Here in Germany research is mainly done at institutes like the Frauenhofer Institute. And the Problem why there are so few tech giants in Europe is more down to the somewhat hostile environment for startups. So Europe is basically already separating education and research which is the reason why our universities are so low on these rankings but are still very good in their domain of teaching students.
@Clarissa Valerie Well at least in Germany the taxes are pretty high and there is a lot of bureaucracy. And the mindset is different, people with good ideas often don't think about how they could make money from it. In general people are more risk-averse here. So start-ups often have a hard time getting money in addition to the bureaucratic hurdels.
@Clarissa Valerie If uber would have been founded in Germany potential Investors would have asked for a detailed analysis whether every aspect of the business would be 100 percent legal. Then they would want to see a plan to make money within two years. If they were finally convinced, they would pay for test run in a single city. The American way (move fast, expand aggressive, solve the legal issues when they come up and think about how to make money when you are big enough) doesn't fit the German mindset.
Another factor is that U.S. public research universities heavily court international students - some of whom come from wealthier families and can pay full price, but attend on student visas with the expectation that they will pursue careers in their home countries (not in the United States) . . . so paper authorship and prestigious grants (the social clout of research) disproportionately goes to domestic American students while in some cases, international students do more of the unglamorous work.
Rather than "doing more of the unglamorous work" it's the brightest students (and staff) plucked from India and China and beyond that are the reason US universities are ranked so highly. Edit: granted you did say public research universities. The most prestigious ones are private I suppose.
The real bad thing about American universities. The limit of how much they can charge You pay an extra $1,000 for a bowling alley and diversity classes rather than the Computer engineering you went for
I went to a state school in the US for my bachelor's in history. I was told any degree will do 🤦 and you'll work doing your passion. Foolish I know, but I worked a full time job, while going to school full time and joined the army reserve to pay for it. Took me 5 years to do it debt free, but I made it. Today I have a home in California and a good job, but my degree had little to do with it. I got my job from work experience and military background with little to do with my degree...it may have helped a bit, but it was not worth it. The path to the middle class is not rooted in college these days...Bernie means well, but more people with more degrees devalues the degree and I have to say the degree didn't mean much in the first place. Unless you're pursuing a STEM field, you're quite literally wasting time. My advice: work hard and go after certificates for whatever field you're interested in. Don't fund these diploma mill state schools and "prestigious" universities. And be realistic about paying tuition... If you don't have a plan to pay up front or you aren't going to be a doctor or something capable of paying off debt later, don't even go for it. You are responsible for your own debt, not society. I made a mistake going for my bachelor's, but I at least had the foresight and work ethic to pay my bill up front.
In countries like Germany for example there are dedicated research institutes which are mostly independent from any university. For example the Frauenhofer Institutes, the Max Planck Institutes or the German Aerospace Center (DLR) etc. who all are exclusively dedicated to research and have Institutes all over Germany.
"For example the Frauenhofer Institutes, the Max Planck Institutes or the German Aerospace Center (DLR) etc." But that reminded me that the DLR, well, that would be what, NASA in the US? A space program that partners with different clients and pushes for certain research on things they consider helpful? And we have plenty of both corporate and other research partnerships that are outside universities over here in the US. The caveat is that yes, some of even these, in fact, end up partnering with certain universities, but they are not actually the university itself. So it seems that the US also has non-university research centers, and has a higher education system that is designed to push out a bunch of new minds right into an immediate research field that is built in to the universities themselves. And make some great innovation in a field? Tenure is easier, to help push that research even further at the university, with more funding for it as you crossed that hurtle. Whereas that is separate at best in Europe, and operates at a less ubiquitous level from a research point of view.
@@adrianbundy3249 The DLR is not just an Aerospace research center, it also researches transportation and energy. Also the entire manned space program and large parts of the unmanned space program of Germany are integrated into the European Space Agency (ESA) which is more of a counterpart to NASA then the DLR. There is certainly University research in Germany, especially in the best ones on their field, but the Universities are more focused on teaching. Often an institute of Frauenhofer or DLR, will stand right next to a University. The best U.S. universities are better then the best German ones, but an average German Uni is better than an average U.S. uni.
Having gone through the US college system in one of the better schools in my field I can say that the education quality is very mixed, especially for undergrads. Many of the professors are horrible teachers, the only reason why the graduates do well is because they were top students to start with. The best a degree from a top university can buy you is a good starting job. If you can’t get that with your degree, it is not worth the debt at all.
I was supposed to be an international student from Jamaica to the US, however I decided just to attend school in Jamaica for this main reason: I AM NOT GONNA PAY OVER $40,000 USD FOR A DAMN OVERSEAS SCHOOL WHERE I CAN PAY LESS THAN $1500 USD IN MY OWN COUNTRY. That's a huge gap right there.
I’d say that another big factor is universities using Grant Money they get from the government to add stuff that “Looks Pretty” but doesn’t have any educational value. For instance, I highly doubt that a Rock Climbing wall helps students with their classes. Same goes for Luxury Booths in the football stadium and many other facilities that “Look nice”. But Universities add them anyways to attract students. And guess who has to pay for the maintenance of these facilities... Yep, the Students. So they simply increase tuition fees to make up for it.
Oh, you'd be surprised. There are degrees, that have stuff you wouldn't believe, but is not just necessary for that field, is actually in demand, out there. For instance, Mendel University has this bachelor's program called "forestry". There is a subject called "work with chainsaw". I'm not kidding. Precisely this program would actually benefit from a rock climbing wall, because of teaching safe approach to trees, which need to be fell, but are in very inaccessible locations, as well as safe use of climbing equipment. Hazardous logging is very expensive stuff and the last thing you need, is for your crew to not know, how to use a climbing harness. And there are other programs, which don't have this direct use case, but would benefit. The same gear is used by Wireless Internet Service Providers (WISPs) for safety purposes, when installing WiFi dishes in high places (on factory chimneys mostly). So applied informatics would have use for that same wall. Another field would be sample collecting or deployment of monitoring stations (eg. research itself) for pretty much the same reasons. Don't underestimate expenses you can't fathom to understand.
I think the problem with Universities is their main revenue stream is attracting teenagers who are offered massive loans & promised, (not in a legally enforceable way), that they'll make such a fortune later that they'll not even notice the loan.
"Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone; All centuries but this, and every country but his own" Not going to lie. As an American I was very concerned about student debt. We always hear how "we are saddling our future under a burden they will never escape from" however I never really appreciated the flip side of that and how it is this model that not only gets us the best universities in the world but allows us to be on the edge of pretty much every new technology imaginable. After a lot of thought I have to agree that college is not for everyone but at the same time the stigma of not going to college can be pretty steep. That's why I think what should be done is 1 year of college which the government pays for/helps subsidize followed by 1 mandatory year of apprenticeship. Basically for one yeah you can be an apprentice/intern to literally any job to give you a chance to see what that trade is like and maybe even learn that college is not for you and after that you can either return to college for 3 years or continue your apprenticeship. While I do agree that having a college degree is important I believe we as a society have overemphasized the importance of it and that we should be offering more opportunities to find our futures without the massive student debt.
The worst thing of it all is that a lot of student loans can't be forgiven. This means if someone can't pay the interest on their loans they can't declare bankruptcy and may even get prison time if they don't pay up.
@Done Busy "the vast majority of people that can't pay off their debt now, would never have been given the loan in the first place" aka they wouldn't have been able to access higher education...
@Done Busy In the UK if you never earn any money you never pay back your loan, and you never pay more than you can afford, the repayment is capped. Plus if you wait long enough it just goes away. That's the government for you. In Europe it's still fucking free. Sucks to be you, dude.
Australian student loans are interest free , and paid back through tax ...... thank god I’m an Australian. Every Australian resident is eligible too regardless of intelligence
You should've mentioned how much of the cost is because of useless levels of administrators in US universities that don't do research, and don't teach, they just suck $ out of the system.
One point you didn't mention is in Europe regulates entry into University with test scores, while America doesn't. Instead it pretty much lets any idiot to go to college, just a lower tiered school. This has the unfortunate effect that lots of poor quality students go into debt for degrees that are never completed and lots of good students get degrees that are pretty useless. In my life, I've seen a lot of really smart, college-decreed receptionists and baristas.
I don't disagree, but I would add many US students choose fields of study that are either highly competitive after graduation or the jobs are pretty limited like in art history or archeological research. There are many good paying "dirty" jobs in the US that go unfulfilled. These include plumbers, utility line, and construction. They are vital jobs to society that can be learned at trade schools and community colleges for a fraction of what it cost to go to universities. But there is a stigma against these jobs because they do not sound glamorous.
And remember the BS courses them selves! Like it or not, a course need's to have a clear cut and TRUE road to either employment or research. Stuff like women studies don't have either, regardless of what liberal arts colleges say.
@@looseycanon idk. Women's studies might be useful if a student is studying to be an author, social worker, advertising/marketing psychologist, or research journalist. But I do agree that this and classes like it are very limited in their usefulness after graduation.
@@timmeyer9191 In that case, why not go and study psychology, marketing, journalism... go directly for the more specific field in a better established study program?
a lot of why ppl drops out of college their first few years is because they're forced to take the same high school classes they just took in high school instead of letting students jump right into the core classes they're signing up for, i was one of the ones scratching my head, why did i go to high school if i have to take these classes over again, got bored with the classes and didn't take them seriously, so i just studied what i wanted on the side while making average grades in my classes in my opinion, i think the entire education system needs re-structured. high school classes should be treated like intro classes for college, and college classes should have 3 phases, phase one is introduction to your degree program that teaches the basics of your field, phase two are your core classes where you learn the information you need to learn to move on to your advanced classes, and phase 3 is where you learn the advanced stuff that lands you into your masters and Ph.Ds i mean, this bullshit where you have classes that doesn't belong in your career field is just money grabs, just imagine how much cheaper degree programs could be if we cut out the bullshit classes and reduce the number of classes required to get degrees in the first place, the way i see it, a masters should only cost you at a max of $23,000, not $50,000-$130,000 a lot of these costs are driven by military service programs that used to offer $50,000 if you served your full 8 years, then you got basic college training for free while in the service on top of that, so now, college has taken advantage of that hiked the price up where they only want ppl in the service so they can pocket free money
No sense making speech/communications mandatory in college after taking them in high school. I had to take it in senior year. Colleges must think undergrads are dumb or trying to rip them off with repetitive courses.
Im from Brazil and I see similar problems in colleges here and also in education as a whole...it's imcomprehensible how the people that work with education simply don't care / can't see the really big problems concearning the way the education system is structured
Yes lets pay slightly less for the first two years of a four year college, then transfer to a four year college and retake most of those classes because they don't transfer.
@@logananderson7881 That is what screwed me over. My first semester was a refresher semester. Other than that I think starting at a two-year was a good choice. I only had to take 3 classes.
I'm in Slovenia, my college was free and in addition I got about 150€ per month from the state as a reward for not dropping out. So instead of student debt i graduated with student savings 👍
You forgot about how the USA has been divesting from universities since Regan. Over half of the tuition increases are for university administrators to help fundraise to stay competitive. Since every university, even state universities are doing this, they have to spend more and more money to fight for the crumbs of the Ivey leagues investors. We spend money on sports arenas and auditoriums to make investors happy, while neglecting the actual reason people need to go university, education. The USA just needs a department of research and department of recreation, so universities can just be schools.
Can you guys make a video about the possibility of the independence of Cape Town in South Africa? I've only learned about it recently but it seems like they're getting more and more traction and it sounds feasible for independence in legal terms
I've been following you guys for a few years now and you inspired me to study in the field of International Relations. Thank you so much for showing the true magnificence of politics
One detail the program did not exploited enough, is the growing bureaucracy from any fashionable interest in the media. Some have up to 7 race, gender, trans-gender, hyper-race, or whatever fraction in of the society becomes fancy. With all its diversity, the human society does not need 11 Directors for every single segment contained within.
What about the Canadian model? For Canadians and reaidents, the colleges there are much more expensive than they are in Europe, but much cheaper than in the US. A nominal college would have tuitions fees price tag at an arbitrary 20k USD per year, but the state would be paying a big deal of that for the citizens and residents. This allows for private in universities to exist and charge well, but the tuition fees wouldn't be too painful for for the students.
@@FelixBat I think the smart thing to do now especially as an American is to go to Europe for your degrees. U could study to even the phd level and beyond for free after wish u can return to the USA if you want.
Some points that you forgot to mention most of international students are on scholarship and grants. Also the fact that college sports has much to do in terms of increasing tuitions. If you look at the highest paid state employee in most states it would be a coach of a varsity football or basketball team.
Seriously why? Why is American college sports so insane, there is nothing like it in the U.K. I just imagine it’s cause most still can’t drink, so have to do activities on campus more
@@chrissmith3587 tbh, I can't compare my education here in 🇺🇲 to your education but yeah extra curricular activities are so important here but most people certainly drink, frat/sorority parties are pretty hardcore
In Australia my daughter just got her first HECS-HELP loan account summary. 1 year = $10,000 AUD. Ouch!! The only good thing I can say is that these loans are financed by the Australian government and only become payable when you are earning a wage (as a small % of that wage). If you never earn enough through your working life to pay off the loan the loan gets written off.
Well its usually college dropout from Harward and such - addmitance to these schools usually takes either big pile of money, or skill that would be graduate level of common university. Its not exactly comparable.
These are usually brilliant individuals, who were brilliant enough to easily enter prestigious colleges, who drop out to pursue an activity with much greater economic opportunity than spending that time and effort on finishing college. These are not individuals who dropped out because they struggled academically or financially.
Good one! Glad to finally see a fellow American agreee... we're a rare breed. I'm working on some 'trumpers' out in flyover country *cough* hell on earth *cough* that beg to differ. If you wanna make things right, shoot me a message!
Important to understand, elite research in many European countries is done at public institutes associated but not part of universities and therefore don't show in rankings. Germany for example has the Max-Plank-Society which at least when I checked a few years back ranked ABOVE Harvard in terms of publications and patents.
Well... some of my friends went to Europe to take advantage of the system. Where they don't milk you from education, the cost of livinh sure is high in europe. So... it is still contributinf to the economy, just not from basic human necessities
@@Dominus_Potatus it depends where. But for example in Germany the cost of living is way cheaper than in the US but the salaries are also relatively high. But yeah, if you wanna live in Paris or London you might have a hard time.
Have a gander at the Aussie model. It's essentially an Income Share Agreement paid by the Uni and the Government. You don't start paying anything until you start earning over $50k. It starts at 1% of your income pa and increases as you earn. I think max is 10% over $100k. You don't even notice the deductions from your pay
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As someone who finished one bachelor in Linguistics in Brazil, and is currently failing to get a second in Computer Science in Germany, even though here the university is "free" I still struggle quite a lot to pay the semester fees (every 6 months I have a month with double expenses, but visa limitations impede me from earning enough for that), all the while in Brazil I have never ever needed to pay anything, plus could still lived confortably while working 6 hours a day the entire week. Case in point, in Germany the course is "full time" (a class in the morning and another near the evening, impeding me from finding a good job in the small town I live in), while in Brazil it was only during the morning, afternoon, or evening, depending on the bachelor. Here teachers also have a lot of freedoms how to manage their courses and can get away with not offering any classes during the pandemic, while also failing most of the class in the finals. In contrast, in Brazil the only exam I've seen being remade (for failing more than 20% of the class), was reviewed by the course's counsil, while in Germany you have to make a petition with the entire student body to have something similar happen.
The universities in Brazil are technically free but difficult entrance exams mean in practice that, for the most part, only wealthy people can afford them because exam preparation tuition is costly. Semester fees in Germany are only 200 Euros per semester and often include free local public transport.
The US is an example of a conundrum where it is the wealthiest country in the world, but at the same time, the poorest population live worse than third world countries. It is mind boggling that people cant call an ambulance in fear of the extortionate bills and students wont be able to meet their potential because higher education is built to benefit the rich from every angle.
@@funveeable They are obese because they can’t afford healty food, so they eat cheap junk food, and lives in places who are really car dependant. Also in Iran people have cars and smartphones, but they are not obese
You forgot to mention the generally different K-12 system, which is extremely important in a discussion of university costs. European countries, at least to the best of my knowledge, in general tend to offer two different career tracks into which students are segregated during their K-12 education. One track being toward university, for those deemed intellectually capable, and the other being for trade/technical schools for those that are believed to be better suited for these roles. In the US every single high school student is encouraged, and outright told to, attend university because that is believed to be the only path to success. Trade and technical schools aren’t even considered, and are simply thought to be for rejects. This artificially spikes demand for university education in the US while, conversely, lowering it in Europe. The European model is clearly superior, because most people genuinely do not need university education, and America is severely lacking in trade/technical workers.
it varies from country to country, but i'd characterise it more that vocational education is seen as just as valuable as higher academic education in those countries, and students choose where they want to go, rather than it being 2 separate streams, at least I've never heard of students being put into a separate track in any european country
I attended engineering school in the mid 70's. Our annual tuition was a bit over $5k. My starting salary when I graduated was a bit over $20k. So, my starting salary was about 4 times my annual tuition. The same school has a 2022 tuition of about $80k. But graduates today, while certainly well paid, do not get 4*$80k = $320k starting salaries. When I wander around my old school's campus, I see buildings that are way fancier than when I was there... Three-story atriums, a gorgeous athletic center with dozens of exercise machines, etc. When I was there in the 70's, my department's building had been built during WW II in a hurry and was 30 years old and pretty run down. What passed for an athletic center was a dump, we had free-weights and the exercise mats were worn out with horsehair coming out of cracks in the plastic covering. Also, in those days, professors were paid less than their industry counterparts with similar qualifications. Afterall, they got the summer off, they got to go on sabbatical every few years, etc. Now, professors are treated like rockstars. They are paid as much, or more, than their industry counterparts... And are free to have ownership and management roles in private companies (That was forbidden back in the day.) And yet, for all the expensive fancy buildings and rockstar professors, I don't think the students today are getting a better education than we did back in the 70's. But, of course, universities never compete on price and students keep applying and, somehow, coming up with the money for tuition. It seems unsustainable but it also seems there is no elasticity in the demand.
If you look at the leaders in almost all commonwealth countries there educated in elite British schools/universities. So elite British schools/universities simply have much more funding since the elite of 54 different countries go there. That’s why Oxford is either 1st or 2nd depending on the year.
I have studied chemistry in a major european city. Tuition fees were low, everybody was looking educated students but many profs were not eager to educate. To them, it was something like a punishment that kept them away from research. There was plenty of despotism, abuse and insanity. The farest excursion I ever attended while I was at this university was to two day trip a steelmill located at the other end of my country. My mental health declined and I was struggling the first years after graduation. Moreover, I drifted from chemistry as I couldn´t get a job. The state should control universities more to ensure that only people who are able to and who want it, are allowed to teach.
Canada is very expensive too but we DON'T forgive the debt and we don't have the population base to make our universities thrive as much as the USA... I spent five years in post-secondary school and it hasn't helped me one bit, every job I've ever had I could have gotten without the college on my resumé, I wish I had have traveled Europe or Asia with the time and money instead.
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My mbbs fees in India : 100$/year And my college is in top 5 clg in our country Had I taken scholarship given by Central govt. I would be earning from my college.😂😂 They were giving about 200$/year because our fees is already very low.
A few items to correct. 1. In the U.S. what your degree is in carries much more weight than what school you attended too. Only at the top Ivy League level does that really matter. Your Collegiate GPA and your degree are overall much more important. More prestigious schools have internships which allow better access to certain higher paying jobs, but what your majoring in significantly dictates this. 2. The top colleges are usually specialists in high demand careers so as result their graduates are more likely to get those high demand jobs. A few items to discuss. 1. American Schools have become EXTREMELY opportunistic and basically want to use the government as a blank check the same way the military industrial complex currently uses the government. This is their end game. As result they love unlimited federal loans as that means they can essentially generate a blank check. Also by duping young adults who don't know any better they can take advantage of them getting them locked into predatory loans. As you stated the Federal loans being distributed so easily is what inflates the cost of education. 2. The entire public education from 5-18 years old pushes the propaganda that everyone should go to a 4 year university and that if you don't you're stupid, or mentally incompetent. This in turn creates high demand. There are a great many students that have no business going to 4 year universities and would be better suited learning a trade or going to community college. 3. Public universities have made it difficult for people to even get their foot in the work field, as most places require a college degree. Many places generally use this as a place holder and the significance of that degree is in many places negligible, as most colleges teach theoretical education while careers employ practical education. 4. Propaganda creating the unrealistic ideal that any college degree will generate good money is pushed like wildfire by the education system. Colleges are notorious as if the revealed the truth it would damage enrollment and certain non-profitable majors would vanish entirely. Essentially many universities prey un brainwashed, unsuspecting kids. Possible Solutions. 1. Public School teachers and other people who work in government positions should have their student debt forgiven if they agree to work in the government position for 4 years. 2. Stop pushing college on everyone while they're children. Instead inform them of profitable high demand technical trades skills and let the students decide. Stop creating the toxic atmosphere that someone who picks up a trade is stupid. 3. Government should be encouraging less student loans but more scholarships and grants. 4. Government should be willing to forgive student debt if college students secure degrees in areas where there's a national shortage in critically important industries. For example we have a nursing and physician shortage, and this could be remedied by allowing those graduates in those fields to have their student debt paid off if after the get their degree they work for 4 years in the field. 5. Utilizing the internet and the "free education" to lower costs. Technology has made learning and higher quality education extremely affordable. Many industries should focus more on career oriented certificates as an alternative to expensive education.
Universities in America (I don't know if it's different elsewhere. if you went to a university outside America, please share, I want to hear your experience). Don't do a good job at preparing you for working in the real world. I got 2 degrees from a decently prestigious business school, however, that didn't really propel my career. Networking helped me land my first two real jobs. At my most recent job I was giving the task of organizing and constructing a new IT department in our company (we exclusively outsourced everything until then). We didn't know anyone who could do database administration so we put out a job posting. We got 9 replies in 3 days. We decided to interview them all and it became obvious that we could really connect with only 3 of them. 1 had an associates degree, 1 had a bachelor's from someplace I can't remember, but the third guy was about to graduate from Cornell with a degree in database management. We decided to give them a second interview and during the interview, we'll administer a fairly because coding question. The two guys from the regular schools thought it was fun. The ivy league dude.... He didn't recognize it at first, started sweating, and wasn't able to solve it at all. I'm sure Cornell has some great IT professors, however, they obviously didn't really connect with this guy. It was kind of embarrassing. He was still a nice guy overall. We went with the guy who had the bachelor degree from one of our local Ohio schools. Se schools are working on getting students more working experience whole they're still there, but there is still a long way to go before those schools come close to the worth we have to spend on them.
Even so your Can't go to universities means Americans can go to community college which is good here in india if you go to a average college most of them are theoretical orientated and 75 percentage attendance.
A voucher system would be the best. You choose the univeristy and the state pays exactly what is needed. Loans create debt and "free education'' is not in fact free, the state takes more money than needed and it makes you think it's free. There is nothing free. There is only taxation.
American here, we get 2 free years of college if we live in a civilized state like California. And we even have programs that pay for our bachelors as well if we transfer from community college maintain our gpa. I’m about to complete my finance degree without getting any student loans.
Nothing wrong with student debt , if u want to be an engineer or a dr , u can afford to pay back your student loans . Here in Australia, you only pay back your student loan if you gain a job paying higher than the adverage salary
A quick look online shows two of the top three universities in the world are European, Oxford at one, and Cambridge at three. In Dubai the most prestigious school is the British school, the same in Abu Dhabi where the top school is British. There are also Australian and Canadian educational establishments there, too. The common factor is the English language, not some exclusive US element, excellent though I am sure that the American system is.
Worst part is universities are charging more in tuition while simultaneously keeping their instructors on adjunct status so they can't achieve tenure. I know university professors that have to bartend during the summers to pay their bills.
@@roscaeusebiu3142 Good one! Glad to finally see a fellow American agreee... we're a rare breed. I'm working on some 'trumpers' out in flyover country cough hell on earth cough that beg to differ. If you wanna make things right, shoot me a message!
Since I (and maybe you) went to Uni in the UK, prices have sky rocketed. The once free UK model has adopted the US system and is even more expensive. 9000 pounds per year - flat fee, no matter how good/bad uni is - plus living costs. Average UK graduate leaves owing around 35,000 pounds (about USD50,000) to be paid over 30 years before it is written off. There are special conditions attached to rate of payment vs income, but it's still a hell of a lot!
I'm honestly fed up with people misrepresenting how the tuition fees system works here and trying to claim that we all leave in debt so i'll just apologise in advance for this rant TLDR: it's not real debt since we repay based only on earnings not amount borrowed, it's just a graduate tax in disguise because taxes are unpopular the UK model is nothing like the US system, it's a de facto graduate tax (especially with PAYE meaning it's just taken alongside all the other taxes), since repayments are exclusively based on earnings (9% of what you earn above a the repayment threshold, so if you earn £1000 more than the threshold, it's £90 a year, if it's below that you don't pay anything at all), the vast majority of graduates never even pay off the principle of the debt, and the government knows that and get's the money through other taxes like regular income tax and sales taxes, as well as the increased productivity of a more educated workforce. I have a 'debt' of more than 50k and i've never paid anything back because the repayment threshold is now 27k, i'm now going back to uni to do a PGCE (teacher training) and that's another ~20k 'debt' because I get max maintenance loan, and it won't change the amount I pay back because to repay just my first degree, my earnings would need to be ~70k on average for the next 30 years, because after that it's just written off. My dad had to postpone going to uni until after his brother graduated because their parents (who were pretty well off by the way, one was a highly skilled engineer and the other a highly qualified nurse, both earning very good money for the time) couldn't afford to support both of them at the same time even with the grants they could get and if they both had part-time jobs, whereas when I went to uni, I could support myself almost entirely off my maintenance loan and the bursaries I got from the uni (all together they were about 10-12k per year, or about what my mum was earning at the time), and I wasn't even that frugal and I still have savings from then more than a year after i got my last payment. the thing that everyone arguing for the return of free education in the UK forgets is that since the introduction of tuition fees and the current loans system, the biggest beneficiaries have been people from disadvantaged backgrounds like minorities and the number of people who are the first in their family to get a degree have soared, these are the very people that are to supposedly benefit from making it free. this is because when they're free, total university places are inevitably going to be limited (because you'll never get what is basically a blank cheque to pass parliament, no matter which party is in charge), which means that the people with the best grades get them, which will always favour rich, educated families since they can afford extra tuition, new resources, they have more stable home lives and live in more affluent areas with better schools, they have the time to help their kids with school etc. etc. the US system is rubbish, I mean they had to make a law that said you couldn't clear out student debt by declaring bankruptcy, it's the only type of debt that works like that, it's insane. the UK system is essentially just subsidised tuition like you see in other european countries, except that rather than paying a small amount up front and the rest being paid in general taxation, it's nothing up front but you also have to pay a small extra tax if you get a good job (which you probably needed a degree to get). and since it's not 'free' on paper it's able to get broad support in parliament without needing to limit the number of places
@@TauGDS But can you get a mortgage on a house when you're 25 despite having dropped out after 2 years? I did when it was till free. The current system favours the already wealthy and stops people who lack confidence - maybe due to mental health issues - form taking a risk at uni when the consequences of failure would be disastrous.
@@DarylBaines what consequences? If you aren't earning you aren't liable to pay anything, did you even read what I said? And house prices are an entirely different issue so I don't know why you're bringing that in like it's an argument
@@TauGDS If you already have a huge debt, it is very difficult to get a mortgage until that debt is paid. If someone never earns enough to pay off the debt, then it still exist until that person is into their 50s, by which time they are too old for the bank to give them a mortgage of more than 10 years - which would be far too high in repayments. So people tend to focus on subjects which have high earning potential. And yes, I did read all of your post. It is a fact that fewer people today take Arts and Humanities because of fear of endless debt. This has greatly harmed the cultural diversity of the UK. More people used to take a chance on fringe subjects and some succeeded, people tend to do that less now. Among my friends there are people who are professional musicians or make TV documentaries about archelogy based on taking a chance to do something they were passionate about, rather than Business Studies ro Engineering.
@@DarylBaines student loan debt doesn't affect your credit score, it doesn't prevent you from getting any other loans a mate of mine got a mortgage straight out of uni with just as much student debt as me (it was in Newcastle so he could actually afford it on his own), yes arts and humanities degrees don't get you a good job, that's been the case as long as modern universities have existed. Name me one professional musician that has ever gotten their career from a music degree, they get there from playing music because it's purely a vocation with very little academia involved , same reason we don't see welding degrees
Regarding the rankings, if you look at the ranking of degrees (such as bester master in finance or in mathematics ) you will find much more European universities
Met a guy in the Navy who claimed he had a gig, when he got out, loading bales of cocaine on vessels in a Colombian mangrove. He said he was wholly confident he could, easily, bank-roll his way through 4+ years at the University of his choice. ¡Gracias a Dios por los consumidores estadounidenses de cocaína!
Actually, i cannot talk about all european universities, but in germany Universities do research. However, the research facilities are not tied to the Universities themselves but instead operate as independent entities with a different funding system. This is why even our research-strong universities rank low - because their research facilities are not part of the university.
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Something surprised they didn't touch on was how those student loans don't act like regular loans. You pretty much can't default on those loans no matter what. My aunt is having her wages garnered because she refused to pay back her loans after attempting to file for bankruptcy. Since those loans are backed by the federal government, the schools will be paid no matter what. If the schools had to eat those loans people fail to pay back. They may be more inclined to reduce tuition. However, I we'll probably come up with some other convoluted way to "solve" this problem. "modern problems require modern solutions".
Maybe it makes more sense to be a grad student at a prestigious university, than an undergrad. So that you participate in research, and maybe you go on to start a company. (Unless you're interested in networking with other bright students as an undergraduate.) I've taken or started a few of the undergraduate MIT and Yale courses available on RUclips. The professors are names you know (Gensler, Schiller,...). The lectures are well thought out, presented well. But from what I've seen you don't learn any more then you would at a state university. The teachers at a state university and branch campuses, whether they be researchers or not, teach the courses just as well. You're not missing out.
In Hungary the goverment limiting the tuition free spaces so much. You have to be an excelent student in high school to have a chance and pass several high level subjects at the final exam of high school. If you want to get your diploma you have to take at least a mid level english exam which most student can't pass. And not to mention, most people who finished their studies can't get a job. You have to pay for your studies but the tax, accomodation, inflation, overall prices are so high where people have to choose between go to work and drop out, or student loan.
It seems to me that the US education and healthcare systems operate on a fundamentally different premise to most other western countries. The fact is they are, first and foremost businesses designed to produce a profit/high paying jobs- with education ( or healthcare) a by-product, not as their main reason for existence.
The only way to lower the cost of university is to make them irrelevant. Remember, most people go to university as a means to an end. That is, to gain access to high paying jobs and in general, to earn more money than just the minimum wage. But what happens if you cut out the middle-man? What happens if people can gain access to a high level of income without having to go to university? University would have to cut fees to attract people. But studying still requires time. Time that people could be spent making money. So University would have to lower fees even more to get people to switch from spending their time making money to spending their time studying instead. But at that point, would people ever give up their source of income, even if it's temporary just so they can get a degree? What would be the point of a degree anymore? Of course, some career paths still require a degree like Medicine so for these types of jobs, the cost for these degrees would still be high. But then again, would people enter into these types of career if they can earn more money in a different career and with less effort required?
The universities of old Europe used to be more honest about the privileges that went with wealth. Once the nobility decided that it would be better to be able to read, write and count than to leave all that to the churchmen (who had somehow ended up owning a quarter of the land) they received special consideration. At Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin, sons of the nobility and royal family paid 4 times the normal fees. In return, they had no need to attend lectures or take exams and were awarded an MA after two years. But few stayed that long, and they would rarely go into business or public administration. They concentrated on having a good time away from their parents. "Gentlemen" who paid twice the fee could avoid college but not university exams, and got their BA in 3 instead of 4 years but still had to wait another 3 years for the MA exam. Boys who had gone to Eton or Winchester had exclusive right of admission to King's College or New College and were also exempt from university exams. At the other end, clever but poor kids like Isaac Newton had to do menial tasks around the college and had their fees paid for them. All these groups were easily distinguishable by different quality gowns and headgear, much as we can today by designer clothes and sports cars. Once oral exams (in Latin) gave way to written papers, there was a thriving trade by the 18th century in writing MD and probably other theses for students who could afford to buy them ready made. These official privileges faded out in the UK over the late 18th and early 19th centuries, but the rich can still somehow sail through. In mainland Europe the French revolution and Napoleon's conquests swept away these overt relics of the "ancien regime," but the US has covertly retained them.
I don't agree with the premise that American universities are better than, say, German universities. Those rankings are politics and the prestige comes with it, not with the quality of education.
I would argue that even European universities are a waste of money when you consider the fact that Apprenticeships exist. I work in software development and got there through an apprenticeship. If it wasn't due to the idiots in HR wanting a degree I wouldn't have wasted my time getting a rag of paper from University doing a course that barely related to anything I was doing in industry never mind being outdated and offering nothing in terms of "learning". I've seen many graduates in other fields transfer into software pathways through work place schemes and in house training that I see no reason for software to be a university pathway. If anything, you go to university to learn the theory of working, not how to do an actual job.
The UK seems to be a hybrid approach. We still have some of the best ranked universities, decent teaching, a cap on what universities can charge (~£9k) and a PAYE repayment model (~9% of earnings over £20k). The one crap thing is the interest rates on these loans (~6%) makes them rise faster than the average graduate can repay effectively turning them into a graduate tax. We have also not generated companies alike Apple or google (maybe ARM?) yet.
the startup thing is just about the venture capital setup in silicone valley, there's plenty of massive british companies e.g. unilever (well it's british-dutch but still), but also generally these massive companies don't actually make up large amounts of the economy and are more of a soft power thing, this is an old statistic so grain of salt but around 2/3rds of the uk gdp is by small and medium sized companies, large ones employ a lot of people and make a lot of money, but for ever one of them there's hundreds if not thousands of smaller companies
These days most people leave university more stupid than they went in. School leavers are better off going straight into a job and learning on the job.
My firm (one of the Big 4) pays for full-time graduate programs. It’s a competitive program where one applies and is selected for. I’m planning to take advantage of it if I’m accepted to a top 5 business school. I paid for my undergrad at UMD with mostly scholarships and $2000 out of pocket working as server at Red Lobster. There are ways to get educated without getting into debt. If you are getting into too much debt for a college degree which will not justify itself... a college education might not be for you.
frankly, in terms of the research alone, they are worth the price tag in a national sense. though what I would suggest is to stop telling every kid to go to a four year university, and instead place more importance on two year tech schools or community colleges and having those be covered by the state the same way k-12 is
I think it was something with legal changed enacted in 80s which allowed them to skyrocket. Other reason is American exceptionalism and surprising lack of common sense on part of to-be students - people taking equivalent of mortage(!) to study not medicine, engineering but gender studies, journalism or underwater basket weaving and being surprised, that they are not in demand after graduation. Add to this flatlining demand and wages afterward....and on the other hand politicization of education.
All the Universities you mentioned are in England, while universities here are cheaper than the US, they aren’t exactly affordable. Tuition fees have more than tripled in England since 2012 as the government raised the threshold from £3000 to £9000 and then again to £9250. A lot of the top Universities here are probably running the US model at this point.
While researchers may make a lot, it's worth noting that higher academia is a super exploitative industry in the US. Coast to coast stories of folks given full professor level workloads hired as adjuncts with class by class contracts that pay out minimum wage (or less) across hours of work performed. Grad students who teach often can apply for food stamps. They can get away with it due to the outrageous amount of people trying to work those jobs each year. Its fucking insane
many us states waive tuition fees to state universities if you excel on standardized tests. tuition is free for intelligent americans but everyone has equal opportunity to try if they have money in their pocket. for those who maybe didn't do well in college or on tests the community college system is great. in massachusetts anyone who earns an associates degree at a community college is automatically accepted to the state University systems and continues to pay tuition at the community college rate which is next to nothing. i graduated at the top of my class from umass Amherst at age 30 going the community college route. no sympathy for those with debt who needed to live on a college campus for 4 years.
This is a good video that explains the topic well. It covers the difference between instruction-oriented and research-oriented, and other US-specific reasons for the cost. The only thing left out was the insane ratio of support staff to productive staff in the US, but that's just one of many causes so the video is still good :) However, I don't think it's a good idea to compare prices in the US and Spain. Not many people realize how much richer Americans are to Spaniards. By any measure (GDP, post-tax income, per-capita wealth, etc.), Americans are on average just over twice as rich as Spaniards. That's already an enormous difference. However, it goes further than that: All of the top US universities are located in rich states, which are about 30% richer than the US average. In Spain, only Madrid and the Basque Country has that ratio, in other words the wealth difference between Connecticut and Navarre is even greater than between the US and Spain, and come out to more like 2.5x. This is given that the costs of living in the US is only about 30% higher than in Spain, including in many rich states (maybe not in San Francisco). In other words, if an American from Connecticut makes $5000/mo and spends $2600 on living, a Navarrese in the same situation would be making $2000/mo and spending $2000/mo on living; so the American wouldn't be 2.5x richer, but many many times richer (in this case infinitely, but in practice probably something like 5x-10x, after all necessary expenses). This is obviously a simplified model and life in Spain isn't that bad (nor is it that great in the US), but it's not far from reality. Due to high wages, low taxes, geographical inequality, and geopolitican factors, Americans in richer states have the highest purchasing power anywhere in the world, more or less. The only non-microstate in Europe that can compare is perhaps Switzerland. Comparing prices with Spain, with much much lower purchasing power, is just not meaningful. By the way, hybrid models of research-instruction exist in some countries. Israel is a decent example, with a few research universities that are ranked fairly highly in all these comparisons, and dozens of private colleges that do little to no research, plus the Open University. This way Israel has one of the highest college gratuation rates in the world, but at the same time a lot of world-leading research. Unlike in the US though, the expensive tuition is actually paid in the study-oriented colleges: around $8,000/year. In the state-owned research universities, tuition is closer to $3,000/year. This is usually fair-the research universities are far more prestigious, but their instruction is usually theoretical, because the professors only care about research and the state-employed support staff can't be fired and cares little about students' well-being. In private colleges the focus is on the student and practical skills, because they want to attract more people. On the other hand, some private colleges are less professional and have a very low academic bar at best, and complete scams at worst, so a good bet is to study in one of the large established ones. The Open University is somewhere in the middle, and attracts far more students than any other university or college in the country.
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The answer is more alternatives to traditional brick and mortar universities … more technical institutes, vocation and certification programs , as well as more online education platforms , and finally remove caps to the founding of more colleges. More choices lead to a more competitive market which will force traditional schools to compete with lower tuition costs.
America needs to stop spending billions defending Europe. Where does most of the medical and pharmaceutical R&D come from? America. America spends trillions footing the bill for defense and healthcare innovation where the rest of the world benefits. I love how they act so superior with their “free” health and education on the backs of America.
US STEM degrees have the professors instructing on what they are researching. Relevant and timely learning. If you are in liberal arts, you're a battery.
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The military does a lot of research into various projects. A person can get some hands on practical training, and they can also earn some funds to further that education. The only downside is they have to obey orders for a number of years.
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That's not necessarily a bad thing, going through the suck helps let the soldier narrow down what tasks are useful and what's BS (even if they say all of it is).
Well, well, well. If the internet didn't provide some lies and twisted stuff for me today. You were right to point out that this ranking is made in the USA so of course the US universities in in the top. Guess,what universities are in the top in the French ranking? But that's not the only nonsensical thing about the ranking. First of all, being cited itself is utterly meaningless. Many researchers only publish papers in order to be able to show that they have published papers. It's not about quality, it's about quantity. Why? That's how they get funding. And also recognition among those that don't understand the matter. Being cited alone, by itself is meaningless. Furthermore you said yourself: "Measuring the quality of teachers' teaching is difficult. What we can measure is an individual quality as researchers." Wasn't it about teaching just a second ago? Why are we measuring researching now? Is researching the same as teaching? Can we conclude from researching qualities to teaching qualities? Why are apples and pears mixed to together? In order to create confusing? On top of that not all countries have their research facilities in universities. In Germany for example there are institutions like the Robert-Koch-Institute which do almost exclusively research. You know why? Because universities are supposed to focus on teaching. If a system is set up to separate education and research in that way then you can't compare it to another system which puts everything together. And even if you did then you need to compare what this is actually about (teaching) and not something else. In conclusion: Another one of Simon's "America is great" videos. Factoids and the creation of confusion by deflecting and connecting topics that don't have anything to do with each other.
You forgot to mention how American universities splurge on frivolous projects. The best example you should have mentioned was Cooper Union that offered free college to its students. because the university built a building and shelled a lot of debt, the university started charging tuition.
Universities can try and justify however they want. Here’s how it really is. In many universities, the household family of full time employees is eligible for a decent percent off their tuition for undergrad. In my university, it’s 75%. So if my parent worked there, where we would be paying 16k/yr, we’re paying 4k/yr. Freshman year, I met the school’s president, and asked about the costs before being told 4k is the break even. If they charged every student $4,000usd/yr, everything would still run the same; there’d just be less profit to expand on infrastructure so quickly, like sports infrastructure or new class buildings. So, that’s why.
Well according to this video, if research is what drives technological advancements, and most research comes from universities, and funding for those research comes from university students, then Corporations benefit from universities more than the students themselves.
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There are all kinds of patents being registerd by the professors of such universities(some of which are so minor that one can say that they came up woth that idea themselves ), by doimg so they get the citations, devoted research papers etc, but that does not mean that all of them are practical, they exist just to boost those numbers.
The first dimension of this discussion has to do with what people can do on their own. How much could a young person learn from the Internet via their cell phone, particularly when universities offer on-line course plans? This didn't exist 50 years ago. The second dimension has to do with the baggage that comes with a US education. Increasingly there is an element of political correctness and 'things that simply aren't talked about'. See if anyone can find an American university that teaches military history. The English Classics are composed by 'dead white males' - this is out. American history is being revised with a focus on women, the Black experience, Latino influences, etc. Some of this is definitely necessary and overdue. However, if it comes with the suppression of the accomplishments of people that were, incidentally, slaveholders, or who ran Native Americans off their land, then we may miss things that are relevant to structure of the US as it is today. A lot of US research is second-guessed by the academic establishment. Read up on 'Two Dangerous Tribes' to get an idea of what this means. The third dimension has to do with the perverse incentives of Federal Government money. The GI Bill (for the WW II veterans) paid for university education. The US economy was the only one left standing after WW II - Japan, Germany, the UK, and Italy were left in ruins. Thus people were left to believe that the university education is what created the vast employment opportunities Americans enjoyed up to the beginning of the 1970's. Those in unionized manufacturing jobs certainly lost out from the 1970's onwards. The US was creating a highly technical workforce, with a particular emphasis on computing, which shifted the 'middle class' into technical trades. Teachers, truck drivers, and warehouse workers drifted into the 'lower middle class' end of the prosperity spectrum. Government money has allowed a large number of people to enter the university system that don't belong there. One point of a university education was 'self examination' - challenging one's old dearly held assumptions. Some fraction of the student body now are trying to mandate some version of truth - without paying much attention to what it is within them that shouts down competing and unpopular viewpoints. The fourth dimension has to do with American culture. There is a serious attempt to make the American university education diverse and egalitarian. Many European and Asian universities operate within some sort of caste system - the children of certain families are allowed to go to the most prestigious schools, everyone else has to attend 'lower ranked' universities. Admission in some universities requires obedience to some state doctrine, as one might find in Iran or China. The US is presumably 'color blind' although this isn't so evident in practice. An American researcher can come to unpopular or politically unpalatable conclusions - in other countries 'incorrect' conclusions would be suppressed. Researchers don't only come to the US for the money, sometimes they need, in particular, the freedom to counter the conventional wisdom.
It's all well and good to fund research but if you can't teach people how to do the job then what's the point? Also love how you missed out on British Universities like Oxford and Cambridge. One of the most widely used Covid-19 shots was Oxford's Astrazeneca which is being made at cost so that more have access to it. That is an achievement in and of itself.
My problem is cost of tuition, and the fraternity/witchcraft system. Too many universities want "Scorpion", "Big Bang Theory" people dictating who can get in..Holding back some people's only way out of poverty and homelessness for families and women in wedlock situations, using techniques,similar to Nazism and The S.S., I never was a fan. If a christian or jew or desiring to reconcil with those congregations these committees continually break The First Amendment by voting and tag lining what one's religion is, which is hersay, plus, even if one tries to make amends or atone, by stocking former populars, athletes, and jocks and bullies, it is also a form of lying to religious institutions, as well as oppressive, suppression, and repression stereotyping of non - dorks, geeks, and nerds by pop culture social tropes.
Here in Germany research is mainly done at institutes like the Frauenhofer Institute. And the Problem why there are so few tech giants in Europe is more down to the somewhat hostile environment for startups. So Europe is basically already separating education and research which is the reason why our universities are so low on these rankings but are still very good in their domain of teaching students.
@Clarissa Valerie high taxes.
@Clarissa Valerie Well at least in Germany the taxes are pretty high and there is a lot of bureaucracy. And the mindset is different, people with good ideas often don't think about how they could make money from it. In general people are more risk-averse here. So start-ups often have a hard time getting money in addition to the bureaucratic hurdels.
@Clarissa Valerie If uber would have been founded in Germany potential Investors would have asked for a detailed analysis whether every aspect of the business would be 100 percent legal. Then they would want to see a plan to make money within two years. If they were finally convinced, they would pay for test run in a single city. The American way (move fast, expand aggressive, solve the legal issues when they come up and think about how to make money when you are big enough) doesn't fit the German mindset.
The British have strong universities though
@Clarissa Valerie High taxes, strong regulation, heavy bureaucracy and a culture that somewhat vilifies strong ambition and immense wealth
Another factor is that U.S. public research universities heavily court international students - some of whom come from wealthier families and can pay full price, but attend on student visas with the expectation that they will pursue careers in their home countries (not in the United States) . . . so paper authorship and prestigious grants (the social clout of research) disproportionately goes to domestic American students while in some cases, international students do more of the unglamorous work.
Whoah! Unexpected to see you here.
hold up! i'mma read that again in your voice.
Rather than "doing more of the unglamorous work" it's the brightest students (and staff) plucked from India and China and beyond that are the reason US universities are ranked so highly.
Edit: granted you did say public research universities. The most prestigious ones are private I suppose.
@@shanehummusthesuccessgps1973 Nice try fake account. Don't get phished guys.
Something very similar happens at Oxford and Cambridge in the UK
The real bad thing about American universities.
The limit of how much they can charge
You pay an extra $1,000 for a bowling alley and diversity classes rather than the Computer engineering you went for
Ugh 🤦♂️
Pro tip: let the us do the research and just hack it!
Pro tip: it’s the U.S., not the us
@@plinyelder8156 Ik, too lazy to write it.
¹
China is already doing that.🙃🙃
I went to a state school in the US for my bachelor's in history. I was told any degree will do 🤦 and you'll work doing your passion. Foolish I know, but I worked a full time job, while going to school full time and joined the army reserve to pay for it. Took me 5 years to do it debt free, but I made it. Today I have a home in California and a good job, but my degree had little to do with it. I got my job from work experience and military background with little to do with my degree...it may have helped a bit, but it was not worth it. The path to the middle class is not rooted in college these days...Bernie means well, but more people with more degrees devalues the degree and I have to say the degree didn't mean much in the first place. Unless you're pursuing a STEM field, you're quite literally wasting time. My advice: work hard and go after certificates for whatever field you're interested in. Don't fund these diploma mill state schools and "prestigious" universities. And be realistic about paying tuition... If you don't have a plan to pay up front or you aren't going to be a doctor or something capable of paying off debt later, don't even go for it. You are responsible for your own debt, not society. I made a mistake going for my bachelor's, but I at least had the foresight and work ethic to pay my bill up front.
What job are you working now?/what job did you do that got you your home?
In countries like Germany for example there are dedicated research institutes which are mostly independent from any university.
For example the Frauenhofer Institutes, the Max Planck Institutes or the German Aerospace Center (DLR) etc. who all are exclusively dedicated to research and have Institutes all over Germany.
That's why German Universities don't rank very high.
"For example the Frauenhofer Institutes, the Max Planck Institutes or the German Aerospace Center (DLR) etc."
But that reminded me that the DLR, well, that would be what, NASA in the US? A space program that partners with different clients and pushes for certain research on things they consider helpful? And we have plenty of both corporate and other research partnerships that are outside universities over here in the US. The caveat is that yes, some of even these, in fact, end up partnering with certain universities, but they are not actually the university itself.
So it seems that the US also has non-university research centers, and has a higher education system that is designed to push out a bunch of new minds right into an immediate research field that is built in to the universities themselves. And make some great innovation in a field? Tenure is easier, to help push that research even further at the university, with more funding for it as you crossed that hurtle. Whereas that is separate at best in Europe, and operates at a less ubiquitous level from a research point of view.
@@adrianbundy3249 The DLR is not just an Aerospace research center, it also researches transportation and energy.
Also the entire manned space program and large parts of the unmanned space program of Germany are integrated into the European Space Agency (ESA) which is more of a counterpart to NASA then the DLR.
There is certainly University research in Germany, especially in the best ones on their field, but the Universities are more focused on teaching. Often an institute of Frauenhofer or DLR, will stand right next to a University.
The best U.S. universities are better then the best German ones, but an average German Uni is better than an average U.S. uni.
they're not as good as the american model.
@@cachem11 You know, not everyone is obsessed with arbitrary ranking or standardized tests.
Having gone through the US college system in one of the better schools in my field I can say that the education quality is very mixed, especially for undergrads. Many of the professors are horrible teachers, the only reason why the graduates do well is because they were top students to start with. The best a degree from a top university can buy you is a good starting job. If you can’t get that with your degree, it is not worth the debt at all.
I was supposed to be an international student from Jamaica to the US, however I decided just to attend school in Jamaica for this main reason:
I AM NOT GONNA PAY OVER $40,000 USD FOR A DAMN OVERSEAS SCHOOL WHERE I CAN PAY LESS THAN $1500 USD IN MY OWN COUNTRY. That's a huge gap right there.
I’d say that another big factor is universities using Grant Money they get from the government to add stuff that “Looks Pretty” but doesn’t have any educational value. For instance, I highly doubt that a Rock Climbing wall helps students with their classes. Same goes for Luxury Booths in the football stadium and many other facilities that “Look nice”. But Universities add them anyways to attract students. And guess who has to pay for the maintenance of these facilities... Yep, the Students. So they simply increase tuition fees to make up for it.
Oh, you'd be surprised. There are degrees, that have stuff you wouldn't believe, but is not just necessary for that field, is actually in demand, out there.
For instance, Mendel University has this bachelor's program called "forestry". There is a subject called "work with chainsaw". I'm not kidding. Precisely this program would actually benefit from a rock climbing wall, because of teaching safe approach to trees, which need to be fell, but are in very inaccessible locations, as well as safe use of climbing equipment. Hazardous logging is very expensive stuff and the last thing you need, is for your crew to not know, how to use a climbing harness.
And there are other programs, which don't have this direct use case, but would benefit. The same gear is used by Wireless Internet Service Providers (WISPs) for safety purposes, when installing WiFi dishes in high places (on factory chimneys mostly). So applied informatics would have use for that same wall. Another field would be sample collecting or deployment of monitoring stations (eg. research itself) for pretty much the same reasons.
Don't underestimate expenses you can't fathom to understand.
I think the problem with Universities is their main revenue stream is attracting teenagers who are offered massive loans & promised, (not in a legally enforceable way), that they'll make such a fortune later that they'll not even notice the loan.
You've been watching reason tv haven't you?👍
"Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone; All centuries but this, and every country but his own"
Not going to lie. As an American I was very concerned about student debt. We always hear how "we are saddling our future under a burden they will never escape from" however I never really appreciated the flip side of that and how it is this model that not only gets us the best universities in the world but allows us to be on the edge of pretty much every new technology imaginable.
After a lot of thought I have to agree that college is not for everyone but at the same time the stigma of not going to college can be pretty steep. That's why I think what should be done is 1 year of college which the government pays for/helps subsidize followed by 1 mandatory year of apprenticeship. Basically for one yeah you can be an apprentice/intern to literally any job to give you a chance to see what that trade is like and maybe even learn that college is not for you and after that you can either return to college for 3 years or continue your apprenticeship. While I do agree that having a college degree is important I believe we as a society have overemphasized the importance of it and that we should be offering more opportunities to find our futures without the massive student debt.
The worst thing of it all is that a lot of student loans can't be forgiven. This means if someone can't pay the interest on their loans they can't declare bankruptcy and may even get prison time if they don't pay up.
@Done Busy "the vast majority of people that can't pay off their debt now, would never have been given the loan in the first place" aka they wouldn't have been able to access higher education...
@Done Busy In the UK if you never earn any money you never pay back your loan, and you never pay more than you can afford, the repayment is capped. Plus if you wait long enough it just goes away. That's the government for you. In Europe it's still fucking free. Sucks to be you, dude.
@@ArawnOfAnnwn
If loans don't exist those mtherfkers cannot charge so much and will have to lower fees substantially.
Wow. What a freedom :-D
Australian student loans are interest free , and paid back through tax ...... thank god I’m an Australian. Every Australian resident is eligible too regardless of intelligence
You should've mentioned how much of the cost is because of useless levels of administrators in US universities that don't do research, and don't teach, they just suck $ out of the system.
One point you didn't mention is in Europe regulates entry into University with test scores, while America doesn't. Instead it pretty much lets any idiot to go to college, just a lower tiered school. This has the unfortunate effect that lots of poor quality students go into debt for degrees that are never completed and lots of good students get degrees that are pretty useless. In my life, I've seen a lot of really smart, college-decreed receptionists and baristas.
I don't disagree, but I would add many US students choose fields of study that are either highly competitive after graduation or the jobs are pretty limited like in art history or archeological research.
There are many good paying "dirty" jobs in the US that go unfulfilled. These include plumbers, utility line, and construction. They are vital jobs to society that can be learned at trade schools and community colleges for a fraction of what it cost to go to universities. But there is a stigma against these jobs because they do not sound glamorous.
And remember the BS courses them selves! Like it or not, a course need's to have a clear cut and TRUE road to either employment or research. Stuff like women studies don't have either, regardless of what liberal arts colleges say.
@@looseycanon idk. Women's studies might be useful if a student is studying to be an author, social worker, advertising/marketing psychologist, or research journalist. But I do agree that this and classes like it are very limited in their usefulness after graduation.
@@timmeyer9191 In that case, why not go and study psychology, marketing, journalism... go directly for the more specific field in a better established study program?
Man what about SAT usmelge exams are also entrance for the usa
Because they're a status symbol before anything else.
If you are not in STEM just go into the trades.
how do u feel about having lower status?
@@Studiosmediamilk how do you feel about having to ruin a society so you can feel yourself worthy?
a lot of why ppl drops out of college their first few years is because they're forced to take the same high school classes they just took in high school instead of letting students jump right into the core classes they're signing up for, i was one of the ones scratching my head, why did i go to high school if i have to take these classes over again, got bored with the classes and didn't take them seriously, so i just studied what i wanted on the side while making average grades in my classes
in my opinion, i think the entire education system needs re-structured. high school classes should be treated like intro classes for college, and college classes should have 3 phases, phase one is introduction to your degree program that teaches the basics of your field, phase two are your core classes where you learn the information you need to learn to move on to your advanced classes, and phase 3 is where you learn the advanced stuff that lands you into your masters and Ph.Ds
i mean, this bullshit where you have classes that doesn't belong in your career field is just money grabs, just imagine how much cheaper degree programs could be if we cut out the bullshit classes and reduce the number of classes required to get degrees in the first place, the way i see it, a masters should only cost you at a max of $23,000, not $50,000-$130,000
a lot of these costs are driven by military service programs that used to offer $50,000 if you served your full 8 years, then you got basic college training for free while in the service on top of that, so now, college has taken advantage of that hiked the price up where they only want ppl in the service so they can pocket free money
No sense making speech/communications mandatory in college after taking them in high school. I had to take it in senior year. Colleges must think undergrads are dumb or trying to rip them off with repetitive courses.
Im from Brazil and I see similar problems in colleges here and also in education as a whole...it's imcomprehensible how the people that work with education simply don't care / can't see the really big
problems concearning the way the education system is structured
Community colleges: H E L L O
That is not high quality education. Why do Americans want everything good in life only for those born on t wealth.
@@shakiMiki because we don’t care, what you want us to do riot?
Yes lets pay slightly less for the first two years of a four year college, then transfer to a four year college and retake most of those classes because they don't transfer.
@@logananderson7881 That is what screwed me over. My first semester was a refresher semester. Other than that I think starting at a two-year was a good choice. I only had to take 3 classes.
@@shakiMiki Holly Shit Community Colleges are high quality education! They offer the same degrees but don't ask for an arm and a leg to go to them!
I'm in Slovenia, my college was free and in addition I got about 150€ per month from the state as a reward for not dropping out.
So instead of student debt i graduated with student savings 👍
Yes but what percentage of college age people go to college in Slovenia?
free my ass
@@juarezm.6737 that's a slogan we can all get..... behind.
@@ThePoopsmith-12345 lol
Yeah, from what I hear Slovenian students cheat and copy each other. American here son of a Slovenian.
You forgot about how the USA has been divesting from universities since Regan. Over half of the tuition increases are for university administrators to help fundraise to stay competitive. Since every university, even state universities are doing this, they have to spend more and more money to fight for the crumbs of the Ivey leagues investors. We spend money on sports arenas and auditoriums to make investors happy, while neglecting the actual reason people need to go university, education. The USA just needs a department of research and department of recreation, so universities can just be schools.
Can you guys make a video about the possibility of the independence of Cape Town in South Africa? I've only learned about it recently but it seems like they're getting more and more traction and it sounds feasible for independence in legal terms
I've been following you guys for a few years now and you inspired me to study in the field of International Relations. Thank you so much for showing the true magnificence of politics
Lol y’all are not going anywhere, who would want a passport from jozi to cape? Also that’s where SA’s parliament is, so good luck with that 😂😂
Huh why
It's not happening
*Problem 1:* *Bureaucracy.*
*Problem 2:* *An over-emphasis on sports*
*Problem 3:* *To many fills.*
*Problem 4:* *Loss of public funding.*
ahm, better watch the video again, I think you did not understand the problem
Not to mention the bullcrap subjects like gender studies and race studies!
One detail the program did not exploited enough, is the growing bureaucracy from any fashionable interest in the media. Some have up to 7 race, gender, trans-gender, hyper-race, or whatever fraction in of the society becomes fancy. With all its diversity, the human society does not need 11 Directors for every single segment contained within.
What about the Canadian model? For Canadians and reaidents, the colleges there are much more expensive than they are in Europe, but much cheaper than in the US. A nominal college would have tuitions fees price tag at an arbitrary 20k USD per year, but the state would be paying a big deal of that for the citizens and residents. This allows for private in universities to exist and charge well, but the tuition fees wouldn't be too painful for for the students.
I graduated with 90k in student loans. It took 10 years with most of it working two jobs to pay off. It was a social studies degree. I work at a bank.
Its useless to spend hefty money in social studies especially if you are poor or middle class
Wow. I feel for you. I have a masters in politics and technology but currently jobless. No student loans anyways
@@FelixBat I think the smart thing to do now especially as an American is to go to Europe for your degrees. U could study to even the phd level and beyond for free after wish u can return to the USA if you want.
You should not of gone to university
@@ejeefe4816 why did you get that degree what job opportunities do you have? What did you expect
Some points that you forgot to mention most of international students are on scholarship and grants. Also the fact that college sports has much to do in terms of increasing tuitions. If you look at the highest paid state employee in most states it would be a coach of a varsity football or basketball team.
Sure someone like Urban Meyer at Ohio State was making $7 million a year.
Seriously why?
Why is American college sports so insane, there is nothing like it in the U.K.
I just imagine it’s cause most still can’t drink, so have to do activities on campus more
@@chrissmith3587 tbh, I can't compare my education here in 🇺🇲 to your education but yeah extra curricular activities are so important here but most people certainly drink, frat/sorority parties are pretty hardcore
In Australia my daughter just got her first HECS-HELP loan account summary. 1 year = $10,000 AUD. Ouch!! The only good thing I can say is that these loans are financed by the Australian government and only become payable when you are earning a wage (as a small % of that wage). If you never earn enough through your working life to pay off the loan the loan gets written off.
Lol. Kinda ironic how some tech companies started by college dropouts required potential employees to have college degrees
Well its usually college dropout from Harward and such - addmitance to these schools usually takes either big pile of money, or skill that would be graduate level of common university. Its not exactly comparable.
These are usually brilliant individuals, who were brilliant enough to easily enter prestigious colleges, who drop out to pursue an activity with much greater economic opportunity than spending that time and effort on finishing college.
These are not individuals who dropped out because they struggled academically or financially.
Problem in indian universities is that if you get any degree from it despite the cost you will be unemployed or get a low paid job (except few)
Come to America.
@@heraldomedrano851 thats what they do😂
Thank u sir, for make this video. I was waiting for this video
"Because they spend most of it on meat mountains running into each other."
Good one! Glad to finally see a fellow American agreee... we're a rare breed. I'm working on some 'trumpers' out in flyover country *cough* hell on earth *cough* that beg to differ. If you wanna make things right, shoot me a message!
Australian here. I thought the NCAA was making a fortune for your Universities?
That's why tuition is so cheap with the Ivy League schools and former all-female schools northeast.
Important to understand, elite research in many European countries is done at public institutes associated but not part of universities and therefore don't show in rankings. Germany for example has the Max-Plank-Society which at least when I checked a few years back ranked ABOVE Harvard in terms of publications and patents.
So study in Europe and do a Phd in the US.
A lot of people actually do study in Europe and then move to the US. They're milking the system.
Well... some of my friends went to Europe to take advantage of the system.
Where they don't milk you from education, the cost of livinh sure is high in europe.
So... it is still contributinf to the economy, just not from basic human necessities
@@Dominus_Potatus it depends where. But for example in Germany the cost of living is way cheaper than in the US but the salaries are also relatively high.
But yeah, if you wanna live in Paris or London you might have a hard time.
Have a gander at the Aussie model. It's essentially an Income Share Agreement paid by the Uni and the Government. You don't start paying anything until you start earning over $50k. It starts at 1% of your income pa and increases as you earn. I think max is 10% over $100k. You don't even notice the deductions from your pay
Same in the UK, you don't start repaying your student loan until you're earning a certain amount of money.
This is why I will never go to a university college. Go to a tech or trade school, it's a 1/5 of the price
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As someone who finished one bachelor in Linguistics in Brazil, and is currently failing to get a second in Computer Science in Germany, even though here the university is "free" I still struggle quite a lot to pay the semester fees (every 6 months I have a month with double expenses, but visa limitations impede me from earning enough for that), all the while in Brazil I have never ever needed to pay anything, plus could still lived confortably while working 6 hours a day the entire week. Case in point, in Germany the course is "full time" (a class in the morning and another near the evening, impeding me from finding a good job in the small town I live in), while in Brazil it was only during the morning, afternoon, or evening, depending on the bachelor. Here teachers also have a lot of freedoms how to manage their courses and can get away with not offering any classes during the pandemic, while also failing most of the class in the finals. In contrast, in Brazil the only exam I've seen being remade (for failing more than 20% of the class), was reviewed by the course's counsil, while in Germany you have to make a petition with the entire student body to have something similar happen.
The universities in Brazil are technically free but difficult entrance exams mean in practice that, for the most part, only wealthy people can afford them because exam preparation tuition is costly. Semester fees in Germany are only 200 Euros per semester and often include free local public transport.
The US is an example of a conundrum where it is the wealthiest country in the world, but at the same time, the poorest population live worse than third world countries. It is mind boggling that people cant call an ambulance in fear of the extortionate bills and students wont be able to meet their potential because higher education is built to benefit the rich from every angle.
Yeah right. Poor people are obese and have cell phones and cars. Try to find that combination in Iran.
@@funveeable
They are obese because they can’t afford healty food, so they eat cheap junk food, and lives in places who are really car dependant.
Also in Iran people have cars and smartphones, but they are not obese
Oh believe me, the poorest here live much better than the average 3rd world citizen.
@@joenathan6458
Yes, that is for sure, but the comparison is with other developed countries
And there exists places in the country you can work 60 hours a week and be homeless.
You forgot to mention the generally different K-12 system, which is extremely important in a discussion of university costs. European countries, at least to the best of my knowledge, in general tend to offer two different career tracks into which students are segregated during their K-12 education. One track being toward university, for those deemed intellectually capable, and the other being for trade/technical schools for those that are believed to be better suited for these roles.
In the US every single high school student is encouraged, and outright told to, attend university because that is believed to be the only path to success. Trade and technical schools aren’t even considered, and are simply thought to be for rejects.
This artificially spikes demand for university education in the US while, conversely, lowering it in Europe. The European model is clearly superior, because most people genuinely do not need university education, and America is severely lacking in trade/technical workers.
it varies from country to country, but i'd characterise it more that vocational education is seen as just as valuable as higher academic education in those countries, and students choose where they want to go, rather than it being 2 separate streams, at least I've never heard of students being put into a separate track in any european country
This is not the best time for anyone to be left out when going for digital assets
For real crypto is profitable
Crypto is the new gold
I wanted to trade Crypto but got confused by the fluctuations in price
@@beatricepeters1977 That won't bother you if you trade with a professional like Mr James Lawson Bryan
I heard that he's strategies are really good! ....
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I attended engineering school in the mid 70's. Our annual tuition was a bit over $5k. My starting salary when I graduated was a bit over $20k. So, my starting salary was about 4 times my annual tuition. The same school has a 2022 tuition of about $80k. But graduates today, while certainly well paid, do not get 4*$80k = $320k starting salaries.
When I wander around my old school's campus, I see buildings that are way fancier than when I was there... Three-story atriums, a gorgeous athletic center with dozens of exercise machines, etc. When I was there in the 70's, my department's building had been built during WW II in a hurry and was 30 years old and pretty run down. What passed for an athletic center was a dump, we had free-weights and the exercise mats were worn out with horsehair coming out of cracks in the plastic covering.
Also, in those days, professors were paid less than their industry counterparts with similar qualifications. Afterall, they got the summer off, they got to go on sabbatical every few years, etc. Now, professors are treated like rockstars. They are paid as much, or more, than their industry counterparts... And are free to have ownership and management roles in private companies (That was forbidden back in the day.)
And yet, for all the expensive fancy buildings and rockstar professors, I don't think the students today are getting a better education than we did back in the 70's. But, of course, universities never compete on price and students keep applying and, somehow, coming up with the money for tuition. It seems unsustainable but it also seems there is no elasticity in the demand.
Most students don’t actually pay the sticker price for college in the US. That’s what this video misses completely
Why are British universities so far ahead of other European countries? After the US it's the next education power house.
If you look at the leaders in almost all commonwealth countries there educated in elite British schools/universities.
So elite British schools/universities simply have much more funding since the elite of 54 different countries go there.
That’s why Oxford is either 1st or 2nd depending on the year.
I have studied chemistry in a major european city. Tuition fees were low, everybody was looking educated students but many profs were not eager to educate. To them, it was something like a punishment that kept them away from research. There was plenty of despotism, abuse and insanity. The farest excursion I ever attended while I was at this university was to two day trip a steelmill located at the other end of my country. My mental health declined and I was struggling the first years after graduation. Moreover, I drifted from chemistry as I couldn´t get a job. The state should control universities more to ensure that only people who are able to and who want it, are allowed to teach.
Canada is very expensive too but we DON'T forgive the debt and we don't have the population base to make our universities thrive as much as the USA... I spent five years in post-secondary school and it hasn't helped me one bit, every job I've ever had I could have gotten without the college on my resumé, I wish I had have traveled Europe or Asia with the time and money instead.
You're a brilliant man, Grant
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+1 •8 •6 •2 •35 •0 •0 •2 •2 •4 W•H•A•T•S•A•P•P.**
My mbbs fees in India : 100$/year
And my college is in top 5 clg in our country
Had I taken scholarship given by Central govt. I would be earning from my college.😂😂
They were giving about 200$/year because our fees is already very low.
Bro I think you have got a government medical college private ones are much expensive.
Impressive
A few items to correct.
1. In the U.S. what your degree is in carries much more weight than what school you attended too. Only at the top Ivy League level does that really matter. Your Collegiate GPA and your degree are overall much more important. More prestigious schools have internships which allow better access to certain higher paying jobs, but what your majoring in significantly dictates this.
2. The top colleges are usually specialists in high demand careers so as result their graduates are more likely to get those high demand jobs.
A few items to discuss.
1. American Schools have become EXTREMELY opportunistic and basically want to use the government as a blank check the same way the military industrial complex currently uses the government. This is their end game. As result they love unlimited federal loans as that means they can essentially generate a blank check. Also by duping young adults who don't know any better they can take advantage of them getting them locked into predatory loans.
As you stated the Federal loans being distributed so easily is what inflates the cost of education.
2. The entire public education from 5-18 years old pushes the propaganda that everyone should go to a 4 year university and that if you don't you're stupid, or mentally incompetent. This in turn creates high demand. There are a great many students that have no business going to 4 year universities and would be better suited learning a trade or going to community college.
3. Public universities have made it difficult for people to even get their foot in the work field, as most places require a college degree. Many places generally use this as a place holder and the significance of that degree is in many places negligible, as most colleges teach theoretical education while careers employ practical education.
4. Propaganda creating the unrealistic ideal that any college degree will generate good money is pushed like wildfire by the education system. Colleges are notorious as if the revealed the truth it would damage enrollment and certain non-profitable majors would vanish entirely. Essentially many universities prey un brainwashed, unsuspecting kids.
Possible Solutions.
1. Public School teachers and other people who work in government positions should have their student debt forgiven if they agree to work in the government position for 4 years.
2. Stop pushing college on everyone while they're children. Instead inform them of profitable high demand technical trades skills and let the students decide. Stop creating the toxic atmosphere that someone who picks up a trade is stupid.
3. Government should be encouraging less student loans but more scholarships and grants.
4. Government should be willing to forgive student debt if college students secure degrees in areas where there's a national shortage in critically important industries. For example we have a nursing and physician shortage, and this could be remedied by allowing those graduates in those fields to have their student debt paid off if after the get their degree they work for 4 years in the field.
5. Utilizing the internet and the "free education" to lower costs. Technology has made learning and higher quality education extremely affordable. Many industries should focus more on career oriented certificates as an alternative to expensive education.
Universities in America (I don't know if it's different elsewhere. if you went to a university outside America, please share, I want to hear your experience). Don't do a good job at preparing you for working in the real world. I got 2 degrees from a decently prestigious business school, however, that didn't really propel my career. Networking helped me land my first two real jobs. At my most recent job I was giving the task of organizing and constructing a new IT department in our company (we exclusively outsourced everything until then). We didn't know anyone who could do database administration so we put out a job posting. We got 9 replies in 3 days. We decided to interview them all and it became obvious that we could really connect with only 3 of them. 1 had an associates degree, 1 had a bachelor's from someplace I can't remember, but the third guy was about to graduate from Cornell with a degree in database management. We decided to give them a second interview and during the interview, we'll administer a fairly because coding question. The two guys from the regular schools thought it was fun. The ivy league dude.... He didn't recognize it at first, started sweating, and wasn't able to solve it at all. I'm sure Cornell has some great IT professors, however, they obviously didn't really connect with this guy. It was kind of embarrassing. He was still a nice guy overall. We went with the guy who had the bachelor degree from one of our local Ohio schools. Se schools are working on getting students more working experience whole they're still there, but there is still a long way to go before those schools come close to the worth we have to spend on them.
Even so your Can't go to universities means Americans can go to community college which is good here in india if you go to a average college most of them are theoretical orientated and 75 percentage attendance.
A voucher system would be the best. You choose the univeristy and the state pays exactly what is needed. Loans create debt and "free education'' is not in fact free, the state takes more money than needed and it makes you think it's free. There is nothing free. There is only taxation.
We in Europe care for our people.
As Europe slowly eats the middle class. So you either get rich or it just doesn't matter.
Not the UK.
The first country, where the lowest classes (not only elite and middle class) went to the college, was the USSR.
American here, we get 2 free years of college if we live in a civilized state like California. And we even have programs that pay for our bachelors as well if we transfer from community college maintain our gpa. I’m about to complete my finance degree without getting any student loans.
Graduate with A average here in a backwood state Like Georgia and your tuition is free. a B average drops you to 90%.
Where they get you is at the master's-level tuition
Nothing wrong with student debt , if u want to be an engineer or a dr , u can afford to pay back your student loans . Here in Australia, you only pay back your student loan if you gain a job paying higher than the adverage salary
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A quick look online shows two of the top three universities in the world are European, Oxford at one, and Cambridge at three.
In Dubai the most prestigious school is the British school, the same in Abu Dhabi where the top school is British. There are also Australian and Canadian educational establishments there, too. The common factor is the English language, not some exclusive US element, excellent though I am sure that the American system is.
Nice work
Why are the thumbnails high quality? 😂😂😂
@@shanehummusthesuccessgps1973 shut up fake account
Worst part is universities are charging more in tuition while simultaneously keeping their instructors on adjunct status so they can't achieve tenure. I know university professors that have to bartend during the summers to pay their bills.
So where's all the money going?
@@flopunkt3665 like the video said into state of the art research facilities so they can soak up that federal grant money.
@@shanehummusthesuccessgps1973 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@roscaeusebiu3142 Good one! Glad to finally see a fellow American agreee... we're a rare breed. I'm working on some 'trumpers' out in flyover country cough hell on earth cough that beg to differ. If you wanna make things right, shoot me a message!
@@mynameismaxdowis this is ridiculous
Since I (and maybe you) went to Uni in the UK, prices have sky rocketed. The once free UK model has adopted the US system and is even more expensive. 9000 pounds per year - flat fee, no matter how good/bad uni is - plus living costs. Average UK graduate leaves owing around 35,000 pounds (about USD50,000) to be paid over 30 years before it is written off. There are special conditions attached to rate of payment vs income, but it's still a hell of a lot!
I'm honestly fed up with people misrepresenting how the tuition fees system works here and trying to claim that we all leave in debt so i'll just apologise in advance for this rant
TLDR: it's not real debt since we repay based only on earnings not amount borrowed, it's just a graduate tax in disguise because taxes are unpopular
the UK model is nothing like the US system, it's a de facto graduate tax (especially with PAYE meaning it's just taken alongside all the other taxes), since repayments are exclusively based on earnings (9% of what you earn above a the repayment threshold, so if you earn £1000 more than the threshold, it's £90 a year, if it's below that you don't pay anything at all), the vast majority of graduates never even pay off the principle of the debt, and the government knows that and get's the money through other taxes like regular income tax and sales taxes, as well as the increased productivity of a more educated workforce.
I have a 'debt' of more than 50k and i've never paid anything back because the repayment threshold is now 27k, i'm now going back to uni to do a PGCE (teacher training) and that's another ~20k 'debt' because I get max maintenance loan, and it won't change the amount I pay back because to repay just my first degree, my earnings would need to be ~70k on average for the next 30 years, because after that it's just written off. My dad had to postpone going to uni until after his brother graduated because their parents (who were pretty well off by the way, one was a highly skilled engineer and the other a highly qualified nurse, both earning very good money for the time) couldn't afford to support both of them at the same time even with the grants they could get and if they both had part-time jobs, whereas when I went to uni, I could support myself almost entirely off my maintenance loan and the bursaries I got from the uni (all together they were about 10-12k per year, or about what my mum was earning at the time), and I wasn't even that frugal and I still have savings from then more than a year after i got my last payment.
the thing that everyone arguing for the return of free education in the UK forgets is that since the introduction of tuition fees and the current loans system, the biggest beneficiaries have been people from disadvantaged backgrounds like minorities and the number of people who are the first in their family to get a degree have soared, these are the very people that are to supposedly benefit from making it free. this is because when they're free, total university places are inevitably going to be limited (because you'll never get what is basically a blank cheque to pass parliament, no matter which party is in charge), which means that the people with the best grades get them, which will always favour rich, educated families since they can afford extra tuition, new resources, they have more stable home lives and live in more affluent areas with better schools, they have the time to help their kids with school etc. etc.
the US system is rubbish, I mean they had to make a law that said you couldn't clear out student debt by declaring bankruptcy, it's the only type of debt that works like that, it's insane. the UK system is essentially just subsidised tuition like you see in other european countries, except that rather than paying a small amount up front and the rest being paid in general taxation, it's nothing up front but you also have to pay a small extra tax if you get a good job (which you probably needed a degree to get). and since it's not 'free' on paper it's able to get broad support in parliament without needing to limit the number of places
@@TauGDS But can you get a mortgage on a house when you're 25 despite having dropped out after 2 years? I did when it was till free.
The current system favours the already wealthy and stops people who lack confidence - maybe due to mental health issues - form taking a risk at uni when the consequences of failure would be disastrous.
@@DarylBaines what consequences? If you aren't earning you aren't liable to pay anything, did you even read what I said? And house prices are an entirely different issue so I don't know why you're bringing that in like it's an argument
@@TauGDS If you already have a huge debt, it is very difficult to get a mortgage until that debt is paid. If someone never earns enough to pay off the debt, then it still exist until that person is into their 50s, by which time they are too old for the bank to give them a mortgage of more than 10 years - which would be far too high in repayments. So people tend to focus on subjects which have high earning potential.
And yes, I did read all of your post.
It is a fact that fewer people today take Arts and Humanities because of fear of endless debt. This has greatly harmed the cultural diversity of the UK. More people used to take a chance on fringe subjects and some succeeded, people tend to do that less now. Among my friends there are people who are professional musicians or make TV documentaries about archelogy based on taking a chance to do something they were passionate about, rather than Business Studies ro Engineering.
@@DarylBaines student loan debt doesn't affect your credit score, it doesn't prevent you from getting any other loans a mate of mine got a mortgage straight out of uni with just as much student debt as me (it was in Newcastle so he could actually afford it on his own), yes arts and humanities degrees don't get you a good job, that's been the case as long as modern universities have existed. Name me one professional musician that has ever gotten their career from a music degree, they get there from playing music because it's purely a vocation with very little academia involved , same reason we don't see welding degrees
Regarding the rankings, if you look at the ranking of degrees (such as bester master in finance or in mathematics ) you will find much more European universities
Met a guy in the Navy who claimed he had a gig, when he got out, loading bales of cocaine on vessels in a Colombian mangrove. He said he was wholly confident he could, easily, bank-roll his way through 4+ years at the University of his choice. ¡Gracias a Dios por los consumidores estadounidenses de cocaína!
Damn
@@qjtvaddict Keep in mind that FINAL sentence.
Actually, i cannot talk about all european universities, but in germany Universities do research. However, the research facilities are not tied to the Universities themselves but instead operate as independent entities with a different funding system. This is why even our research-strong universities rank low - because their research facilities are not part of the university.
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Something surprised they didn't touch on was how those student loans don't act like regular loans. You pretty much can't default on those loans no matter what. My aunt is having her wages garnered because she refused to pay back her loans after attempting to file for bankruptcy. Since those loans are backed by the federal government, the schools will be paid no matter what. If the schools had to eat those loans people fail to pay back. They may be more inclined to reduce tuition. However, I we'll probably come up with some other convoluted way to "solve" this problem. "modern problems require modern solutions".
Maybe it makes more sense to be a grad student at a prestigious university, than an undergrad. So that you participate in research, and maybe you go on to start a company. (Unless you're interested in networking with other bright students as an undergraduate.) I've taken or started a few of the undergraduate MIT and Yale courses available on RUclips. The professors are names you know (Gensler, Schiller,...). The lectures are well thought out, presented well. But from what I've seen you don't learn any more then you would at a state university. The teachers at a state university and branch campuses, whether they be researchers or not, teach the courses just as well. You're not missing out.
In Hungary the goverment limiting the tuition free spaces so much. You have to be an excelent student in high school to have a chance and pass several high level subjects at the final exam of high school.
If you want to get your diploma you have to take at least a mid level english exam which most student can't pass. And not to mention, most people who finished their studies can't get a job.
You have to pay for your studies but the tax, accomodation, inflation, overall prices are so high where people have to choose between go to work and drop out, or student loan.
You forgot the ETH Zürich in all those rankings! A Swiss universtity who is in the top 10 of the world by most standarts
It seems to me that the US education and healthcare systems operate on a fundamentally different premise to most other western countries. The fact is they are, first and foremost businesses designed to produce a profit/high paying jobs- with education ( or healthcare) a by-product, not as their main reason for existence.
If you want someone to remember your creation, make it expensive
The only way to lower the cost of university is to make them irrelevant. Remember, most people go to university as a means to an end. That is, to gain access to high paying jobs and in general, to earn more money than just the minimum wage. But what happens if you cut out the middle-man? What happens if people can gain access to a high level of income without having to go to university? University would have to cut fees to attract people. But studying still requires time. Time that people could be spent making money. So University would have to lower fees even more to get people to switch from spending their time making money to spending their time studying instead. But at that point, would people ever give up their source of income, even if it's temporary just so they can get a degree? What would be the point of a degree anymore? Of course, some career paths still require a degree like Medicine so for these types of jobs, the cost for these degrees would still be high. But then again, would people enter into these types of career if they can earn more money in a different career and with less effort required?
When everyone has a degree the value of that degree goes down.
The universities of old Europe used to be more honest about the privileges that went with wealth. Once the nobility decided that it would be better to be able to read, write and count than to leave all that to the churchmen (who had somehow ended up owning a quarter of the land) they received special consideration.
At Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin, sons of the nobility and royal family paid 4 times the normal fees. In return, they had no need to attend lectures or take exams and were awarded an MA after two years. But few stayed that long, and they would rarely go into business or public administration. They concentrated on having a good time away from their parents.
"Gentlemen" who paid twice the fee could avoid college but not university exams, and got their BA in 3 instead of 4 years but still had to wait another 3 years for the MA exam. Boys who had gone to Eton or Winchester had exclusive right of admission to King's College or New College and were also exempt from university exams.
At the other end, clever but poor kids like Isaac Newton had to do menial tasks around the college and had their fees paid for them.
All these groups were easily distinguishable by different quality gowns and headgear, much as we can today by designer clothes and sports cars. Once oral exams (in Latin) gave way to written papers, there was a thriving trade by the 18th century in writing MD and probably other theses for students who could afford to buy them ready made.
These official privileges faded out in the UK over the late 18th and early 19th centuries, but the rich can still somehow sail through. In mainland Europe the French revolution and Napoleon's conquests swept away these overt relics of the "ancien regime," but the US has covertly retained them.
I don't agree with the premise that American universities are better than, say, German universities.
Those rankings are politics and the prestige comes with it, not with the quality of education.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 german universities. Dont make me laugh
I would argue that even European universities are a waste of money when you consider the fact that Apprenticeships exist. I work in software development and got there through an apprenticeship. If it wasn't due to the idiots in HR wanting a degree I wouldn't have wasted my time getting a rag of paper from University doing a course that barely related to anything I was doing in industry never mind being outdated and offering nothing in terms of "learning". I've seen many graduates in other fields transfer into software pathways through work place schemes and in house training that I see no reason for software to be a university pathway.
If anything, you go to university to learn the theory of working, not how to do an actual job.
The UK seems to be a hybrid approach. We still have some of the best ranked universities, decent teaching, a cap on what universities can charge (~£9k) and a PAYE repayment model (~9% of earnings over £20k). The one crap thing is the interest rates on these loans (~6%) makes them rise faster than the average graduate can repay effectively turning them into a graduate tax. We have also not generated companies alike Apple or google (maybe ARM?) yet.
the startup thing is just about the venture capital setup in silicone valley, there's plenty of massive british companies e.g. unilever (well it's british-dutch but still), but also generally these massive companies don't actually make up large amounts of the economy and are more of a soft power thing, this is an old statistic so grain of salt but around 2/3rds of the uk gdp is by small and medium sized companies, large ones employ a lot of people and make a lot of money, but for ever one of them there's hundreds if not thousands of smaller companies
These days most people leave university more stupid than they went in. School leavers are better off going straight into a job and learning on the job.
My firm (one of the Big 4) pays for full-time graduate programs. It’s a competitive program where one applies and is selected for. I’m planning to take advantage of it if I’m accepted to a top 5 business school.
I paid for my undergrad at UMD with mostly scholarships and $2000 out of pocket working as server at Red Lobster.
There are ways to get educated without getting into debt. If you are getting into too much debt for a college degree which will not justify itself... a college education might not be for you.
frankly, in terms of the research alone, they are worth the price tag in a national sense. though what I would suggest is to stop telling every kid to go to a four year university, and instead place more importance on two year tech schools or community colleges and having those be covered by the state the same way k-12 is
Remember when Oxford, Cambridge , Eton and Harrow were the dream schools ? They are still mine 👍
The British are the only European country with top schools
They still are
@@sdprz7893 those schools are in the top 5 in the world not just europe
I think it was something with legal changed enacted in 80s which allowed them to skyrocket. Other reason is American exceptionalism and surprising lack of common sense on part of to-be students - people taking equivalent of mortage(!) to study not medicine, engineering but gender studies, journalism or underwater basket weaving and being surprised, that they are not in demand after graduation. Add to this flatlining demand and wages afterward....and on the other hand politicization of education.
Conveniently left out Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial etc the consistently highest ranking Universities in the world, based in Europe!!
All the Universities you mentioned are in England, while universities here are cheaper than the US, they aren’t exactly affordable. Tuition fees have more than tripled in England since 2012 as the government raised the threshold from £3000 to £9000 and then again to £9250. A lot of the top Universities here are probably running the US model at this point.
While researchers may make a lot, it's worth noting that higher academia is a super exploitative industry in the US. Coast to coast stories of folks given full professor level workloads hired as adjuncts with class by class contracts that pay out minimum wage (or less) across hours of work performed. Grad students who teach often can apply for food stamps. They can get away with it due to the outrageous amount of people trying to work those jobs each year. Its fucking insane
many us states waive tuition fees to state universities if you excel on standardized tests. tuition is free for intelligent americans but everyone has equal opportunity to try if they have money in their pocket. for those who maybe didn't do well in college or on tests the community college system is great. in massachusetts anyone who earns an associates degree at a community college is automatically accepted to the state University systems and continues to pay tuition at the community college rate which is next to nothing. i graduated at the top of my class from umass Amherst at age 30 going the community college route. no sympathy for those with debt who needed to live on a college campus for 4 years.
This is a good video that explains the topic well. It covers the difference between instruction-oriented and research-oriented, and other US-specific reasons for the cost. The only thing left out was the insane ratio of support staff to productive staff in the US, but that's just one of many causes so the video is still good :)
However, I don't think it's a good idea to compare prices in the US and Spain. Not many people realize how much richer Americans are to Spaniards. By any measure (GDP, post-tax income, per-capita wealth, etc.), Americans are on average just over twice as rich as Spaniards. That's already an enormous difference. However, it goes further than that: All of the top US universities are located in rich states, which are about 30% richer than the US average. In Spain, only Madrid and the Basque Country has that ratio, in other words the wealth difference between Connecticut and Navarre is even greater than between the US and Spain, and come out to more like 2.5x. This is given that the costs of living in the US is only about 30% higher than in Spain, including in many rich states (maybe not in San Francisco).
In other words, if an American from Connecticut makes $5000/mo and spends $2600 on living, a Navarrese in the same situation would be making $2000/mo and spending $2000/mo on living; so the American wouldn't be 2.5x richer, but many many times richer (in this case infinitely, but in practice probably something like 5x-10x, after all necessary expenses). This is obviously a simplified model and life in Spain isn't that bad (nor is it that great in the US), but it's not far from reality. Due to high wages, low taxes, geographical inequality, and geopolitican factors, Americans in richer states have the highest purchasing power anywhere in the world, more or less. The only non-microstate in Europe that can compare is perhaps Switzerland. Comparing prices with Spain, with much much lower purchasing power, is just not meaningful.
By the way, hybrid models of research-instruction exist in some countries. Israel is a decent example, with a few research universities that are ranked fairly highly in all these comparisons, and dozens of private colleges that do little to no research, plus the Open University. This way Israel has one of the highest college gratuation rates in the world, but at the same time a lot of world-leading research. Unlike in the US though, the expensive tuition is actually paid in the study-oriented colleges: around $8,000/year. In the state-owned research universities, tuition is closer to $3,000/year. This is usually fair-the research universities are far more prestigious, but their instruction is usually theoretical, because the professors only care about research and the state-employed support staff can't be fired and cares little about students' well-being. In private colleges the focus is on the student and practical skills, because they want to attract more people. On the other hand, some private colleges are less professional and have a very low academic bar at best, and complete scams at worst, so a good bet is to study in one of the large established ones. The Open University is somewhere in the middle, and attracts far more students than any other university or college in the country.
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The answer is more alternatives to traditional brick and mortar universities … more technical institutes, vocation and certification programs , as well as more online education platforms , and finally remove caps to the founding of more colleges. More choices lead to a more competitive market which will force traditional schools to compete with lower tuition costs.
Of course there other solutions. Like putting caps on How high the tuition can be.
America needs to stop spending billions defending Europe. Where does most of the medical and pharmaceutical R&D come from? America. America spends trillions footing the bill for defense and healthcare innovation where the rest of the world benefits. I love how they act so superior with their “free” health and education on the backs of America.
Fascinating 🖖
US STEM degrees have the professors instructing on what they are researching. Relevant and timely learning. If you are in liberal arts, you're a battery.
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The military does a lot of research into various projects. A person can get some hands on practical training, and they can also earn some funds to further that education. The only downside is they have to obey orders for a number of years.
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That's not necessarily a bad thing, going through the suck helps let the soldier narrow down what tasks are useful and what's BS (even if they say all of it is).
Well, well, well. If the internet didn't provide some lies and twisted stuff for me today.
You were right to point out that this ranking is made in the USA so of course the US universities in in the top. Guess,what universities are in the top in the French ranking? But that's not the only nonsensical thing about the ranking.
First of all, being cited itself is utterly meaningless. Many researchers only publish papers in order to be able to show that they have published papers. It's not about quality, it's about quantity. Why? That's how they get funding. And also recognition among those that don't understand the matter. Being cited alone, by itself is meaningless.
Furthermore you said yourself:
"Measuring the quality of teachers' teaching is difficult. What we can measure is an individual quality as researchers."
Wasn't it about teaching just a second ago? Why are we measuring researching now? Is researching the same as teaching? Can we conclude from researching qualities to teaching qualities? Why are apples and pears mixed to together? In order to create confusing?
On top of that not all countries have their research facilities in universities. In Germany for example there are institutions like the Robert-Koch-Institute which do almost exclusively research. You know why? Because universities are supposed to focus on teaching.
If a system is set up to separate education and research in that way then you can't compare it to another system which puts everything together. And even if you did then you need to compare what this is actually about (teaching) and not something else.
In conclusion:
Another one of Simon's "America is great" videos. Factoids and the creation of confusion by deflecting and connecting topics that don't have anything to do with each other.
You forgot to mention how American universities splurge on frivolous projects. The best example you should have mentioned was Cooper Union that offered free college to its students. because the university built a building and shelled a lot of debt, the university started charging tuition.
Universities can try and justify however they want. Here’s how it really is. In many universities, the household family of full time employees is eligible for a decent percent off their tuition for undergrad. In my university, it’s 75%. So if my parent worked there, where we would be paying 16k/yr, we’re paying 4k/yr.
Freshman year, I met the school’s president, and asked about the costs before being told 4k is the break even. If they charged every student $4,000usd/yr, everything would still run the same; there’d just be less profit to expand on infrastructure so quickly, like sports infrastructure or new class buildings.
So, that’s why.
Well according to this video,
if research is what drives technological advancements, and most research comes from universities, and funding for those research comes from university students, then
Corporations benefit from universities more than the students themselves.
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why couldn't the us take some budget out of the military to fund university?
Important issue. Please change the anchor and slow down dude. So peaceful as I pause the video.
There are all kinds of patents being registerd by the professors of such universities(some of which are so minor that one can say that they came up woth that idea themselves ), by doimg so they get the citations, devoted research papers etc, but that does not mean that all of them are practical, they exist just to boost those numbers.
I feel like the education is not only education but also business, the university is the supplier and student is buyer.
The first dimension of this discussion has to do with what people can do on their own. How much could a young person learn from the Internet via their cell phone, particularly when universities offer on-line course plans? This didn't exist 50 years ago.
The second dimension has to do with the baggage that comes with a US education. Increasingly there is an element of political correctness and 'things that simply aren't talked about'. See if anyone can find an American university that teaches military history. The English Classics are composed by 'dead white males' - this is out. American history is being revised with a focus on women, the Black experience, Latino influences, etc. Some of this is definitely necessary and overdue. However, if it comes with the suppression of the accomplishments of people that were, incidentally, slaveholders, or who ran Native Americans off their land, then we may miss things that are relevant to structure of the US as it is today.
A lot of US research is second-guessed by the academic establishment. Read up on 'Two Dangerous Tribes' to get an idea of what this means.
The third dimension has to do with the perverse incentives of Federal Government money. The GI Bill (for the WW II veterans) paid for university education. The US economy was the only one left standing after WW II - Japan, Germany, the UK, and Italy were left in ruins. Thus people were left to believe that the university education is what created the vast employment opportunities Americans enjoyed up to the beginning of the 1970's. Those in unionized manufacturing jobs certainly lost out from the 1970's onwards. The US was creating a highly technical workforce, with a particular emphasis on computing, which shifted the 'middle class' into technical trades. Teachers, truck drivers, and warehouse workers drifted into the 'lower middle class' end of the prosperity spectrum.
Government money has allowed a large number of people to enter the university system that don't belong there. One point of a university education was 'self examination' - challenging one's old dearly held assumptions. Some fraction of the student body now are trying to mandate some version of truth - without paying much attention to what it is within them that shouts down competing and unpopular viewpoints.
The fourth dimension has to do with American culture. There is a serious attempt to make the American university education diverse and egalitarian. Many European and Asian universities operate within some sort of caste system - the children of certain families are allowed to go to the most prestigious schools, everyone else has to attend 'lower ranked' universities. Admission in some universities requires obedience to some state doctrine, as one might find in Iran or China. The US is presumably 'color blind' although this isn't so evident in practice. An American researcher can come to unpopular or politically unpalatable conclusions - in other countries 'incorrect' conclusions would be suppressed. Researchers don't only come to the US for the money, sometimes they need, in particular, the freedom to counter the conventional wisdom.
It's all well and good to fund research but if you can't teach people how to do the job then what's the point? Also love how you missed out on British Universities like Oxford and Cambridge. One of the most widely used Covid-19 shots was Oxford's Astrazeneca which is being made at cost so that more have access to it. That is an achievement in and of itself.
When he says "we are gonna look at that right now..." 😇😇😇...
The thumbnail looks like it came straight out of a well-scripted "pawrn" film.
My problem is cost of tuition, and the fraternity/witchcraft system. Too many universities want "Scorpion", "Big Bang Theory" people dictating who can get in..Holding back some people's only way out of poverty and homelessness for families and women in wedlock situations, using techniques,similar to Nazism and The S.S., I never was a fan. If a christian or jew or desiring to reconcil with those congregations these committees continually break The First Amendment by voting and tag lining what one's religion is, which is hersay, plus, even if one tries to make amends or atone, by stocking former populars, athletes, and jocks and bullies, it is also a form of lying to religious institutions, as well as oppressive, suppression, and repression stereotyping of non - dorks, geeks, and nerds by pop culture social tropes.