I think the Valar were very weary of dominating Elves and Men for fear of becoming like Melkor, and perhaps they held off in the First Age for fear of destroying large parts of Middle Earth and making the lands of Men uninhabitable. Also the Silmarillion expressly mentions that the Valar were just like us in terms of persuading others (Elves and Men) and not often could they persuade or dissuade with words alone. But the Valar do change and adapt, the last time they directly intervene is at the end of the First Age and then, when Numenorians come to invade Valinor, the Valar won't raise a hand because they are afraid of directly killing the Children of Illuvatar (for fear of becoming like Melkor) so they ask Illuvatar to intervene and he does- by drowning Numenor and I think this really shocked the Valar because they clearly miscalculated. Thus the Valar intervened indirectly with the Istari and decided to guide Middle Earth to fight Sauron and this time there was no terrible destruction- so the Valar got it right in the end and the peoples of Middle Earth became empowered to deal with their own affairs. I also think the Doom of Mandos held the Valar's hand because if they tried to take the Silmarils by force then the curse could have been inflicted upon them- at least with Earendil he came freely with the Silmaril. Speaking of the next topic: The Music of the Ainur!
Great, thank you both! Three things that I like a lot about the Valar: 1. The fact that in his 1964 interview Tolkien is asked whether he believes in the Valar "outside the books", and upon some reflection he answers "Yes, certainly". ruclips.net/video/bzDtmMXJ1B4/видео.html (around 38:00) 2. The fact that they are at the same time so close and so different from the oyarsa/oyeresu, the planet gods of the Space Trilogy by Lewis. Well, Lewis himself certainly regarded the world of these books as the future of Tolkien's world, linked by misspelled Numinor. And I like this connection. 3. The fact that in the Lost Tales there is the name of one single Ainu from outside Arda - Aluin, the Time. The idea itself is fascinating, and it reminds us that the Valar are actually within time and space, Mandos included, and they have taken these freely as their creative limitations.
I'm so sorry that I'm incredibly behind in commenting but please know I am watching even when I'm silent and that truly value you and all the hard work you put into your content. It's one of the reasons that you're a top tier creator-your enthusiasm is boundless and your work engaging. And you and Lexi together are absolutely always on fire. You touched on what always bothered me with the valar. Even if they didn't directly create I think that by setting things into motion they had a duty of care they failed to carry through with. I also do think that by not making them 'gods' directly Tolkien was able to find that balance that honored classical traditions and his own faith. I suspect that part of the reason Ulmo is so well loved isn't just that he continues to interact with those in middle earth. It's that as a result of those interactions we get to 'know' him a lot better than the rest. That's far more content/emotional connection to draw upon. It's almost frustrating how little we get of he whole spectrum of valar. I absolutely adore the mention of mistakes being accounted for. And that 'pure evil' really isn't a broad enough or worthy enough concept to give to the true development of this story. As to the commentor I will never understand how people get THAT wrapped up in fiction that they think a literary preference translates to a real life action. Clearly they don't know you as you are the sweetest person possible. The point of the matter is that 'baddies' create tension which creates intrigue. Without a foe heroes wouldn't have a reason to shine. After all, the reason I get strange looks for liking 'boring' characters as well is that continued steadfastness /dedication is greatly undervalued in comparison to brash bravery with a whole lot of luck. While I am by no means a great artist I'm afraid even at my meager talents I am useless to your art request as landscapes are just sooo not something I can even begin to envision in my head... though the Máhanaxar did seem glorious to entertain. Thank you so much for another wonderful video!
Thank you ladies, for a wonderful discussion. I agree with GNG that Manwe has a hard time, in that his reaction to Melkor must be a sort of, "You were my brother, Anakin!" But even the Vala are overwhelmed by everything that happens. They don't view it as their right or duty to destroy any other being, but rather must act to guard against evil or restrain it. As far as Tolkien's religion, I get the feeling he was one of those who believed in the old saying, "A place for everything, and everything in its place." That included humans. It's not that he didn't believe in free will; his characters are able to make choices and must deal with the consequences. But it's more like how we might look at nature. Things might be somewhat chaotic on small scales, but it all fits together like a plan. People in his day were much more aware of having a certain place and function in society. Frank Herbert (of Dune) even wrote, "Destroy the place and you destroy the person." Their attitude seemed to be something like, "Well here we are in the castle, so someone's got to play the fool. It's a kind of division of labor. It's not ours to question, but only to fulfill our part, in a sense. Tolkien's lore went deep. The Silmarillion is my all-time favorite single-volume story. What a tale! tavi.
Maybe the moral lesson from the Valar is that one does not save an ideal by compromising it. With their obsession with 'the ends justify the means' showing a certain failure on their part, that said their involvement hadn't exactly had great results in the First Age. The only ones who seem to have made the right choices time and again being Nienna, Tulkas & Ulmo. With this being one of the great differences between them and the rest of the Valar.
I agree with the idea that the Valar's way of thought would be alien to our own. In particular, I don't think the Valar really understood evil at all initially; it took them quite some time to realize the Melkor was genuinely evil and what that meant. I think it is also relevant when trying to understand the actions of the Valar is that Eru placed limits on what they can do. Remember than Manwë was closest in mind to Eru and best understood Eru's will. I imagine there were any number of times the Valar did want to take some sort of action only to have Manwë tell them Eru would not allow it. As far as I know, the Valar were forbidden from taking direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar, which is why they couldn't force the elves to go to Aman, force the Noldor to stay in Aman, or use force against men when Númenor launched their attempted invasion of Aman. Oh, and if you think the way of thought of the Valar was strange, imagine what that of Eru must have been like. Also, I take issue with the idea that it was a mistake for the Valar to want the elves to go to Aman. In the end, they either had to go there or fade away to near nothingness. The elves that went to and stayed in Aman seem to have done well for themselves.
If you think of the Valar as embodiments of the elements , and the elements of existence itself (dreams , death) it makes more sense to me at least . They wore the raiment of their Element in the same way as they are personalities and yet the primal forces of nature at the same time .
It doesn't seem like the Valar are always intervening in small matters, yet there is intervention in small matters, such as when Merry and Pippin are saved from Grishnakh. Which makes me think that Eru Illuvatar does intervene in the world, just not in a directly 'speaking to people' kind of way, but rather, in the ordering of these chance occurrences. At least, we never hear of anything like 'So Ulmo set things up so that a dwarf would stub his toe and this would lead to Turgon getting the thing he needed to defend himself' or anything like that. Another example might be Bilbo getting the Ring. I feel like that might have been Illuvatar, not the Valar, who was setting up that plan.
Great discussion. There would be no story without Mellkor and Sauron. One of the best aspects of the Silmarillion is the 3 dimensionality of many Elves and some of the Men.
I used to love hearing about Greek mythology so the Silmarillion was not troubling in that way. My problem was that I read the Lost Tales Book One first.
I *am* a tricksy spreader of pro-Manwe propaganda. 🤣 Of course the main reason I like him is because I doubt very much you can have a brother (albeit one 'in the thought of Eru') like Melkor and turn out entirely normal....
So GNG's proposed end reminds me of Origenes and his theory of universal reconciliation. He believed that in the end even the devil would come back to God. This was quickly deemed heretical but recently it has been picked up by some Christians. Whereas your view of cyclicity reminds me more of an Eastern perspective, a yin/yang duality where the tension between the two poles ultimately is what keeps the world going.
I was actually wondering if someone was going to bring up the universalist heresy! George MacDonald, who was an influence on Tolkien's writing (if perhaps not his theology; I'd have to research that more) had some universalist inclinations, which I will freely use as my spurious justification that imaginatively, at least, Middle-earth is more compatible with that than with strict orthodoxy. I don't claim to speak for @TheCluelessFangirl on the matter of duality but I will say it reminds me a lot of Star Wars....
I think we're often too quick to judge Manwe and other Ainur as if they were human when they are fundamentally different beings from us with perspectives we don't have - and they have been given a complex, everlasting task by Eru that we don't fully understand. If we agree that characters who accept the Valar's authority like Finarfin or Gandalf are wise and a lot more knowledgeable than us, we should be refrain from saying the Valar did something wrong when we have no source except our own feelings on the matter. For example, saying that the Valar were wrong in not fighting Sauron more directly in the Third Age is essentially claiming that Gandalf was wrong about what he should do, and that you know better than him.
From “our”-meaning the Childrens’ point of view-yes. Probably. But two things: a) in some of the HoME passages, it is clear that some of the Valar feared the complete destruction of Arda if they did. And, because they lacked estel or Hope as GNG stated, they would not or could not risk such of think; b) they were explicitly stated to be weary of the fight. Particularly Aule and Tulkas. One cannot fight or repair forever.
I guess it should be noted, both Ancient Greek mythology and Germanic mythology all can be traced back to a reconstructed Proto-Indo European mythology. So, there are a lot of parallels because they're based on a lot of the same myths and beliefs that changed and morphed over time.
The salt must flow ( dune spice ). I read a terrible article claiming there is no Christian influence on Tolkien's ( lord of the rings) specifically. I had a headache after reading ( i don't recommend it )
In Greek mythology the gods are essentially amoral - Zeus is a serial rapist and the gods in general are capricious and often hostile to mankind or individual humans. The Titans are more sympathetic characters in many ways.
I have a much bigger bone to pick with Eru than the Valar, especially regarding Numenor. Killing a whole society, women and children and elder and the faithful, because of the decision of their King? But, and this is the cherry on the cake, NOT Ar-Pharazon? Fuck that guy. I mean Eru not Ar-Pharazon. Ok both of them, really.
well, it's not *just some bad decisions of the king. Big parts of Numenor thought like their last kings and the days darkened. But yes, it was a bit harsh what then happened.
@@tominiowa2513 but I don’t believe in that guy. Eru is a character, hence I cannot dismiss him so blithely. If I can get my heart broken by Maedhros and Celebrimbor, and in extreme cases, Sauron, I can get angry as hell with Eru. (Seriously, though, I cannot understand how a sincere theist like Tolkien undoubtedly was can construct a fictional deity and still make them monstrous. I am genuinely disturbed by a fictional deity like I am not, as an atheist, by the irascible protagonist of the Bible.)
@@annafdd Well, it is no secret that YHWH is so monstrous in the eyes of some (but not mainstream Catholics) that they have trouble reconciling the Old Testament/Torah and New Testament as having the same God. So if you want to blame Tolkien for something, blame him for not diverging from his religion in writing his fiction.
"but then there wouldnt be a story" - is not a good enough argument for why a rational character with the ability does not use it. There either needs to be some other motivation to withhold his action or he is simply badly written. It's like if I had a magic button I could press at anytime that would 'Fix everything' and i never used it despite going through horror. Then there would need to be established a really good reason for me not to use it, otherwise it becomes nonsensical and unbelievable.
@@thecluelessfangirl809 i think it was around the 35 min mark. You discussed something about the Valar knowing they could defeat Melkor & yet chose to hide & do nothing for very long, until Ëarendil came. And then again with Sauron. If i had to guess Manwe's reasons for inaction it would be something like being afraid that a direct confrontation & war with Melkor would cause long suffering for the children of Iluvatar & perhaps cause irreparable damage to Arda itself.
@@thecluelessfangirl809 Nothing. Just a good episode, with many insights, that's all. I think looking at the Valar, especially Melkor from a Jungian perspective is a very rich perspective and much of the discussion was very similar to that point of view.
Love Melkor? Fascinated by him, enjoy reading about him, yes, yes, but LOVE him??? Melkor and Sauron are psychopaths. Zues is a human-like "little god". I just can't LOVE someone like Jeff Dalmer or any serial killer. What GOOD did either Melkor or Sauron EVER produce?? I assume you both claim that both, initially, were good. Where is the proof?
The Valar weren't gods but faith servants of Illuvatar tasked with managing the material world and keeping Melkor and his servants at bay. But there task was not to influence the Children of Illuvatar and in that sense they were not prophets like Moses and Jesus, but Moses and Jesus were messengers who claimed to speak for God and were, if you believe their claims, faithful servants of God carrying out God's Will. Where it gets fascinating is that the Valar are sentient personifications of Illuvatar's creative powers- because they are literally derived from the thought of Illuvatar. It is the races of Men who call the Valar gods for they are aware of their powers and their presence but did not interact with the Valar as the Elves did. The Valar are actually a mixture of religion, mythology and science fiction: religion because they come from a Supreme Divine Being, mythology because they can be considered like a pantheon and science fiction because the Valar have great powers of telekinesis to shape the physical world. Finally, I think if Tolkien continued writing stories for the 4th age he would have included Jesus-like figures who would have arrived to teach the Men of Middle Earth about Illuvatar and to reveal Illuvatar's commandments or philosophies. The Elves did not need such figures for they were immortal but bound to Arda, they were quasi spiritual beings and generally more enlightened and gifted then Men. And it was the Elves who provided the foundations for language and culture among the numerous races of Men, without the Elves I think Men would be still in the Stone Age on Middle Earth. Which could explain why the Elves came first, for they were like angels bound to first the flesh and then to Arda forever, and then Men came second.
You're two are bright women and have done a nice job with this. However, here is a suggestion to both of you. Broaden your horizon and embrace science. Science is fact based, not story based. Keeps you grounded. I have NO favorite Vala, but love reality as well as LOTR and the Legendarium.
I think the Valar were very weary of dominating Elves and Men for fear of becoming like Melkor, and perhaps they held off in the First Age for fear of destroying large parts of Middle Earth and making the lands of Men uninhabitable. Also the Silmarillion expressly mentions that the Valar were just like us in terms of persuading others (Elves and Men) and not often could they persuade or dissuade with words alone.
But the Valar do change and adapt, the last time they directly intervene is at the end of the First Age and then, when Numenorians come to invade Valinor, the Valar won't raise a hand because they are afraid of directly killing the Children of Illuvatar (for fear of becoming like Melkor) so they ask Illuvatar to intervene and he does- by drowning Numenor and I think this really shocked the Valar because they clearly miscalculated. Thus the Valar intervened indirectly with the Istari and decided to guide Middle Earth to fight Sauron and this time there was no terrible destruction- so the Valar got it right in the end and the peoples of Middle Earth became empowered to deal with their own affairs.
I also think the Doom of Mandos held the Valar's hand because if they tried to take the Silmarils by force then the curse could have been inflicted upon them- at least with Earendil he came freely with the Silmaril.
Speaking of the next topic: The Music of the Ainur!
ironically in a way morgoth and Sauron understood more the men and their fears comapared to the valar
It's always great to see two people that I watch regularly come together and discuss their, thoughts and ideas of the world Tolkien created. :)
thank you for always leaving nice comments - means a lot!
Ulmo is definitely my favorite Vala for exactly the reasons Lexi mentioned. 😁
;)
"girl next gondor" HAH! love the name☺
Lexi has the best name amongst the TolkienTubers ;)
Great, thank you both!
Three things that I like a lot about the Valar:
1. The fact that in his 1964 interview Tolkien is asked whether he believes in the Valar "outside the books", and upon some reflection he answers "Yes, certainly". ruclips.net/video/bzDtmMXJ1B4/видео.html (around 38:00)
2. The fact that they are at the same time so close and so different from the oyarsa/oyeresu, the planet gods of the Space Trilogy by Lewis. Well, Lewis himself certainly regarded the world of these books as the future of Tolkien's world, linked by misspelled Numinor. And I like this connection.
3. The fact that in the Lost Tales there is the name of one single Ainu from outside Arda - Aluin, the Time. The idea itself is fascinating, and it reminds us that the Valar are actually within time and space, Mandos included, and they have taken these freely as their creative limitations.
yes, Aluin - I LOVED that concept. Glad we didn't learn he ate his children like his greek twin Chronos ;)
@@thecluelessfangirl809 well, glad we don't have any war between the older and younger generations of the Ainur) Or do we?
@@strocau "Children of the Valar"-verse for life. Fionwe son of Manwe throwing down with dear old Uncle Melkie. 🤣
I'm so sorry that I'm incredibly behind in commenting but please know I am watching even when I'm silent and that truly value you and all the hard work you put into your content. It's one of the reasons that you're a top tier creator-your enthusiasm is boundless and your work engaging. And you and Lexi together are absolutely always on fire.
You touched on what always bothered me with the valar. Even if they didn't directly create I think that by setting things into motion they had a duty of care they failed to carry through with. I also do think that by not making them 'gods' directly Tolkien was able to find that balance that honored classical traditions and his own faith. I suspect that part of the reason Ulmo is so well loved isn't just that he continues to interact with those in middle earth. It's that as a result of those interactions we get to 'know' him a lot better than the rest. That's far more content/emotional connection to draw upon. It's almost frustrating how little we get of he whole spectrum of valar.
I absolutely adore the mention of mistakes being accounted for. And that 'pure evil' really isn't a broad enough or worthy enough concept to give to the true development of this story.
As to the commentor I will never understand how people get THAT wrapped up in fiction that they think a literary preference translates to a real life action. Clearly they don't know you as you are the sweetest person possible. The point of the matter is that 'baddies' create tension which creates intrigue. Without a foe heroes wouldn't have a reason to shine. After all, the reason I get strange looks for liking 'boring' characters as well is that continued steadfastness /dedication is greatly undervalued in comparison to brash bravery with a whole lot of luck.
While I am by no means a great artist I'm afraid even at my meager talents I am useless to your art request as landscapes are just sooo not something I can even begin to envision in my head... though the Máhanaxar did seem glorious to entertain.
Thank you so much for another wonderful video!
Thank you ladies, for a wonderful discussion. I agree with GNG that Manwe has a hard time, in that his reaction to Melkor must be a sort of, "You were my brother, Anakin!" But even the Vala are overwhelmed by everything that happens. They don't view it as their right or duty to destroy any other being, but rather must act to guard against evil or restrain it. As far as Tolkien's religion, I get the feeling he was one of those who believed in the old saying, "A place for everything, and everything in its place." That included humans. It's not that he didn't believe in free will; his characters are able to make choices and must deal with the consequences. But it's more like how we might look at nature. Things might be somewhat chaotic on small scales, but it all fits together like a plan. People in his day were much more aware of having a certain place and function in society. Frank Herbert (of Dune) even wrote, "Destroy the place and you destroy the person." Their attitude seemed to be something like, "Well here we are in the castle, so someone's got to play the fool. It's a kind of division of labor. It's not ours to question, but only to fulfill our part, in a sense. Tolkien's lore went deep. The Silmarillion is my all-time favorite single-volume story. What a tale! tavi.
Maybe the moral lesson from the Valar is that one does not save an ideal by compromising it. With their obsession with 'the ends justify the means' showing a certain failure on their part, that said their involvement hadn't exactly had great results in the First Age.
The only ones who seem to have made the right choices time and again being Nienna, Tulkas & Ulmo. With this being one of the great differences between them and the rest of the Valar.
I agree with the idea that the Valar's way of thought would be alien to our own. In particular, I don't think the Valar really understood evil at all initially; it took them quite some time to realize the Melkor was genuinely evil and what that meant. I think it is also relevant when trying to understand the actions of the Valar is that Eru placed limits on what they can do. Remember than Manwë was closest in mind to Eru and best understood Eru's will. I imagine there were any number of times the Valar did want to take some sort of action only to have Manwë tell them Eru would not allow it. As far as I know, the Valar were forbidden from taking direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar, which is why they couldn't force the elves to go to Aman, force the Noldor to stay in Aman, or use force against men when Númenor launched their attempted invasion of Aman. Oh, and if you think the way of thought of the Valar was strange, imagine what that of Eru must have been like.
Also, I take issue with the idea that it was a mistake for the Valar to want the elves to go to Aman. In the end, they either had to go there or fade away to near nothingness. The elves that went to and stayed in Aman seem to have done well for themselves.
Thanks, Helen and lexi .
;)
You both did absolutely amazing by the way. Love everything you do. Thank you! ☺️
yay, you're always so sweet, Austin, thank you!
@@thecluelessfangirl809 your very welcome. ☺️
If you think of the Valar as embodiments of the elements , and the elements of existence itself (dreams , death) it makes more sense to me at least .
They wore the raiment of their Element in the same way as they are personalities and yet the primal forces of nature at the same time .
It doesn't seem like the Valar are always intervening in small matters, yet there is intervention in small matters, such as when Merry and Pippin are saved from Grishnakh. Which makes me think that Eru Illuvatar does intervene in the world, just not in a directly 'speaking to people' kind of way, but rather, in the ordering of these chance occurrences. At least, we never hear of anything like 'So Ulmo set things up so that a dwarf would stub his toe and this would lead to Turgon getting the thing he needed to defend himself' or anything like that.
Another example might be Bilbo getting the Ring. I feel like that might have been Illuvatar, not the Valar, who was setting up that plan.
Two great channels that I am proud to be subscribed to
AWWWW, thank makes me so happy to hear, thank you! :)
I was literally thinking "if only there was a video about the valar" I go on RUclips and booooom your video pops up 🤩🤩🤩
Awww, cool. Hope you enjoyed it!
@@thecluelessfangirl809 loved it.
Great discussion. There would be no story without Mellkor and Sauron. One of the best aspects of the Silmarillion is the 3 dimensionality of many Elves and some of the Men.
100% with you Frank!
Very cool topic choice. My favourite Vala is either Ulmo or Nienna.
I also like Varda, I mean she has the light of Ilivuatar shining on her face.
Varda is the BEST! I agree!
So... GNG (Lexi) Silmarils for everyone, when?
Great discussion!!! Was fun listening to the both of you talk (simp) for Melkor... Lol...
he is one of the baddies in Fantasy Literature we actually do know a lot about (if you know the extended Lore), so it is easy to *like him.
@@thecluelessfangirl809 you mean simp for him... Mairon I understand, but Melkor... Not quite...
Great discussion, thank you ladies 💚
it's always so much fun to hang and chat with Lexi, glad you enjoyed it!! :)
Love the open discussion on your videos!
And I love having guests. Just recorded one with Yoystan for this Friday.
I always know it's gonna be a good time when Helen has me on (or vice versa).
Yes! I always love your colabs with GNG.
I have THE best time when chatting with Lexi, glad you enjoyed it Esther!! :)
I used to love hearing about Greek mythology so the Silmarillion was not troubling in that way. My problem was that I read the Lost Tales Book One first.
oh, big mistake lol ;)
Hooray same clothes
haha, it's all an illusion Howie
Loved this discussion so much! Excellent content 💕. I always thought Manwe was the boring one, but GNG changed my mind 😁. Love you two!
Manwe IS boring, don't let Lexi fool you Allison ;)
@@thecluelessfangirl809 😂😂😂
I *am* a tricksy spreader of pro-Manwe propaganda. 🤣 Of course the main reason I like him is because I doubt very much you can have a brother (albeit one 'in the thought of Eru') like Melkor and turn out entirely normal....
Hey there Ms.Hellen. Could you possibly ask your mom to paint a picture of the Helcaraxë? She would for sure do an amazing job.
she's a medium painter, she's an arts professor, not an artist ;)
@@thecluelessfangirl809 I might know someone who can do an epic painting.
@@thecluelessfangirl809 I totally have an idea about a possible short story about Feanor and the time of the oath that I'd like to share with you.
So GNG's proposed end reminds me of Origenes and his theory of universal reconciliation. He believed that in the end even the devil would come back to God. This was quickly deemed heretical but recently it has been picked up by some Christians.
Whereas your view of cyclicity reminds me more of an Eastern perspective, a yin/yang duality where the tension between the two poles ultimately is what keeps the world going.
I was actually wondering if someone was going to bring up the universalist heresy! George MacDonald, who was an influence on Tolkien's writing (if perhaps not his theology; I'd have to research that more) had some universalist inclinations, which I will freely use as my spurious justification that imaginatively, at least, Middle-earth is more compatible with that than with strict orthodoxy.
I don't claim to speak for @TheCluelessFangirl on the matter of duality but I will say it reminds me a lot of Star Wars....
@@GirlNextGondor Nah. CluelessFangirl has no special affection for Star Wars. That's just ridiculous.
Another great discussion on Tolkien and his world 🙌🏻
😀🙏🏻
I think we're often too quick to judge Manwe and other Ainur as if they were human when they are fundamentally different beings from us with perspectives we don't have - and they have been given a complex, everlasting task by Eru that we don't fully understand.
If we agree that characters who accept the Valar's authority like Finarfin or Gandalf are wise and a lot more knowledgeable than us, we should be refrain from saying the Valar did something wrong when we have no source except our own feelings on the matter. For example, saying that the Valar were wrong in not fighting Sauron more directly in the Third Age is essentially claiming that Gandalf was wrong about what he should do, and that you know better than him.
Nice work thanks
In my mind the Valar made one crucial mistake. They never should have left Middle Earth for Aman.
From “our”-meaning the Childrens’ point of view-yes. Probably. But two things: a) in some of the HoME passages, it is clear that some of the Valar feared the complete destruction of Arda if they did. And, because they lacked estel or Hope as GNG stated, they would not or could not risk such of think; b) they were explicitly stated to be weary of the fight. Particularly Aule and Tulkas. One cannot fight or repair forever.
I guess it should be noted, both Ancient Greek mythology and Germanic mythology all can be traced back to a reconstructed Proto-Indo European mythology. So, there are a lot of parallels because they're based on a lot of the same myths and beliefs that changed and morphed over time.
Really interesting show.
The salt must flow ( dune spice ). I read a terrible article claiming there is no Christian influence on Tolkien's ( lord of the rings) specifically. I had a headache after reading ( i don't recommend it )
I heard about it Shane ... I mean some people deny the sky is blue when it's blue so you know ...
@@thecluelessfangirl809 true , the do , or the flat earth people. Lol
There was a guy trying to argue that point with Josh (Tolkien Lore channel), coming from the angle that Catholicism is not real Christianity. 🙄
@@tominiowa2513 thanks tom . ( i hate that argument) its a mine field.
The Valar function as gods but they can also be seen as archangels, where the Maiar are like ordinary angels (and demons)
In Greek mythology the gods are essentially amoral - Zeus is a serial rapist and the gods in general are capricious and often hostile to mankind or individual humans. The Titans are more sympathetic characters in many ways.
I missed out in life.. I needed to find a nerdy cute girl with interests in Tolkien, Marvel, and of course the best band EVER, Pink Floyd.
I have a much bigger bone to pick with Eru than the Valar, especially regarding Numenor. Killing a whole society, women and children and elder and the faithful, because of the decision of their King? But, and this is the cherry on the cake, NOT Ar-Pharazon? Fuck that guy. I mean Eru not Ar-Pharazon. Ok both of them, really.
Not Just the Men, but the Women and Children Too!!!
well, it's not *just some bad decisions of the king. Big parts of Numenor thought like their last kings and the days darkened. But yes, it was a bit harsh what then happened.
Not as bad as YHWH drowning the whole world other than Noah and family and two of each kind of animal?
@@tominiowa2513 but I don’t believe in that guy. Eru is a character, hence I cannot dismiss him so blithely. If I can get my heart broken by Maedhros and Celebrimbor, and in extreme cases, Sauron, I can get angry as hell with Eru. (Seriously, though, I cannot understand how a sincere theist like Tolkien undoubtedly was can construct a fictional deity and still make them monstrous. I am genuinely disturbed by a fictional deity like I am not, as an atheist, by the irascible protagonist of the Bible.)
@@annafdd Well, it is no secret that YHWH is so monstrous in the eyes of some (but not mainstream Catholics) that they have trouble reconciling the Old Testament/Torah and New Testament as having the same God. So if you want to blame Tolkien for something, blame him for not diverging from his religion in writing his fiction.
"but then there wouldnt be a story" - is not a good enough argument for why a rational character with the ability does not use it. There either needs to be some other motivation to withhold his action or he is simply badly written.
It's like if I had a magic button I could press at anytime that would 'Fix everything' and i never used it despite going through horror. Then there would need to be established a really good reason for me not to use it, otherwise it becomes nonsensical and unbelievable.
which character are we talking? I've recorded this a while ago ...
@@thecluelessfangirl809 i think it was around the 35 min mark.
You discussed something about the Valar knowing they could defeat Melkor & yet chose to hide & do nothing for very long, until Ëarendil came.
And then again with Sauron.
If i had to guess Manwe's reasons for inaction it would be something like being afraid that a direct confrontation & war with Melkor would cause long suffering for the children of Iluvatar & perhaps cause irreparable damage to Arda itself.
Thanks gals. If I try to be specific it will just be a Jungian purge, so just gracias.
lol, what? I literally don't know what you said :D
@@thecluelessfangirl809 Nothing. Just a good episode, with many insights, that's all. I think looking at the Valar, especially Melkor from a Jungian perspective is a very rich perspective and much of the discussion was very similar to that point of view.
Manwë 4 life!
Love Melkor? Fascinated by him, enjoy reading about him, yes, yes, but LOVE him??? Melkor and Sauron are psychopaths. Zues is a human-like "little god".
I just can't LOVE someone like Jeff Dalmer or any serial killer.
What GOOD did either Melkor or Sauron EVER produce?? I assume you both claim that both, initially, were good. Where is the proof?
The Valar weren't gods but faith servants of Illuvatar tasked with managing the material world and keeping Melkor and his servants at bay. But there task was not to influence the Children of Illuvatar and in that sense they were not prophets like Moses and Jesus, but Moses and Jesus were messengers who claimed to speak for God and were, if you believe their claims, faithful servants of God carrying out God's Will. Where it gets fascinating is that the Valar are sentient personifications of Illuvatar's creative powers- because they are literally derived from the thought of Illuvatar. It is the races of Men who call the Valar gods for they are aware of their powers and their presence but did not interact with the Valar as the Elves did.
The Valar are actually a mixture of religion, mythology and science fiction: religion because they come from a Supreme Divine Being, mythology because they can be considered like a pantheon and science fiction because the Valar have great powers of telekinesis to shape the physical world.
Finally, I think if Tolkien continued writing stories for the 4th age he would have included Jesus-like figures who would have arrived to teach the Men of Middle Earth about Illuvatar and to reveal Illuvatar's commandments or philosophies. The Elves did not need such figures for they were immortal but bound to Arda, they were quasi spiritual beings and generally more enlightened and gifted then Men. And it was the Elves who provided the foundations for language and culture among the numerous races of Men, without the Elves I think Men would be still in the Stone Age on Middle Earth. Which could explain why the Elves came first, for they were like angels bound to first the flesh and then to Arda forever, and then Men came second.
You're two are bright women and have done a nice job with this. However, here is a suggestion to both of you. Broaden your horizon and embrace science. Science is fact based, not story based. Keeps you grounded. I have NO favorite Vala, but love reality as well as LOTR and the Legendarium.
Mandos is the worst character in the book