I love the old school silliness of gear drive timing set. What's the real negative result of using a Gear Drive? I have had them in all my SBC's over the years and never had a failure in hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm installing a GD in my BBC 427 (1969 -512 block) right now. This is my first BB.
Aussie here!! Interesting points! This would definitely be a good test for off the shelf cams However, if you get a custom grind, would you still try this or trust the expertise of the Cam manufacturer to get it right? I just had Cam Motion grind me a cam specifically for my application. I provided them with all of the data on the engine, and we ended up with 232/252 @ 117+5. I trust Cam motions expertise and that the grind will be exactly what I am looking for. However, I am defiantly dialling the camshaft in and checking PTV. This is to make sure everything is what it is meant to be. The alternative can be costly 😂
I use the Iwis chain, with a steel billet crank sprocket, with multiple key ways, and the cam sprocket with six bolts around the sprocket, similar to the cam sprocket on a Jesel belt drive. Usually those sets come from Rollmaster. It is always necessary to verify the chamfer on the crank sprocket and the radius on the crank sprout. If you don't, you may have the edge of the crank sprocket chamfer cut into the radius on the crank snout, causing a crank snout failure. The six bolt cam sprocket has never failed me, even at 8500 RPM, and with over 650# open spring pressure. It adjusts easily, and never moves if properly torqued. I have used that setup for nearly two decades, pretty much since it became available. It always works, it never fails, and it is easy to use. My normal procedure will have the crank sprocket installed in which ever key way allows me to install the cam sprocket at "0", and have the cam installed at the desired starting intake centerline. That allows a range of adjustment, and to return to the specified/desired intake centerline without reference to notes or records. I like Cloyes products, however I will not use their "hex-a-just" cam sprocket. That product is not robust or reliable. As an aside, I use the Clay Valley Racing timing covers, which use an o-ring to seal the two pieces of the timing covers, as well as dowel pins, and counter sunk socket head cap screws.
I always use them on performance engines They are used during assembly to get the cam timing spot on for what it is ment to be. Used in performance builds. If it's standard, slap it in dot to dot.
@@richardholdener1727 Summit brand LS timing sets have divorced crank gears and oil pumps. Summit sells PN 900330 to spin the oil pump with a socket driver when you are using a divorced timing set.
There are things i spend more time on than others and also stuff that i don't worry about, that many do. Like yah said,w/o testing, it's just a best guess. Would i take a chance sometimes, maybe but usually i just install it because I'm not gonna test if +/- helps or hurts.
Probably very dependent on what you're doing. I now feel like I wasted some precious time dialing in my custom cam (which was probably a waste of money, lol) on my stock bottom end junker fox that I upgraded the top end on about 10 years ago using a multi-index crank sprocket. It did run great, but for such a budget build, the dot-to-dot cam timing method would have come to the same result. But, I did learn a few things along the way.
I tried to use a non adjustable chain on my 351w build, and it ended up requiring the adjustable one to get it right where the cam grinder wanted it. I went custom because I had the time and money to do it.
I built a GM 3.4L DOHC 60V6 motor a while ago, the factory cam sprockets where adjustable base don design. I was a common mod to retard the exhuast timing. No one had proof except the seat of pants feel that it helps top end. I had reground cams. I did adjust the exhuast timing from the grinders recommendation to a larger LSA with hopes of increases to the top end power. Maybe one day I can get the engine on a dyno and play with timing changes since it only takes loosing the sprocket bolt and turning the motor.
Hey Richard. Missed the live, to answer the question, I will be installing my sprockets dot to dot. So my question now is a little off topic. I’m building a 88m turbo .030 over lq4 with forged pistons and rods for drag racing. I have both, btr stage 3 and a stage 4 turbo cams ( haven’t decided yet which to start with first). Both have lift of .618” / .618”. What lift valve springs would you recommend? I’ll be starting off with the 317s unfortunately.
Like always, thanks for the info Richard. .660 was what Iwas thinking. I asked the guys at btr the same question and they suggested the .685” lift springs. I was a little bit skeptical of springs with that much lift. Didn’t think they were necessary
Is the advantage of adjustability negated by the risk of mechanical failure by adding another component that can potentially come lose or be tightened incorrectly? I have adjustable cam gears on my RB26 as they are alloy and lighter than the stock items also I wanted power to come on a bit earlier. After having them adjusted it was more of a case of moving the power curve rather than an outright power gain. I’m not so sure about using an adjustable cam gears on my V8 build now.
That's usually all it ever does, is let you move peak torque around. You can either bias it earlier or later, but total torque and HP change is negligible. I've always played with mine as a seat of the pants feel thing, since on the dyno sure it tells you where it is but you don't know what the car wants. Driveline, rear end ratio, tires and wheels, total mass of the car, flywheel weight, etc all contribute to the dynamic feeling of the car. Being able to tune the engine "power onset" and peak torque helps match the power plant to the chassis/driveline combo.
@ what you have written is an excellent explanation. I essentially moved my power curve lower in the rev range to encourage boost to come on slightly earlier and have torque coming in a bit sooner. Seat of the pants dyno suggests I have achieved that. Unfortunately my dyno tune with adjustable cam gears was done 6 months apart with totally different atmospheric conditions so results are not definitive.
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I love the old school silliness of gear drive timing set. What's the real negative result of using a Gear Drive? I have had them in all my SBC's over the years and never had a failure in hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm installing a GD in my BBC 427 (1969 -512 block) right now. This is my first BB.
LOUD
@@richardholdener1727 Winning! :)
Aussie here!! Interesting points! This would definitely be a good test for off the shelf cams
However, if you get a custom grind, would you still try this or trust the expertise of the Cam manufacturer to get it right?
I just had Cam Motion grind me a cam specifically for my application. I provided them with all of the data on the engine, and we ended up with 232/252 @ 117+5. I trust Cam motions expertise and that the grind will be exactly what I am looking for. However, I am defiantly dialling the camshaft in and checking PTV. This is to make sure everything is what it is meant to be. The alternative can be costly 😂
I use the Iwis chain, with a steel billet crank sprocket, with multiple key ways, and the cam sprocket with six bolts around the sprocket, similar to the cam sprocket on a Jesel belt drive. Usually those sets come from Rollmaster.
It is always necessary to verify the chamfer on the crank sprocket and the radius on the crank sprout. If you don't, you may have the edge of the crank sprocket chamfer cut into the radius on the crank snout, causing a crank snout failure.
The six bolt cam sprocket has never failed me, even at 8500 RPM, and with over 650# open spring pressure. It adjusts easily, and never moves if properly torqued.
I have used that setup for nearly two decades, pretty much since it became available. It always works, it never fails, and it is easy to use.
My normal procedure will have the crank sprocket installed in which ever key way allows me to install the cam sprocket at "0", and have the cam installed at the desired starting intake centerline. That allows a range of adjustment, and to return to the specified/desired intake centerline without reference to notes or records.
I like Cloyes products, however I will not use their "hex-a-just" cam sprocket. That product is not robust or reliable.
As an aside, I use the Clay Valley Racing timing covers, which use an o-ring to seal the two pieces of the timing covers, as well as dowel pins, and counter sunk socket head cap screws.
I thought CVR stood for Clyde vickers racing?
I always use them on performance engines They are used during assembly to get the cam timing spot on for what it is ment to be. Used in performance builds. If it's standard, slap it in dot to dot.
Summits, and others adjustable LS timing sets allow you to prime the oil pumps with a special tool. Thats why i chose one for my 5.3 rebuild.
how is that possible
@@richardholdener1727 Summit brand LS timing sets have divorced crank gears and oil pumps. Summit sells PN 900330 to spin the oil pump with a socket driver when you are using a divorced timing set.
@richardholdener1727 summit 900330, combined with a summit or cloyes billet timing set.
two-piece crank gear on aftermarket sets, and a socket adapter oil drive.
There are things i spend more time on than others and also stuff that i don't worry about, that many do. Like yah said,w/o testing, it's just a best guess. Would i take a chance sometimes, maybe but usually i just install it because I'm not gonna test if +/- helps or hurts.
Probably very dependent on what you're doing. I now feel like I wasted some precious time dialing in my custom cam (which was probably a waste of money, lol) on my stock bottom end junker fox that I upgraded the top end on about 10 years ago using a multi-index crank sprocket. It did run great, but for such a budget build, the dot-to-dot cam timing method would have come to the same result. But, I did learn a few things along the way.
I tried to use a non adjustable chain on my 351w build, and it ended up requiring the adjustable one to get it right where the cam grinder wanted it. I went custom because I had the time and money to do it.
When you are building a race motor and keeping a journal, everything is documented.
@ I did the same thing, I just bet it didn't make a 2hp difference.
I built a GM 3.4L DOHC 60V6 motor a while ago, the factory cam sprockets where adjustable base don design. I was a common mod to retard the exhuast timing. No one had proof except the seat of pants feel that it helps top end.
I had reground cams. I did adjust the exhuast timing from the grinders recommendation to a larger LSA with hopes of increases to the top end power. Maybe one day I can get the engine on a dyno and play with timing changes since it only takes loosing the sprocket bolt and turning the motor.
Hey Richard. Missed the live, to answer the question, I will be installing my sprockets dot to dot. So my question now is a little off topic.
I’m building a 88m turbo .030 over lq4 with forged pistons and rods for drag racing. I have both, btr stage 3 and a stage 4 turbo cams ( haven’t decided yet which to start with first). Both have lift of .618” / .618”. What lift valve springs would you recommend? I’ll be starting off with the 317s unfortunately.
most common would be 650 or 660
Like always, thanks for the info Richard. .660 was what Iwas thinking. I asked the guys at btr the same question and they suggested the .685” lift springs. I was a little bit skeptical of springs with that much lift. Didn’t think they were necessary
**** Warning**** check P to V clearance when playing with these bolt on's
Is the advantage of adjustability negated by the risk of mechanical failure by adding another component that can potentially come lose or be tightened incorrectly? I have adjustable cam gears on my RB26 as they are alloy and lighter than the stock items also I wanted power to come on a bit earlier. After having them adjusted it was more of a case of moving the power curve rather than an outright power gain. I’m not so sure about using an adjustable cam gears on my V8 build now.
That's usually all it ever does, is let you move peak torque around.
You can either bias it earlier or later, but total torque and HP change is negligible.
I've always played with mine as a seat of the pants feel thing, since on the dyno sure it tells you where it is but you don't know what the car wants.
Driveline, rear end ratio, tires and wheels, total mass of the car, flywheel weight, etc all contribute to the dynamic feeling of the car.
Being able to tune the engine "power onset" and peak torque helps match the power plant to the chassis/driveline combo.
@ what you have written is an excellent explanation. I essentially moved my power curve lower in the rev range to encourage boost to come on slightly earlier and have torque coming in a bit sooner. Seat of the pants dyno suggests I have achieved that. Unfortunately my dyno tune with adjustable cam gears was done 6 months apart with totally different atmospheric conditions so results are not definitive.