Thanks so much for making this video! My dad is the patent holder for the Spindle Square and I remember when he first started mass producing them when I was little. He worked on them so much that my family would eat dinner at the shop. Good memories - but the bottom line is great quality Love him!
Thank you for all your videos. I am getting 'into' machining after 30+ years dealing with electronics and software, it's nice to be able to *see* what I am playing with now. Really enjoying the videos a lot, and learning a lot also. Many thanks.
The new camera seems much higher resolution than in the past. Really clear and nice quality video. I'm sure that the dual depth indicator was very expensive. Obviously a quality tool ...not from China I would guess ...Thanks again for the informative video...Matt
If the table isn't perpendicular to the knee dovetail, there will be a perpendicularity error between the knee's dovetail and the spindle. This will result in unwanted movement of the cutting tool when using the knee to raise the part into the cutting tool, instead of using the quill. Although I'm not using a Bridgeport, I'm curious if table perpendicularity can be adjusted, and how it's checked. Great series - keep up the good work. I've learned SO much.
great process and of course the new camera looks awesome. i noticed immediately that it didn't make your old camera's signature clicking sound when you begin filming. i recently got a sony HD myself. great choice.
I've used these tools and they are cool and have other good uses like for sine bars. I'm just old school and would rather sweep in with a test indicator. Also when I tram the head I do not move the table up and down. I make sure the knee is snug against the ways but I'm sure you probably have the knee lock snug when moving the table up and down. Also as another commentator has mentioned it's just a mill and there is no reason to over think the accuracy of the machine. They are only accurate to a point. So in my opinion depending on the work you're doing will be a factor in how accurate you need to be within the machine's parameters. For instance those who think lowering the spindle will give them a more accurate tram on the head so they lower the table way down and bring the down all the way think when they are done and move the table back up closer to the spindle it will be more accurate! Well for they're information unless the machine is called a jig bore or grinder it's not going to make enough of a difference to justify the time to screw around because as soon as you move the table that will be gone then add the variable that when you move the table back up and so on and so on. I love your videos! Super valuable lessons! Keep up the great work!
Thnaks for the knowledge Mr. Pete! I've been using the Starret Spindle Square at my job and it's perfect for tramming the Bridgeport head to the vise or the table.. I usually tram to the vise and have a few gentlemen arguing with me about the validity of this product on Facebook. I just may shit them up with a link to this video. For longer and larger parts, I would use something with a much wider swing and tram to the part (if pre-machined) or the table for greater accuracy over that area... do you agree? Thank you again sir, I'm a huge fan of your channel.
I only read a couple comments, my suggestion may have already been mentioned. That being said, you might consider checking the table in X and Y, then adjust the axis that is the furthest from square first. This is of the most benefit when one axis is way-off. It may save repeating the process when you really want it really close. I try to hit half a thou accuracy. You can see the difference when fly cutting on larger surfaces.
thats a nice tool have to sweep mine Thanks Mr. Pete. I just bought a J head and needed to learn a few things and i love my Bridgeport J head works great
Very nice little device there. I have always used the "sweeping" method, which is tricky and time consuming. How much does one of those typically cost? Very informative video. Thanks.
The head is where the adjustment screws are located, therfore only the head can be "out'. The table is meant to be solid and stable, moving only in the three axis in strictly linear moves. Imagine how complex and unstable a mill would be if the head was strictly immovable and the table had to be moved to align with it.
The table can be out for example the x and y axis may not be perfectly perpendicular to each other but this is not adjustable, they are never perfect but there are tolerances they have that are machined into them and can not be easily adjusted.
I already subscribe to your channel, and have for a while, but I was on the spindle square website and was delighted to see that they are using your how-to video. Kind of weird they don't have their own, but you did explain it very well. I'm going to pick one up. All the best.
Thanks. the owner of the company (3 yearsago) contacted me and asked if he could use the video. I said of course you can. Then a few months later, he sent me a new spindle square. The one I used in the video, was borrowed from my brother.
So, if you don't have this fancy device, what is the best way to do this? I'm guessing I would use a magbase in the spindle and rotate is 180 degrees out a couple of times for each direction. Suggestions?
One thing I would recommend doing every 90 days or so, is that you start off with an indicator in the collet and run the table in both the X and Y axis and make certain that the table does not have any excessive runout. It is a good idea to stop at several intervals along the length of the X axis, and then run the limits of travel in the Y axis and record your deviations at predetermined intervals. This will give you a "map" of the table accuracy over its entire length of travel in both the X and Y axes. It is also a good idea to track Z axis travel deviation at the minimum and maximum travel that you anticipate to use for a run. You can be prefectly fine at the top of cut, but three inches away from your calibration point, you can be off several mils, as far as parallelism to the X/Y axes goes, due to wear in the Z axis ways as well. It is quite common, especially on machines that have seen a lot of use, for the ways to have uneven wear as most machines get used near the center of travel much more frequently. You may be perfectly fine through a small area of travel and then begin to deviate in the Z axis (vertical) depending upon how the X and Y axses ways are worn. This is fixable, but beyond the scope of this posting - and it depends upon which machine you are using and what degree of tolerances and lengths of cuts you are making. If you are working large pieces to close tolerances, realize that the dial indicators have some degree of error throughout their range as well, and with a 4" baseline of this gage, you are still prone to error multiplication on cuts longer than the 4" baseline that this gage uses. Even so, this is a great little gadget as long as the dial gages are accurate and the machine is within allowable deviations with respect to the tolerances you are working within. Thanks for posting the video. This device would also be good for checking runout on mills, lathes and jig bores as well. P.S. Good video quality!
There is only one thing that pops up in my mind, were the shanks goes in the machine, thats a collet ? of the collet is warn the reading is also off ?? and eacg time you putt something in the collect the reading is differen.. Or am I missing something ?
This is a good tool for getting it close but I would still recommend tramming the head in with a single indicator in the traditional way after using this tool. Using this tool you are assuming that the shank is perfectly perpendicular with the bottom face of the tool. while the perpendicularity is likely close nothing is perfect and the closer the head is trammed in the better the outcome of the parts being machined. This does look like a good time saver especially for tramming in the Y axis, the x axis you just have to split the difference with a traditional indicator.
+mrpete222 A quick qualification for this fixture would be to take readings 180 deg apart. If the fixture body is square with the shank, you should have the same readings in both positions.
+Phill Huddleston This indicator is a waste of money, I agree totally with your opinion about the shank. The best way I have found to square a head is to place a dot on the fixed vise jaw and move the dot under your indicator, no vise removal and is super accurate
I don't believe it is necessary for the shank to be 100% perpendicular to the bottom face. I'm thinking this possible deficiency is overcome by the calibrating of the two indicators on the surface plate. For what it's worth, Starrett makes this very item and they seem to believe in it.
That would only work if the table or vise you were indicating was already known to be perpendicular to the spindle which would alleviate the need for tramming in the first place. Since the zero settings on each indicator are adjustable you would have to check them every time they are used against a known perpendicular plane which makes it useless for precision tramming.
I have a square column mill and the Starrett version of the spindle square. I tried to tram my mill yesterday. How close is "close enough"? I was able to get the tilt of the head to within a thou and a half. Is that good or should I work with it some more?
+mrpete222 Usually you are good if your total deviation is 1/10th of the required tolerance band. In other words, if you are working to +/- 10 mils, you should be able to get "in-tolerance" work if you are within 2.0 mils, plus or minus, over the length of the cut. The only time greater precision is required is if there are other tolerances involved that have much tighter requirements for the end-use aspects of what you are machining. This would generally apply where tight limitations for overall flatness or perpendicularity are necessary. It is not uncommon for a feature to have a locational tolerance of +/- 30 mils but have much stricter tolerances for form versus location. This is a lot more important where multiple pieces, of the same dimensions/features are to be machined than for a single part, as this practice allows adequate allowance for things such as cutter wear and other small, part-to-part anomalies. Keeping mounting surfaces clean is also a must, just as mrpete222 did with his alignment fixture prior to putting it on the surface plate for calibration/qualification. In a very real sense, nothing is straight, square, perpendicular, level, parallel, perfectly angular, contoured or round. What needs to happen is that your total deviation must be within what is required for the finished piece to be completely usable for its final application.
I know this is an old video and I understand everything you explained but I don't understand how you know the adjustment needs to be made on the head and not the table. Isn't it possible that the table elevation where you made your adjustments to the head along X and Y brought the head perpendicular to the table at that one elevation only. If the problem was that the table surface is not perpendicular to the Z axis and/or does not travel exactly vertical in the Z axis that you will be off every time you change elevation of the table. Maybe you posted a video prior to this where you determined if the head or the table was out, or both for that matter. I looked but couldn't find it. Not knowing anything about the Bridgeport is there a complete alignment procedure written out in the manual or somewhere else that you would use if you had taken the machine apart for repairs or to move it.
This is a ultra tool. I never had much use for on the Mill. There are too many variables to consider. Moreover, It's just a mill. Don't over think things. The shaft could be off (that would really suck) I never looked, but are there any "Certs" for this device? And the collet could be off! I recommend the sweep method. You can sweep the whole table..remount at the spindle and try again. (just in case you have a bad collet). I know your try hard to show "Quick Steps" ...but I just assume use this else where. Where ...I'll let you know when I find it and keep the $150.
To align the mill that way you did is wrong, you have to align the table, because otherwise you aligned the spindle only for one point. Just to drill a hole at this pont.
Thanks so much for making this video! My dad is the patent holder for the Spindle Square and I remember when he first started mass producing them when I was little. He worked on them so much that my family would eat dinner at the shop. Good memories - but the bottom line is great quality Love him!
Thank you for all your videos. I am getting 'into' machining after 30+ years dealing with electronics and software, it's nice to be able to *see* what I am playing with now. Really enjoying the videos a lot, and learning a lot also. Many thanks.
New video quality is excellent.Thank you for taking the time to make videos.
Great video, great tool. So many uses in the shop. Drill table, table saw, etc..
The new camera seems much higher resolution than in the past. Really clear and nice quality video. I'm sure that the dual depth indicator was very expensive. Obviously a quality tool ...not from China I would guess ...Thanks again for the informative video...Matt
If the table isn't perpendicular to the knee dovetail, there will be a perpendicularity error between the knee's dovetail and the spindle. This will result in unwanted movement of the cutting tool when using the knee to raise the part into the cutting tool, instead of using the quill.
Although I'm not using a Bridgeport, I'm curious if table perpendicularity can be adjusted, and how it's checked.
Great series - keep up the good work. I've learned SO much.
always nice to learn from you
great process and of course the new camera looks awesome. i noticed immediately that it didn't make your old camera's signature clicking sound when you begin filming.
i recently got a sony HD myself. great choice.
I've used these tools and they are cool and have other good uses like for sine bars. I'm just old school and would rather sweep in with a test indicator. Also when I tram the head I do not move the table up and down. I make sure the knee is snug against the ways but I'm sure you probably have the knee lock snug when moving the table up and down. Also as another commentator has mentioned it's just a mill and there is no reason to over think the accuracy of the machine. They are only accurate to a point. So in my opinion depending on the work you're doing will be a factor in how accurate you need to be within the machine's parameters. For instance those who think lowering the spindle will give them a more accurate tram on the head so they lower the table way down and bring the down all the way think when they are done and move the table back up closer to the spindle it will be more accurate! Well for they're information unless the machine is called a jig bore or grinder it's not going to make enough of a difference to justify the time to screw around because as soon as you move the table that will be gone then add the variable that when you move the table back up and so on and so on. I love your videos! Super valuable lessons! Keep up the great work!
+Liz Brown Thanks
Thnaks for the knowledge Mr. Pete! I've been using the Starret Spindle Square at my job and it's perfect for tramming the Bridgeport head to the vise or the table.. I usually tram to the vise and have a few gentlemen arguing with me about the validity of this product on Facebook. I just may shit them up with a link to this video. For longer and larger parts, I would use something with a much wider swing and tram to the part (if pre-machined) or the table for greater accuracy over that area... do you agree? Thank you again sir, I'm a huge fan of your channel.
Your dad and I have corresponded---smart guy & man of his word.
Great tip, thanks for sharing. I'm going to get one of these now -- it seems much faster than the traditional squaring method.
I only read a couple comments, my suggestion may have already been mentioned. That being said, you might consider checking the table in X and Y, then adjust the axis that is the furthest from square first. This is of the most benefit when one axis is way-off. It may save repeating the process when you really want it really close. I try to hit half a thou accuracy. You can see the difference when fly cutting on larger surfaces.
thats a nice tool have to sweep mine Thanks Mr. Pete. I just bought a J head and needed to learn a few things and i love my Bridgeport J head works great
Yes, they are great machines
Very nice little device there. I have always used the "sweeping" method, which is tricky and time consuming. How much does one of those typically cost? Very informative video. Thanks.
The head is where the adjustment screws are located, therfore only the head can be "out'. The table is meant to be solid and stable, moving only in the three axis in strictly linear moves. Imagine how complex and unstable a mill would be if the head was strictly immovable and the table had to be moved to align with it.
The table can be out for example the x and y axis may not be perfectly perpendicular to each other but this is not adjustable, they are never perfect but there are tolerances they have that are machined into them and can not be easily adjusted.
Nice video and very helpful.
Thank you Tubalcain.
The new camera is very nice. What camera did you get? The quality is fantastic.
I already subscribe to your channel, and have for a while, but I was on the spindle square website and was delighted to see that they are using your how-to video. Kind of weird they don't have their own, but you did explain it very well. I'm going to pick one up. All the best.
Thanks. the owner of the company (3 yearsago) contacted me and asked if he could use the video. I said of course you can. Then a few months later, he sent me a new spindle square. The one I used in the video, was borrowed from my brother.
So, if you don't have this fancy device, what is the best way to do this? I'm guessing I would use a magbase in the spindle and rotate is 180 degrees out a couple of times for each direction. Suggestions?
One thing I would recommend doing every 90 days or so, is that you start off with an indicator in the collet and run the table in both the X and Y axis and make certain that the table does not have any excessive runout. It is a good idea to stop at several intervals along the length of the X axis, and then run the limits of travel in the Y axis and record your deviations at predetermined intervals. This will give you a "map" of the table accuracy over its entire length of travel in both the X and Y axes. It is also a good idea to track Z axis travel deviation at the minimum and maximum travel that you anticipate to use for a run. You can be prefectly fine at the top of cut, but three inches away from your calibration point, you can be off several mils, as far as parallelism to the X/Y axes goes, due to wear in the Z axis ways as well.
It is quite common, especially on machines that have seen a lot of use, for the ways to have uneven wear as most machines get used near the center of travel much more frequently. You may be perfectly fine through a small area of travel and then begin to deviate in the Z axis (vertical) depending upon how the X and Y axses ways are worn. This is fixable, but beyond the scope of this posting - and it depends upon which machine you are using and what degree of tolerances and lengths of cuts you are making. If you are working large pieces to close tolerances, realize that the dial indicators have some degree of error throughout their range as well, and with a 4" baseline of this gage, you are still prone to error multiplication on cuts longer than the 4" baseline that this gage uses.
Even so, this is a great little gadget as long as the dial gages are accurate and the machine is within allowable deviations with respect to the tolerances you are working within. Thanks for posting the video. This device would also be good for checking runout on mills, lathes and jig bores as well.
P.S. Good video quality!
+MsJoaniePH Thanks
that is a great tool thanks so much for teaching us.
Pardon my naivety, but how can you know if it is the table or the head that is out of alignment ? Is there a way to test the table for squareness ?
I was thinking the exact same thing. Better off checking it after the old school way.
There is only one thing that pops up in my mind, were the shanks goes in the machine, thats a collet ? of the collet is warn the reading is also off ?? and eacg time you putt something in the collect the reading is differen..
Or am I missing something ?
Wouldn't bringing the head out of alignment so the tool doesn't drag give you a slight concave finish?
This could be a good project for you. Just get a couple dial indicators and build a bracket to mount them to.
@SlowEarl1 Sony hdr-cx110. It takes much much longer to edit & upload the HD files.
@mrpete222 wouldn't having the head out of alignment for fly cutting cause a concave surface?
This is a good tool for getting it close but I would still recommend tramming the head in with a single indicator in the traditional way after using this tool. Using this tool you are assuming that the shank is perfectly perpendicular with the bottom face of the tool. while the perpendicularity is likely close nothing is perfect and the closer the head is trammed in the better the outcome of the parts being machined. This does look like a good time saver especially for tramming in the Y axis, the x axis you just have to split the difference with a traditional indicator.
+Phill Huddleston Thanks
+mrpete222 A quick qualification for this fixture would be to take readings 180 deg apart. If the fixture body is square with the shank, you should have the same readings in both positions.
+Phill Huddleston This indicator is a waste of money, I agree totally with your opinion about the shank. The best way I have found to square a head is to place a dot on the fixed vise jaw and move the dot under your indicator, no vise removal and is super accurate
I don't believe it is necessary for the shank to be 100% perpendicular to the bottom face. I'm thinking this possible deficiency is overcome by the calibrating of the two indicators on the surface plate. For what it's worth, Starrett makes this very item and they seem to believe in it.
That would only work if the table or vise you were indicating was already known to be perpendicular to the spindle which would alleviate the need for tramming in the first place. Since the zero settings on each indicator are adjustable you would have to check them every time they are used against a known perpendicular plane which makes it useless for precision tramming.
I have a square column mill and the Starrett version of the spindle square. I tried to tram my mill yesterday. How close is "close enough"? I was able to get the tilt of the head to within a thou and a half. Is that good or should I work with it some more?
+65BAJA Thats good enough. lyle
+mrpete222 Usually you are good if your total deviation is 1/10th of the required tolerance band. In other words, if you are working to +/- 10 mils, you should be able to get "in-tolerance" work if you are within 2.0 mils, plus or minus, over the length of the cut. The only time greater precision is required is if there are other tolerances involved that have much tighter requirements for the end-use aspects of what you are machining. This would generally apply where tight limitations for overall flatness or perpendicularity are necessary. It is not uncommon for a feature to have a locational tolerance of +/- 30 mils but have much stricter tolerances for form versus location.
This is a lot more important where multiple pieces, of the same dimensions/features are to be machined than for a single part, as this practice allows adequate allowance for things such as cutter wear and other small, part-to-part anomalies. Keeping mounting surfaces clean is also a must, just as mrpete222 did with his alignment fixture prior to putting it on the surface plate for calibration/qualification.
In a very real sense, nothing is straight, square, perpendicular, level, parallel, perfectly angular, contoured or round. What needs to happen is that your total deviation must be within what is required for the finished piece to be completely usable for its final application.
beautifully explained. thanks :-)
@timothysvec Yes.
I know this is an old video and I understand everything you explained but I don't understand how you know the adjustment needs to be made on the head and not the table. Isn't it possible that the table elevation where you made your adjustments to the head along X and Y brought the head perpendicular to the table at that one elevation only. If the problem was that the table surface is not perpendicular to the Z axis and/or does not travel exactly vertical in the Z axis that you will be off every time you change elevation of the table.
Maybe you posted a video prior to this where you determined if the head or the table was out, or both for that matter. I looked but couldn't find it. Not knowing anything about the Bridgeport is there a complete alignment procedure written out in the manual or somewhere else that you would use if you had taken the machine apart for repairs or to move it.
This is a ultra tool. I never had much use for on the Mill. There are too many variables to consider. Moreover, It's just a mill. Don't over think things.
The shaft could be off (that would really suck) I never looked, but are there any "Certs" for this device?
And the collet could be off! I recommend the sweep method. You can sweep the whole table..remount at the spindle and try again. (just in case you have a bad collet).
I know your try hard to show "Quick Steps" ...but I just assume use this else where. Where ...I'll let you know when I find it and keep the $150.
As long as the collet is tight and the indicator mounting stem is not moving in the collet it would not affect the tramming at all.
BS!
I want one but i dont got the money... im just in school at the moment.
How much?
@happymark1805,
It seems that you are missing quite a bit.
i need that indicator.
Is that Roy D Mercer talking
@antifactionprogman - could be, but explain so the gaps are filled.
To align the mill that way you did is wrong, you have to align the table, because otherwise you aligned the spindle only for one point. Just to drill a hole at this pont.
SPi= Swiss Precision Instruments
Know thst would be handy
T=up