Theme vs. Leitmotif
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Let's finally clear up some terminology issues floating around on the internet.
Twitter: / sideways440
Twitch: / sideways440
Disclaimer:
If some parts of this video look familiar to a few of you, that's because they were elements of a previous video that I took down.
I'm striving to do my very best in explaining everything in these videos, but in the few cases where I either don't explain myself well enough, am vague, or in some cases don't back up my claims with enough sources, I will remake the video so that it will make more sense.
If I happened to have taken down your favorite video, sit tight, chances are I'm in the middle of remaking it.
Thank you for your patience.
I'm still new at this!
we need a leitmotif for leitmotifs so that everytime sideways speaks of a leitmotif that leitmotif starts playing in the background
So you can add a note for every letter from "leitmotif": if you take the french mode would be: E E B F F A F B F . These are the notes so create a leitmotif with the notes of leitmotif as the tone you prefer.
You're both geniuses
Consider my mind blown.
Based
You mean the Seinfeld motif?
"Did someone just die? Play the someone-dies music!"
"Dies irae...~!"
Yes!! I recognize it and I freak out... (some examples is in a 7th grade band piece about that one story about Perseus and also they used it in the 1st Lostbelt in Fate Grand Order...)
Simba! What have you done?!
Cues Frozen 2 music
So, basically:
Theme = The star wars theme; Or the imperial march as a melody representing the Empire in general.
Motif = The star wars theme alone, as a musical construct, usually the part that gets stuck in your head.
Leitmotif = Versions of imperial march, when it plays in dramatic moments where the empire is about to kick ass, or some character seems to fall to the dark side.
Thank you, Katrina!
So all this time I had motifs confused with leitmotif. Well I guess this is good to know - thanks
da da dum dun dun! I just heard the leitmotif in my head LOL=
A theme is "Welcome" or "His Highness' Theme" from Mother 3
A motif would be the trumpet riffs in "Welcome"
A leitmotif is bits of "His Highness' Theme" in several songs throughout the game.
Another example is Indiana Jones and the last crusade. The holy grail has a theme but a certain leitmotif of it happens every time the grail is mentioned.
I think that Lord of the rings fully realised leitmotif the best. Every character, relationships between characters and specific moments have their own theme. And oh my god it's so amazing! Probably my favourite score ever.
Until you get to the third movie and you've been listening to a very similar score for ~6 hours already. Don't get me wrong, its amazing, but it got kinda repetitive. And when it comes down to it it wasn't particularly complex, just basic leitmotifs repeated.
Danul83 Dude. Dude... Duudee... You should rest for a while, you're not making sense
@@Panic_Pickle The LOTR trilogy has over 100 leitmotifs developed, deconstructed, & played differently each time. Widely hailed as the most complex score in cinematic history. Each film is even represented by a different primary leitmotif: The Fellowship, Rohan, & Gondor respectively. Hence, saying that they're just repetitive by the 3rd film doesn't hold any water. Might as well claim that Donald Trump is black.
@Spanish Moustache No one else here used the word "greatest". The keyword was "repetitive". And I don't think that's a matter of subjectivity.
@@Panic_Pickle There's a Wikipedia page titled "Music of The Lord of the Rings film series" with detailed info about the intricacies of the score. But here's 25 examples of just some of the trilogy's leitmotifs: ruclips.net/video/zSJxXnejto8/видео.html
It's weird that in 5 minutes you explained something clearly that made sense to me, when I've just completed a 4 year music degree at university and I don't remember them explaining this (well not this clearly anyway).
I'm studying history right now... I can't recall a single fucking thing beyond fun facts...
Maybe you just have adhd
Thank you for using Superman as an example. My introduction to film music in general was primarily that theme.
Would like but 69 and that's nice
Somebody put words to it:
ruclips.net/video/ELNh23yRiJc/видео.html
How the shittin hell is your channel so small
You should have 666K subs
Yeah I agree 🙂
he refused to sell his soul so he'll remain small
because "musicians" these days don't know anything about the fundamentals and theory about the art they're meant to produce
plus, he does a lot of analyses, which is something most people who listen to music don't do (casual listeners)
You have a conversational voice that makes music theory fun to learn about. This channel and all your content is just amazing. Here's to you my friend.
**Watches video**
This is pretty cool
**Mentions Ocarina of Time**
oH mY gOD ThIS IS amAZiNG
I'm so glad I found this channel. Do you guys know similar channels about media music? I have subscriptions to film and game design theory and analysis channels, but until now I didn't found anything like that about music, which is actually the subject I have the most interest in.
Gabriel Gallardo Adam Neely is a really good one!
Leelee Yep, I'm subscribed. But he does more music theory and things like perception, psychology of music and curiosities. I'm looking more for things like Now You See It (technical analysis on films) Lessons from the Screenplay (the name kinda sums it), Games as Literature (narrative analysis on videogames) or Mark Brown (game design theory). I'm basically talking about video essays for specific musical topics, techniques and pieces. More like the ones I cited above for the other art forms. More essays and analysis, and less curiosities. Basically less Vsauce :P
8-Bit music theory and Major Third are both channels that focus on music in video games, and Marshall McGee has videos centered around sound design in general. I highly recommend all three.
I know I'm late but I would recommend Jaime Altozano (if you speak Spanish)and 12tone (he gets reaaally theoretical).
Howard Ho does some goed musical analyses of modern musical theatre songs, if that's something you're interested in!
so basically you're saying a theme is the ENTIRETY of a musical piece that CONTAINS a motif (the most predominant melody in the theme)????? and if that specific motif is reiterated throughout a narrative to represent something (say, a character's presence or maybe a frightful moment) then it would become a leitmotif???
After rewatching this video over 50 times in a row to make sure I understood, imma say....yes?
1:41 was that part really necessary?
Was that part really necessary?
🤓🤓🤓 headass
Your videos are amazing, dude. I would love to hear you do an analysis on the Undertale soundtrack.
Specially with the leitmotif thing omg yes it would be DIVINE!
That would be great, I mean Sideways got his degree in music for the sole purpose of writing music for video games
If we're inserting that just because he used the word leitmotif, then I demand JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, too
Someone already did, and they did it extremely well. Enjoy: jasonyu.me/undertale-part-1/
He already talked about not doing a video on Undertale because he hasn't played the game yet. It's in his 100k sub Q&A video.
Wagner was ahead of his time :)
he invented sound effects lol
Hey! I know I've said this before but I really would like to hear what you have to say about the whole "Marvel music" conversation that was happening a while ago. I think that whatever you would have to say would be very enlightning and would bring a more educated opinion to the subject.
Thanks for the video.
I would have subscribed if you'd had respect for Wagner.
stay forever unsubscribed
I love this channel because of how well he teaches the topics. If something seems kinda long winded, it is put into context with pop/meme/nerd culture and I absolutely love it. Keep up the good work!
Out of all the videos on your channel this is the one I have re-watched most often.
I'm sure you probably have, but have u heard Yoko Shimomura's work in kingdom hearts? I love all the leitmotifs she uses for characters. maybe it's not nearly as sophisticated as I think it is but I like how alot of the music in KH can flow in and out of each other. it really can show how alot of the characters are connected. :)
0:25 tfw when the picture isn't a fugue but a ricercar.
Is that Memetri Feeltakovich
Oh yes.
So what, come bite me!!
yep. dictionary definition of ricercar: an elaborate contrapuntal instrumental composition in /fugal/ or canonic style, typically of the 16th to 18th centuries
well imitative counterpoint is a big thing in lots of things outside a fugue. In the late Middle Ages through late Baroque, there was a pretty great variety of genre designations including the ricercare, canzona, capriccio, fantasia, and the fugue itself. If all pieces called fugues were collected together and compared, no single common defining characteristic would be discovered beyond that of imitation, very broadly speaking. Despite the prominence of fugue in the history of Western art music and its virtually continuous
cultivation in one form or another from the late Middle Ages until today, there exists no widespread agreement among present-day
scholars on what its defining characteristics should be. According to my music history textbook, the ricercar was a "serious" composition for organ or harpsichord with one subject (theme) continuously developed in imitation. Even though it's imitation, the fugue was not developed yet. There was no clear alternation between imitation and free counterpoint. Other instrumental forms of the period, like what I mentioned before (besides the fugue), closely resembled the ricercare, particularly in the use of melodic imitation, and the names were often interchanged. The example at 0:25 is the one used for the Wikipedia entry for fugue, the six-part fugue in the Ricercar a 6 from Bach's "The Musical Offering", so I'd say it's pretty fugue-y to me! (can you tell I literally just got back from a music history lecture talking about this very topic lmao)
so in the hobbit movie when they star playing the music of the ringwraiths as the dwarven king is on a burning tree falling over... thats literally the wrong leitmotif?
I think the Zelda one is actually Zelda and Ganondorf's smushed together.
I love how sideways never misses an opportunity to dunk on Vagner.
Your Wagner characterisation is....wanting. Wagnerian Leitmotifs aren't just about representing something seen on stage, they are about developing the psychological and/or philosophical ideas those motifs represent in ways that the text cannot. They are an incredibly rich and penetrating musical tool. And we would not have anything like the films or videogames we enjoy today without his contributions to drama.
Dude it's a 5 minute video, and he had to simplify it so anyone could understand. Give him a break 🙄
well what can you expect from someone who chooses to reduce wagner to merely an antisemitic control freak
@@lnb29 I think he acknowledges Wagner’s importance. He just also acknowledges he was an antisemitic control freak
He fully explains this in his other videos, you know, the ones that are longer than five minutes.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Undertale at all in this video. Undertale is riddled with theme, motifs, and leitmotifs.
U N D E R T A L E I S C A N C E R
Thank you for your valuable input to the discussion.
Interesting point. I hadn't considered those implications.
Not when you're talking about Undertale in music; it has a lot of cool musical bit an pieces, hiding certain themes within others. It shows that Toby Fox not only is a pretty good game designer, but also a very talented composer.
Or I could be entirely wrong and Undertale really is the scum of the earth.
Also the story is pretty damn good and the characters are well written. It's a great game, it's just hated because of it's fan base and popularity.
A good example would be looking at recent Ace Combat 7 (and the older 04) soundtrack - there are many (like, 75% of the ost) tracks that are vastly different in what they represent as theme, but you can hear the exact same motif in every one, in different pitch or even instruments, but you just recognize the notes immediately
Devilman Crybaby is an example. 'D.V.M.N.' is epic and pumps you up, then you have the sad an melancholic ' Tears' and 'His Heart', and the light-hearted, heart-warming 'Wishy Washy'. They all share a leitmotif.
been really enjoying your content my bro, keep it up!
Geez, you would think having learned the word "leitmotiv" like 30 years ago, I could have had a concrete understanding of it. I had seen it in classes involving both music and literature but could not get it. Your explanation clarifies things and hopefully, I will be able to retain the meaning of these words, now. Of course now, my problem is finding circles of people with whom I can use such words. lol Thank you!
That one leitmotif in Dark Souls 3. The soul of cinder fight.
This is why I adore Final Fantasy XIV’s soundtracks so much
Final Fantasy OSTs in general
THANK YOU!!! I've watched a couple of videos on RUclips on the issue of film music and nobody every mentions this (can't blame them...). It's so refreshing to watch a solid and detailed explanation on the topic that actually makes sense and is based on good theory with great examples.
Wow, that thing about coins in SM Galaxy is really subtle and cool.
This is such a well made video! Your explanation was on point, so much so that even a musical nonce as me could grasp the concept, and the examples you used perfectly illustrated the points you made!
Wagner was a pure genius, nothing less.
I would much rather have watched this 6 minute video than go into class that one day they attempted to teach leitmotifs at 9 in the morning
Great example is the Imperial March in Star Wars for Darth Vader.
Really enjoy your videos man. Keep them coming!
Ahhhh, okay, this was extremely helpful because I'm musically illiterate but I can tell that the Treasure Planet movie's musical scoring is doing SOMETHING to help with the narrative at various parts, and I'd just love to know what it is hence my trying to find resources to understand something I received no education in, so thank you!
I love Twilight Princess. Thanks for using it as an example. I haven’t seen it online often and it’s good to see someone so amazing use it as an example.
Where is your "Why Super Mario feels like an opera" video? ;-;
I hope it wasn't taken down for Copyright reasons.
Ever since I saw this video and and all others related i have never watched a movie or series the same way. Learning about leitmotifs changed everything.
Could you do a more in depth video on leitmotifs? Specifically on their _versatility_ (that would be awesome!)
Thank you for making this easy to understand and soooooo entertaining. Love your stuff!
I can honestly say this is the channel of my dreams. Great work!
Hans Zimmer absolutely NAILS these constructs in the Dune Pt 2 soundtrack! It has everything! A masterpiece IMO.
that's the sort of question I'vve never asked myself about but have never known the answer
This channel was in my suggestions. And HOLY FLAMMING TATER TOT IM GLAD IT WAS!!! Been being everything this past week!
Dude, this is a freaking awesome channel, WE DEMAND MORE CONTENT!
this is like the nerdwriter1 but with music
really: great job!
Question, is the Sherane beat on Kendrick Lamar’s Good Kid M.a.A.d. City count as a Leitmotif because it appears again at the end of Poetic Justice later in the album when Kendrick is at her house looking for her and meets the guys who shoot his friend?
4:42 HOW DID I NOT NOTICE THAT?!
A drawing of Superman, a theme.
A drawing of the s symbol, a motif.
Wiggly vertical lines, a leitmotif for stinky things
I'm here from Jáime Altosano, saludos!
I've seriously watched basically all of your videos like 7 times... I actually feel smarter now that I'm taking in information that I'm actually interested in. Being creative is awesome :)
Your videos are helping a layperson like me appreciate the music I love in so many new ways. Thank you so much!!!
This explains the 10 some other of your videos I just watched.
Hey Sideways given that you've shown deep understanding of themes, motifs and leitmotifs, could you PLEASE analyze the music from La La Land? I noticed how Justin Hurwitz uses leitmotifs/motifs throughout the entire movie and would like to know your opinion about the function of the music in the movie, keep up the good work man :D
The coolest way to interpret multiversal sleeping beauty, is tails. If every universe exists, that then would include the universe which is solitary. It is only hidden from the rest. Everything is possible once tails is flipped
thanks to you sideways, i cant shut up about how fantastic leitmotifs are and where we see them in media
I absolutely love your channel as an aspiring hobbyist composer, i'm actually pursing computer science in University right now but I've begun messing around composing in musescore mostly right now.
Regardless I hope to improve, and i really enjoy your videos, they talk about some general ideas and stuff in very interesting ways, and your explanations are very well done!
So yeah, keep it up, you have an awesome channel!
So you know that moment in musicals where the big act finisher comes and most of the major leitmotifs are strung together and draped over each other in ridiculously satisfying and tense ways? Les Mis or Hamilton type?
Do you think those parts tend to be written first, to ensure that the sections actually sound good together before they're developed off into their own themes? Or is it more likely a lot of the music is already written and we're witnessing the composer scrambling to place them over each other in usable but recognizable keys and figure out a way for them all to resolve at the same time?
Also, I'd love to drop something in your twitch or patreon so I can convince you to talk about the way Great Comet goes beyond common uses of leitmotif with moments like Anatole's electronic drums becoming corrupted when his plan collapses or fading into hollow siren-like tones when he leaves
Day one of asking Sideways to talk about HAMILTON!!!!!
I give you my biggest thanks, this video has helped me understand a leitmotif for a project I have.
Welp, because more than a couple peeps mentioned Undertale "It has leitmotifs hurrhurr." I'll go on ahead and shoutout JoJo's Bizarre Adventure & also Final Fantasy just for the sake of it
I've been wrong about what I call leitmotif, I see now
But everyone who says the music is just arbitrarily re-used for laziness and doesn't represent anything are just hating it for the sake of hating it, because it definitely has themes
and the 3-8 notes at the starts of the themes' sections are the leitmotifs
@Hope Bagel
- Buccellati's leitmotif in _nella cerniera_ , _lotta feroce_ and _Traitor's Requiem Giorno Ver._ ?
- Diavolo's leitmotif in 11 tracks ?
- The leitmotif of Life in _il vento d'oro_ , _coercizione_ and _vita_ ?
There are so many leitmotif in JoJo and I just talked about 3 in Part 5...
3:57 I feel like a more optimised fingering for this theme would 2, 5. It allows for a lighter touch, as opposed to 1, 4, which has the heavy thumb on the first, quick, note.
Also, the unnecessary minim rest at the end of the motif could have been cut, and just represents a dead weight to the score.
This melody was poorly arranged, and the lack of quality is upsettingly disappointing. I hope that Joseph Karam will be able to do better on his next work, but, sadly, I do not expect it.
Very strong lead to a clear summary
this just completely clicked for me and i'm so happy
My theory class we just went over this today. I love these videos.
3:43 I like the specificity there!
Dude!
I freaking loved this video, and loved your Nintendo References, I was thinking about them, but was not expecting you to talk about then, that was amazing!
First Video I've seen from your Channel, already subscribed.
I actually went back to this video just to give it a like. It helped me a lot to understand the difference between a theme and a leitmotif. Especially in German, where "Theme" translates to topic, title song and, ironically, motif, it's often hard to get what composers meant when they call their pieces "XYZ theme". Thank you.
I really love leitmotifs specifically because of how they can be used in different contexts, showing how the same thing has now changed. it's redundant if it just shows up along with a character or object, but when its presence adds to the complexity and depth of understanding one can have in a moment that is when they truly shine
So basically the AVGN theme song is a theme, but when 9 notes of his theme are woven into the dramatic soundtrack of his movie whenever there's a defining character moment then it's a leitmotif? Hope I got that right.
My favorite scene and leitmotif is "the Hobbit - the little things/ why the halfling"
It's just PERFECT! Everything is so depressing and seems hopeless but the moment Gandalf talks about how Bilbo gives him strength, the "concerning Hobbits" theme lights up the mood so easily and perfect, if you aren't affected by that you should see a doctor! xD
Great Videos ^-^ just discovered your channel! Keep em coming! :D
you make music theory so interesting, please do more!!!
One Piece Overtaken is a good example of leitmotif
A great example is Avengers themes, every Avengers movie has the Avengers theme but its different, however the leitmotif or the main part is always there, just altered to follow the main themes of each movie from the 2012 Avengers or Endgame the leitmotif is there even though the Themes are vastly different
“Unholy territory”, hehe! That was great.
you explained in a way that I could understand thanks!
I saw the thumbnail for this video, and since I literally am learning about Wagner right now, I had to click
By the way you described it watching this a leitmotif is pretty much a drinking game but with music, kind of like every time you see something happen play these notes. (Example: the first two notes of the JAWS theme instantly warn anybody that the shark from JAWS or at the very least A shark in general is coming).
Man, your channel is great!
So... Do you mean, like at the end of Rite of Spring, when you have different motifs for different dance moves, that keep modulating so we can feel how the dancer gets more tired, and hopeless, until she accepts her fate?
friend sent me this cuz i haddent heard the term leitmotif before. thanks for the info!!
Would you ever consider talking about the use of themes and leitmotifs in the show RWBY? I think the musical reference made on that show (particularly to the trailers for each of the main four characters) are very interesting and used well.
Thank you for having a more original comment here
damn dude your channel is amazing I just came across it
Started listening to the soundtracks in Steven Universe after this. Kind of fun to listen to the singular themes and compare them to the fusion soundtracks, something I never would've thought to do if I hadn't watched your videos.
Wow, this was immensely informative. Thank you very much!
An explanation like this using for examples the Undertale themes and leitmotifs would be perfect
You've somehow managed to confuse me even more
Wwwwhhhaaaaaattttttt the fuck. It's not often that I stumble upon such quality content. I'm not even musically inclined and this video had me hooked from the start. Great stuff, this was insightful and inspiring.
people saying that undertale is an example
may i raise to you homestuck bec holy shit almost every character has some leitmotif
plus it's soundtrack has a lot of contributions by toby fox
You explain these musical terms very well! 🙂
1:57 So the Stanley Kubrick of his day?
super illustrative helpful video
I love how you mention the Ring and Legend of Zelda in one video.
so would the Leimotif video about Jojo's Bizarre Adventure all over RUclips be considered Leimotifs? yes, the music is associated with the characters, as all of the powers and characters are musical references (such as Crazy Diamond, Killer Queen, Man in The Mirror, King Crimson, etc.) But but they seem to have a different purpose then what is described in the video? so do they count as Leimotifs?
That was incredibly straightforward and helpful
If only Kircheis would hear his leitmotif...
so in the left 4 dead series, is the little musical phrase that plays when a special infected is near considered a leitmotif or a theme? it's very short so it's not a full phrase or period, and clearly means "a jockey is here"
Also learnt the difference today in Music Analysis the difference between phrases and sentences in music