Oddity Archive: Episode 164 - DBX Noise Reduction Revisited
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- New year, old hindrances…
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Hey Ben that Joe Egan song you played reminded me of the opening to big me by foo fighters so much
I'm not even an audiophile, I'm just glad you uploaded a new full episode.
One day, a Techmoan-Oddity Archive crossover episode! (and not the one with the phone call)
Would like to see that.
They already did a cross-over?
Techmoan demonstrated, how dbx encoded records sound. Possibly few artefacts, but noise free as known from CD, but never compatible to playback without dbx.
dbx is a background noise reduction product only. It is not designed to alter (improve) anything but the dynamic range of recordings and to reduce the background noise of the delivery medium (LP, cassette, reel to reel, etc.) . It achieves that by compressing specific bands of frequencies (encoding) upon recording and then expanding them upon playback (decoding) by the same amount. it uses a reference volume level point(s) above which it contracts (or reduces) volume when recording and below which it expands (or increases) volume when recording. It does this differently for different bands of frequencies. If you are listening for or hearing other changes, that means that there is an error with the compression/expansion process.
Errors can be introduced in a number of ways:
1) By using a different reference level for playback than was used for recording. This results in incorrect decoding. For example, if the reference playback level is set incorrectly, what should be expanded may not be. This can significantly alter not only the perceived volume, but also the dynamic range and tonality of the recording. Pumping and breathing is a common issue with dbx recordings which are improperly decoded.
2) inconsistent tape head alignment between the recording deck and the playback deck. As in #1 above, this unintentional alteration of the original signal results in incorrect decoding as the dbx decoder "reads" something different than was originally encoded on the tape.
3) Using a dbx pro product to decode a dbx consumer recording. Due to the variation in accuracy and variability of consumer recording/playback equipment, dbx created two different product lines: one for consumers and another for professional recording studios. The theory behind that was that consumers' equipment would not necessarily be aligned or biased properly so the dbx consumer product was designed to work on different frequency bands (and/or possibly fewer bands) and to be more forgiving of errors introduced by misaligned playback heads or other tape recording anomalies. On the other hand, dbx pro equipment was designed for use in recording studios where recording engineers could use test equipment to make sure the recorders were aligned and biased accurately and that azimuth and speed issues were eliminated.
The failure of dbx as a consumer product was largely due to the fact that it's extreme audiophile benefits (it was a much better/more effective noise reduction product than Dolby B, which it was designed to compete with) were often negated by playback variation issues, like those mentioned above. That, and the fact that Dolby had a long jump on dbx in terms of name recognition and that Dolby later introduced Dolby C as a consumer product, made dbx's benefits seem pointless in the eyes of all but audiophile consumers.
Excellent dissertation on dbx and it's advantages and disadvantages! Spot on for the facts. One question though, do you believe a parametric equalizer might have negated the inherent problems with dbx? I toyed with the notion with a standard equalizer and there was just not enough range to "brighten" the content.
WOW , DBX sounds so delicious , amazing , loved the comparison between LPs , great job
Ben! When did you get the ON TV box? Props to you for finding one of those damn things!
I know what you should do an episode on. Have you ever heard of "China girls"? They're the brief second-long images of women that appeared in old SMPTE headers and footers. If I remember correctly, their purpose was to help lab technicians calibrate colors. And as such, the women in the images were always holding a color card. The photo equivalent was a "Shirley card". Heck, you could make it your Valentine's Day episode as a joke.
China Dolls. Yes, back in the 70s TV stations would even use them so the home viewers could adjust the color on their sets. It was all done manually. I remember that the colors would run from Magenta to Green.
In school we would see films in class, and if you were sharp, and paying attention, you would catch them, 3, 2, 1, girl!
They're a perfect Archivism.
Personally, I really like the sound of dbx. I wish it would have caught on, it would have been easier for me to find the gear today.
Vangelis himself insisted on using DBX for his recordings. That says something about DBX.
For a good while, this used to be my favourite RUclips series, but for whatever reason, none of your videos have shown up for me in a little over a year (maybe even two!). Honestly, I think your content got me a lot more into working with cassettes and other analog formats, plus submersing myself into broadcasting history, stuff like that. After watching this, I wanna kick myself in the ass for ever letting your channel fall out of my regular viewing habits.
Nothing beats the sound of LP recordings on 1985 KMC cassettes played with the 10 watt indash Roadmaster mono car stereo. So rad dude!
Realistically, this is closer to what most people were using. None of my friends knew the ins and outs of all this dbx/type1-4 mess.
@@big_b_radical3985 I never heard of it until Techmoan did a video on it. Only had basic boom boxes or Circuit City sound systems since the 80's.Today I prefer the yard sale or thrift store higher end sound systems for a good price. DBX is overkill but interesting.
I don't think I ever did find a cassette deck that ran at the correct speed.
On that Vivaldi cassette you could really hear the compansion artifacts. Dbx always worked better on media needed it the least such as open reel or digital.
Vangelis use DBX on almost all of his recordings at Nemo Studios.
Sexual oddities! That Joe Egan album art screams aesthetics.
Good job you did. If you ever get your hands on High-Com II unit and do an episode with cassettes home rec/play it would be hallelujah for us!
I'd love to cover it (or Nakamichi stuff in general). Last High-Com anything I saw was, I think, about $3,000.
Yeah, they are pricey bitches these days...
Welcome to the rabbit hole.
Ok. What I learned is that Teac 3300 makes all sources unrecognizable. And I'd prefer to make a backup of a vinyl disc on Type II cassette rather than on 1/4 with that Teac. Philips, Akai (especially), Pioneer, Technics .. all change a source. May be Studer/Revox and Sony are the most honest R2R machines.
Holy S--- I thought rats were attacking me after the credits
Am I the only one to find the standard sound richer and more good than the other encoding?
DBX seems so flat, no variation in sounds, no distance to the music with a overcompression.
What this machine seems to understand as "noise" is the silence and the range between light and bass.
Steely Dan's album "Katy Lied" was mixed with DBX, and they hated the way it sounded when the album was finished. They even took the tapes to DBX headquarters, and even *they* couldn't get the tapes to sound right.
19:36 Yeah no lie that is one of the finest most ethereal haunting songs I've ever heard, and to think it was recorded on a portastudio by Tascam ! what a great sound quality ,what fantastic banjo playing. I will be adding that burial track to my permanent playlist. For whatever reason , i found the attack and top end sounded way worse on the reel vs cassette.
That Buzzy Linhart song is pretty cool, I had never heard of him. Yeah, DBX is way too much trouble for too little enhancement it seems (when there is any).
When did music stop being fun? Simple, when the 80's and early 90's ended
I hear a tighter low end on the audiophile LP. A bit less range on the standard LP. The DBX is a bit thin.
i hear kenny loggins and jim messina singing about beaches and stuff
also the half-speed LP sounded a tad better
I prefer the "half speed" of the Loggins & Messina LP.
18:47 - I like the dbx recording on Chrome cassette.
I had that same Reel to reel deck. I found that most types of Maxell tape sounded best. Now my main deck is a pioneer rt 909. The problem with making recordings with DBX was that breathing effect. It drove me nuts. So if I wanted to make audiophile recordings I used my other deck with 15 ips speed. At 15ips there's not much need for noise reduction when you use a good quality tape, but you use so much of it. I really enjoy your videos. Thank you and have a good day.
I have a Technics RS-B965 3 head deck with dbx.No pumping an it sounds amazing.
Awesome episode as always! I think music stopped being fun when they began recording using pieced together music resulting in recordings that are too perfect. It’s more processed than a Vienna sausage. You go on Spotify (which I love listening to by the way), you pick a song and you have your music ready to go in your car. I loved recording whatever format I didn’t have in my car and experimented. Some recordings came out great! Some not so much.
Never change, Benny boy. Never change.
I think this misses the point, really. Using compressed music sources (yeah, that classical sounds as if it was compressed by the original recording engineers), dbx isn't going to do much. Where dbx shines is recording live music. I used to record bands (many friends, many bands) and concerts (classical, concert bands, etc) on a state-of-the-art open reel, 15 IPS 1/2 track, using dbx II NR. The results were astounding. Until CDs and digital recording came in, this was the best sound obtainable anywhere. Some of the recordings I made were actually broadcast on commercial radio stations; the engineers at the stations were very complimentary of the sound. One even bought his own dbx unit and began using it for remotes. I also would point out that the input and output level trim controls need to be set in concert with each other. A really hot input needs to be dialed back a bit so as not to clip; a soft input can be turned up both with the input and the output. And the expansion doesn't affect the dbx noise reduction at all. If you use the expansion, the transition level should be set so that a roughly equal number of red and amber lights flash alternately. I like that you're doing these videos. Don't take my comments as criticism, please! I sense an audiophile like me at the other end. Great!
The only way I was able to record Telarc's Time Warp on a cassette was to use dbx.
If I remembered correctly, Techmoan mentioned that DBX disc is the best format in the world.
I was fully invested in DBX back in the day. How deep? A Technics cassette deck that had the encoder and decoder for making tapes or decoding the DbX albums. A Kenwood car stereo which included the decoder for the tapes I made and a portable Walkman (not Sony. I think it was Aiwa) which also had the decoder. I used it extensively to copy CD's onto tape when they came out as there was nothing else out that could capture the dynamic range. #honestMessiah
Have you done an OA on converter devices? I've seen record-to-CD devices, and last night I saw a VHS-to-DVD converter that I seriously considered getting, but we don't have a VCR. I wonder how well they work.
aww, I wanted to hear Canon in D, everyone's favourite pop song
WTF!... Is that an on "ON TV" cable box? And what is the other box "SELECT TV?". Wow! I haven't seen any of those in like forever. Ben I hope you make an episode on those two.
The top box is a Manhattan Cable box (circa late '70's). I did an episode very early on about non-cable pay TV (episode 11). I also did a (partial) Ben's Junk installment on the Manhattan box (Episode 125.5).
I have a dbx unit and it has that pumping and breathing effect. I stopped using it. I use dolby Instead.
Loggins\Messina standard LP sounds best imo
Max Headroom re-re-(fwd)-visited.
dbx LP were around in 74-75? I thought they didn't hit until late 70's.
The first pop/rock titles didn't drop until '78/'79. There were some classical and jazz titles kicking around as early as '74/'75.
That Joe Egan song reminded me of foo fighters big me. I kept wanting to sing the opening verse to big me over Joe
What's the Hippyish sounding intro music from?
It's my theme song. ruclips.net/video/uSSct3qn9Gc/видео.html
Really enjoyed this episode. I too have found companding schemes to be let-downs when you hear the artifacts of volume or gain manipulations on the sounds that don't fit the targeting criteria of the system... it just sounds real messed up!! There's other things too like failing capacitors and other components as well as drifting values. Maybe just maybe there is a sensible way to do it that works beyond theory but i haven't heard it. I have not heard dolby A yet. I hate dolby C. I like how you say that one has to spend some time to really get to know if the format sounds lousy or good to you. I still on occasion use U-maticSP 900 series decks which use linear audio tracks on it's weird chrome tape with it's own variant of high - bias dolby C. At first they sounded fantastic, and now I never use dolby though they still work just as well as they did when I got them (with dolby off you still get high bias chrome with wider, faster tracks then audio cassette).
For what it's worth, as best I could test (without COMPLETELY dismantling the innards of the machine), my 228 is within spec.
YOUR VIDEOS MAKE ME HAPPY 😃 EVEN WHEN I WAS SICK 😷 YOU MADE ME FEEL BETTER WHEN I WAS WATCHING YOUR VIDEOS WHEN SICK 😷 THANKS 🙏 FOR THE VIDEOS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MY FRIEND IF I CAN CALL YOU MY FRIEND
Did you get it on TV descrambler box?
Ben, you should do a show on QSound en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
I'd LOVE to, but this episode was enough of a copyright nightmare.
QSound? That sounds familiar..... Isn't it the same QSound that Capcom used for various arcade games in the 1990s?
Dolby S forget dbx
2019, still using potato camera. Not even true HD, either recorded at low resolution and upscaled to 1080 by software before upload to youtibe, or camera is using a low quality image sensor and upscaling to 1080 in hardware.
take this $0.500 and use it toward a new camera.
Still better than Jennicam!
@@LycanWitch . what is your point?
Wow. that record player at 4:20 is very over-engineered!
FOUR copies of the same yacht rock album...
Funny story behind that. I first got the CD ($1 thrift store find), then the audiophile LP a few months later (I tend to always pick up "audiophile" copies of albums when I find them at the thrift store, whether I'm a fan or not--just to see how they turned out). Then, I ordered the DBX LP when I was preparing to do the original DBX episode (because it wasn't TOO expensive and I was already familiar with it). THEN, early in the making of the old DBX episode, I found the standard LP in another thrift store bin, so I picked it up so I could do a truly full comparison. And, no, "Full Sail" isn't that great an album--and this is coming from that lunatic that actually likes yacht rock.
OddityArchive Speaking of yacht rock, Steely Dan tried using DBX in the studio, but hated the final product. They had to redo all the tracks!
They had to remix their "Katy Lied" album because of it. It's touched on in the original DBX episode.
OddityArchive I forgot I saw it on that episode! I’m a yacht rock fan, too.
14:18 - It's just like being on the phone to the DWP! (Some Brits may understand this)
When did music stop being fun? My guess is sometime in 1979, with possible specific dates of July 12 and December 3.
September 10, 1991
@@BlaBla-pf8mf i take it that you weren't too keen on nirvana
Nirvana were the only grunge band that I somewhat liked but I wouldn't call them fun and they set the tone for 2 decades of overly emotional, depressing rock (including pop punk, nu metal, metalcore, emo etc)
You sound like a stubborn KISS fan.
6 mins in and I'm already bored shirtless.
You don't deserve any real audio gear if you don't look after it