Drinker's Chasers - The Great Star Trek vs Star Wars Debate
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- Опубликовано: 20 янв 2024
- We're all fans of Star Wars here, and most of us are fans of Star Trek too. Here MauLer dares to ask the ultimate question - which was the better movie; Empire Strikes Back or Wrath of Khan?
Развлечения
I'd like to thank J.J. Abrams for ending the war between Star Wars Fans and Trekkies, and uniting all the nerds in mourning of a lost golden age.
It's just one big crappy JJ Abrams-verse and I don't care for any of that.
@@cejannuzi for some reason throwing all the popular franchises into some "multiverse" is the current cliché in hollywood these days. Like a child using He-man to fight Shredder just because he can't decide on which show was his favorite.
@@Marinealver Yet the funny thing is, crossovers like that can be incredible. Here on yt is a fan video called Galactic Battles - A Crossover Fan Film Featuring: Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo & Mass Effect. The method of crossovers holds vast storytelling potential. The problem is that you'd have to be a at least somewhat skilled writer who has actual love and respect for the things you're crossing over, and not shitting on everything.
@Marinealver some of us are in the afternoon not morning
@@6tiple6ix6afia autocorrect strikes again
When I was a kid there were arguments which one was better.
Today people are sitting in a circle discussing which one was screwed up more😅
Star Wars the movie series that can no longer. Succeed at he box Office or Trek, the TV franchise that no one tunes into anymore?
Both undid prior accomplishments trek by time travel that abandoned the entire original timeline and wars by a time skip that invalidated every accomplishment by the core cast.
I would say Star Wars because it was a cinematic universe first that got downgraded to TV.
And up until prestige TV came along, TV was considered a low-stakes enterprise didn’t really matter. So Star Trek had a lot less to lose.
STAR TREK: 2 iconic shows, 1 excellent show (DS9), at least 4 great movies.
STAR WARS: 2 great movies.
Easy.
Star Wars is worse off now than Star Trek is. I say that because Picard Season 3, though I never watched it, apparently undid some of the damage brought on by the earlier seasons and the other shows.
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119 4 great movies, 3 great TV shows.
"I am your father" might be one of the most famous lines of all time, but Kirk and Spock's final conversation in Wrath makes me cry man tears every time.
Don't forget "KHAAAAAAAAAAANN~"
Live Long and Prosper brother!!!!!
"of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most... human."
One of the best line ever written. Perhaps not as iconic as "I am your father", but more impactful and meaningful IMO.
The whole film had great lines throughout the storyline your only as old as you feel. Sacrificing yourself to save the ones you care about. So many great morals in the story. Even with Kirk cheating on the test doesn't believe in the no win situation. Every scene in ST2 is excellent. @@NedJeffery
Facts
Empire is truly a widescreen wonder.
Look at its depth
Khan is a fine wine.
Definitely. I enjoy Empire every bit as much as I did as a kid, 10/10 film. But Khan gets wonderfully better and better and better upon every rewatch. Also a 10/10 film.
@@Scientist_Salarian Ricardo Montalbán is Khan!
Star Wars started to go massively downhill early on when George Lucas became prominent in the writing, especially in the first three prequels. He was never a good writer. Sure, he had good ideas, but simply having ideas doesn't mean you know how to translate them onto the big screen.
The 80's was probably the peak for both franchises and I loved them both, unfortunately, the reverse has been true for the last decade
Revenge Of The Sith came out in 2005 and it was good. For me, Star Wars peaked there
I would say the 1990's was peak Trek. It's been downhill since.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Peak Trek was DS9, as it was trying to do something different while offering good written stories. Voyager was where the decline started, as Berman & Braga ran out of steam and it showed. Instead of being about a ship alone, friendless and forced to fend for itself in a hostile environment, Star Trek's take on Farscape, it immediately became TNG Lite. And Enterprise saw the same even more exhausted producers try yet again another meh show. Trek should have gone away for a few years. Let the creatives recharge their batteries. Instead Paramount tried to squeeze as much life out of it for its then new network. Of course by today's standards Voyager and Enterprise are Shakespeare, but the people making them should have been allowed to rest by having Trek off the air for a few years every time a Trek show came to an end. IF they had done that Trek would have been a lot healthier and cultural parasites like Jar Jar Abrams and Alex Kurtzman would have been gatekept out.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623
I agree, DS9 was peak Star Trek. I was a huge TNG fan as a kid, but also liked DS9. As an adult, DS9 is what I return to most often.
Facts. I'll take Berman Trek at it's worst over any of this nu-Dreck dogshit. @@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623
I am more of a _Star Trek_ guy but it is _The Empire Strikes Back_ 100%. When Luke and Leia are on the medical frigate looking back toward the galaxy with the John Williams score playing is an unbeatable moment in cinema history.
That moment was insane. Although it was the end of the film for three years that score right to the end took my kid brain and imagination across the stars...to this day that end title is the best ever. What will become of our heroes? That end score made my Star Wars childhood live in another dimension...
This. I'm very much a Star Trek guy, but if push comes to shove, Empire > WoK.
Spock's death is one of the greatest death scenes in cinema history
Saw both in theater, got to go with ''Empire'' because of the biggest shocked I ever had was Vader saying he was Luke's father. The breath went out in the theater.
I would have loved to have been there. The problem is that even in pre-internet 90s, the fact that Vader was Luke's father was so widespread, you knew it before even seeing the movies (thank you _Simpsons_ ).
Went spock fied could hear weeping and screams angry people
@@Banana_Split_Cream_Buns Dude I was there on the first showing Saturday. Didn't have time to hear a thing.
You would think being 12 maybe, a friend of a friend of a friend would have said something but nah!
@@davidchase1439 Problem is at that time, I didn't know Star Trek as well, so yes it was a shock (for me) because he was a main character the impact wasn't as big. Plus I was a bit older when the Wrath of Khan came out. (14)
True, but by contrast, the entire theater was in tears at Spock’s death and funeral.
Both movie reached out and GRABBED audiences right by the heart.
Tough call
In “The Empire Strikes Back”…
A son finds his father.
In
“Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan”
A father finds his son.
Kirk says “… His was the most…human” and he almost mumbles the word human, because he is caught up in the emotions of a human, and the irony of saying that Spock’s soul…
…Was The Most…Human.
That sort of deft and subtle writing ability seems to be lost in the current crop of “screenwriters”.
Yes, then somebody says something that sounds like "hoe dose", the call to arms order or whatever, and then the boatswain's whistle sounds. Both Kirk mumbling and the peculiar word happen. It kinda makes it seem like both might be Kirk. I don't think the peculiar word/order sounds like Shatner's voice, though.
I would amend that.
TESB "My dad's a dick space nazi wizard, OMG"!?
TWoK "My dad's not the dick I thought he was, yay"!?
The second feel gets me in the feels more with spock, but Lukes world view shattered about his hero father was pretty emotionally raw.
That and the simple 'no' when Spock died.
That moment was Shatner’a best ever. So beautifully done. I don’t thing anyone could have done better. So raw and real..
That era was an unbeknown golden age. The sweet spot in pop culture. Who knew or figured “It’s All Downhill From Here”!?
No one. Arguably many franchises were already going downhill by the early to mid 2010s, but from 2016 onward everything suddenly went off a cliff.
Ready Player One is looking more and more likely
As a diverse person, i.e. I like both hot dogs and pussycats, I think the problem was that diversity hiring led to a capture of the writing staff my people who didn't understand and despised human culture, especially third wave feminists, and who only wanted to write material for themselves.
On the flip side, we have to recognize the incredibly authoritarian and even murderous environment that existed for diverse people all the way up to the late 1990s. For example in my city in the late nineties a group of boys drove 40 miles just to beat a young homosexual male until he was no longer alive.
But the fact is, that you have to make product that your customer wants. And if your product only appeals to 3.5% of potential customers, then its budget has to be 3.5% of the size.
And is also a fact that sex sells. Putting attractive young people in sack of potatoes costumes that hide their bodies doesn't result in extra sales.
There was a much cleaner line between prejudice and hatred before 1980, when it was about 35% of the population oppressing 65% of the population.
Today, it's getting to pretty muddy Edge cases that often irritate over 99% of the population. While the principal is the same, the numbers are different.
But in the end business is just business. You can't force people to like something that has no relevance to them.
We got LotR and the Infinity War saga. I think those were the last gasps of great, grand Hollywood narratives.
Now we’re in the era of movies by people that obsess about and can’t move beyond what’s between the characters’ and audiences legs. 🙄
Both Empire & Wrath have a strong human core to their films wrapped around action & sci-fi special effects. Their climatic endings (Vader revealing, Spock sacrificing) are satisfying for everything that built up earlier, and you feel their impacts. To watch them back afterwards, you can see how everything led up to those moments. Both films end on downers but with a gleam of hope.
As a kid, I wore out the tapes on Empire & Wrath, so I can’t even use that as a factor. It really comes down to “am I in a mood to see a film about growing up or growing old and how to handle those moments?” I will say, I’ve long passed the moment of growing up, and I’ll always be growing old until I die, so maybe that’s the factor?
Well said
Couldn’t have said it better myself! Very well put.
Well said, plus both revolve around a group of three friends who are in danger: Han, Leia, and Luke; Spock, McCoy, and Kirk.
Facts
To answer Echo’s question, it’s Sulu (presumably now serving as First Officer in the absense of Spock) who says, “Honors-hup!” to get everyone at full attention for the launch of the casket.
I agree. It was also sulu that removed the federation flag as the coffin was lowered onto the torpedo rail.
But then for them to find out later that they did the worst possible by launching his body out into space. But then for them to find out by doing such a bone-headed thing, they regenerated him.
Starfleet always felt like a blend of NASA and the US Navy and little details like Sulu giving this order gives it a grounded feel
I like that they mentioned James Horner’s musical score. I do not think that it is a coincidence that these two movies have all time great music by two all time great composers.
And originally the producers wanted George to use Disco Music (popular at the time and other movies were using it). Thankfully he didn't listen.
As Nicholas Meyer said, “Before Wrath of Khan I couldn’t afford any composer except James Horner. After Wrath of Khan I couldn’t afford him either.”
Such completely different approaches to music between Williams and Horner, but such unrivaled brilliance from both.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a huge fan of classical music. And I truly believe that future generations will regard film scores as the great classical music of our time. John Williams is widely played and appreciated (our local symphony will be performing a concert of his music next May), but James Horner is, I think, an underrated composer. His work was particularly good in movies that involved aviation, such as "The Rocketeer". His music for the launch sequence in "Apollo 13" is so beautiful , it sends chills down my spine. It's a shame that Horner died so young.
"We're talking about movies from forty years ago. Forty years from now, what will anyone be talking about?" That optimism, reckoning there'll BE a forty years from now.
The same movies from 40 years ago. 😂
I mean Citizen Kane is still a studied movie to this day and it is way older than 40 years. Like books the good movies and shows will remain a timeless reflection of that age while the mediocre to horrible ones will be forgotten into oblivion.
@@Marinealver I'm surprised it hasn't been remade as 'Citizen Jane' yet.
The scene where Yoda lifts the X-Wing out of the water is one of my favorite moments in movies ever...
It is. I’ve actually shown that to my kids as a life lesson for so many things. “I, I don’t believe it”. “That is why you fail”
It also seemed to have affected him quite a bit and may be why he was on his death bed when Luke returned, too much of a strain for his age.
Miguel: "Both."
Tulio: "Both is good."
The Road to El Dorado is 🔥
"Holy ship!!" 😄
Love the Road to El Dorado!! One of the best movies around.
The battle in the Mutara Nebula was set up as a classic submarine battle where the outcome depended on the skill and experience of the captains.
I saw them both in the theater as a kid. As a kid it was Empire. As an adult it is Khan.
Yep, they specifically wanted to evoke the feel of a submarine battle. Both are blind, trying to find the other by "feel." Both knowing one clean shot could be a kill.
"Hornblower in space". Awesome
The "space" battle in Wrath of Khan was a submarine battle. Claustrophobic. Tense. Amazing.
Hell Yeah
@@sterlingarcher3619 True. But I think WoK did it especially well.
They both have HUGE emotional moments. I can't choose between them as I grew up both, a SW geek and a Trekkie. But I remember showing my wife "Empire Strikes Back" for the first time, a few yrs. ago. She's from overseas and never watched "Star Wars" films. (I had to change that.) When we got to the scene where Darth Vader said, "I am your father" -- she was like, "Baby, is that true? "I smiled and told her, "Yup, ... no one saw that coming." Then, the Han and Leia scene unfolded. She was completely hooked!
So, I assume that was one -- how shall I say -- *very* successful date night for you eh.
@@davidanderson_surrey_bc LOL, I think we were already married. I was just happy that she became a fan.
It was a different time .. when sequels sought to ‘level up’. I’m proud to have grown up in the 80’s .. we had THE BEST ERA ever!!
Grew up with Star Wars and fell in Love with Star Trek in my teens. To me they serve such different purposes as pieces of art that it's kind of hard to compare BUT overall affecting my philosophy and my investment makes me pick Star Trek
My daughter & I were talking about this earlier today. She made the observation that "Star Trek" is science fiction, and "Star Wars" is Shakespearian.
It’s very hard to compare these 2 movies and these franchises because they are so completely different. It’s like asking, “What do you like more, pizza or jeans?”
Being a little older I grew up with the original series and that formed the basis of how I judge all sci Fi, I was engrossed with Star Wars because of the action and visuals and the overarching story thread but Star Trek is my first greatest love in science fiction.
Still tear up thinking about Spock's death. Been doing that to me for 40 years now.
Same with me.
BTW, one of the BEST questions ever, Mauler. "Which do you prefer? Wrath of Khan or Empire Strikes Back?" Wow. Great question, especially because, for those of us just old enough to have seen them in the theater, it opens up an hours-long discussion of everything that actually matters. Thank you, Mauler, for that question.
Loved them both. Saw Empire on opening day in Athens Greece in an old opera house theater, it was iconic. Wrath of Kahn had the more intense intellectual battle scenes, it wasn't so much the shooting it was the planning for battle.
And I think Wrath of Khan also has a much stronger Foundation and roots in human culture. Empire only has roots in the monomyth and about 2 hours of world building. It mostly lacks even the roots in Hong Kong Kung Fu Cinema that Star Wars had.
I love both but Empire Strikes Back is more of a one-trick pony than Wrath of khan.
Empire Strikes Back. The last third of that movie was really something special.
It was a bold move that in Empire the good guys lose and its also interesting that for many Star Wars fans its also their favorite Star Wars film
Adults and children alike in those theaters were completely blown away. When Darth Vader tells Luke that he'says daddy. I left that theater with my jaw on the floor and that's all every child I knew talked about for months!
The only things they have in common is that they are both set in space, and both have lazers, and have both been totally annihilated by jj Abrams.
Technically Star Trek has Phasers Roddenbury didn't want to copy things that had gone before
I think none of the J.J. Abrams movies combined did to Star Trek, what The Rise Of Skywalker did to Star Wars. It’s imo quite obvious that J.J. Abrams truly hates Star Wars.
Star trek wasn't annihilated
Both amazing films but I'm going with Empire Strikes Back. The emotion and shock that movie brought me as a kid was just burned into my memory forever. The music, the lines, the acting, the CGI, the romance, the action... just everything 👍🏼
When I return to Star Trek, it's like returning to old friends. When I return to old Star Wars I feel ... young.
Max Headroom wound up being more prescient sci fi than any of them.
And it thankfully has not been remade yet.
Whelp, You just gave the AI overlords the idea...drat!
Cough Vtubers cough
I mean instead of exploding TVs we had exploding smart phones.
Nothing GREAT about Star Wars or Star Trek anymore
Sadly true
Their past holds up,mostly.
their red headed step children are the shame of the family at large.
@@IRMentat that’s exactly what I said ⬆️
@@chasehedges6775 Jar Jar Abrams ruined boffa
Great question and debate. I saw Star Wars as a kid several times in the theater, waited 3 years for Empire, the trailer was so good, the ending saber battle was unforgettable. The Wrath of Khan I did not appreciate at the time but I just love it now. Hard to pick a favorite.
Drinker: "Which is your favorite: ESB or WoK?"
Everyone: "Yes."
This debate was too short. 😊
I see no debate. These are very different visions. One is pure space fantasy, the other is a embellished vision of potential future for humanity.
I agree with Gary, Empire is a better narrative, with its (if I may say) subverting of our expectations. Wrath of Khan is simply more relatable, with its themes of friendship, ageing and utilitarianism.
Also, Star Trek The Motion picture is a great film! Great premise and that sceen where we approach the enterprise for the first time, has stayed with me since I saw it as a boy.
I always have to get in a defensive stance when I tell people I enjoyed The first Start Trek movie. The scene with the D5 coming out of the nebula has been seared into my brain.
Absolutely for me Empire is more rewatchable but Khan is great. but also Spock dying in Wrath Of Khan i think genuinely traumatized me as a kid, and it all comes rushing back whenever i watch it.
At this point? That's like a boxing match between two people exhumed from the Paris Catacombs.
@@docwhammo
Welp, you clearly think you articulated a brilliant point.
Congratulations on that.
(I shouldn't be too harsh. After all you've only been on youtube for EIGHTEEN YEARS. That's really not much time to brush up on your writing skills.)
@@invisibleacropolis8195
You sound like a drunk toddler on a hot mic trying to have a conversation with Eddie Bravo.
(You're literally too dim and incoherent to smack talk anyone. Memetic algorithmic nonsense have turned you into a worse communicator than the cheapest AI known to man.)
@@invisibleacropolis8195
8 years on youtube, and you still sound identical to a 13 year old remedial student with no hobbies trying to fill the empty hours with negative attention from strangers.
Just like a 6th grade class clown- only pushing 30.
👍
@@invisibleacropolis8195
Y'know, I've tried 3 times to mock you sarcastically for sounding like a petulant infant (despite definitely being in your 20s).
But your algorithmic nanny feels you're not ready to hear it.
(Or you're reporting comments as they're posted like a class snitch. Either way, well done acting like the teenager you're desperately pretending not to be.)
@@invisibleacropolis8195
Wouldn't it be awesome if your musical aspirations hadn't withered on the vine 10~ years ago?
Then you'd have a real hobby in lieu of what you do with your free time now.
I'm genuinely shocked that this would even be a debate. I mean I know people like the wrath of khan a lot but wow I had no idea so many people would choose that over Empire.
I watched all 6 shatner star trek movies when I was in my mid 20's and they all made very little impact on me. I do remember thinking Khan was the best one but that really isn't saying much. I just walked away from it thinking what's the big deal?
I don't know, this just feels like a silly question to me. It's Empire by a light year.
For me, never got into star wars. Navy man all the way, majored in history. So watching futuristic ships doing battle at sea, er, space... friggin awesome. Add to that the themes of friendship and aging with comrades. TWOK by far for me.
I have friends that would likewise not understand how Empire Strikes Back could even compare to a masterpiece like Wraith of Kahn. That you don’t like one of them is kind of a dead giveaway that you are just on one side of the extremes. It’s ever only a debate for people in the middle of the extremes.
The Star Trek movies have to be taken in context of the tv shows. The movies tended to be just action movies, whereas the tv shows were much more thought-provoking science fiction.
@@davidgantenbein9362
If we're all being honest, Empire is a MUCH more acclaimed movie. It shouldn't be surprising at all to a Khan fan that people would choose Empire over Khan.
The line after Kirk says "He was the most...Human." is actually Sulu calling the honor guard to attention "Honors, hup!". Only caught it from the novelisation. Always thought it was Kirk breaking down at the end his sentence.
It was Kirk breaking down at the death of Spock and trying to hold it back
I love wrath of Khan, But Empire was just a mythological wonder from day one, I still firmly believe that Empire is the best sequel ever made.
Empire Strikes Back is one of the best movies EVER made. It’s cinematic perfection in every scene.
I love the Wrath of Khan and it has thought-provoking things to say about friendship, careers, ageing, and life plus it has some great action, but it's biggest emotional moment is undercut by some incredibly heavy foreshadowing. Empire hits so much harder on an emotional level - the music, "I know," "I am your father," Luke's failure in the cave, ending when the chips are down for our protagonists, etc while matching or exceeding Khan's action.
Khan's morning stretches, after waking from his slumber (in the 1960's Star Trek series) were truly ASTOUNDING! 🧘🙏 However, I'd have to choose "Empire." Lucas, and the Galaxy he created, are responsible for my imagination and fandom of Cinema. I'll always be in debt to Star Wars.
This is one of the great questions of all time. I was blessed to see both of these films when they came out. As for myself I go with Wrath of Khan, but only by a whisker. Empire is a wonderful film and has one of the best moments in cinema. However, Wrath is a deeper exploration of friendship, sacrifice, aging and obsession. Kirk goes through a lot in that film - and Spock's sacrifice and final goodbye is one of the most emotional scenes in cinema.
Being 72 years old and having seen TOS when it aired along with meeting Kahn Singh in “Space Seed”, “Wrath of Kahn” made quite an impression on me as it was also a sort of redemption for the tragedy that was “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”.
On the other hand being a life long science fiction reader and having read the book first, Star Wars the movie blew me away by being so faithful to the book.
Even though I'm younger, I still saw most of the TOS episodes before I saw the movies. Definitely one of the benefits of growing up before streaming because they played a lot more repeats on broadcast TV that I wanted to see back then and truthfully there weren't as many TV shows in existence anyway. Overall as a franchise, I like Star Trek more, but I like the Star Wars movies more than the Star Trek movies, with the possible exception of First Contact.
Wrath of Khan. What is this, my 90s schoolyard? ;)
The funeral dialog was “order arms” but it sounds like “odo” which is a thing that happens to some recruits calling out orders in real life. George takei is the one who says it
Both movies are very good, but as a Star Trek fan, even I have to give it up to Empire. It's on a different level cinematically. I enjoy Star Trek II more and you can debate which is the better story, but there isn't much room for honest debate when it comes to the grand scope that Empire brings.
I also think that the pop-cultural impact of Star Wars is much higher. For almost two decades it was all based on only three movies. In Australia, Jedi is an officially acknowledged religion. Star Trek on the other hand had decades of good quality output but i think didn’t got the same kind of emotional connection and is more intellectual. BTW: it’s easy to like both because one is science fiction and the other is fantasy.
@@janhofmann3499 I guess it depends. When it comes to popularity among the mainstream, there are highs and lows for both franchises.
Star Wars had it's highest point in the late 70s to early 80s and had a resurgence in the late 90s through the early 2000s, but nothing coming close to it's original highs. It's currently getting another resurgence, but given the mixed reaction, that may not last as long and like the last resurgence, does come close to the original.
Star Trek had a much longer high from the late 70s (when cult fan base became a major phenomena) through the late 90s with no real decline. In fairness, it had 15 years of constant TV shows. Something Star Wars didn't have. But it's also never had a real resurgence. Since 2009 there have been attempts, with very mediocre results.
As far as which one had a greater impact? Again, it depends. Influencing science, technology, writing, social impact, it's Star Trek. As a fantasy adventure that has staying power to simply entertain, it's Star Wars. I submit, that hundreds of years from now, if people are still watching any of our entertainment, it's more likely that they will watch Star Wars than they will watch Star Trek.
When we've achieved a lot of the things in Star Trek that are possible(space travel, colonization, eradicating social and economic ills), then the show is just a bunch of morality plays. With Star Wars you're not getting a lot morality or practical science out of it. There is some, but It's mostly just good fun.
@@josephmassaro I agree and ad to that: ST tackled social issues while SW was focused on personal fates and developments. One was meant to improve real life, the other to escape it. Apples and oranges but both are able to teach you something. I hope that future generations will still watch the SW-OT (and in it’s original version!) because it’s these three movies that generated all that and are in my opinion the only thing SW worth watching. Back then i felt sorry for a generation of kids who grew up with the prequels and nowadays i hope that parents prevent(ed) their kids from watching the sequels and all the other modern stuff.
@@janhofmann3499 I think they will. Who knows, maybe Star Trek's holodeck will be a thing in the future and you won't watch Luke Han and Leia, you'll be them.
Star Trek II TWOK is the first movie I can recall seeing at the Drive-In Theater with my father when I was a little kid. I was terrified of earwigs for decades after that movie lol But I have to give my vote to TWOK simply because it really is one of my earliest movie going memories.
My god I remember being terrified of earwigs for the same reason.
Same haha! We used to capture earwigs and throw them at each other because the movie made us all so terrified of them.
Empire is the winner for me, I was always more into Star wars but as such I actually love both just as much because they are quite different to each other. I love the original Star Trek tv show and the original films.
Wrath Of Khan is awesome and I love The Motion Picture too. Overall I have a deep appreciation for the amazing ground-breaking films we got in the 70s and 80s. Star Wars and Star Trek are to be appreciated as two separate things both excellent in what they are.
Yes I am at that point in my life where I'm 51 years old now and older than William shatner was when he was in Star Trek 2
Thanks to this conversation, I rewatched "Empire". What struck me is how much the stories resemble each other.
In each, an important subplot is the relationship of father and son - in particular, a son who does not know his father, but loathes him by reputation, with the son ultimately being reconciled to the father - though in Luke's case, the reconciliation takes place in the next movie. (BTW, it's a shame that the actor who played Jason in "Khan" wasn't up to the job. His reconciliation scene with Kirk should have been much more powerful than it was.)
Another important subplot is the death of a loved one. In "Empire", it's the apparent loss of Han Solo; in "Khan", it's the apparent death of Spock. In each, too, a main character realizes only after the fact how much the loved one meant: in "Empire", Leia can only admit her love of Solo when she's losing him, while in "Khan", Kirk can admit the depth of his affection for Spock only at Spock's funeral.
Both stories, too, are about the overcoming of a foe who is motivated by hatred. And both climax in the renewal of life.
"Khan" does have one subplot that is missing from "Empire": the coming of old age, and one's acceptance of the passing of time. Not all of us have sons, and not all of us have to combat hate-driven foes, but ultimately we all face Father Time and his scythe.
That being said, the two movies are both well-told stories. And I think that well-told stories have more in common than appears at first glance. At the very least, fans of each film can appreciate the other film's quality of story telling, and the power of its story.
I'm not taking anything away from Empire but "I am your father" isn't a meme, "KHANNNN!" is. It has become one of the most iconic lines in movie history, the raw emotion put through that line. It's a line that needs no context for anyone listening to it, it speaks for itself, you know precisely what's going on in a general sense. The _"I_ am your father" line is meaningless without context so I just don't believe it has the same resonance outside of the story if you play that line to someone who hasn't seen Star Wars, so from that perspective I think WOK has the more memorable line. As for the movies themselves, I don't think they can be compared since WOK is pure Sci Fi, Empire is swashbuckling fantasy movie set in space.
People that dont even care about these kind of things know about the I Am Your Father line but i think only people that are into these kind of things will have any idea what Khan is and what its supposed to mean.
And usually i dont think something becoming a meme is a good thing because that usually means that nobody can take it seriously anymore and everybody just sees it as a joke.
@@CyberLance26 No they don't. There are loads of people who have never seen Star Wars, know absolutely nothing about it, so if you go to one of those people and play that line then ask them what's going on in that seen, they aren't going to know. You go to someone who has similarly never seen WOK or even Star Trek in general, they won't know who Khan is, they won't know who's screaming his name, but they can tell you what's going on in the scene, that someone called Khan has done something so egregious that whomever is screaming his name has completely lost his shit, because that's the difference. 'I am your father' is one of the greatest plot twists in the history of cinema, but if you don't know the plot, it tells you nothing. If you disagree with this then prove it to yourself by going to someone, ask them if they've ever seen Star Wars and if they haven't, speak that line and ask them what's going on in that scene. I guarantee you they haven't a clue.
You're kidding... right?!
I think the order given after Kirk says, "...his was the most human" was given by Sulu.
Pretty sure it was Sulu calling the honour guard to order, with a very convincing tremble in his voice.
Saw them both, as a 10 year old and a 12 year old. Love Khan, but Empire was awesome! I saw Empire 10 different times the summer of 80, it's my all time favourite movie. But what a glorious era to be alive in...between those two movies is another classic...Raiders of the lost ark! The 80s were the best era.
I do feel like they discounted the maturity of empire and overlooked how philosophical the dagobah scenes are, especially the cave.
The way they touch on the fact that evil dwells inside us all is very powerful.
Empire was about growing up and getting wiser, while Wrath of Khan was about getting older and lamenting youth. Both were great for what they were trying to portray, but Wrath of Khan just spoke to mortality and inevitably, and spoke to a friendship that reached beyond the screen.
Both movies made an impact because the good guys were getting stomped on, but Wrath of Khan had the larger impact because it had a more focused conflict to resolve.
As a kid I just remember the Hoth battle being terrifying with the giant At-At’s and every step was a loud thud and they seemed so unbeatable.
Both are outstanding, but for me it’s Wrath of Khan. There are several reasons, but the key one for me is that, as I’ve revisited it as I’ve gotten older, different themes resonant and stand out more significantly based upon where in life I was when I watched the movie and the life experiences I’ve had as I’ve gotten older.
Seeing Wrath of Kahn as a kid is the reason why, at 45yo, I still choke hearing Amazing Grace on the pipes.
Star Wars was the coolest thing I had ever seen as a kid and I still get giddy watching it, but Star Trek is what I remember watching with my parents and that's how I bonded with them growing up so it's got more of the emotional pull for me
As someone who loved both, I appreciate them both for the dramatic moments they delivered, with exceptional performances, but only Wrath of Khan made me cry. When Spock dies, then his funeral scene, I cried when I saw it, and I still do now, so Star Trek 2: Wrath Of Khan gets my vote.
It only took the scourge of Bad Robot and its subsidiaries to unite Star Trek and Star Wars fans.
To bad we can't have this debate now both franchises dead in the water.
As a 56 year old who grew up with both, I've never really seen the point in the debate. The two franchises are so different where it matters that I can look at them independently.
However, if I have to pick one, I guess it's Wrath of Khan. The big reveal in Empire was huge, but also pretty much just a shock moment. In Wrath of Khan, we lost an old friend. I'm reminded of what Edith Keeler said about Spock:
"[to Spock]You? At his side. As if you've always been there and always will. [to Kirk] And you... you belong... in another place. I don't know where or how... I'll figure it out eventually."
That was never more evident than in that death scene. Even then, Spock was more concerned with his friend/captain than anything to do with himself. It's the exact opposite of what we saw in TMP where Spock is actively distancing himself prior to the mind meld with V'ger. Spock had spent years denying who he was and finally came home. Star Trek is pretty much defined by the Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio. At the time it came out, Star Wars simply didn't have that kind of history yet.
For me, Empire as a kid. Wrath of Khan as an adult. Loved them both then. Still love them today. But to pick between the two changed, as I did.
Lemme cause people to break out the pitchforks. The most emotional, impactful moment was not, "I am your father" or, "The needs of the many." It was, "My God Bones. What have I done?!"
Empire truly is and always will be a worldwide wonder of cinema that is beloved by millions.
Wrath is part of a franchise that has influenced the world in both storytelling and scientific circles for it is like a fine wine 🍷.
Empire feels like the better produced and directed movie. I watch Wrath of Kahn much more often. It's more relatable.
Even as a 12-year old child, I understood and deeply empathised with Kirk's aging; and appreciated the depth of the idea that, well; life goes on.
You're the hero one minute, background character another - and the world doesn't end at the credits. What do the characters do, after their moment, after their prime?
Can they still matter?
I felt it then, and that feeling never dulled through many years of re-watching.
Tough choice: Darth Vader is a more menacing antogonist, but Khan is more personal.
I grew-up on TOS "Star Trek"; it is still fun to watch and unlike anything else. It was many years later that I learned that James Doohan landed at Juno Beach, and was wounded. *That's* why "Scotty" had such a bad-ass vibe and dry sense of humor.
I was one of countless teenagers who saw real "Star Wars" in '77 with my Dad and some buds (and saw it several times then); it is still fun to watch and unlike anything else.
Wrath of Khan or Empire Strikes Back? Both! They are both fantastic movies. I always come back to Wrath of Khan though, for its superb characterisation and depth of storylines.
By the way, during the burial in space for Spock, I believe that final word after Kirk’s eulogy is Sulu in the background yelling out “Honors”
I had to go watch Spock's funeral scene after this and amusingly the first comment was from the Drinker.
Two of the best sequels ever made. Picking a favorite of the two is like picking a favorite child.
I'm old enough to have seen all those movies in theatrical release, as a young adult (and I watched The Original Series when it, um, originally aired), and I'll you the impact of WoK and ESB even on adults was huge. In the late nineties, in preparation for the start of Star Wars' second trilogy, LucasFilm re-released the first three films all nicely remastered and (as I recall) with a few extra bits thrown in. I took my teenage son to see them and he instantly fell in love with them. One of the best bonding moments of my "family man" career.
Well funk me, gonna hafta watch WoK again tonight! Maybe back-to-back with TESB
Sidenote: i am re-watching the episode "Space Seed" now & I'm reminded of the playful humorous banter among Kirk, Spock, & McCoy that was further developed in the movies. I can't believe I'd forgotten that was such a part of TOS
I lost my job in a bookshop because I was a trekkie vs a gang of SW fanatics. They didn't risk anything from me, but I risked everything from them. So you can guess where my hearth goes. True story.
Wrath of khan for me too....I had both as a kid on betamax (or VHS can't quite remember) I just remember replaying the attack on the enterprise 100 times in slow motion hahaha.... As an adult now at 47 Kirk's "of all the souls I have encountered upon my travels, his was the most..... Human" still gets me every time..... And James Horners score was amazing!
WoK was the first movie I saw in the theatre as a kid. Scene with the brain slug really stayed with me.
0:20 If the "impact on me in my formative years" was the criteria, it would be Empire. I was on the edge of my seat waiting to for them to go save Han... and then the movie ended. I had never seen a movie in the theater that did that before.
When you consider the current state of the movie industry and what goes on behind the scenes we are lucky to have such great films at all.
I worked in movie theaters when both Empire and ST:TWOK came out and we LITERALLY SHIELDED the incoming audiences from people coming out CRYING THEIR EYES OUT as they left Wrath. We actually provided a box of tissues after a few showings as there were literally people walking out with tears streaming down their faces.
There was a similar situation with audiences not spoiling the next show who was waiting in the lobby. But mostly is was about "Oh, you'll see".
But with TS:TWOK the next audience SAW some some bad crap went down.
I have NEVER seen a more emotional reaction to ANY film while I worked in movie theaters for over 20 years.
Empire was the first movie I saw where the good guys kept loosing. But you knew they would all be there for the sequal. However in Khan there was the chance for real loose because, at the time, we were not sure if Spock would come back.
Todays movies, when someone dies, the fist question is "How will they bring him back"....ie, Tony Stark (cause you know they want to bring him back).
This is easily one of my favourite clips from the streams
Gotta go with my boy Magnus here. Definitely Empire Strikes Back.
I love TWOK but imo it's also when Star Trek began to chase Star Wars in the sense that they thought action movies would be more successful. In my opinion Star Trek is at its best when it sticks to its own identity. Action is allowed, but it should come second to a more philosophical core. And action-wise they'd never be as good as Star Wars. So I appreciate Star Trek more when it keeps doing its own thing. Hence why I agree with Nerdrotic about The Motion Picture being the most Star Trek of them all. I love that movie.. It's my favorite of the Treks. Many people consider it too slow or boring. That's understandable, but then you probably were never too much into Trek to begin with. Maybe that's where the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate began? The two having almost nothing in common, but rather being 2 totally different space adventures.
I believe the line in Wrath of Khan (it may have been Cmdr Sulu who spoke the line, from memory) was "Honours - up", as in 'stand to attention everyone' when Spock's torpedo coffin goes along the runway to the launcher.
Being raised by a hardcore fantasy and sci-fi addict(my dad) I love the genres in general,but when I was 3 years old my parents took us to see Star Wars,and I've been in love with it ever since. And even though we watched the old ST reruns on old analog television (imagine that!😂)I never thought of myself as a Trekkie,
also when Wrath Of Khan came out our parents took us to see that one as well,only I had an earache at the time and the earworm scene scared the hell out of me(hey,I was like 8 or 9 at the time,lay off!)
ST - WOK without a shadow of a doubt.
It lives in my head rent free every day + probably always will.
Also, ST - TMP is a sci-fi work of art too.
An absolutely misunderstood classic of its time while it’s themes are timeless.
(It also introduces the most graceful beautiful starship design of all time, the re-fit Constitution...)
You tube theatre reactions to Empire Strikes Back 1980’ people were literally screaming when Vader Cut Luke’s hand off
It's probably career-limiting, but I'd love to say, "WHAT have you DONE with those plans?" at a design review.
Trek always had it for me, not sure why, probably found it more believable for some reason. The Spock funeral always had me in floods of tears and the bit where his voice breaks is when he says "Of my friend, I can only say this: of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most... human." Jeeze, misting up even thinking about it now!! If I hold it that long then I loose it as soon as the bagpipes start up. Compare to when they kill off a much loved character in StarWars and I just shouted "Oh fk off!" at the screen; just not the same.
Wrath is my favorite movie. So, it wins.
The biggest "issue" that I have with Empire is that I watched it a million times when I was very young. The "I am your father" scene never hit me hard because of it.
Meanwhile, I discovered Wrath as a teenager. Wrath has incredible dialogue - Shakespearean. Some of the best ever. The space combat is the best space combat has ever been done. The Spock death scene is Niagara falls for me. Most emotional scene ever. And so on. Wrath is amazingly good.
Remember that episode of Futurama about the "forbidden" texts? There was a crack at all nerds. The star wars trek, and the star trek wars. I thought it was funny :P
@6:27- It's Sulu. He says " ORDER, ARMS!" which is the command given to troops to complete the rendering of a salute
Both Wrath and Empire represent the peak of their Movie franchises. You can’t go wrong with either but Wrath of Khan ends up my favorite movie of all time. So much in it even my wife who doesn’t really like trek, enjoys it.
Both franchises are both great in their own right; it depends on your preference. 🎉
For me I can't decide. They are both great films
Empire especially if you are young.
ST2 more so as an adult.
I think the line after Kirk's eulogy is "Honours, ho!" Meaning, traditionally to the honour guard to raise their rifles. And it's spoken by Sulu.
I wasn't sure which was more impactful on me. Empire was the first movie I saw in the theater. But Khan was the first VHS tape we owned. My siblings and I watched Khan over and over and over again. We'd quote it to each other (still do). Given all this, I'd have to say Khan has the edge over Empire.
Tough choice, though! They're both very good movies.
I grew up in the '80s, and Star Wars was everything to me back then. It wasn't until TNG that I really got into Star Trek, and even then I was more of a casual viewer. I've since seen all of the Star Trek films, with the exception of Nemesis. I got about ten minutes into Nemesis before I checked out. I like Star Trek and Star Wars, but my go-to film series is Star Wars for sure.