Not sure if we played the same game. Not interactive enough? Every placement on the board, triggering the buildings, and the competition for astronauts is 100% interaction. Racing to get various goodies from the corps is tense. I loved the game from a demo of one round. Admittedly I haven't played a whole game yet because it's not available here in the US yet, but I think this is a stellar game that will be in my top 10 or even top 5 with the likes of On Mars and Ark Nova. And I'll say it here, I liked it more than SETI, which is a terrific game, but not as good as this one.
Depends on your definition of interaction - having spaces blocked or things taken is in every single Euro, but it's direct interaction. If I take something before you, or take a spot, pretty much always I'm doing it for me, not because you're doing it, I wouldn't even know you were about to do it in advance and the solo AI does that by default.
dice tower made a rules error in their review. There is a area majority mini-game for each row on the moon when you decide which worker go on which personal board. It is a highly interactive mechanism and it is probably the most novel concept in this game.
Yeah, seldom a played a more tense euro game in recent years. Plans are foiled constantly, edge of the seat stuff. Yes you would almost never hurt someone else if it doesn’t serve you but that does not mean there is no interaction. Often enough you have several good options some of which will also deny your opponent opportunities. As far as euros go, this is as good as it gets
@@delorean-88 That little mini-game is about as interactive as the game gets and even then, I've never seen it be more than "oh i get a worker this round, cool, I was doing something else, but I'll take that nice perk" - And even then it's not the most interesting mechanism in the world.
When you swap an astronaut with the lunar gateway it does not come back to your hand but goes into your base to generate a bonus for you depending on placement.
I fully agree with you on this one. I played it once - a fine game but nothing too special. Won’t seek it out actively but if someone wanted to play it I would happily join in. In particular, I didn’t find the drafting of the workers & resources at the start of each round particularly exciting. They could have come up with something more strategic and embedded in the player strategies.
I had the same reacton at Essen. But could it play. (Some guys quit after some time and we got their seat. ) I liked it. I preorded it, but they (sorry we´re french) aren´t the best planners....
Ha ha indeed, I saw various calamites while I was waiting. They left one game set up but with no one to teach it and people kept thinking it was available. Honestly useless organisation.
This is one I was very curious about as I enjoyed Autobahn. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Seems like one I'd still like to try, but not gonna go out of my way for the time being. I'm looking forward to Baghdad, as that will be them back with Ally Cat. Thanks again for your thoughts!
Baghdad I've tried the initial proto copy of. It's pretty decent - dry as a bone and all about generating VP's but it's very simple, quite fast and has agonising decisions over cards.
Our first 4 player game of this ended with scores of 101, 102, 103 and 104. I am not convinced of the argument that you can call a winner early. Then again, our game could have been an epic outlier of closeness.
@@TheBrokenMeepleOur first 4p game with the basic corps was also something like 94-94-91-89 so I can't think that you know who is winning early. And of course if you have gamers not of the same level, it is not the game's fault either. It's a gaming group problem.
Thanks so much for your honest and thorough review! As usual. You've helped me avoid giving into the FOMO and hype around it. I can save my valuable limited shelf space for something else.
The game length complaint is probably my biggest area of disagreement with your reviews. Game length - as presented by publishers - is obviously a lie. Publishers can't put subjective time length on boxes or - ironically - no one would buy the game. But when they put "60 minutes," you roast the living snot out of them. What do we actually want? Game length is entirely subjective, and yet you treat it like it should be an objective standard! What on earth do we expect from analog gaming, I wonder? The larger the game, the more complex it is, it will take longer to setup and potentially to play! Why. Is. This. Such. A. Surprise? I'm of the mind for publishers to remove - yes, REMOVE - game length from boxes! Just get rid of it. Gamers will whine about it for a while, but then we'll realize that the presence or absence of arbitrary game length from game boxes means literally NOTHING. And it will remove the second most subjective aspect of board games (with art being the first). :) I have yet to dismiss a game purely because it plays long. Call me old-fashioned, but when I signed up to be a board gamer - an analog gamer - I wasn't signing up to have the instant setup and teardown of a video game. I signed up for the analog, elongated experience of sitting around a table with other humans who use the restroom, smoke, drink, eat, and chit-chat all while playing a game. We've been way too spoiled in the west with time. Board games take time. I've played Coconuts and had it take a WHILE because of randomness, laughter, bathroom breaks, etc. Game length is too subjective to be taken this seriously. :)
I totally get why people don't place a big reliance on length. For me it depends on the game. I accept that games like Lacerda's, Ark Nova, Hegemony, etc have to be long and are long. There's a ton going on in those games, lots of mechanics to juggle and they are certainly more brain burny. But when you go down the scale in complexity and scale, so should the length. Also I believe in this one I actually said the length was about fine for what it was, just maybe borderline long at 4 players. Publishers are more than welcome to put lengths on boxes but they shouldn't lie about it. Put a time for expected setup/teach or put an accurate time for game length, don't hide it behind a fake 60 minute timer to fool consumers. Tell me on the box that Hegemony is a 4 hour game, at least it's honest then. People do use the excuse about sitting around a table with friends, but I don't feel that works. You can have too much of a good thing and you can do ANY activity with friends and still enjoy it. I was forced to play Lego Fortnite the other night with some friends to entertain one of their children online. But with friends I still enjoyed myself. Would I then go back on and play it again by myself? No! Because time is precious to all of us now, with such limited time available for hobbies etc, efficiency of time is more important than ever.
@@TheBrokenMeeple All great and valid points. :) I wasn't yelling at you, this is just something I see and hear a LOT in this hobby, mostly from people with whom I play in person. Yes, we could do anything with friends and enjoy it, but that's the point I'm making: when we sit down to board game, we're signing an unwritten contract that this is how we're spending our time. But board gamers - more than ANY other hobbyist - complain a LOT about time spent in their hobby. I never, ever hear golfers or snooker players complain about the time it takes to participate in their hobby. I guess that's the main thrust of my confusion. :)
Interesting, game length stated on the box is one of the most boring complaints. I've played Ark Nova with experienced players and "quick" players and our turns are super quick. I play it with other players and it is like they've never thought about what their next action is until it is their turn. (I can often plan 3 turns+ in Ark Nova before it is my turn. We finish that game esp on BGA 2p in roughly 30-40 minutes. I've had 1.5 hour War of the Ring games, 1.5 hour Lacerda Inventions games.... Many people call these LONG games.
@@TateRoberts_007 The problem with some gamers is that they are taking the game too seriously which is causing analysis paralysis and therefore increasing the length of the game. My problem is massive downtime with certain players in my group. I now have to choose which games to play with certain individuals.
Great review, but I disagree on a few points as I really love this game. Player interaction is much more a thing than you say, but I take your point on the sparseness on the moon at 2 players. Think one of us has the lunar gateway rule wrong, I think the astronaut you take has to go in your base and not your hand. I love the artwork, don’t think it’s bland in any way and I think the rule book and iconography are very intuitive. Like I always say, it would be boring if we all liked the same things. Thanks Luke.
What art work is there? It's mostly grey with some iconography. The best art is on the cards and you might not even do that much with them and it's not stellar art. I meant base, not hand, but essentially it's getting a use out of a colour of astronaut you don't like. I don't get where the interaction is though - aside from being blocked by people which is standard in every Euro game, but you're not blocking by choice, it's just because you're doing your own thing and it happens to interfere with others.
@ The artwork on the corporations and iconography is very reminiscent of the 50’s/60’s era space race and it totally fits the theme. I found the interaction came through placement of buildings that is definitely tactical as it can stop other players gaining astronauts at the end of the round. I thought it offered something different enough from other Euro’s and as a whole package was very impressive.Hence No. 3 in my top 10 new to me of 2024.
Haven't even seen a copy of it in front of me, afraid that's not going to happen, the list is already recorded, but I always do a revised list later down the line when I've played other games.
Magic madhouse literally had it on discount just now (perhaps it’s still on…?) If you have told me I would have got on the car right the way and bring the game to you /.\
Do you really think it is that good ? I was keen on getting it when I heard about it before Essen but then the uninspiring theme, the bland look and the lack of innovative mechanics stopped me from getting it. And post Essen, nobody is talking about it any more with the BGG score of (only) 7.7 also suggesting that this game is nothing special…
Arborea only has a 7.6 on bgg as well but oh my world. It has shot up into my top 3 euro games of all time since playing it. And ever since then I have been curious about Dani Garcia other titles. Although somehow given there are always other priorities so I don’t really get to try them all. From what I hear daitoshi is the complete version of all his previous games. I have seen good ratings hence I am very curious what Luke’s take on the game will be
If you really wanted wanted to play it you could have bought in on retail in UK BEFORE Essen. You didn’t have to wait until November. Mine arrived from Thirsty Meeple on 27th September. Granted you were probably focussed on getting to Essen at that stage, but if you had really wanted to try it you could have played it before Essen. As it turns out this game lost out because it was available before Essen. Everyone coming back from Essen had loads of new games to get to the table and pre Essen games like Shackleton’s Base instantly became history and didn’t get the gameplay it deserved in my opinion. For me it competes with Seti & Civolution for best 2024 games
My biggest gripe is the runaway leader as well, or should I say obvious losers. Played at 4p and 3p and after round one it's been clear to see who will lose. The three companies have barely any interaction or "plays" between them it seems to me
Not sure if we played the same game. Not interactive enough? Every placement on the board, triggering the buildings, and the competition for astronauts is 100% interaction. Racing to get various goodies from the corps is tense. I loved the game from a demo of one round. Admittedly I haven't played a whole game yet because it's not available here in the US yet, but I think this is a stellar game that will be in my top 10 or even top 5 with the likes of On Mars and Ark Nova. And I'll say it here, I liked it more than SETI, which is a terrific game, but not as good as this one.
Depends on your definition of interaction - having spaces blocked or things taken is in every single Euro, but it's direct interaction. If I take something before you, or take a spot, pretty much always I'm doing it for me, not because you're doing it, I wouldn't even know you were about to do it in advance and the solo AI does that by default.
dice tower made a rules error in their review. There is a area majority mini-game for each row on the moon when you decide which worker go on which personal board. It is a highly interactive mechanism and it is probably the most novel concept in this game.
Yeah, seldom a played a more tense euro game in recent years. Plans are foiled constantly, edge of the seat stuff. Yes you would almost never hurt someone else if it doesn’t serve you but that does not mean there is no interaction. Often enough you have several good options some of which will also deny your opponent opportunities. As far as euros go, this is as good as it gets
@@delorean-88 That little mini-game is about as interactive as the game gets and even then, I've never seen it be more than "oh i get a worker this round, cool, I was doing something else, but I'll take that nice perk" - And even then it's not the most interesting mechanism in the world.
@@TheBrokenMeepleBut the entire area majority scoring element on the planet is interactive. Area majority scoring always is.
When you swap an astronaut with the lunar gateway it does not come back to your hand but goes into your base to generate a bonus for you depending on placement.
I’m waiting for RadioShackleton base. this was on my interest list, but not if it doesn’t work for two players.
I fully agree with you on this one. I played it once - a fine game but nothing too special. Won’t seek it out actively but if someone wanted to play it I would happily join in. In particular, I didn’t find the drafting of the workers & resources at the start of each round particularly exciting. They could have come up with something more strategic and embedded in the player strategies.
That's kind of my view, it's fine, but nothing special and once you get over the Corps variety, there's nothing new or innovative or that interesting.
I like your honest reflection on the game, thank you.
My pleasure!
I had the same reacton at Essen. But could it play. (Some guys quit after some time and we got their seat. ) I liked it. I preorded it, but they (sorry we´re french) aren´t the best planners....
Ha ha indeed, I saw various calamites while I was waiting. They left one game set up but with no one to teach it and people kept thinking it was available. Honestly useless organisation.
This is one I was very curious about as I enjoyed Autobahn. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Seems like one I'd still like to try, but not gonna go out of my way for the time being. I'm looking forward to Baghdad, as that will be them back with Ally Cat. Thanks again for your thoughts!
Baghdad I've tried the initial proto copy of. It's pretty decent - dry as a bone and all about generating VP's but it's very simple, quite fast and has agonising decisions over cards.
@TheBrokenMeeple always down for fast with agonizing choices. Cool to hear you've already tried it!
Our first 4 player game of this ended with scores of 101, 102, 103 and 104. I am not convinced of the argument that you can call a winner early. Then again, our game could have been an epic outlier of closeness.
I suspect that was due to people being on the same playing field.
@@TheBrokenMeepleOur first 4p game with the basic corps was also something like 94-94-91-89 so I can't think that you know who is winning early. And of course if you have gamers not of the same level, it is not the game's fault either. It's a gaming group problem.
Hey, I'll buy it!
Thanks so much for your honest and thorough review! As usual. You've helped me avoid giving into the FOMO and hype around it. I can save my valuable limited shelf space for something else.
Glad I could help as always!
The game length complaint is probably my biggest area of disagreement with your reviews. Game length - as presented by publishers - is obviously a lie. Publishers can't put subjective time length on boxes or - ironically - no one would buy the game. But when they put "60 minutes," you roast the living snot out of them. What do we actually want? Game length is entirely subjective, and yet you treat it like it should be an objective standard! What on earth do we expect from analog gaming, I wonder? The larger the game, the more complex it is, it will take longer to setup and potentially to play! Why. Is. This. Such. A. Surprise? I'm of the mind for publishers to remove - yes, REMOVE - game length from boxes! Just get rid of it. Gamers will whine about it for a while, but then we'll realize that the presence or absence of arbitrary game length from game boxes means literally NOTHING. And it will remove the second most subjective aspect of board games (with art being the first). :)
I have yet to dismiss a game purely because it plays long. Call me old-fashioned, but when I signed up to be a board gamer - an analog gamer - I wasn't signing up to have the instant setup and teardown of a video game. I signed up for the analog, elongated experience of sitting around a table with other humans who use the restroom, smoke, drink, eat, and chit-chat all while playing a game. We've been way too spoiled in the west with time. Board games take time. I've played Coconuts and had it take a WHILE because of randomness, laughter, bathroom breaks, etc. Game length is too subjective to be taken this seriously. :)
I totally get why people don't place a big reliance on length. For me it depends on the game. I accept that games like Lacerda's, Ark Nova, Hegemony, etc have to be long and are long. There's a ton going on in those games, lots of mechanics to juggle and they are certainly more brain burny. But when you go down the scale in complexity and scale, so should the length.
Also I believe in this one I actually said the length was about fine for what it was, just maybe borderline long at 4 players.
Publishers are more than welcome to put lengths on boxes but they shouldn't lie about it. Put a time for expected setup/teach or put an accurate time for game length, don't hide it behind a fake 60 minute timer to fool consumers. Tell me on the box that Hegemony is a 4 hour game, at least it's honest then.
People do use the excuse about sitting around a table with friends, but I don't feel that works. You can have too much of a good thing and you can do ANY activity with friends and still enjoy it. I was forced to play Lego Fortnite the other night with some friends to entertain one of their children online. But with friends I still enjoyed myself. Would I then go back on and play it again by myself? No!
Because time is precious to all of us now, with such limited time available for hobbies etc, efficiency of time is more important than ever.
@@TheBrokenMeeple All great and valid points. :) I wasn't yelling at you, this is just something I see and hear a LOT in this hobby, mostly from people with whom I play in person. Yes, we could do anything with friends and enjoy it, but that's the point I'm making: when we sit down to board game, we're signing an unwritten contract that this is how we're spending our time. But board gamers - more than ANY other hobbyist - complain a LOT about time spent in their hobby. I never, ever hear golfers or snooker players complain about the time it takes to participate in their hobby. I guess that's the main thrust of my confusion. :)
Interesting, game length stated on the box is one of the most boring complaints. I've played Ark Nova with experienced players and "quick" players and our turns are super quick. I play it with other players and it is like they've never thought about what their next action is until it is their turn. (I can often plan 3 turns+ in Ark Nova before it is my turn. We finish that game esp on BGA 2p in roughly 30-40 minutes. I've had 1.5 hour War of the Ring games, 1.5 hour Lacerda Inventions games.... Many people call these LONG games.
@@TateRoberts_007 The problem with some gamers is that they are taking the game too seriously which is causing analysis paralysis and therefore increasing the length of the game. My problem is massive downtime with certain players in my group. I now have to choose which games to play with certain individuals.
Look up the Moon Rap by Kevin Temmer. The moon is dangerous and evil.
Great review, but I disagree on a few points as I really love this game. Player interaction is much more a thing than you say, but I take your point on the sparseness on the moon at 2 players. Think one of us has the lunar gateway rule wrong, I think the astronaut you take has to go in your base and not your hand. I love the artwork, don’t think it’s bland in any way and I think the rule book and iconography are very intuitive. Like I always say, it would be boring if we all liked the same things. Thanks Luke.
What art work is there? It's mostly grey with some iconography. The best art is on the cards and you might not even do that much with them and it's not stellar art. I meant base, not hand, but essentially it's getting a use out of a colour of astronaut you don't like. I don't get where the interaction is though - aside from being blocked by people which is standard in every Euro game, but you're not blocking by choice, it's just because you're doing your own thing and it happens to interfere with others.
@ The artwork on the corporations and iconography is very reminiscent of the 50’s/60’s era space race and it totally fits the theme. I found the interaction came through placement of buildings that is definitely tactical as it can stop other players gaining astronauts at the end of the round. I thought it offered something different enough from other Euro’s and as a whole package was very impressive.Hence No. 3 in my top 10 new to me of 2024.
The artwork isnt good i agree
The artwork isnt good i agree
Luke! Before you rank 2024 games could you please also review daitoshi before you wrap up
Pleaseeeeeee
Haven't even seen a copy of it in front of me, afraid that's not going to happen, the list is already recorded, but I always do a revised list later down the line when I've played other games.
Magic madhouse literally had it on discount just now (perhaps it’s still on…?)
If you have told me I would have got on the car right the way and bring the game to you /.\
Do you really think it is that good ? I was keen on getting it when I heard about it before Essen but then the uninspiring theme, the bland look and the lack of innovative mechanics stopped me from getting it. And post Essen, nobody is talking about it any more with the BGG score of (only) 7.7 also suggesting that this game is nothing special…
@a-c-m nothing about Daitoshi says to me that I would like it.
Arborea only has a 7.6 on bgg as well but oh my world. It has shot up into my top 3 euro games of all time since playing it. And ever since then I have been curious about Dani Garcia other titles.
Although somehow given there are always other priorities so I don’t really get to try them all. From what I hear daitoshi is the complete version of all his previous games. I have seen good ratings hence I am very curious what Luke’s take on the game will be
If you really wanted wanted to play it you could have bought in on retail in UK BEFORE Essen. You didn’t have to wait until November. Mine arrived from Thirsty Meeple on 27th September. Granted you were probably focussed on getting to Essen at that stage, but if you had really wanted to try it you could have played it before Essen. As it turns out this game lost out because it was available before Essen. Everyone coming back from Essen had loads of new games to get to the table and pre Essen games like Shackleton’s Base instantly became history and didn’t get the gameplay it deserved in my opinion. For me it competes with Seti & Civolution for best 2024 games
The game sold out at Essen I don't think it hurt it that much.
My biggest gripe is the runaway leader as well, or should I say obvious losers. Played at 4p and 3p and after round one it's been clear to see who will lose.
The three companies have barely any interaction or "plays" between them it seems to me
They don't interact with each other at all - they are completely different.
Well, you were right about SETI and Black Forest, so you're probably right about this one as well.
I'm just glad to hear you believe in Jesus
Let me guess: you didn't like it, again? Christ! You sure you like what you do for a living?
I liked it fine, remember, it's a true ten point scale 😉 Also I don't do this for a living. 😏
Fair enough. Cheers 🥂@@TheBrokenMeeple