Next time actually say the SPECIFIC YEARS you're talking about when you're trying to explain a timeline. Historical accuracy is important. Watching this video you would never know that the Index came out in 2019!
Are you considering an alternative like the Beyond? The small size would probably be a lot more fitting to the crazy acrobatic stunts you have in your videos xD
@@samcandles I mean aside from the bad mounting design for the wire and the wire being easily damaged its not that bad. All it takes is a 10 dollar strip of cable sleeving, a couple zip ties or heat shrink bits, and a bit of pressure to unhook the cable, and the headset is a lot more durable
It's not so much that the Index is so great as it is that _every_ VR headset release since the Index has been disappointing and has gone backwards overall relative to the Index. It's very frustrating.
I am constantly looking at that "I want to believe" poster in the back, tearing up. 😅 I really, really want the Deckard. Given your track record, I do actually believe it will come out. I just hope it's gonna be sooner rather than later...
My Index did hold up great. I bought it on day 1 I did not even change the face gasket. It is dissolving at this point but still doing it's job. Works as new. No dead pixels. No issues. Well the right speaker distorts mildly sometimes but other than that it's a great experience.
I have a similar experience with Index. The HMD itself is like the day I opened it. I finally had to RMA my left controller just a few months ago due to the thumb stick no longer working reliably, and Valve cross-shipped it to me as soon as I verified the issue in their included diagnostic tool. Amazing company that produces amazing things, IMO. I am really looking forward to Deckard releasing ASAP, at least as long as it can losslessly connect to my PC.
Mine is similar but some capacitve thumb sensors have stopped working for a long time (actually within warranty, but didn't bother replacing them) and I bought a new cable once. Other than that, retightening some screws was necessary at some point to fix speaker issues.
Blender is used by more than 3 million content creators. 3D content making has a giant potential in AR. Apple's ToS doesn't allow porting Blender to Reality OS, so that's 3 million people potentially preferring Deckard over Apple Reality Pro due to a huge "exclusive" app. Openness can be a big win.
@@brucerain2106 that's what I'm trying to figure out. Or even something like the Viverse where I'd have a virtual club where you can go hear the music. I'm a few months from digging in deep. I'm recording as much music as possible right now. I think it can be cool if done right.
100% The fact that it's 2023 and the best we have for 3D gaming is VorpX is sad. Valve really should have offered it natively forever ago, but maybe I'm just wanting too much.
@@DMan-ud6bt I've been wanting a conversion of the Trackmania games to virtual-3D-monitor for ages. Even with anaglyph glasses, the 3D effects in those games are amazing, but playing them in actual VR would a recipe for getting sick. I wish you could just play them with a virtual 3D monitor.
Sounds like an excellent route for the industry to take. PCVR won't thrive on just gaming, so if it's a true spatial computer with multiple use cases, that's a win. And the people who purchase it for non-VR reasons, will most certainly experiment with the VR features with many of them getting hooked on it. Its a great new way to grow the VR community. After listening to this video, I strongly believe that Valve is over the moon with the announcement of the VisionPro. It legitimizes what they are doing, grows the market as a whole, and costs far more than whatever they release next.
I hope you are right. I should be really excited about Apple's headset, but I can't because it's a walled garden. Open platforms in this space is what would make me get into it
That's honestly way too late. It's been too long. We need it before the end of this year. If they take that long, then I'll end up buying the Somnium VR1 or something else and being angry that they release something I've been waiting for less than a year later after taking so freaking long I couldn't wait any more.
@@DMan-ud6bt i heard of the deckard and was expecting the news to come out when quest 3 leaked and the elite and now meganex ..... and even pico5? i was looking for a new great head set with great fov and awesome resolution unfortunately for them pimax threw their crystal in the ring and ill be fair pimax has been talking about this thing for a while and the 12k coming and i have info there is yet another 3 secret headset they are working on. i understand we want smaller headsets but until they give us a Jordie visor from star trek this is as good with clarity, resolution and fov right now. so i picked one up. but now im seeing the developing of a 240 lens makes me so excited. now only if i can get me a personal teleporter please forget the flying cars.
@@SisterPain Pimax, meganex, and even pico are not viable consumer VR hardware. They are all built in a sheltered echo chamber of people that don't know anything about VR hardware and software engineering. If you want the next best HMD, you would need to get the Quest 3, or just wait longer for a more viable system that fits the Deckard profile in a few years. Your wishes are more delusional than realistic.
Honestly: Index with face and eye tracking, wireless and updated lenses and panels. Thats all i would wish for and be completely happy in the next headset.
Yep. As long as they improve the visual clarity without taking anything else away, then I'd be more than happy. They have the best solutions for audio, tracking, and controllers ever. Everyone else's is subpar and a compromise.
@@ConservativeJuggaloPodcast I'd argue that compression and encoding has gotten good enough via 6ghz to get acclimated to and not notice the latency. Wigig 60ghz for VR is the dream, but Valve and Intel apparently have killed it off. HTC currently holds the only solution. FYI, there is a Valve wifi 6ghz solution coming from Nofio, an amateur engineering company. I wouldn't consider it, since software support and synergy is crucial for something like that, and there is no way that company could ever fulfill it.
If valve embrace more than gaming on the deckard then it could be a huge shift for Valve as a company. I don't doubt they will continue to focus on gaming but we might see then expand beyond just gaming. Personally I have become gradually more excited about a head mounted computer to replace my laptop than a VR gaming device. I still want the best VR gaming possible but very keen to have my usuage of a headset to go beyond just gaming (I have tried with the quest pro but it's just not there yet).
I mean they've been a platform company more than a games company for years now. They're one of the major OSs of gaming, and now they're going to be the windows/'pc' of spacial computing.
@@inferiii Not sure I follow you. Steam OS seems solely focused on gaming right now. Nintendo would be a platform company then by that metric with a much more popular OS. I can't think of much valve have done outside gaming, what products have they released that aren't gaming focused? Steamdeck can be used more generally but it's definitely still a gaming focused device, the next headset may be more ambiguous as in it will be focused as a gaming device but using it as a spatial computer will be a very appealing usecase for many and could potentially draw more customers than gaming (which steamdeck afaik is absolutely predominantly gaming customers, rather than people buying it as a pc).
I've been using the quest pro with immersed and virtual desktop to do everything i did with my pc before. I work, watch movies and play games for 12hrs a day with the headset since the price drop. Standalone pro can't do much on it's own unfortunately. I couldn't imagine someone having the pro only as a laptop replacement unless your work is 100% online.
People can crap on Apple all they want, but like how the mouse revolutionized the way we interact/interface with our computers, Vision Pro and spatial computing is the next evolution of not only how we interface with our computers, but how we define computing and productivity. A decade from now, the Vision Pro and similar systems will become more commonplace. Two decades from now, the shift from traditional desktop/laptop systems to spatial systems will be obvious. Three decades from now, current gen computers will be viewed as relics and, like the smartphone now, spatial systems will be integrated and commonplace in society - movies, content creation, social media, gaming . . . this is the future.
If they do this - this will be incredible. To replace handheld gaming console, laptop and vr device ... just with a single VR device. With my full steam library
There’s a tragic dimension to it, the iq decline which forces companies to use open source methods because that’s the only way you can find people to dig through and understand 80 years of code writing developments.
Right, this sounds like a fairly substantial platform puzzle to do for Valve. As you said Apple has a megaton of devs working on their VisionOS or whatever, and the shared 3D engine thing is how to get things to mesh together without derping around with overlays, that does take having an entirely closed and bespoke platform though. I do dream about spatial computing in the way of properly integrated windows _in any VR game_ which are affected by depth and lights. Just that would be great, and we can worry about pass-through after that lololol. Oh, and if they have cameras on the Deckard, I do hope they will crunch the video _locally_ on the device, because for me, I was one of the people who had trouble getting the cameras to work well. Removing it from the USB data stream is probably very beneficial. That means anything on the PC that needs the pass-through would have to work with the co-processor on the device. Anyway, thanks for the Copium, I'll survive for this a while longer, huff puff!
Bradley, it's absolutely infuriating! These new VR headsets are shoving standalone down our throats, and it's driving me up the wall! I mean, come on, I've got an RTX 4090, for crying out loud! There are countless others out there with high-end PC builds specifically designed for VR. Yet, we're being strong-armed into using this subpar mobile hardware because that's what the industry is dictating. It's ludicrous! And don't even get me started on the USB 3.0 for PCVR. The compression is a nightmare! It's making our PCs work overtime, and for what? It's like we're regressing instead of progressing. Why on earth are we waiting for mobile hardware to catch up when we've got perfectly capable VR-ready PCs right here? And the Vision Pro? More expensive than my 4090 build? Are they out of their minds? I get it, it's a prototype, not meant for consumers. But the idea of shelling out more for something that's exponentially inferior to my current, cheaper hardware is just... it's maddening! It's like when State of Decay came to Xbox One. The devs were all, "Oh, the Xbox One gives us more horsepower, something we couldn't have done otherwise." And I'm sitting here, thinking, "Are you kidding me? Have you heard of a PC? We've had that level of horsepower for years!" And don't even get me started on consoles. The PS5, the so-called "next-gen console 4k machine," can't even outperform a 2017's 1080ti! It's a joke! Consoles have been holding PCs back for years because they want their games to run on these outdated machines. They refresh consoles every 5-8 years, but at this rate, mobile might overtake console. Look at the M2 chip! Still, it's leagues behind PC. And Cyberpunk? They actually released it on PS4 and Xbox One! And then people had the audacity to complain because it looked bad and was washed out. Well, what did they expect? Trying to run a game like that on consoles that are outperformed by today's smartphones, even when they're throttling, is just absurd. It's beyond frustrating. I want the focus to be on PCVR. I understand the audience might be smaller, but PCVR will always be superior to any mobile VR. It's not even a competition. Even with advancements like eye tracking, yes, mobile will improve, but SO WILL PC! So that argument is utterly pointless. It's all just so... infuriating! And another thing, Bradley! If Valve does decide to throw their hat in the ring and release their own competitor to Apple, they better include a DisplayPort cable. I mean, if we're being forced to go standalone, the least they could do is provide a decent connection option. I'm sick and tired of this USB 3.0 nonsense. It's inferior, it's frustrating, and it's completely unnecessary. If they're going to force us into this, they could at least have the decency to provide a DP cable. It's the least they could do!
I think games should be more scalable, I genuinely don't see any issue with games being designed with console as the lowest standard and working up from there. Lots of people who vastly prefer PC don't have a 4090 and need games to be optimized for lower end hardware to get decent frames. I agree with not having a displayport cable being infuriating though. In some cases I prefer Quest graphics to the ugly compression and input latency that comes with streaming games via USB/wifi. I'm not really made of money, so I am stuck with the quest 2 until something truly worth it comes out. But I hope someday there can be a headset that can properly balance being a strong standalone headset and a proper wired one with no ugly video compression.
Sadly, I enjoyed your comment more than Bradley's video. I do not want to deal with the reality of the increased Deckard weight, heat, and battery on my head! Plus there is all the additional cost for that processing, when all I really want is an updated DP tethered Index2 with eye tracking, Foveated Rendering, the latest lens tech, and current highest-res displays with local dimming. Basically, an improved Varjo Aero (better vertical FOV and local dimming) or a Pimax Crystal with all mobile crap removed, no battery, and smaller casing. Vendors want to ignore the Simulation community and jump on this new bandwagon. Then when the detour fails, they bail like HP did with the Reverb.
The other thing that comes from standalone architecture is wireless capability and battery which eliminates the tether cable. That's a major driver for going in that direction even for PCVR.
When meta went down the standalone path I was super impressed, but at the same time I already got a taste of pc vr and going from pc vr to mobile it left a sour taste in my mouth. I don’t know how to describe it, but it felt like they just switched too soon.
The biggest issue with stand alone is that practically no one has done the PC connection properly so that it's lossless. If Valve does it properly, then it'll be truly amazing. I'm hoping for them to show everyone how it's done, again.
I think it's hard to say if they switched too soon... I'd argue that standalone is only getting as far along as it is now BECAUSE it got a boost from meta making the quest and quest 2. Heck knows, even with that Qualcomm seemed happy enough to just keep sitting on the XR2 Gen 1 after the quest 2 came out until Meta personally greased the wheels to get a new chip for their newer headsets.
Yes. VR enthusiasts are behaving like prophets of the present these days. Just some shprt years ago they were salivating at the prospect of a product like the Quest, saying whoever delivered such product would conquer the market & put vr on the mainstream. Now that the product was delivered and the results were what they expected they are changing the narrative. I think vr enthusiasts are being naive when they want the vr segment to go mainstream. Whats the rush? VR wont go away now.
@@Refreshment01 Personally, I always cared far more about VR being the high-end experience we knew and know it could and can be than something that became mainstream ASAP. PCVR is and most-probably always will be the pinnacle VR experience. I pre-ordered the Rift CV1 and Touch controllers and upgraded to the Index soon after it launched. A stand alone HMD is fine and can even offer good on-the-go experiences, but IMO is pretty much worthless and certainly not worth the money without a lossless connection to the PC.
I'm psyched to see what Valve is gonna cook up with xrdesktop. Contrary to full-fledged vr-games, xrdesktop has been shown to run on something as pitiable as raspberry pi. A good APU-board in the headset would definitely make that a pleasant experience for media-consumption and stuff that isn't heavy on processing. I imagine doing camera-passthrough on xrdesktop will be a zinch too considering it's all in the OS compared to the hacky index-way that sort of streams camera and steamvr-apps back and forth between the hmd and pc. I do wonder how they're going to draw the line between headset-apps and apps requiring external SteamVR-streaming from a pc. Maybe something like Steam Deck verified thing on protondb?
It's not that people love the Index specifically. It's that _every_ VR headset release after the Index has been disappointing. The Index userbase is chomping at the bit to have something to upgrade to. But for every new VR headset, you go down the list of specifications getting excited as you read about the good stuff... and then your heart falls when you realize the new VR headset has crap or no audio, narrower FOV, etc. They're consistently better than the Index at one, maybe two things (usually visual clarity) and then it's like the manufacturer didn't bother with anything else and so the total package is actually worse than the ever aging Index. Even new VR headsets that aren't even out yet like the Bigscreen Beyond are _maybe_ finally better than the Index overall but still offer drawbacks like less FOV, limitation to 75Hz for native resolution (vs 144Hz!)... _for twice the never-reduced price of the Index!_ Or there's the Pimax Crystal which by its specs is equal or better across the board, but then you've got the downside of... well... Pimax. And again for a much higher price. 4 years later, there should be at least one VR headset on the market that trounces the Index in every category at the same or lower price point. But that product continues to not exist. And it should!
I think you can say the same for the Rift CV1 - there is no caveat-free upgrade from either HMD - which is ridiculous considering how long they have both been on the market. Other HMDs have bested CV1 and Index in clarity but fall down in other areas like audio, comfort, and tracking volume.
They need a DLSS ASIC, that would be a gamechanger as you could have an APU render at a lower resolution and use the chip to upscale to a much higher resolution without the power draw of an RTX card. Also they could have a wireless connection to a PC with much lower bandwidth so you could still play all your favourite PC titles.
i'm like 99% sure that DLSS requires training data per texture. So you can't just DLSS anything, you'd need to train it on higher resolution textures before.
This would be my ideal index 2.0 for just a generational step vs. A whole new headset. Newer tech lenses, wider fov, & more resolution is all I would like. Maybe even allow it to run easier on OpenXR without jumping through hoops. Some bonus things that would be cool: - Keep the same controllers (make them sturdier), - Have base stations hardcoded to auto shutoff after a certain amount of time of not detecting headset and allow us to modify the time -make aftermarket support for wireless more feasible. -keep the frunk and build "air channels" so we can add the usual aftermarket fans to cool down ourselves and the headaet without drying out our eyes.
If it does come to fruition that the Deckard releases as a fully capable SteamVR standalone headset, then this will be almost everything I could ever want for a headset right now. Very interested to see more whenever Valve officially raises the curtains!
Vive has been important with valve. The main chapters of my VR journey are VIVE OG, Index, and knuckles, Vive Pro 2 (for higher res and wireless). Knuckles have continued with VP2. Pumped for Deckard but nervous about how I will get it in Australia. But there is always a way.
I had the original Vive, and it was a mind blowing experience but one of the most disappointing realisations for me was that I couldn't use it as a monitor replacement. The display was simply too low resolution to make a useable experience unless text was very large, and the headset wasn't comfortable to wear for more than a few hours at a time. There also wasn't that much to do in VR back then. I ended up selling it years ago and haven't been able to justify getting back into VR since. (Also Index availability and support in australia is atrocious, I'd have to buy it 3rd party meaning no warranty, and at a significant markup.) However recent advancements in VR technology has me seriously thinking about VR again. If the Bigscreen Beyond was a bit more accessible I think I would have ordered one already despite the steep cost, but once again Valve's complete lack of support for australia would make acquiring the base stations and controllers extremely expensive and difficult, not to mention I would need to find someone with an iPhone for the face scan. If Deckard is anything like you describe I think I'm going to try very hard to get one. It finally feels like the technology is maturing enough that VR may become a viable "daily driver" option for productivity and gaming, and that is an experience I very much would like.
I agree but I'm concerned about the comfort when wearing it for hours and hours. I really want to replace my PC and monitor but even thinking about having a kinda heavy device on my head and looking at a fixed focal distance for a longer period of time makes my head and eyes hurt. Taking regular breaks will be absolutely necessary I think.
TBF, no matter what res, it's not a solution to replace a physical 2d display. I worked with high-end HMD XR solutions that have display clarity that no other HMD has come close to. No market will adopt wearing something to do productivity. It's not not viable.
@@Dionyzos Comfort really isn't the full issue, just the fact of having to wear something, or just using a different UI from standard productively is DOA. The markets that XR chase, do not exist, and will not exist for a very, very long time. Apple and Meta only recently discovered this fact, which is why they both released simulations statements saying they are dropping productively for gaming with their spacial computing R&D.
The reason people want an updated Index is because better Optix... why not. The comfort and the audio is honestly astounding particularly because it doesn't touch your head. You put a LOT of heat out through your head/eye sockets/ears and not touching your ears was just a spot of genius in the Index. It sounds like you're IN the environment and because nothing is touching your ears you believe it and if you have friends in the room, they can talk to and guide you and you can hear them too. I think personally anyone that's used an Index for a period of time knows that the next hmd that has true staying power will have Index type audio. The form factor is super comfy and perfect so far or the most perfect so far. You can adjust to your head and then there's a slight elastic give so you can whip it on and off like a ballcap. If you have a wider face you might not feel this way. I feel like I have a fairly (not super) broad face at 5'11" tall but putting on the hmd is just so freakin easy, perfect for a dev. HMD + audio you can put on with 1 hand in 3 seconds.... perfect. As far as screendoor and usability, for gaming its fine and easy to run with modern GFX hardware at high FPS. Also works great for bigscreen and watching movies or 3D movie content, youtube,etc. but for general desktop use it could be higher res. For anything entertainment related its perfect and easy to run. Can't wait for Deckard or whatever its called. Gabe and the teams at Valve definitely know what's up and are thoughtful about the things that actually matter. The only thing holding VR/AR back at this point is the software. If some co. would put some quality in to that consistently they could completely capture the market.
This would be amazing. A universal device. - replaces something like the Quest as a mobile VR device. - replaces a laptop as it is a mobile desktop. - replaces AR devices. - replaces VR on desktop as it can be connected to one via cable and or wireless. - maybe a phone too?
As someone who doesn’t play vr anymore because games aren’t good enough and its harder and harder to play the longer you don’t play. I also need to sign up for a Meta account and juggle the accounts into one account. Tbh, unless something really big happens in vr and all my friends start playing…I’ll probably use it a couple times a year. I was full in on vr(racing wheel, flight stick, gun rig, early pulley system for cord management, heavily involved in the community. I want vr to be good. Hope valve makes it happen.
The index rma is a massive meme. Used my headset for about 350h and have already gone through 3 controllers. One of them only lasted 130h before the stick touch sensor broke
@@ZoKKeRFreAK mhm, that's what i'm doing, it's currently on its way to the Netherlands. I really appreciate the support I've gotten however as this indez kit is actually pre-owned (bought it for 60% off from a guy)
In retrospect, Valve in-house manufacturing is brand-new to them, and they have been doing a fantastic job. It's only getting better. I've never even heard of SteamDeck RMAs.
stick touch sensors breaking seems common I didn't even notice it for a long time lol. I wouldn't want to wait for a new pair just to have this fixed...
I still don't think Valve should compete with Apple but rather with the Meta Quest 3. They can subsidize the deckard because of the Steam store and target the $599 price point. The Steam Deck is successful because of the great price and now we are seeing competitors like the Asus Rog Ally priced quite competitively. A $3000 'spatial computing' device won't really benefit the PCVR platform, as it will restrict the platform to the enthusiast crowd. Price is extremely important and I hope Valve focuses on bringing new users to the PCVR eco system. The more users, the better VR games we can get.
To become a relevant VR ecosystem for devs it has to be less than $500. With big high res micro-oleds it probably has to be more than $1000. So Valve is in a loss-loss situation for VR-focused ecosystem, because you need to sell 10M units to make a minimally viable platform for devs if some game redesign is needed. However for a spatial computer that boosts pancake gaming in the first place they don't need to care that much about selling enough units to build a separate market. In that case even an expensive headset that sells much fewer than 1M units is a good investment to simply enhance Steam business further among wealthy customers (instead of building a new VR-focused ecosystem for mass market).
@@kazioo2 just pancake lenses I think will help sales. People don't want to wear a brick on their face, myself included & I'm already sold on VR. I havnt upgraded yet but I'm hoping foviated rendering is good enough for OLED til micro OLED becomes cheaper...
Subsidiaries doesn't make sense for valve. Subsidisation is about cutting out the competition, but valve makes a lot of money making their store accessible to many other VR headsets; so they would be contradicting their current business model by undercutting everyone and reducing the amount of pcvr competition.
Damn, I didn't know anything about the Steam Deck when it was announced, I just happened to have the announcement pop up on my RUclips feed. I pre-ordered immediately. I've already pre-ordered a SimulaVR headset for work. I can't wait for that to come out. If Valve announces a spatial computing headset based on SteamOS and with how well the Steam Deck works (I'm completely floored with how good a device the Steam Deck is, absolutely amazing). I will not hesitate to buy whatever Valve announces. The future of computing and gaming is in VR/AR.
I love my index. All i really want is an updated version with eye tracking, face tracking, and a lower profile. I've been using the frunk to control my vive trackers. had no idea we could put eye tracking on it now, but now i need to add it.
Personally i had a really great experience with Valve RMA. I have a launch index from one of the first couple shipping waves, And its been Great and still in great condition with no issues. However recently a couple months ago my left controller started to heat up oddly and wouldn't stay powered on. assumed the battery was dying so i contacted valve just to see if they could maybe repair it for cheaper than buying a brand new one, because at this point obviously my warranty is long long expired. but they straight up offered to replace both of my controllers for free, They sent the replacements out the next day and a couple days later i had the brand new controllers and i sent back the old ones in the boxes that the new ones came in. It was such a pleasant surprise that they replaced both controllers even when the right controller was just fine and all for free. My launch index and those new controllers are still going strong but I'm very very ready for Deckard and excited to see what valve does next
I wish there was a PC only new headset with no compromises. No standalone, no (AR) colour passthrough. Just really great screens, High res, 140 FOV, wireless and DP link in the same headset.
well, 140FOV+ isn't a thing outside of terrible solutions, and won't be a thing for a very, very long time (lens technology would need massive leap in technology we are at least decades away from being possible). Wireless would mean wifi6e 6ghz, which is still not nearly as good as Wigig 60ghz. So a kit that has a $300-$400 wigig2 solution (adding a lot of weight), displays really can't exceed much due to the inherent high bandwidth requirements, and DP is a very expensive and heavy solution during a time when tethering is being abandoned by the biggest industries. It's a tall order that I don't think anyone would bite. Too many compromises must occur on the engineering side, and there are is a lot of future technology that isn't here yet that can make it all happen. You might as well wait like 5-10 years for something that crosses at least a few things off your list.
I agree just wish we had more software to go with. While I'm sure it would cause a lot of people to puke, I wish we had a portal vr game, as well as a new valve game that a killer app for the deck
The closed, console like platform of Oculus has been my biggest bugbear in VR use, only mitigated by it's capacity for PCVR. Although honestly it was the price of the Quest 2 that got me into VR, since it enabled me to afford to risk checking it out, despite not having used a VR device since their infancy in the '90s. Interestingly, spatial computing has the potential to overcome my major issue with mobile computing (I've never owned a personal mobile of any description, nor a tablet), which is the awful, limiting impact of a small touch screen interface on shaping content produced and consumed. I see the use of the existing, extensive flatscreen catalogue of "killer apps" in VR being just another minor stepping stone, but certainly an important one towards the inevitable omnipresent digital presence and interaction. Of course, much like digital convergence and the IoT, realisation is taking a lot longer than predicted by everyone from Scifi authors to analysts at Intel and other tech giants. As with home PCs, I think a more open platform, major interface improvements and more "killer apps", will be what speeds the process up. Having tested the waters I'd also now be happy to fork out for a much more capable and premium device, just not one locked into Apple's walled garden.
I think "Spatial Computer" is am ambiguous term, but when you look at what Apple will be delivering with Vision Pro, you have decades of developer SDKs to implement functionality in Vision Pro apps and a well thought paradigm for developers to port 2D apps into this 3D space, add volumetric space in front of those windows and for the device itself to give the user the experience of multiple parallel apps running in Mixed Reality... No Meta products do that or likely will in the future. The Valve Deckard will not be doing that... I get really sick of people diving tech products only by the hardware spec and not looking at what the software is delivering for user experience. The composite of the two is what makes the product.. It's also foolish to assume Valve, Meta or whoever can easily just hire software engineers to match what Apple is doing, because you have to look at what it takes to incentivize developers to embrace a new UI toolkit, how these companies can deliver ROI. Apple has incredible leverage and legions of developers. Microsoft really the only other company that could deliver something like this, they could partner with Valve, but I doubt that will happen.
I love my index. I've had one for almost 2 years now, I don't see myself replacing it until a proper replacement comes out tbh. Hell I'm considering buying a spare in case my current headset kicks the bucket.
Still love the Index after 4 years , although I wasn't happy about having to replace the malfunctioning tether cable for $160CAD even though I've been very careful with it over the years. I am definitely very ready for higher res , better image quality , inside out tracking and wireless from my next headset so someone better release something soon for me to buy. Been considering the Pico4 or even the Meta Quest 3 in desperation. But more than anything we need many more high quality, immersive games like Alyx and Lone Echo1/2.
I only want 1 change for the Valve Index, and that's the controllers. Their controllers are THE best controllers out of all that exists. With one flaw, and that's the touch palm sensor. This stupid censor, in certain games, would drop my weapon, even though I was gripping my controller. Very few games had a toggle or disable button feature for the game. This implementation they made into the controllers was a over sight. I hope it's address with the new controllers, and I can only hope more developers know of this issue.
It’s funny how when VR started to become a thing I immediately thought to the AR glasses from Heavy Rain. If you can control the environment you’re in and do mundane stuff but in a cool environment, it could be super cool. I have a now discontinued Oculus Go that I use almost every night to watch movies in a virtual movie theater (Watched half of Chinatown last night), and aside from the annoyance of taking the headset off if something demands my attention, it’s so much better than watching stuff on a TV or a phone. Apple seems to understand this potential, hopefully Valve does as well and can create a cheaper open source alternative.
It'll be great as long as there are no compromises on resolution, refresh rate, FOV, & lenses. If it lacks in these areas, it wont push things forward.
Agree Index was a generation step up from original Vive, after years of Vive use it was like a new experience for me moving to Index on launch. Your assessment that Valve needs to not just update the panels and rendering system with Deckard to matter, in particular the cameras on Index were miserable and not implemented like you said. We need Deckard to support MR/AR/Spaital experiences to really standout and move VR owners to upgrade... another topic is facial tracking that we must have, and foveated rendering if we are tacking eyes anyway.
For many people using productivity applications seeing your actual keyboard to type the correct keys is actually crucial. Hope all the XR devices tackle this one way or another.
14:37 That would pair painfully well with a MS partnership for a rotating library to compensate the device's entry cost, both lightweight indie games and VR games sound like the perfect candidate for "I'm not willing to buy it without trying first" products. Not everybody has a Steam library worthy of moving platforms, a Game Pass-like deal would be a great sweetener.
I knew valve would make a standalone VR headset the moment I saw how good SteamOS3 is. It just makes perfect sense. They've been making VR teathered hardware, now they've made a gaming handheld with it's own OS, combining the two just seems like a no-brainer.
Nailed it, exactly what my thought was when Apple announced, the killer app is spatial computing. Past the desktop and into the office. Most progressive design companies have designed their offices to function in this way for the benefit it provides to getting great work done.
I bought a deck two weeks ago from mercari because i had a $200 credit. This is one of my favorite devices ever, its amazing how polished and configurable it is. I would kill for a pro version. I literally have daydreamed of it having some sort of functionality with steamvr while using it, would be cool if that is what the deckard is leading to
The idea to move the lenses back and forth was to allow to compansate for eye distance and therefore pillow distortion caused by distancce, not for glasses.
If it happens to release as you say it will probably be a bigger thing than apple's offer, would be preordering just like my steam deck. And if you can link it to a another linux pc(more powerful) it's goodbye windows forever
It worries me that no indication has been made for when Steam OS 3 will be released as an installation media for custom PCs. If that is the future that Valve want to push, then the earlier they can start getting people on board the better. It needs to be in place before 2025 so people don't fall to Windows 11.
My hope is Valve decides to improve and optimize SteamVR for Linux, especially for the Valve Index. I'm not really into spatial computing or augmented reality, but I am into flight simulators. Windows SteamVR is faster than Linux SteamVR, but Linux ext4 file system is ~50% faster than Window's NTFS. If Valve improved SteamVR Linux support, I might be able to remove Windows from my system entirely and have a better overall experience in Linux.
In a different timeline: -Valve buys out Big Screen Beyond -They mount a couple cameras to the front for inside out tracking and pass through -They tether it to a hip mounted, upgradable processor and battery the size of the steam deck -I am happy Edit: forgot to mention eye tracking
The beyond goes backwards with audio and FOV. That's what's keeping me from it. After waiting this long to upgrade from Index, I'm not about to make compromises that serious. But that's just me. Some people apparently don't care, which blows my mind.
@@DMan-ud6bt the FOV on the Beyond has been improved but I get it. Sticking with Sony over here since I have a PS5 & no PC. Thinking about upgrading headset as well
Everything else is such a giant leap forward, that they forgive the slightly lower fov. Index is 6 degrees larger vertical fov than BSB according to infinity fov database. Horizontal fov has been upgraded. As for audio, the BSB has an integrated audio solution on the way, don't know if it's going to be better or worse, but you can always just buy better headphones than the ind X and use those.
@@DMan-ud6bt honestly, if they could polish up the AR glasses experience just a bit more, I would take a hit on FOV just for the better form factor and natural pass through (no need to project your eyeballs on a screen to the outside world for social interactions).
@@MassDefibrillator On ears hurt and get hot over time. Over ear get much hotter. Neither are suitable or remotely comparable to the quality off-ear solution by Valve. Any FOV smaller than Index is going in the wrong direction, even if it is just 6 degrees.
fellas should I wait for deckard + vive inside out tracking or just get base stations + index controllers and 3.0 trackers (I already have a quest 2 nd haritorax fbt but don't feel satisfied anymore)
Still have my index and I love it. I just want to tinker with it to add better LCD panels, eye tracking, better cameras. I want to really start doing more hardware mods to the index.
it's 2023 and we still have no native support for index or any other headest to work as simple 3d display for games. I don't even care about controller support for non vr games, it would just be nice to be able to play any game with vr headest from the box..
If Valve comes out with Deckard soon for pre order ill have no reason to consider Quest 3 or Apple Vision, at least when Apple comes out with a consumer version of the Vision
I got the Vive Pro 2 dispite your warnings and I like it, and I can handle the binocular overlap (though it will definitely be a thing I want to improve upon with the next headset). However, what I hate most is the dark experience. I do a lot of Euro Truck Sim 2 and American Truck Sim and driving in the dark is ABSOLUTELY A WORTHLESS HOPELESS HORRID affair, because I have the sense that suddenly my screen has fogged up when I wake up from my virtual truckers sleep in the middle of the virtual night. The original Vive with the OLED display was soooo much better in the dark environments. So for me it's either OLED or no buy from here on out.
As much as I love my Index; I have swapped it out for a PICO 4 as I grown tired of no matter what I'd do, I couldn't get the IPD or comfort right! I'm hoping the PICO 4's "Pancake" lenses will have a wider sweetspot compared to the Index, so even if my IPD is off by a fraction of a mm - I can use i longer then 10 minutes! 😅 Here's also hoping the upcoming Deckard will have an automatic IPD thing, so that it will be more accurate to my actual IPD then what my phone says! 😄
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nut butter pea
My mind is all about Bigscreen Beyond with Praydog's vr injector mod. Of course ill still buy good vr games too here and there..
Next time actually say the SPECIFIC YEARS you're talking about when you're trying to explain a timeline. Historical accuracy is important. Watching this video you would never know that the Index came out in 2019!
Thanks for reminding me. ❤
mate, I subscribed
I can't believe I got the index 4 years ago and it's still my daily driver, what a solid piece of hardware
Are you considering an alternative like the Beyond? The small size would probably be a lot more fitting to the crazy acrobatic stunts you have in your videos xD
I find it funny that the index is either treated as the most solid headset or treated like glass with no in-between
@@gamersgambit7517 i dont think anyone thinks the index is actually sturdy hardware, just that its versatile hardware
@@samcandles I mean aside from the bad mounting design for the wire and the wire being easily damaged its not that bad. All it takes is a 10 dollar strip of cable sleeving, a couple zip ties or heat shrink bits, and a bit of pressure to unhook the cable, and the headset is a lot more durable
It's not so much that the Index is so great as it is that _every_ VR headset release since the Index has been disappointing and has gone backwards overall relative to the Index. It's very frustrating.
I am constantly looking at that "I want to believe" poster in the back, tearing up. 😅 I really, really want the Deckard. Given your track record, I do actually believe it will come out. I just hope it's gonna be sooner rather than later...
My Index did hold up great. I bought it on day 1 I did not even change the face gasket. It is dissolving at this point but still doing it's job. Works as new. No dead pixels. No issues. Well the right speaker distorts mildly sometimes but other than that it's a great experience.
That's great to hear!
I have a similar experience with Index. The HMD itself is like the day I opened it. I finally had to RMA my left controller just a few months ago due to the thumb stick no longer working reliably, and Valve cross-shipped it to me as soon as I verified the issue in their included diagnostic tool. Amazing company that produces amazing things, IMO. I am really looking forward to Deckard releasing ASAP, at least as long as it can losslessly connect to my PC.
Dissolving from hair / face oils? I wear a beanie when playing Project Morpheus the only headset I own
I'd suggest just buying more face masks, they are cheap, and great to use when you share your HMD.
Mine is similar but some capacitve thumb sensors have stopped working for a long time (actually within warranty, but didn't bother replacing them) and I bought a new cable once. Other than that, retightening some screws was necessary at some point to fix speaker issues.
Blender is used by more than 3 million content creators. 3D content making has a giant potential in AR. Apple's ToS doesn't allow porting Blender to Reality OS, so that's 3 million people potentially preferring Deckard over Apple Reality Pro due to a huge "exclusive" app. Openness can be a big win.
That's what I want to do. Make VR content but I'm not that good with Blender. I mainly would like to make music videos in VR. Alot to learn.
fingers crossed they keep it under 1200 dollars.
Kodon is a great 3d tool for VR
@@JAHDUBProductionshow would you make a music video in vr?
@@brucerain2106 that's what I'm trying to figure out. Or even something like the Viverse where I'd have a virtual club where you can go hear the music. I'm a few months from digging in deep. I'm recording as much music as possible right now. I think it can be cool if done right.
A total monitor replacement would be a great step, especially if it can do 3d depth for flat games to make them look better (like Nvidia 3D Vision).
100% The fact that it's 2023 and the best we have for 3D gaming is VorpX is sad. Valve really should have offered it natively forever ago, but maybe I'm just wanting too much.
@@DMan-ud6bt I've been wanting a conversion of the Trackmania games to virtual-3D-monitor for ages. Even with anaglyph glasses, the 3D effects in those games are amazing, but playing them in actual VR would a recipe for getting sick. I wish you could just play them with a virtual 3D monitor.
Sounds like an excellent route for the industry to take. PCVR won't thrive on just gaming, so if it's a true spatial computer with multiple use cases, that's a win. And the people who purchase it for non-VR reasons, will most certainly experiment with the VR features with many of them getting hooked on it. Its a great new way to grow the VR community.
After listening to this video, I strongly believe that Valve is over the moon with the announcement of the VisionPro. It legitimizes what they are doing, grows the market as a whole, and costs far more than whatever they release next.
I hope you are right. I should be really excited about Apple's headset, but I can't because it's a walled garden. Open platforms in this space is what would make me get into it
deckard’s releasing summer 2024 - holiday 2024
source: Brad’s enthusiasm for the future
9.2024
That's honestly way too late. It's been too long. We need it before the end of this year.
If they take that long, then I'll end up buying the Somnium VR1 or something else and being angry that they release something I've been waiting for less than a year later after taking so freaking long I couldn't wait any more.
@@DMan-ud6bt i heard of the deckard and was expecting the news to come out when quest 3 leaked and the elite and now meganex ..... and even pico5? i was looking for a new great head set with great fov and awesome resolution unfortunately for them pimax threw their crystal in the ring and ill be fair pimax has been talking about this thing for a while and the 12k coming and i have info there is yet another 3 secret headset they are working on. i understand we want smaller headsets but until they give us a Jordie visor from star trek this is as good with clarity, resolution and fov right now. so i picked one up. but now im seeing the developing of a 240 lens makes me so excited. now only if i can get me a personal teleporter please forget the flying cars.
@@DMan-ud6bt you would need to be braindead to buy something like the somnium vr1. Get the Quest 3.
@@SisterPain Pimax, meganex, and even pico are not viable consumer VR hardware. They are all built in a sheltered echo chamber of people that don't know anything about VR hardware and software engineering.
If you want the next best HMD, you would need to get the Quest 3, or just wait longer for a more viable system that fits the Deckard profile in a few years.
Your wishes are more delusional than realistic.
Honestly: Index with face and eye tracking, wireless and updated lenses and panels. Thats all i would wish for and be completely happy in the next headset.
Yep. As long as they improve the visual clarity without taking anything else away, then I'd be more than happy. They have the best solutions for audio, tracking, and controllers ever. Everyone else's is subpar and a compromise.
You actually WANT wireless?.......
Face and eye tracking are gimmicks that are completely unnecessary outside of VRChat LARPing.
@@ConservativeJuggaloPodcast I'd argue that compression and encoding has gotten good enough via 6ghz to get acclimated to and not notice the latency. Wigig 60ghz for VR is the dream, but Valve and Intel apparently have killed it off. HTC currently holds the only solution.
FYI, there is a Valve wifi 6ghz solution coming from Nofio, an amateur engineering company. I wouldn't consider it, since software support and synergy is crucial for something like that, and there is no way that company could ever fulfill it.
oh so apple vision pro
If valve embrace more than gaming on the deckard then it could be a huge shift for Valve as a company. I don't doubt they will continue to focus on gaming but we might see then expand beyond just gaming.
Personally I have become gradually more excited about a head mounted computer to replace my laptop than a VR gaming device. I still want the best VR gaming possible but very keen to have my usuage of a headset to go beyond just gaming (I have tried with the quest pro but it's just not there yet).
I agree with everything you say here.
I mean they've been a platform company more than a games company for years now. They're one of the major OSs of gaming, and now they're going to be the windows/'pc' of spacial computing.
@@inferiii Not sure I follow you. Steam OS seems solely focused on gaming right now. Nintendo would be a platform company then by that metric with a much more popular OS.
I can't think of much valve have done outside gaming, what products have they released that aren't gaming focused? Steamdeck can be used more generally but it's definitely still a gaming focused device, the next headset may be more ambiguous as in it will be focused as a gaming device but using it as a spatial computer will be a very appealing usecase for many and could potentially draw more customers than gaming (which steamdeck afaik is absolutely predominantly gaming customers, rather than people buying it as a pc).
I've been using the quest pro with immersed and virtual desktop to do everything i did with my pc before. I work, watch movies and play games for 12hrs a day with the headset since the price drop. Standalone pro can't do much on it's own unfortunately. I couldn't imagine someone having the pro only as a laptop replacement unless your work is 100% online.
@@Dindonmasker is the battery an issue?
People can crap on Apple all they want, but like how the mouse revolutionized the way we interact/interface with our computers, Vision Pro and spatial computing is the next evolution of not only how we interface with our computers, but how we define computing and productivity. A decade from now, the Vision Pro and similar systems will become more commonplace. Two decades from now, the shift from traditional desktop/laptop systems to spatial systems will be obvious. Three decades from now, current gen computers will be viewed as relics and, like the smartphone now, spatial systems will be integrated and commonplace in society - movies, content creation, social media, gaming . . . this is the future.
a vr headset will never replace pcs and will never be more productive than a pc
If they do this - this will be incredible. To replace handheld gaming console, laptop and vr device ... just with a single VR device. With my full steam library
I honestly couldn't be happier that the industry is taking this route.
Steam is carving that path
Yes it's amazing! 🤩
@@natanvrbr2735 we'll see.
There’s a tragic dimension to it, the iq decline which forces companies to use open source methods because that’s the only way you can find people to dig through and understand 80 years of code writing developments.
I haven't watched it yet but YAY DECKARD!
Right, this sounds like a fairly substantial platform puzzle to do for Valve. As you said Apple has a megaton of devs working on their VisionOS or whatever, and the shared 3D engine thing is how to get things to mesh together without derping around with overlays, that does take having an entirely closed and bespoke platform though.
I do dream about spatial computing in the way of properly integrated windows _in any VR game_ which are affected by depth and lights. Just that would be great, and we can worry about pass-through after that lololol.
Oh, and if they have cameras on the Deckard, I do hope they will crunch the video _locally_ on the device, because for me, I was one of the people who had trouble getting the cameras to work well. Removing it from the USB data stream is probably very beneficial. That means anything on the PC that needs the pass-through would have to work with the co-processor on the device.
Anyway, thanks for the Copium, I'll survive for this a while longer, huff puff!
Bradley, it's absolutely infuriating! These new VR headsets are shoving standalone down our throats, and it's driving me up the wall! I mean, come on, I've got an RTX 4090, for crying out loud! There are countless others out there with high-end PC builds specifically designed for VR. Yet, we're being strong-armed into using this subpar mobile hardware because that's what the industry is dictating. It's ludicrous!
And don't even get me started on the USB 3.0 for PCVR. The compression is a nightmare! It's making our PCs work overtime, and for what? It's like we're regressing instead of progressing. Why on earth are we waiting for mobile hardware to catch up when we've got perfectly capable VR-ready PCs right here?
And the Vision Pro? More expensive than my 4090 build? Are they out of their minds? I get it, it's a prototype, not meant for consumers. But the idea of shelling out more for something that's exponentially inferior to my current, cheaper hardware is just... it's maddening!
It's like when State of Decay came to Xbox One. The devs were all, "Oh, the Xbox One gives us more horsepower, something we couldn't have done otherwise." And I'm sitting here, thinking, "Are you kidding me? Have you heard of a PC? We've had that level of horsepower for years!"
And don't even get me started on consoles. The PS5, the so-called "next-gen console 4k machine," can't even outperform a 2017's 1080ti! It's a joke! Consoles have been holding PCs back for years because they want their games to run on these outdated machines. They refresh consoles every 5-8 years, but at this rate, mobile might overtake console. Look at the M2 chip! Still, it's leagues behind PC.
And Cyberpunk? They actually released it on PS4 and Xbox One! And then people had the audacity to complain because it looked bad and was washed out. Well, what did they expect? Trying to run a game like that on consoles that are outperformed by today's smartphones, even when they're throttling, is just absurd.
It's beyond frustrating. I want the focus to be on PCVR. I understand the audience might be smaller, but PCVR will always be superior to any mobile VR. It's not even a competition. Even with advancements like eye tracking, yes, mobile will improve, but SO WILL PC! So that argument is utterly pointless. It's all just so... infuriating!
And another thing, Bradley! If Valve does decide to throw their hat in the ring and release their own competitor to Apple, they better include a DisplayPort cable. I mean, if we're being forced to go standalone, the least they could do is provide a decent connection option. I'm sick and tired of this USB 3.0 nonsense. It's inferior, it's frustrating, and it's completely unnecessary. If they're going to force us into this, they could at least have the decency to provide a DP cable. It's the least they could do!
I think games should be more scalable, I genuinely don't see any issue with games being designed with console as the lowest standard and working up from there. Lots of people who vastly prefer PC don't have a 4090 and need games to be optimized for lower end hardware to get decent frames.
I agree with not having a displayport cable being infuriating though. In some cases I prefer Quest graphics to the ugly compression and input latency that comes with streaming games via USB/wifi. I'm not really made of money, so I am stuck with the quest 2 until something truly worth it comes out. But I hope someday there can be a headset that can properly balance being a strong standalone headset and a proper wired one with no ugly video compression.
Sadly, I enjoyed your comment more than Bradley's video. I do not want to deal with the reality of the increased Deckard weight, heat, and battery on my head! Plus there is all the additional cost for that processing, when all I really want is an updated DP tethered Index2 with eye tracking, Foveated Rendering, the latest lens tech, and current highest-res displays with local dimming. Basically, an improved Varjo Aero (better vertical FOV and local dimming) or a Pimax Crystal with all mobile crap removed, no battery, and smaller casing. Vendors want to ignore the Simulation community and jump on this new bandwagon. Then when the detour fails, they bail like HP did with the Reverb.
The other thing that comes from standalone architecture is wireless capability and battery which eliminates the tether cable. That's a major driver for going in that direction even for PCVR.
@@SargonDragon wireless isn't really a feasible replacement for wired vr right now. Its an alternative but it is not an upgrade, its just different
When meta went down the standalone path I was super impressed, but at the same time I already got a taste of pc vr and going from pc vr to mobile it left a sour taste in my mouth. I don’t know how to describe it, but it felt like they just switched too soon.
The biggest issue with stand alone is that practically no one has done the PC connection properly so that it's lossless. If Valve does it properly, then it'll be truly amazing. I'm hoping for them to show everyone how it's done, again.
Could it be the downgrade in graphics/realism....
I think it's hard to say if they switched too soon... I'd argue that standalone is only getting as far along as it is now BECAUSE it got a boost from meta making the quest and quest 2. Heck knows, even with that Qualcomm seemed happy enough to just keep sitting on the XR2 Gen 1 after the quest 2 came out until Meta personally greased the wheels to get a new chip for their newer headsets.
Yes. VR enthusiasts are behaving like prophets of the present these days. Just some shprt years ago they were salivating at the prospect of a product like the Quest, saying whoever delivered such product would conquer the market & put vr on the mainstream. Now that the product was delivered and the results were what they expected they are changing the narrative.
I think vr enthusiasts are being naive when they want the vr segment to go mainstream. Whats the rush? VR wont go away now.
@@Refreshment01 Personally, I always cared far more about VR being the high-end experience we knew and know it could and can be than something that became mainstream ASAP. PCVR is and most-probably always will be the pinnacle VR experience. I pre-ordered the Rift CV1 and Touch controllers and upgraded to the Index soon after it launched. A stand alone HMD is fine and can even offer good on-the-go experiences, but IMO is pretty much worthless and certainly not worth the money without a lossless connection to the PC.
I'm psyched to see what Valve is gonna cook up with xrdesktop. Contrary to full-fledged vr-games, xrdesktop has been shown to run on something as pitiable as raspberry pi. A good APU-board in the headset would definitely make that a pleasant experience for media-consumption and stuff that isn't heavy on processing. I imagine doing camera-passthrough on xrdesktop will be a zinch too considering it's all in the OS compared to the hacky index-way that sort of streams camera and steamvr-apps back and forth between the hmd and pc. I do wonder how they're going to draw the line between headset-apps and apps requiring external SteamVR-streaming from a pc. Maybe something like Steam Deck verified thing on protondb?
@@Optimus514You seem to be focusing more on the “now” than you are on the future
Can't wait for the Deckard to be announced Soon™
Happy birthday Valve Index.
I'm (somewhat) patiently waiting for Deckard.
It's not that people love the Index specifically. It's that _every_ VR headset release after the Index has been disappointing. The Index userbase is chomping at the bit to have something to upgrade to. But for every new VR headset, you go down the list of specifications getting excited as you read about the good stuff... and then your heart falls when you realize the new VR headset has crap or no audio, narrower FOV, etc. They're consistently better than the Index at one, maybe two things (usually visual clarity) and then it's like the manufacturer didn't bother with anything else and so the total package is actually worse than the ever aging Index.
Even new VR headsets that aren't even out yet like the Bigscreen Beyond are _maybe_ finally better than the Index overall but still offer drawbacks like less FOV, limitation to 75Hz for native resolution (vs 144Hz!)... _for twice the never-reduced price of the Index!_
Or there's the Pimax Crystal which by its specs is equal or better across the board, but then you've got the downside of... well... Pimax. And again for a much higher price.
4 years later, there should be at least one VR headset on the market that trounces the Index in every category at the same or lower price point. But that product continues to not exist. And it should!
I think you can say the same for the Rift CV1 - there is no caveat-free upgrade from either HMD - which is ridiculous considering how long they have both been on the market.
Other HMDs have bested CV1 and Index in clarity but fall down in other areas like audio, comfort, and tracking volume.
More Deckard. Give me moreeee
I need more hopium!
MOAAR
I am saving up for my child's education. Or rtx 5090 and Deckard. Which ever is cheaper.
They need a DLSS ASIC, that would be a gamechanger as you could have an APU render at a lower resolution and use the chip to upscale to a much higher resolution without the power draw of an RTX card. Also they could have a wireless connection to a PC with much lower bandwidth so you could still play all your favourite PC titles.
i'm like 99% sure that DLSS requires training data per texture. So you can't just DLSS anything, you'd need to train it on higher resolution textures before.
This would be my ideal index 2.0 for just a generational step vs. A whole new headset.
Newer tech lenses, wider fov, & more resolution is all I would like. Maybe even allow it to run easier on OpenXR without jumping through hoops.
Some bonus things that would be cool:
- Keep the same controllers (make them sturdier),
- Have base stations hardcoded to auto shutoff after a certain amount of time of not detecting headset and allow us to modify the time
-make aftermarket support for wireless more feasible.
-keep the frunk and build "air channels" so we can add the usual aftermarket fans to cool down ourselves and the headaet without drying out our eyes.
If it does come to fruition that the Deckard releases as a fully capable SteamVR standalone headset, then this will be almost everything I could ever want for a headset right now. Very interested to see more whenever Valve officially raises the curtains!
Vive has been important with valve. The main chapters of my VR journey are VIVE OG, Index, and knuckles, Vive Pro 2 (for higher res and wireless). Knuckles have continued with VP2.
Pumped for Deckard but nervous about how I will get it in Australia. But there is always a way.
Yeah, trying to buy Valve hardware in australia sure is rough 😔
I had the original Vive, and it was a mind blowing experience but one of the most disappointing realisations for me was that I couldn't use it as a monitor replacement. The display was simply too low resolution to make a useable experience unless text was very large, and the headset wasn't comfortable to wear for more than a few hours at a time. There also wasn't that much to do in VR back then. I ended up selling it years ago and haven't been able to justify getting back into VR since. (Also Index availability and support in australia is atrocious, I'd have to buy it 3rd party meaning no warranty, and at a significant markup.)
However recent advancements in VR technology has me seriously thinking about VR again. If the Bigscreen Beyond was a bit more accessible I think I would have ordered one already despite the steep cost, but once again Valve's complete lack of support for australia would make acquiring the base stations and controllers extremely expensive and difficult, not to mention I would need to find someone with an iPhone for the face scan.
If Deckard is anything like you describe I think I'm going to try very hard to get one. It finally feels like the technology is maturing enough that VR may become a viable "daily driver" option for productivity and gaming, and that is an experience I very much would like.
I agree but I'm concerned about the comfort when wearing it for hours and hours. I really want to replace my PC and monitor but even thinking about having a kinda heavy device on my head and looking at a fixed focal distance for a longer period of time makes my head and eyes hurt. Taking regular breaks will be absolutely necessary I think.
TBF, no matter what res, it's not a solution to replace a physical 2d display. I worked with high-end HMD XR solutions that have display clarity that no other HMD has come close to. No market will adopt wearing something to do productivity. It's not not viable.
@@Dionyzos Comfort really isn't the full issue, just the fact of having to wear something, or just using a different UI from standard productively is DOA. The markets that XR chase, do not exist, and will not exist for a very, very long time. Apple and Meta only recently discovered this fact, which is why they both released simulations statements saying they are dropping productively for gaming with their spacial computing R&D.
@@evolicious apple is dropping productivity for gaming?
I'm in Australia. I bought valve knuckles via EB games. Don't know if they are still selling valve stuff through.
The reason people want an updated Index is because better Optix... why not. The comfort and the audio is honestly astounding particularly because it doesn't touch your head. You put a LOT of heat out through your head/eye sockets/ears and not touching your ears was just a spot of genius in the Index. It sounds like you're IN the environment and because nothing is touching your ears you believe it and if you have friends in the room, they can talk to and guide you and you can hear them too. I think personally anyone that's used an Index for a period of time knows that the next hmd that has true staying power will have Index type audio.
The form factor is super comfy and perfect so far or the most perfect so far. You can adjust to your head and then there's a slight elastic give so you can whip it on and off like a ballcap.
If you have a wider face you might not feel this way. I feel like I have a fairly (not super) broad face at 5'11" tall but putting on the hmd is just so freakin easy, perfect for a dev. HMD + audio you can put on with 1 hand in 3 seconds.... perfect.
As far as screendoor and usability, for gaming its fine and easy to run with modern GFX hardware at high FPS. Also works great for bigscreen and watching movies or 3D movie content, youtube,etc. but for general desktop use it could be higher res. For anything entertainment related its perfect and easy to run.
Can't wait for Deckard or whatever its called. Gabe and the teams at Valve definitely know what's up and are thoughtful about the things that actually matter.
The only thing holding VR/AR back at this point is the software. If some co. would put some quality in to that consistently they could completely capture the market.
At this point I’m expecting the valve announcement video to start with “Hi, I’m Brad.”
Very interesting vid thanks Brad. Do you still think there will be a modular element to Valve's next headset?
Not sure. I still hope so, at least.
Need custom skins. Can't do without. 😅
One of your best videos - seems absolutely plausible to me and I love it !
Wow, thank you!
This would be amazing. A universal device.
- replaces something like the Quest as a mobile VR device.
- replaces a laptop as it is a mobile desktop.
- replaces AR devices.
- replaces VR on desktop as it can be connected to one via cable and or wireless.
- maybe a phone too?
As someone who doesn’t play vr anymore because games aren’t good enough and its harder and harder to play the longer you don’t play. I also need to sign up for a Meta account and juggle the accounts into one account. Tbh, unless something really big happens in vr and all my friends start playing…I’ll probably use it a couple times a year.
I was full in on vr(racing wheel, flight stick, gun rig, early pulley system for cord management, heavily involved in the community.
I want vr to be good. Hope valve makes it happen.
I played this 5 seconds after available. I’m cutting edge- you make that happen. Thanks Brad.
I would absolutely love a VR linux desktop.
SimulaVR have been making some progress?
Four years. It's true I guess. The weeks are long and the years are short.
The index rma is a massive meme. Used my headset for about 350h and have already gone through 3 controllers. One of them only lasted 130h before the stick touch sensor broke
Keep RMAing. Make it cost them money, so they won't release something like this again.
@@ZoKKeRFreAK mhm, that's what i'm doing, it's currently on its way to the Netherlands. I really appreciate the support I've gotten however as this indez kit is actually pre-owned (bought it for 60% off from a guy)
In retrospect, Valve in-house manufacturing is brand-new to them, and they have been doing a fantastic job. It's only getting better. I've never even heard of SteamDeck RMAs.
stick touch sensors breaking seems common I didn't even notice it for a long time lol. I wouldn't want to wait for a new pair just to have this fixed...
I still don't think Valve should compete with Apple but rather with the Meta Quest 3. They can subsidize the deckard because of the Steam store and target the $599 price point. The Steam Deck is successful because of the great price and now we are seeing competitors like the Asus Rog Ally priced quite competitively. A $3000 'spatial computing' device won't really benefit the PCVR platform, as it will restrict the platform to the enthusiast crowd. Price is extremely important and I hope Valve focuses on bringing new users to the PCVR eco system. The more users, the better VR games we can get.
To become a relevant VR ecosystem for devs it has to be less than $500. With big high res micro-oleds it probably has to be more than $1000. So Valve is in a loss-loss situation for VR-focused ecosystem, because you need to sell 10M units to make a minimally viable platform for devs if some game redesign is needed. However for a spatial computer that boosts pancake gaming in the first place they don't need to care that much about selling enough units to build a separate market. In that case even an expensive headset that sells much fewer than 1M units is a good investment to simply enhance Steam business further among wealthy customers (instead of building a new VR-focused ecosystem for mass market).
The only companies competing with Oculus are Sony, DPVR & Pico that I'm aware of. Everything else is $1k +. Sticking with Sony
@@kazioo2 just pancake lenses I think will help sales. People don't want to wear a brick on their face, myself included & I'm already sold on VR. I havnt upgraded yet but I'm hoping foviated rendering is good enough for OLED til micro OLED becomes cheaper...
Valve only makes big leaps. I'd expect $1,000 again.
Subsidiaries doesn't make sense for valve. Subsidisation is about cutting out the competition, but valve makes a lot of money making their store accessible to many other VR headsets; so they would be contradicting their current business model by undercutting everyone and reducing the amount of pcvr competition.
I like your videos, good work
Glad you like them!
Happy 4 year!
A new refreshing look at the deckard, cant wait untill its really there!
Damn, I didn't know anything about the Steam Deck when it was announced, I just happened to have the announcement pop up on my RUclips feed. I pre-ordered immediately. I've already pre-ordered a SimulaVR headset for work. I can't wait for that to come out. If Valve announces a spatial computing headset based on SteamOS and with how well the Steam Deck works (I'm completely floored with how good a device the Steam Deck is, absolutely amazing). I will not hesitate to buy whatever Valve announces. The future of computing and gaming is in VR/AR.
Hopefully the deckard has better build quality Im sure they learned a lot from building the index
I love my index. All i really want is an updated version with eye tracking, face tracking, and a lower profile.
I've been using the frunk to control my vive trackers. had no idea we could put eye tracking on it now, but now i need to add it.
Great video. Thanks Brad!
Personally i had a really great experience with Valve RMA. I have a launch index from one of the first couple shipping waves, And its been Great and still in great condition with no issues. However recently a couple months ago my left controller started to heat up oddly and wouldn't stay powered on. assumed the battery was dying so i contacted valve just to see if they could maybe repair it for cheaper than buying a brand new one, because at this point obviously my warranty is long long expired. but they straight up offered to replace both of my controllers for free, They sent the replacements out the next day and a couple days later i had the brand new controllers and i sent back the old ones in the boxes that the new ones came in. It was such a pleasant surprise that they replaced both controllers even when the right controller was just fine and all for free. My launch index and those new controllers are still going strong but I'm very very ready for Deckard and excited to see what valve does next
I wish there was a PC only new headset with no compromises. No standalone, no (AR) colour passthrough. Just really great screens, High res, 140 FOV, wireless and DP link in the same headset.
well, 140FOV+ isn't a thing outside of terrible solutions, and won't be a thing for a very, very long time (lens technology would need massive leap in technology we are at least decades away from being possible). Wireless would mean wifi6e 6ghz, which is still not nearly as good as Wigig 60ghz. So a kit that has a $300-$400 wigig2 solution (adding a lot of weight), displays really can't exceed much due to the inherent high bandwidth requirements, and DP is a very expensive and heavy solution during a time when tethering is being abandoned by the biggest industries. It's a tall order that I don't think anyone would bite. Too many compromises must occur on the engineering side, and there are is a lot of future technology that isn't here yet that can make it all happen.
You might as well wait like 5-10 years for something that crosses at least a few things off your list.
Index and Steamdeck have re'vive'd my faith in valve's hardware directions and I'm ready for deckard. Hopefully it delivers.
I agree just wish we had more software to go with. While I'm sure it would cause a lot of people to puke, I wish we had a portal vr game, as well as a new valve game that a killer app for the deck
Hopefully Valve releases something soon, can't afford to keep replacing Index cables xmx
The closed, console like platform of Oculus has been my biggest bugbear in VR use, only mitigated by it's capacity for PCVR. Although honestly it was the price of the Quest 2 that got me into VR, since it enabled me to afford to risk checking it out, despite not having used a VR device since their infancy in the '90s. Interestingly, spatial computing has the potential to overcome my major issue with mobile computing (I've never owned a personal mobile of any description, nor a tablet), which is the awful, limiting impact of a small touch screen interface on shaping content produced and consumed.
I see the use of the existing, extensive flatscreen catalogue of "killer apps" in VR being just another minor stepping stone, but certainly an important one towards the inevitable omnipresent digital presence and interaction.
Of course, much like digital convergence and the IoT, realisation is taking a lot longer than predicted by everyone from Scifi authors to analysts at Intel and other tech giants.
As with home PCs, I think a more open platform, major interface improvements and more "killer apps", will be what speeds the process up.
Having tested the waters I'd also now be happy to fork out for a much more capable and premium device, just not one locked into Apple's walled garden.
This is going to be big!
I think "Spatial Computer" is am ambiguous term, but when you look at what Apple will be delivering with Vision Pro, you have decades of developer SDKs to implement functionality in Vision Pro apps and a well thought paradigm for developers to port 2D apps into this 3D space, add volumetric space in front of those windows and for the device itself to give the user the experience of multiple parallel apps running in Mixed Reality... No Meta products do that or likely will in the future. The Valve Deckard will not be doing that... I get really sick of people diving tech products only by the hardware spec and not looking at what the software is delivering for user experience. The composite of the two is what makes the product.. It's also foolish to assume Valve, Meta or whoever can easily just hire software engineers to match what Apple is doing, because you have to look at what it takes to incentivize developers to embrace a new UI toolkit, how these companies can deliver ROI. Apple has incredible leverage and legions of developers. Microsoft really the only other company that could deliver something like this, they could partner with Valve, but I doubt that will happen.
I love my index. I've had one for almost 2 years now, I don't see myself replacing it until a proper replacement comes out tbh.
Hell I'm considering buying a spare in case my current headset kicks the bucket.
Still love the Index after 4 years , although I wasn't happy about having to replace the malfunctioning tether cable for $160CAD even though I've been very careful with it over the years. I am definitely very ready for higher res , better image quality , inside out tracking and wireless from my next headset so someone better release something soon for me to buy. Been considering the Pico4 or even the Meta Quest 3 in desperation. But more than anything we need many more high quality, immersive games like Alyx and Lone Echo1/2.
had the same thought process... in the end im just gonna wait to see what valve is cooking
I only want 1 change for the Valve Index, and that's the controllers. Their controllers are THE best controllers out of all that exists. With one flaw, and that's the touch palm sensor.
This stupid censor, in certain games, would drop my weapon, even though I was gripping my controller. Very few games had a toggle or disable button feature for the game. This implementation they made into the controllers was a over sight. I hope it's address with the new controllers, and I can only hope more developers know of this issue.
Congrats on your new HMD (Vario)
Omggg Deckard news! This is a really nice way to wake up. ❤
YES!! Great video Brad. Excited for Valve’s Deckard. Been wanting something like this.
It’s funny how when VR started to become a thing I immediately thought to the AR glasses from Heavy Rain. If you can control the environment you’re in and do mundane stuff but in a cool environment, it could be super cool. I have a now discontinued Oculus Go that I use almost every night to watch movies in a virtual movie theater (Watched half of Chinatown last night), and aside from the annoyance of taking the headset off if something demands my attention, it’s so much better than watching stuff on a TV or a phone. Apple seems to understand this potential, hopefully Valve does as well and can create a cheaper open source alternative.
It'll be great as long as there are no compromises on resolution, refresh rate, FOV, & lenses.
If it lacks in these areas, it wont push things forward.
Agree Index was a generation step up from original Vive, after years of Vive use it was like a new experience for me moving to Index on launch. Your assessment that Valve needs to not just update the panels and rendering system with Deckard to matter, in particular the cameras on Index were miserable and not implemented like you said. We need Deckard to support MR/AR/Spaital experiences to really standout and move VR owners to upgrade... another topic is facial tracking that we must have, and foveated rendering if we are tacking eyes anyway.
YES! PLEASE VALVE DO IT!
For many people using productivity applications seeing your actual keyboard to type the correct keys is actually crucial. Hope all the XR devices tackle this one way or another.
a much deserved monado shout out ^-^
Yes, another Deckard video!
Lol never imagined that my DEV Frunk 1.0 appears in a Bradley Video xD
I can't wait to get me a Steam HoloDeck
Happy birthday Valve Index!🎉
I didnt realize I bought my index on its 4 year aniversary
still rocking the index, still the best consumer headset available
Thanks Brad :)
I wonder how much Gaben giggles everytime he sees a Bredley video.
This is getting me so freaking hyped right now
Shame it will still take so long though. I want this right away!
14:37 That would pair painfully well with a MS partnership for a rotating library to compensate the device's entry cost, both lightweight indie games and VR games sound like the perfect candidate for "I'm not willing to buy it without trying first" products. Not everybody has a Steam library worthy of moving platforms, a Game Pass-like deal would be a great sweetener.
I knew valve would make a standalone VR headset the moment I saw how good SteamOS3 is. It just makes perfect sense. They've been making VR teathered hardware, now they've made a gaming handheld with it's own OS, combining the two just seems like a no-brainer.
Nailed it, exactly what my thought was when Apple announced, the killer app is spatial computing. Past the desktop and into the office. Most progressive design companies have designed their offices to function in this way for the benefit it provides to getting great work done.
I bought a deck two weeks ago from mercari because i had a $200 credit. This is one of my favorite devices ever, its amazing how polished and configurable it is. I would kill for a pro version. I literally have daydreamed of it having some sort of functionality with steamvr while using it, would be cool if that is what the deckard is leading to
The idea to move the lenses back and forth was to allow to compansate for eye distance and therefore pillow distortion caused by distancce, not for glasses.
If it happens to release as you say it will probably be a bigger thing than apple's offer, would be preordering just like my steam deck. And if you can link it to a another linux pc(more powerful) it's goodbye windows forever
It worries me that no indication has been made for when Steam OS 3 will be released as an installation media for custom PCs. If that is the future that Valve want to push, then the earlier they can start getting people on board the better. It needs to be in place before 2025 so people don't fall to Windows 11.
Liking, commenting, and _oh my god, I wasn't subscribed?!_ NOW I'm subscribed!
I honestly want more games like demo. Just normal games in vr.
My hope is Valve decides to improve and optimize SteamVR for Linux, especially for the Valve Index. I'm not really into spatial computing or augmented reality, but I am into flight simulators. Windows SteamVR is faster than Linux SteamVR, but Linux ext4 file system is ~50% faster than Window's NTFS. If Valve improved SteamVR Linux support, I might be able to remove Windows from my system entirely and have a better overall experience in Linux.
I appreciate your Valve content, ty.
Everyone talks about this Meta vs Apple fistfight.
Meanwhile Valve just sitting in a corner, sharpening it's knife.
I've been using the same index controllers I first bought over 2 years ago. I feel like i won the lottery lol.
Thanks Brad. Always love the passion you being to the VR community.
kudos to collabora
Thanks for sharing your research. I hope Valve show their hand officially soon.
In a different timeline:
-Valve buys out Big Screen Beyond
-They mount a couple cameras to the front for inside out tracking and pass through
-They tether it to a hip mounted, upgradable processor and battery the size of the steam deck
-I am happy
Edit: forgot to mention eye tracking
The beyond goes backwards with audio and FOV. That's what's keeping me from it. After waiting this long to upgrade from Index, I'm not about to make compromises that serious. But that's just me. Some people apparently don't care, which blows my mind.
@@DMan-ud6bt the FOV on the Beyond has been improved but I get it. Sticking with Sony over here since I have a PS5 & no PC. Thinking about upgrading headset as well
Everything else is such a giant leap forward, that they forgive the slightly lower fov. Index is 6 degrees larger vertical fov than BSB according to infinity fov database. Horizontal fov has been upgraded. As for audio, the BSB has an integrated audio solution on the way, don't know if it's going to be better or worse, but you can always just buy better headphones than the ind X and use those.
@@DMan-ud6bt honestly, if they could polish up the AR glasses experience just a bit more, I would take a hit on FOV just for the better form factor and natural pass through (no need to project your eyeballs on a screen to the outside world for social interactions).
@@MassDefibrillator On ears hurt and get hot over time. Over ear get much hotter. Neither are suitable or remotely comparable to the quality off-ear solution by Valve. Any FOV smaller than Index is going in the wrong direction, even if it is just 6 degrees.
fellas should I wait for deckard + vive inside out tracking or just get base stations + index controllers and 3.0 trackers (I already have a quest 2 nd haritorax fbt but don't feel satisfied anymore)
Still have my index and I love it. I just want to tinker with it to add better LCD panels, eye tracking, better cameras. I want to really start doing more hardware mods to the index.
You can put a leap motion on the frunk of the index. But that was limited too.
it's 2023 and we still have no native support for index or any other headest to work as simple 3d display for games. I don't even care about controller support for non vr games, it would just be nice to be able to play any game with vr headest from the box..
I love the poster 😂
Great to hear that Valve is going in this direction, but personally the thing I want the most from these headsets is for them to be lightweight
If Valve comes out with Deckard soon for pre order ill have no reason to consider Quest 3 or Apple Vision, at least when Apple comes out with a consumer version of the Vision
I got the Vive Pro 2 dispite your warnings and I like it, and I can handle the binocular overlap (though it will definitely be a thing I want to improve upon with the next headset). However, what I hate most is the dark experience. I do a lot of Euro Truck Sim 2 and American Truck Sim and driving in the dark is ABSOLUTELY A WORTHLESS HOPELESS HORRID affair, because I have the sense that suddenly my screen has fogged up when I wake up from my virtual truckers sleep in the middle of the virtual night.
The original Vive with the OLED display was soooo much better in the dark environments. So for me it's either OLED or no buy from here on out.
As much as I love my Index; I have swapped it out for a PICO 4 as I grown tired of no matter what I'd do, I couldn't get the IPD or comfort right!
I'm hoping the PICO 4's "Pancake" lenses will have a wider sweetspot compared to the Index, so even if my IPD is off by a fraction of a mm - I can use i longer then 10 minutes! 😅
Here's also hoping the upcoming Deckard will have an automatic IPD thing, so that it will be more accurate to my actual IPD then what my phone says! 😄
i was playing it on 1.75 and didn’t even realise… wth how slow is normal
hahah, your videos have really hooked me waiting for the Deckard!