I love projects like this. Nothing special, just a giant pile of engineered dirt in a metal can. That actually has a chance to get built. I look forward to living in a world assisted by these devices and never knowing they're there.
@@andrewkaiser7203 looks like the aluminum ion batteries will be used for a different task but are evolving in a similar way. Competing with lithium isn't necessarily about volume. It's about the discharge rate. If it can compete with the discharge rate I think the researchers may have something.
I think this is the way forward - minimal impact on existing technologies (district heating, industrial processes), minimal footprint, relatively low cost and rapid return of investment for installer. And no break-neck new technology/process/chemical involved. And they even managed to squeeze AI in, which increases the chance for investors to step in :) Congrats on the video - this time a bit more optimistic than usual :)
I'm not sure if you have any experience in this field but you're basically spot on. AI is the only real buzzword but ML is basically AI and definitely being used appropriately from what is described. Anyways, the powers that be will keep this under tight security due to high level IP but any rich ingenious person can replicate with amazing results.
@@ValidatingUsername The problem with ML is that you might need to train it again for new deployment - as the model created is calculated on the inputs you get and those will be different. The other option is to set your model once and then just use the resulting pattern in the device ;) But that's then just scalar model, not ML :) While I find the idea of using constant learning and adjusting in these devices interesting, I don't think it's that usable or makes such a difference - the hysteresis of the system will prevent you to make some fast changes and prediction model for surrounding environment/target will have too many parameters. So yeah, I believe this is another case where the "AI" is used only as a buzz-word.
@@rklauco I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just a good old fuzzy logic optimisation system tbh. Calling it AI is kind of a flashback if that’s true! (And any neural network training may end up defacto reimplementing fuzzy logic for the reasons you mention!)
The amusing thought that crossed my mind was: I hope this Rondo Energy's news hit the fossil fuel industries like a ton of bricks (and hopefully a hell of a lot more.)
Pedantic point The original Thermos®️ flask was not made of stainless steel, instead the drink was contained in a double thin walled glass flask, with the glass silvered on the vacuum facing interior walls. The drink didn't taste metallic any more than it would out of a glass teapot. Thermos®️ is a brand name, but the inventor of those flasks was called Dewar, who invented them to keep things cold, not hot. Did like Liquid Oxygen. In cryo lands three are still called "Dewar flasks" and the physics labs at Manchester have some in all sizes from a fraction of a litre to ones on wheels about 1.6m tall. The problem with a Dewar flash for outdoor activities is that they are fragile: drop them from less than a meter into rock and the glass shatters. That's why Thermos® went over to stainless steel for their top of the range flasks, and nowadays most hour drink flasks are stainless steel.
@nopenope1 I have dropped my current phone over a dozen times in the last 2 years and it's fine. I don't even have a screen protector on it. When I was a child, I had thermos and dropping them from any height broke the contents. I think a gorilla glass thermos would not break because the outer plastic shell would protect it from direct impact buy a rock or pebble and the gorilla glass is more than strong enough to survive the g-forces. And my phone is not a particularly expensive phone.
The city of Halle, also Germany, has been operating their 50 million liter thermos bottle since 2018. It seems to be doing well and is an unbeatably cheap way to store energy. I imagine replacing the old power plant with a heat pump would be a fantastic way to decarbonize and increase flexibility on the demand side of the electricity grid.
Yeah, I'm stuck with the question what heat pump is envisioned for this kind of use? Because let's be honest, the water battery is by far the best heat battery because you get so much energy content per kelvin added and under the philosophy of efficient heat pumping you preferably don't want to climb that kelvin ladder too high anyway ... but one is tempted to use the water battery at least all the way to 100 °C because otherwise the energy density turns out to be meagre after all... but then, what heat pump to use? Typical consumer heat pumps are designed to pump to 50 or 60 °C...
@@5th_decile Industrial heat pumps typically work at 80°, but designs with higher temperatures are in development according to various projects that can be found online. Even water itself is considered as a working fluid. Thinking about it, looking into the new developments of high temperature heat pumps could be an interesting topic for this channel. Without a doubt, a lot will happen in this field with increasing electrification.
I guess temperature vs pressure is a limiting factor in using water as the storage medium, if you want to go beyond the boiling point you have to contain the pressure, with all the associated costs and dangers (giant pressure bomb in the centre of a city) whereas the brick medium can take a much higher temperature without any of these issues. Of course, the actual energy stored per kg of medium will depend on the specific heat capacity for each but not having to consider pressure build up suggests a win for brick in my mind. Of course also have to consider the energy conversion at either end (in and out). Probably simpler for water compared to brick. Would be an interesting cost/benefit analysis.
The Saale river could supply heat that is then condensed with a large heat pump - like it's done in Esbjerg. As cities in Germany must make plans for heat networks until 2028 they may pretty well be considering this already.
It's not about the design but about refrigerant. If liquid turns to gas at 60deg c then you can't heat water up to more than 60 deg c. Moreover the hotter the water is the less efficient whole system is. If you want to heat up water to 55 deg c, cop drops from 3.5 to 2.5 or less depending on external temperature. Also refrigerants are potent ghg gases. We basically should stop using heat pumps as soon as possible, but there is no good alternative at the moment. We have to little energy to have brick batteries in homes and industry.
Reminds me of the refractory brick 'storage heaters' my parents had installed in the 1960's. They took advantage of cheap overnight 'off peak' electricity to heat up, and slowly release the heat throughout the day. They were the best heating system, better than radiators-worth of central heating on the walls, and they looked pretty stylish for the time. Even for these times I suspect.
They were hot all day when you were out, and had cooled down by evening when you were in. We need domestic storage heaters which are bigger and better insulated than the old ones.
We think we look pretty stylish too =] But yes this is principally the same exact thing -- but we charge and discharge simultaneously so we deliver heat 24/7.
I currently use one. It's a dump load for my off grid PV system. Heats during the day when it's sunny and releases the heat in the evening. Works a treat.
yup. and the fact that we will keep innovating, refining and making other storage options cheaper and more efficient means that eventually (who knows how soon, but hopefully within a decade or so) we can store all excess energy generated by solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal for use during the off-peak generation times. Combine this with more efficient usage from appliances, and smarter usage behaviors, and we can FINALLY be rid of fossil fuels for energy generation AND transportation. Sure, we will never be fully divested of petroleum products as they are just too damned versatile for many of the things we depend on, but we can finally stop BURNING them. of course this will make the petrosexuals extremely angry.
Also worth checking out the startup Antora which does a similar thing but with carbon blocks, which actually glow very brightly when heated, so they also have PV integrated into the system to generate electricity, when/if that's needed more than or in addition to industrial heat.
We love what Antora is doing and wish them the best, there's a lot of market to cover! Ultimately, we think our materials are the safest to use for heat storage, and have been proven to work in the steel industry for hundreds of years already.
That's a hot topic (pun intended 🙂) indeed. Nice to see that the industry is scaling fast. This kind of technology can't come soon enough. As a matter of fact it should have been there some time ago but better late than never.
If I’m not mistaken, the air and temperature control system would be totally doable by a fuzzy logic system. (Such as you’d find in a sensor drier, or some dishwashers.) Which was hyped as AI in the 90s but quickly became just another mundane thing instead of “AI”, which is a moving target. Unless Rondo are really using neural networks for some reason, and even if they are they could well be reimplementing fuzzy logic if the network is analysed, it’s kind of funny to see it getting called AI again! I guess it’s somewhat appropriate, the 90s are in fashion again in some other ways 😉
Thanks Dave. Another positive solution that underlines the scale of effort underway to solve our energy transition. Reasons to be cheerful as Mr Dury used to say.
Lets not forget that energy conversion is needed (from heat to electricity) for use for stuff other than a specific powerplant that needs heat. This can drop the efficiency.
Your point is more widely valid than just electricity Conversion of heart into mechanical energy is the inefficient thing: so this is a useful way to store heat where heat is needed later, but not so good when wanting mechanical energy. That includes turning a generator to make electricity.
Our combined heat and power (CHP) efficiency is around 95%. Most of our early customers, however, are simply looking for steam to replace their existing gas-fired boilers.
Dave, this is super encouraging and needs to be massively scaled!! I live in Canada where we need to massively scale up the geo-thermal via closed loop use of old drilled gas and oil holes where pressurized water can be pumped into these shafts to be super-heated and returned to the surface to turn turbines for power generation. Would love to see an update for this and how it can be integrated into heat storage as well.
Yes, old, time tested ideas that use simple ingredients are the solution. The thermos is such a brilliant container, I am so glad to see that there is lots of effort going into making better use of thermoses for energy storage
I didn't realise this until I started to look at who was producing thermal storage systems in the UK; these is a company called Caldera in the UK that is using vacuum as the insulation!
My fave part about the heat storage battery is it’s literally just a kiln, and the input/output system uses known and mature industrial principles, math and technology. The innovation is the brick design, but 70s hot air passive solar house builds used beds of 3” cobbles in the crawlspace for the same reason - predictable heat release and turbulent airflow with minimal stagnation. These need to be slapped onto every single steam generator power plant on earth already in service, and two on every solar and wind installation.
@@mihir2781 The efficiency of resistance heaters is pretty darn close to 100%, mostly switching and line loss, but heat capacity of the materials drives input/output efficiency. Water can hold the most BTU per pound (other than obscure chemistry or phase change answers) of any storage medium, but only to the PV=NRT limits of water and container. Once you get up to a thousand degrees, efficiency is less important than stability, safety and ease of use. Dumping excess wind, sun heat or PV wattage overboard is zero efficiency, so any amount of storage between demand cycles to level the grid is an improvement that makes wind and solar a viable solution and not a joke for trump rallies.
Brexit? Creativity flounders in rightwing environments. The left charges into the future, the right retreats into the past. Tell me if this isn't true.
Wow. Hot stuff indeed. One I learned about in my secondary school, some... lemme see... yeah, over forty years ago. Regenerators and recuperators, they are called in the trade. Also, accumulative electric heaters, using special ceramic "bricks" heated by cheaper electricity during off-peak hours (aka "lower tariff" hours) have been around for even longer than that, so yeah, hot stuff. Like, really hot. Beam me up, Scotty... ;-)
Three questions that I think should be evalueted. 1. Power loss in distribution/maximum distance covered. 2. Power loss for transforming this into electricity. 3. Energy wasted and enviornmental impact during the fabrication and implamentation of this.
1. Would be a local consideration and very geographically dependant - so I can't really speak to this. 2. You're probably looking at 100% efficiency or near it for converting electricity to heat, but 30-40% for converting heat back to electricity; however most thermal energy storage companies argue that round-trip efficiency can be a misleading metric when considering storage solutions; citing that while a grid may only be able to recover 30-40% of stored energy, the cost of storage and recovery will cost around 10% of what it costs to store the same amount of energy in a lithium-ion battery. Thus, even though the round-trip efficiency is much lower, the cost per joule of reclaimed energy is still better value due to the low capital cost of thermal storage. Whether this is viable will depend on the cost and availability of off-peak electricity. 3. Most thermal storage companies are looking to use materials that are either readily available, abundant and recyclable - because there are no emissions in the use-cycle of the bricks they can be reclaimed after the 30-40 year lifespan and recycled into new bricks at a rate of almost 100%.
It's good. In spite of all the bad stuff happening we have to keep pushing on with these positive measures and you never know we might just climb out of this hole we've got ourselves in.
Re: "10% of the hot water requirements of the entire city of Berlin" This! It is utterly insane that things like district heating working off of renewable resources or (at the bare minimum) taking advantage of waste heat from industrial/electrical production processes. You deserve this. I deserve this. *We* deserve this! This HAS to happen on the municipal level. That's the scale where you can make a difference. So do it! Call your local representatives and make a fuss about this. Start with convincing your neighbours that this is doable. It's expensive up front because it's infrastructure but that's not the point. The point is that we can pay for this now and have the infrastructure in place to minimize the constantly creepy costs associated with climate change as well as have a measurable reduction in greenhouse gas emissions locally. Do it. You. Yourself. Make a fuss! Be loud! Demand answers and solutions! Your siblings deserve it, your kids deserve it. Do it for yourself and ourselves. We need you. Let's GO! WOO!
Loving that so many different people are coming up with different ways of storing energy. No one storage type will be the holy grail as each has its best use applications. Therefore the more types of storage come on line the better we will be.
More people should know about the Drake Landing Solar Community in Okotoks, Alberta Canada. Solar energy captured in the summer to heat homes in the winter.
Looks useful for very high temperature air. The specs for the RBH100 reveal an energy density similar to water. 13m x 10m x 10m for 100MWh is (I think) 280J/cm^3, the same as heating water by just under 70 degrees. For something like district heating the water tank approach will be simpler and probably cheaper. Danish seasonal pit storage costs are available online (perhaps 35 EUR/m^3), and as the pit scales the losses are reduced (energy stored goes with the cube but the area of the tank is the square). In that case charging with solar thermal collectors or heat pumps will make more sense than burning the electricity.
Solar thermal is the answer. I've been saying it for years. I'm prototyping a solar thermal platform right now. I will continue this relentless pursuit until I have a viable product for the market. It is proving the most challenging project I have ever endeavored to complete. I hope others will realize the potential along the way.
The falling cost of wind and solar PV has made it very challenging for solar thermal to compete. Also, in our market, we're targeting facilities where energy density is critical because they don't have excess land, so a large solar thermal plant would not be viable onsite. Also, when you transport heat over distances, you lose a lot of it, so it's important your heat generation is located close to where it's being consumed, which is why our energy dense batteries fit right onsite much like a gas-boiler does.
My father was part of the design team at Bethlehem Steel for (what was then in 1962) the largest integrated steel making facility in the U.S. called Burns Harbor located in Michigan City, IN. They developed and implemented many innovations in the capture and re-use of waste heat in various parts of the operation. We visited that facility in 2019 for what was the 55th anniversary of rolling the first piece of plate steel off of the mill in 1964. The plant is still in operation today as part of the Cleveland-Cliffs company (stock ticker CLF). For anyone who has never seen the process of making iron in a blast furnace and then converting it to steel in a basic oxygen furnace, and then turning it into basic steel products such as steel plate, hot rolled coil, nickel plated products, etc., it is truly awe-inspiring in scale. Unfortunately, it is also a major carbon generator, something the industry has been working to improve for decades.
Very encouraging. As a ceramicist, I felt it necessary to say that the Rondo system is far from CO2 free in production unless the manufacture of the "Bricks" is conducted with renewable energy. I'm sure they've done their calculations correctly but the manufacture of large ceramic objects that can withstand 1500 degrees is usually very heavy on energy input. I don't know of a concrete product that could withstand repeated exposure to such high temperatures. As regards the degradation of the units, I can see that the ceramics (if that's what they call it) would not degrade through the expansion and contraction as long as the temperature is carefully manage to avoid the major physical change in silica (quartz inversion) at 573°C, notorious for destroying ceramic objects, particularly bulky objects like these. The electric elements will suffer degradation far sooner than the brick. I still think it's a serious move in the right direction and the promis of large scale production is really positive.
One of the nice things about this system is that it would have a lot of use in de-carbonization of concrete and refractory brick manufacture. If you put the plants in places like CA where there's a huge renewable energy surplus during the day, you can charge up the bricks. Even if the cement plant is using fossil fuels for its primary heating, they could swap over to the high temp air to reduce or eliminate emissions during the middle of the day. If they were using electrical heating for the thermal input, they could get even greater savings, as the plant could run off the grid during cheap renewable power periods and off the bricks during the night. Steel and other metal refining could see large carbon/cost savings with this tech with fairly modest changes to their infrastructure. As for the electrical elements breaking down, I wonder if these bricks are microwave absorbers. If so, it might be possible to simply use magnetrons to heat them up through microwave transparent windows and keep all of the electronic components at more modest temperatures.
The best is not to transform the energy, i.e. heat to movement. The problem is that storing heat for winter needs a lot of time, half a year. The lava from volcanos keeps hot during even years, only with the insulation of the same lava crust and because of the big size of the deposit. What about huge underground deposits of molten salts in order to take advantage or latent heat too? Or perhaps that is very expensive for large masses and then it is better to keep it in bricks, rocks, etc.?
Back in the fortys mum used to put house bricks in the oven heated by the fire in the front room and wrapped in newspaper for hot water bottles,how forward thinking was that.
I am honored to be the same species as you sir, thank you for all you efforts to bring us good and bad news related to this global challenge we're facing. If you by chance find projects that explicitly require money for us to invest/donate, I'd personally be extremely thrilled! Thank you very much!
blast furnaces for steelmaking have used the stacked brick method of heat exchange since forever. they have 3 separate blockhouses . the superhot gasses coming from the furnace go through 2 of the brickhouses while incoming air is heated by one. they alternate like every 20 minutes or so
You remain my favorite You Tube author. This is another excellent presentation and gives me great hope that we can reach the goal of eventually reversing the excess carbon load in our atmosphere. I have one question. I used to take care of burn patients so I immediately thought of all the industrial accidents that brought people to our units. Super heated air and water can leak. Large tanks can fail. The great beer flood in London a few centuries ago comes to mind. What advancements have been made to safe guard all the pipes and fittings and valves? And, given what we are seeing in Ukraine and Gaza, shouldn't we be doing as much as possible to decentralize our energy grids? Thank you.
Essentially we are manually creating geothermal energy for a storage. Seems like we could combine it with direct geothermal energy and storage pretty easily and then you have both storage and production combined with easy swapping.
Early Geothermal energy plants suffered a slow but persistent loss of capacity over time (IIRC as the rock cooled), eventually resulting in either having to move the extraction point or close the plant. Has that issue been understood well enough now that we can use it long term?
You'll still have to produce the energy to heat these bricks. It's not decarbonization per say but optimization of renewable capacity. Still super useful though 😊
I have been running propolene glycol, that is fermented fruit juice antifreeze through 100 sq.ft. liquid solar panels then through radiant tubing in floor for 25 years here in New Mexico. Works great. I use collectors from 1970s. Nobody makes a cheap steel version now.
There is also cold storage. I went to an university where the air condionning system was using fresh air at night and off peak electricity to make ice, and using the ice to make cold air during the day. The heat pump was more efficient because the air was colder during the night. And electricity was cheaper at night. Ice storage is not expensive.
I love your videos and they make people think! Although I think the videos have become much less critical. The solutions are usually very expensive and will therefore have to generate a lot of energy to be profitable. I have no illusions that humans can combat global warming! Less pollution and a clean environment appeal more to me! Thank you very much for your great videos! 🙏🏻
@hyndscs Plants grew just fine a century ago. You sound like you're suggesting that we need more CO2 in the atmosphere. You are misinformed regarding climate models.
Why do you think humans can't combat global warming? This channel has presented a number of ways to do exactly that. Stopping the burning of fossil fuels will also result in less pollution and a cleaner environment.
@hyndscsTo answer your first question… throughout the entire course of human civilization (the past 10,000 or so years), up to the beginning of fossil fuel consumption around 200 years ago, Earth was at around 280ppm CO2, give or take a few. We know this data from measuring air bubbles in ice cores, which have “rings” rather like trees so they can be dated precisely. Since the start of fossil fuel consumption, we reached over 418ppm CO2 in 2022, increasing over 2ppm/year in recent years. At this rate of fossil consumption, we will have doubled atmospheric CO2 from pre-industrial levels in another 70 years. And yes, plants grew just fine without fossil carbon. For your second question, “Why is 70% of the sun’s effect on earth ignored in climate models?”, it starts with a counter-question - why do you believe it is being ignored? Have you read any of these studies yourself, or are you getting this information from a secondary source? If so, what is the secondary source? Because it seems to me, um, unlikely that scientists, committed to pursuit of truth using a system built on repeatability and critique (the scientific method), would all “ignore” 70% of the sun’s effect on Earth. So rather than assuming your assertion is correct, I’m questioning the assertion. So… present evidence for your claims.
Everything manufactured has a cost, even handmade items, like my house. It's the depreciation rate and total life that is the measure of its final worthwhileness.
The literal building block of their system is also one of the most energy intensive manufacturering processes. I wonder where their energy comes from to produce these bricks?
Hi there, we recover the lifecycle emissions of our systems in only a few hours of operating! Bricks are actually not too energy intensive to create, especially when they're created using our own heat batteries instead of gas kilns!
@@rondoenergy4228 Glad to hear it will be possible to use heat from your storage system to create the bricks. I'd love to see if your thermal batteries could be usefully combined with absorption cooling.
Ain't human ingenuity great! So many great ideas that should have been funded, tested and rolled out years ago when we had the faintest chance of avoiding the Great Simplification. As things stand, I listen to these ideas, shrug and sigh. For most, it's 10 years of development before the technology would be ready to roll out, 15 before the infrastructure is in place to scale up production, and 20 before we start to see impacts. Time that we ain't got. Still, it's always interesting to know about this stuff and contemplate what could have been. Thanks again, Dave!
This idea has been around for years, i owned flat in the early 1980's that had its original 1970`s, electric storage heaters that had bricks as the storage medium.
Portland Cement production requires heating limestone to 1400 degrees Celsius. This sounds like a good fit. I wonder if you could replace these bricks with limestone instead.
Comparing a giant heat battery to a kettle must be the most english you've been in the channel in a long time. I've seen a lot of videos about heat storage, but other than hot water an indoor heating, I've never seen any direct application. I'd love to hear more about how it can be used to power industrial processes like those described in the video. Also, I can't help think that the real revolution would come from systems that could transform moderate heat into electricity, for example removing excess heat from pv panels.
I just came across a WSJ article on Agora Energy that is doing field trials and appears to be a competitor of Rondo. They utilize carbon bricks and some sort of conversion via light which sounds very interesting. They might be worth a story. I appreciate the depth and summary nature of your presentations.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I love projects like this. Nothing special, just a giant pile of engineered dirt in a metal can. That actually has a chance to get built. I look forward to living in a world assisted by these devices and never knowing they're there.
But also simple enough to be built under license allowing rapid expansion and stable income/profits for Rondo.
Take a look at the Aluminum-Graphene battery. If you could choose one or the other, which one would you pick?
💯 agree with you. Also, I'm sorry to be that guy, but it's, "they're there".
@@jameskent9759 fixed it
@@andrewkaiser7203 looks like the aluminum ion batteries will be used for a different task but are evolving in a similar way. Competing with lithium isn't necessarily about volume. It's about the discharge rate. If it can compete with the discharge rate I think the researchers may have something.
I think this is the way forward - minimal impact on existing technologies (district heating, industrial processes), minimal footprint, relatively low cost and rapid return of investment for installer.
And no break-neck new technology/process/chemical involved.
And they even managed to squeeze AI in, which increases the chance for investors to step in :)
Congrats on the video - this time a bit more optimistic than usual :)
ai, the investor buzzword of the year eh?
@@___.51 Whatever it takes to pry the checkbooks open.
I'm not sure if you have any experience in this field but you're basically spot on.
AI is the only real buzzword but ML is basically AI and definitely being used appropriately from what is described.
Anyways, the powers that be will keep this under tight security due to high level IP but any rich ingenious person can replicate with amazing results.
@@ValidatingUsername The problem with ML is that you might need to train it again for new deployment - as the model created is calculated on the inputs you get and those will be different.
The other option is to set your model once and then just use the resulting pattern in the device ;) But that's then just scalar model, not ML :)
While I find the idea of using constant learning and adjusting in these devices interesting, I don't think it's that usable or makes such a difference - the hysteresis of the system will prevent you to make some fast changes and prediction model for surrounding environment/target will have too many parameters.
So yeah, I believe this is another case where the "AI" is used only as a buzz-word.
@@rklauco I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just a good old fuzzy logic optimisation system tbh. Calling it AI is kind of a flashback if that’s true! (And any neural network training may end up defacto reimplementing fuzzy logic for the reasons you mention!)
The amusing thought that crossed my mind was: I hope this Rondo Energy's news hit the fossil fuel industries like a ton of bricks (and hopefully a hell of a lot more.)
No, they will just them out and then scrap the plants.
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Pedantic point
The original Thermos®️ flask was not made of stainless steel, instead the drink was contained in a double thin walled glass flask, with the glass silvered on the vacuum facing interior walls. The drink didn't taste metallic any more than it would out of a glass teapot.
Thermos®️ is a brand name, but the inventor of those flasks was called Dewar, who invented them to keep things cold, not hot. Did like Liquid Oxygen. In cryo lands three are still called "Dewar flasks" and the physics labs at Manchester have some in all sizes from a fraction of a litre to ones on wheels about 1.6m tall.
The problem with a Dewar flash for outdoor activities is that they are fragile: drop them from less than a meter into rock and the glass shatters.
That's why Thermos® went over to stainless steel for their top of the range flasks, and nowadays most hour drink flasks are stainless steel.
You know with modern gorilla glass, I bet they could make thermos bottles that were durable.
@@macmcleod1188 only that it still breaks ;)
@nopenope1 I have dropped my current phone over a dozen times in the last 2 years and it's fine. I don't even have a screen protector on it.
When I was a child, I had thermos and dropping them from any height broke the contents. I think a gorilla glass thermos would not break because the outer plastic shell would protect it from direct impact buy a rock or pebble and the gorilla glass is more than strong enough to survive the g-forces.
And my phone is not a particularly expensive phone.
stainless steel vacuum one work just as good
@@GroovyVideo2 I never thought so because the steel was a better conductor of heat or cold.
Plus, mine had a taste that I didn't like.
The city of Halle, also Germany, has been operating their 50 million liter thermos bottle since 2018. It seems to be doing well and is an unbeatably cheap way to store energy. I imagine replacing the old power plant with a heat pump would be a fantastic way to decarbonize and increase flexibility on the demand side of the electricity grid.
Yeah, I'm stuck with the question what heat pump is envisioned for this kind of use? Because let's be honest, the water battery is by far the best heat battery because you get so much energy content per kelvin added and under the philosophy of efficient heat pumping you preferably don't want to climb that kelvin ladder too high anyway ... but one is tempted to use the water battery at least all the way to 100 °C because otherwise the energy density turns out to be meagre after all... but then, what heat pump to use? Typical consumer heat pumps are designed to pump to 50 or 60 °C...
@@5th_decile Industrial heat pumps typically work at 80°, but designs with higher temperatures are in development according to various projects that can be found online. Even water itself is considered as a working fluid. Thinking about it, looking into the new developments of high temperature heat pumps could be an interesting topic for this channel. Without a doubt, a lot will happen in this field with increasing electrification.
I guess temperature vs pressure is a limiting factor in using water as the storage medium, if you want to go beyond the boiling point you have to contain the pressure, with all the associated costs and dangers (giant pressure bomb in the centre of a city) whereas the brick medium can take a much higher temperature without any of these issues. Of course, the actual energy stored per kg of medium will depend on the specific heat capacity for each but not having to consider pressure build up suggests a win for brick in my mind. Of course also have to consider the energy conversion at either end (in and out). Probably simpler for water compared to brick. Would be an interesting cost/benefit analysis.
The Saale river could supply heat that is then condensed with a large heat pump - like it's done in Esbjerg. As cities in Germany must make plans for heat networks until 2028 they may pretty well be considering this already.
It's not about the design but about refrigerant. If liquid turns to gas at 60deg c then you can't heat water up to more than 60 deg c. Moreover the hotter the water is the less efficient whole system is. If you want to heat up water to 55 deg c, cop drops from 3.5 to 2.5 or less depending on external temperature. Also refrigerants are potent ghg gases. We basically should stop using heat pumps as soon as possible, but there is no good alternative at the moment. We have to little energy to have brick batteries in homes and industry.
Thanks for featuring us Dave, and for putting a spotlight on this very important topic -- decarbonizing industrial heat would cut global CO2 by ~22%!
Reminds me of the refractory brick 'storage heaters' my parents had installed in the 1960's. They took advantage of cheap overnight 'off peak' electricity to heat up, and slowly release the heat throughout the day. They were the best heating system, better than radiators-worth of central heating on the walls, and they looked pretty stylish for the time. Even for these times I suspect.
They were hot all day when you were out, and had cooled down by evening when you were in. We need domestic storage heaters which are bigger and better insulated than the old ones.
We got rid of ours as they didn't really allow heating on demand. (Yes, I really am that old.)
We think we look pretty stylish too =] But yes this is principally the same exact thing -- but we charge and discharge simultaneously so we deliver heat 24/7.
I currently use one. It's a dump load for my off grid PV system. Heats during the day when it's sunny and releases the heat in the evening. Works a treat.
@@clivebashford2056They probably just needed better insulation and controls.
Excellent as always Dave. These simple low maintenance energy storage options are game changing.
yup. and the fact that we will keep innovating, refining and making other storage options cheaper and more efficient means that eventually (who knows how soon, but hopefully within a decade or so) we can store all excess energy generated by solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal for use during the off-peak generation times. Combine this with more efficient usage from appliances, and smarter usage behaviors, and we can FINALLY be rid of fossil fuels for energy generation AND transportation. Sure, we will never be fully divested of petroleum products as they are just too damned versatile for many of the things we depend on, but we can finally stop BURNING them.
of course this will make the petrosexuals extremely angry.
@@ThatOpalGuy No such thing as petrosexuals.
They all just do it for the money.
@@ThatOpalGuypetrosexuals, Nice new word in the vocabulary😂
@paulbrouyere1735 I wish I'd made it up
Simple is boring, boring is good!
This one really looks interesting.
Also worth checking out the startup Antora which does a similar thing but with carbon blocks, which actually glow very brightly when heated, so they also have PV integrated into the system to generate electricity, when/if that's needed more than or in addition to industrial heat.
We love what Antora is doing and wish them the best, there's a lot of market to cover! Ultimately, we think our materials are the safest to use for heat storage, and have been proven to work in the steel industry for hundreds of years already.
Dave, great and hopeful video, always welcome in my day, just a brief thank you. Cheers!
You are absolutely right and that is the technology that should be used here in Australia. Thank you.
I agree. But the politicians would say that putting hot bricks in your car would ruin your weekend!
Ahoy! We agree mate!
That's a hot topic (pun intended 🙂) indeed. Nice to see that the industry is scaling fast. This kind of technology can't come soon enough. As a matter of fact it should have been there some time ago but better late than never.
Full steam ahead! 😉
If I’m not mistaken, the air and temperature control system would be totally doable by a fuzzy logic system. (Such as you’d find in a sensor drier, or some dishwashers.)
Which was hyped as AI in the 90s but quickly became just another mundane thing instead of “AI”, which is a moving target.
Unless Rondo are really using neural networks for some reason, and even if they are they could well be reimplementing fuzzy logic if the network is analysed, it’s kind of funny to see it getting called AI again! I guess it’s somewhat appropriate, the 90s are in fashion again in some other ways 😉
There's no way it's more than an algorithm. AI is just a squishy enough term to use and gets investors going because they know nothing.
Actually a simple PID controller would be more than sufficient
@@michaelharrison1093 great, so even simpler haha
It sounds to me like they are trying desperately to protect some IP and make it sound sexy for investors.
Those 'bricks' look great! And good for Thailand staff as well!
Thanks Dave. Another positive solution that underlines the scale of effort underway to solve our energy transition. Reasons to be cheerful as Mr Dury used to say.
Lets not forget that energy conversion is needed (from heat to electricity) for use for stuff other than a specific powerplant that needs heat. This can drop the efficiency.
Your point is more widely valid than just electricity
Conversion of heart into mechanical energy is the inefficient thing: so this is a useful way to store heat where heat is needed later, but not so good when wanting mechanical energy. That includes turning a generator to make electricity.
This would be great for capturing low energy excess heat from manufacturing process if your city had a public hot water supply. Oh communism
Our combined heat and power (CHP) efficiency is around 95%. Most of our early customers, however, are simply looking for steam to replace their existing gas-fired boilers.
Dave, this is super encouraging and needs to be massively scaled!! I live in Canada where we need to massively scale up the geo-thermal via closed loop use of old drilled gas and oil holes where pressurized water can be pumped into these shafts to be super-heated and returned to the surface to turn turbines for power generation. Would love to see an update for this and how it can be integrated into heat storage as well.
Canada is a great location for heat batteries, and we're engaging in multiple territories!
Just Have a Think is the winning formula for keeping up-to-date on important news for the climate! 🎉😊
Yes, old, time tested ideas that use simple ingredients are the solution. The thermos is such a brilliant container, I am so glad to see that there is lots of effort going into making better use of thermoses for energy storage
Simple ingredients, Simple bricks, Rondo Energy.
I didn't realise this until I started to look at who was producing thermal storage systems in the UK; these is a company called Caldera in the UK that is using vacuum as the insulation!
Well done bringing in the thermos and the brick.
Now THAT's a solution!! Simple, easy to scale, and portable.
YES, but not portable haha.
Thanks!
Thanks for your support. Much appreciated!
My fave part about the heat storage battery is it’s literally just a kiln, and the input/output system uses known and mature industrial principles, math and technology.
The innovation is the brick design, but 70s hot air passive solar house builds used beds of 3” cobbles in the crawlspace for the same reason - predictable heat release and turbulent airflow with minimal stagnation. These need to be slapped onto every single steam generator power plant on earth already in service, and two on every solar and wind installation.
This would be perfect to go with wind and solar generation, but what would the efficiency be for such a system?
@@mihir2781 The efficiency of resistance heaters is pretty darn close to 100%, mostly switching and line loss, but heat capacity of the materials drives input/output efficiency. Water can hold the most BTU per pound (other than obscure chemistry or phase change answers) of any storage medium, but only to the PV=NRT limits of water and container. Once you get up to a thousand degrees, efficiency is less important than stability, safety and ease of use.
Dumping excess wind, sun heat or PV wattage overboard is zero efficiency, so any amount of storage between demand cycles to level the grid is an improvement that makes wind and solar a viable solution and not a joke for trump rallies.
Yes!
Some excellent ideas being implemented across Europe. Why can't the UK do something like this?
Because we’ve lost most of the subsidies that get them going :/
And too busy subsidising oil and gas
Highview Power are developing a cryogenic storage facility in the North West region of the UK
Brexit? Creativity flounders in rightwing environments. The left charges into the future, the right retreats into the past. Tell me if this isn't true.
Bureaucrats.
One in the pink and one in the think! Happy Sunday, great show, thank you for your work!
This made me very happy. It was a good Thunk!
Very exciting news! Thank you for mixing up the existential disaster and good news videos, my peace (or piece) of mind appreciates it, cheers!
Wow. Hot stuff indeed. One I learned about in my secondary school, some... lemme see... yeah, over forty years ago. Regenerators and recuperators, they are called in the trade.
Also, accumulative electric heaters, using special ceramic "bricks" heated by cheaper electricity during off-peak hours (aka "lower tariff" hours) have been around for even longer than that, so yeah, hot stuff. Like, really hot. Beam me up, Scotty... ;-)
I just really love your videos.
I end up informed... and 😎 relaxed.
Like your voice & your presentation style .... thank you!
Three questions that I think should be evalueted.
1. Power loss in distribution/maximum distance covered.
2. Power loss for transforming this into electricity.
3. Energy wasted and enviornmental impact during the fabrication and implamentation of this.
1. Would be a local consideration and very geographically dependant - so I can't really speak to this.
2. You're probably looking at 100% efficiency or near it for converting electricity to heat, but 30-40% for converting heat back to electricity; however most thermal energy storage companies argue that round-trip efficiency can be a misleading metric when considering storage solutions; citing that while a grid may only be able to recover 30-40% of stored energy, the cost of storage and recovery will cost around 10% of what it costs to store the same amount of energy in a lithium-ion battery. Thus, even though the round-trip efficiency is much lower, the cost per joule of reclaimed energy is still better value due to the low capital cost of thermal storage. Whether this is viable will depend on the cost and availability of off-peak electricity.
3. Most thermal storage companies are looking to use materials that are either readily available, abundant and recyclable - because there are no emissions in the use-cycle of the bricks they can be reclaimed after the 30-40 year lifespan and recycled into new bricks at a rate of almost 100%.
It's good. In spite of all the bad stuff happening we have to keep pushing on with these positive measures and you never know we might just climb out of this hole we've got ourselves in.
Re: "10% of the hot water requirements of the entire city of Berlin"
This! It is utterly insane that things like district heating working off of renewable resources or (at the bare minimum) taking advantage of waste heat from industrial/electrical production processes.
You deserve this. I deserve this. *We* deserve this!
This HAS to happen on the municipal level. That's the scale where you can make a difference. So do it! Call your local representatives and make a fuss about this. Start with convincing your neighbours that this is doable.
It's expensive up front because it's infrastructure but that's not the point. The point is that we can pay for this now and have the infrastructure in place to minimize the constantly creepy costs associated with climate change as well as have a measurable reduction in greenhouse gas emissions locally.
Do it. You. Yourself. Make a fuss! Be loud! Demand answers and solutions! Your siblings deserve it, your kids deserve it. Do it for yourself and ourselves. We need you. Let's GO! WOO!
Thanks
Thanks for your support. Much appreciated!
Thank you, sir - these videos give me hope for the future!
So nice and refreshing to see stuff observing the KISS principle.
Thank you. Brenmiller has a commercial heat storage solution as well, of fine gravel in shipping containers sized "batteries ".
engineering with rosie did a fantastic video on ceramic/aluminium heat batteries which was quite interesting!
Loving that so many different people are coming up with different ways of storing energy. No one storage type will be the holy grail as each has its best use applications. Therefore the more types of storage come on line the better we will be.
More storage, fewer problems!
Short and sweet. Sounds great.
More people should know about the Drake Landing Solar Community in Okotoks, Alberta Canada. Solar energy captured in the summer to heat homes in the winter.
damn that pretty cool, I was thinking about doing something like this diy for the entire winter but i just decided to move to a warm country lol
How do they store the energy for half a year?
Thank you!!
Looks useful for very high temperature air. The specs for the RBH100 reveal an energy density similar to water. 13m x 10m x 10m for 100MWh is (I think) 280J/cm^3, the same as heating water by just under 70 degrees.
For something like district heating the water tank approach will be simpler and probably cheaper. Danish seasonal pit storage costs are available online (perhaps 35 EUR/m^3), and as the pit scales the losses are reduced (energy stored goes with the cube but the area of the tank is the square). In that case charging with solar thermal collectors or heat pumps will make more sense than burning the electricity.
Simpler the better. This fits the need! Thanks for your work
Again a very clear and pleasant presentation 🙂
Solar thermal is the answer. I've been saying it for years. I'm prototyping a solar thermal platform right now. I will continue this relentless pursuit until I have a viable product for the market. It is proving the most challenging project I have ever endeavored to complete. I hope others will realize the potential along the way.
The falling cost of wind and solar PV has made it very challenging for solar thermal to compete. Also, in our market, we're targeting facilities where energy density is critical because they don't have excess land, so a large solar thermal plant would not be viable onsite. Also, when you transport heat over distances, you lose a lot of it, so it's important your heat generation is located close to where it's being consumed, which is why our energy dense batteries fit right onsite much like a gas-boiler does.
My father was part of the design team at Bethlehem Steel for (what was then in 1962) the largest integrated steel making facility in the U.S. called Burns Harbor located in Michigan City, IN. They developed and implemented many innovations in the capture and re-use of waste heat in various parts of the operation. We visited that facility in 2019 for what was the 55th anniversary of rolling the first piece of plate steel off of the mill in 1964. The plant is still in operation today as part of the Cleveland-Cliffs company (stock ticker CLF).
For anyone who has never seen the process of making iron in a blast furnace and then converting it to steel in a basic oxygen furnace, and then turning it into basic steel products such as steel plate, hot rolled coil, nickel plated products, etc., it is truly awe-inspiring in scale. Unfortunately, it is also a major carbon generator, something the industry has been working to improve for decades.
Very encouraging.
As a ceramicist, I felt it necessary to say that the Rondo system is far from CO2 free in production unless the manufacture of the "Bricks" is conducted with renewable energy.
I'm sure they've done their calculations correctly but the manufacture of large ceramic objects that can withstand 1500 degrees is usually very heavy on energy input. I don't know of a concrete product that could withstand repeated exposure to such high temperatures.
As regards the degradation of the units, I can see that the ceramics (if that's what they call it) would not degrade through the expansion and contraction as long as the temperature is carefully manage to avoid the major physical change in silica (quartz inversion) at 573°C, notorious for destroying ceramic objects, particularly bulky objects like these.
The electric elements will suffer degradation far sooner than the brick.
I still think it's a serious move in the right direction and the promis of large scale production is really positive.
One of the nice things about this system is that it would have a lot of use in de-carbonization of concrete and refractory brick manufacture. If you put the plants in places like CA where there's a huge renewable energy surplus during the day, you can charge up the bricks. Even if the cement plant is using fossil fuels for its primary heating, they could swap over to the high temp air to reduce or eliminate emissions during the middle of the day. If they were using electrical heating for the thermal input, they could get even greater savings, as the plant could run off the grid during cheap renewable power periods and off the bricks during the night. Steel and other metal refining could see large carbon/cost savings with this tech with fairly modest changes to their infrastructure.
As for the electrical elements breaking down, I wonder if these bricks are microwave absorbers. If so, it might be possible to simply use magnetrons to heat them up through microwave transparent windows and keep all of the electronic components at more modest temperatures.
It is called Foundry Brick made for high temperatures.
Yes but the brick have to be made only once, then wee are good for decades on end :)
If 573°C is a critical temperature, how do they manage 1500°?
Maybe the ceramics they use are without Silicone?
Fondag concrete is good to 1100°C.
Fantastic clean batteries that work in current industrial systems...thank God for giving us brains! Roll them out!
Great stuff Dave..thank you.
Thank you 👍🏻
The difference between the sand and the ceramic bricks you covered here gets down to the thermal transport engineering differences.
The best is not to transform the energy, i.e. heat to movement. The problem is that storing heat for winter needs a lot of time, half a year. The lava from volcanos keeps hot during even years, only with the insulation of the same lava crust and because of the big size of the deposit. What about huge underground deposits of molten salts in order to take advantage or latent heat too? Or perhaps that is very expensive for large masses and then it is better to keep it in bricks, rocks, etc.?
Love your channel Dave!
Back in the fortys mum used to put house bricks in the oven heated by the fire in the front room and wrapped in newspaper for hot water bottles,how forward thinking was that.
I am honored to be the same species as you sir, thank you for all you efforts to bring us good and bad news related to this global challenge we're facing.
If you by chance find projects that explicitly require money for us to invest/donate, I'd personally be extremely thrilled!
Thank you very much!
I love to just have a look at just have a think. Another excellent video!!!
blast furnaces for steelmaking have used the stacked brick method of heat exchange since forever. they have 3 separate blockhouses . the superhot gasses coming from the furnace go through 2 of the brickhouses while incoming air is heated by one. they alternate like every 20 minutes or so
Yes! that's why we chose refractory brick!
This is brilliant thanks for this information. You give me hope for the future it's nothing I hear the MSM, funny about that.
Great work!! THANKS !
A battery that looks promising. Thanks for sharing 🙏
Cheers Dave, great video and great news!
The Berlin water energy storage tank looks like a small gasometer! Things go round in circles!
Thank you. I am talking about heat batteries for more than a decade by now :) Nice to see finally they came true
We're here for you =]
Another very interesting video. Thank you.
You remain my favorite You Tube author. This is another excellent presentation and gives me great hope that we can reach the goal of eventually reversing the excess carbon load in our atmosphere. I have one question. I used to take care of burn patients so I immediately thought of all the industrial accidents that brought people to our units. Super heated air and water can leak. Large tanks can fail. The great beer flood in London a few centuries ago comes to mind. What advancements have been made to safe guard all the pipes and fittings and valves? And, given what we are seeing in Ukraine and Gaza, shouldn't we be doing as much as possible to decentralize our energy grids? Thank you.
Very interesting. Thanks for the great video!
Bring it on!!!
Dude, I totally agree with you.
Essentially we are manually creating geothermal energy for a storage. Seems like we could combine it with direct geothermal energy and storage pretty easily and then you have both storage and production combined with easy swapping.
Early Geothermal energy plants suffered a slow but persistent loss of capacity over time (IIRC as the rock cooled), eventually resulting in either having to move the extraction point or close the plant. Has that issue been understood well enough now that we can use it long term?
An important piece of the puzzle
The big water thermos in Berlin reminded me of the giant aquarium that bursted there.
Just a bigger version of the night storage units that gas replaced.
You'll still have to produce the energy to heat these bricks. It's not decarbonization per say but optimization of renewable capacity.
Still super useful though 😊
We typically charge via off-grid wind and solar, and directly replace gas-boilers. =]
1238pm ist on 23102023.
Rainfall since 10 minutes
Thanks for another very informant video. This technology does seem to be a good fit for many processes.
Gracias
I have been running propolene glycol, that is fermented fruit juice antifreeze through 100 sq.ft. liquid solar panels then through radiant tubing in floor for 25 years here in New Mexico. Works great. I use collectors from 1970s. Nobody makes a cheap steel version now.
There is also cold storage. I went to an university where the air condionning system was using fresh air at night and off peak electricity to make ice, and using the ice to make cold air during the day. The heat pump was more efficient because the air was colder during the night. And electricity was cheaper at night. Ice storage is not expensive.
I love your videos and they make people think! Although I think the videos have become much less critical. The solutions are usually very expensive and will therefore have to generate a lot of energy to be profitable. I have no illusions that humans can combat global warming! Less pollution and a clean environment appeal more to me! Thank you very much for your great videos! 🙏🏻
@hyndscs Plants grew just fine a century ago. You sound like you're suggesting that we need more CO2 in the atmosphere. You are misinformed regarding climate models.
Why do you think humans can't combat global warming? This channel has presented a number of ways to do exactly that. Stopping the burning of fossil fuels will also result in less pollution and a cleaner environment.
@@incognitotorpedo42 Global warming won't be affected by that!
@hyndscsTo answer your first question… throughout the entire course of human civilization (the past 10,000 or so years), up to the beginning of fossil fuel consumption around 200 years ago, Earth was at around 280ppm CO2, give or take a few. We know this data from measuring air bubbles in ice cores, which have “rings” rather like trees so they can be dated precisely. Since the start of fossil fuel consumption, we reached over 418ppm CO2 in 2022, increasing over 2ppm/year in recent years. At this rate of fossil consumption, we will have doubled atmospheric CO2 from pre-industrial levels in another 70 years. And yes, plants grew just fine without fossil carbon.
For your second question, “Why is 70% of the sun’s effect on earth ignored in climate models?”, it starts with a counter-question - why do you believe it is being ignored? Have you read any of these studies yourself, or are you getting this information from a secondary source? If so, what is the secondary source? Because it seems to me, um, unlikely that scientists, committed to pursuit of truth using a system built on repeatability and critique (the scientific method), would all “ignore” 70% of the sun’s effect on Earth. So rather than assuming your assertion is correct, I’m questioning the assertion. So… present evidence for your claims.
@@incognitotorpedo42 I think he's saying he believes we can collectively address emissions.
Good idea.
The more tools we have to fight for our survival, the better. ❤
I will just keep my typing shut for now. Thank you for this channel and everyday my project is becoming clearly needed and so innovative..
Excellent video!!
Another great video keep up the great work
Making the bricks must require energy, which must be included in the equations.
Everything manufactured has a cost, even handmade items, like my house. It's the depreciation rate and total life that is the measure of its final worthwhileness.
I asked my boss this and i think he said a Rondo Heat Battery recovers the carbon that was used to create it in less than a day of operating!
Let's do it!
The literal building block of their system is also one of the most energy intensive manufacturering processes. I wonder where their energy comes from to produce these bricks?
Sand is better.
Hi there, we recover the lifecycle emissions of our systems in only a few hours of operating! Bricks are actually not too energy intensive to create, especially when they're created using our own heat batteries instead of gas kilns!
@@rondoenergy4228 Glad to hear it will be possible to use heat from your storage system to create the bricks. I'd love to see if your thermal batteries could be usefully combined with absorption cooling.
I love this one!
Ain't human ingenuity great! So many great ideas that should have been funded, tested and rolled out years ago when we had the faintest chance of avoiding the Great Simplification. As things stand, I listen to these ideas, shrug and sigh. For most, it's 10 years of development before the technology would be ready to roll out, 15 before the infrastructure is in place to scale up production, and 20 before we start to see impacts. Time that we ain't got.
Still, it's always interesting to know about this stuff and contemplate what could have been.
Thanks again, Dave!
This idea has been around for years, i owned flat in the early 1980's that had its original 1970`s, electric storage heaters that had bricks as the storage medium.
Portland Cement production requires heating limestone to 1400 degrees Celsius. This sounds like a good fit. I wonder if you could replace these bricks with limestone instead.
Wonderful
GREAT STUFF
This is a very good idea.
Comparing a giant heat battery to a kettle must be the most english you've been in the channel in a long time.
I've seen a lot of videos about heat storage, but other than hot water an indoor heating, I've never seen any direct application. I'd love to hear more about how it can be used to power industrial processes like those described in the video.
Also, I can't help think that the real revolution would come from systems that could transform moderate heat into electricity, for example removing excess heat from pv panels.
anyone notice the news article for the berlin water tank used bathtubs instead of olympic swimming pools?
sounds good!
Minute 3:19, I'm curious as to why this structure wasn't buried in the ground?
I just came across a WSJ article on Agora Energy that is doing field trials and appears to be a competitor of Rondo. They utilize carbon bricks and some sort of conversion via light which sounds very interesting. They might be worth a story. I appreciate the depth and summary nature of your presentations.