I think you should consider doing a 'total aero package' test. Which combination of products provides the greatest net benefit...it may not just be the best in each individual category.
I feel that many RUclips comments on aero videos forget the ground speed vs air speed concept. Ground speed is only relevant when there is zero wind, which at best is a rare condition when riding outdoors. Please include something on the lines of this in your upcoming video. Thanks!
Have the Zoot but ended up using the castelli ones in my last race because of the elastic at the top which I felt ‘tight’ vs the castelli ones being completely neutral compression wise, would be interesting to see them tested
Nopinz/aerocoach make a long overshoe (overshoe/calfguard all-in-one). When wearing a lace up empire all / s works type shoe, would one of these longer overshoes outperform a bare lace shoe plus calf guard. I’m probably splitting hairs here… but that’s what we all do 😅 Also noticed SwissSide’s new calf sleeves with horizontal (trips?). The speed at which aero matters depends on you! It has a non-zero affects as soon as your velocity is greater than 0! To that point, I’ve always wondered if calf sleeves are worth it for hill climbs at around 12 mph? It feels silly… but they weigh around 40-50g so unless there is muscle impediment… I don’t see any drawbacks.
Can't wait to learn more about the possible aero benefits of stubbles. Theoretically is makes a lot of sense: tiny hairs disrupt airflow at the surface. Another benefit of skin would be that the absence of socks or sleeves prevents any resistance caused by wrinkles in fabric around the joints. Also, even the finest fabrics increase the total frontal area of the rider. Especially at the hems this could be a marginal gain.
I was wondering how you control for differences in stubble density, length, size and shape? Think straight vs curly hair and hairs that lay flat on the skin vs ones that are more perpendicular.
I see one of the testers have a older shiv. How does it compare to newer frames? Is there much difference? I know it comes down to position and all other things, but I dont know if I should upgrade mine. I'm getting fast and I dont know how much a newer bike would help me. When I go to the US one of my things in my list is getting tested by you if possible :)
Depends on the relative wind speed. You can be traveling at 4 mph and aero will still matter into a headwind. Also depends on how someone defines "matters". Its proportional so a .99% savings is a .99% savings but at some point it will be a negligible term in navier stokes or other conditions with reynolds numbers etc
Looking forward to the next video on speed as I was wondering while watching how much of a difference in speed between riders there was, even at similar watts--faster should provide more benefit? One video I watched of Remco Evenepoel's testing mentioned they actually had different jersey's/materials optimized for different speeds.
@@kajet666 Same thing as what the Huub suit is. They have a under 22mph and over 22 mph suit and the custom lab they have also accounts for what your speed during the race will be in order to help choose their fabric.
Once you do the shaving tests, shaving paterns for tripping the air might be interesting, but maybe that is already what you are on: Alphamantis Technologies - intricate patterns in leg hair
Nice stuff as always! Curious about how the rankings change at different speeds, you might see a very different ranking for someone pushing out 300+ watts. Also - Please test different stubble heights this winter, e.g. 1mm vs 3mm :)
Do you think the bicep would be an area of improvement? Can you try cutting a sock or calf sleeve and wearing it over the bicep to see if there are watts to be saved? Thank you
Paula Findlay wore the Swiss Side calf sleeves in Lahti. On the TTL podcast she said she didn't test them, but that they had a very good reputation among athletes.
From personal experience as a runner anything under 6 min pace, 10 mph, a draft makes a difference. I think the difference will become measurable at 11.5 MPH
I would love to have seen a comparison image with stats overlayed depicting the shape of each test subject's calves. I wonder if that would help explain why some people had a more pronounced effect. I suspect some riders with thinner calves probably have different results than others with wider calves.
Do “regular” compression sleeves provide any aero benefit or do any aero sleeves provide any compression benefits in triathlon? I have venous insufficiency in one leg and compression socks are beneficial, but it seems that aero sleeves are pointless for compression. Are there any that do both?!
As someone who rides a TT bike and also rides XC MTB, do you think (or maybe try to test?) things like aero socks/sleeves and aero road helmets yield a similar benefit on an XC race bike and position?
1. Everyone is unique and what works for some might not work for others. 2. I think most should expect around 1.7% - 2.3% savings, which is pretty darn good. 3. I thought through this testing I would discover some tibial length vs calf diameter ratio that would predict potential savings, but nothing really came up. Perhaps it’s too small a sample size?
@@fastorfiction probably too small a sample, but my money's on calf diameter being the main driver. IIRC a wide cylinder is terrible for Cd. Great review and channel! These tests have had me pondering if there is a benefit to lowering saddle height a bit, and therefore reducing the blunt angle of the tibia and femur cylinders to the wind... your legs would average more of a chevron into the wind, and if your hip flexibility allowed, you'd also have a lower overall height. Is the power advantage of high saddle and extended knee angle worth the aero penalty?
You should include the swiss side calf sleeves. The same man behind them as the Rudy Project Wing. I suspect Surpas being more «fashion» than technology… Dont get me wrong, Surpas is great but I belive there are better testing behind other brands at the moment.. when will you test some suits ?
Being blessed with extremely skinny calves, I always wonder how calf shape impacts drag. 😂 But would sleeves work less well with skinny calves? Or the same as wide large calves.
Probably Zoot for wetsuit legal and Silca for non-wetsuit legal. Haven't used a calf sleeve before but love that the silca socks just feel like really nice socks.
I think you should consider doing a 'total aero package' test. Which combination of products provides the greatest net benefit...it may not just be the best in each individual category.
Incredibly valuable stuff- such an underrated channel!
I feel that many RUclips comments on aero videos forget the ground speed vs air speed concept. Ground speed is only relevant when there is zero wind, which at best is a rare condition when riding outdoors. Please include something on the lines of this in your upcoming video. Thanks!
Have the Zoot but ended up using the castelli ones in my last race because of the elastic at the top which I felt ‘tight’ vs the castelli ones being completely neutral compression wise, would be interesting to see them tested
Nopinz/aerocoach make a long overshoe (overshoe/calfguard all-in-one). When wearing a lace up empire all / s works type shoe, would one of these longer overshoes outperform a bare lace shoe plus calf guard. I’m probably splitting hairs here… but that’s what we all do 😅 Also noticed SwissSide’s new calf sleeves with horizontal (trips?). The speed at which aero matters depends on you! It has a non-zero affects as soon as your velocity is greater than 0! To that point, I’ve always wondered if calf sleeves are worth it for hill climbs at around 12 mph? It feels silly… but they weigh around 40-50g so unless there is muscle impediment… I don’t see any drawbacks.
Can't wait to learn more about the possible aero benefits of stubbles. Theoretically is makes a lot of sense: tiny hairs disrupt airflow at the surface. Another benefit of skin would be that the absence of socks or sleeves prevents any resistance caused by wrinkles in fabric around the joints. Also, even the finest fabrics increase the total frontal area of the rider. Especially at the hems this could be a marginal gain.
I was wondering how you control for differences in stubble density, length, size and shape? Think straight vs curly hair and hairs that lay flat on the skin vs ones that are more perpendicular.
I see one of the testers have a older shiv. How does it compare to newer frames? Is there much difference? I know it comes down to position and all other things, but I dont know if I should upgrade mine. I'm getting fast and I dont know how much a newer bike would help me. When I go to the US one of my things in my list is getting tested by you if possible :)
Depends on the relative wind speed. You can be traveling at 4 mph and aero will still matter into a headwind. Also depends on how someone defines "matters". Its proportional so a .99% savings is a .99% savings but at some point it will be a negligible term in navier stokes or other conditions with reynolds numbers etc
Yes, it seems as if this would be a simple, straightforward video, but there’s complexity many would not consider.
You are awesome thank you for information. Now I am debating between my Silca socks and Aero calf sleeves.
How fast do you need to be going for aero to matter?
As soon as I get out of bed it’s aero or bust.
Looking forward to the next video on speed as I was wondering while watching how much of a difference in speed between riders there was, even at similar watts--faster should provide more benefit? One video I watched of Remco Evenepoel's testing mentioned they actually had different jersey's/materials optimized for different speeds.
my thoughts exactly. Kudos for doing the test on normal people and not at 50 km/h, but the km/h would be interesting to know.
@@kajet666 Same thing as what the Huub suit is. They have a under 22mph and over 22 mph suit and the custom lab they have also accounts for what your speed during the race will be in order to help choose their fabric.
Once you do the shaving tests, shaving paterns for tripping the air might be interesting, but maybe that is already what you are on: Alphamantis Technologies - intricate patterns in leg hair
Nice stuff as always! Curious about how the rankings change at different speeds, you might see a very different ranking for someone pushing out 300+ watts. Also - Please test different stubble heights this winter, e.g. 1mm vs 3mm :)
Good work... love the channel. BTW, Zoot medium and large sizes are difficult to find in stock.
Love the channel, keep up the great work
Thanks! Very helpful and interesting! 👌🏼
Hey Jim, Runorama here. Stubble "might" not be more aero than shaved; it is more aero. I look forward to see you documenting it.
Do you think the bicep would be an area of improvement? Can you try cutting a sock or calf sleeve and wearing it over the bicep to see if there are watts to be saved? Thank you
Is it worth mentioning calf diameter to compare the different "cylinder" sizes?
As ever a well put together video 👍 Thanks.
Paula Findlay wore the Swiss Side calf sleeves in Lahti. On the TTL podcast she said she didn't test them, but that they had a very good reputation among athletes.
Curious how they test if the sleeves are wet (post swim)
GREAT video
Thank you
BAM ordered a pair of white
From personal experience as a runner anything under 6 min pace, 10 mph, a draft makes a difference. I think the difference will become measurable at 11.5 MPH
I would love to have seen a comparison image with stats overlayed depicting the shape of each test subject's calves. I wonder if that would help explain why some people had a more pronounced effect. I suspect some riders with thinner calves probably have different results than others with wider calves.
Have you tested DT SWISS aero socks?
I could be wrong, but perhaps Surpas is pronounced like the English word Surpass?
Interesting video, I always wondered about calf sleeves!
Great video! Perhaps the tested leg mass area of the women was less than the men tested which made the sleeves less of a benefit?
It's very possible, no doubt. I want to investigate further and this certainly won't be the last test we conduct on calf sleeves!
Do “regular” compression sleeves provide any aero benefit or do any aero sleeves provide any compression benefits in triathlon? I have venous insufficiency in one leg and compression socks are beneficial, but it seems that aero sleeves are pointless for compression. Are there any that do both?!
As someone who rides a TT bike and also rides XC MTB, do you think (or maybe try to test?) things like aero socks/sleeves and aero road helmets yield a similar benefit on an XC race bike and position?
Curious if cadence variations, lower leg length, and diameter of calf impacts results?
Surprised you didn't test Compressport, and Compressport Aero!!!
Aerodynamics matter at all speeds, but the impact goes way up as you go faster. My guess is the cut off would be something like 13 mph.
what happen to the video about velvet shoes? was looking for the brand of giro shoes you said test faster
Why did you drop Rule28? Maybe the two testers were outliers on this design and you’d see better results with others?
What's the reason some reductions are 3-4x the others? Much larger lower legs?
1. Everyone is unique and what works for some might not work for others. 2. I think most should expect around 1.7% - 2.3% savings, which is pretty darn good. 3. I thought through this testing I would discover some tibial length vs calf diameter ratio that would predict potential savings, but nothing really came up. Perhaps it’s too small a sample size?
@@fastorfiction probably too small a sample, but my money's on calf diameter being the main driver. IIRC a wide cylinder is terrible for Cd.
Great review and channel! These tests have had me pondering if there is a benefit to lowering saddle height a bit, and therefore reducing the blunt angle of the tibia and femur cylinders to the wind... your legs would average more of a chevron into the wind, and if your hip flexibility allowed, you'd also have a lower overall height. Is the power advantage of high saddle and extended knee angle worth the aero penalty?
You should include the swiss side calf sleeves. The same man behind them as the Rudy Project Wing. I suspect Surpas being more «fashion» than technology… Dont get me wrong, Surpas is great but I belive there are better testing behind other brands at the moment.. when will you test some suits ?
Zoot Elite Aero Calf Sleeves *Added to cart* Looks at shipping, shipping is more expensive than the calf sleeve *Closes window* 💀💀
What distance race should you consider using aero calf sleeves?
Zoot calf sleeves ordered!!
Unless your riding on a trainer, or the moon, aero always matters.
Being blessed with extremely skinny calves, I always wonder how calf shape impacts drag. 😂
But would sleeves work less well with skinny calves? Or the same as wide large calves.
You should check the new Mauna Apparel ones 💥💥💥
Down for a shootout anytime! 😆
I mean the wind could change a little bit while testong different persons, you have to test them indoor, otherwise i dont believe it
Please test HUUB,nopinz,ezagain too😊
how would wearing aero socks and aero calf sleeves do?
They made my calves tight and painful after use.
Of course I have rule 28…
Gotta see how they fit now
We’re all of the testers legs shaved when you tested without the calf sleeves?
Calf sleeves or Aero socks???
20mph +
Now the question is Zoot or SILCA ?
Probably Zoot for wetsuit legal and Silca for non-wetsuit legal. Haven't used a calf sleeve before but love that the silca socks just feel like really nice socks.
Since I need to wear socks during full Ironman ride, I will use SILCA then.
+1 for stubble
Most triathletes would wear these under their wetsuit. I wonder how well they test wet?
not really relevant, they'll dry almost immediately
Do you think you should only wear if you have a wetsuit on ?
In USA tri and world triathlon rules, you can’t wear calf sleeves in the swim if wetsuits are illegal, so time lot putting them on vs race distance.