The duel point system adds dwell to the circuit to provide a hotter spark, even more so at very high engine speeds. The longer the points stay closed, the more saturated the coil becomes with voltage, and the hotter the spark when the field collapses.
The issue there is speed at 1200 RPMs the points stay closed longer than 2400 RPMs The Coil is a energy storage device. It requires time to charge up to max energy. The points dwell is fixed and cannot change. so if the charge on the coil is maxed at 1200 RPMs then at 4800 RPMs the charge in the coil will be much less. Thus energy will be much less. And so the spark.The big advantage of HEI system was dwell was not constant and could be adjusted to optimize spark as RPMs Increased,Thus allowing for more energy in the coil. This is not possible with any point system,. Point systems are subject to arching when opening the capacitor helps this but eventuality they will be pitied and have higher resistance. Dual points should help this so it will take longer to deteriorate. That is a good thing but other than that I don't see any advantage to them. Even if you stagger the point to increase the dwell it is still fixed and subject to above limitations. Points are vastly inferior to HEI systems.
The reason for the dual point ignition is to increase the "dwell" time, which allows more current to flow through the coil primary, which allows the coil to output a higher voltage spark, allowing you to increase the plug gap and increase engine power.
I just went back and bought a points distributor because I can race my vehicle in classes that require the original points ignition, but allow the use of external boxes. It's actually hard to find one new, 99% are hei / magnetic trigger!
Have you been able to see a better improvement when you have the ignition box hooked up to the points and without the box? My pro street car that I bought few years ago has a SBC in it with a Mallory dual point distributor. I was thinking about putting an MBD billet distributor with coil and their 6 ignition box. But don’t want to get stranded on the road somewhere due to the box going out. And keep seeing reviews where the electronic conversion kits failing also so scared of those too. I bought a older Mallory HyFire IV ignition box I think that was made for the Mallory points distributors plus got the big black Mallory coil that goes with that ignition. You buy chance know if I can get a cleaner burn with the HyFire 4 hooked up to my points? Any suggestions what I could use instead of my points that wouldn’t leave me stranded? I can only use a small distributor since I don’t have much room between my dual tunnel ram and firewall.
You are so close to helping me. What I actually need is to see the wires running from the ignition coil to the Old point distributor how the heck do you hook those up?
I really like your visual but I believe there is a bit of confusion about how the spark is created. When the low voltage circuit is closed a magnetic field is created around the coil. When the points open this field collapses rapidly inducing a current into both the primary and secondary windings. On the primary side this back EMF is absorbed by the condenser (capacitor) in a points system to protect the points from an arc which will burn them. Electronic ignition systems are solid state so there is no contact to burn eliminating the need for a condenser. During the field collapse a much higher voltage is created on the secondary coil windings because the winding count is higher. This higher voltage can jump the gap in the spark plug. This is not unique to automotive ignitions. I have had contacts fail on relays that control coils on hydraulic valves. Every time the contact opened to close the hydraulic valve, the collapsing magnetic field would cause a blue flash inside the relay as the voltage built high enough to jump the gap. The solution for that application is to add a diode around the coil.
Any advice would be appreciated. I have a pertronix module 2 on my golf cart. Any reason why the manufacturer Columbia Par Car had one installed?? My cart just starts without running. Would the module have to be replaced??
If there's ever a emp event or attack you'll miss the point type (especially the dual point type) cause the electro magnetic pulse will fry the pickup and control module instantly, but the points and condenser will survive, the coil is reasonably shielded from the effects of it but not the computerized stuff. Overall where I live in Rainelle WV when solid state ignition came out they sold more electronic ignition stuff money wise than old school points stuff, it break's too and cost much more to replace than points.
Hi. Is it true closeing the point gap as much as posible in reson. gives the coil more time to recharge, giveing a stronger sparp. I find i get good power that way. Mike
Spark energy is dependent saturating the primary coil windings, the number of coil windings, and the amps you can pass through the primary circuit. The points will wear out very quickly if you pass too much current through them. Electronic switching and current limiting electronics allows for more spark energy. Don’t compare ignitions by amperage draw, compare spark lengths.
Just found a YA-11A for a 4cyl but it’s only single point. Love the two-piece Bakelite cap but can’t see it being any better than a stock model A unit. Not really relevant but on my mind.
Points can be filed how many times don't know but the condenser is critical part my issue is nobody makes a good hardened point set for GM ,Ford,Dodge, AMC all made in China or Mexico
run points to trigger a Mopar ECU, the points will last forever as the ECU does the high amp switching electronically, like a high speed relay. Works on all points distributors.
The photocell one of the ignition wire falls off the spark plug and has nowhere to discharge to it'll burn out your photo cell and you'll have to buy a new one my suggestion is not buying that one Mallory
Doesn't an electronic distributor require an ECU to advance or retard the spark timing? I removed the original (broken) ECU from my van and installed a custom ECU with no electronic distributor timing option, and when I floor the gas pedal the engine almost dies before catching up.
A resistor (ballast, resistor wire or coil with built-in resistance) is needed because stock point coils are designed to work at 6v (nominal, 7.4v reality). Due to higher compression engine then they had in the early1950's, the coil does receive 12v when the starter switch is in the start position. When it springs back to the run position only 6v gets delivered to the coil.
I think points are good however with the quality of points now been made in the far East and not lasting I think electronic is better however even electronic can fail
You never explained the cons of electronic distributor and how to know and test when the electronic distributors' magnetic parts stop working. What are the signs and symptoms of a failing or bad electronic distributor?
Points and their respective coils (not to mention plugs & wires) run at a lower output votage (typically 14kv to 18 kv in mid 70's Gm vehicles) at the spark plug. Lower voltage equates to higher current that equals higher plug internal temperatures and shorter life spans for sparkplugs, plug wires and points alike. Electronic ignition systems & their coils typically operate between 30-35 kv output (stock) and upwards to 75kv on modified vehicles. Higher voltage equals lower current, lower internal plug temperature and longer life for wires and plugs alike. And this says nothing about better fuel economy. Ever wonder why back in the day spark plugs, points and plug wires needed changing as often as every 10,000 miles? And now plugs last as long as 150-200k miles now? Well now you know. 😂
I hate electronic ignition cuz if you are ever out in the middle of nowhere where ur mobile phone doesn't get a connection and ur electronic ignition fails you screwed and going for a lonng walk and when you leave ur vehicle out in the middle of nowhere theres a pretty good chance that when you finally get back to where you broke down ur vehicle is now full of bullet holes or its gone, thats why i love points ignition cuz they are easy to fix and ur on ur way even if the points are shot to hell if you have a beer can you can make ur own custom set of points but electronic as much as you all think there the shit yes they are shit
this video should definitely have more views then it has, very nice presentation and information, like the paper cutouts explaining everthing!
The duel point system adds dwell to the circuit to provide a hotter spark, even more so at very high engine speeds. The longer the points stay closed, the more saturated the coil becomes with voltage, and the hotter the spark when the field collapses.
The issue there is speed at 1200 RPMs the points stay closed longer than 2400 RPMs The Coil is a energy storage device. It requires time to charge up to max energy. The points dwell is fixed and cannot change. so if the charge on the coil is maxed at 1200 RPMs then at 4800 RPMs the charge in the coil will be much less. Thus energy will be much less. And so the spark.The big advantage of HEI system was dwell was not constant and could be adjusted to optimize spark as RPMs Increased,Thus allowing for more energy in the coil. This is not possible with any point system,. Point systems are subject to arching when opening the capacitor helps this but eventuality they will be pitied and have higher resistance. Dual points should help this so it will take longer to deteriorate. That is a good thing but other than that I don't see any advantage to them. Even if you stagger the point to increase the dwell it is still fixed and subject to above limitations. Points are vastly inferior to HEI systems.
Thanks for the easy to understand info, I'm now subscribed!
Thank you very much!
Awsome video on points vs electronic ignition.
Awsome presentation. Thanks, Barry at Vintage Metalcraft
The reason for the dual point ignition is to increase the "dwell" time, which allows more current to flow through the coil primary, which allows the coil to output a higher voltage spark, allowing you to increase the plug gap and increase engine power.
I didn't know that. I've always ran from duels
Really well done!! one of the best explanation videos out there,great job ,thank you
That was actually quite informative.
Great video, thanks for taking the time to make this!
I just went back and bought a points distributor because I can race my vehicle in classes that require the original points ignition, but allow the use of external boxes. It's actually hard to find one new, 99% are hei / magnetic trigger!
I found one for $30!! Came with the coil as well!
Have you been able to see a better improvement when you have the ignition box hooked up to the points and without the box?
My pro street car that I bought few years ago has a SBC in it with a Mallory dual point distributor. I was thinking about putting an MBD billet distributor with coil and their 6 ignition box. But don’t want to get stranded on the road somewhere due to the box going out. And keep seeing reviews where the electronic conversion kits failing also so scared of those too.
I bought a older Mallory HyFire IV ignition box I think that was made for the Mallory points distributors plus got the big black Mallory coil that goes with that ignition. You buy chance know if I can get a cleaner burn with the HyFire 4 hooked up to my points?
Any suggestions what I could use instead of my points that wouldn’t leave me stranded? I can only use a small distributor since I don’t have much room between my dual tunnel ram and firewall.
@@Ron_Masterjohn You can't use a dual point distributor with an ignition box, you will have to remove one of the point sets
Thanks for sharing, well explained!
You are so close to helping me. What I actually need is to see the wires running from the ignition coil to the Old point distributor how the heck do you hook those up?
Excellent as always!
I really like your visual but I believe there is a bit of confusion about how the spark is created. When the low voltage circuit is closed a magnetic field is created around the coil. When the points open this field collapses rapidly inducing a current into both the primary and secondary windings. On the primary side this back EMF is absorbed by the condenser (capacitor) in a points system to protect the points from an arc which will burn them. Electronic ignition systems are solid state so there is no contact to burn eliminating the need for a condenser. During the field collapse a much higher voltage is created on the secondary coil windings because the winding count is higher. This higher voltage can jump the gap in the spark plug. This is not unique to automotive ignitions. I have had contacts fail on relays that control coils on hydraulic valves. Every time the contact opened to close the hydraulic valve, the collapsing magnetic field would cause a blue flash inside the relay as the voltage built high enough to jump the gap. The solution for that application is to add a diode around the coil.
Great explanation thanks
Any advice would be appreciated. I have a pertronix module 2 on my golf cart. Any reason why the manufacturer Columbia Par Car had one installed?? My cart just starts without running. Would the module have to be replaced??
if u are useing a chevy drop in a HEI carry extra kidney inside the cap just one hot wire to hook up run fore ever HAPPY TRAILS
If there's ever a emp event or attack you'll miss the point type (especially the dual point type) cause the electro magnetic pulse will fry the pickup and control module instantly, but the points and condenser will survive, the coil is reasonably shielded from the effects of it but not the computerized stuff.
Overall where I live in Rainelle WV when solid state ignition came out they sold more electronic ignition stuff money wise than old school points stuff, it break's too and cost much more to replace than points.
Just keep about 50 new modules in a faraday box, they'll be fine
Hi. Is it true closeing the point gap as much as posible in reson. gives the coil more time to recharge, giveing a stronger sparp. I find i get good power that way. Mike
How do you tell if the electronic ignition piece is bad?
What is a ballast resistor?
Which one has better spark?
Spark energy is dependent saturating the primary coil windings, the number of coil windings, and the amps you can pass through the primary circuit. The points will wear out very quickly if you pass too much current through them. Electronic switching and current limiting electronics allows for more spark energy. Don’t compare ignitions by amperage draw, compare spark lengths.
Just found a YA-11A for a 4cyl but it’s only single point. Love the two-piece Bakelite cap but can’t see it being any better than a stock model A unit. Not really relevant but on my mind.
Points can be filed how many times don't know but the condenser is critical part my issue is nobody makes a good hardened point set for GM ,Ford,Dodge, AMC all made in China or Mexico
run points to trigger a Mopar ECU, the points will last forever as the ECU does the high amp switching electronically, like a high speed relay. Works on all points distributors.
The photocell one of the ignition wire falls off the spark plug and has nowhere to discharge to it'll burn out your photo cell and you'll have to buy a new one my suggestion is not buying that one Mallory
Doesn't an electronic distributor require an ECU to advance or retard the spark timing?
I removed the original (broken) ECU from my van and installed a custom ECU with no electronic distributor timing option, and when I floor the gas pedal the engine almost dies before catching up.
double points is longer spark duration speed trick
Youre piston end cap looks bent id be replacing that.😂
Why is a ballast resistor needed?
A resistor (ballast, resistor wire or coil with built-in resistance) is needed because stock point coils are designed to work at 6v (nominal, 7.4v reality). Due to higher compression engine then they had in the early1950's, the coil does receive 12v when the starter switch is in the start position. When it springs back to the run position only 6v gets delivered to the coil.
How does that affect your findings?
I think points are good however with the quality of points now been made in the far East and not lasting I think electronic is better however even electronic can fail
You never explained the cons of electronic distributor and how to know and test when the electronic distributors' magnetic parts stop working. What are the signs and symptoms of a failing or bad electronic distributor?
Points and their respective coils (not to mention plugs & wires) run at a lower output votage (typically 14kv to 18 kv in mid 70's Gm vehicles) at the spark plug. Lower voltage equates to higher current that equals higher plug internal temperatures and shorter life spans for sparkplugs, plug wires and points alike. Electronic ignition systems & their coils typically operate between 30-35 kv output (stock) and upwards to 75kv on modified vehicles. Higher voltage equals lower current, lower internal plug temperature and longer life for wires and plugs alike. And this says nothing about better fuel economy.
Ever wonder why back in the day spark plugs, points and plug wires needed changing as often as every 10,000 miles? And now plugs last as long as 150-200k miles now? Well now you know. 😂
I hate electronic ignition cuz if you are ever out in the middle of nowhere where ur mobile phone doesn't get a connection and ur electronic ignition fails you screwed and going for a lonng walk and when you leave ur vehicle out in the middle of nowhere theres a pretty good chance that when you finally get back to where you broke down ur vehicle is now full of bullet holes or its gone, thats why i love points ignition cuz they are easy to fix and ur on ur way even if the points are shot to hell if you have a beer can you can make ur own custom set of points but electronic as much as you all think there the shit yes they are shit
You're full of good vibes ☺️🌈🦄🌸🌼
just keep an old points dizzy in the trunk. Its a 5 minute swap out and then tell us when you EVER needed to use it.
We dont need a history on engines
Nah, that was the best explanation/ breakdown I've heard by far! Especially for all the people just learning