What is GRRM Trying to Say With ASOIAF?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- In this video that definitely wasn't originally supposed to be another video that they had to cut around because it was too gosh darn long, Malcolm and Christian get into the weeds of literary analysis and try to figure out what it is that George R. R. Martin is trying to tell us within this epic series of epic proportions
#asoiaf #gameofthrones #grrm #nedstark
I think one of the reasons so many people in the fandom miss the thematic point of ASOIAF is that GOT (the show) occupies so much realestate in all our heads (even book readers). And GOT was adapted by a couple of guys who very obviously missed the thematic point of ASOIAF.
And if the differences between the show and books don't make this obvious enough, David Benioff of said duo sums it up perfectly.
"Themes are for 8th grade book reports."
@@thelateescapist8266 couldn't agree more
We couldn't agree more. We make fun of that quote all the time
Yep. I read and re-read the books often. I love them. I agree with this post that the story is deep and has many strong themes. One of them is anti-war, of course.
I suspect they know what the theme is and deliberately twisted it. The illiad seems to have a similar theme to ASOIAF and their Troy movie twisted the message of that on it's head too.
Tywin and Ned both viewed thier family as legacy. Anyone who thinks Tywin won and Ned lost needs their heads checked lmao.
Incredible stuff boys. Refreshing to hear something supportive about the thematic intent of GRRM rather than infantilising him as some sort of grandpa stumbling his way in the dark
@@jamesvlasveld5069 thanks! And yeah people take grrm's comments about being "a gardener" way too far and think he just has no idea what he's doing but there's so much depth that people are just totally missing which is infortunate
@@WizardKissingCo Hi guys. This was a great video. I agree wholeheartedly with what you’re saying. I subbed and hope to hear more from you guys. Thanks.
@@WizardKissingCo Truly. I plan to do a whole podcast on this myself at some point. The Gardner/Architect Spectrum and its Extraordinary Explanatory Power is a pet hate of mine and a really broad misunderstanding.
@@ThePatternmakersMaze Thank you so much! We have a couple videos on the way, and more we're planning to record very soon.
@@MoonManTheories Same for us. We toned it down for the video but this easily could've been 40 minutes of us complaining about how often people misuse and/or misunderstand what he even means when he says it.
Every time someone says “ned is stupid” it makes my blood boil.
Ned Stark is my favorite character not only cause he was great in AGoT, but cause his actions echo through out all of the story. All the Stark kids think of him, the North holds everlasting loyalty to him and he represents the idea of power not coming from a sword, but from relationships with other people.
@otttimon5654 really well put! Ned is so goated
Ned stark is a one dimensional characters
@@Brandonhayhewnot really lol
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 yes he has the cheap plot, fast warranting and a cheap character death it’s all uncle Ben
@@Brandonhayhew I don't know man. I really enjoyed seeing an honorable guy get his principles tested at Kings Landing, ultimately failing at all of his goals. The only uncle Ben thing I can think of is that his family loves him and they're traumatized by his death, which doesn't seem unique to uncle Ben.
I think the nature of fandom pollutes a lot of ASOIF discussion. Instead of viewing the novels as books they are conceived of as a nerd culture product. Every insignificant detail is analyzed in a matrix of understanding that prioritizes factoids, secret meanings, and a scientific approach. The story is viewed simultaneously as a consumer product and subject in a scientific study. Add in that people heavily invested into fantasy and broadly genre fiction are not well read from outside those spheres, and one arrives at so called literary analysis being superficial and missing the forest for the trees.
What the hell is a factoid.
The actual meaning is irrelevant fact used to confuse people. But generally people use it to mean facts that are false.
The guys who think that Ned lost because he died must've forgotten that "the north remembers" was about Ned's sacrifice, and the loyalty they hold for the Starks because of it.
Hounded pilled is something I will take with me.
You guys have this exactly right. So many asoiaf fans are completely missing the point.
Thanks! And yeah, we sadly agree. It's so easy to get lost in all the details and miss the bigger picture
It's less that they're missing the point and more they're chosing to take a different lesson of of the work.
Cool video, really insightful. You guys deserve a bigger following, hopefully that'll come soon!
1:11 That photo of GRRM from (I'm guessing) the '70s hit me like a bullet train. The cat really sets off his ensemble.
Thank you so much! And we hope so too hahaha. We've got some theory videos on the way that revolve around this central philosophy, so stay tuned for those!
And the photo is pretty great. The vest/ascot combo is just unbeatable
I think I'm exactly the type of reader you two talk about, who consumes these books without really getting the underlying themes. I'm not completely blind, I understand why most characters do what they do, but contextualizing the story as a whole from terms of overall themes to framing devices like story structure is a skill I just lack.
But I love this series, and I loved learning about a different take on it (even if I did feel called out). I'm not an avid reader by any stretch, so maybe the kind of perspective you two provide just comes with experience, I'm not sure.
At any rate, I think this is probably another testament to just how good a writer GRRM is that he can appeal to both the dullards like me and to the literary types like yourselves.
Thanks for the good watch, and take care!
Don't be so hard on yourself! You are no dullard. The "calling out" is more aimed at content creators who should know better, not everyday casual readers. We understand everyone reads things differently; our problem is with those who may or may not have popular youtube channels that misread the books and then make videos telling everyone GRRM doesn't know how to write.
And you're right, it takes time to learn and practice deeper reading. We're both pretty avid readers so we're in a more unique position that allows us to think about these things pretty much all the time. We know that isn't realistic for everyone.
We really appreciate you watching and leaving this comment. We act silly and frustrated in the video but at the end of the day we don't want to alienate you, or make you feel stupid. We hope you stick around for more! Take care!
That Davis chapter is easily one of the best in the book, that guy is not serious
As someone who loves literary fiction as much as fanatsy, and who gets frustrated with how some ASOIAF fans discuss Feast and Dance, (and the whole series, really), this video was very cathartic. I think due to the wait for Winds, and just different tastes and ways of engagement, a lot of people tend to start looking at the story in ways that are reductive and missing the point of what books and stories even are. I still remember when a particular youtuber once said on a stream something along the lines of Tyrion not being necessary for plot progression, and that he's just there because he's a fun character, and I can't imagine thinking about any kind of story that way. Stuff like that really makes me appreciate videos like this, that are actually engaging with the work on a literary level.
I mean if you’re talking about Preston (someone I could see making that quote about Tyrion) I think he does understand stories and recognize more than most what George is trying to do, but because he’s analyzed the shit out of these books can lose the forest for the trees for the sake of plot
@@Rievax17 Yeah it was Preston. Don't get me wrong, I think Preston does understand at least the big picture themes, and has done some great analysis of the story, but, in recent years, I think he's begun to look at the books in a reductive way. Maybe it is just due to going over the books so many times, but whatever the reason, I don't really feel as though he really engages with the story anymore, to the point where it, and a few other things, turned me off from his channel.
@@DweezyBreezey yeah fair enough. But I’d argue that Tyrion comment emphasizes the importance of character over plot, because since Tyrion becomes a “plot bystander” in Dance you would think he isn’t important anymore, however Preston loves those chapters for how dark and painful they are
I think a lot of frustration comes from how plot-forward books 1, 2, and largely 3 are. And how the series slowly moves away from a brisk pace to a more contemplative and meandering one
@@Rievax17I can see that being what he meant. In fact, it probably was. But my issue is that even framing it like that in the first place is missing the point. The point of Feast and Dance is to explore and re/define the characters and world in the wake of the recontextualization that was Storm. So to think about Tyrion being a plot bystander or not being important to the plot is to ignore the purpose of his chapters and the goal of the text. The framing shouldn't be "Tyrion's character and chapters are so great that he's relevant despite him being unnecessary for the plot," but that the characters are the story, and that taking the time to emphasize exploring them and delving into their development is as important as them participating in big, status quo changing events.
And sure, people read the books for different reasons, and they enjoy them in different ways, and they aren't wrong for focusing on plot advancement, but that focus will lead to a misunderstanding of the text because that's not what ASOIAF is truly about. It would be like watching a John Wick movie and going "The movie suffers because we don't really get enough scenes of the characters talking and discussing the world and themselves, but at least the action is cool." You're free to think that and prefer if it was the former, but you're also missing out on the goal of the work. I think Preston has fallen into that trap, I think a lot of ASOIAF fans fall into it as well, and I think a comment like his Tyrion one, or even comments he made about Tyrion, Jon, and Dany in his latest video on Winds, is emblematic of that.
I love this analysis and the banter between the guys here as well. Always good to hear about people who really want to think about what this story is actually trying to say.
Thank you! We try to do that in our upcoming videos as well, stick around for those!
@WizardKissingCo will do!
Such a refreshing video for the ASOIAF fandom lol the analysis is spot on... but I can't see how to reconcile the idea which I appreciate is coming from GRRM that genre details are only incidental furniture to timeless stories with how so much of ASOIAF is meta examination specifically of fantasy tropes and romantic medievalist tropes. like you could change all the setting to 1920s missisipi or whatever but the story would still be totally in dialogue with medieval romance and fantasy unless you changed like the actual central plot...
@@SharpGreen-u9w we deffo agree with what you're saying. In the vid i think what we're trying to emphasize is not so much that the fantasy and romantic aspects are totally irrelevant but rather that they are secondary to the characters and their stories. For example, grrm could've written an essay examining and criticizing and deconstructing these tropes and ideas (and it probably would have been a really good essay!) but what makes ASOIAF timeless and stick with us is the characters and how much we care for them. Another way to look at it is that the genre of it all is in service to the characters and the themes that grrm is wanting to write about. Like, even though asoiaf is an examination of classic fantasy and romantic tropes and ideas, grrm chose to set his story in such a setting as a way to emphasize and being attention to modern issues or issues that modern people can relate to. Like, young men today are pressured into fitting certain masculine molds and grrm could have written a story about that, but as a way to emphasize our current issues with that, he set the story in a world in which that masculine pressure is cranked up to 11 and a lot of young men die horribly in the attempt to fulfill the masculine archetypes they grow up with. It's the same with the dragons being grrm's way to write about world leaders and nukes. So, while ASOIAF is deffo in conversation with stuff like LOTR and old chivalric romances, grrm writing about those ideas and tropes is his way to write about current issues and the modern world and stuff he himself probably deals with in his own life. While the characters live in a fantasy land, they are characters modern readers can relate to and see themselves in. I dont know if i explained that super well lol but all in all we totes agree with you but think the genre works in service to the characters' stories and the meaning grrm is creating throughout the story. To grrm the characters come first
@@WizardKissingCo Yes I do see what you mean and I think it is evident actually in that I could have this point but still be nodding along to the rest of the video's points about what GRRM is doing with the characters
You get it
Fuck I love this, so refreshing.
I loved this analysis, it was really great to see and it reinforced some of my prior beliefs that asoiaf wasn’t a nihilistic story. Liked and subbed
Thank you for the support!
this channel might be a hidden gem will have to watch more videos
No need to say names, some asoiaf content creators think they're seers into the mind of Grrm and have atrocious takes. Very Melisandre coded of them.
Hey now, some of us actually have a mind portal.. and we spent a lot of time building it.. out of tinfoil...
@@7thmizukage Melisandre pilled
@@randominternetguyofficalWe would be lying if we claimed we ourselves are completely free of tinfoil....
There is a niche of creators that are either like Job or think they're somehow smarter than GRRM. It's crazy
@@WizardKissingCo
Hound pilled gag had me rolling, tbh.
Thanks for the great insights! Everyone who likes asoiaf should read As I Lay Dying. It’s an amazing book and really not even very long.
Thank you for watching! And we couldn't agree more, it would really open up the series to a lot of fans, new and old.
First video I've watched of yours, but it's brilliant. I'll be back for more. 🤩
I've spent a lot of time arguing these exact same points in the comments sections of ASOIAF videos, and forums over the last few years. It's pretty validating to see that there are other people who're actually picking up what GRRM's laying down.
Thanks for fighting the good fight 🫡
Just found yall - this video came up in my feed and I’m glad to find yall!
So glad to see more people voicing these thoughts!! Cause it’s so exhausting how many people seem to misunderstand what George is going for, deconstructing deconstructionists.
And I’m exhausted by people claiming we over think these books!
@@davidalbee5039 yeah so many people discount grrm as a writer or make him out to be some sex and violence obsessed nihilistic writer which is really disappointing
Great stuff guys! Very funny, subbed and hope to hear more
Thank you so much! We have some more videos coming soon, one of them being the start of a new series. We really appreciate the support!
The vast majority of theorists would di themselves a service watching this.
This inability of theorists to understand how GRRM's story writing works has made them blind and dismissive to half the books. The story is built and expands on a core structure.
Your Sansa/Astrid example is relevant. Read the dream sequence of the ToJ and then read Brienne's journey to the Whispers. Brienne is doing a different version of Ned's journey to the ToJ. The lead in the Whispers carries a Morningstar, the lead in ToJ holds Dawn. The three remaining Bloody Mummers list where 4 other ended up. At the ToJ they are questioned about why they weren't found with the other 4 KG. Brienne is looking for a Stark maid, so is Ned. Her entire arc in the last two books is giving us shades of Ned's story and that of Dunk and Egg. People think it's boring because they only see it as Brienne's story, when in fact it's giving us colored hints of two other tales.
GRRM's story is built on a very consistent structure. Different themes retell in a different ways, but they're written off because most readers only think a handful of people are important.
Look at Jon and Dany. Jon and Dany marry, Jon to NW and Dany to Drogo. Following this they go on a journey through a figurative sea (trees/grass) to a island in the sea (Fist/Vae Dothrak). Thier brothers are betrayed by allies at feasts. The leaders are killed by their own people and they replace them. They are forced to flee and end up in farther flung places. They end up ruling from the largest of three associated locations (CB/Meereen). Their people are thematic analogs, NW/Unsullied, Wildlings/Free Men, Stannis/Free Companies. Dany ultimately is confronted by a chaos of the Pits where she is forced to flee with Drogon, back into the sea, and perhaps back to the island. Jon's last scene is a Chaos similar to the Pits, so what should we expect? Jon should flee in some way with Ghost, back into the sea and his island.
That is not the only obvious parallel people miss. Theon and Jaime have this same shadowy parallel. In some way adopted as a hostage as boys. They leave that service to return to their father and fight for him. Ultimately are taken captive and held in the dark. Loose literal pieces of themselves. Are humbled and changed from their mocking the world personality.
Every potential AA character is paired with a red witch type character. Dany has Quaithe, Stannis has Mel. Catelyn has become a red witch character. Jon's story doesn't need these to double up, that would be pointless. Cat/LSH is there for someone else, she's there to make someone else a King/Queen.
GRRM reworks location themes. Castle Black has a Switchback stairs and an elevator. Curiously, in Sansa's story we have a white castle reached by a switchback trail and a basket elevator. Did GRRM write a thematic inverse of CB in Sansa's story for flavor and world building? Does Sansa get married/betrothed at the beginning of her arc? Is she mistreated by someone similar to how Thorne and Viserys do Jon/Dany? Does she embark on a journey after this betrothal? Does her brother die at a feast? Does her king/leader die? Following the leader's death does she flee? Sansa is at the point in Jon and Dany's story where they end up with Mance or Qarth. If she does follow this shadow of Jon and Dany's arc, where will she end up? Where will Bran's sweet sister go? Does she have a close Red Witch near her trying to make a King/Queen?
My point is that people tend to see half the books as pointless and boring because they've pick a favorite and their theory is limited to how their champion will win. They've decided who the main character is and they can't see anything else. It's when the story doesn't feature their champion that they see it as dull world building. They can't pick up on what GRRM is even telling them about their champion and it's story because they can't imagine anyone else being important. They see only a hero's journey through the world. The actions of the hero. They miss the internal journey that will make them worth being a hero. They think slaying the dragon makes a character a hero rather than the journey to becoming who they are when they slay the dragon. They think GRRM sees a Hero as someone that slays a dragon rather than someone who is brave when they are afraid.
Great video, I was really impressed by your analysis
@@ytrg1 thank you! We're hoping to do more of this kind of analysis in the future and hope to see others do it more as well
@@WizardKissingCo looking forward to your future vids!
Bad ASOIAF takes are the only good content ASOIAF has produced since ADWD
you obviously haven't seen my videos
@ your videos are the kind of good content I am talking about lol
Sure, stannis is a targaryan restorationist, why not.
And the peach is definitely morse code
@@jamesoncatlett6784 A) mostly out of desperation B) not literally meant as a message, per say. But thank you!
Th guy who emulated a southern knight sounded very Monty Python lol I was immediately transported back to The Holy Grail
Hell yeah
Going with the Jon x Sansa theme, GRRM gas has been laying the groundwork the whole time.
Distant relationship (and an evidently affectionate relationship with someone of the same relation that is the exact opposite and leaves room for growth)? Check.
Literally placing characters throughtout the history of the story who are star-crossed lovers, with an emphasis on duty ("AEGON" THE FIRST marrying for both love and duty; Jon might have to make a choice between the two that decides the story), with the central them of conceding something to be with a loved one (Prince Duncan and Jenny, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jon and Ygritte, Robb and Jeyne, Rhaenyra and Daemon, Dany and Drogo). Check.
It's a love story. We were just now getting to a point where the romance can actually bloom.
Ned Stark himself literally represents the Stark and Targ combo (holds the sword, carries the burden, directly connected to Lyanna and Rhaegar), comings the together for good in the modern story.
And what is born of it? An honorable, decent, strong and honestly, a perfect fit to be a great king (mirroring struggles PRINCE "EGG" AEGON went through, leaving luxury in youth to struggle and become a real man, unlike all of the spoiled brats who actually sit the throne). He was also raised by a brown haired surrogate who taught him things about life, the world, and being a man that he would have never even sniffed without him. DING DING DING
Like, our literal first 2 kings we see, one was a rich kid who got to party and bang whores (happened to be good at caving breastplates, representing a literal giant warhammer smashing into their dynasty, scattering them and mangling the idea of a "perfect prince") his whole life and the other was a spoiled brat with no spine. Third was a sweetheart, but a weakling. All three failed to be effective leaders.
Westeros has a very broken system that creates "false" kings who don't have the faintest idea what they're actually doing to everyone else's detriment.
Robert also ends up deeply depressed after killing Rhaegar. Truthfully, he loved him more than Lyanna. He gave him a reason.
He kills Rhaegar every night. He can't even remember her face.
IT'S ALL PRETTY ON THE NOSE 😅.
The song of "Ice" (Ned's Greatsword [made of VALYRIAN STEEL], Sansa's demanor after years of tutillage from Littlefinger in politics. And all the obvious red herrings with Jon like the wall and his mom being a stark).
And Fire (Jon's Targaryen blood, Passion, perhaps a tie to him being brought back by the lord of light? Also, it could be applied to Sansa and her hair since gingers are "kissed by fired," as Tormund states)
Feels like the central point is that while yes, duty is important, the other side is equally, if not more. All those relationships caused massive fallout, but only because they lived in a place where following their heart was viewed as a problem.
If you think about it, the rest of the world is always shown to be spitting at and looking down on westeros and their customs in the writing.
At that point, they are no longer people. Just meat suits falling in line and fulfilling their "purpose" that is imposed onto them by the world; meaning the king.
Who none of that applies to. He simply had to be born 99/100 times and has no valid life experience to anyone jackshit. That's why Westeros is always knee-deep in shit.
Almost like George is saying absolute power isn't really a good thing. Well, that and giant firebreathing lizards only the "Super-Aryans" can control.
Westeros has been a terrible country run by incestuous dictatorship hundreds of years and new a Targ, decent, open-minded and strong, actually chosen by the people, taking up office after Bloodraven's "factory reset" on everything, might be exactly what it needs. We've had Aegon the "Conqueror." Maybe it's time for "Aegon the Liberator."
Thanks for coming to my TEDTalk
This is great! Especially the part about absolute power/dragons being a bad thing. We didn't bring it up in the video, but we have always wondered why people think Dany going full Targyrean at the end of Dance is a good thing. Like, you think GRRM is advocating for this descendent of "royal blood" to lean into her "birthright" and use her nukes to conquer the world? It's clearly a bad thing! The absolute power point is interesting too. The show's central conflict being "who gets the throne?" probably didn't help that point come across unfortunately. It's like people forget that monarchies and war are a bad. And then people are confused why so much of Feast is just the horrible aftermath of the war.
@@WizardKissingCo thanks for bringing up the tourney at ashford, when you named off the houses, it connected so many dots for me!
Jon and Sansa's arcs are polar opposites (always have been really). Only makes sense to bring them together to balance eachother in the end.
Just like Ice and Fire do
My favorite aspect of George’s writing is his ability to convey theme through his puzzles. He keeps me asking at all times “how does this piece fit into the whole.” The whole story, the whole mystery, the whole message, everything.
Same thing Robert Caro was saying in his multi-volume biography of Lyndon Johnson. "Power reveals." All these characters get some kind of power, either through actively seeking it, or it is simply thrust upon them, whether they want it or not. And in each case, that reveals aspects of their character, positive and/or negative. Many who most crave power are least worthy of it. But whether you want it or not, somebody is going to have it, and you won't be able to impact the world around you without it. The Iron Throne symbolizes that power in Westeros, and it's depicted as an ugly dangerous thing, that corrupts all around it, and even sometimes literally injures and infects those who sit on it.
That's how I know the scene in the show, where it is destroyed by Drogon was in GRRM's outline. And that yes, Dany, who wanted that throne more than anything, even love, goes mad like her once-virtuous father, and dies. And Bran, who has seen every possible use and abuse of power in history as The Three-Eyed Raven, and would much rather not have to wield it himself, became King.
People thought it was about how the best and coolest person--whoever they thought that was--would get the throne, and everything would be great. There are zero instances in history of anyone becoming ruler and everything was peachy keen after that. Zero. But there are instances of a system of government changing, to become a bit more inclusive, a bit less arbitary, and that's how I know that yes, it would have been decided at the end of the last book that kings would no longer inherit the crown, but be chosen by other lords. Hardly a perfect system. But yes, that was as close as they could come to breaking the wheel of dynastic warfare.
Just discovered you guys, subscribed. Thank you for making this gents. It’s not a nihilistic story!
It’s 5AM and I’ve been for over 30 hours. Hopefully I’ll remember this in my watch later when I get up.
Did you remember?
👀 Im in the star wars oniwan example rn boss
@@WizardKissingCowas a really good look at game of thrones. Most creators are too busy self fellating about their theories instead of looking at what’s in front of us. There’s a ton of references people pick at but like it’s just a reference 99% of the time. Who the hell cares about Sothorios or Yi Ti when the story is in primarily Westeros
Michael talks about stuff referred me here. Great video, subbed!
Edit : it was Random Internet Guy not Michael!
No way! That's insane. Did he mention us in a post or something? Thank you for the support!
@@WizardKissingCo my bad I got the creators jumbled up, it was Random Internet guy who referred me! I saw a post from Moon men too. Both posts on the community section on their youtube profile.
Great video 👏
Please keep making this content!
Your wish is our command, MrLadish!
this had no business being this fucking funny
God this video is so fucking good dude
I asked myself, "what ignorant, illiterate drivel will I be treated to here?" And I clicked. You obviously know the feeling. I am supposed to be here. You guys have other work somewhere? Even after hearing you dispel the confusion around the Faulkner reference, I'm still eyeing these Elbon Ring videos with significant suspicion.
We're honored you feel that way! We found your channel like a week or two after you uploaded the peach theory and have been fans of yours since. This is the first true ASOIAF theory/analysis video we've made, but we have a lot more on the way (especially after the support this has received).
And on the Elden Ring videos.... Those are definitely more conspiracy-coded, but it is almost alarming how similar GRRM's work on that video game is to ASOIAF; thematically and in the details. For example, one of the game's central figures is a frail child of royal lineage who, capable of mind control, absconds to the deep north and cocoons himself there in a white barked, red leafed tree that is watered by blood(!). Also, that child's older step brother brokered peace between an ancient, segregated faction to the north, and integrated them into the rest of the country. This guy then got stabbed to death, and his body (his soul split from his body when killed) got resurrected (by a woman who admits to laying with kings to give them "power") to become the "prince of night". Kinda crazy.
We know they're a far cry from the likes of this video, and we don't think they should replace the literary analysis we argue for here, but the connections between the work, we think, are too great to totally ignore. It's at least fun to point out.
Thank you for watching this and commenting though, we're both a little shocked you found this video, let alone agree with us.
@ I'm glad to hear it! See! I knew my videos give off a different impression. I'm doing a podcast on a second channel and on patreon and in one of those places I'm begun to at least threaten to talk "gardener/architect" (I will always pedantically include the other half of the spectrum).
On Elgun Rim, I have no doubt what so ever that all the similarities I've heard about are there on the screen. However, while yes, he wrote a bunch of stuff for them, and yes, I'm sure they had some great convos, it bears keeping one big thing in mind when trying to extract any, like, clues or confirmations from the text of the game. They brought him in because they are massive fans. The concept of the game, from the ground up, was likely "homage to GRRM." He happens to have been vital and willing, a great appreciator of flattery and money. So they brought him in. They got it from the horses mouth.
But they also had access to all the same writing Martin's other fans have had for decades. Even to the RUclips theory videos. So when we observe a scene which resonates with ideas we've mined out of minutia in the Song, there is really no way to understand its provenance. Who knows how much *they* pitched *him* on when he first sat down for sushi.
Beyond that, once you take any of these ideas out of the actual story, they are free to morph into anything. No doubt there will be strong resonances between the remaining book and the final seasons of the HBO program. No doubt many things "came from George," as the producers liked to say. Well, he was also a producer and writer of that show. So "came from George" is likely as often as not a slight of hand referring to his ideas for how to improve or salvage an already divergent story. Novel ideas. Old ideas long discarded. Who knows.
So yes, there will be connections, but at best they are fodder for ideas (if divining the secret intentions of the author is your goal, as it is mine).
Great video lads, hope you don't mind if I share.
I just found this too. I thought it was gonna suck lol
Of course not!!! We sincerely appreciate the support!
“Mmmmhmmmh, food”
Thank you, finally some people who know how to freaking read.
I’ve had the most frustrating conversations with people who think that just pulling whatever out your ass is an analysis or a ”fan theory”, and it can be about something as obvious as Harry Potter.
”I think Lily Potter prepared for Voldemort’s attack via ritual to give Harry his protection, she was a very clever witch!”
”Er, no. It’s just a literary Jesus-thingy about sacrificing yourself for others combined with the figure of the loving mother.”
”I think ur wrong!”
Liked and subscribed. Keep it up. You’re my only hope.
Terrific to hear people who are actually well-read discuss this shit lol. It’s so infuriating to listen to…the other guys presupposing they are inside the head of Martin
he is saying that feudalism is bad, wich is a very hot take in my opinion
Truly
Ackshully he's saying feudalism good. Have you considered that?
Some people really think that if others are bad around you, then you gotta be worse.
wanted to say hey, it seems algorythm have taken notice of you. And so have i... Nice video. I liked it and even laughed couple times. Awesome energy, subbed
Great take guys. We are of the same mind.
Thanks!
My favorite author is Kurt Vonnegut- another writer who uses/used “genre fiction” (in his case, sci-fi) as an outline to tell very human stories
Love to hear perspectives like y’all’s, keep it up!
I agree the pathetic demise of Littlefinger is what he deserves, but the way it was portrayed in GOT was dumb. He was acting like an idiot.
We would agree with that as well. It felt so forced. If it's going to happen in the books (which we think is likely), it'll at least be in a much more believable way.
@WizardKissingCo Sure, I guess most of what happened in the series will happen in the books as well. But, well, GOT s7-8 was hugely dumb.
Anyway, nice vision. I hope you release more stuff about ASOIAF. I like your thematichal analysis
Awesome video. Not sure if yall are familiar with elden ring but the similarities are undeniable, many people try to describe the story with specific events when it's really about the characters and uncovering history. A good story can use any genre to get its point across, the value is not in a bunch of complicated world building. Subbed
Thanks for the support! And familiar we are. Our first few videos are actually about the connections between Elden Ring and ASOIAF, check them out if you're interested!
@@WizardKissingCo oh awesome, I should've looked lol. This will be great for the work week
Finally got some time to watch this through and 13 minutes in:
*Firstly, my perspective is of a recurring show watcher (and I still love the show despite how it ended) who read the books years after the show ended. While terribly disappointed with the latter seasons, especially season 8, after reading the books I actually disliked the show more (and with more thoroughness than before). Because of the quality of GRRM's writing and storytelling.
Now to the video.
Such a great point about the takeaways from the legacies of both Ned and Tywin. The audience/reader takeaway from this is a great study in the values of each of us as humans. I watch a lot of youtube reaction videos to the tv series and it's amazing that what the showrunners chose to emphasize regarding those two characters, can be reflected in the reactors and commenters, who ALMOST ALWAYS love Ned more yet have more respect for Tywin, and that has always confused me.
Part of the reason for this in the show is the fact that they chose not to adapt AFFC and ADWD. Those last two books bring Ned and Tywin's legacies to the forefront and make it clear who has the better one, yet none of that is apparent in the show. In fact they double down on Tywin through Cersei.
I always thought a great moment for her would be starting to go down the scheming path change course but then later she can use what she has learned for good or non selfish reasons at least. It could be a great scene she's confronting someone who was scheming against her and says something like I believe you may have forgotten I am known for being straightforward and honest but I learned the game of thrones first hand from Cerci, Tyrion, and Petyr.
To be fair, I don’t think it would even take too much scheming to convince Aegon to marry Sansa. Let’s say she tries to manipulate him. She looks at him coyly over her shoulder once and he’s already on his knees begging for her hand.
Good video. You’re so right.
I only watch theorists like David Lightbringer and Michael Talks about Stuff who get what George is doing thematically and morally. It’s not about the plot minutia - it’s the character arcs and internal conflicts that are constantly reinforced by symbolism and paralleled again and again throughout history, supernatural events, and in-world folklore.
The common perception of George’s world as inherently nihilistic and cynical is dead wrong. And while I agree we shouldn’t miss the forest for the trees in getting too obsessed with the weirwoods, for example, I think that they’re a foundational part of George’s world building because they dovetail with the points you’re making about Ned’s legacy vs Tywin’s.
We’re likely going to see the abominable Wall, the poisoned Wierwood system, even the position of the Starks themselves all questioned and ultimately overthrown by the Stark children who will be guided by the morality of Ned and reject the sins of their forefathers to recreate a new world system and world-tree.
They will be aided by Dany who will grapple with her Valyrian heritage and sacrifice herself for the benefit of others. The olive trees are foreshadowing for the new trees she’s going to help Bran and the other Starks plant. As Michael Talks about Stuff has theorized, the importance of “dragon glass” could actually be use of dragons in making new glass for greenhouses to survive winter.
Bran, Arya, Jon (even if it’s Night King Jon) will restore green magic / the natural order and terminate the current supernatural system that is based on some ancient figure’s attempt to live forever
(bran the builder, azor ahai, whoever committed the original sin - it doesn’t matter). There will be a great act of reconciliation and/or self sacrifice.
All men must die. Any scheming to live forever, or even to have one’s legacy last forever, is immoral if it requires the sacrifice of even one innocent child. So I think that Ned’s moral character will live on in the coming Spring even at the cost of his own family’s uncannily privileged position which was won and maintained with blood magic. His family’s preeminence might end but all that matters is that his ethics resonate through history - something Tywin never understood.
New sub very well earned.
This is absolutely amazing. Cum Town mixed with literary analysis
what did i just watch (great vid)
Which RUclipsr/video are they discussing at 8:42
At around 18 minute mark, I believe the quote from the Northern lord is from a Yara Greyjoy chapter. But I forget his name, too. Does anyone know>???
The chief of Wull clan, Hugo Wull also known as Big Bucket Wull.
Saying George doesn’t really care that much about world building is WILD to anyone who’s read Feast/Dance. I do agree about the conflict within the heart of men being the primary focus, but good god does GRRM opine about random anecdotes, houses, nicknames, and obscure histories that largely do very little to advance the plot or any powerful themes.
You are speaking my mind bros
You guys give me a shane gillis and matt mccusker vibes
Which one's which
@ hard to say, it’s just the way you make comical impressions and voices that reminds me of these guys, they kinda do it the same way
Idk maybe I’m insane 😂
Everytime Jon is about to make a stupid decision something supernatural (ghost) happens and saves him from dying, could be plot armor or maybe someone is manipulating ghost?
Insightful video, much needed for the community.
Please tone down the funny voices xD shit by like 35% so I can actually recommend this video to people
Are you scared we'll make them laugh too hard
🤣 love you guys ❤️😎
I have a purely utilitarian view of his stuff: they're all thought exercises/criticisms of ideologies or governments personified by characters. He was originally a science fiction writer, a genre infamous for disguising modern policy criticisms via imaginary future societies.
People think he's just being subversive and edgy by slaughtering all these characters, when their deaths are really more symbolic of "how might X fail?" in a strategic and ideological way. But really he started GoT over a deep and literal questioning of what Aragorn's kingdom looked like and the genre as a whole. The conclusion being "stop romanticizing medieval society, it sucked" and "being 'good' is hard to do and to define" or something idk.
Sigh, guess I need to go read the rest of Faulkner's books I've neglected since college now
Great video! It'll be interesting to see who's closest to what Winds will actually be between you guys and the "other channels." I admit I have fallen into the George more wants to build out the world than actually finish the plots of the original cast of characters way of thinking in recent years, especially with Blood and Fire releasing
Love the art
THANK YOU SO MUCH! The next video will have even more
Faulkner.
End of.
Couldn't have said it better ourselves
Funny you use the *subtly redacted* creators to illustrate this. I think some of their videos on Feast completely agree with you guys, but you're right in that they don't extend the same analysis to Dance.
Great video
@@dominicellis6185 hahah damn is it obvious? Well to your point we actually shout out and reference a certain someone on their Feast ananlysis in the vid i'm working on rn (which was actually recorded as part of this vid) ao if we're all thinking of the same creators then i would agree with you lol also thanks for watching!
who was the creator that they are referring to btw? The one who thought GRRM was too focused on worldbuilding because wow that's a bad take.
@@SiddarthaTB 🫢🫢🫢🫢🤫🤫🤫 I couldn't possibly say...
Maybe i got this wrong but did one of the people speaking say they don't read genre fiction (neither fantasy nor sci fi), say they haven't read GRRM's books BUT have watched the show and proceeded to equate him to "real" literature as oppposed to the "fake" literature that apparently is fantasy and sci fi, because it has... Depth (unlike apparently all of genre fiction because LOTR is the only other fantasy series that ever even dared to do anything worthy of literary analysis)
Sounds pretty ignorant and pedantic for no reason unsless it's a joke and it just flew over my head
Of course its a joke! Why would someone talk about a book they havent read. Also, genre fiction isn't fake, that wasn't the point.
But themes are for eighth grade book reports. /s Great commentary on the story and the state of the asoiaf fandom. It's true that classic styles of analysis like theme and character are fundamental for understanding what GRRM is saying with asoiaf. And that's the kind of analysis the fandom has been sorely lacking. There's a lot of theorycrafting based on speculation or esoteric puzzle games that only the theorist seems to understand.
That said, GRRM is indeed weaving an incredibly esoteric puzzle game into the story. The mechanics of the game all originate from one or perhaps the most fundamental insight about story as such. It's that the story defines the story, also known as context clues. Or as CS Lewis put it, every text is a sacred text. What he meant by that is that wherever the meaning of something in a text is uncertain, it's more appropriate to assume the story is internally consistent with itself and derive a meaning from an analysis of _other_ uses of the same word / situation / phrase in the story, than it is to phone a friend, reference a dictionary or history book or anything else. Our generations mostly don't know that about stories, I think because the schools failed us. And GRRM is capitalizing on that in this series. For instance, when Dany in AGOT refers to the sticks in Drogo's funeral pyre that are laying north to south as laying from ice to fire, that licenses both an association between north and ice and an association between south and fire. It's hugely consequential to the story in symbolic analysis, but almost nobody notices and fewer care.
Great video 👍🔥 we need more and good to see you making videos again
Thank you so much for being with us since the beginning! We have more on the way that should be coming out very soon!
Why am I getting a take on books from someone who hasn't read them?
Cus I do funny voices and have big, beautiful eyes that flutter like butterfly wings when I smile
@ Im sold
Thank you! Wop wop wop wop wop
thank you for reminding us why fantasy nerd bros are the absolute worst❣️
"I like these books, even though I haven't really read them"
Perhaps, if you are to make a public video claiming that a work is widely misunderstood by its audience, it behooves you to first actually read the work.
Like, I see ASOIAF interpreted in very different ways all the time, often in ways that are pretty bad interpretations, but there's no point listening to a supposed textual critique by someone who's never even read it.
Just tune me out and listen to the other guy
First point: Jon didn't die because he was going to abandon the nightswatch. And it was going to be the third time he did that anyway, after which he didn't really get brought low, not directly by other characters, and not in some poetic sense either. He abandons the wildlings and suffers tho, losing Ygritte. He chooses duty and suffers, because the wildlings weren't the enemy. In adwd he chooses to help the wildlings, and gets killed for that, because the point of that story is not that good deeds will lead to good, but that actions have consequences.
Second point: the concept of the lowest point of any character being 2/3rds or 5/7 through the story, doesn't work in this series. Why apply it to Jon but not the others? Why fall back on the heroes journey, when it clearly doesn't work for this story of multiple main characters? Have you read any other grrm story? They don't follow the heroes journey in the slightest sense. I agree the shallow interpretations like "this is a world where good loses and evil wins" are terrible, but you make a worde mistake by bringing up lotr, the heroes journey, and Jung.
Third point: the length of the book series wasn't know in advance, and still isn't set in stone now, so the 2/3 or 5/7 point wasn't planned as such.
About tywins and Ned's legacies: Ned is remembered by that sisterton lord, but it leads to him helping davos while keeping up appearances to the outside world. He's playing both sides. Is that neds legacy of honor and duty (to stannis)?
And tywins legacy does live on, most notably in Jon connington, who is trying to embody his cruelty and mercilessness.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but it's not THE point of the story.
I really hate that you think the story will end happily ever after, with the starks being good people getting the good ending, and the villains all getting their deserved downfall. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is really how it sounds, and then you say "don't believe what you've read so far, it'll all turn around in the last two books!" Like you see the finger pointing, but not at the moon you're envisioning because you're convinced this is lord of the rings or star wars or finding Nemo, because you are Campbell pilled, and so you conclude the finger will point somewhere else after two more books, despite everything.
The main moon grrm is pointing at is "war is bad", but you think war is good when it's in the name of ned stark ffs
@@tychoclavius4818 to your first point: the brothers arent just mad at him for helping the wildlings but instead for teetering on the line of breakkng his oaths. They see helping the wildlings as such a thing, but they also dont like how he's helping stannis when the brothers are supposed to take part in no wars or politics. Jon's whole arc in that book is him caught in the middle of what he thinks he should do and what he wants to do. He wants to march south with Stannis and be lord of winterfell, but he thinks he should stay out of it, so what does he do? He doesnt march south but he gives stannis the info and strategy he needs to retake the north. He thinks as lord commander he shouldn't interfere with ramsay and arya's wedding, but he ends up sending stannis to do it instead. The whole time he is barely holding himself back, and the brothers dont actually do anything to stop him until he has had enough and finally announces he is actually going to march south with the wildlings, something everyone from the wall to king's landing was afraid he was going to do. He finally stops with the halfmeasures and decides he's gonna do it himself (even under the guise of fulfilling the law) and that's when he actually gets punished for it.
Second point: it's not just a hero's journey thing, almost every book, movie, tv series, i can think of has this structure. And you can apply it to every character, not just jon. We talk about sansa's low moment in the video. Tyrion is at his lowest point in essos in which he is giving in to all of his worst, most violent impulses, arya is in the process of forsaking her own identity and giving her life to a death cult because she thinks she has nothing left, cersei finally gets the power she has wanted the whole series and she gets herself imprisoned and has to do the walk of shame, etc. etc. Daenarys has a similar arc to jon in the fifth book in which she is also caught in the middle of two paths: the path of diplomacy and compromise vs the path of the dragon, justice by fire. And her low point is that her diplomacy failed, she is stuck in the grass sea where she is found by dothraki, and she is deciding to give into her dragon nature, and her dragon nature is not something i perceive as being a good thing.
Final points: no where do we say war is a good thing or that the story will have a purely happy ending. Grrm himself has said the ending will be bittersweet (which is how he describes LOTR's ending), and we believe the series will end with reconciliation, not with war. All we're saying the video is that Ned's legacy has a stronger and longer lasting impact on the people in the story. It's not that it's a good thing that people are going to war in his name, we're pointing out how people still respect Ned and are still loyal to Ned and his ideals long after his death.
@@WizardKissingCo
Thanks for responding!
Yes I agree, Jon was killed because he pissed off the nights watch. But is that Jon being punished by the narrative for his bad actions? That it's grrm bringing him low, and he needs to be a better lord commander to overcome this in the last 1/3 of his story?
You quickly mentioned in the video that the story is critical of vows and oaths as a moral system, so you can't really believe that Jon's story comes down to that, right? That his empathy for the wildlings was a hurdle he failed to overcome?
I wrote responses to the other points too but that stuff feels like it gets away from the point so I'm keeping it short.
@ no problem, thanks for commenting! As for Jon, he is continuously caught between antagonistic forces such as his desires and his duty, as well as more literal antagonistic forces such as the watch and the free folk. His whole arc revolves around trying to sort out these antagonistic forces. Here's where i could write out a big long paragraph about Hegelian dialectics but that would take up so much space so to keep it simple, when it comes to Jon's story, the idea is not that any single one of these forces wins out in the end but rather that the conflict between these forces creates a new synthesis between them, a new situation. In most stories, even if a hero wins in the context of their story, they are often not the same hero they were at the start of the story. The conflict of the story forced them to change and find a new synthesis. So Jon's whole arc is him moving towards this new synthesis. In AGOT, the emphasis is on the warring forces of his desire and his duty and he chooses his duty over his love for his family, ie what he wants to do. His duty wins out. However, again it's not about one force winning, it's about a synthesis. Fast forward to ADWD, these forces have become larger and more complicated. The conflict escalates, and the low point within stories is often times when the conflict escalates to a degree that protagonist regresses or gives up. Jon has grown to a point where he has realized that a synthesis is possible between all of these warring forces and is actively trying to both stick to what he believes his duty is while also doing fulfilling his own desires (helping stannis, sending mance to save his sister). Not only that but he is trying to bring the watch and the wildlings together. So, when we get to the end of Dance, the conflict has escalated to a point where he is regressing to his book-one-self, in which he believes that there is no synthesis, only one or the other. But now instead of his duty, he chooses his own personal desires. When he gets the pink letter, he thinks of his family, the family he chose the watch over in book one and ever since. This also comes after a conversation where he becomes totally fed up with bowen and othyll, as well as melisandre. Now that the pink letter has detailed how his plans have failed and nothing is going his way at all, he says "fuck it" i'm done trying. He decides he's just gonna do what he wants to do and march south with the wildlings. He knows that this is basically breaking his oath, and when he sees bowen and othyll storm out of the room, he thinks "good i dont even need them any more". He feigns doing this as part of his duty to the watch or the law and claims he is going to go alone, but he says he won't ask his fellow brothers to break their oaths (admitting he is breaking his own oath) and when the free folk want to go with him, he thinks "now i have my swords..." and whatnot, revealing that this is what he planned and wanted to happen. All this shows us that he is done trying to bring all these opposing forces together and is even done with trying to keep up appearances. So, in conclusion, the narrative is not punishing him for breaking his vows, and it's not that the narrative views his vows as a good thing or his desires as a bad thing. The narrative is punishing him for regressing and giving up on trying to find the synthesis. But this low point always happens before the final act of the story in which the conflict is finally resolved and the new synthesis is reached. Jon has spent the story bringing together warring factions and his own warring desires, so we think that this conflict will continue to escalate in the last two books in such a way that Jon will eventually be trying to find the synthesis not only between his desires and his duty or the watch and the free folk but also between the forces of humanity and the forces of the Others. Like you said, grrm doesnt think war is a good thing, so while there will most certainly be war and violence between the Others and humanity, ultimately it's not about one force winning out, but it's about finding a synthesis, a new pact, reconciliation, and we believe Jon is being set up as the one to bring about this new peace. Sorry if this is all way too long but ive got a lot to say lol
he's trying to say he's tired and doesn't wanna write no more🥀
jesus christ this video goes nowhere for so long
I found my new favorite ASOIAF channel.
The main problem with George not finishing his work is that we can't really understand him until he does
There are many works (including some george wrote, like dying of the light) whose message can be totally flipped by the ending
I think i know what the theme is but i can't tell until he finishes it!
I think Dance and feast will be seen as bloated messes even IF george finishes though. Preston's revent video on how George added loads of chapters to what he thought was a finished book in order to write himself out of a corner suggests that he did add loads of extra stuff, not for themes but as a crutch, it isn't as tight as it could have been. When you know how he writes the books you know you CAN "over think" it by imbuing meaning into everything, when he makes a lot of mistakes or says things that he later forgets.
This is the most pretentious self-aggrandizing ramble I’ve ever heard.
"Nothing is ever worth it" - typical message from a lazy bum who won't ever finish his main work.
Now I'll watch the video :)
People confuse the fact that george was trying to kill time with worldbuilding for the sake of worldbuilding
It seems like every fan base thinks their favorite fantasy book is "closer to literary fiction than fantasy." Malazan, The First Law, ASOF, Broken Earth. At this point, the odd one out is Brandon Sanderson for just writing fantasy.
This better not be some nonsense about honor and religion being stupid, the way the show always did.
We hope we didn't disappoint!
@@WizardKissingCo Honestly, GOT feels at many times to be Asoiaf written by Sandor Clegane, or by Cersei.
@@josephbulkin9222 That's pretty hilarious. Dan and Dave were just Hound-pilled.
Medieval erotica and incest plus taking some of hp lovecraft lore and mix it whit the lich king oh and almost forgot about aragon tax policy
Its really not that complicated
Actually it is
Nobody knows what GRRM want to say because the books are not finished. I am in the camp that think the TV show has his ending.
Repeating what others say in a funny voice and comparing GRMM to Falkner dont an argument make.
The argument you make about Neds legacy of honor outliving him is a good one though. But we got to wait and see what happens.
You guys really haven't convinced me to any of your points.
The davos scene in the Sisters is criticized as mostly worldbuilding because Davos is just remembering the events that happened to him. Which is just boring and lazy writing.
Jon doesn't teach us that doing the right thing is hard. He shows us that ignoring your mens advices, downplaying the wrongs done to them by the wildlings and not explaining your goals in a persuasive manner results in them feeling betrayed.
Tywins biggest flaw is not producing a lordly heir. Kevan was closest to it but giving any legitimacy to the sparrows was stupid.
Your take on Sansa is perhaps the worst of them all. Littlefinger wins the services of a vale knight by providing him young boys to rape. And your takeaway is that Sansa that experienced Lannisters and this is gonna win vales nobility loyalty by being a good person?
GRRM punishes every religious and naively good person in asoiaf. As to Tyrion if you read enough you can smell the authors self-insert from miles away.