Allied White Star - Evolution of a Symbol
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- They were everywhere but we don't necessarily ever think about the stars painted on Allied WW2 vehicles. Why did they vary in colour and design, and how did they evolve through different campaigns? Find out here...
Dr. Mark Felton is a well-known British historian, the author of 22 non-fiction books, including bestsellers 'Zero Night' and 'Castle of the Eagles', both currently being developed into movies in Hollywood. In addition to writing, Mark also appears regularly in television documentaries around the world, including on The History Channel, Netflix, National Geographic, Quest, American Heroes Channel and RMC Decouverte. His books have formed the background to several TV and radio documentaries. More information about Mark can be found at: en.wikipedia.o...
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Disclaimer: All opinions and comments expressed in the 'Comments' section do not reflect the opinions of Mark Felton Productions. All opinions and comments should contribute to the dialogue. Mark Felton Productions does not condone written attacks, insults, racism, sexism, extremism, violence or otherwise questionable comments or material in the 'Comments' section, and reserves the right to delete any comment violating this rule or to block any poster from the channel.
Main Source: 'SHOP TALK - I See Stars' by Tom Czekowski, National World War II Museum
Credits: US National Archives; Library of Congress; Imperial War Museum; Raymond Douglas Veydt; Fat Yankee; BrokenSphere.
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The Japanese Hinamaru symbol was referred to by the Americans as a "meatball".
Lol
While taking a training course to upgrade some skills in regards to my job back in the 90's, one of my instructors was a WW2 Canadian veteran. According to him, the Canadians weren't very happy having to mark their vehicles with "Yankee" stars and would sometimes rearrange the orientation of the points - just to be different. He also postulated that the main reason for painting them on was because the "Americans shot the crap out of ANYTHING not marked with one".
LOL
I believe that. Considering that most Americans were ignorant of anything outside of our own country back then (isolationism has both its benefits and drawbacks 😅), most wouldn't know the difference between a Pz IV, a Pz VI, a Churchill, a Cromwell, or a Crusader. It took me a while to recognize their differing silhouettes (and I wasn't pressed into immediate military service either)!
😂
Even today, I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find the average soldier who could rightfully determine any country's vehicle(s) other than their own on a battlefield...
Just like when the US introduced camouflage in the European theater as they had in the Pacific theater , they had to remove them because of friendly fire incidents . Apparently the soldiers seeing camouflage uniforms thought they had to be German because the SS wore camouflage smocks , even though they were not even close to looking the same .
Just look at how an American soldier described a German tank during WWII (and this is from memory, so it's not accurate):
"...the German tanks were huge, with guns the size of telephone poles."
I believe it's from the Battle of the Bulge time period, but those people were doing the best they could with what they had, which wasn't much. I'm not knocking on them. It was just a more ignorant time period in-general, where the only identification systems were experience and a handful of silhouette cards that I'd bet 99% of troops did not see at all until after the war!
@@tyree9055 ‘Considering that most Americans were ignorant of anything outside of our own country back then” ? I guess the internet did not work well back then. 🤔 What is sad is how many are ignorant now while having so many tools to not be
As a military modeler I had often wondered about this, but have been too lazy to research it further. So thank you for saving me the effort by sharing this informative video.
If anything it's the most interesting part of being a modeler. Doing the research. And learning that even until recently there is a large variation in unit marking between individual US divisions.
The irony (in my personal experience, which is modern though) is that every single platoon can have it's own markings as well. One just has to know what it is that they're looking at.
Of course, this is all post 9/11 doctrine (at the unit level, not nationally) and has nothing to do with the older systems found in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.
😉
After D-Day, just the white star was on Lend Lease Vehicles. The invasion star represented American units with "American" equipment.
I don't know which of these is more "heartwarming" 1. Reading Comments all over the internet from people too lazy for research or 2. Seeing the number of Likes that that sentiment gets and/or comments in support of yet more ignorance. Probably, it is 3. Asking questions in the Comments section and expecting the truth with again; no intention of Researching what they've read.
I was an army brat and I know for a fact that the white star was on some vehicles in the early 90s. I remember seeing them, mostly on jeeps buses and older vehicles. The ones that come most prominently to mind were officer vehicles.
The star is still painted on Hummvees, but it is black and only about 3cm tall.
Small stars are still on all wheeled and tracked vehicles. They are very small, and will be either white or tan if on a green/brown paint job, or black if it's on a tan paint job. They are on the front of the vehicle.
Same here dude my father served in the US Army from 74' to 2008. 82nd Airborne and transitioned into the Army National Guard. Back in the early 80's they were still using jeeps and hueys that seen action in Vietnam
Well see the red star was already in use by our communist allies
Dr. Mark Felton is to history what Sir David Attenborough is to nature....a match made in heaven!
Mark's a rockstar.
David Attenborough is a malthusian.
Ill be damned if that isn't a spot on analogy & comparison!🙃😊
Um, no. Felton (as far as I am aware) has never lied to his viewers like Attenborough routinely does now that he is a leader in the climate cult.
@@garywagner2466Good observation. I stand corrected then :)
No obscure detail escapes Dr. Felton's in depth research. Great job.
Brilliant work as always, thanks for posting !
One would think after all the reading I've done on WW II, that the question of these stars would arise.
Nope.
Always leave these segments, a wiser and more informed person.
Thanks Dr F !!
When I was in the Army during the early to mid 1970’s our vehicles had a black stare instead of white.
🙂
@@glennmassengill7400 That’s racist. 😂
It’s a pentagram. Satanic to its core. Shows you who and what is really running this corporation known as the good ole USA 🇺🇸
I had wondered about the accuracy of the white star on non American Allied vehicles, this has certainly helped. Thank you.
Somewhere we have a photo of my Grandfather (a Canadian) standing beside his CMP truck, painted with the white star. Seeing it was when I learned that all the allies used the white star, not just the Americans.
If you didn't want to get killed by Americans then a marking Americans respected was prudent.
What a great explanation. I use to paint that star on all my US armory without knowing why until today.😂😂 Thx Dr. Felton
The roundels on Royal Navy aircraft fighting the Japanese had a "bar" added and the red dot deleted.
This made the roundel resemble the US Navy marking, not the Japanese sun.
The Americans gained a reputation for being trigger-happy, and keen to shoot anything and everything.
The extra bar probably saved lots of British and Commonwealth lives.
Yes, and the Dutch Air Force in the Dutch East Indies/ Indonesia nowadays did not use the orange triangle, but the old pie chart red-white-blue roundel used in the Netherlands. Because the orange triangle could be mistaken for the rising sun. The Dutch Air Force in the Netherlands changed from the pie chart to the orange triangle, because a Dutch bomber was shot down by the Germans over the North sea. Mistaken the pie chart for RAF roundel.
@VIPICCB8 Burma? And when did the Soviets actually enter the PTO?
@VIPICCB8 Your comment contains many errors.
You are clearly a troll and you don't deserve a detailed reply.
@@SgtShnackendale Agreed. VIP is spewing nasty nonsense. He's clearly never heard of the Royal Navy's participation at Okinawa, where the armoured decks on the British carriers saved them from the kamikaze attacks. Or Kohima and the Burma Road. Don't bother feeding the trolls, it'll waste your time and only make them hungrier.
red was also removed from the Blue white red stripes on the tail of RAF aircraft in the pacific
Brazilian troops, in Italy campain, used the white star in white circle as well.
The current chevron on US vehicles is the lambda used on Greek Spartan shields.
"With this or on this."
I was in the YS Army 1968 to 1970. I drove a Jeep and a 2 and a half ton truck with the white star on them. When I go to the VA hospital near me they have a Jeep at the gate with the white star. Good to know the history of it.
Awesome video per usual. Apparently there’s a reason why the Royal Canadian Navy have a green maple 🍁 leaf on their funnels. During the Korean War, supposedly an American aircraft had a ship lined up in its sights and at the last minute the pilot realized it was a red maple leaf and not a red star. Cheers 🍻,take care and stay frosty ⚓️🇨🇦🫡🇬🇧⚓️
Waking up to a fresh war stories with Mark Felton vid. Good start to the day!
Does anyone else get the Mark Felton theme stuck in their heads whenever the mind drifts to anything vaguely military-related? Piotr can’t be the only one.
You're not alone
There was, at least briefly, a black star on camouflaged US Armor in Germany in the mid 1970's. M60A1's , Sheridans , M109's and M113's all had it. That was at Bamberg in West Germany . There was a sand, red and green pattern used at the time.
Always wondering which US Army document finalized the removal of white stars. Must be before the introduction of Abrams.
Well done, thank you. I imagine myself as a Motor Pool Sergeant being told 2 days before an Inspector General (IG) visit they changed the "star," again. SNAFU!
I'm in the Army and I've been wondering about the "pentagrams" painted everywhere. I'm not complaining, I think it's great... makes me feel like I'm in Doom.
Durning the 1970s, 1980s, and perhaps later, the US Army also painted small(approx 7 or 8 inch dia) black stars on it's vehicles. These are still seen on some older vehicles to this day.(I understand that the USAF also experimented with black star insignia on it's aircraft in the 70s and 80s)
Thanks Mark Felton Productions!!
Hello from Detroit Michigan USA Great video Brother thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise and for taking us on your adventure through time
The Star isn’t completely gone. You can see a subdued black star on the front of many vehicles such as LMTVs and Humvees
Thanks for that bit of history, I can imagine friendly fire casualties were a huge problem
Another great video, love the attention to detail - now I can identify specific campaigns based on the star on the vehicle! Thanks Dr Felton!
At 3:30 into the video, on the French Sherman, we see below the star a variation of the Free French flag - a white diamond with alternating red and blue corners. Sometimes this had a Croix de Lorraine in the white diamond.
I really appreciated that last line - thank you Dr. Felton
A most interesting video. I've long followed the evolution of national markings on US military aircraft, but this study of vehicle markings is new to me and much welcomed.
3:50 Excellent tip!!!! Thank you!
You're a hero for providing free educational material, Sir Felton.
Mark. Thanks for providing my Monday night entertainment!
Being a US Army veteran of the late 80s, though the mid-90s, I can tell you we still used the star as a marker back then... It became black and quiet, a bit smaller, and it was centered on the front bumper..Some of the older tucks, like the 2 1\2 and 5 ton trucks had a small white stare off centered on the tailgate. Our older track vehicle where hit and miss. I remember a small black star on the front of the M 88s and some of the M 113s. I must say that one would have to be right on top of the vehicle to see it.
Very few people ever knew that mark.Less than 1% of people knew that,because I have never heard of different stars for different campaigned vehicles.Thank you for that enlightened info MR.Felton.Ya,that's wild.
A lot of us knew that even if you didn't. They also did it for aircraft which is why a lot of us can tell how we know that aircraft was in Operation Torch or Operation Overlord etc.
@@vintagethrifter2114 What was the operation torch markings?
@@vintagethrifter2114 Also,explain "a lot of us".
@@sonyascott6114 Yellow circles around the insignia. Some B-17s had yellow on their vertical stabilizer. By us, I mean people that know their military/WWII history. You'd be surprised how many people think that the Air Force used the B-26 into the late '60s because they don't know the difference between a B-26 and an A-26.
I knew about the different styles of stars used during the war ,what I did not know was that the Brits and Candaians used them also
This answered some questions I have had for a long time. Thanks as always!!
In the 1980s the US Army painted small black stars on the rear of most of its vehicles. I don’t remember seeing them on US Army vehicles after the 1991 Gulf War when most US Army vehicles were painted in the sand/buff color
I have never seen on the rear just the front. They still paint the front with a black star.
Excellent information as usual Mr Felton. Something I've never thought about but I will from now on!
Excellent explanation. Thanks. I often wondered about why Britain adopted the white star.
It's funny I spent a few days last year researching this topic trying to figure out which type of star to paint on a trailer that would be 'appropriate' for a 1941 timeframe. It's interesting how the USAAC is fairly well known for at least early on flying with the traditional 3-color roundel while the army land vehicles never really had any of that memory stick. (Of course the USAAF and USN aircraft went through the same series of revisions to try and make it more distinctive as well.)
Came away from that research learning quite a bit, but mostly that a basic white star was the easiest and least controversial option. Such a niche topic but an impactful one.
Another great story. Interesting and engaging as ever. Love this channel
This was really great and intresting! I diden't know the diffrent star symbols had so much thought behind them.
Great video. Also the crews of these vehicles sometimes painted over the star to hide due to the enemy using it as a target like a bullseye. 😊
the germans changed their cross due to this.
Years ago a Veteran from the early 1950’s mentioned to us that the white paint that was used also had another purpose, it would change color is there was poisonous gas in the area where the vehicle was at. He didn’t mention what era this was started, or when this practice may have been discontinued, but he seemed like he was a knowledgeable source of info from back then. He did serve with the 7th I.D. out of Fort Ord back then.
You do this stuff so well! Even your talent as a narrator is excellent!
Amazing to see this documented! I never knew the difference!
Thanks Dr Felton, very interesting, loving your work.
Very interesting. Not aware of the coloured origins.
Had to re-subscribe as didn't get a notification for this.
Fantastic and informative as always. Well done
It was never completely phased out because if you look carefully at a newish US military vehicle that has full markings there will be a small (2 or 3 inch) black star on the front slope or bumper. There is probably a regulation or treaty on the books that says military vehicles have to have some kind of recognition marking and this vestigially checks that box.
Thank you for sharing
🎖️🙏🏆🇺🇲🤗
Fantastic information, thank you Dr Felton. Still so much to learn about ww2!
The Soviets had a red star, and Putin has a Z.
We still have a white star for military vehicles. The one with the circle is maritime forces (Navy, Coast Guard and Marines) and the star only is used by the Army, Police and Air Force.
Very interesting video! 2 observations though. American army vehicles still use a star - but it's tiny, flat black and is usually found on the bumper. The second observation is cultural. Many Canadians were incensed that they were ordered to paint a white star on their vehicles - they didn't want to be confused as American units. So, in a minor act of mutiny and show of "tweaking the nose of the Americans", they deliberately painted the white star slightly cocked a few degrees to one side or the other. Some units went even further by painting the star upside down!
Canadian passive-aggression is limitless, eh?
The irony being the equipment the Canadians used was likely of US origin and said Made in United States of America on it somewhere.
@@1pcfred Seems like you're underestimating Canadian materiel contributions. 14 percent of Canada's total war production went to the United States (according to the US Army WWII history pdf, hosted on their website).
Half of Allied aluminum and ninety percent of Allied nickel was supplied by Canadian sources during the war.
You are right, at least about their tanks though. The US, Canada and UK standardized around the Sherman, even if the Commonwealth countries made them into Fireflies, Skinks and Kangaroos. American production was adequate for Canadians to end production of licence-made Shermans (Grizzlies).
The Canadian military was much more like the British one than the American one at the time. Similar to how American tank production was adequate for everyone, there's areas where Canadian production was adequate for the Commonwealth in ETO. With that in mind, there's areas where American production would have largely served non-Commonwealth Lend-Lease partners and domestic forces, with the Commonwealth nations taking care of their own needs, based on their own doctrine.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 what percentage of US production was Canada's production? Was it even 1%? I'd be surprised if it was. So 14% of almost nothing is practically nothing at all. I'm not making light of Canada's contribution. I'm sure they did all they could. But Canada is a very weak country compared to the USA. Canada pitched in nickels and we spent billions.
@@1pcfred Of course the country that's more than 11x bigger in population and more substantially industrialized contributed more overall.
That said, Canada contributed about 10% of overall materiel, more than $9.5 billion worth.
Between 1941 and 1945, the U.S. exported about $32.5 billion worth of goods through Lend-Lease, of which $13.8 billion went to Great Britain and $9.5 billion went to the Soviet Union. ~$50 billion overall is the figure PBS quotes.
9% the population, but nearly twice the dollars per capita contributed, close to 1/5th the contributions overall.
Between 1939 and 1945, Canada’s gross national product (GNP) more than doubled; the gross national product of the U.S., as measured in constant dollars, grew from $88.6 billion in 1939 - while the country was still suffering from the depression - to $135 billion in 1944.
All in all it's a bigger contribution (and impact) relative to population and it's a lot more like quarters to dollars than 'nickles to billions' as someone so ignorantly put it. That's not to downplay American contributions, they were critical, but they were far better positioned to contribute (in terms of economy and population size).
Canada's contributions are outsized compared to their small population and relatively underdeveloped economy. That's the point I'm making.
To answer your specific question directly, American contributions were about 5x Canada's. 20% is much more than 1%, now innit?
Yanks show up late and pretend like they did everything just because that's how Hollywood portrays it. 😂🤣
Wish he would do a deep dive on Milton Wolff and the spanish civil war volunteers who went on to be OSS operatives
Another interesting video - thanks Mark!
Long has this been a 'subject' which I planned to find out about. It always seemed a little 'cosy' that our Canadian AFV's and trucks should be wearing US markings. Now I understand that there was more to it than a simple one size fits all stencil at a lendlease factory. Thank Mark.
I'm so grateful for this content. Thank you !
I read the following story: When the Soviets copied a USAAF B-29 bomber that had landed in the USSR after being damaged bombing Japan, the Soviets kept the 'plane and copied it, even teaching their engineers Imperial measurements. They were instructed to copy it exactly, even down to the paint inside, where it appeared that the paint changed inside the fuselage for no obvious reason. Tupolev then asked Beria what colour stars he should paint the finished copy with: If red stars, it wasn't an exact copy, if white, he might be shot as an enemy of the people. Beria was foxed, he had no idea what Stalin wanted, so he told the story to Stalin as if it was a joke, and by the way Stalin laughed he decided which colour stars to use, and told Tupolev. (Source The Liberators, Viktor Suvorov). And by doing this, the Soviets missed out on jet propulsion development as so much effort went into copying the B-29. But Attlee sold them a RR jet engine once they asked.
Atlee Gave Russia 40 Brit Avon Jet Engines as a Socialist good will gesture, in effect Atlee provided the Soviets with templates that made the Mig Jet fighters a potent force in the Korean War. He should have been charged with Treason.
@@ardshielcomplex8917 ...so when did the UK declare WAR on the Soviet Union for this to be treason?
The Americans gave the Soviets the B29 info anyway after the war, the Soviets built their own versions.
@@ardshielcomplex8917 We have to remember that during & after WW2, the Soviets were portrayed as victims who had suffered terribly, so there was much public sympathy for them (which is why they were able to infiltrate the British Intelligence Service).
There wasn't the information on the Soviets we have now.
After WW2 the Allies had to share the spoils of war, but couldn't always agree (like the Americans with advanced German & Japanese submarine tech, who kept it for themselves). Therefore, there was a unofficial tit for tat of technology, to keep the Soviets happy, as the Western Allies feared the Soviets might start WW3 and push westwards.
Before WW2, the Heinkel He111 bomber when being developed, originally used Rolls Royce engines on the testbed, as it's own German engines were having issues, so there was precedent.
Yes the Soviets did get a present of British jet engines, but we'll never know how close they actually were to their own. They would have captured German jets and scientists, and if they can make a working atom bomb 4 years after WW2, which is far harder to do, then they may have been close anyway (especially as they had infiltrated the British Intelligence).
@@eze8970 Well the Commies were in the British secret services before WW2, so that theory falls down.
Dr. Mark Felton: the Master if Minutiae.
The allies had to have a uniform symbol to use on their vehicles so that all the allies would know that the vehicle they just lit up was a good guy . And then of course the usual Oops would then be utter .
More information that l was not aware of.
Thanks Mark 😊
It's always been one of my favorite symbols so I appreciated this video, I never knew the history of it
Once again, I learned something new.
Mark, that was STAR tling ! Thanks.
I always wondered about the different variations
@Mark Felton: That was a short about the Allied used star.
- What about the Red Ball on Allied trucks?! ...from the famous Red Ball Express.
Lots of blacks and Polish were serving in that unit. (...those units? Division?)
Mark Felton's a rockstar.
I have a book on the Sherman tank. There's a picture of one with two holes in the star where a German tank shot it. Some U.S. tank crews painted over the star or covered them with mud.
Always a treat! :)
Excellent topic.
Also probably gave German a/t gunners a useful aiming point. This occurred in 1940 with Polish a/t gunners finding the then almost white Balkankreuze useful to aim at, which is why it deviated to first a yellow main centre, then the black we all recognise.
Nice work.
Wow I never realized how small panzer 2s were
Always Excellent
Great video!
Mark knowns what interests his audience!
The finest of modern War historians.
Mr. Felton, in the United States, we still employ tbe star but it is now quite small and a low visibility color (black or brown) on the center of the vechicle.
Further, next video? When did the Chevron (on its side) appear on allied vehicles? What about the RED Diamond (or square) on U.K. vehicles?
Thanks!! That is great to know. I always assumed it was US only, now I know more, it was all the allies at the end!
They also made for great aiming points for gunners
In 1975 white stars went to black on an OD painted vehicle. Soon after vehicles were painted camouflage in woodland pattern with no stars.
Thanks for this. I've often wondered what the origin was of this symbol and now I know.
Always wondered about the white star, thanks, wasn't the white star used as a point of aim for german gunners as well, seen pictures of a entrance hole near or on the white star
The Germans used a white cross in Poland, which the Polish gunners aimed for, which is why they went for the 'Balkan cross', as it was less visible.
I'd imagine all gunners fired at the point they could see best (especially at longer ranges).
@@eze8970That's why you will see some photos of German vehicles with mud smeared over the white cross during this period.
Fun fact: The P-40 Warhawks in Africa had yellow and black checkers on their tail that were originally white and black. But Allied AA crews mistook them for swastikas, so they changed the white to yellow.
My wish would be an MFP on the American introduction during WW2 of the now commonly used field jacket. Specifically the M1941 which was used extensively until wars end and was superseded by the M43 used in Korea and beyond. The field jacket was a unique contribution and spelled the end of the cumbersome tunics still used by many of
the words armies at that time.
He's not only an expert on WWII but China as well..... I'm starting his book China Station, which is about the history of the British military in China.
a couple of comments. First, apparently during the Normandy invasion, a lot of units were instructed to paint one of the circle segments on the so called “Normandy star” with gas sensitive paint, in case the Germans decided to use war gases. Second comment. When the US Army went to the four color “paint by number” camouflage scheme in the mid 1970s, the star was actually retained. However, according to the regulations, it was reduced to a black 3” star on the front and rear face of the vehicle, which made them indistinguishable from the random black blobs in the pattern at any distance. Not sure if the stars survived into the CARC era.
Thanks Mr. FELTON.
Also the 45th I.D., the "thunderbird" division, which landed on North Africa in June 1943, prior to WW2 had a swastika as its shoulder patch.
Very interesting.
I did wonder about the white star - the Soviets of course used the ubiquitous red star on tanks and equipment.
Nice video
I didn't even see that this was just posted
And of course, the patriotism of the image was adopted by Texaco Oil post-war with their jaunty marching jingle: "You can trust your car to the man who wears the star...", although the company's use of the image long predates WWII and is likely a reference to the lone star state.
*0:48* looks like a japanese flag at the beginning of a James Bond movie.
We still had a black star painted on all the from bumpers of out hmmwvs.
There are white stars and black stars on currently serving Bradley ifv's and Abrams tanks
The white star was replaced with a black one, to blend in with camouflage paint in the 80's, on Army vehicles anyway. I'm not sure if they are still doing this.
If I'm not mistaken, the Soviet captured German tanks also adopted their own version of the white star in order to avoid friendly fire purposes