Beautiful work, love the concept, design and engineering. Knowing CNC programing and having access to the machinery is a real plus. The weakness I see is handling powerful low midrange / mid bass notes (200hz - 400hz ). I totally understand keeping the size reasonable to keep it room friendly. As a fellow DIY horn guy and having a video by Steve Guttenberg posted, I commend your effort. IMHO you should try scaling up your speaker size so you can get some extra power handling. I am very impressed on many levels with your work. I wish you the best of luck with this and your future projects !!! Joseph Bulger
The horn takes a lot of machining time. If there’s interest I may redesign using straight walls like the summer rain horn which is a constant directivity type. This would bring the cost down and allow others to DIY using manual methods. Example would be here... instagram.com/p/B_K0Y-yJmCh/?igshid=1w2npjsqo549u
Great project! Thanks for sharing! Maybe you can try move the xo point to 2.5k. And a question: why the horn is not completely rectangular, meaning also the CD being in the same rectangular shape as the mids? Thanks!
2.5kHz results in an uneven polar response since the HF horn loses pattern control at 3.5kHz. This would effect the great timbrel balance I was getting. I tried numerous crossover points and slopes and 5kHz was a very balanced sound. The six midrange drives have massive dynamics much more than even the compression driver. This is something that's hard to show with measurement.
Looks absolutely amazing! Challenging response issues as you described. Have you considered building a synergy horn using your custom horn flare? That would check all the design criteria..Love the name nighthawk too. Awesome work and keep pushing the limits!
I've considered that although it's impossible to get wide coverage at 15kHz like what I'm getting with the smaller HF horn. 90 degrees at 15kHz is not something I've seen in a large horn regardless of the throat size or other flare geometry considerations. This is one of the main design rationale for the hourglass shape. I would love for somebody to prove me wrong by showing me a 200Hz horn with 90 degrees coverage at 15kHz.
You have some great designs on your page. And they look really wonderful and artfully pleasant. My only problem is your prices. I know you’ve put countless hours into each and everyone of them. But you have priced yourself out of reach for people like myself, so sadly I’ll never be able to hear and enjoy your wonderful products. Even with the ( for myself) high prices, they are great works of audio art
Joseph I appreciate your attention to detail and your thick skin when you ask for constructive criticism. It takes a special person to do that. I like to help engineers by purchasing their products. Things are a little tight right now, but I will in the future. I have 2 JBL 2446h drivers that I will get your custom horns. Do you build crossovers to ?
Hi, thank you. I do crossover design and construction. I do a good mix of design work for individuals and other speaker companies. You can contact me at Joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com for a quote or for guidance.
something doesn't seem right. The FaitalPRO 4FE32 should play to 5khz flat no problem. A 5k wavelength is 2.712 inches. 1/4 of that is .678 inches. My guess is that the distance of the midrange from the tweeter is too far and causing a suckout (specifically the top and bottom 4 inch mid). Try reversing the crossover on the tweeter. Switching the plus and minus. Does the suckout at 3-4k go away? If it does I would recommend a 2.5 way crossover. Let the mids around the tweeter play from the 200-5k range and let the outer mids pick up the 200-400 range. You may have to redesign your crossover but I believe you would get better results. Best of luck. I really enjoy your content even though I don't comment very much.
If you look at the raw frequency response for the midrange horn you'll see it starts to fall quickly past 1.6khz. Horns will only cover 2.5 octaves and so I've selected 350Hz-1.8kHz where it provides around 9dB boost in sensitivity. Attempting to extend the bandwidth of the horn past 1.6kHz requires that the natural frequency response of the driver is rising where the horn is falling, so that it sums flat. This is achievable with planar drivers such as the BG neo8 which has an aggressive rising response in the 2-4kHz region. I can't use any lower of a crossover point since the HF horn loses pattern control below this frequency and results in an uneven polar map where there is excess off-axis energy in the 2-4khz region. I can either make the HF horn bigger and cross it lower or I can attempt to find a mid driver that allows extension to 5kHz which would be my preference. The subjective sound quality of six midrange drivers is far more dynamic and enjoyable from my listening tests.
There is a patent on the synergy horn however I'll have to look into one-off builds where you've commissioned me to make something inspired by it. You can send me an email at joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com to discuss it further.
I generally select neo drivers if I have the choice since I always seem to prefer the sound. Beyond that I would want demodulation rings however they are not really an option on drivers in this price range ($40USD). The scanspeak 10F/8424 would be an example of the neo driver with copper pole piece for demodulation and subsequent lower intermodulation distortion. They are $103 USD however.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding I have the same issue, my last build was on a junk box with all the drivers blown some how, $120 total for parts for both speakers.
damn that looks like a nice wood project !! love the curves and such ! They look impressive ! to say the least ! May i asks what mic you use ? since 0.2% at 1 khz in third harmonic. looks a tad much if you ask me. for 4 midrange drivers. im sure they can do better then that. i know you already said it might be lower. but i think it should be much lower. if ur using a Umik... trow it in the bin :) please since you are making horns that should have low distortion a UMIk has rather much of its own. and you might not be able to see real results. - At what voltage is the distortion measured ? since i see it peaking at 90 dB , maybe crank that up a bit get rid of noise. and see how it does ? - i see you changed the waterfall settings we discussed few months back, by using 30 ms as time range, all details are lost. and looks flat , might be an Arta thing though. since we where discussing REW. you might have seen it already but when you show the scale change to dB instead of percentage for the midrange , you show the measurement of the tweeter :) or the combined measurement i think.
Thanks Joppe, I'm using the Dayton UMM6. I've looked at Earthworks but we will see how my year end is before investing in more test equipment. The burst decay is shown in 30 cycles not milliseconds. So at 10kHz 30 cycles is only 3 milliseconds.
Distortion may not be the lowest compared to my other tests since I was using the headphone jack on my laptop going through the MiniDSP as well. In other tests I’ve done was using my DAC connected directly to the amp.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding yeah im pretty sure it is mostly the rest of the gear trowing measurments off. i recommend Isemcon for mic. still affordable and muich better then the Umik/dayton variants. its the one i used on the last measurement.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding the basic measuring mic EMX-7150 the bulk version :) when i bought it they where 160 euro... now a little more expensive. but great service to. i demolished mine once :) and they do repair. (although my capsule and electronics where fried) it costed me 140 or something. thats cheap if you consider only the housing was used... i received a new calibration file for the repaired mic. love them !
Might be better if you round off the corners what was the reason you went for sharp angles generally is a no no because of edge boundary you might be getting some cancellation 3.5k
John sweda Thank you for the feedback. The performance could be improved with a fully rolled horn mouth on the HF horn which I can add. The reason for the lack of rolled mouth on the mid horn portion is in the way it’s machined on my CNC. The “petals” sit flat in the machine and the flare curvature is machined in one setup. instagram.com/p/B-qwV7UJBtK/?igshid=s5ikhrqhvf2m
John sweda I normally feature very smooth transitions off the horn mouth which does result in better performance so I’m not stranger to this attribute... ruclips.net/video/FMH94TS11AI/видео.html
Yes the latest development is System No.1349. It’s a variation of the original Nighthawk. The biggest difference is a larger high frequency horn, and radial curvature for improved vertical coverage. The drivers are meant for hifi this time around (Not pro sound). It will use a Viawave ribbon, and Scanspeak 10F midrange drivers. It will also use the full ES curvature with the wrap around geometry on the horn mouth. Details can be found here... josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/speaker-system-no-1349
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding wow..that off axis graph looks phenomenal even relatively compared to the original nighthawk. All this from merely increasing the size on the high frequency driver? I noticed you were able to cross over at 2.5 kHz. Have you scrapped the idea of using a wide bandwidth driver?..I'm always amazed that builders ask so much from one little driver. It seems the 4 way is the best alternative? Even though you consider this to be no longer a pro driver, 109 db is nothing to scoff at.
Maybe it's just where the speaker is standing, but the singer & band sounded like they were playing in an empty medium-sized hall with acoustically reflective internal walls &/or ceiling & floor ...i.e. quite reverberant in the vocal range & upwards, yet your voice in the same room had none of this quality & sounded 100% natural. Sorry, but it's what i heard.
Genius! So radical. Your not afraid to push the limits of horn design.
I whould make the edges that go from the tweeter also exponential/nonlinear.
This gets amazing sound for such small drivers
Beautiful work, love the concept, design and engineering. Knowing CNC programing and having access to the machinery is a real plus. The weakness I see is handling powerful low midrange / mid bass notes (200hz - 400hz ). I totally understand keeping the size reasonable to keep it room friendly. As a fellow DIY horn guy and having a video by Steve Guttenberg posted, I commend your effort. IMHO you should try scaling up your speaker size so you can get some extra power handling. I am very impressed on many levels with your work. I wish you the best of luck with this and your future projects !!!
Joseph Bulger
At first glance I thought of the Oswald’s audio mill speakers but yours actually make more sense.
Thank you!
Papillon, butterfly in French and a great movie
Can you do a video discussing the pros and cons of conical horns? OMA and their chef prizes them as the best type of horns.
Tysonic Technologies....thumbs up!
Cool horn design. What is the music track that was playing?
Beauty AND Brawn! Love it! I really appreciate your explanations
Very cool design
Thank you!
This design work is excellent
I'm liking this Joseph. Will watch for your further refinements. I hope the price of this kit will be affordable. All the best.
The horn takes a lot of machining time. If there’s interest I may redesign using straight walls like the summer rain horn which is a constant directivity type. This would bring the cost down and allow others to DIY using manual methods. Example would be here...
instagram.com/p/B_K0Y-yJmCh/?igshid=1w2npjsqo549u
Impressive Joseph.
I would look at Scanspeak Discovery 10F/8424G for a good mid with a nice rise.
I am missing the pulse-response of the complete system. What can be seen? Phase-shift, that can be heard! A flat response does not say enough.
could the 3K5Hz dip be a result of phase inversion of the hf to the mf drivers?
wow very cool design!
Thank you!
Great project! Thanks for sharing! Maybe you can try move the xo point to 2.5k. And a question: why the horn is not completely rectangular, meaning also the CD being in the same rectangular shape as the mids? Thanks!
2.5kHz results in an uneven polar response since the HF horn loses pattern control at 3.5kHz. This would effect the great timbrel balance I was getting. I tried numerous crossover points and slopes and 5kHz was a very balanced sound. The six midrange drives have massive dynamics much more than even the compression driver. This is something that's hard to show with measurement.
Looks absolutely amazing! Challenging response issues as you described. Have you considered building a synergy horn using your custom horn flare? That would check all the design criteria..Love the name nighthawk too. Awesome work and keep pushing the limits!
I've considered that although it's impossible to get wide coverage at 15kHz like what I'm getting with the smaller HF horn. 90 degrees at 15kHz is not something I've seen in a large horn regardless of the throat size or other flare geometry considerations. This is one of the main design rationale for the hourglass shape. I would love for somebody to prove me wrong by showing me a 200Hz horn with 90 degrees coverage at 15kHz.
I think you named it in the video: the Hourglass Window.
You have some great designs on your page. And they look really wonderful and artfully pleasant. My only problem is your prices. I know you’ve put countless hours into each and everyone of them. But you have priced yourself out of reach for people like myself, so sadly I’ll never be able to hear and enjoy your wonderful products. Even with the ( for myself) high prices, they are great works of audio art
Joseph I appreciate your attention to detail and your thick skin when you ask for constructive criticism. It takes a special person to do that. I like to help engineers by purchasing their products. Things are a little tight right now, but I will in the future. I have 2 JBL 2446h drivers that I will get your custom horns. Do you build crossovers to ?
Hi, thank you. I do crossover design and construction. I do a good mix of design work for individuals and other speaker companies.
You can contact me at Joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com for a quote or for guidance.
Why not crossing at 2000hz between mid and high?
something doesn't seem right. The FaitalPRO 4FE32 should play to 5khz flat no problem. A 5k wavelength is 2.712 inches. 1/4 of that is .678 inches. My guess is that the distance of the midrange from the tweeter is too far and causing a suckout (specifically the top and bottom 4 inch mid). Try reversing the crossover on the tweeter. Switching the plus and minus. Does the suckout at 3-4k go away? If it does I would recommend a 2.5 way crossover. Let the mids around the tweeter play from the 200-5k range and let the outer mids pick up the 200-400 range. You may have to redesign your crossover but I believe you would get better results. Best of luck. I really enjoy your content even though I don't comment very much.
If you look at the raw frequency response for the midrange horn you'll see it starts to fall quickly past 1.6khz. Horns will only cover 2.5 octaves and so I've selected 350Hz-1.8kHz where it provides around 9dB boost in sensitivity. Attempting to extend the bandwidth of the horn past 1.6kHz requires that the natural frequency response of the driver is rising where the horn is falling, so that it sums flat. This is achievable with planar drivers such as the BG neo8 which has an aggressive rising response in the 2-4kHz region. I can't use any lower of a crossover point since the HF horn loses pattern control below this frequency and results in an uneven polar map where there is excess off-axis energy in the 2-4khz region. I can either make the HF horn bigger and cross it lower or I can attempt to find a mid driver that allows extension to 5kHz which would be my preference. The subjective sound quality of six midrange drivers is far more dynamic and enjoyable from my listening tests.
That's soo pretty!
:-)
Speaker and graphs look great! Would you be able to do a synergy horn kit or is there patent issues?
There is a patent on the synergy horn however I'll have to look into one-off builds where you've commissioned me to make something inspired by it. You can send me an email at joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com to discuss it further.
I didn't get your idea... How -60-50dB can be 2% of THD?
Hourglass seems like an appropriate name
Thanks! Hourglass and time coherence....hmmm. There might be something there.
Is there anything wrong with the ceramic versions of these? Is it just the qts.
I generally select neo drivers if I have the choice since I always seem to prefer the sound. Beyond that I would want demodulation rings however they are not really an option on drivers in this price range ($40USD). The scanspeak 10F/8424 would be an example of the neo driver with copper pole piece for demodulation and subsequent lower intermodulation distortion. They are $103 USD however.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding I have the same issue, my last build was on a junk box with all the drivers blown some how, $120 total for parts for both speakers.
damn that looks like a nice wood project !! love the curves and such ! They look impressive ! to say the least !
May i asks what mic you use ? since 0.2% at 1 khz in third harmonic. looks a tad much if you ask me. for 4 midrange drivers. im sure they can do better then that. i know you already said it might be lower. but i think it should be much lower. if ur using a Umik... trow it in the bin :) please since you are making horns that should have low distortion a UMIk has rather much of its own. and you might not be able to see real results.
- At what voltage is the distortion measured ? since i see it peaking at 90 dB , maybe crank that up a bit get rid of noise. and see how it does ?
- i see you changed the waterfall settings we discussed few months back, by using 30 ms as time range, all details are lost. and looks flat , might be an Arta thing though. since we where discussing REW.
you might have seen it already but when you show the scale change to dB instead of percentage for the midrange , you show the measurement of the tweeter :) or the combined measurement i think.
Thanks Joppe, I'm using the Dayton UMM6. I've looked at Earthworks but we will see how my year end is before investing in more test equipment. The burst decay is shown in 30 cycles not milliseconds. So at 10kHz 30 cycles is only 3 milliseconds.
Distortion may not be the lowest compared to my other tests since I was using the headphone jack on my laptop going through the MiniDSP as well. In other tests I’ve done was using my DAC connected directly to the amp.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding yeah im pretty sure it is mostly the rest of the gear trowing measurments off. i recommend Isemcon for mic. still affordable and muich better then the Umik/dayton variants. its the one i used on the last measurement.
@@joppepeelen Thank you Joppe, what model of Isemcon are you using?
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding the basic measuring mic EMX-7150 the bulk version :) when i bought it they where 160 euro... now a little more expensive. but great service to. i demolished mine once :) and they do repair. (although my capsule and electronics where fried) it costed me 140 or something. thats cheap if you consider only the housing was used... i received a new calibration file for the repaired mic. love them !
Frequency range graph.
how much shipped to 78414? flat packed wood parts only (no drivers)
Hi, are you able to email me at joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com? I can send you a quote.
How much for a pair?
Might be better if you round off the corners what was the reason you went for sharp angles generally is a no no because of edge boundary you might be getting some cancellation 3.5k
John sweda Thank you for the feedback. The performance could be improved with a fully rolled horn mouth on the HF horn which I can add. The reason for the lack of rolled mouth on the mid horn portion is in the way it’s machined on my CNC. The “petals” sit flat in the machine and the flare curvature is machined in one setup. instagram.com/p/B-qwV7UJBtK/?igshid=s5ikhrqhvf2m
John sweda I normally feature very smooth transitions off the horn mouth which does result in better performance so I’m not stranger to this attribute... ruclips.net/video/FMH94TS11AI/видео.html
Have you any new developments with this design?
Yes the latest development is System No.1349. It’s a variation of the original Nighthawk. The biggest difference is a larger high frequency horn, and radial curvature for improved vertical coverage. The drivers are meant for hifi this time around (Not pro sound). It will use a Viawave ribbon, and Scanspeak 10F midrange drivers. It will also use the full ES curvature with the wrap around geometry on the horn mouth.
Details can be found here...
josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/speaker-system-no-1349
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding wow..that off axis graph looks phenomenal even relatively compared to the original nighthawk. All this from merely increasing the size on the high frequency driver? I noticed you were able to cross over at 2.5 kHz. Have you scrapped the idea of using a wide bandwidth driver?..I'm always amazed that builders ask so much from one little driver. It seems the 4 way is the best alternative? Even though you consider this to be no longer a pro driver, 109 db is nothing to scoff at.
Magnetic flux???
Just call it The Hourglass ;)
Thats one sexy speaker!
Thank you!
I see a tortie cat
Maybe it's just where the speaker is standing, but the singer & band sounded like they were playing in an empty medium-sized hall with acoustically reflective internal walls &/or ceiling & floor ...i.e. quite reverberant in the vocal range & upwards, yet your voice in the same room had none of this quality & sounded 100% natural. Sorry, but it's what i heard.
That was my thought as well. It sounded like she was singing at the bottom of a well.