Sorry I don’t know why the end got cut off but I figure most are checking out by then anyway. Anyhow, I don’t want to delete and reupload because of the awesome comments already made. Thanks everyone.
There is no timing mystery here imo. This is downbeat, always was. It changes for up beat for a moment but mostly down. Listen to all the crash accents and play it on drums. Secondly, please ask James :) I am sure he will tell you the same :)
Yup, James said something like: "I'm a frustrated drummer and Lars is a frustrated guitar player". So they switched roles with James being that fast metronome and Lars going a bit all over the place. I love it that way
It's all because people want to make it sound more modern sounding. Most guitar players think e standard is outdated. I don't think like that but most do.
Dude,now that totally makes sense to me! There was always 1 beat missing when I was going to the second riff(the mystery one) and I couldn't figure it out. Now everything fits perfectly in time. Many thanks Uncle B...oh wait...
What makes this one so tough is the fact that James's vocals and Kirk's solos are also so heavily oriented on the offbeat. I can play still play this on the drums even while hearing it backwards for some reason.
i don’t know if i’ve been always like this, but knew it was in the “off beat” since the beginning. even in my early stages of playing guitar! what got me at first was the speed of the song. it actually scared me for a while. but once i got the speed right, the song got “pretty” easy at the long run. even though i kinda knew this, it’s nice to see you teaching the good way of playing it! keep the good work Mike, i always binge watch you videos. greetings from Venezuela ;)
People like to talk a LOT OF SHIT, but I don't see them putting themselves out there and playing their ass off like you do. Keep up the awesome work man. Some of us SINCERELY appreciate everything you do. Thank you.
Metallica is the band with the most amount of timing mysteries I think. "Fight fire" was never a mystery to me though, always heard it the "right way" (and I hope most people do since the "wrong way" sounds pretty bad, totally different song lol). The biggest mystery to me was always "Frayed ends of sanity", the bridge between verse and chorus. I think a lot of there mysteries has to do with Lars, being an unconventional drummer and putting accents in weird places.
See... it's the opposite for me... I always kind of heard Fight Fire With Fire inside out with the guitar accent and the vocal sounding like it's on the down beat as opposed to the up beat like it really is. And I think it sounds better that way. It sounds weird when I think of it as the up beat. Frayed Ends, on the other hand, never messed with me. That bridge section always sounded so straight forward to me... and everyone always talks about that riff being so awkward and complicated but I find it too be one of their easiest and grooviest riffs.
I strongly doubt it's intentional unconventionality on Lars' part - more likely he couldn't figure out how the F it's supposed to sound and James got tired of trying to get him to hear/play it right, so they compromised and just let Lars do something he could do that sounded "close enough".
I really doubt most people hear it the "right way". I think when you're a guitar player, you focus most on the guitar riffs and then you probably hear it the "right way" easier. For the casual listener, or listening the song as a whole, it's pretty hard to hear it that way. I think this has everything to do with the start of the song. When the clean intro ends and the guitars swell until the first cymbal crash, the first part of the riff gets a little drowned in the total mix when that crash, kick, bass and second guitar hit on that accent. To me, that immediately puts you on the wrong foot. After that, you get the 'dum... dum... dumdumdum' accents two times before the beat starts. But the second time, instead of doing a crash and kick on the last 'dum', Ulrich does a crash and snare. This gives the idea that that is the point where the beat starts on 1. The snare is also ultraloud, and the kick is a lot less audible. After many years of hearing the song that way and thinking that is right, it's almost impossible to unhear it that way. I try to hear the song the right way, but at full speed I just can't do it. It's harder for me to hear it the right way than the wrong way. At 75% speed I can do it, but at normal speed I get lost straight away, no matter how hard I try. I know it's 'wrong', I know how it should be, but I simply can't unhear it unless I try really, really hard.
It's amazing because when I heard this riff the first time I went like "mhm, this seems pretty straightforward tempo-wise", but after years it turned out to be more complex than I thought it was.
They do this with the Blackened riff too. I always knew this with Fight fire with fire and riffs like this since the riff after suddenly jumps on you / missing a beat before it starts
Gosh. This part was the simple part. Is the B part before the verse that always stumped me. Until Uncle Ben taught it on Weekend Wankshop a couple weeks ago.
This channel is such a safe space for me. Fun videos covering esoteric subjects like this. Plus you can never tell when this guy uploads his videos because he doesn’t age. It’s comforting.
Great explanation - Years ago, I worked hard to figure out what was really happening, and it turns out it's really James' fault. As soon as he starts barking, his vocals hijack the "one" and I'm out until he stops. I've been listening to this song since it came out and that kink still owns me. By the way, the same thing happens to me on Van Halen's "Get Up" off 5150.
I would guess you're taking about the main riff. I hear it fine and it makes sense in my head but if I tried to count or play it it would all fall apart
Yep, battery is another one. If you get the tab for it and play it without the original drum track it suddenly makes sense. The first seven notes are a gallop rhythm and then the first power chord is on the off beat.
It's a really fun riff when you get it! (No means to brag but. . . Uhh:. . I got it on my first try. ..) dududu-dududu-diidiidu-dududu-dududuu-diidiiduudi edit: dududu-dudududduu-diidiiduudi
@@raxim42 Yea it's a bitch to try to figure out. I just played along with the battery guitar track until I hit most of the notes, and then tried to make sense of it for weeks then I got to the verse x)
Brother, thank you so much. I have been searching for this video for years. I've been struggling my whole life to hear this correctly. Exactly what I needed and have been seeking. Thank you!
I totally get you, it’s like an aural illusion. It happens in Damage Inc. as well, which I find very difficult to drum to because of the “on-beat” and other switcheroos in the beat, but this is a great video which is very helpful, great counting too!
It's a fun exercise to mentally switch between hearing the different beats. Flip back and forth. I do this often with alot of music just for fun. Crazy how many ways you can hear the same music.
There's a lot of songs that are like this actually (I'm referring to heavy metal songs). I was always aware of this, and you're right about the part of your ear pulling you back into thinking the snare is the downbeat when the snare is in the upbeat really. I'm glad I found a video that really explains this thing. I always knew about this but I couldn't find any words to explain it to any non musician lol. Great vid!
It’s so wild that you made this video because I remember hearing this song when I was like 15 and hearing the “right” way and then getting older and not being able to hear it that way at all, like the song was completely different.
Huge kudos and huge thanks, I've been waiting for a video like this forever. I guess I was just too lazy to try it myself. Since I was 16 I guess it wasn't necessarily a mystery although I referred to it as such… I simply gave into the fact that, largely because of the speed of the song and what Lars's obnoxiously typical drumming forces many of us to hear (as you well stated), that I would also always hear the upbeat as the down and the downbeat as the up. This video is a revelation. Even the different drum beat was an instant help. Great job.
I think the key to getting this riff down as a guitarist is to just go for it. Don't worry if you get turned around on the power chord stabs on the verse as long as you transition to the "pre-chorus" riff right after the last power chord stab. If you keep trying to guess the downbeat, you will 100% fuck it up.
@@AyedRUclips but I think that's just Lars' style. People like to overcomplicate his drumming, and that's not to sayit's simple, but he just plays what he feels is right, and since he has such a strange style, it makes it sound like its forced
It's great to analyze music. I've found in some songs, phrases start and end early or late, creating counting issues. A simple example would be the chorus for Fight for your Right, If I'm right, it's three bars, the first pause an 8th note early, the two shots on the first two 8th notes of the second bar and I believe five 8th note snare hits ending the third bar. I'm probably not 100% right, but it feels right, and it needs some calculations to help band mates get through it. I'll probably have better luck with this Metallica song since you've cleared it up, that also helps me with some other fast songs I've been trying to learn. Great lesson!
Is it weird i've always heard Blackened both ways? Even before i knew what beats and off beats even were i noticed there were 2 versions of the main riff i heard in my head and i wasn't sure wich was the correct one (or if they sounded different at all) now that i learned that stuff i can tell one of them was the "correct" one and in the other one i was hearing it on the off beat, and i can even consciously switch between both while listening to the song, i can't hear Battery with the snare on the downbeats even if i try tho
Lars and James, and also Megadeth with Gar have that unique sense of rhythm. They were just young adults writing what they wanted and heard in their heads. Your brain thinks quarter note on the downbeats but you have to think 8th note upbeats for the snare drum hits. It really messed with my head as a teenager in the 80’s trying to learn those drum parts. It’s very obvious with Slayer and Lombardo where the snare is. Silent Scream you know the snare is on the quarter note downbeats during the 16th notes double bass. The final verse is snare on the 8th note upbeats with the single kick.
Soo I've been playing this wrong for 16 years!! What the fuck... 😂 Guitarists now-a-day are so lucky to have access to this sort of info; used to play a CD on repeat and learn it by ear, loved it though! Great vid btw.
Thank you! What’s weird is that I could always hear the snare on the up-beat (Lars did this often), but I STILL couldn’t hear the guitar riff properly. It didn’t help that the production isn’t the best. So grateful you cleared this up!
The 'audio illusion' ( the ear tending to interpret it as the "on-beat" as opposed to the actual "off-beat" sync on the record ) really starts to creep in from the 2nd bar. I always heard the 1st bar as off-beat and then quickly thought they 'switched timing' and got back "on-beat" from the subsequent bars.
ive asked myself this question since i first heard it on cassette in the early nineties. and now youtube has recomended me the video that solves the mystery
Awesome. I play bass. It has that same beat problem. my ear was also pulling me back to that downbeat and it was messing me up. but now the song makes so much more sense and actually sounds even better. Thx for sharing this.
I always wonder how Metallica themselves actually feel that beat. Cause if you listen to how they playing the song on the gigs, they always accenting the on-beat so to speak and seemed just dont give a damn. It would never been that confusing if not those wrong accents. Therion's cover of the song, for example, do it justice.
you’re 100% correct that it is tough...if you play & sing the lyrics, it’s way more natural. the good news is that you don’t have to be a fantastic vocalist...the bad news is that i’m still not Hetfield. thanks for the ENTIRE Metallica Series you hammered out!!!
I don't know anything about playing guitar. However, I love watching these technical breakdown videos. While it doesn't mean anything to me functionally as I don't play, it means the world in showing how truly unique the music James and Lars created is and why it had such an impact at the time and why it's had such a long lasting legacy.
This was the first Metallica song I learned 19 year's ago after a year into guitar lessons. I had learned several Godsmack song's, like "Stress" "Keep Away" "Bad Religion" "Situation" and a couple Disturbed songs, but Metallica was the reason I chose to become guitarist, and got me kicked in too learn how too play. There is a confusing tone too the riff, my Guitar Teacher slowed it down so he could hear it correctly, and teach me it correctly obviously. "Fight Fire With Fire" well always be one of my favorite Fast, Angry, Aggressive, Pounding Riffs that James ever wrote. They're all close to 60, and are currently making a new album, I love Metallica. Cool Vid, and Killer Jackson and Guitar Tone man.🤘🏻🤘🏻
Right on. Yeah, I would kinda hear these things in riffs when I was a kid listening on my walkman and then discovered them even more when I started playing guitar in my teens. We always called it "beat displacement". I found a lot of it in the SOD - Speak English Or Die album and Anthrax - Persistence of Time. ...yeah, I'm in my 40's. Laughed when you started talking about the Les Claypool leg.
What amazes me is that this was being written by 20 year old kids, give or take a year. That couldn’t read music. The nuances of this song and others blows my mind how good they were at such a young age. Remember the complexity of Master of Puppets, the song and the album, is only a couple years away.
Me too. I'm a drummer, and until I read the tab, I always thought the snare was on the first count. Now I know how it's supposed to be, but I can never hear it like. I always catch it up in the pre chorus, but as soon as the verse starts again, I'm hearing it 'wrong'. But when you look at the live performance, it doesn't look or sound like Ulrich is playing a polka with the kick on 1,2,3,4, even if you slow it down. I am wondering how they have meant the song to sound themselves.
The biggest issue with finding the timing is that Lars' kick sounds like he's hitting a wet blanket, you can barely hear it through the wall of reverb. Without that to guide your ear, you lock in with the snare and vocal hits, completely screwing up your perception of the timing. The solution I found? Focus on the hi hat. It's easily audible and has a timing similar to the kick, just faster. If you grab onto that you can hold on to the beat easy. I used that to overcome 20 years of my ear being conditioned to the wrong way. XD
The speed of the song, the open chords and singing on the offbeat tricks you and makes it confusing. It always starts on a 1 with a bass-hit and snare on the offbeat. :)
I knew that the beat was off beat since the beginning, but I always just felt it as on beat. This is done with adding an extra 1/8 note to the first measure and subracting one from the last. This might be over complicating things but it was what made most sense to me
Fight Fire With Fire is fun to play. I would ask for Harvester Of Sorrow Live 1991. That was the best concert of the song and the best way the song sounded. James Hetfield was energetic to the max and probably the most hyper back then in that concert, plus it drove the Russians crazy!!
Oh my god thanks for doing this! I always knew I was hearing it wrong and was gona put straight drums on it for about 25 years but never got round to it.
Cliff played bass since he was 13, playing classic, jazz, rock etc. Practicing up to 6 hours a day. James started by playing piano when he was 9. I think you are really underestimating them.
Brilliant! I don’t know why I hadn’t caught this. It’s the same trick they do in Battery and Blackend. It’s so much better when the chords are heard on the upbeats. Very interesting. Thanks.
Great lesson. This rhythmic can be clearly heard in the middle of the verses, when after the 2nd riff part it starts with the open E riff part, NOT with G5 chord.
Me counting Blues: 4/4 4/4 4/4 5/4 Me Counting Jazz: 7/8 3/5 7/8 7/7 Me Counting Metal: 4/4 5/4 4/4 5/5 Me counting Dream theather: 7/8 8/9 17/16 Me Counting Metallica: Diriririr DI didi DI didi DI DI DI YEAHHH
Huh I’ve never had to much of a problem with this riff. But now you mention it, you have a clear point. I can’t play the blackened riff to save my life!!!!! Maybe it’s the down and up beat fricken thing. I can play the riff but never with the song playing at the same time. Thanks
I follow the timing of the lyrics. Which I'm pretty sure James did while writing this song. Suppose the confusion comes from when the drums first start, with the on beat crash. If you want to hear the timing clearly. Listen to the section after the harmonised guitars, when the double kick of the drums is centre. You can hear the exact beat the guitars come back in :-)
I have this same problem with anthrax's caught in a mosh. I know it's a normal thrash beat but I cant unhear it reversed with the snare on the down. Damn their wizardry!
Remembering when I was learning Muse's "Falling Away With You". A much simpler song, not one that screams strange timings, but the verses are accentuated on the off-beats. The chorus is played on the downs though, so when I counted wrong I was suddenly off when it hits.
Ah, the infamous FFWF turnaround. For years as a thrash fan I tried to flip the accents around because I knew Lars' drum part was consistent and I was prejudiced against the 4 snare on the floor Anthrax beat for some reason. But now, I appreciate the tension created by the implied Motown snare and resolution, even if it does sound like James is cutting the last note in half in order to switch the '1' from the snare to Lars' famous gallop kick. (PS Megadeth's Rattlehead also messed me up in the first mix of the album because until the remix the kick disappears during the mid-section when the accents all go to the snare.)
When the snare falls on the upbeat that's often referred to as a "D-beat", made popular by bands like Discharge. You hear it alot in old school Swedish bands like Dismember.
My ears heard it the wrong way for years. Even now, knowing the truth, my brain forces me to hearing that riff ON the beat - I can just about manage to concentrate on the music but when Hetfield starts barking it's straight back to the on beat!
Another fun but rather simple "mystery" is the chorus of Atlanta by Mastodon. The.... "off-beat tapping" makes that song very interesting. Have a look at it!
Thank you I always felt wrong going to second riff and now I can hear the song properly any time. But I think trapped under ice intro riff is much more confusing I had so much trouble hearing it right. And let's not forget about the most confusing of all them - exodus fabulous disaster verse riff
A lot of Metallica riffs are like this, Blackened and Battery being the most obvious examples. I used to think they used the "on beat" drum beat a lot, but I'm not sure if they even use it in any song (all of the songs where I thought they used it are actually using the "offbeat" drum beat). Back when I didn't know that much about rhythm, I always heard the snare in these fast songs as the strong beat (I didn't think about the more complicated rhythms because I didn't play them, I just listened to the music). And because I heard it this way when I was young (and back then I was a Metallica freak so I listened to these songs all the time), it's really difficult to hear these songs in the correct way. I'm pretty sure if I heard the songs today for the first time, I would hear them correctly. I already notice that I have started hearing some of the songs correctly, but in some of the faster ones I still have trouble with feeling the beat correctly. Then again, I don't even play guitar much any more and don't really listen to much Metallica, so this is not something that really concerns me, but I just find it interesting.
nearly every riff they have does that just layer of just a pedal. lots of songs do that if people would really listen close.you are correct theres even that going on master of puppets.
Честно говоря, никогда не мог подумать о такой проблеме с самым первым риффом. Всё стало на свои места после первого же прослушивания. Вот со вторым уже появились проблемы в плане понимания той хрени, что происходит в ритме) Если будучи новичком попытаться его сыграть на слух, то второй рифф более запутывающий
Sorry I don’t know why the end got cut off but I figure most are checking out by then anyway. Anyhow, I don’t want to delete and reupload because of the awesome comments already made. Thanks everyone.
Around 0:22-0:23 theres a weird glitch that happens while you're talking
Have you ever tried to know and resolve the timing for battery????!!!! Its even more confusing and complex than fight fire for fire! HEEELPPPPPPP
awesome channel, awesome video, awesome sound and skills you have ... really enjoyed your performance
Hello! A little question - that second riff played at for example 2:43 is not correct. Or was that intensional? LIke a variation?
There is no timing mystery here imo. This is downbeat, always was. It changes for up beat for a moment but mostly down. Listen to all the crash accents and play it on drums. Secondly, please ask James :) I am sure he will tell you the same :)
as the old saying goes, james hetfield's right hand is metallica's actual drummer
James is Metallica's best drummer
Actually I think Lars is just playing along James who is making the beat.. ;-D The guitar even starts before the drums.
and where has this saying been said before?
Yup, James said something like: "I'm a frustrated drummer and Lars is a frustrated guitar player". So they switched roles with James being that fast metronome and Lars going a bit all over the place. I love it that way
arglbargl 😂
Mike I feel like you’re one of the few guitar channels that plays metal in E standard. I love it.
THRASH METAL & FUN RIFFS your branding is messy and could be better. You’de get more views if you had better video titles.
THis song is originally in e tho
@@megaloblabber2948 Correct. Which is the key he's playing it in. Most metal channels tune down regardless.
It's all because people want to make it sound more modern sounding. Most guitar players think e standard is outdated. I don't think like that but most do.
@@patrickshannon4516 metallica themselves play it a half step down
Dude,now that totally makes sense to me! There was always 1 beat missing when I was going to the second riff(the mystery one) and I couldn't figure it out. Now everything fits perfectly in time. Many thanks Uncle B...oh wait...
Hahaha I love that comment.
I thought the same.
This channel and Ben are one of the greatest in YT right now! I watch both on a regular basis to learn and practice
Same here!! Thanks for explaining it
Huh I always thought that James was just a bit behind Lars lmao This makes more sense.
You play guitar??? Lol funny seeing you hear too
I always thought Lars was playing off time cause you know, Lars.
What makes this one so tough is the fact that James's vocals and Kirk's solos are also so heavily oriented on the offbeat. I can play still play this on the drums even while hearing it backwards for some reason.
i don’t know if i’ve been always like this, but knew it was in the “off beat” since the beginning. even in my early stages of playing guitar! what got me at first was the speed of the song. it actually scared me for a while. but once i got the speed right, the song got “pretty” easy at the long run. even though i kinda knew this, it’s nice to see you teaching the good way of playing it! keep the good work Mike, i always binge watch you videos. greetings from Venezuela ;)
People like to talk a LOT OF SHIT, but I don't see them putting themselves out there and playing their ass off like you do. Keep up the awesome work man. Some of us SINCERELY appreciate everything you do. Thank you.
Metallica is the band with the most amount of timing mysteries I think. "Fight fire" was never a mystery to me though, always heard it the "right way" (and I hope most people do since the "wrong way" sounds pretty bad, totally different song lol). The biggest mystery to me was always "Frayed ends of sanity", the bridge between verse and chorus. I think a lot of there mysteries has to do with Lars, being an unconventional drummer and putting accents in weird places.
I changed my mind. Meshuggah has far more mysteries. I had to struggle alot to "unhear" their old songs once I understood their music better.
See... it's the opposite for me... I always kind of heard Fight Fire With Fire inside out with the guitar accent and the vocal sounding like it's on the down beat as opposed to the up beat like it really is. And I think it sounds better that way. It sounds weird when I think of it as the up beat.
Frayed Ends, on the other hand, never messed with me. That bridge section always sounded so straight forward to me... and everyone always talks about that riff being so awkward and complicated but I find it too be one of their easiest and grooviest riffs.
I strongly doubt it's intentional unconventionality on Lars' part - more likely he couldn't figure out how the F it's supposed to sound and James got tired of trying to get him to hear/play it right, so they compromised and just let Lars do something he could do that sounded "close enough".
I really doubt most people hear it the "right way". I think when you're a guitar player, you focus most on the guitar riffs and then you probably hear it the "right way" easier. For the casual listener, or listening the song as a whole, it's pretty hard to hear it that way. I think this has everything to do with the start of the song. When the clean intro ends and the guitars swell until the first cymbal crash, the first part of the riff gets a little drowned in the total mix when that crash, kick, bass and second guitar hit on that accent. To me, that immediately puts you on the wrong foot. After that, you get the 'dum... dum... dumdumdum' accents two times before the beat starts. But the second time, instead of doing a crash and kick on the last 'dum', Ulrich does a crash and snare. This gives the idea that that is the point where the beat starts on 1. The snare is also ultraloud, and the kick is a lot less audible. After many years of hearing the song that way and thinking that is right, it's almost impossible to unhear it that way. I try to hear the song the right way, but at full speed I just can't do it. It's harder for me to hear it the right way than the wrong way. At 75% speed I can do it, but at normal speed I get lost straight away, no matter how hard I try. I know it's 'wrong', I know how it should be, but I simply can't unhear it unless I try really, really hard.
I see that he does alternate picking in the intro... Does Metallica actually play it this way or do they down pick
?
It's amazing because when I heard this riff the first time I went like "mhm, this seems pretty straightforward tempo-wise", but after years it turned out to be more complex than I thought it was.
Well... the tempo (speed) is the same no matter what. Maybe you meant the meter or the rhythmic pattern?
They do this with the Blackened riff too. I always knew this with Fight fire with fire and riffs like this since the riff after suddenly jumps on you / missing a beat before it starts
Damage Inc also
Yea i realized it on blackened too and now i see i wasnt crazy
elguitarTom Yeah I realized that on Blackened, I’ll play the riff with the song and I always get off beat.
also on battery
Gosh. This part was the simple part. Is the B part before the verse that always stumped me. Until Uncle Ben taught it on Weekend Wankshop a couple weeks ago.
Uncle Ben is the best.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^WHAT HE SAID^^^^^^^^^^^^
This channel is such a safe space for me. Fun videos covering esoteric subjects like this. Plus you can never tell when this guy uploads his videos because he doesn’t age. It’s comforting.
Great explanation - Years ago, I worked hard to figure out what was really happening, and it turns out it's really James' fault.
As soon as he starts barking, his vocals hijack the "one" and I'm out until he stops.
I've been listening to this song since it came out and that kink still owns me.
By the way, the same thing happens to me on Van Halen's "Get Up" off 5150.
Battery is very similar to this. Do Battery next. (Then Blackened after that... yeah Blackened)
With Blackened that’s because it’s in 7/8 so it’s slightly different but yeah Battery and even more so, Damage Inc. I’m seeing/hearing it quite a lot
Funny how it's all of the opening songs to their classic albums
Do this with Battery please!
I always get confused when playing the battery riff and I'm not sure why. Could you try figuring it out?
What riff exactly are u talking about?
I would guess you're taking about the main riff. I hear it fine and it makes sense in my head but if I tried to count or play it it would all fall apart
Yep, battery is another one. If you get the tab for it and play it without the original drum track it suddenly makes sense. The first seven notes are a gallop rhythm and then the first power chord is on the off beat.
It's a really fun riff when you get it! (No means to brag but. . . Uhh:. . I got it on my first try. ..) dududu-dududu-diidiidu-dududu-dududuu-diidiiduudi
edit: dududu-dudududduu-diidiiduudi
@@raxim42 Yea it's a bitch to try to figure out. I just played along with the battery guitar track until I hit most of the notes, and then tried to make sense of it for weeks
then I got to the verse x)
Brother, thank you so much. I have been searching for this video for years. I've been struggling my whole life to hear this correctly. Exactly what I needed and have been seeking. Thank you!
I totally get you, it’s like an aural illusion. It happens in Damage Inc. as well, which I find very difficult to drum to because of the “on-beat” and other switcheroos in the beat, but this is a great video which is very helpful, great counting too!
Whenever I listen to the original, I can hear it the right way until James starts singing, and then it just evaporates.
Thank you for making this, it has bugged me for 30 years. Right up there with the hi-hat intro on Zep's Rock and Roll.
It's a fun exercise to mentally switch between hearing the different beats. Flip back and forth. I do this often with alot of music just for fun. Crazy how many ways you can hear the same music.
There's a lot of songs that are like this actually (I'm referring to heavy metal songs). I was always aware of this, and you're right about the part of your ear pulling you back into thinking the snare is the downbeat when the snare is in the upbeat really. I'm glad I found a video that really explains this thing. I always knew about this but I couldn't find any words to explain it to any non musician lol. Great vid!
This genuinely blew my mind. It all makes sense now.
It’s so wild that you made this video because I remember hearing this song when I was like 15 and hearing the “right” way and then getting older and not being able to hear it that way at all, like the song was completely different.
surprisingly I've been doing it right all these years, but thx for pointing this out
BRG I’m the same on this riff, its the following riff that always stumped me...
as a drummer of 30+ years, i always knew something was up with that riff! now i know :)
It's the vocals that's really fucking with me.
Huge kudos and huge thanks, I've been waiting for a video like this forever. I guess I was just too lazy to try it myself. Since I was 16 I guess it wasn't necessarily a mystery although I referred to it as such… I simply gave into the fact that, largely because of the speed of the song and what Lars's obnoxiously typical drumming forces many of us to hear (as you well stated), that I would also always hear the upbeat as the down and the downbeat as the up. This video is a revelation. Even the different drum beat was an instant help. Great job.
...and this is one big benefit of playing both guitar and drums. You're concious of things that help you solve this kind of problems.
I think the key to getting this riff down as a guitarist is to just go for it. Don't worry if you get turned around on the power chord stabs on the verse as long as you transition to the "pre-chorus" riff right after the last power chord stab. If you keep trying to guess the downbeat, you will 100% fuck it up.
something tells me Lars didnt really plan this out.
a lot of Metallica's 80s stuff has this on-beat drumming, check again.
@@AyedRUclips but I think that's just Lars' style. People like to overcomplicate his drumming, and that's not to sayit's simple, but he just plays what he feels is right, and since he has such a strange style, it makes it sound like its forced
your youtube name is hilarious
It's great to analyze music. I've found in some songs, phrases start and end early or late, creating counting issues. A simple example would be the chorus for Fight for your Right,
If I'm right, it's three bars, the first pause an 8th note early, the two shots on the first two 8th notes of the second bar and I believe five 8th note snare hits ending the third bar. I'm probably not 100% right, but it feels right, and it needs some calculations to help band mates get through it. I'll probably have better luck with this Metallica song since you've cleared it up, that also helps me with some other fast songs I've been trying to learn. Great lesson!
Yeah I always perceived there was something weird about that song 😄
I’ve had the same issues with Battery and Blackened. I just started to hear Blackened “correctly” after 20 years and it feels like a whole new song.
Is it weird i've always heard Blackened both ways? Even before i knew what beats and off beats even were i noticed there were 2 versions of the main riff i heard in my head and i wasn't sure wich was the correct one (or if they sounded different at all) now that i learned that stuff i can tell one of them was the "correct" one and in the other one i was hearing it on the off beat, and i can even consciously switch between both while listening to the song, i can't hear Battery with the snare on the downbeats even if i try tho
@@Wind-nj5xz Same here, I can still hear Blackened both ways, but in Battery it seems impossible to do that hahaha
Lars and James, and also Megadeth with Gar have that unique sense of rhythm. They were just young adults writing what they wanted and heard in their heads. Your brain thinks quarter note on the downbeats but you have to think 8th note upbeats for the snare drum hits. It really messed with my head as a teenager in the 80’s trying to learn those drum parts.
It’s very obvious with Slayer and Lombardo where the snare is. Silent Scream you know the snare is on the quarter note downbeats during the 16th notes double bass. The final verse is snare on the 8th note upbeats with the single kick.
Soo I've been playing this wrong for 16 years!! What the fuck... 😂
Guitarists now-a-day are so lucky to have access to this sort of info; used to play a CD on repeat and learn it by ear, loved it though! Great vid btw.
This really played havoc with my ears and brain until now, you confirmed what I suspected about it being on the offbeat. Thanks!
I listened to this on cassette hundreds of times. I don’t know when I noticed it, but I always knew the rig to start the way you found here.
Thank you! What’s weird is that I could always hear the snare on the up-beat (Lars did this often), but I STILL couldn’t hear the guitar riff properly. It didn’t help that the production isn’t the best. So grateful you cleared this up!
I've been playing this on the 'on beat' for 22 years....so thanks dude!
The 'audio illusion' ( the ear tending to interpret it as the "on-beat" as opposed to the actual "off-beat" sync on the record ) really starts to creep in from the 2nd bar. I always heard the 1st bar as off-beat and then quickly thought they 'switched timing' and got back "on-beat" from the subsequent bars.
ive asked myself this question since i first heard it on cassette in the early nineties. and now youtube has recomended me the video that solves the mystery
Awesome. I play bass. It has that same beat problem. my ear was also pulling me back to that downbeat and it was messing me up. but now the song makes so much more sense and actually sounds even better.
Thx for sharing this.
I always wonder how Metallica themselves actually feel that beat. Cause if you listen to how they playing the song on the gigs, they always accenting the on-beat so to speak and seemed just dont give a damn. It would never been that confusing if not those wrong accents. Therion's cover of the song, for example, do it justice.
you’re 100% correct that it is tough...if you play & sing the lyrics, it’s way more natural. the good news is that you don’t have to be a fantastic vocalist...the bad news is that i’m still not Hetfield. thanks for the ENTIRE Metallica Series you hammered out!!!
I was lucky because my drummer explained this to me. That was 20 years ago lol
I don't know anything about playing guitar. However, I love watching these technical breakdown videos. While it doesn't mean anything to me functionally as I don't play, it means the world in showing how truly unique the music James and Lars created is and why it had such an impact at the time and why it's had such a long lasting legacy.
This was the first Metallica song I learned 19 year's ago after a year into guitar lessons. I had learned several Godsmack song's, like "Stress" "Keep Away" "Bad Religion" "Situation" and a couple Disturbed songs, but Metallica was the reason I chose to become guitarist, and got me kicked in too learn how too play. There is a confusing tone too the riff, my Guitar Teacher slowed it down so he could hear it correctly, and teach me it correctly obviously. "Fight Fire With Fire" well always be one of my favorite Fast, Angry, Aggressive, Pounding Riffs that James ever wrote. They're all close to 60, and are currently making a new album, I love Metallica. Cool Vid, and Killer Jackson and Guitar Tone man.🤘🏻🤘🏻
Right on. Yeah, I would kinda hear these things in riffs when I was a kid listening on my walkman and then discovered them even more when I started playing guitar in my teens. We always called it "beat displacement". I found a lot of it in the SOD - Speak English Or Die album and Anthrax - Persistence of Time. ...yeah, I'm in my 40's. Laughed when you started talking about the Les Claypool leg.
25 years playing, can play every metallica and megadeth song near perfect, still CANNOT get my head around this! Haha! 🤦♂️
What amazes me is that this was being written by 20 year old kids, give or take a year. That couldn’t read music. The nuances of this song and others blows my mind how good they were at such a young age. Remember the complexity of Master of Puppets, the song and the album, is only a couple years away.
That's what happens when you don't have to work
Wow. Thank you for this. You are doing god's work. I always heard it the same way you did, but knew something was wrong because of the transitions.
That's a beautiful Jackson except for the darko sticker.
setmefree 28 guess it’s a good thing it’s not yours
You said you didn't know the technical terms for 'onbeat' and 'offbeat'. I have the same problem, what are the proper terms for is?
I know exactly what's going on there but I can't hear it right when the vocals start. Never.
Me too. I'm a drummer, and until I read the tab, I always thought the snare was on the first count. Now I know how it's supposed to be, but I can never hear it like. I always catch it up in the pre chorus, but as soon as the verse starts again, I'm hearing it 'wrong'. But when you look at the live performance, it doesn't look or sound like Ulrich is playing a polka with the kick on 1,2,3,4, even if you slow it down. I am wondering how they have meant the song to sound themselves.
The biggest issue with finding the timing is that Lars' kick sounds like he's hitting a wet blanket, you can barely hear it through the wall of reverb. Without that to guide your ear, you lock in with the snare and vocal hits, completely screwing up your perception of the timing.
The solution I found? Focus on the hi hat. It's easily audible and has a timing similar to the kick, just faster. If you grab onto that you can hold on to the beat easy.
I used that to overcome 20 years of my ear being conditioned to the wrong way. XD
1:31 Jesus Christ, i know thats slowed down but makes me appreciate the full speed that much more.
The speed of the song, the open chords and singing on the offbeat tricks you and makes it confusing. It always starts on a 1 with a bass-hit and snare on the offbeat. :)
I knew that the beat was off beat since the beginning, but I always just felt it as on beat. This is done with adding an extra 1/8 note to the first measure and subracting one from the last. This might be over complicating things but it was what made most sense to me
Oh my god, this opened my mind and now I actually like the riff better.
This is a really good video because I’ve always thought it was on the onbeat and it really got me confused. It’s finally clear to me.
Fight Fire With Fire is fun to play. I would ask for Harvester Of Sorrow Live 1991. That was the best concert of the song and the best way the song sounded. James Hetfield was energetic to the max and probably the most hyper back then in that concert, plus it drove the Russians crazy!!
Oh my god thanks for doing this! I always knew I was hearing it wrong and was gona put straight drums on it for about 25 years but never got round to it.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ ooooooooooohhh. Jesus. Been a mystery for me for 20 years. Thanks for breaking that down dude!
You can’t tell me these guys new the first thing about timing signatures and technical playing. They were just doing what sounded cool
Cliff played bass since he was 13, playing classic, jazz, rock etc. Practicing up to 6 hours a day. James started by playing piano when he was 9. I think you are really underestimating them.
Brilliant! I don’t know why I hadn’t caught this. It’s the same trick they do in Battery and Blackend. It’s so much better when the chords are heard on the upbeats. Very interesting. Thanks.
I didn't have this issue; could it be that the vocal line kinda indicates that it's syncopated instead of on-the-beat?
Cool video thanks you're a great guitarist....be awhile till i can play like that....my request as ya asked for would be some good ole Motley Crue!
Great lesson. This rhythmic can be clearly heard in the middle of the verses, when after the 2nd riff part it starts with the open E riff part, NOT with G5 chord.
Me counting Blues: 4/4 4/4 4/4 5/4
Me Counting Jazz: 7/8 3/5 7/8 7/7
Me Counting Metal: 4/4 5/4 4/4 5/5
Me counting Dream theather: 7/8 8/9 17/16
Me Counting Metallica: Diriririr DI didi DI didi DI DI DI YEAHHH
Antonio Centeno 5/5?
Tf is 3/5?
Antonio Centeno wtf is 7/7
Damnit, this got me. lmfao
Just a joke nerds i didn´t try to be accurate with the meassures, Get a life.
I thought i heard it correctly up until now, boy was i wrong, thanks my man
Huh I’ve never had to much of a problem with this riff. But now you mention it, you have a clear point.
I can’t play the blackened riff to save my life!!!!! Maybe it’s the down and up beat fricken thing. I can play the riff but never with the song playing at the same time. Thanks
You have the "Justice" tone nailed pretty well.
Jeremy Zenkar but this is off Ride the Lightning
DUDE THANK YOU! THIS IS A HUUUGGGEE ARGUMENT IN MY BAND
I had this completely flipped and I had no idea. Also I would love to see blizzard of ozz for the next riff video
4:29 was all I needed. Thanks!
Cool, man!! The harmony part still confuses me a lot though hahaha
Vinicius Leão de Almeida that parts messed up too lol
I follow the timing of the lyrics. Which I'm pretty sure James did while writing this song. Suppose the confusion comes from when the drums first start, with the on beat crash.
If you want to hear the timing clearly. Listen to the section after the harmonised guitars, when the double kick of the drums is centre. You can hear the exact beat the guitars come back in :-)
So.....are you saying the snare is really the offbeat and not the downbeat?
Haha cool finding an actual explanation of it. As a drummer I have always played that naturally knowing something was weird haha.
Great job decoding this great music. Thank you NICE JACKSON MAN!!!
Thank you for this. This actually helps so much, always struggled with this. The bane of my existence lol
Awesome video! This has been a mystery for years! When the verse kicks in my ear always pulls me to the wrong beat!
Can you do ALL the albums?
I have this same problem with anthrax's caught in a mosh. I know it's a normal thrash beat but I cant unhear it reversed with the snare on the down. Damn their wizardry!
Remembering when I was learning Muse's "Falling Away With You". A much simpler song, not one that screams strange timings, but the verses are accentuated on the off-beats. The chorus is played on the downs though, so when I counted wrong I was suddenly off when it hits.
Ah, the infamous FFWF turnaround. For years as a thrash fan I tried to flip the accents around because I knew Lars' drum part was consistent and I was prejudiced against the 4 snare on the floor Anthrax beat for some reason. But now, I appreciate the tension created by the implied Motown snare and resolution, even if it does sound like James is cutting the last note in half in order to switch the '1' from the snare to Lars' famous gallop kick. (PS Megadeth's Rattlehead also messed me up in the first mix of the album because until the remix the kick disappears during the mid-section when the accents all go to the snare.)
When the snare falls on the upbeat that's often referred to as a "D-beat", made popular by bands like Discharge.
You hear it alot in old school Swedish bands like Dismember.
you know I thought this was going to be about the riff that follows it, the "hard riff". p.s. I like how you give us the finger while playing it lol.
Omg this video makes so much sense, thank you!
My ears heard it the wrong way for years. Even now, knowing the truth, my brain forces me to hearing that riff ON the beat - I can just about manage to concentrate on the music but when Hetfield starts barking it's straight back to the on beat!
One of the most great lesson for a Metallica riffs student
Would love to see you break down some older Testament songs . Those rhythms are so mysterious to me.
Good to see you sticking up for Testament as always. I find some of their rhythms very confusing too.
Frayed Ends of Sanity is full of this timing mind fuckery.
Another fun but rather simple "mystery" is the chorus of Atlanta by Mastodon. The.... "off-beat tapping" makes that song very interesting. Have a look at it!
Yes! This is always how I've always heard it in spite of knowing it isn't technically that way.
Thank you I always felt wrong going to second riff and now I can hear the song properly any time. But I think trapped under ice intro riff is much more confusing I had so much trouble hearing it right. And let's not forget about the most confusing of all them - exodus fabulous disaster verse riff
Ive never tried to play it with the drums and i honestly think it helped because i just go by ear of guitar itself no drums considered
A lot of Metallica riffs are like this, Blackened and Battery being the most obvious examples. I used to think they used the "on beat" drum beat a lot, but I'm not sure if they even use it in any song (all of the songs where I thought they used it are actually using the "offbeat" drum beat). Back when I didn't know that much about rhythm, I always heard the snare in these fast songs as the strong beat (I didn't think about the more complicated rhythms because I didn't play them, I just listened to the music). And because I heard it this way when I was young (and back then I was a Metallica freak so I listened to these songs all the time), it's really difficult to hear these songs in the correct way. I'm pretty sure if I heard the songs today for the first time, I would hear them correctly. I already notice that I have started hearing some of the songs correctly, but in some of the faster ones I still have trouble with feeling the beat correctly. Then again, I don't even play guitar much any more and don't really listen to much Metallica, so this is not something that really concerns me, but I just find it interesting.
nearly every riff they have does that just layer of just a pedal.
lots of songs do that if people would really listen close.you are correct theres even that going on master of puppets.
Честно говоря, никогда не мог подумать о такой проблеме с самым первым риффом. Всё стало на свои места после первого же прослушивания. Вот со вторым уже появились проблемы в плане понимания той хрени, что происходит в ритме) Если будучи новичком попытаться его сыграть на слух, то второй рифф более запутывающий