even with those I barely keep up with the other Players who are playing meme characters)
I agree that most things costing an action makes for better tactics and stuff... I mostly love this video ❤
But, I do think opening a (not too heavy) door costing part of a move action makes sense.
And the idea of putting your hand back on your already-held twohanded weapon is absurd; sure, I get it; twohanders are strong, but free handers get all the dueling parry feats, twohanders can't be used with shields, and... just watch a longsword fight in real life / online; I've seen sword swings start one-handed, course-correct with a second hand joining in mid-swing... all under 2 seconds, and not making an opening for the opponent. Making that cost an action is just punishing people for using big weapons, which I think is the wrong way to balance a game.
The D12 die is expensive indeed...
And I also should point out that parrying with two handed swords are much better than with one-handed, I really hate dueling stuff in pf2e because it's really stupid
Only thing I will always question is extra actions spent when picking up weapons after being knocked unconscious. You got knocked out so that is already bad. Someone healed you. Now you have to get up which triggers attacks of opportunity. And now you start doing sit-ups to pick up your gear... 1 at the time. You are fighting for your life and not doing a workout. Lay on the ground and tell me are incapable of picking an item with you as you are getting up. Even more, it would make more sense that when you are battered, you will use said weapon to assist yourself in getting up.