I'm 64 y/o. I've been an audiophile since the '70s. I don't want to think of the money I've spent over the years chasing hi-fi sound (mostly tube stuff). Now with a super inexpensive and efficient Crown XLS 1502/ Emotiva PT-100/ Polk RTi /SVS 2.1 system (in a treated room), I get FANTASTIC sound reproduction. Are my ears as good as when younger? No. Is the sound still fantastic? Yes! This is truly the golden age of hi-fi. I would have done backflips to get this level of sound quality, at these prices, years ago. I can't get over how good solid-state has gotten in the last twenty years.
Andrew you hit it right on the head at the end. I am 80 years old and love my vinyl on my old technics table. No use to upgrade as my hearing aids can't tell the difference. I am happy with what I have and as you say I only have to please myself. LOL
45 years ago, or thereabouts, I bought my first real hifi system. Quad 33/303, Michelle Focus 1 with SME3009 and a pair of Kef Concerto's. Over the next 25 years various components were changed and "upgraded". Not really sure if they were truly upgraded or I just bought into the latest blurb at the time. Now I am 66 years old, living abroad where good hifi is hard to come by, small room sizes and one ear that only works at about 10% efficiency have made me seriously change my listening habits. I now have a custom built laptop computer with a good DAC and a pair of Audioengine 2+ speakers. A big change for me, but what I have discovered is that I really enjoy the sound of this meager set-up. It certainly is not the best in terms of hifi systems but it is enjoyable enough that I listen every day and I am listening to Bach, Diana Krall, John Coltrane, The Beatles, Creedance Clearwater, Fleetwood Mac, Simon & Garfunkel, Emmylou Harris, Willie Nelson and a whole lot more. What I discovered was something I wish I had learned many years ago was this, ignore the cost, ignore other peoples opinions, ignore fashion, just find something YOU enjoy and enjoy it.
Wow, this is by far the best "audiophile" content I've yet seen on RUclips. So refreshing to see someone with a reasonable and rational perspective on this stuff!
Whilst upgrading a DAC gives more of an improvement I've heard transports compared to different cd players/cheaper transports and there is an improvement. However most failed to beat Spotify by much and tidal masters completely outclassed anything CD related. The CD player is gathering dust.
@@NominalTopic I have to agree on that one. Using a receiver instead of a dedicated stereo amp for music is a big mistake. Even my 30 year old Sony amp outclassed any receiver I've tried. The difference between using a 400 pound pioneer AV receiver and a 400 pound musical fidelity 15 year old amp is night and day and there is less difference between that and the 30 year old Sony amp than the receiver and the Sony! Musicality is not good on AV. Lose out almost everywhere especially detail. Bass is over boosted too in order to sound good with films.
@@spinachhandsjklolsmh9053 small brain = hears differences in transports. xD xD xD Also in wires. You spend your money on placebo effects, audiophile manufacturers globally love you.
The system I had built between 1974-1980 would cost me about $12,000 today. I didn’t have all of the responsibility I have today, which means I can’t afford to spend that on a system. Today I have about $2000 in my system and it gives me pretty good sound. I listen to music not the equipment.
I'm glad you addressed the last point. I'm 42 years old. I've played music in bands, recorded and mixed my own music, and listened to music daily for over 25 years. I recently realized I can't hear much over 13.5 kHz. Some of it is probably chronic sinus issues. But a lot of it is just hearing loss. For that reason, I like fairly bright speakers. I also don't need a ton of low end because it just masks the high end for me. Realizing this has helped informed my purchases. If someone describes a speaker as "warm" or "dark," chances are that I won't love it. All that said, I'd like to think I'm not enjoying music any less.
I really like that Andrew didn't shy away from just offering price ranges/points. Thank you! I think this is one of my favorite HiFi discussions and one of my favorite HiFi videos of the last year.
The art world and it's dealers are one of the worst about not publishing prices. Most of the time it's a kind of snobby "Price On Request" thing. There are some jewelry and stone dealers who will just post the price for a one million dollar diamond with no baloney attached while many "art" dealers won't post the price on a $1000 painting, print or drawing. Really annoying, condescending, self indulgent and pretentious. What are they afraid of?
Your numbers, or level of the beginning of diminished return are exactly, and I mean exactly the numbers that I've experienced. Which is why with my budget I can't see spending over $500 on used, $700 new on speakers, around $300 on a DAC, and i use a Goodwill CD player (which was a top of the line Yamaha in 2000) for a transport. I use vintage power amps so I get thousands of dollars worth of quality for $350 on down. I hav a lot of equipment, but I can put different combos together that I may have $1000 all in, that easily competes with a $5000 (or well more) system. Thanks for covering this topic, and doing it from such an experienced perspective.
A couple of really good points made here. Thank you for another great video. I'm one of those older audiophiles. Was deeply involved when I was young, left it behind when other priorities (marriage, children, professional development) became more important. And just recently returned. At 64, my hearing is not what it once was - especially in the higher frequencies. There are times I can swear that I feel extreme highs, but I can't always hear them. So the ceiling at which I hit the law of diminishing returns is probably lower than someone younger. The budget bookshelf speakers of today (in my case, Yamaha NS-6490) serve just fine - never would have even given these a look when I was younger. I'll eventually upgrade, but will likely limit myself to either $500 floor speakers or simply adding a sub-woofer. And you're correct - as someone who was an extreme audiophile back in the 70's, today's lower cost/performance is astounding to me.
Hey Floyd, many older guys with the same hearing issues gravitate to Klipsch tower speakers. Check out your local craigslist and you'll find some now and then. $500 could nab you an older pair of Klipsch Chorus, KG's, Fortes, KLF's, etc... You may be pleasantly surprised with how you can hear exponential horns and large woofers. No subs necessary, bi-amp terminals on most models (or an easy thing to add later).
This is why I am subscribed to this channel. Common sense take on diminishing returns especially concerning DACs and transports. My personal bias is I tend not to believe the huge sonic differences reported for digital equipment without some data. Either measurements with results that show differences that would be audible, or carefully level matched blind listening tests. Brent Butterworth did this years ago with DACs and the consensus was the sonic and difference between the DACs was so minor, that the panel members wondered why anybody would spend the extra money for it.
u can buy the most expensive gear and it still wont sound good if u dont have the right room treatment setting etc... just love what u have and enjoy it with no worries of what others think.
Cost of my system when the gear was new probably about $2500. I purchased everything used over the years for about $500. Been very happy with this system, I believe its gotten me 80%+ of what I expect. Thanks Andrew, this video helps me confirm my thoughts on the diminishing returns of audios cost to performance.
Andrew, great video. I wanted to add/touch on a point you didn't bring up. There's a point on the curve of diminishing returns where people will find the best "value" to them, but then also be faced with potential buyers remorse (what if i went a little higher, or different product). I consider myself a very "value" based audio hobbyist. And i wanted to mention a few other options/considerations. 1....the used market. Used gear (in great shape) shifts the entire curve upwards, as now you are obtaining gear above the point of diminishing returns but for the same cost! Can only afford an all-in $5,000 system? Great, get a $10,000 system for the same price...used. or 2 .... If you're not into used gear, then get "new gear" marked down. Every year Denon / Marantz and everyone else releases the refresh of their receivers. x6300, x6400, x6500. When they come out they're all $1,000 - $1,500. Wait for the new model that has right now at most 3 upgraded features you may never use, and get last years model for HALF PRICE. We're at the stage where new formats aren't coming out every year, Atmos and DTS:X will be the dominant format for the next 5-10 years (and most folks don't have the space to even fully utilize those!). Get last years model brand new for half the price. Or last years Pre-pro for half price and use the savings on the amp! Speakers don't refresh as often, but they do, so get something to hold you over for now, and if you got your eye on something for a while that you've always wanted, wait for a new model to come and get the old one NEW but discounted (or used). My Klipsch RF7s were closeout half price, brand new, no tax, free shipping when the RF7ii was announced. $,6000 Cornwalls? the Cornwall 4 was just released, if you want heritage go snag up some Cornwall 3s for closeout, or B-stock. Things like this dramatically shift the entire diminishing returns curve upwards, or you can stay where you are on the curve, and use all the savings on room treatments or other areas of your setup. I've learned there's no point buying the brand new of anything. Next eyar will always have a brand new. As you say, you can get 90% of the way there before having to spend a ton more on the curve. With these tips, you can shift the curve and get 95% of the way there for the same price, or keep the 90% and use the savings elsewhere. TVs drop even more! Last years top of the line 75" TV goes from $7,500 to $3,500. And you only gain maybe 2-3%. a 65" can go from $2,500 to $1,500.
I want to add something... when it comes to USED/2nd hand.... I would probably see 2nd hand electronics a bad idea, especially modern AVRs. But when it comes to speakers (more or less the heart of the system...) buying new was at least in my case always a bad decision, also if we would talk about predecessor models of the actual ones. My first better HiFi System was a CA Azur 650A integrated amp and 650C CD Player, in total about 1100-1200€ only for Amp/CD Player. But the goal was already to have this setup "forever" so i didnt go the "low end" way of 340/350 A/C. Adding to this, i picked "only" the KEF IQ50, 630€ with discount at these days since the IQ70/90 were at 1200€-1700€/pair. 1) thank god i didnt invest 1k more for IQ90s directly. Ofc the IQ50 were a bit "weak" in 2.0 for cinema usage, but soon i got a fair priced showroom Klipsch RW-12D sub noone else in this shop was somehow interested in. The prices fall very heavy the first years and as the Qxxx lineup, the sucessor of the IQx0 series was introduced. 2) Only about 2 years after the release of the IQ series, i got IQ 90s 2nd hand for 400€ (the PAIR!, remember, 2 years before they costed new 1600/pair at least). Ofc a very cheap deal, most were in the 600-1000€ range. they were sold because of not fitting WAF in the small bedroom (where these big boys anyways dont belong to...) 3) in coming years i collected multiple IQ3s, IQ30s, even a fair priced IQ7 SE pair (for the sake of comparing it to my IQ 90s and as "backup" if the IQ90 ever break or for spare parts. All of the speakers costed about 80€(IQ3 pair), 100-150 (IQ30 with stands) up to i think i paid anything around 300 for the IQ 7 SE pair. In fact all my used speakers (2x IQ3, 4x IQ30, 2x IQ7 SE, 2x IQ90...) costed only a bit more than the new IQ 50 (which are "garbage" with 13,5cm drivers compared to the 16cm driver versions of IQ30, 70 and 90!). But considering you could make with this used speakers 9.0 (2 IQ30s as Center) or with an additional center speaker 11.0 with POTENT IQ90 Fronts....... vs for the same price new only a 2.0 stereo System with "poor" IQ50s... For me it is totally clear, i will never ever buy new speakers again and better get 1 or 2 classes better and by 2 or even 3 generations behind. At least when it comes to passive speakers. But the time you buy/look for them is also very depending what you pay for. Most of my KEF IQ speakers are from the time as they were affordable and at its "cheapest" price point. Nowadays people want 50-120% more than i paid these days in about 2011-2014. Pretty happy about that, and i can equip my "little" home cinema/living room in the future with KEF IQs only (except subs where i use dual RW-12D Klipsch) in 13.2 as soon AVRs with 11.2/13.2 are affordable.
Personal taste can't be understated. Regarding DAC's...I recently sold a much more expensive DAC and went with something that (on paper) seems like it should be a lesser unit. The thing is, I like a warm analog sound and the DAC that I sold was all detail, no warmth, and very sterile to my ears. Some people love that, but I don't. So, the cheaper converter is my keeper.
Add that to the fact that reproduction is always an approximation. So one gets 50% of live sound for 1000, and 52% of live sound for 100,000 :) A fool and his money will be parted.
@@quantumdecoherence1289 30 K on cables? Imagine how much these people would spend on a personal trainer or dietician in an attempt to add a few years to their lives - so they could listen to more music using expensive cables.....
@@quantumdecoherence1289 the thing is Michael Fremmer will show you they do make a difference. Now is it worth it to me to spend that. No, but the dude has money and that's what he likes. I don't have a problem with that.
Totally agree with you. The other biggest difference are the speakers on that different brands tend to have their own tone signature and also their design e.g. electrostatics, traditional dipole, vented, sealed, horn tweeters, ribbon, etc... Sometimes just changing speakers and or a sub feels like a whole system upgrade.
You can save people a lot of grief by disclosing the speakers you heard for 500.00 that were total garbage. :) Regarding speakers..I heard a pair of Klipsch RP-8000f speaker the other day for about 1200 bucks a pair retail. I was taken aback by how great they sounded (and I've heard speakers costing far more than that that hardly sounded better (well, to my ears). I need to upgrade my speakers and will likely buy those. The local shop offered them to me at a significant reduction, making the decision much easier.
For $100 on facebook market place I got a 12 year old setup in immaculate condition. It included 250 watt Yamaha NS-777 tower speakers, 500 watt Yamaha amp and two 270 watt Yamaha subwoofers. My friend couldn't believe how little the difference was (to him at least), comparing my system and the $60,000 800 series B&W/Classe system he inherited from his father.
I feel that many times you really have to critically listen with varied material to hear the differences properly. Otherwise you end up relying on an old auditory memory, which may not be that great if you never really critically listen in the first place.
Hi-fi is such a scammy industry. Most of the features claimed by manufacturers to be what makes their products the best are pure gimmicks, and have either zero or negative impact on the sound quality. Cables are a prime example. James Randi has had an open challenge for many years in which anyone who can reliably tell the difference, in a properly blinded test, between ANY exotic high end cables and a cheap pair of monsters will get one million dollars, plus the bragging rights. The “golden ears” editors of “highly respected” magazine Stereophile were supposed to take him up on the challenge, but withdrew. None of the other folks recommending others to fork out thousands of dollars for worthless, but well marketed, cable products have done it either. The fact they don’t even want to attempt should tell you something about their level of confidence that there is really a difference in sound, not just perception (which really does change according to our beliefs, much like we see things in the shadows when the mood is right). My advice is simple. Modern components of decent quality are, with a big exception for speakers, performing almost perfectly. If you buy a hifi magazine and ignore the mumbo jumbo, but do look at the measurements, you’ll quickly notice that even the cheapest amp introduces far less distortion, coloring, phase issues and so on than the best speakers regardless of price point. So sensible folk who want to get a good stereo and then enjoy it for many years, as opposed to those who want to make stereo into a hobby, switch gear constantly, and discuss it all with other followers of this religion, should set a budget, find the speakers you love the most within that budget (which won’t necessarily be the most expensive within that budget), and get a cheap, op-amp based amplifier to run it. Buy the speakers used, as long as you can see and hear them in person - or, consider building them yourself. Unlike the electronics, which is basically flawless, ALL speakers are imperfect and color the sound in their particular way, whether they cost twenty bucks or a million bucks. Some are obviously bad, many are different but saying which is better comes down to taste, so trust your instincts and don’t care too much about what a reviewer thought about them, even though reviews can be a starting point to figure out what to give a listen to.
Being an electrical engineering tech. I will tell you the only thing that matters is the material of the wire. The gauge if the wire and the length of the wire. If you buy copper 12 gauge and don't have a super long stretch of wire you are set. Buy the cheapest wire with this specification.
I used to own a $15,000 DAC from Ch@$d, now I own a $hit DAC that cost $99. The $15,000 DAC sounded 0.5 X better than the $99 DAC. High-end audio is very, very overrated.
True, "cable-sound" is HiFi voodoo, but i still learned the hard way that the QUALITY of the cable (more specific, the cinch connectors!) matters. I had for MONTHS problems with my first "better" HiFi system, only about 600€ on speakers and 1200€ on Integrated Amp and CD Player. The interconnection between CD Player and Amp always worked with "regular" 10€ cables from the HiFi dealer bought with the system. But anything else i connected on the Stereo Amp - had issues with the connection all the time - until i found out these Amazon Basics cables EASILY SUX! I had to push every few days the outer ring of the connector together a bit so the outer ring makes proper contact with the Amps analog inputs! I easily got the cheapest cables from "known" brands.... problem solved.
I so absolutely love this one! ❤️ Also, the simple and straightforward manner in which you put across the relative weightage of respective components. I have been telling my friends for years that you need to budget for speakers, amplifiers/receivers and transports in that order of priority (6.5 : 3 : 0.5). Andrew you are doing an excellent job (with Christy's help, of course 😁) of not only reviewing AV gear that deserves a review, but also making it so interesting and enjoyable (not to forget the genuineness and that lovely voice & articulation of yours)! Thank you 👍
Best system ive ever heard.... Home built horn speakers, tune audio inspired design, costing 2 thousand pounds... The amps running the bass drivers where 2 mono class d amplifiers costing £100 each, pure sound tube amp for the mid tractrix horn etc,it was very life like, could almost get up and touch the singer, trip over the drum kit on your way to changing the record, it wasn't money that achieved this sound, it was knowledge and graft
Yeah, but……most of the differences I perceive at age 67 between my budget AKG K371 headphone and my Focal Elex doesn’t happen at the extremes of the frequency range but instead at the performance in the mid range. What is that I hear? I ask myself. “Tonal balance”? “Authenticity “? “Transparency”? I hear the difference but can’t find the audio reviewer’s words nor specs that can allow me to make an informed buying decision. It’s okay. We are in a hobby, not an operating room. But, truly speaking, I have EXPECTED to tap out on my personal law of diminishing returns at lower price points than I’m now spending. For me, it’s fun.
LOL'ing. Already severely diminished. But my lottery winnings and check from that guy somewhere in Africa should be here any day now. He promised. I know that he wouldn't lie. Would he?
It’s always the issue, where that point of diminishing returns kicks in. Some of us might not get to that point due to financial considerations, but if you’re consistently buying new equipment and are having a really hard time telling which one you prefer, you’ve probably reached it for yourself. Sometimes it’s different flavors as opposed to better/worse.
I've been sampling various bookshelf speakers to get a feel for what my next floorstander should be. I found that my 20 year old DefTechs still held up nicely - but the more modern bookshelfs were slightly better at treble/midrange. I did some rotations of Klipsch RP600m, KEF LS 50s, and ELAC Andantes (all purchased open box/scratch&Dent/etc). I found I liked having the different 'flavors' of sound to listen to. I also still am not sure what I will do for a new floor stander . . .
As a music lover and a musician, I cannot agree more. At the end of the day, it's just music. It's not like your 500$ gold plated cable will add extra notes or correct poor recording and mastering.
Another issue might be that your system is only as strong as its weakest link (to an extent obviously). I always get a kick out of the reviews on Stereophile that say stuff like this 1K amp didn't have the same depth that my 12K Audio Research amp had through these 50K Wilson Audio speakers. Well maybe that is true but most of us would never consider spending 50K on speakers even if we had the money to spend.
There is a $350,000 amplifier using the 833-A triode in single ended. It is not that difficult to build the same kind of amplifier for less than $2000 in parts. Designing it yourself gives complete freedom of what kind of circuits you like and what kind of components you like. Triode circuits are very simple to build and very pure sounding.
Excellent video, I think its on point in most arguments, but as an electrical engineer I feel like I have to chip in on the DAC discussion. A DAC chipset is only as good as the implementation. Board layout, layer stackup, copper weight, routing, component selection, trace widths, thermals etc makes a huge difference, not only power supply and chassi. An expensive high end 32Bit DAC might very well perform way worse than a 16bit cheap DAC if a digital signal is routed close to a sensitive analog signal, or if for example the ground layer is improperly designed. The chipset sets the upper limit of DAC performance, implementation will set the lower bound. You can find a lot of poorly routed boards out there.
A $6000 system isn't definitely going to sound 4x better than a $1500 system. And a $10,000 system isn't going to sound 2x better than a $5000 system. They WILL sound better, but the increase in perceived (and sometimes measured) sound quality will not be proportional to the increased expense or provide better value for money. That's a rule for everything in life.
At 66 I’m getting back into vinyl. From the 70’s I had Thorens for years. Now looking at the Fluance 85, with a Schiit mani. Thanks for bringing up our aging ears as this is indeed factoring into my decision process. Thank you for your great reviews. Cheers Don
Have you had a chance to hear some horn loaded speakers in a hifi setup. Many of my customers have a strong preference for horns once their hearing starts to go. The Klipsch RP 600M are especially well suited for most amps and spaces.
Your last point is particularly good. I'm pushing 70, which sucks - my old ears roll off at around 10Khz now. But on the plus side, my old scratched up vinyl records sound a lot quieter than they used to :)
Superb analysis except for me I think the law kicks in seriously around $10 thousand for a complete 2 channel system, cables and power conditioner included. I spent $15 thousand only because I am a bit of a gear addict. Under $10 grand the sound and build quality improvement curve is noticeably steeper than over $10 grand.
What i like about the video is the message that in a way protects consumers or give them sound advice on how they spend their precious dollars and still appreciate the hobby of listening to music or watching videos. It serves as a check on what sound investment is all about and convincing oneself that good audio system doesn't mean 5 figures.
@Andrew Robinson I am a musician with live audio gear, amplifiers, instruments, synths and (most connected to you) recording gear. I am a member of a studio which has both digital and analog based recording - meaning I have access to an 8 track reel to reel, a whole range of mic preamps, compressors, high end DA converters, close field monitors and room monitors. Obviously by design, a studio is a place meant for listening. Interestingly I am finding that the price of high end consumer grade audio and professional grade recording/listening equipment are similar. In fact, I would say in many cases, professional grade recording gear, even really good vintage stuff, can be less expensive. I find it a little ironic that the "out" gear may be more money than the "in" gear was and I would love to see a segment on the parallels between these two worlds. What are the differences? Could you find something audiophile grade from Sweetwater or on Reverb that’s meant more for professional use and compare it with audiophile grade stuff? Headphones are a common parallel. Most musicians use over ear headphones in the studio that were probably 200$ new. If we rock in ear monitors, we usually spend 200 to 1500 on those, for ultra custom stuff, maybe up to 5,000. Westone or Shure are good brand references for in ear. Monitors are another. Almost every studio has these Yamaha monitors (HS8s or CLA10s) and they are used extensively. Genelic (8050B) seem to be common. A good studio will also have hifi loudspeakers as well. Mic preamps (that essentially do the work of a preamp and are then sent to a Digital or Analog source) would also be interesting. I fundamentally understand the differences between close field studio monitors and loudspeakers that are meant to fill a room but would like to hear your thoughts. Lastly, live audio. Here is where it really gets ironic for me. A lot of audiophiles talk about replicating live sound, a live room, a live concert. The reality is that most medium venues at best operate with Midas preamps, usually an X32-Mix digital mixer. QSC is a popular PA brand. Most medium sized live shows are being broadcast through QSC K12 powered speakers or JBL PRX815s and some type of powered subwoofer. At best the band is using an in ear system that decreases monitor feed so headroom is increased and the bleed is through any instrument that’s acoustically heard or amplified outside of the main PA. So how good would QSC K12s be if used outside of live duty? Sorry for the long one but as a lifelong musician who is NOT an audiophile but does appreciate high end audio when heard and who has been in studios where groups like The Doors, Prince and Zeppelin have tracked, I want to understand the differences between these worlds. Thanks!
25 years ago, I spent 2 hours in a private showroom comparing 12 speakers, ranging from 150$ to 11,000$. Somewhere in the middle the 800$ speaker sounded ok. The 11K JBL tower was excellent. The 150$ Mordount-Short was the best rocker; and the 350$ Castle was the best for Classical and Jazz. All of these other speakers, that represented the hi-fi range of their day, were duds. It is similarly rare to find a good restaurant to eat in Paris, the great restaurant capital of the world.
@@Jeff-ub4lr I had success with 1 out of the 6 restaurants that I tried in one week in Paris. We would end up with a baguette and cantale back in the apartment to make up for dinner.
@@gokhanersan8561 Next time, get lost in the french country and you will have very nice surprises with the food. As a typical French, for me Paris is not France....
@@Jeff-ub4lr Will do. The crepe + Coke Zero that I had on the Paris street was a fantastic experience, though. The city was so awesome even tough steak tasted tender:)
I like that Andrew addressed the age issue. I go to shows like Axpona and it is almost exclusively old guys. I am 61 and just had my hearing checked. I got nothing above 9kHz. I used to hear the fly back transformers on CRTs at 15.6kHz but no more. It actually makes thing easier. I stopped worrying about frequency response and just listen to the music. Besides there is not much acoustic music above 5kHz. I also agree with Andrew that you are the only one who has to like your system. I am a recovering audiophile!
I think one of the ways to hear a difference is by choice of music. if you love pop music that is highly compressed it might even sound better on a lower end system. If you don‘t know what to listen for it will maybe all sound the same. For me many many years ago the first distinction that I learned to appreciate was a proper soundstage. I used to not understand what people were talking about because I could not hear it in any of the systems I had heard. Once I heard a better system with good stage and instrument separation I could never go back. I don‘t have to spend a fortune to get that. But you might be able to hear a difference once somebody points it out to you. It‘s like the tiny scratch on your car you never saw. Once you have seen it it‘s the first thing you see.
I recently got $100 speakers I'm blown away by. I played a number of songs that audiophiles say will really stress a system and make any flaws very apparent. I'm no audiophiles, but I don't notice any of these flaws with these speakers. I've spent a couple thousand in the past on systems, not getting sound this clear & crisp.
I have been using the original Quad 11L bookshelf speakers for around 20 years connected to a Cambridge CXA61. The speakers cost £330 or around $400 US. I recently replaced them with the KEF LS50. The LS50 lasted a few weeks and I have gone back to the 20 year old Quads. It left me thinking that either the KEF’s are over rated or I have some really special old speakers.
The easiest solution technology wise for speakers, is just to by yesterdays best. Almost all the speakers in my home setup are from 1990. It took a while to collect them but the cost was low and performance is amazing!
I wish people would pursue this- i'm looking at a pair of Vandersteen 2ce's mint and he's asking 350. Today's price- $2850. A great way to get a ton of bang for your buck. And unlike DACs and digital gear, speakers and amp tech hasn't advanced in any meaningful way in decades. (Class D amps excepted.)
It’s funny that £500-750 per component is the sweet spot for me and has been for a number of years. I settled in this zone after hearing some £5-10k systems that didn’t sound any different to mine. One actually sounded worse and it was around £25k worth of Naim and Kef gear on a hifi shop. I am a big fan of minimalist living. Own as little as possible. I chose an amplifier from Cambridge audio that had a decent DAC and had two optical inputs for a Chromecast audio and a tv. I eliminated the need for an external DAC or a streamer that is visible and requires it’s own shelf in a rack. I like to look at music as my hobby rather than hifi😎
Lex....keep in mind, you heard those other more expensive setups in different rooms than you listen to your system in. And for what it is worth Naim and KEF tend to be on the thin, brighter sounding end of the spectrum. (both over priced in my opinion) To use them together isnt a good match. System synergy is very important
Great video mate. I built my last system out of used gear. I went for used 2 Sony tan55es amps, running in bridged mono mode which I paid about £380 for the pair. Fantastic sounding, super transparent and low noise amps. I bought a used pair of tannoy dc6t tower speakers for £300 in mint condition (they were 1200 on their release) The system was minimal, just a laptop with a streaming service going through a JDS lab ODAC which was around £100. And to my ears it sounded open and incredibly alive, I couldn't hear anything on my mates £8000 linn set up which was immediately better than mine. On the subject have a look at a forum called audiosciencereview, this guy does scientific measurement on as many DACs as possible, and there's many in the 100-400 range that are in the tope 25th percentile. With crazy DACs that cost 1000's
the other great hi-end 'cheat' people don't think about is getting a very good dac and a great pair of headphones. with high quality sources, that will give you sound quality that would cost $5-10k in a speaker/amp setup for under a thousand bucks.
Great video, thanks Andrew. As an ex-dealer, reviewer, designer and enthusiast, I love all things that bring us closer to music. In my experience, there are some advantages to be found in finding an audio 'destination'. That is, sometimes time spent at a high end dealer or with a friend with a great system can help you develop a pathway that might reduce taking mis-steps. A good dealer might help you over time get to that system. The end result can be a magnificent system that is a pleasure to use and own, achieved in a cost effective way. Sometimes people spend more over time on middling gear - chopping and changing - than they might by knowing where they are going in the first place.
I would also add a fourth element of how you mix and match your equipment. A cheaper system that pairs well might sound better than just say an expensive system that is poorly put together. A first hand example would be that i listened to an expensive pair of planar magnetic headphones on an expensive tube amp and it sounded like trash, not because the products are trash, but because they don't match to where a cheaper pair of neodymium headphones sounded like butter on the same tube amp. Pairings are as or more important than the $$$ spent
Interesting - age comments ... I still amp up: Life in the Fast Lane Power of Love All of Bach's Brandenburgs Beethoven's 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9th Symphonies Big Band jazz Sinatra Amp is down for others ... lol😄 Am 77 and, so far, everything is in perfect, eager, working order ! Still working and renovating home, too, so need music while renovating. Like lower volumes of sound when writing scripts, short stories, lyrics. Enjoy your videos a lot. Thanks to both of you for your effort. Have a nice day. Am rotten at guitar and piano but play them anyway.
"Butter Zone" just officially entered my vocabulary. Awesome video! I am so very glad you gave your thoughts on this!! This is the difference between a knowledgeable reviewer and a salesperson. Sales people will never answer this question in such a straightforward way, if at all. There is, of course, more to the appeal of stereo and AV gear than solely sound quality (appearance, durability, convenience, technological novelty), and for many people that's worth spending some money on. As for getting old and not being able to hear a difference, it's not unreasonable to think better gear is in order to compensate for impaired hearing. That's really just a philosophy about what to do about the inevitable decline in hearing sensitivity. I think the only reason to put less attention into audio gear would be diminished interest in listening, rather than diminished hearing ability. Also, probably what holds most people back in terms of hearing subtle differences in sound is training and experience rather than strict frequency sensitivity. Most music over the last century was recorded and mixed by people over 40, many over 50. So unless you're really close to completely deaf I don't think you have to give up on good sound and just relegate yourself to squeaky little speakers. I guess that's probably a subject that can be addressed in a different video completely some day.
Cheers Andrew.. really enjoyed the video & this is how younger people like to hear about HIFI.. so that they know which way to go & how to get into this hobby..
Great answers all around especially with the DAC portion of the video. I find it hilarious when old men with thick white hairs sticking out of their ear canals are worrying about whether their speaker cables are high enough off the ground for optimal audio performance.
I'm running all Parasound pre-amps, power amps, that I would call the middle range, as far as price points. And what I like most with the A21 is its Class A output up to 8-10w. Its just superb and I didn't have to spend into the 10s of 1000s to get there. And if I do crank it up for a movie, those power amps aren't going fall short of the task, so a benefit compared to an under powered AVR. To be fair, some AVRs do have enough power to do the trick.
I like your style and the information you share here. From my experience my requirements in quality of a system is related to how much live music I listen. Especially in the realm of acustic music - classical, jazz, as an exemple. When I was going to live concerts very often, I was starting to feel the limitations of my system (I invested about 15000€ in it) in reproduction of music. When I just listen to my system for months without going to a concert hall, the same system is a totally satisfying performer... There is the tricky thing : I'm not the same me every time. :-) I guess that if I didn't had my live experience background, I would enjoy a lot of less then 1000€ systems that are on the market nowadays...
What he is saying here ..In my opinion...applies to any mass produced product. Once you get past "average or mid range"..the cost goes up exponentially for small improvements
90% of audio enthusiasts forgets room treatment all together... most of the rest quickly realise room treatment usually happens inversely proportional to WAF values.
I paid $750 for a Denon AVR-2500 Receiver in the early nineties. Just bought one of the tiny Fosi Audio amps for $70 and can tell no difference when playing CD’s on my $750 Adcom GDC-750 player. Sure if I had a $100 CD player from today, it’d be the same case. Just amazing what is available today.
No its nooot !!! This guy talks bullllshit if you paid 750 for a denon in the 90s its today compareable to amps at least in the same price range !! Bro you wanna say you,re denon is same like a amp for 100.- in 2022 ??????????
Can totally agree.....I'm an older listener, a senior actually, and I bought a B&W home theatre system around 2002 which I paid around 2700 bucks back then. Well to make a long story short I have pissed away money on "later" technology at the behest of a brother who is retired from the industry. He told me how much technology has improved. So I have bought Pioneer, ELAC, Klipsch, chasing this improvement which just hasn't panned out. I also bought a used pair of B&W 685 S2 used on E bay. They sounded kind of small compared to my DM600 series from 2002. I had a hard time with them until I put them in my bedroom with Emotiva PT-100 pre-amp and bas-x150 amp.This is all entry level stuff from these manufacturers. In my bedroom this system just came alive and blew me away. I can't imagine anything that's going to top it by much. I watch all these glowing reviews from all these reviewers and it's easy to get sucked in to thinking that one product is going to fix your system and fix you. I'm pretty much done with it as I don't think I'm going to get much better by throwing money at it.
Hey Andrew another great episode. i have noticed that there are some great deals on speakers now, great bang for buck. ie. ELAC, PSB, Aperion. I totally agree with you that there is some great stuff out there for not that much money. Using my 1991 Esoteric CD-Z500 player as transport, and a 350 dollar Cambridge Audio up-sampling DAC I am getting some great sound. Little price tag for a great DAC.
For me pushing the limit is 3,000 usd for a set of speakers, after that speakers will not sound any better, just the finish of the speaker will be better, but not the sound quaity! I had the B&W 803 D3. I compared them to a new set of Boston Acoustics M350 and Tektons double impact and the sound quality was pretty much the same, just the finish and aesthetics of the B&W was better. Another speaker that I consider giant killers are the Elacs, Magnepans and the old Boston Acoustics Lynnfield series VR series speakers.
Like your straight shooter approach. And this video was really a prime example of your substance over style perspective. So I have a question about turntables. Between all the specialization on cartridges, tonearms, motors, etc., etc. (you know this better than the rest of us) what’s a decent price to pay for an audiophile turntable before the law of diminishing returns kicks in? And thanks for sharing your thoughts 👍
Correct, the KEF motto back in the 70s used to be: "If you can't hear the difference, don't pay the difference." Class A amps are very fickle, because in theory they can put pure (zero frequency) DC current into the speaker coils, and burn them out. Not to mention the circuit balance and the zero crossover distortion challenge. Big dollars to correct those challenges.
Binge watching your videos now. Good stuff! Just wanna point out that two DAC units with the same DAC chip can sound VERY different, depending on the other components in the unit.
Diminishing returns = the S-curve. Old ears but experienced brains (references) works fine for me. The ear/brain combo is hard to define in numbers. Maybe perception (memory) fill in the blanks or connect the dots. (frequencies)
I am 81. In the 60's, i purchased a three way system and built self designed speaker boxes to hold them. They still work well but I can't use them. I took the speakers and crossovers out of the boxes and am storing them. Is there a market for them?
AGE: My hearing is shot from 40 years of abuse. While I can't mix with any accuracy anymore, music playback sounds pretty much the same to me as it did when I was young. Can't take the loud SPL anymore and while I know there are holes in my auditory response, the experience is just as enjoyable. It's kind of like life-- It's not about the adrenaline rush of riding a constant roller coaster. (JBL) But, realizing the subtleties and richness I missed when I was young. (classical music on my Castle Winchester's) I still kayak and climb the odd mountain... and crank out the volume for short periods on my JBL 4315 legacy studio monitors.
This. If a manufacturer purely relies on the DAC chip itself to do all the work then he might be right with his statement. But most high end DACs and streamers heavily modify the reference design to get more accurate clocks and more stable reference voltage and use multiple Chips per channel etc. And these things matter a lot in fact. You barley see a high end digital source just putting the DAC chip as it is and using the manufacturers reference circuit. This is something most mid tier streamer (amps) do. You can't simply say "oh this 700 $ streaming amp uses the same AKM 4497eq that is also found in Linn's Katalyst Design. It's probably already very close in sound." That's like saying "oh this B&W 606 uses the "same" continuum woofer found on the 805. It's probably almost as good."
I am the guy (or maybe one of several) who wrote to you with the question about diminishing returns, so thank you for addressing that. I will say right off the bat that you gave me a very valuable insight. You've already had a lot of influence on me and my choice of gear. I went ahead and got my name on a waiting list for a pair of Magnepan LRS, which are power-hungry. But this same podcast open up a whole new question, what's this about class D amps that punch above their weight? So I went back through your list of videos and watched the one about the Crown XLR 1002. I was ready to pull the trigger on that one but then I realized I don't know how to use my streaming services with the Crown. Is it possible?
I also think a great factor of this is that some of us live as heavy consumers. We justify ourselves in why we need to get the next biggest thing, companies will throw fancy jargon, features we may never need, and of course the more sleeker, sexier look of the unit that drives us in. These factors are what tricks our mind into thinking that the product will inherently sound better than something of an older age.
Good video Andrew. A good primer for those who are new to the hobby or a reminder for those who wonder why their upgradeitis never seems to get any where.
When I was 21 I befriended an old audio guy and former salesman. Armed me as a shopper when i bought my first stereo. 28 years later I'm still running my celestion trinity speaker system. On a pawnshop denon receiver. Sounds great. Still.
That's usually the main difference. That's why picking high end gear while living in a small apartment just makes no sense, because you won't be playing loud anyway. And if you do play loud, your neighbours will get mad at you. Only buy high end gear if you live in a house with lots of space.
When it comes to an AV receiver, is it better to buy say a high end model from 2017, or would a brand new 2021 mid range model perform better? Let's use Denon for example, used x3300(2017) or brand new 970h(2021)?
Thanks for posting this vid - I'll give you tons and tons of credit, talk about a sensitive subject ! Tougher yet to generalize about it, but again, plenty of credit to you! The issue for me is a person declaring: "this sounds better than that" - stupid though it may seem, the word "sound" needs to be defined before one can say "this is better than that" - - for example, my 2.1 sound system for my computer (which does include a decent sound card) "sounds" excellent, but even including the sound card I doubt I put more than 400 or 450 bucks into it - - on the other hand, I'm fortunate enough to have what most would consider a reference or at least an entrance level reference audiophile system - it too "sounds" excellent - - diminishing returns? MOST DEFINITELY! But what are we talking about? Yeah, to me they both "sound" excellent and I do get fully involved in music using either system, but obviously the differences are huge. So unless there's an agreement of the criteria defining "sound" then I think it's really tough to have an honest discussion about where to draw the line when investing in audio gear. Thanks again for posting.
You can use this video as a "Sweet Spot" reference. From there you can make videos about a budget HiFi system, mid HiFi system and a higher-end HiFi system of that sweet spot of yours. That would be very helpful to us who don't have enough time or the money to try all these different parts, before we make a conclusion.
Thanks for your openness and honesty so many push overpriced as the way to enjoy your listening experience. Being 50% deaf in one ear means my listening experience is to how I like what I like and most others can't understand what I call good sound. So yes I like what I've built and it suits what I need to enjoy my Listening Experience. Thanks Andrew.
The market is certainly not geared towards you; so congratulations on finding something that makes you happy. I would like Andrew to do a video on hearing loss with age. I walked into a room at Bristol hifi show with an old chap rocking out to some Elton John, which to me was, at an ear piercing volume with painful sibilance.
I still have my 80's JBL L112's and they still sound sweet with modern 2023 audio equipment. My main listening speakers. No plan to ever sell them until I croak.
Thanks for raising the question of impact of age-related HF hearing loss on the law of diminishing returns. Do you think it might apply to choosing between standard and Hi Res streaming services?
The source is the thing that does the biggest change on the signal, not the DAC. But the reason why most people don't realise this, is because the source standard is very low. And on top of that, then a lot of users go for the low end models, and then on top of that they set it up in a way that is not close to optimal. Hence making most people solve their problems with a DAC. (which is actually more of a way of compensating) So in a way Andrew is still right.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews i started folowing your channel recently when i found the crown amplifier review, the simple principle of reviewing a pro grade class d amplifier for home use was out of the box in thinking, something we don't regulary see in reviewers of audiophile gear... By the way i really enjoyed the comment on expensive transports connected to expensive dacs, what is really the point?? Congrats to you and your channel, i am a fan.
Can you give examples of these $500 systems sounding as good as $4,000 systems? Two systems with the same exact DAC chip can still sound vastly different, power delivery, noise isolation, capacitor quality make huge difference. Diminishing return is extremely subjective in this regard. I just got my dream system, Sonus Faber Olympica 3 speakers powered by McIntosh MC452, to my ears it sounds multiple times better than a $500 or even $5,000.
My favorite test of equipment to prove you don't have to spend stupid amounts of money to have world class sound was of record players. I will let you search it out. But in the end it may as well be a guessing game on which unit was the best. This was done with a 70's unit coasting in todays money $600 and one that was 3/4 of a million dollars. There are downloads to listen to the music of both and you can a/b them on your own system.
I'm 64 y/o. I've been an audiophile since the '70s. I don't want to think of the money I've spent over the years chasing hi-fi sound (mostly tube stuff). Now with a super inexpensive and efficient Crown XLS 1502/ Emotiva PT-100/ Polk RTi /SVS 2.1 system (in a treated room), I get FANTASTIC sound reproduction. Are my ears as good as when younger? No. Is the sound still fantastic? Yes! This is truly the golden age of hi-fi. I would have done backflips to get this level of sound quality, at these prices, years ago. I can't get over how good solid-state has gotten in the last twenty years.
i was expecting Polk LSi line, but yeah.
Andrew you hit it right on the head at the end. I am 80 years old and love my vinyl on my old technics table. No use to upgrade as my hearing aids can't tell the difference. I am happy with what I have and as you say I only have to please myself. LOL
You hit the nail. Some young folks should listen to your advice "Please your self"
45 years ago, or thereabouts, I bought my first real hifi system. Quad 33/303, Michelle Focus 1 with SME3009 and a pair of Kef Concerto's. Over the next 25 years various components were changed and "upgraded". Not really sure if they were truly upgraded or I just bought into the latest blurb at the time. Now I am 66 years old, living abroad where good hifi is hard to come by, small room sizes and one ear that only works at about 10% efficiency have made me seriously change my listening habits. I now have a custom built laptop computer with a good DAC and a pair of Audioengine 2+ speakers. A big change for me, but what I have discovered is that I really enjoy the sound of this meager set-up. It certainly is not the best in terms of hifi systems but it is enjoyable enough that I listen every day and I am listening to Bach, Diana Krall, John Coltrane, The Beatles, Creedance Clearwater, Fleetwood Mac, Simon & Garfunkel, Emmylou Harris, Willie Nelson and a whole lot more. What I discovered was something I wish I had learned many years ago was this, ignore the cost, ignore other peoples opinions, ignore fashion, just find something YOU enjoy and enjoy it.
As you said. "If it sounds good to you, that's all that should matter". Never buy to impress.
Wow, this is by far the best "audiophile" content I've yet seen on RUclips. So refreshing to see someone with a reasonable and rational perspective on this stuff!
How dare you have a common sense audiophile discussion! Love the transport comment! Go Andrew!
You obviously never heard vintage stuff. You talk rubbish
“Audiophile discussion...” not when a receiver is spoken to.
Whilst upgrading a DAC gives more of an improvement I've heard transports compared to different cd players/cheaper transports and there is an improvement. However most failed to beat Spotify by much and tidal masters completely outclassed anything CD related. The CD player is gathering dust.
@@NominalTopic I have to agree on that one. Using a receiver instead of a dedicated stereo amp for music is a big mistake. Even my 30 year old Sony amp outclassed any receiver I've tried. The difference between using a 400 pound pioneer AV receiver and a 400 pound musical fidelity 15 year old amp is night and day and there is less difference between that and the 30 year old Sony amp than the receiver and the Sony! Musicality is not good on AV. Lose out almost everywhere especially detail. Bass is over boosted too in order to sound good with films.
@@spinachhandsjklolsmh9053 small brain = hears differences in transports. xD xD xD
Also in wires. You spend your money on placebo effects, audiophile manufacturers globally love you.
The system I had built between 1974-1980 would cost me about $12,000 today. I didn’t have all of the responsibility I have today, which means I can’t afford to spend that on a system. Today I have about $2000 in my system and it gives me pretty good sound. I listen to music not the equipment.
The first CD players were really expensive. and in the 70's and early 80's you might have had a reel to reel tape
Agree, it's the music that is the most important.
I'm glad you addressed the last point. I'm 42 years old. I've played music in bands, recorded and mixed my own music, and listened to music daily for over 25 years. I recently realized I can't hear much over 13.5 kHz. Some of it is probably chronic sinus issues. But a lot of it is just hearing loss. For that reason, I like fairly bright speakers. I also don't need a ton of low end because it just masks the high end for me. Realizing this has helped informed my purchases. If someone describes a speaker as "warm" or "dark," chances are that I won't love it. All that said, I'd like to think I'm not enjoying music any less.
Ha Ha dont like bright speakers ? High frequencies are the first frequencies to go with hearing lost.
I really like that Andrew didn't shy away from just offering price ranges/points. Thank you! I think this is one of my favorite HiFi discussions and one of my favorite HiFi videos of the last year.
The art world and it's dealers are one of the worst about not publishing prices. Most of the time it's a kind of snobby "Price On Request" thing. There are some jewelry and stone dealers who will just post the price for a one million dollar diamond with no baloney attached while many "art" dealers won't post the price on a $1000 painting, print or drawing. Really annoying, condescending, self indulgent and pretentious. What are they afraid of?
Great video and dare I say it, a lot more truthful than most other audiophile channels.
Not trying to expose anything (or anyone) just trying to be real with you guys.
Your numbers, or level of the beginning of diminished return are exactly, and I mean exactly the numbers that I've experienced. Which is why with my budget I can't see spending over $500 on used, $700 new on speakers, around $300 on a DAC, and i use a Goodwill CD player (which was a top of the line Yamaha in 2000) for a transport. I use vintage power amps so I get thousands of dollars worth of quality for $350 on down. I hav a lot of equipment, but I can put different combos together that I may have $1000 all in, that easily competes with a $5000 (or well more) system. Thanks for covering this topic, and doing it from such an experienced perspective.
A couple of really good points made here. Thank you for another great video.
I'm one of those older audiophiles. Was deeply involved when I was young, left it behind when other priorities (marriage, children, professional development) became more important. And just recently returned. At 64, my hearing is not what it once was - especially in the higher frequencies. There are times I can swear that I feel extreme highs, but I can't always hear them. So the ceiling at which I hit the law of diminishing returns is probably lower than someone younger. The budget bookshelf speakers of today (in my case, Yamaha NS-6490) serve just fine - never would have even given these a look when I was younger. I'll eventually upgrade, but will likely limit myself to either $500 floor speakers or simply adding a sub-woofer. And you're correct - as someone who was an extreme audiophile back in the 70's, today's lower cost/performance is astounding to me.
Hey Floyd, many older guys with the same hearing issues gravitate to Klipsch tower speakers. Check out your local craigslist and you'll find some now and then. $500 could nab you an older pair of Klipsch Chorus, KG's, Fortes, KLF's, etc... You may be pleasantly surprised with how you can hear exponential horns and large woofers. No subs necessary, bi-amp terminals on most models (or an easy thing to add later).
This is why I am subscribed to this channel. Common sense take on diminishing returns especially concerning DACs and transports. My personal bias is I tend not to believe the huge sonic differences reported for digital equipment without some data. Either measurements with results that show differences that would be audible, or carefully level matched blind listening tests. Brent Butterworth did this years ago with DACs and the consensus was the sonic and difference between the DACs was so minor, that the panel members wondered why anybody would spend the extra money for it.
u can buy the most expensive gear and it still wont sound good if u dont have the right room treatment setting etc... just love what u have and enjoy it with no worries of what others think.
Cost of my system when the gear was new probably about $2500. I purchased everything used over the years for about $500. Been very happy with this system, I believe its gotten me 80%+ of what I expect. Thanks Andrew, this video helps me confirm my thoughts on the diminishing returns of audios cost to performance.
thank you for watching!
Andrew, great video. I wanted to add/touch on a point you didn't bring up. There's a point on the curve of diminishing returns where people will find the best "value" to them, but then also be faced with potential buyers remorse (what if i went a little higher, or different product). I consider myself a very "value" based audio hobbyist. And i wanted to mention a few other options/considerations. 1....the used market. Used gear (in great shape) shifts the entire curve upwards, as now you are obtaining gear above the point of diminishing returns but for the same cost! Can only afford an all-in $5,000 system? Great, get a $10,000 system for the same price...used. or 2 .... If you're not into used gear, then get "new gear" marked down. Every year Denon / Marantz and everyone else releases the refresh of their receivers. x6300, x6400, x6500. When they come out they're all $1,000 - $1,500. Wait for the new model that has right now at most 3 upgraded features you may never use, and get last years model for HALF PRICE. We're at the stage where new formats aren't coming out every year, Atmos and DTS:X will be the dominant format for the next 5-10 years (and most folks don't have the space to even fully utilize those!). Get last years model brand new for half the price. Or last years Pre-pro for half price and use the savings on the amp! Speakers don't refresh as often, but they do, so get something to hold you over for now, and if you got your eye on something for a while that you've always wanted, wait for a new model to come and get the old one NEW but discounted (or used). My Klipsch RF7s were closeout half price, brand new, no tax, free shipping when the RF7ii was announced. $,6000 Cornwalls? the Cornwall 4 was just released, if you want heritage go snag up some Cornwall 3s for closeout, or B-stock. Things like this dramatically shift the entire diminishing returns curve upwards, or you can stay where you are on the curve, and use all the savings on room treatments or other areas of your setup. I've learned there's no point buying the brand new of anything. Next eyar will always have a brand new. As you say, you can get 90% of the way there before having to spend a ton more on the curve. With these tips, you can shift the curve and get 95% of the way there for the same price, or keep the 90% and use the savings elsewhere. TVs drop even more! Last years top of the line 75" TV goes from $7,500 to $3,500. And you only gain maybe 2-3%. a 65" can go from $2,500 to $1,500.
I want to add something... when it comes to USED/2nd hand....
I would probably see 2nd hand electronics a bad idea, especially modern AVRs.
But when it comes to speakers (more or less the heart of the system...) buying new was at least in my case always a bad decision, also if we would talk about predecessor models of the actual ones.
My first better HiFi System was a CA Azur 650A integrated amp and 650C CD Player, in total about 1100-1200€ only for Amp/CD Player. But the goal was already to have this setup "forever" so i didnt go the "low end" way of 340/350 A/C.
Adding to this, i picked "only" the KEF IQ50, 630€ with discount at these days since the IQ70/90 were at 1200€-1700€/pair.
1) thank god i didnt invest 1k more for IQ90s directly. Ofc the IQ50 were a bit "weak" in 2.0 for cinema usage, but soon i got a fair priced showroom Klipsch RW-12D sub noone else in this shop was somehow interested in. The prices fall very heavy the first years and as the Qxxx lineup, the sucessor of the IQx0 series was introduced.
2) Only about 2 years after the release of the IQ series, i got IQ 90s 2nd hand for 400€ (the PAIR!, remember, 2 years before they costed new 1600/pair at least). Ofc a very cheap deal, most were in the 600-1000€ range. they were sold because of not fitting WAF in the small bedroom (where these big boys anyways dont belong to...)
3) in coming years i collected multiple IQ3s, IQ30s, even a fair priced IQ7 SE pair (for the sake of comparing it to my IQ 90s and as "backup" if the IQ90 ever break or for spare parts. All of the speakers costed about 80€(IQ3 pair), 100-150 (IQ30 with stands) up to i think i paid anything around 300 for the IQ 7 SE pair.
In fact all my used speakers (2x IQ3, 4x IQ30, 2x IQ7 SE, 2x IQ90...) costed only a bit more than the new IQ 50 (which are "garbage" with 13,5cm drivers compared to the 16cm driver versions of IQ30, 70 and 90!).
But considering you could make with this used speakers 9.0 (2 IQ30s as Center) or with an additional center speaker 11.0 with POTENT IQ90 Fronts....... vs for the same price new only a 2.0 stereo System with "poor" IQ50s...
For me it is totally clear, i will never ever buy new speakers again and better get 1 or 2 classes better and by 2 or even 3 generations behind. At least when it comes to passive speakers.
But the time you buy/look for them is also very depending what you pay for.
Most of my KEF IQ speakers are from the time as they were affordable and at its "cheapest" price point. Nowadays people want 50-120% more than i paid these days in about 2011-2014.
Pretty happy about that, and i can equip my "little" home cinema/living room in the future with KEF IQs only (except subs where i use dual RW-12D Klipsch) in 13.2 as soon AVRs with 11.2/13.2 are affordable.
Personal taste can't be understated. Regarding DAC's...I recently sold a much more expensive DAC and went with something that (on paper) seems like it should be a lesser unit. The thing is, I like a warm analog sound and the DAC that I sold was all detail, no warmth, and very sterile to my ears. Some people love that, but I don't. So, the cheaper converter is my keeper.
One sensible person talking about quality audio, love it
The irony of audiophiles-
Music being recorded with mediocre equipment being listened to on ridiculously expensive equipment.
Add that to the fact that reproduction is always an approximation. So one gets 50% of live sound for 1000, and 52% of live sound for 100,000 :) A fool and his money will be parted.
Yep, like that Michael Fremer moron who thinks $30k cables (yes, not a typo!) will make a difference
@@quantumdecoherence1289 well, I think he knows it doesn't make a difference ;)
@@quantumdecoherence1289 30 K on cables? Imagine how much these people would spend on a personal trainer or dietician in an attempt to add a few years to their lives - so they could listen to more music using expensive cables.....
@@quantumdecoherence1289 the thing is Michael Fremmer will show you they do make a difference. Now is it worth it to me to spend that. No, but the dude has money and that's what he likes. I don't have a problem with that.
Totally agree with you. The other biggest difference are the speakers on that different brands tend to have their own tone signature and also their design e.g. electrostatics, traditional dipole, vented, sealed, horn tweeters, ribbon, etc... Sometimes just changing speakers and or a sub feels like a whole system upgrade.
You can save people a lot of grief by disclosing the speakers you heard for 500.00 that were total garbage. :)
Regarding speakers..I heard a pair of Klipsch RP-8000f speaker the other day for about 1200 bucks a pair retail. I was taken aback by how great they sounded (and I've heard speakers costing far more than that that hardly sounded better (well, to my ears). I need to upgrade my speakers and will likely buy those. The local shop offered them to me at a significant reduction, making the decision much easier.
For $100 on facebook market place I got a 12 year old setup in immaculate condition. It included 250 watt Yamaha NS-777 tower speakers, 500 watt Yamaha amp and two 270 watt Yamaha subwoofers. My friend couldn't believe how little the difference was (to him at least), comparing my system and the $60,000 800 series B&W/Classe system he inherited from his father.
I feel that many times you really have to critically listen with varied material to hear the differences properly. Otherwise you end up relying on an old auditory memory, which may not be that great if you never really critically listen in the first place.
😂 ya I believe it. You’re paying 90% in marketing costs with those high end brands.
Hi-fi is such a scammy industry. Most of the features claimed by manufacturers to be what makes their products the best are pure gimmicks, and have either zero or negative impact on the sound quality. Cables are a prime example. James Randi has had an open challenge for many years in which anyone who can reliably tell the difference, in a properly blinded test, between ANY exotic high end cables and a cheap pair of monsters will get one million dollars, plus the bragging rights. The “golden ears” editors of “highly respected” magazine Stereophile were supposed to take him up on the challenge, but withdrew. None of the other folks recommending others to fork out thousands of dollars for worthless, but well marketed, cable products have done it either. The fact they don’t even want to attempt should tell you something about their level of confidence that there is really a difference in sound, not just perception (which really does change according to our beliefs, much like we see things in the shadows when the mood is right).
My advice is simple. Modern components of decent quality are, with a big exception for speakers, performing almost perfectly. If you buy a hifi magazine and ignore the mumbo jumbo, but do look at the measurements, you’ll quickly notice that even the cheapest amp introduces far less distortion, coloring, phase issues and so on than the best speakers regardless of price point. So sensible folk who want to get a good stereo and then enjoy it for many years, as opposed to those who want to make stereo into a hobby, switch gear constantly, and discuss it all with other followers of this religion, should set a budget, find the speakers you love the most within that budget (which won’t necessarily be the most expensive within that budget), and get a cheap, op-amp based amplifier to run it. Buy the speakers used, as long as you can see and hear them in person - or, consider building them yourself. Unlike the electronics, which is basically flawless, ALL speakers are imperfect and color the sound in their particular way, whether they cost twenty bucks or a million bucks. Some are obviously bad, many are different but saying which is better comes down to taste, so trust your instincts and don’t care too much about what a reviewer thought about them, even though reviews can be a starting point to figure out what to give a listen to.
Being an electrical engineering tech. I will tell you the only thing that matters is the material of the wire. The gauge if the wire and the length of the wire. If you buy copper 12 gauge and don't have a super long stretch of wire you are set. Buy the cheapest wire with this specification.
I used to own a $15,000 DAC from Ch@$d, now I own a $hit DAC that cost $99. The $15,000 DAC sounded 0.5 X better than the $99 DAC. High-end audio is very, very overrated.
The funny thing is, people who buy this expinsive stuff, often forget the most important thing. THE ROOM!
Cables is the Biggest scam But speakers and amps makes a difference for most part
True, "cable-sound" is HiFi voodoo, but i still learned the hard way that the QUALITY of the cable (more specific, the cinch connectors!) matters.
I had for MONTHS problems with my first "better" HiFi system, only about 600€ on speakers and 1200€ on Integrated Amp and CD Player.
The interconnection between CD Player and Amp always worked with "regular" 10€ cables from the HiFi dealer bought with the system.
But anything else i connected on the Stereo Amp - had issues with the connection all the time - until i found out these Amazon Basics cables EASILY SUX! I had to push every few days the outer ring of the connector together a bit so the outer ring makes proper contact with the Amps analog inputs!
I easily got the cheapest cables from "known" brands.... problem solved.
I so absolutely love this one! ❤️
Also, the simple and straightforward manner in which you put across the relative weightage of respective components. I have been telling my friends for years that you need to budget for speakers, amplifiers/receivers and transports in that order of priority (6.5 : 3 : 0.5).
Andrew you are doing an excellent job (with Christy's help, of course 😁) of not only reviewing AV gear that deserves a review, but also making it so interesting and enjoyable (not to forget the genuineness and that lovely voice & articulation of yours)! Thank you 👍
Best system ive ever heard.... Home built horn speakers, tune audio inspired design, costing 2 thousand pounds... The amps running the bass drivers where 2 mono class d amplifiers costing £100 each, pure sound tube amp for the mid tractrix horn etc,it was very life like, could almost get up and touch the singer, trip over the drum kit on your way to changing the record, it wasn't money that achieved this sound, it was knowledge and graft
Smart. Honest. Unpretentious. Thanks.
Your last point is the biggest elephant in the room for audiophiles. Well said Sir!
Yeah, but……most of the differences I perceive at age 67 between my budget AKG K371 headphone and my Focal Elex doesn’t happen at the extremes of the frequency range but instead at the performance in the mid range. What is that I hear? I ask myself. “Tonal balance”? “Authenticity “? “Transparency”? I hear the difference but can’t find the audio reviewer’s words nor specs that can allow me to make an informed buying decision. It’s okay. We are in a hobby, not an operating room. But, truly speaking, I have EXPECTED to tap out on my personal law of diminishing returns at lower price points than I’m now spending. For me, it’s fun.
Could you please do a video on the "Law of my diminishing wallet"?
LOL'ing. Already severely diminished. But my lottery winnings and check from that guy somewhere in Africa should be here any day now. He promised. I know that he wouldn't lie. Would he?
It’s always the issue, where that point of diminishing returns kicks in. Some of us might not get to that point due to financial considerations, but if you’re consistently buying new equipment and are having a really hard time telling which one you prefer, you’ve probably reached it for yourself. Sometimes it’s different flavors as opposed to better/worse.
I've been sampling various bookshelf speakers to get a feel for what my next floorstander should be. I found that my 20 year old DefTechs still held up nicely - but the more modern bookshelfs were slightly better at treble/midrange. I did some rotations of Klipsch RP600m, KEF LS 50s, and ELAC Andantes (all purchased open box/scratch&Dent/etc). I found I liked having the different 'flavors' of sound to listen to. I also still am not sure what I will do for a new floor stander . . .
My old Sansui AU-7900 (which I grabbed at a flea market for $55) was very pleased to hear all this :)
As a music lover and a musician, I cannot agree more. At the end of the day, it's just music. It's not like your 500$ gold plated cable will add extra notes or correct poor recording and mastering.
BOOM! thank you for weighing in!
BEST VIDEO TO DATE!!!! Great job.... Anyone and everyone considering stepping into the Audiophile or Videophile world, TAKE NOTE..... TRUTH
As a long term budget hifi buyer I have found a lot of bang-for-the-buck from Marantz electronics paired with Dynaudio speakers.
Another issue might be that your system is only as strong as its weakest link (to an extent obviously). I always get a kick out of the reviews on Stereophile that say stuff like this 1K amp didn't have the same depth that my 12K Audio Research amp had through these 50K Wilson Audio speakers. Well maybe that is true but most of us would never consider spending 50K on speakers even if we had the money to spend.
There is a $350,000 amplifier using the 833-A triode in single ended. It is not that difficult to build the same kind of amplifier for less than $2000 in parts. Designing it yourself gives complete freedom of what kind of circuits you like and what kind of components you like. Triode circuits are very simple to build and very pure sounding.
Excellent video, I think its on point in most arguments, but as an electrical engineer I feel like I have to chip in on the DAC discussion. A DAC chipset is only as good as the implementation. Board layout, layer stackup, copper weight, routing, component selection, trace widths, thermals etc makes a huge difference, not only power supply and chassi. An expensive high end 32Bit DAC might very well perform way worse than a 16bit cheap DAC if a digital signal is routed close to a sensitive analog signal, or if for example the ground layer is improperly designed. The chipset sets the upper limit of DAC performance, implementation will set the lower bound. You can find a lot of poorly routed boards out there.
Fully agree
This is the best video I've ever seen on this subject because your answer is direct and detailed, this is why I subscribed your channel, thank you!
Appreciate that!
A $6000 system isn't definitely going to sound 4x better than a $1500 system. And a $10,000 system isn't going to sound 2x better than a $5000 system. They WILL sound better, but the increase in perceived (and sometimes measured) sound quality will not be proportional to the increased expense or provide better value for money. That's a rule for everything in life.
At 66 I’m getting back into vinyl. From the 70’s I had Thorens for years. Now looking at the Fluance 85, with a Schiit mani. Thanks for bringing up our aging ears as this is indeed factoring into my decision process. Thank you for your great reviews. Cheers Don
Have you had a chance to hear some horn loaded speakers in a hifi setup. Many of my customers have a strong preference for horns once their hearing starts to go. The Klipsch RP 600M are especially well suited for most amps and spaces.
Your last point is particularly good. I'm pushing 70, which sucks - my old ears roll off at around 10Khz now. But on the plus side, my old scratched up vinyl records sound a lot quieter than they used to :)
🤣👍
At last - an audiophile talking absolute common sense (something - in my opinion, anyway - sadly lacking in the audio equation for many years)
Superb analysis except for me I think the law kicks in seriously around $10 thousand for a complete 2 channel system, cables and power conditioner included. I spent $15 thousand only because I am a bit of a gear addict. Under $10 grand the sound and build quality improvement curve is noticeably steeper than over $10 grand.
What i like about the video is the message that in a way protects consumers or give them sound advice on how they spend their precious dollars and still appreciate the hobby of listening to music or watching videos. It serves as a check on what sound investment is all about and convincing oneself that good audio system doesn't mean 5 figures.
You get it. Thank you for your comment!
@Andrew Robinson I am a musician with live audio gear, amplifiers, instruments, synths and (most connected to you) recording gear. I am a member of a studio which has both digital and analog based recording - meaning I have access to an 8 track reel to reel, a whole range of mic preamps, compressors, high end DA converters, close field monitors and room monitors. Obviously by design, a studio is a place meant for listening. Interestingly I am finding that the price of high end consumer grade audio and professional grade recording/listening equipment are similar. In fact, I would say in many cases, professional grade recording gear, even really good vintage stuff, can be less expensive. I find it a little ironic that the "out" gear may be more money than the "in" gear was and I would love to see a segment on the parallels between these two worlds.
What are the differences? Could you find something audiophile grade from Sweetwater or on Reverb that’s meant more for professional use and compare it with audiophile grade stuff? Headphones are a common parallel. Most musicians use over ear headphones in the studio that were probably 200$ new. If we rock in ear monitors, we usually spend 200 to 1500 on those, for ultra custom stuff, maybe up to 5,000. Westone or Shure are good brand references for in ear. Monitors are another. Almost every studio has these Yamaha monitors (HS8s or CLA10s) and they are used extensively. Genelic (8050B) seem to be common. A good studio will also have hifi loudspeakers as well. Mic preamps (that essentially do the work of a preamp and are then sent to a Digital or Analog source) would also be interesting. I fundamentally understand the differences between close field studio monitors and loudspeakers that are meant to fill a room but would like to hear your thoughts.
Lastly, live audio. Here is where it really gets ironic for me. A lot of audiophiles talk about replicating live sound, a live room, a live concert. The reality is that most medium venues at best operate with Midas preamps, usually an X32-Mix digital mixer. QSC is a popular PA brand. Most medium sized live shows are being broadcast through QSC K12 powered speakers or JBL PRX815s and some type of powered subwoofer. At best the band is using an in ear system that decreases monitor feed so headroom is increased and the bleed is through any instrument that’s acoustically heard or amplified outside of the main PA. So how good would QSC K12s be if used outside of live duty?
Sorry for the long one but as a lifelong musician who is NOT an audiophile but does appreciate high end audio when heard and who has been in studios where groups like The Doors, Prince and Zeppelin have tracked, I want to understand the differences between these worlds. Thanks!
25 years ago, I spent 2 hours in a private showroom comparing 12 speakers, ranging from 150$ to 11,000$. Somewhere in the middle the 800$ speaker sounded ok. The 11K JBL tower was excellent. The 150$ Mordount-Short was the best rocker; and the 350$ Castle was the best for Classical and Jazz. All of these other speakers, that represented the hi-fi range of their day, were duds. It is similarly rare to find a good restaurant to eat in Paris, the great restaurant capital of the world.
Paris is the worst place in France to find good restaurants at reasonable prices ( and I'm French).
@@Jeff-ub4lr I had success with 1 out of the 6 restaurants that I tried in one week in Paris. We would end up with a baguette and cantale back in the apartment to make up for dinner.
@@gokhanersan8561 Next time, get lost in the french country and you will have very nice surprises with the food. As a typical French, for me Paris is not France....
@@Jeff-ub4lr Will do. The crepe + Coke Zero that I had on the Paris street was a fantastic experience, though. The city was so awesome even tough steak tasted tender:)
I like that Andrew addressed the age issue. I go to shows like Axpona and it is almost exclusively old guys. I am 61 and just had my hearing checked. I got nothing above 9kHz. I used to hear the fly back transformers on CRTs at 15.6kHz but no more. It actually makes thing easier. I stopped worrying about frequency response and just listen to the music. Besides there is not much acoustic music above 5kHz. I also agree with Andrew that you are the only one who has to like your system. I am a recovering audiophile!
@@gotham61lol. Not for many years.
I think one of the ways to hear a difference is by choice of music. if you love pop music that is highly compressed it might even sound better on a lower end system. If you don‘t know what to listen for it will maybe all sound the same. For me many many years ago the first distinction that I learned to appreciate was a proper soundstage. I used to not understand what people were talking about because I could not hear it in any of the systems I had heard. Once I heard a better system with good stage and instrument separation I could never go back. I don‘t have to spend a fortune to get that. But you might be able to hear a difference once somebody points it out to you. It‘s like the tiny scratch on your car you never saw. Once you have seen it it‘s the first thing you see.
I recently got $100 speakers I'm blown away by. I played a number of songs that audiophiles say will really stress a system and make any flaws very apparent. I'm no audiophiles, but I don't notice any of these flaws with these speakers. I've spent a couple thousand in the past on systems, not getting sound this clear & crisp.
I have been using the original Quad 11L bookshelf speakers for around 20 years connected to a Cambridge CXA61. The speakers cost £330 or around $400 US. I recently replaced them with the KEF LS50. The LS50 lasted a few weeks and I have gone back to the 20 year old Quads. It left me thinking that either the KEF’s are over rated or I have some really special old speakers.
The easiest solution technology wise for speakers, is just to by yesterdays best. Almost all the speakers in my home setup are from 1990. It took a while to collect them but the cost was low and performance is amazing!
I wish people would pursue this- i'm looking at a pair of Vandersteen 2ce's mint and he's asking 350. Today's price- $2850. A great way to get a ton of bang for your buck. And unlike DACs and digital gear, speakers and amp tech hasn't advanced in any meaningful way in decades. (Class D amps excepted.)
It’s funny that £500-750 per component is the sweet spot for me and has been for a number of years. I settled in this zone after hearing some £5-10k systems that didn’t sound any different to mine. One actually sounded worse and it was around £25k worth of Naim and Kef gear on a hifi shop.
I am a big fan of minimalist living. Own as little as possible. I chose an amplifier from Cambridge audio that had a decent DAC and had two optical inputs for a Chromecast audio and a tv. I eliminated the need for an external DAC or a streamer that is visible and requires it’s own shelf in a rack.
I like to look at music as my hobby rather than hifi😎
Lex....keep in mind, you heard those other more expensive setups in different rooms than you listen to your system in. And for what it is worth Naim and KEF tend to be on the thin, brighter sounding end of the spectrum. (both over priced in my opinion) To use them together isnt a good match. System synergy is very important
Great video mate.
I built my last system out of used gear.
I went for used 2 Sony tan55es amps, running in bridged mono mode which I paid about £380 for the pair. Fantastic sounding, super transparent and low noise amps.
I bought a used pair of tannoy dc6t tower speakers for £300 in mint condition (they were 1200 on their release)
The system was minimal, just a laptop with a streaming service going through a JDS lab ODAC which was around £100.
And to my ears it sounded open and incredibly alive, I couldn't hear anything on my mates £8000 linn set up which was immediately better than mine.
On the subject have a look at a forum called audiosciencereview, this guy does scientific measurement on as many DACs as possible, and there's many in the 100-400 range that are in the tope 25th percentile. With crazy DACs that cost 1000's
the other great hi-end 'cheat' people don't think about is getting a very good dac and a great pair of headphones. with high quality sources, that will give you sound quality that would cost $5-10k in a speaker/amp setup for under a thousand bucks.
Great video, thanks Andrew. As an ex-dealer, reviewer, designer and enthusiast, I love all things that bring us closer to music. In my experience, there are some advantages to be found in finding an audio 'destination'. That is, sometimes time spent at a high end dealer or with a friend with a great system can help you develop a pathway that might reduce taking mis-steps. A good dealer might help you over time get to that system. The end result can be a magnificent system that is a pleasure to use and own, achieved in a cost effective way. Sometimes people spend more over time on middling gear - chopping and changing - than they might by knowing where they are going in the first place.
I would also add a fourth element of how you mix and match your equipment. A cheaper system that pairs well might sound better than just say an expensive system that is poorly put together. A first hand example would be that i listened to an expensive pair of planar magnetic headphones on an expensive tube amp and it sounded like trash, not because the products are trash, but because they don't match to where a cheaper pair of neodymium headphones sounded like butter on the same tube amp. Pairings are as or more important than the $$$ spent
Interesting - age comments ...
I still amp up:
Life in the Fast Lane
Power of Love
All of Bach's Brandenburgs
Beethoven's 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9th Symphonies
Big Band jazz
Sinatra
Amp is down for others ...
lol😄
Am 77 and, so far, everything is in perfect, eager, working order !
Still working and renovating home, too, so need music while renovating.
Like lower volumes of sound when writing scripts, short stories, lyrics.
Enjoy your videos a lot.
Thanks to both of you for your effort.
Have a nice day.
Am rotten at guitar and piano but play them anyway.
"Butter Zone" just officially entered my vocabulary. Awesome video! I am so very glad you gave your thoughts on this!! This is the difference between a knowledgeable reviewer and a salesperson. Sales people will never answer this question in such a straightforward way, if at all.
There is, of course, more to the appeal of stereo and AV gear than solely sound quality (appearance, durability, convenience, technological novelty), and for many people that's worth spending some money on.
As for getting old and not being able to hear a difference, it's not unreasonable to think better gear is in order to compensate for impaired hearing. That's really just a philosophy about what to do about the inevitable decline in hearing sensitivity. I think the only reason to put less attention into audio gear would be diminished interest in listening, rather than diminished hearing ability. Also, probably what holds most people back in terms of hearing subtle differences in sound is training and experience rather than strict frequency sensitivity. Most music over the last century was recorded and mixed by people over 40, many over 50. So unless you're really close to completely deaf I don't think you have to give up on good sound and just relegate yourself to squeaky little speakers. I guess that's probably a subject that can be addressed in a different video completely some day.
I'm sticking with my used $2500 AMP and old Pre-Amp. Looking at what speakers are great currently.
The most important is, do you have the ears to hear and appreciate it? Then it doesn’t matter how cheap or expensive the set up 👍🏽😊
I liked that the thumbnail showed the cherry version of the Paradigm Monitor Series 7 speakers. I have the Monitor 11's v7 in cherry finish :)
Cheers Andrew.. really enjoyed the video & this is how younger people like to hear about HIFI.. so that they know which way to go & how to get into this hobby..
Great answers all around especially with the DAC portion of the video. I find it hilarious when old men with thick white hairs sticking out of their ear canals are worrying about whether their speaker cables are high enough off the ground for optimal audio performance.
I'm running all Parasound pre-amps, power amps, that I would call the middle range, as far as price points. And what I like most with the A21 is its Class A output up to 8-10w. Its just superb and I didn't have to spend into the 10s of 1000s to get there. And if I do crank it up for a movie, those power amps aren't going fall short of the task, so a benefit compared to an under powered AVR. To be fair, some AVRs do have enough power to do the trick.
Enjoyed the video. As far as age and hearing for audiophiles I only have one comment to make on that:
HEY....I resemble that remark!!!
I like your style and the information you share here.
From my experience my requirements in quality of a system is related to how much live music I listen. Especially in the realm of acustic music - classical, jazz, as an exemple. When I was going to live concerts very often, I was starting to feel the limitations of my system (I invested about 15000€ in it) in reproduction of music. When I just listen to my system for months without going to a concert hall, the same system is a totally satisfying performer... There is the tricky thing : I'm not the same me every time. :-)
I guess that if I didn't had my live experience background, I would enjoy a lot of less then 1000€ systems that are on the market nowadays...
What he is saying here ..In my opinion...applies to any mass produced product. Once you get past "average or mid range"..the cost goes up exponentially for small improvements
Yes. This is especially true with good soundbars. Sonos is not good.
You're truly amazing, Andrew. Ive listened to this video more than 3 times.
Wow, thank you!
90% of audio enthusiasts forgets room treatment all together... most of the rest quickly realise room treatment usually happens inversely proportional to WAF values.
Totally right...
I paid $750 for a Denon AVR-2500 Receiver in the early nineties. Just bought one of the tiny Fosi Audio amps for $70 and can tell no difference when playing CD’s on my $750 Adcom GDC-750 player. Sure if I had a $100 CD player from today, it’d be the same case. Just amazing what is available today.
No its nooot !!! This guy talks bullllshit if you paid 750 for a denon in the 90s its today compareable to amps at least in the same price range !! Bro you wanna say you,re denon is same like a amp for 100.- in 2022 ??????????
Outstanding video and I agree 100%
Can totally agree.....I'm an older listener, a senior actually, and I bought a B&W home theatre system around 2002 which I paid around 2700 bucks back then. Well to make a long story short I have pissed away money on "later" technology at the behest of a brother who is retired from the industry. He told me how much technology has improved. So I have bought Pioneer, ELAC, Klipsch, chasing this improvement which just hasn't panned out. I also bought a used pair of B&W 685 S2 used on E
bay. They sounded kind of small compared to my DM600 series from 2002. I had a hard time with them until I put them in my bedroom with Emotiva PT-100 pre-amp and bas-x150 amp.This is all entry level stuff from these manufacturers. In my bedroom this system just came alive and blew me away. I can't imagine anything that's going to top it by much. I watch all these glowing reviews from all these reviewers and it's easy to get sucked in to thinking that one product is going to fix your system and fix you. I'm pretty much done with it as I don't think I'm going to get much better by throwing money at it.
You likely will never get anywhere meaningful by simply "throwing money" at any issue. Thanks for watching!
Hey Andrew another great episode. i have noticed that there are some great deals on speakers now, great bang for buck. ie. ELAC, PSB, Aperion. I totally agree with you that there is some great stuff out there for not that much money. Using my 1991 Esoteric CD-Z500 player as transport, and a 350 dollar Cambridge Audio up-sampling DAC I am getting some great sound. Little price tag for a great DAC.
For me pushing the limit is 3,000 usd for a set of speakers, after that speakers will not sound any better, just the finish of the speaker will be better, but not the sound quaity!
I had the B&W 803 D3. I compared them to a new set of Boston Acoustics M350 and Tektons double impact and the sound quality was pretty much the same, just the finish and aesthetics of the B&W was better.
Another speaker that I consider giant killers are the Elacs, Magnepans and the old Boston Acoustics Lynnfield series VR series speakers.
Thank you for the sanity
Thank you for watching!
Like your straight shooter approach. And this video was really a prime example of your substance over style perspective. So I have a question about turntables. Between all the specialization on cartridges, tonearms, motors, etc., etc. (you know this better than the rest of us) what’s a decent price to pay for an audiophile turntable before the law of diminishing returns kicks in? And thanks for sharing your thoughts 👍
Correct, the KEF motto back in the 70s used to be: "If you can't hear the difference, don't pay the difference." Class A amps are very fickle, because in theory they can put pure (zero frequency) DC current into the speaker coils, and burn them out. Not to mention the circuit balance and the zero crossover distortion challenge. Big dollars to correct those challenges.
Completely agree! Great talking points, as always. Keep up the great work! 😉👍
Binge watching your videos now. Good stuff! Just wanna point out that two DAC units with the same DAC chip can sound VERY different, depending on the other components in the unit.
@@jeeefthegreat7555 Well, only if you have good ears and good speakers/headphones, and you play high quality media.
Diminishing returns = the S-curve.
Old ears but experienced brains (references) works fine for me.
The ear/brain combo is hard to define in numbers.
Maybe perception (memory) fill in the blanks or connect the dots. (frequencies)
I am 81. In the 60's, i purchased a three way system and built self designed speaker boxes to hold them. They still work well but I can't use them. I took the speakers and crossovers out of the boxes and am storing them. Is there a market for them?
AGE: My hearing is shot from 40 years of abuse. While I can't mix with any accuracy anymore, music playback sounds pretty much the same to me as it did when I was young. Can't take the loud SPL anymore and while I know there are holes in my auditory response, the experience is just as enjoyable. It's kind of like life-- It's not about the adrenaline rush of riding a constant roller coaster. (JBL) But, realizing the subtleties and richness I missed when I was young. (classical music on my Castle Winchester's) I still kayak and climb the odd mountain... and crank out the volume for short periods on my JBL 4315 legacy studio monitors.
Dac's most important point is how it is designed a good design will do the job.
This. If a manufacturer purely relies on the DAC chip itself to do all the work then he might be right with his statement. But most high end DACs and streamers heavily modify the reference design to get more accurate clocks and more stable reference voltage and use multiple Chips per channel etc. And these things matter a lot in fact. You barley see a high end digital source just putting the DAC chip as it is and using the manufacturers reference circuit. This is something most mid tier streamer (amps) do. You can't simply say "oh this 700 $ streaming amp uses the same AKM 4497eq that is also found in Linn's Katalyst Design. It's probably already very close in sound." That's like saying "oh this B&W 606 uses the "same" continuum woofer found on the 805. It's probably almost as good."
I am the guy (or maybe one of several) who wrote to you with the question about diminishing returns, so thank you for addressing that. I will say right off the bat that you gave me a very valuable insight. You've already had a lot of influence on me and my choice of gear. I went ahead and got my name on a waiting list for a pair of Magnepan LRS, which are power-hungry.
But this same podcast open up a whole new question, what's this about class D amps that punch above their weight? So I went back through your list of videos and watched the one about the Crown XLR 1002. I was ready to pull the trigger on that one but then I realized I don't know how to use my streaming services with the Crown. Is it possible?
I forgot to comment, my brother in law bought a pair of La Scala in 1986 for $1,600. They still sound awesome!
I also think a great factor of this is that some of us live as heavy consumers. We justify ourselves in why we need to get the next biggest thing, companies will throw fancy jargon, features we may never need, and of course the more sleeker, sexier look of the unit that drives us in. These factors are what tricks our mind into thinking that the product will inherently sound better than something of an older age.
Good video Andrew. A good primer for those who are new to the hobby or a reminder for those who wonder why their upgradeitis never seems to get any where.
When I was 21 I befriended an old audio guy and former salesman. Armed me as a shopper when i bought my first stereo. 28 years later I'm still running my celestion trinity speaker system. On a pawnshop denon receiver. Sounds great. Still.
What you’ll notice is the high end gear sounds great at louder volumes, while when played at conversation volume sound the same as mid range gear.
That's usually the main difference. That's why picking high end gear while living in a small apartment just makes no sense, because you won't be playing loud anyway. And if you do play loud, your neighbours will get mad at you. Only buy high end gear if you live in a house with lots of space.
@@wuzumaki so how much space are we talk about?
When it comes to an AV receiver, is it better to buy say a high end model from 2017, or would a brand new 2021 mid range model perform better? Let's use Denon for example, used x3300(2017) or brand new 970h(2021)?
Thanks for posting this vid - I'll give you tons and tons of credit, talk about a sensitive subject ! Tougher yet to generalize about it, but again, plenty of credit to you! The issue for me is a person declaring: "this sounds better than that" - stupid though it may seem, the word "sound" needs to be defined before one can say "this is better than that" - - for example, my 2.1 sound system for my computer (which does include a decent sound card) "sounds" excellent, but even including the sound card I doubt I put more than 400 or 450 bucks into it - - on the other hand, I'm fortunate enough to have what most would consider a reference or at least an entrance level reference audiophile system - it too "sounds" excellent - - diminishing returns? MOST DEFINITELY! But what are we talking about? Yeah, to me they both "sound" excellent and I do get fully involved in music using either system, but obviously the differences are huge. So unless there's an agreement of the criteria defining "sound" then I think it's really tough to have an honest discussion about where to draw the line when investing in audio gear. Thanks again for posting.
You can use this video as a "Sweet Spot" reference. From there you can make videos about a budget HiFi system, mid HiFi system and a higher-end HiFi system of that sweet spot of yours. That would be very helpful to us who don't have enough time or the money to try all these different parts, before we make a conclusion.
Fast Forward to today, and you cannot afford any of it! Glad I got what I got a few years ago!
Thanks for your openness and honesty so many push overpriced as the way to enjoy your listening experience. Being 50% deaf in one ear means my listening experience is to how I like what I like and most others can't understand what I call good sound. So yes I like what I've built and it suits what I need to enjoy my Listening Experience. Thanks Andrew.
The market is certainly not geared towards you; so congratulations on finding something that makes you happy. I would like Andrew to do a video on hearing loss with age. I walked into a room at Bristol hifi show with an old chap rocking out to some Elton John, which to me was, at an ear piercing volume with painful sibilance.
Love your reasonable, intimate approach.
Fabulous video. Of course it’s your opinion - that’s why we tune in Andrew!
Appreciate it!
I still have my 80's JBL L112's and they still sound sweet with modern 2023 audio equipment. My main listening speakers. No plan to ever sell them until I croak.
L112 - too cool for words, always wanted to hear them.... since the day they were introduced
Thanks for raising the question of impact of age-related HF hearing loss on the law of diminishing returns. Do you think it might apply to choosing between standard and Hi Res streaming services?
It might. Only one way for you to find out. :)
The source is the thing that does the biggest change on the signal, not the DAC. But the reason why most people don't realise this, is because the source standard is very low. And on top of that, then a lot of users go for the low end models, and then on top of that they set it up in a way that is not close to optimal. Hence making most people solve their problems with a DAC. (which is actually more of a way of compensating)
So in a way Andrew is still right.
Synergy is the keyword!
Great one Andrew, always very honest.. It's all a matter of taste...
When it comes to sound, what one likes versus what they don't is extremely personal. Thanks for watching!
@@andrewrobinsonreviews i started folowing your channel recently when i found the crown amplifier review, the simple principle of reviewing a pro grade class d amplifier for home use was out of the box in thinking, something we don't regulary see in reviewers of audiophile gear...
By the way i really enjoyed the comment on expensive transports connected to expensive dacs, what is really the point?? Congrats to you and your channel, i am a fan.
"Let's face it, in 2020 we live in an era where everything is awesome all the time."
- Andrew Robinson, February 10th, 2020.
Sigh.
Can you give examples of these $500 systems sounding as good as $4,000 systems? Two systems with the same exact DAC chip can still sound vastly different, power delivery, noise isolation, capacitor quality make huge difference. Diminishing return is extremely subjective in this regard. I just got my dream system, Sonus Faber Olympica 3 speakers powered by McIntosh MC452, to my ears it sounds multiple times better than a $500 or even $5,000.
Here is an awesome combo for entry level hifi: Yamaha AS301 integrated amp, KEF Q150's, Sunfire Dynamic Sub 8
My favorite test of equipment to prove you don't have to spend stupid amounts of money to have world class sound was of record players. I will let you search it out. But in the end it may as well be a guessing game on which unit was the best. This was done with a 70's unit coasting in todays money $600 and one that was 3/4 of a million dollars. There are downloads to listen to the music of both and you can a/b them on your own system.