The DLC making it so the Golden Order is a result of an extended game of whispers - based on outdated information and corrupted by Marika's biases and desire for vengeance - of the Greater Will's desires is kinda hilarious in a way
@@dontaejones7419 Count Ymir also reveals that because "we are made of stardust" we are also descendants of and part of the Greater Will. The only difference is that the Elden Beast is to the creatures of The Lands Between what the Sun is to us creatures of Earth. So I think the Greater Will truly is the collective laws of physics and of man. It's very much a Berserk idea in that way. That there is no higher power out there, only the collective will of the people and certain "special" people who acquire enough power to influence the people around them and the world for better or worse.
@@dontaejones7419 Worse than that since Marika had to abandon her flesh & humanity to become a god it more or less just takes over Marika but with her memories forcing order everywhere. Remember godhood is a prison. The level of control over her probably varied. Finally fading away as she learned to resist it & shattered when Godwyn dies. Only to realize she became the exact same monster that existed before her as a god. Then shattering the ring.
Please, never feel stupid. Your videos provide an excellent jumping off point for thoughtful discussion. We learn about our worlds by interacting with them. Mistakes are made, and from them we learn and grow.
I agree 100% I may not agree with your conclusion or how you interpreted evidence to reach that conclusion, but I've never thought of you or your content as stupid. Your videos (that I've seen) are well thought out and well researched. Sometimes the questions you've asked don't have a definitive answer. FromSoft games are known for providing few definitive answers. You do great work with the material they provide.
Surely a stupid person would never stop to consider, "wait, what if my founding assumptions are all wrong? What happens to the topic if those ideas just aren't true?"
I prefer this take on ER lore. To me, it's almost like a biblical tale.... something rich in metaphor and unclear on specific timeframes, or how certain events ACTUALLY happened. But it also has a 'canon' story to it that's more or less implied to be a fully cogent and tangible truth. It's just one that none of the people reading it can ever fully understand. You know only what God wants you to know. What you access from your mortal, sinful place in the universe is but a fraction of what ever was, is, or will be. Because of that, there are all of these denominations, institutional and intellectual forces in the world... all of them built upon some fundamental presumptions about what the text is communicating to us. Or perhaps what the practical meaning of it is, how to best apply it and move forward with it. In doing so, many presumptions are taken on faith. And a rational framework emerges, one that aims to explain why we suffer and what we must do. But the map is not the territory. And because of that, institutions large enough to run nations have risen and collapsed. I guess their understanding was still incomplete. One thing I notice, and maybe this is getting too close to the real world but... not only are their separate denominations, but entire different religions taking readings of the text. And they fight constantly over which is right, because nobody knows the full answer. However, it makes sense that people fight over this in the real world - everyone involved believes the fate of our race hinges on us getting it right. That's something I can completely understand as a basic matter of possessing human empathy and rationale. It is the root of so much tragedy, but I do not know how to stop people from being people. What I can't understand is doing it in a video game world. We can have conflicting reads on text and subtext here and nothing is lost. The truth is, everyone is getting it wrong in the sense that there probably isn't a singular right that is remotely comprehensive enough to bury further questioning. Elden Ring gets a lot more interesting to think and talk about when you stop presuming there is a correct, ultimate explanation and start realizing there are many possible explanations, and that by design of the work, you will never have an understanding of it all that is complete enough to form a singular, absolute truth of it. That's for the creator to think about. The greatest joy of the game's storytelling is that by removing our ability to see the 'canonical' storyline directly, we can essentially pull a near infinite amount of stories from it. Again, it's a lot like the Bible. If ever you think you've figured all of it out, you missed the point... there are things referenced in that book, that aren't meant to be understood by humans in a fully concrete way. It paints you pictures of many things... pieces of truths, the full extent of which are implicitly not comprehensible by mortals. And I think some lore-interpreters for this game mistakenly believe they can mantle a full understanding of divinity by becoming historians.
'The Fingers must be crazy or deceiving us.' Ymir's questline be like 'correct'. Good video, can't wait to see more theories about this now that the DLC has been out for awhile.
even Sir Gideon knew what was up before the dlc he truly is all knowing if you don't know what i meant check the Lord's Divine Fortification description
Super important what you said about believing the Narrator (i.e the item descriptions)! People get downright paranoid about not trusting what's in front of them in this game sometimes, and some foundation is necessary. After all, what's the point of trying to figure out the lore if you don't believe in anything? I think it's super healthy to always take definitive statements in item descriptions at face value - if a description wants us to be uncertain, it will use uncertain language.
There is definitely a contrarian bent to a lot of people's interpretations that just leads to them inventing nonsense basically from whole-cloth to justify why everything we read *must* be a lie.
Examples? Since I don't remember items that say they are seperate. I only remember dialouge that says that, which comes from people that don't know the full context. So it would be nice if you could remind me.@@dgalloway107
@@dgalloway107 Where exactly? Because I can't remember a single item that does lie to the player about Radagon and Marika. It never mentions that Radagon = Marika because it's never relevant to said item.
My thoughts about the three fingers is that they are the most honest out of all, what we know is that they communicate via their fingerprints, they can't change those and they are pretty much repeating themselves all the time and well they go straight to the point, Burn everything with the yellow Chaos Flame, the only other one is hayetta who tells us what their fingerprints say, in order to communicate with the two fingers the message has to go through the two finger themselves since they share what they greater will says and from what we saw they aren't actually communicating at the moment or since who knows when they haven't talked and the the message has to come through another individual that being the finger reader.
Your videos are a sick jumping off point for a lot of deep thinking and conversation and thats why im here for them. I often disagree with you but the endeavor you took to dive so deep is foundational for any thought i had at all on the matter at hand.
I like your video man I'm happy you came to ask more questions and expand but I do believe you made a wonderful points in the first video thanks for doing these narrative breakdowns I love them ❤❤❤
If the Greater Will did not have sentience or any other motivation than “order,” it would just be full-sending on Shabriri and the Flame of Frenzy’s plan. Their plan is to melt everything into One, which would create ultimate order.
I actuality do believe that the Two Fingers are lying, or are actuality delusional. When you defeat Morgott, and your path to the Erdtree is blocked, that seemed to have stumpted the Two Fingers (the one in the Roundtable Hold, specifically, since we know there are more than one Two Finger). I think each Two Finger have wills, and desires of their own, in similar ways to how priests in our own world, and the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold had its own plans, and that plan was to have the Player Tarnished to become the Elden Lord, in the way that the Roundtable Two Fingers wanted it, and it was leveraging its supposed connection to the Greater Will, to claim some authority, but once the path to the Erdtree was blocked, the Two Finger didn't know what to do, and from that point, the Two Finger goes silent for the rest of the game.
Nice video, as always. I really enjoy your channel, especially the god of war series, where your presentation of the Story was really eyeopening to me. When I saw your first eldenring video I was a little afraid. Eldenring / the soulsborne Saga as a whole is not only unique in its storytelling, themes and presentation of its lore, but there is already a big lore community, dedicated to understand every aspect of it. But, the way you explain certain aspects of the lore seem to suit your channel fine and are really enjoyable to watch. Im happy to see, that you face the challenge of the wonderful lore of eldenring with an open mind and your unique perspective. I didnt expected to see "big lore reveals" in These Videos of yours, and was suprised to see ur style of storytelling revealing the Inspirations of themes in eldenring. Thank you very much! (( I think, the narrator in the item descriptions is trustworthy, when it makes Statements. But whenever "it is said" / "some say" is used, more often than not, there is more to the Story. I still agree to your conclusion, its just a rule I use for my own Research ^^' ))
It's also interesting that the Elden Beast has a grab attack that looks exactly like how Marika's position like hung up by a rune and impaled. So I think the Elden Beast is the one who punished Marika, but whether on it own accord or by the Greater Will orders it's unknown.
I really like the theory that it was the Elden Beast retaliating against Marika for shattering the ring, it would explain why the beast seems to have a huge fracture in its “torso” area
The Greater Will is not a thing that is present in the lands between. it acts only through emissaries and proxy gods. That doesn't preclude it having its own will, but it also doesn't care about the lands between enough to micromanage it. Only when threatened does it take direct notice. It has a will. It is an outer god, and like every other outer god, it wants/has a preferred outcome. And like every other outer god it attempts to achieve thise outcome with a proxy god and their consort, the elden lords.
For discussions like this, establishing what you mean with terms is always helpful! So, as I understand and use them: Intelligence - the capacity to take in information, analyze it, make adjustments, and respond to it. Problem solving and retention of knowledge. Sentience - the capacity to perceive your environment and react to it and the ability to be able to feel emotion Sapience - consciousness and deeper thought. To be able to rationalize and have what we call higher order thinking, planning in advance, and conceptualize. From how I remember things: the greater will is an outer god. It is not native to the lands between, and with its arrival, it usurped what was here and made the elden ring. The golden order was created after and sought conquest. We are told that the two fingers interpret and communicate with the greater will, and they are then translated by the finger readers. This is a game of telephone, lol. Sentience fits what we know, but we don't know if it is sapient or intelligent. It could have arrived by coincidence, accident, or like an animal wandering for food. The fingers could be "communicating" like how one would with their dog or a baby: observing its mood and reaction to infer what it wants, then the finger readers relay to us what the fingers think it wants. Or it is sapient and is communicating properly. We don't know
I already commented but I wanted to leave this Item description from the game here. I think it perfectly hints at what the writers at Fromsoftware were doing by making the Greater Will seem sentient when it in fact isnt. Flock's Canvas Talisman: The figures represent the flock at prayer, their firm belief in the intangible inspiring even the solitary founder of their religion. What is faith if not an affirmation? Its quite clear to me that Fromsoftware intends the player to question the validity of those in power. Even those who say they can communicate and receive mandates from "God". Belief in the intangible from the common folk and even up to the founders(Marika/Fingers) of a religion. Faith is simply an affirmation, a declaration, a statement of something that may or may not be true.
Great video! Making mistakes and discovering conterevidence to them is the essence of learning! Nothing wrong with that at all! Love to see the journey of discovery that people find themselves on.
Speaking to Radagon’s motivations in the game he is established as a fundamentalist. He is someone with a very black and white view of the Golden Order and what it entails. The idea that a Tarnished could come in and reformat the Elden Ring goes against everything he believes about the Golden Order itself being perfect and flawless. Ironically when his “God”; the greater will, is tasking us with fixing things it’s their most devout follower who blocks our path.
I’ll start with this. You already missed a vital point. When Bernal says “we refuse to become your pawns.” Really puts the point to the flame there. From whether or not it’s sentient all the way up to why Merika does what she did to escape her prison.
If the Noks believe they invoked the ire of the Greater Will, but the people of the lands between do not understand everything about the Greater Will, could the Noks be misunderstanding and only understanding the genocide and persecution of the Golden Order as invoking the ire of the Greater Will?
What’ll really blow your mind is when you realize how well Elden Ring cosmology aligns with so many real-world ancient mystical belief systems, such as Gnosticism
The only aspect I think you should examine in this discussion is cultural context. The first part of this is to look into any possible localization issues that may obscure the meanings the creators were aiming to get across in the text. That's hard to do if you aren't a native speaker of Japanese (I'm not). Luckily, at this point I believe there are some threads about this on Reddit. Next would be the possible impact of Shinto on the game (I know GRR Martin isn't Japanese or Shinto, but he's intelligent enough to incorporate the appropriate concepts into his writing). I think we see many Kami throughout the game, including the Elden Beast, the Erdtree, maybe even the imps, golems, watchdogs, and crystal beings. If the game is more in-line with Shinto concepts, the GW might not be an entity with awareness. But I'm aware how challenging it would liked be to incorporate these topics into the discussion. I don't think less of your video for their absence, and I agree with your interpretation of the evidence available.
It wouldn't be a Fromsoftware game if there weren't ambiguous motivations to pick apart from all the characters. It keeps us engaged with the story long after the game itself is over.
You cover a lot of games. There will always be people with the time and focus to hyper-fixate on fewer games and explore their lore even more thoroughly. The fact you engaged with the criticisms seriously enough to make this video shows you gave it as thorough a look as it deserves. And for what its worth I don't think you made stupid mistakes in the prior video, you had a read that made a lot of sense, but it was built on a couple assumptions that were worth questioning. The ER lore community has a ton of disagreements on everything, with all kinds of evidence for many theories, pretty hard to make a case for anything and not get slammed by a million comments that disagree.
Great video and I appreciate you going back and presenting these alternate ideas. I still disagree with your conlusion that the Greater Will is a sentient/acting force especially with regards to your evidence from the Two Fingers in particular. I think the devs, on a surface level reading, want the player to believe everything that is written in the item descriptions is true. But when one takes a step back like you did in this video I think it becomes very clear that they want the player to doubt or think more critically on the "facts" in the descriptions. Taking this approach does not, in my opinion, leave the story flailing in the wind like I'm sure it would feel like for anyone trying to pin down every event and concept in this game. It rather forces the player to take different approaches to understanding. Afterall, why would the devs in one item tell us that Godfrey was the First Elden Lord, but later on we come to find out that it was not true. That Placidusax was the actual first Elden Lord. Like you mentioned, them using qualifiers such as "it is said" makes it clear to me that the devs intend for anyone looking deeper into the story to have doubts about the Greater Will's true nature. The victor writes history. You probably already read it from a post on your last video, but I personally believe that the people of the Lands Between ascribe meaning and events to the Greater Will because that is what the ruling power of their land says their divine right and direction stems from. If the Greater Will has a body with which to think and feel, why "send" an Elden Beast/Ring to the Lands Between instead of showing up itself? Miyazaki, as I'm sure you know, was a Sociology/Psychology Major in school. Every one of his games examines the societal structures those in power set in place to continue their rule. Often religion is one of those and it is the one Elden Ring dives the deepest into, comparatively. In Dark Souls the Gods were strictly the Greek/Nordic esque gods of myth. Physical forms with clear desires. In Bloodborne the Gods are monstrosities akin to Lovecraft's work with wholly unknowable desires, save for childbirth and featured a church which took advantage of their access to vestiges of said gods to rise in power. Elden Ring is a combination and twist of both these ideas. We have the fickle and human-like Gods in Radagon/Marika but we also have the lovecraftian "forces of nature". The only difference is we never truly see or interact with them. And all mention of these "Gods" are through third parties or hearsay in descriptions. To me, Miyazaki with Elden Ring, has painted a MUCH more true to life setting and examination of the effects(both positive and negative) of Religion in society. And just like real life, he leaves it open to interpretation whether you choose to believe the twittering of the Two Fingers and machinations of Marika or not. The only difference is we are playing in a universe where Magic is real. Ranni's ending, where we remove the Elden Ring from the world thereby disallowing tampering, being the most involved to get and veritable "true" ending speaks volumes on the reality of the situation. The Ring shapes Order and those who hold it are the ones who spread what is "truth". With no Ring around no one can set up a dogma with pillars of authority(Fingers/readers) to rule and control the Lands Between. Again great video dude and never feel dumb or bad about your content, even if some people can be dispshits in how they argue dissent.
The golden order told Marika not to run with the ring in the house. But Marika did anyways then tripped and fell and broke it. So the golden order put her in timeout
I think it's most likely that the Greater Will is sentient. Placidusax being Elden Lord, the Greater Will punishing the Nox itself rather than just having the Golden Order do it, and so on seem to indicate this to me. Not to mention, the Three Fingers directly claim that the Greater Will is sentient, and though they aren't to be trusted in general, this would be a strange thing for them to lie about, and what we know of their origins indicates that they would know the truth of this. That said, the fact that you still end up in service of the Greater Will if you use one of the mending runes, even though they all directly contradict the nature of the Golden Order, indicates that the Greater Will does not seem to care _that_ much about the form that order takes. Regardless, I think the DLC will answer a lot of our questions here. It's going to be uncovering some of how the Golden Order was founded, and I think this will give us insight into the nature of the Greater Will.
Doesn't the DLC confirm that the Fingers were also corrupt or insane, starting with the Mother of Fingers, and that they led Marika astray? They also say it will take centuries to hear back from the Greater Will... so they were definitely lying earlier.
Fan Theory: the Greater Will and the Elden Beast are the results of becoming a Great Old One from Bloodborne The elden beast is the full grown Slug creature we become at the end. And the Greater Will is just another Great Old One like Formless Oden. Definitely not true but I like the idea
I will add one piece of very small evidence that the narrator isn’t always the most reliable, or at the very least is telling us things that are believed by whatever culture bore the item we are reading. Radahn’s motivations are the biggest example, with sword gravestones saying one thing, gravity spells saying another, and Liurnian items claiming another. I believe that at least the Liurnian descriptions are coming from the perspective of the victims, and are blaming Radahn’s actions on the Golden Order, while gravity sorceries might be a bit closer to what he actually was thinking, even if they aren’t the full truth. The other example is the Kindred of Rot’s Exaltation talisman, which says that the pests have some sort of keen intellect, while Gowry, a genuine server of the Rot God calls them “witless”. Not to mention all of the items that state that Giants are evil and only capable of destruction, while labeling their god as a Fel god. Clearly that history is being written by the victors of that war, Marika and her followers. That doesn’t mean there isn’t more to the giants, just what the Erdtree followers believe about them.
I like the idea that the Greater Will is a force of nature. But, since it's nature is order incarnate, it's actions MUST be structured, as if they weren't, then it would be going against itself. So it's a weird paradox in which the Greater Will ACTS as if it has sentience, but in reality it is just following it's nature.
Maybe a weird idea, but it seems like the Elden Ring is like a reality-editing computer the Greater Will uses it to alter the rules of reality to its liking. Still unsure of its specific motivations. Also, please don’t feel like you fell short when people in your audience comment with counterarguments or new ideas. Bouncing ideas off your audience to create new content is awesome.
While the third peice of evidence is more murky than you made it out to be in your first vid. Abandonment is another intentionlal act. Yiu cannot be abandoned by a rock you cannot be abandoned by a fundamental force. You cannot be abandoned by a planet or astroid. You can only be abandoned by a person or a formerly loyal animal. Something must be alive and able to make choices to chose to abandon you. Now perhaps the narator js engaging in anthropomorphic description. However if we take the opening as correct. Then we know that the greater will is alive and avle to chose to abandon us. Even if that choice is a natural consence of our actions. Using a magnet to repell another .agnet does not cause the repelled object to "abandon" you. It simply forces it away.
You have to consider that the narrator is not omniscient, and could just be anthropomorphizing the greater will, and give it a motive that would explain the circumstances of the shattering; the breaking down of the previous order. The fact that the war of the shattering happened Was attributed with the loss of the Greater Will’s favor, like how real religions have attributed natural disasters with the displeasure of their deities.
@xXRickTrolledXx I guess then we have to decide what the narrator is. I take the narrator to be 3rd person omniscient in the opening not a chatecter within the world. In that case their word is fact. If they say something is then it is. If they say people belive it. Then they belive it. If it is however a chatecter in the world with limited perspective that we cannot trust we need to verify what it tells us. Doesn't make it wrong but isn't conclusive. Still my point is that the person who made thr vid isn't taking into account that the description implies decision making.
There might be an aspect of consciousness to the Greater Will, but not one accessible to us. The way the Greater Will is describes is similar to the concept of the Godhead, the divine which pre-exists creation and time, and which is not a god, but the whole of divinity, and all that exists in potentiality. And that which bridges the gap between the unmanifest and the manifest, the Aion in Hermetic texts, and the lesser "gods" are all aspects of the infinite and ineffable godhead transposed into finite space and time. Some vessels have a more direct connection with the Greater Will/Godhead, much like the Angel Metatron is a direct vessel for the "identity" or name of the Abrahamic god, Yahweh, and speaks FOR and AS God to people like Moses, whereas the ineffable aspect of God, the Godhead, can only be glimpsed at through cryptic mystical experiences or rigurous scholasticism, The Kabbalah (Golden Order Fundamentalism), which unearths the fundamental principles through which the divine is manifested throughout Creation.
The way I like to think of gods and beings beyond comprehension, is them not being omniscient. Imagine you are a creater, you can create worlds, whatever happens in that world does not affect you. In case of the Greater Will, it sent the elden ring and saw multiple ages with people either running away from their responsibilities (Farum Azula's god) and people creating a strictly hierarchical kingdom (honestly the most basic of kingdoms). They have lived countless ages, seen countless ways of order and it doesnt excite them to create the same thing again and again, thats why they create a malleable elden ring. Build your own world's order with your own hands, it says. GW can hardly care about the suffering currently happening in the lands between as that is nothing compared to what it would have seen through all its ages. Thus, I dont think the Greater Will is a lot to blame for leaving the people to their devices, to see what they would achieve. I think that even the Tarnished is being manipulated by Marika. The only ending which does not follow what GW wants is the Flame of Frenzy ending, but even then the GW doesnt do anything else. Ofc we dont have much info on whether the flame of frenzy destroyed everything including the outer gods (which I think is highly unlikely) or it just erased all life in the lands between. For the GW that is like a corrupted save file, you cannot start anything on it again, time to move on to a new one (There is a theory that the multiple erdtrees that we see in the fight with elden beast signify the existence of multiple Lands with their own order or disorder). I dont think the GW directly intervenes in us trying to deter us from an ending, it saw what good it did with Nox people (you still get to them regardless).
22:18 "For that to be true, the two fingers would have to either be insane, babbling nonsense-" It is so interesting watching this after the DLC, as you made so many interesting observations that get directly elaborated on, or answered. Would love to see you make an addendum to this video, discussing the new evidence.
@@HopeiThis worst main boss in the game for sure. I definitely love getting one hit on him and then chasing him across the arena for the next 5 minutes.
The Normal Will hopefully takes inspiration from Marika and shatter that Ring already. Then again, not sure if we want a Shattering Slapping War as follow up
I really like the idea that The Greater Will is not hands on, and that Marika and Radagon are much more at fault for the wars in the lands between. Just like in real life, all wars are created by the assumption of some greater good by the aggressor, but that greater good is more of an enabler than an active force, regardless of its own sapience or lack thereof.
the greater will existed before marika and the golden order and so did the ring/beast, so i agree with u that marika is responsible for her actions. ofc the greater will through the ring and the power it gives definitely had some influence on her, just like money, power and fame would to a normal human in the real world but that doesn't take away from one's accountability. that being said, i think marika had way more free will and was way more responsible for her actions when she was an empyrean and did all the horrible things that she did cuz it appears that after ascending to godhood her and her other part have distinct roles embedded to them, causality and regression.
The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.
I always imagined that The Greater Will was physically somewhere in outer space, since the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between in a golden star, and so even if it is enormously powerful, it still has to rely on third parties to enact its will such as the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast. One theory I always found really interesting is that the Two Fingers have gone rogue, and since they are The Greater Will's only form of communication it has no way of directly interacting with the lands between. Multiple characters mention that the two fingers are no longer working the way they were intended to, they also have their own church outside of the golden order, and when you give Corhyn the assassins prayer book he considers it heresy, despite being from the Two Fingers
@@thomasdevlin5825I feel like the Greater Will doesn't have a physical form, or embodies the cosmos in some way, which not only explains its name, but still explains the need for vassals and representatives
@@Practicallypreposterousit could really go either way. This world doesn't seem to be a place where gods can instantly transport themselves to a new location. In Ranni's ending you undertake a long journey. Vassals and envoys could be needed because the Greater Will is physically located so far away
I love these videos! One thing that I am unclear on re the Two Fingers: later, when something doesn't go as planned (the thorns preventing access to the Erdtree), the Fingers call the GW, and Enia implies that it might take years. This makes it sound like the Fingers don't actually know if the GW is pleased with us specifically, and we don't even know how long it has been since they've actually spoken, and it might just be the case that we are fulfilling whatever the Fingers understand the GW's standing orders to be. It feels like that was supposed to be a reveal that hey, no, there's nobody actually there driving the bus; this could also help explain why the GW needs vassals at all. It's just an interesting thing to consider. I absolutely agree with the idea that we are supposed to read the GW as sentient- even if it is, in fact, not- personifying concepts themselves is a fromsoft trope at this point.
That's the fun fact. They probably fully believe that this is what the GW wants and they think to know that she's pleased and she bless our mission. A very good plot point, the wise and superior Fingers don't know nothing after all.
They probably only get a few transmissions every other millennia And the rest is interpretation In a society ruled by order that's enough because there won't be anything changing, because why would it? Why fix something if it is (presumably) already well oiled? And there it is, a system that worked But oh no here comes the shattering. A fast changing of times, too fast for the two fingers and the greater will And thus the two fingers as the "next in line" made the decisions and credited the greater will
Marika came up with this plan back when she stripped Godfrey and the other Tarnished of their grace. I think Marika had planned for Radagon's unwillingness to be deposed or how much power she had given him. Imo the GW didn't really care until the disorder and chaos overtook the land. Since the Two Fingers communicate using light, I think the amount of time it will take to get a response is supposed to show how far away the GW is from the Lands Between. I believe the TF we interact with in the Roundtable Hold are Marika's TF specifically, and they're trying to maintain the status quo with her in power and the Erdtree intact.
That happens because the Two Fingers were fooled by Marika. This whole time the TF assumed it was the Greater Will who gave grace back to the Tarnished, so they could restore the Elden Ring and become Elden Lord. So, why would the Erdtree block the path for them if the Greater Will is the one who wanted the Tarnished to brandish the Elden Ring? That does not make sense, right? That´s because it wasn´t the Greater Will who gave the Tarnished their grace back. It was Marika all along. It´s Marika who wants us to brandish the Elden Ring, burn the Erdtree and create a new Order. When the TF know that the Erdtree is blocked and the only way in is burning it down, they panick and desperetly try to communicate with the Greater Will.... but it seems they can´t anymore. Becasue the Greater Will abandoned The Lands Between a long time ago. And the only ones who protect what´s left of their precious Golden Order are Morgott and Radagon.
@@pantonpg "Kono Marika Da!" I'm not sure she's doing this fully concious of herself or even if there is One herself right now, but yeah, she was the one behind the return of the tarnished, not the GW.
I always liked the separation of the Greater Will and the Golden Order. We need more fantasy stories where Religious institutions are actually mistaken about what their deities want. Elder Scrolls explores some of that too.
As an archaeology student I've always seen fromsoft tory-telling as close as you can get to replicate how a historical investigation would go. Relying too much in just documental evidence will get you so far, there biases, is incomplete and doesn't present the full picture. Thats why I also see value in other elements: diference in architecture, clothing, iconography, real life inspirations, even the burial practises differences tell a story in this game. The scope to understand the lore is so wide and open to interpretation that, in a similar way to real life historial investigaton, is only the work of many people working toghether that this mess can be untangled. that's way things like not fully be able to explain things like what the greater will really is in a single video is not something to be ashamed
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt I have and I really like his approach, probably personal bias. But it's not perfect representation of how archaeology investigation would go, although is a really good work in that regard
Elden Ring's environmental storytelling is what makes it so special among everything in gaming history, and I'm quite literally tweaking over the fact that very little people find appreciation in it.
I'm glad I found this video because I've been losing this channel but this is the main criticism I was thinking of during the Marika video. In my opinion it would take many moons for the greater will to even get a status update on how its vassal is doing in the same way the 2 fingers needs so much time to hear the greater will.
Though the DLC throws a wrench into this, because Metyr Mother of Fingers that spawned the Two Fingers their remembrance states that even with its connection to the cosmos it hasn’t received a message in sometime. So if the Mother of Finger isn’t getting a response then I doubt the Two Fingers are either. That means the Two Fingers are winging it and just trying their best to act out the Greater Will’s influence to the best of their ability, but in reality they don’t know. Though amazing video! I am not gonna deny that the Greater Will is sentient though it has completely abandoned the Lands Between and the Land of Shadow
I have not played Elden Ring. Being able to say "I may be wrong" and looking at new evidence, is a good trait in life. I respect people that can say that. I also enjoy your videos on games that I have played. You provide thought, analysis, and a perspective that I don't have. Thank you for your content.
In Regards to the Greater Will giving Marika/Radagon the "tools" to make the Golden Order, I think something important to remember is that going off the concept that the Greater will is the embodiment of order, It probably gave those tools to make any type of society because it doesn’t really care as long as order exists in some form. additionally, that could also be why it was so angered or displeased with the shattering war, as a Chaotic event such as that is in direct opposition to its fundamental principles.
It didn't care about the war. It was fine with all the previous wars and génócìdés committed in its name. It was only mad because its puppet Marika stopped allowing herself to be its toy.
@@altermirror4063 It's unclear if Placidudax's god was connected to the Great Will, though. Given the faint remnants of gold on his scales it could be the case, but he could also have become gold because of his association with Godwyn.
I think your first point tells us more than you say. The 3 fingers state that the greater will made a mistake. For something to be a mistake it needs more than to be bad or in error. There needs to be intention and specifically that intention needs to be failed. From that alone we know that the greater will must be intelligent and aware. At least enough to make mistakes in the first place. 2 asteroids colliding isn't a mistake it's just an event a mistake would be trying to land on an astroid and crashing into it instead. Both might result in the destruction of colliding objects but that is only a mistake if you care about whether or not the objects are destroyed. An unthinking uncaring thing cannot make nor recognize mistakes. Presuming we trust the 3 fingers anyway
The best part? It's only fingers that have a better grasp what the truth is, it just has a messed up solution which could be as wrong as that of the two fingers
not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions. i can definitely see someone with a nihilistic perspective say that. i personally don't know if the greater will is sentient or not but one would assume that in a high fantasy setting like this with space gods and all that it would xD i highly doubt though that the greater will gives a fuck other than having a sort of order imposed.
@@metalface_villain "not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions." But the fact that it's called a "mistake" by the 3 fingers implies the 3 fingers are intelligent, and therefore the two fingers and the greater will probably are, as well.
@@metalface_villain Yep, is fully a Nihilist vision in the worst way. "Life is pain so burn everything." Quite funny after what Shabriri did to the merchants. Also, yeah, GW don't give a total sh*t about what is the order. Malenia, AFTER the Rot, was chosen as an Empyrean, and even with a chance of a Rot Goddess with the Elden Ring, GW did nothing.
Also, after burning the Erdtree, the Two Fingers make a specific pose, and the Finger Reader tells you it's communicating with the Greater Will. If we take the Finger Reader's word for it, an attempt to communicate implies a belief in the possibility of a response, which suggests an intellect or at least sentience.
i think the greater will is dualistic in nature, much like many other characters in the story. grace/order are but one half of the nature of the greater will, while chaos/frenzy is the other half of this same force. this force is not bifurcated in some long forgot conflict, but rather the connection between the two have been perceptually obscured for the denizens of the lands between.
Considering that the frenzy flame is yellow, I don't think this is all that far off. To a greater extent, I genuinely feel as though many aspects of reality that don't fit into the world under the Golden Order could have been removed like the Rune of Death, turning into the outer gods without anything to influence. After all, once the rune of death is finally able to affect the world again after taking Godwyn's body as its shell and it starts to reshape the world in its image just like the rot infecting Caelid and the Haligtree, or the way that Frenzy and the formless mother seemingly alter the people they influence Trememdous facts about reality that hurt, that you don't want to have to acknowledge, but none the less very real and very important. Things get strange if you cut them out, and if they remain seperate then horrible things happen when they make their own independent contact with the world again.
Item descriptions often provide context for where their information comes from, for example, in the elden stars description is starts by saying "It is said that..." Meaning this information is information passed down and not objective fact. I generally assume unless there's a preface or qualifier like this in the description, that the item descriptions are objectively true and that's how I personally make the distinction between objective and subject info within item descriptions
I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking during the video that knowing that the Elden Beast is only thought by the people of the Lands Between to be consciously sent by the Greater Will is still good information. It potentially not being true doesn’t diminish its value since we are learning about common beliefs of the people there and that informs how we in turn interpret their thoughts and actions.
What I find interesting about the Elden Beast. Notice the big scar on its belly ? There's a theory that since the beast came with the Elden Ring it's somewhat linked to it and so when trying to fracture it the Beast retaliate because it was getting smashed. There's also an attack of the elden beast that crucifies you to a rune and pierces you with dozens of spears so it makes sense if the Beast punished Marika even if it wasnt from a direct order and more from an act of self defense
the elden ring is the elden beast, the scar on it's belly is because of the fracture of the ring. the ring ofc is inside marika/radagon, that's why when ragagon loses the beast comes out to fight us. i think the beast through radagon is indeed responsible for crucifying marika. i think marika wanted a new order and a new lord to change the current order but radagon wants things to go back to what they used to be, that's why he attacks us to take our shards and do exactly that. we know marika shattered the ring because of godwyn but i don't know for sure why she wants a new order and what shape she wants it to take.
@Lee-km7qq Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, that also is the Elden Beast, but there is something more. The connection between the vessel and the Elden Ring is not just the same between a cup and the tea, because we can see Marika's/Radagon's body shattering when she smashed the Elden Ring (The story trailer). So you can say is a being shattering itself and then be punished by itself while the other itself is trying to fix itself. Mr.Miyazaki, even less please.
They're one and the same. I thought the scar was from the ring being taken from its body long ago, much like Marika became the literal vessel for it later.
@@themaniae4803 I'm still confused about that. There's evidence that Radagon was once an independent being, and he merged with Marika due to her kind able to "melt with flesh harmoniously". But why? What on earth does Radagon get out of literally becoming one with Marika?
I think it's worth noting that not only do Gold Mask and Mikela but also Marika herself are talked about as researching the Golden Order in order to understand it better. If Marika made up the Golden order from whole cloth why would she need to research it? Why is it implied all three of these characters found something that dismayed them once they found it? Here's to hoping we get more answers in the DLC
It should be taken into account that there is a distinct possibility that there is no Greater Will at all. It could be that everything that has happened that was attributed to the Greater Will is nothing more than happenstance, and that the "Greater Will" is equivalent to Divine Providence in the sense that it is an established cause of events that the majority of people in the Lands Between believe is a thing that can cause things to happen. The Greater Will's abandonment of the Lands Between is just another way of saying 'things suck now, nobody wants to take responsibility for it, so it must be because the Greater Will abandoned us'. There never was a Greater Will present; The land was simply in a Golden Age of prosperity and it was easy to believe it was because a higher power was responsible for all the good things happening. Hands manipulate, that is their physical function in our anatomy. So, the Fingers are manipulators, and I think they are largely responsible for the state of things, perpetuating belief in a thing that does not even actually exist. Combine that with the selfish ambitions of a bunch of bickering demigods and you get the world as it is. All of the so-called Outer Gods could very well be nothing more than natural forces in this universe that individuals learn how to harness and utilize, then start attributing their own biases onto those forces of nature and develop cults around them.
This is my reading as well. It makes me think WAAY back to when Elden Ring was first announced and I read a blurb describing the game along the lines of "the Ambition of humanity".
I think an interesting detail about the Mending Runes is that the source of all three of them are Tarnished: People who have, either directly or indirectly, been removed from the Golden Order, but called upon when things have gotten dire. People who are bringing new ideas to a flawed Order, from their experiences of having to live outside of it. I'm deeply curious as to whether Miquella will be bringing his own, new ending to Elden Ring with the DLC, and what shape that'll take. From what little we know about him, he seems at this point in his life to be fairly dismissive of the Golden Order. It couldn't cure his sister, he's sheltering a bunch of things viewed as malign by the Order in his treehouse, that he was specifically building as a new, alternative tree to the Erdtree, and he's fully divested himself of the body and Grace he was entitled to by birth, in pursuit of something in the Lands of Shadow, which from descriptions seems to be a sort of... oubliette that Marika and/or the Golden Order used for things they didn't want around. Very curious indeed.
*SPOILERS FOR DLC* He was trying to get a different age of compassion to the age of order, and you stop him. So in a sense yes he is trying to make a new ending, but you cut it off in favor of your own ending as Elden lord.
In the DLC we have learned that mother of fingers was abandoned by the greater will a long time ago, therefore two fingers were only pretending to be it's messengers :
That's not how I perceived it. It's not pretending, it genuinely thinks it's still getting info directly from GW. It doesn't know that it's getting the info from its mother, Metyr, who is aware GW is gone and yet continues to act as its envoy, making it up as she goes based on what she *_thinks_* is what GW wants.
Turns out the two fingers might be communicating with Metyr who was the one who once communicated directly with the Greater Will but has not received a message in a long time.
It's ironic how the Greater Will never directly communicated with literally anyone, not Marika or even its own daughter, Metyr. The fingers were busy consulting something that was beyond the microcosm and communication was never directly established. The spear that pierces Marika imprisoned her within the Erdtree, and made it so none could enter the Erdtree was all Radagon's doing in his illustrious attempt to mend the Elden Ring and restore the Golden Order. All those wars and genocide and sealing away Destined Death? That was Marika establishing her vision of a world without suffering and what she had to do in order to achieve something like that.
I look forward to seeing what information on the Golden Order the DLC gives us. I get the feeling Miquella has some pretty damning information on the religion considering the lengths he's gone to to distance himself from it and gain access to the place that Marika is (supposedly) from. Messmer being excluded from the original pantheon of demi-gods despite clearly being a child of Marika himself will also be interesting.
Honestly it's good to get a fresh perspective on the lore of elden ring coming from more of a meta-physics angle rather than pure in-game lore. You've brought up ideas that even other lore-tubers have yet to bring up that make a lot of sense (IE the Greater Will as an Eldritch being of pure order, being repelled by the discord in the Lands Between).
Reacting early @2:10 and I've got two thoughts: first, the name, "The Greater Will," implies, well, a will, an entity with wants and goals and some sort of thought, even if it's not in a form we well recognize/understand. It's plausible that that's a misunderstanding on the part of mortals, but that just leads me into point two: Marika can be responsible for shaping the Golden Order but also not be a petulant child in breaking it. She can have either grown to think better of/regret her past choices, or have been fully convinced that she wasn't the one making those decisions and believe herself to be rejecting a higher power, not realizing that that was always in her own power. Either way, she actually still paints the picture of someone who has come to reject their past as mistaken and misguided and seeking to redress those crimes as she is able.
I think Goldmask's Mending Rune gives solid evidence that a lot of the BS happening is simply due to Marika and other gods: "The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment." So all the mistreatment of Omen, the in-fighting, "blasphemous" things, etc. can pretty much be blamed on the representatives of the Golden Order and not the Greater Will itself. I think its only influence is the Elden Beast and whatever force allows it into people's heads.
I disagree with this reading bcs the treatment of the omen is exactly the kind of flaw goldmask is attempting to remove by removing the interference of fickle gods such as Marika
I’m sure someone has mentioned it already, but the remembrance for the optional DLC boss, Metyr, and the descriptions of the items you get from it adds so much to this topic
I wish we knew more about her. She's the first envoy of GW, and the mother of Two Fingers, but then where did Three Fingers come from? And where did GW go? It abandoned Metyr and the lands between, but why?
I sometimes wonder if people have been misinterpreting that description on the Elden Stars thing. Was it the Elden Beast that became the Elden Ring, or was it the golden star that bore it? Because when we see the Elden Beast, it’s definitely not the Elden Ring. The Ring was right there inside Marika/Radagon, and the Beast grabbed it up along with their corpse to make that sword. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the star to have become the Ring?
I think there is an important linguistic point that has been overlooked in this debate. A will is by definition personal. If the Greater Will is impersonal, then it is by definition not a will.
It can also be a very primitive drive or desire. I believe there can be an unconscious or subconscious "will" that a conscious being can discovery, but "will" might not be the best word to describe that. It's definitley mysterious or imperceptibly great or possibly unknowable.
@@pillarmenn1936 In Japanese the word used for "Will" is "意志", which can mean will, intent, and determination. It's never used for things that aren't sentient as far as I can see. So no, as far as Japanese is concerned: the Greater Will IS sentient. In fact, we see plenty of examples in the game of the Greater Will spying on people (Iji's helm), controlling people (Blaidd, Ranni), making choices (abandoning the Demigods to instead call the Tarnished), etc. It's very difficult to argue that it's not sentient imo.
It is very likely that Marika discovered something that changed her mind on obedience to the Greater Will. There's a bonfire in game where Melina relates Marika declaring her intent to study the Greater Will much closer and sometime after that, she does an almost complete 180 in terms of her own Golden Order from trying to build it up, crush all competitors and make it as strong as possible, to actively betraying it and trying to tear it down. She essentially allows Ranni to steal a piece of destined death and kill Godwyn the Golden. She banishes Godfrey the first Elden Lord and master of the tarnished and basically tells them to become really strong and come back some day emboldened with the flame of ambition. She sends Melina out to find the "chosen" tarnished to assist in this. She IS Radagon, so her then denying the tarnished entry into the Erdtree forcing them to burn it could be another effort to basically destroy the own order she created and, of course, she herself shatters the Elden Ring. What she learned is not completely clear, but the change in behavior could not be more clear. She goes from one extreme to the polar opposite extreme. From doing everything possible to ensure the Golden Order's primacy and superiority over all other factions or ideologies to wanting to the exact opposite of subverting it however she can. After whatever she learned she then devotes all of her efforts to tear down what she had spent her entire life creating, even at the cost of basically the lives of all of her offspring (save perhaps Ranni and/or Miquella?) and her own life as well. I think it is likely that her study of the Greater Will turned up something that disgusted her or some way that she herself had been deceived and/or lied to. I suspect that the Erdtree is a parasite, feeding on everything that returns to it in order to make the Greater Will ever stronger. It is beautiful...and feeding on the entire world over the centuries.
I’m not sure what she discovered but she clearly came to some conclusion. But you are wrong in one respect (in my view anyways for what that counts) radagon and marika are the same person but Radagon is the half that wishes to save the current order marika is the one who broke it that’s why she is impaled and crucified while radagon can whip the hammer out and go bonk bonk But then we must also ask ourselves what if she discovered nothing? What if she found the Elden beast and order and all of it have no real will or purpose and all of the blasphemy she committed in the past was all for not? What if that’s what shadow of the Erdtree will shed light on? What if that’s why miqeulla is doing what he’s doing? This is why I love and hate Elden ring we have a ring of possible and answers but no concrete center, no anchoring rune we can know anything from all we know is that radagon and marika are one and the only philosopher who would know more is wiggling his fam finger at the sky while his apprentice cries in a corner
Parasite theory was always my favorite interpretation of the Erdtree. Isn't their lore about souls who die get absorbed into the Erdtree? Not to mention in the final boss arena, we see tons of Erdtrees in the distance, implying that the Greater Will has more of them in other realms, sending them out like probes. Another cool interpretation IMO is that we the player are the Greater Will, the two fingers being metaphorical for the fingers we use to manipulate the controller and thus the Tarnished. It makes sense, our will is the only one that matters in this world.
The gold imo is kind of like the one ring from Tolkien. It corrupts and consumes anyone who tries to take it over for power. Just look at Marika at the end of the game. It’s just an empty shell. That’s no longer whoever the real Marika was. It’s just like how sorcerers get consumed who try to study the primal current of Star magic. Everyone in this game tries to use something to gain power and they pay the price for it.
I think of the parasitic interpretation to be the one that makes the most sense for me. Power parasite and corrupts and do everything it can to grow stronger and stay alive for as long as possible through whatever means, even it that means being flexible and betraying itself, like it did with the "heretics from the Carian family". If order cannot prevail trough strength, it will redefine itself to prevail through laws. This is what a lifeform looking to survive anything will do : adapt in whatever way it can to overcome any threats. And what better thing to do for a parasite that is just looking to feed from as many worlds as possible ?
Radagon and Marika are not the same person. They share a body, yes, but clearly have different motivations and personalities. The most clear example of this is Marika trying to shatter the Elden Ring while Radagon was the one trying to repair it, according to the description of Marika's Hammer. The Tarnished's return and slaying of the Elden Beast was always what Marika wanted, seeing as how she sent Godfrey away on purpose, and wanted her demigod children to claim their places as gods, lords, what have you. It would make no sense for her to block off the Erdtree, especially when Melina is almost certainly her daughter, and Melina herself was created for the purpose of getting into the Erdtree. Radagon, on the other hand, has been described by Queen Marika herself as a "leal hound of the Golden Order," meaning that she views him as more or less a fanatical dog. His title ingame isn't "Radagon, Second Elden Lord," it's "Radagon of the Golden Order." We never see any sign of Marika developing Golden Order fundamentalist incantations, but we know Radagon personally developed the spell Radagon's Rings of Light as a gift to his son Miquella. In other words, Radagon is consistently characterized as someone whose very identity revolves around the Golden Order. A loyal and dogmatic servant who is even considered a fundamentalist of the Order. It makes perfect sense for someone like Radagon to seal off the Erdtree, because anyone looking to mend the Elden Ring would likely destroy the current form of the Golden Order and create a new one. He doesn't want the world to change - he wants the world to remain stagnant and dead, as long as the Golden Order in its current form is preserved.
After the DLC I'm beginning to realize that the greater will..... spoilers: Has had no effect whatsoever on the land's between neither Marika's rule or the two fingers it was all an illusion created by the mother of fingers a broken creation of the greater will who it hasn't communicated with in eons.
About the mistake the three fingers are talking about : The mistake is the gift of life. Elden Ring's origin, according to the 3 finger's dialogue, seems to be pretty akin to the lord of Dark Souls (which is partially why I believe that what is being told here is NOT a lie) : The world was gray and unchanging and uniform, with neither life nor death, nor anything, really. The gift of life, that came from the fracture (from the Fire, in Dark Souls), created all those variances : life and death, order and chaos, etc... all the good but also all the bad : death, pain, despair... The battle between the factions (or the cosmic gods, really) of Elden Ring is nothing more than philosophy, with each faction representing a point of view and clashing with the others, in a battle to determine which one is "right". The 3 fingers probably came to be because order existed, as they represent pure chaos. No matter what, they're the absolute antithesis to the order. Order seeks to build, organize and control, therefore the chaos seeks to destroy everything in a senseless chaos. It's kind of a yin-yang dynamic. And just like the order seeks to maintain itself "alive", chaos seeks to make everything melt away and fuse again together. When there is absolutely nothing, there is no chaos but there is no order either. Chaos does not care for self-preservation, which is why it is called madness : because it goes against everything that life is about. That's probably also why the madness incantations can be just as harmful to you as they are to your enemies.
I think you've overlooked a key detail. The Tranished's guidance and immortality. These come from the Greater Will. And no matter what ending you choose, it never revokes these. It has revoked it for many others, but never you. Another lesser detail I think you should reconsider is Dungeater and Goldmask. Despite how vastly different they are, their heraldry is shockingly similar. A Sun. A great light inspired both men onto their paths to creating their mendings runes. They weren't just random Tarnished. Something directed them both.
We now know that the Greater Will is gone. Metyr, Two Fingers, and the Elden Beast are acting independently, thinking they're acting on behalf of GW but in reality are just making it up, blindly going off of what they *_think_* GW wants.
3:50 - I'm sorry, but did that 3 fingers maiden just describe an allegory to the big bang? Because that's what it sounded like, and if that's the case... then she's not wrong...
Here's a couple of important questions to consider when contemplating the nature of the Greater Will 1. In a scenario where the player defeats Radagon but then dies to the Elden Beast, what would happen next? Would the Elden Beast repair the seal on the Erdtree? Would it return to Radagon and wait for the next challenger? Would it leave the Erdtree and try to return to the Greater Will, or perhaps just rampage until someone defeated it? 2. How far does the scope of the Elden Ring's influence extend? We know it extends across The Lands Between, but we also know other lands exist in this world, like the Land of Reeds or the places across the sea that Marika sent Godfrey and his men. If the rules defined by the Elden Ring govern the natural order of things across the world, and the Shattering War happened centuries ago, then why has no outside nation attempted to take advantage of the civil war stalemate and seize the Elden Ring for themselves? (Keep in mind, the truth about needing to burn the thorns to enter the Erdtree didn't become public knowledge until the player attempts to enter the Erdtree with two Great Runes, so no foreign nation would be aware that only someone with Grace could claim the Elden Ring). Sure, the reputations of the demigods could have scared many of them off, but over that much time, it's hard to believe that no foreign power would try to launch an assault on The Lands Between, or even offer an alliance and military support to one of the demigods to help them win the war.
Well, as for the first one, I would imagine it would simply take the repair rune the player character has and fixed the elden ring. After that, who knows.
Regarding who punished Marika: The elden beast has a grab attack in which the player is held aloft on a rune (exactly like Marika) and pierced by innumerable golden light spikes. Still not clear on the red spear but it's something 🤷🏻♂️
I do believe the greater will will accept any kind of order as long as one exists The Golden Order was formed by the plucking of Destined Death, probably as Marika's answer to the Gloam eyed queen's attack on her demigod children and attempt to take the throne as an Empyrean I think the Golden Order's aversion to death is built on a more emotional root than their Fundamentalism dictates, since they incorporated so much into the order before and after In Marika's own words, she decided to study the depths of the Order. Given the term she uses this was probably after Death was banished. She would understand what cosmic thing they are actually dealling with And what she found was so maddening she decided to shatter the whole thing at the cost of herself and possibly the world Or maybe she answer she found with Radagon is that the best thing for the world was for nobody to sit on the throne, for no rule to take place, for Order to be forever out of reach Maybe that's why she collaborated with Ranni if that was the case (Maliketh says she betrayed him and I can only think of the stealing of Death as something he would consider a betrayal)
Feedback is always good Don't confuse it with destructive criticism You make good compelling arguments with the knowledge you have Love your videos keep doing what your doing
Considering the cosmic nature of the Greater Will, I'm not sure if we can know what its true nature is. The people in the Lands Between and even the two fingers think they know, but we see that the Two Fingers seem to be making stuff up as they go and when they aren't sure what they do anymore they panic and try to communicate which will take an unknowable amount of time. We can either guess that it just really takes a long time to communicate with the GW, that the GW has actually abandoned the Lands Between and that the Two Fingers just don't want to believe it, or that the Two Fingers are buying time to figure out what to do next. I'm not sure what exactly they're doing, and I'm not sure we can know for sure, but I do think that it adds to the cosmic mystery of the GW. People want to say they understand the GW, but I'm not sure anyone in the Lands Between can truly understand it. Maybe getting close to understanding it is what led Marika to shatter the Elden Ring like she did. To me it seems that the developers do want us to believe that the GW is a being that we can understand, but then when we learn about the Elden Beast and see what it is, we have to question that notion, what on earth kind of being could create the beast and send it here, is it something that we can ever truly understand?
I think the answer is likely a middle ground The Greater Will is a sentient entity with its own goals and consciousness. Its just that its goals are not nessicairly complex or nuanced ones. It wants order. Whos order? Not its problem, it gives you the tools and lets you go at it yourself, as long as there is order its satisfied with whatever you're doing. The Greater Will is likely not an "outer god" either. In the Japanese text it is spoken of and described as something more akin to the Christan God. Whereas the Outer Gods are described as something more similar to the Kami of Japanese mythology. Implying the "God hierarchy" goes: Greater will -> Outer Gods -> Gods Envoys (The Fingers, Elden Beast, Deathbirds) -> Mortal Gods (Marika, Placi's god etc.)
As long as there is order that's what the greater will likes. Actually, this has been a common sentiment in the lore community for sometime if I recall....
Have you seen The Tarnished Archeologist's videos? If not, check out his video on the two and three fingers. Rather than insane, the fingers are like religious scholars and preachers interpreting the will of the divine by observing the universe around them. Golden Order Fundamentalists teach fundamentals like the Law of Causality. All the talk of the Greater Will's feelings could just be metaphorical in the same way priests describe God's wrath. They interpret its will to be Order because that's how they see the world evolve around them. The Elden Beast/Ring could perhaps be some sort of supreme catalyst for causality, appearing to and effectively warping the nature of cause and effect by its very presence. It would only be natural to worship such a thing as the envoy of all Order. Even if coincidental, it's arrival could still be interpreted as providential. I think there's a very good case to be made for the Greater Will being an indifferent force of causality that is worshiped as God. The Fingers are just using their apparently enlightened position to shape society under the guidance of Metyr. Metyr is described as being the first meteor to come as an envoy of the Greater Will. What if this whole time Metyr and her many fingers have indeed just been manipulating the lands with an ever-changing religion that reveres concepts like Order? The fingers, so versed in the fundamentals of Order, use their power to manipulate reality on a local scale such that they appear to be (and are) very powerful. But when the Elden Beast/Ring came later, they didn't know what to do about it and panicked. The seemingly random abandonment of the Greater Will to some fingers but not others is, I think, the fingers being lost as to what to do next. We know at some point Metyr seems to seclude herself, leaving the rest of the fingers without a guiding force. Some have simply taken interpretation into their own hands, so to speak.
This is a lot better but still some of your inferences are not quite valid. Hyetta's words: "All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake." This dialogue does not imply that the Greater Will came from the One Great, it implies the Greater Will fractured the One Great, every thing and every one born of that which the Frenzied Flame considers a "mistake" it implies that the Greater Will and the One Great are two distinct forms of being. Will in philosophy is a faculty of the mind by which we perform actions, the Frenzied Flame wishes to burn everything away and restore it to its primordial form, the One Great, which would cease all action, implying stillness, the opposite of action. So from this we can infer that the Greater Will and the One Great are distinct, in that the Greater Will can act and the One Great cannot. And the Greater will acts as the first unmoved mover in Elden Ring. We can further deduce that the Frenzied Flame is biased, while it is true that every torment despair, affliction, sin, curse, came from what the Greater Will did through that act of dividing the One Great setting it down the path of evolution and distinguishing it, every joy, every shred of happiness, love, kindness, came from that as well, this is by necessity. There is so much more to the Greater Will though, that I am unable to write in a comment.
So, there's a concept that exists in cosmic horror that few people really delve into because it's hard to wrap your head around. Cosmic forces could just 'intersect' with reality, without necessarily fully noticing that it's doing so. If the Greater Will is a sentient and engaged entity, it could just be a screaming cosmic mind that only really influences the world in passing. It COULD be communicated with, but only in so much as you can interface with a computer. The Elden Ring itself is the physical representation of the laws of reality, so perhaps the Greater Will is the 'console' that is used by any given being to alter, interact with, or in Merika's case damage, parts of how conceptual reality functions.
I personally believe that the Greater Will is a true Lovecraftian deity. it is therefore endowed with intelligence but reasons through canons and concepts that are completely foreign to us (it is therefore a cross between a chaotic force and an intelligent individual). at the same time this would explain why it needs so many channels to communicate (the two fingers, marika, the elden beast...). furthermore one wonders why such a powerful and conscious entity does not act directly on the world. if you see the Greater Will as a Lovecraftian deity this problem is quickly solved. there are various possibilities: - it is, like many gods in the Lovecraft mythos, stuck in a sort of higher or detached plane of existence from which it can only influence the world (this is also suggested by other deities in the game, the formless mother, for example, can " appear" to Mohg only via portals) - it is so different and alien in his ways of acting and reasoning that it cannot help but use intermediaries - it has a problem similar to that of the Combine in Half Life, that is, it is too powerful and therefore what happens on the "planet" of the game is only one of the countless cosmic events on which he is acting and he doesn't care what happens on just one of these (Sorry for bad english 🙃)
I think it's pretty compelling that the greater will is some type of physical being. If you look at all of George RR Martin's writings, I think there may only be one instance where we have an actual confirmed literal God influencing the story. In all of his other stories, most of which are science fiction, the gods of said story are actually just people or physical beings that happen to have great power and use that power to affect change in the world or universe around them, oftentimes by influencing people through more subtle means like sending dreams and visions. So the way I see Eldon ring, this is just an extension of many of the same themes that George RR Martin has been using his entire writing career. Essentially, Elden Ring is a story about some very powerful space being influencing what is ostensibly a medieval society and thus the vocabulary we can use to describe these outer gods is limited by the understanding of a medieval society where technological advancement is relatively minimal because people have certain abilities that us in our world would call magical. However in George RR Martin's writings this wouldn't be magic, but really just abilities that some people have much the same way that some people are better at sports than others. It's also worth noting that George RR Martin wrote an essay where he talks about what he calls the furniture rules wherein he sees no difference between the genres of science fiction and fantasy. George argues that they are essentially one in the same and the only difference between the two is typically just the aesthetic. A person in a medieval society who can teleport would be in a fantasy story, but the ability to teleport might be seen as a science fiction trope. Essentially, the stories are all the same between fantasy and science fiction, but whether a story is considered fantasy or science fiction really just depends on what furniture is in the room at the time. Are there wooden tables rushes and horses or are there metal tables windows and spaceships?
![Cody Johnson - I'm Gonna Love You (with Carrie Underwood) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yy9PuYMU29g/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that the DLC says: "nah the fingers actually havent talked to the Greater Will in forever"
The DLC making it so the Golden Order is a result of an extended game of whispers - based on outdated information and corrupted by Marika's biases and desire for vengeance - of the Greater Will's desires is kinda hilarious in a way
@@dontaejones7419 Count Ymir also reveals that because "we are made of stardust" we are also descendants of and part of the Greater Will. The only difference is that the Elden Beast is to the creatures of The Lands Between what the Sun is to us creatures of Earth. So I think the Greater Will truly is the collective laws of physics and of man. It's very much a Berserk idea in that way. That there is no higher power out there, only the collective will of the people and certain "special" people who acquire enough power to influence the people around them and the world for better or worse.
@@dontaejones7419 Worse than that since Marika had to abandon her flesh & humanity to become a god it more or less just takes over Marika but with her memories forcing order everywhere.
Remember godhood is a prison.
The level of control over her probably varied. Finally fading away as she learned to resist it & shattered when Godwyn dies. Only to realize she became the exact same monster that existed before her as a god. Then shattering the ring.
@@dontaejones7419It’s so real and human that it’s definitely chuckle worthy 😅 😂
,😊
Please, never feel stupid.
Your videos provide an excellent jumping off point for thoughtful discussion. We learn about our worlds by interacting with them. Mistakes are made, and from them we learn and grow.
I agree 100%
I may not agree with your conclusion or how you interpreted evidence to reach that conclusion, but I've never thought of you or your content as stupid. Your videos (that I've seen) are well thought out and well researched. Sometimes the questions you've asked don't have a definitive answer. FromSoft games are known for providing few definitive answers. You do great work with the material they provide.
Surely a stupid person would never stop to consider, "wait, what if my founding assumptions are all wrong? What happens to the topic if those ideas just aren't true?"
@@Amigo21189 I can't help but RELATE to MINDS like YOURS
Making a choice by no means implies intelligence. Just look at the average voting public.
I prefer this take on ER lore.
To me, it's almost like a biblical tale.... something rich in metaphor and unclear on specific timeframes, or how certain events ACTUALLY happened. But it also has a 'canon' story to it that's more or less implied to be a fully cogent and tangible truth. It's just one that none of the people reading it can ever fully understand. You know only what God wants you to know. What you access from your mortal, sinful place in the universe is but a fraction of what ever was, is, or will be.
Because of that, there are all of these denominations, institutional and intellectual forces in the world... all of them built upon some fundamental presumptions about what the text is communicating to us. Or perhaps what the practical meaning of it is, how to best apply it and move forward with it. In doing so, many presumptions are taken on faith. And a rational framework emerges, one that aims to explain why we suffer and what we must do. But the map is not the territory. And because of that, institutions large enough to run nations have risen and collapsed. I guess their understanding was still incomplete.
One thing I notice, and maybe this is getting too close to the real world but... not only are their separate denominations, but entire different religions taking readings of the text. And they fight constantly over which is right, because nobody knows the full answer. However, it makes sense that people fight over this in the real world - everyone involved believes the fate of our race hinges on us getting it right. That's something I can completely understand as a basic matter of possessing human empathy and rationale. It is the root of so much tragedy, but I do not know how to stop people from being people.
What I can't understand is doing it in a video game world. We can have conflicting reads on text and subtext here and nothing is lost. The truth is, everyone is getting it wrong in the sense that there probably isn't a singular right that is remotely comprehensive enough to bury further questioning. Elden Ring gets a lot more interesting to think and talk about when you stop presuming there is a correct, ultimate explanation and start realizing there are many possible explanations, and that by design of the work, you will never have an understanding of it all that is complete enough to form a singular, absolute truth of it. That's for the creator to think about. The greatest joy of the game's storytelling is that by removing our ability to see the 'canonical' storyline directly, we can essentially pull a near infinite amount of stories from it. Again, it's a lot like the Bible. If ever you think you've figured all of it out, you missed the point... there are things referenced in that book, that aren't meant to be understood by humans in a fully concrete way. It paints you pictures of many things... pieces of truths, the full extent of which are implicitly not comprehensible by mortals. And I think some lore-interpreters for this game mistakenly believe they can mantle a full understanding of divinity by becoming historians.
'The Fingers must be crazy or deceiving us.'
Ymir's questline be like 'correct'.
Good video, can't wait to see more theories about this now that the DLC has been out for awhile.
even Sir Gideon knew what was up before the dlc
he truly is all knowing
if you don't know what i meant
check the Lord's Divine Fortification description
Super important what you said about believing the Narrator (i.e the item descriptions)! People get downright paranoid about not trusting what's in front of them in this game sometimes, and some foundation is necessary. After all, what's the point of trying to figure out the lore if you don't believe in anything?
I think it's super healthy to always take definitive statements in item descriptions at face value - if a description wants us to be uncertain, it will use uncertain language.
There is definitely a contrarian bent to a lot of people's interpretations that just leads to them inventing nonsense basically from whole-cloth to justify why everything we read *must* be a lie.
Except every description that involves Radagon and Marika literally lies to you lmao.
Examples? Since I don't remember items that say they are seperate. I only remember dialouge that says that, which comes from people that don't know the full context. So it would be nice if you could remind me.@@dgalloway107
@@dgalloway107 Where exactly? Because I can't remember a single item that does lie to the player about Radagon and Marika. It never mentions that Radagon = Marika because it's never relevant to said item.
That’s kind of what this video feels like too
My thoughts about the three fingers is that they are the most honest out of all, what we know is that they communicate via their fingerprints, they can't change those and they are pretty much repeating themselves all the time and well they go straight to the point, Burn everything with the yellow Chaos Flame, the only other one is hayetta who tells us what their fingerprints say, in order to communicate with the two fingers the message has to go through the two finger themselves since they share what they greater will says and from what we saw they aren't actually communicating at the moment or since who knows when they haven't talked and the the message has to come through another individual that being the finger reader.
Your videos are a sick jumping off point for a lot of deep thinking and conversation and thats why im here for them. I often disagree with you but the endeavor you took to dive so deep is foundational for any thought i had at all on the matter at hand.
I like your video man I'm happy you came to ask more questions and expand but I do believe you made a wonderful points in the first video thanks for doing these narrative breakdowns I love them ❤❤❤
If the Greater Will did not have sentience or any other motivation than “order,” it would just be full-sending on Shabriri and the Flame of Frenzy’s plan. Their plan is to melt everything into One, which would create ultimate order.
I actuality do believe that the Two Fingers are lying, or are actuality delusional. When you defeat Morgott, and your path to the Erdtree is blocked, that seemed to have stumpted the Two Fingers (the one in the Roundtable Hold, specifically, since we know there are more than one Two Finger).
I think each Two Finger have wills, and desires of their own, in similar ways to how priests in our own world, and the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold had its own plans, and that plan was to have the Player Tarnished to become the Elden Lord, in the way that the Roundtable Two Fingers wanted it, and it was leveraging its supposed connection to the Greater Will, to claim some authority, but once the path to the Erdtree was blocked, the Two Finger didn't know what to do, and from that point, the Two Finger goes silent for the rest of the game.
Nice video, as always.
I really enjoy your channel, especially the god of war series, where your presentation of the Story was really eyeopening to me.
When I saw your first eldenring video I was a little afraid. Eldenring / the soulsborne Saga as a whole is not only unique in its storytelling, themes and presentation of its lore, but there is already a big lore community, dedicated to understand every aspect of it.
But, the way you explain certain aspects of the lore seem to suit your channel fine and are really enjoyable to watch. Im happy to see, that you face the challenge of the wonderful lore of eldenring with an open mind and your unique perspective.
I didnt expected to see "big lore reveals" in These Videos of yours, and was suprised to see ur style of storytelling revealing the Inspirations of themes in eldenring.
Thank you very much!
(( I think, the narrator in the item descriptions is trustworthy, when it makes Statements. But whenever "it is said" / "some say" is used, more often than not, there is more to the Story. I still agree to your conclusion, its just a rule I use for my own Research ^^' ))
It's also interesting that the Elden Beast has a grab attack that looks exactly like how Marika's position like hung up by a rune and impaled. So I think the Elden Beast is the one who punished Marika, but whether on it own accord or by the Greater Will orders it's unknown.
I really like the theory that it was the Elden Beast retaliating against Marika for shattering the ring, it would explain why the beast seems to have a huge fracture in its “torso” area
The Greater Will is not a thing that is present in the lands between. it acts only through emissaries and proxy gods. That doesn't preclude it having its own will, but it also doesn't care about the lands between enough to micromanage it. Only when threatened does it take direct notice. It has a will. It is an outer god, and like every other outer god, it wants/has a preferred outcome. And like every other outer god it attempts to achieve thise outcome with a proxy god and their consort, the elden lords.
For discussions like this, establishing what you mean with terms is always helpful! So, as I understand and use them:
Intelligence - the capacity to take in information, analyze it, make adjustments, and respond to it. Problem solving and retention of knowledge.
Sentience - the capacity to perceive your environment and react to it and the ability to be able to feel emotion
Sapience - consciousness and deeper thought. To be able to rationalize and have what we call higher order thinking, planning in advance, and conceptualize.
From how I remember things: the greater will is an outer god. It is not native to the lands between, and with its arrival, it usurped what was here and made the elden ring. The golden order was created after and sought conquest. We are told that the two fingers interpret and communicate with the greater will, and they are then translated by the finger readers. This is a game of telephone, lol. Sentience fits what we know, but we don't know if it is sapient or intelligent.
It could have arrived by coincidence, accident, or like an animal wandering for food. The fingers could be "communicating" like how one would with their dog or a baby: observing its mood and reaction to infer what it wants, then the finger readers relay to us what the fingers think it wants. Or it is sapient and is communicating properly. We don't know
I already commented but I wanted to leave this Item description from the game here. I think it perfectly hints at what the writers at Fromsoftware were doing by making the Greater Will seem sentient when it in fact isnt.
Flock's Canvas Talisman: The figures represent the flock at prayer, their firm belief in the intangible inspiring even the solitary founder of their religion. What is faith if not an affirmation?
Its quite clear to me that Fromsoftware intends the player to question the validity of those in power. Even those who say they can communicate and receive mandates from "God".
Belief in the intangible from the common folk and even up to the founders(Marika/Fingers) of a religion. Faith is simply an affirmation, a declaration, a statement of something that may or may not be true.
Great video! Making mistakes and discovering conterevidence to them is the essence of learning! Nothing wrong with that at all! Love to see the journey of discovery that people find themselves on.
Speaking to Radagon’s motivations in the game he is established as a fundamentalist. He is someone with a very black and white view of the Golden Order and what it entails. The idea that a Tarnished could come in and reformat the Elden Ring goes against everything he believes about the Golden Order itself being perfect and flawless. Ironically when his “God”; the greater will, is tasking us with fixing things it’s their most devout follower who blocks our path.
I’ll start with this. You already missed a vital point. When Bernal says “we refuse to become your pawns.” Really puts the point to the flame there. From whether or not it’s sentient all the way up to why Merika does what she did to escape her prison.
If the Noks believe they invoked the ire of the Greater Will, but the people of the lands between do not understand everything about the Greater Will, could the Noks be misunderstanding and only understanding the genocide and persecution of the Golden Order as invoking the ire of the Greater Will?
What’ll really blow your mind is when you realize how well Elden Ring cosmology aligns with so many real-world ancient mystical belief systems, such as Gnosticism
We need a borderlands 2 handsome jack villain video. He was a fantastic villain. Have you played that game yet fatbrett?
Just spent yesterday trying to at least be able to beat Radagon
The only aspect I think you should examine in this discussion is cultural context.
The first part of this is to look into any possible localization issues that may obscure the meanings the creators were aiming to get across in the text. That's hard to do if you aren't a native speaker of Japanese (I'm not). Luckily, at this point I believe there are some threads about this on Reddit.
Next would be the possible impact of Shinto on the game (I know GRR Martin isn't Japanese or Shinto, but he's intelligent enough to incorporate the appropriate concepts into his writing). I think we see many Kami throughout the game, including the Elden Beast, the Erdtree, maybe even the imps, golems, watchdogs, and crystal beings. If the game is more in-line with Shinto concepts, the GW might not be an entity with awareness.
But I'm aware how challenging it would liked be to incorporate these topics into the discussion. I don't think less of your video for their absence, and I agree with your interpretation of the evidence available.
It wouldn't be a Fromsoftware game if there weren't ambiguous motivations to pick apart from all the characters. It keeps us engaged with the story long after the game itself is over.
You cover a lot of games. There will always be people with the time and focus to hyper-fixate on fewer games and explore their lore even more thoroughly. The fact you engaged with the criticisms seriously enough to make this video shows you gave it as thorough a look as it deserves. And for what its worth I don't think you made stupid mistakes in the prior video, you had a read that made a lot of sense, but it was built on a couple assumptions that were worth questioning. The ER lore community has a ton of disagreements on everything, with all kinds of evidence for many theories, pretty hard to make a case for anything and not get slammed by a million comments that disagree.
Great video and I appreciate you going back and presenting these alternate ideas. I still disagree with your conlusion that the Greater Will is a sentient/acting force especially with regards to your evidence from the Two Fingers in particular. I think the devs, on a surface level reading, want the player to believe everything that is written in the item descriptions is true. But when one takes a step back like you did in this video I think it becomes very clear that they want the player to doubt or think more critically on the "facts" in the descriptions. Taking this approach does not, in my opinion, leave the story flailing in the wind like I'm sure it would feel like for anyone trying to pin down every event and concept in this game. It rather forces the player to take different approaches to understanding.
Afterall, why would the devs in one item tell us that Godfrey was the First Elden Lord, but later on we come to find out that it was not true. That Placidusax was the actual first Elden Lord. Like you mentioned, them using qualifiers such as "it is said" makes it clear to me that the devs intend for anyone looking deeper into the story to have doubts about the Greater Will's true nature. The victor writes history.
You probably already read it from a post on your last video, but I personally believe that the people of the Lands Between ascribe meaning and events to the Greater Will because that is what the ruling power of their land says their divine right and direction stems from. If the Greater Will has a body with which to think and feel, why "send" an Elden Beast/Ring to the Lands Between instead of showing up itself?
Miyazaki, as I'm sure you know, was a Sociology/Psychology Major in school. Every one of his games examines the societal structures those in power set in place to continue their rule. Often religion is one of those and it is the one Elden Ring dives the deepest into, comparatively.
In Dark Souls the Gods were strictly the Greek/Nordic esque gods of myth. Physical forms with clear desires. In Bloodborne the Gods are monstrosities akin to Lovecraft's work with wholly unknowable desires, save for childbirth and featured a church which took advantage of their access to vestiges of said gods to rise in power.
Elden Ring is a combination and twist of both these ideas. We have the fickle and human-like Gods in Radagon/Marika but we also have the lovecraftian "forces of nature". The only difference is we never truly see or interact with them. And all mention of these "Gods" are through third parties or hearsay in descriptions. To me, Miyazaki with Elden Ring, has painted a MUCH more true to life setting and examination of the effects(both positive and negative) of Religion in society. And just like real life, he leaves it open to interpretation whether you choose to believe the twittering of the Two Fingers and machinations of Marika or not. The only difference is we are playing in a universe where Magic is real.
Ranni's ending, where we remove the Elden Ring from the world thereby disallowing tampering, being the most involved to get and veritable "true" ending speaks volumes on the reality of the situation. The Ring shapes Order and those who hold it are the ones who spread what is "truth". With no Ring around no one can set up a dogma with pillars of authority(Fingers/readers) to rule and control the Lands Between.
Again great video dude and never feel dumb or bad about your content, even if some people can be dispshits in how they argue dissent.
Should really look at the high priest ymir has to say about the two fingers and the greater will
Elden beast is for the sure the entity that sealed marika. As his grab attack does the same thing to the player.
The golden order told Marika not to run with the ring in the house. But Marika did anyways then tripped and fell and broke it. So the golden order put her in timeout
I think it's most likely that the Greater Will is sentient. Placidusax being Elden Lord, the Greater Will punishing the Nox itself rather than just having the Golden Order do it, and so on seem to indicate this to me. Not to mention, the Three Fingers directly claim that the Greater Will is sentient, and though they aren't to be trusted in general, this would be a strange thing for them to lie about, and what we know of their origins indicates that they would know the truth of this.
That said, the fact that you still end up in service of the Greater Will if you use one of the mending runes, even though they all directly contradict the nature of the Golden Order, indicates that the Greater Will does not seem to care _that_ much about the form that order takes.
Regardless, I think the DLC will answer a lot of our questions here. It's going to be uncovering some of how the Golden Order was founded, and I think this will give us insight into the nature of the Greater Will.
Doesn't the DLC confirm that the Fingers were also corrupt or insane, starting with the Mother of Fingers, and that they led Marika astray? They also say it will take centuries to hear back from the Greater Will... so they were definitely lying earlier.
Fan Theory: the Greater Will and the Elden Beast are the results of becoming a Great Old One from Bloodborne
The elden beast is the full grown Slug creature we become at the end. And the Greater Will is just another Great Old One like Formless Oden.
Definitely not true but I like the idea
Layer here, with a horrible flu unable to sleep and im blessed with this, thank the outer gods hahah
I will add one piece of very small evidence that the narrator isn’t always the most reliable, or at the very least is telling us things that are believed by whatever culture bore the item we are reading. Radahn’s motivations are the biggest example, with sword gravestones saying one thing, gravity spells saying another, and Liurnian items claiming another. I believe that at least the Liurnian descriptions are coming from the perspective of the victims, and are blaming Radahn’s actions on the Golden Order, while gravity sorceries might be a bit closer to what he actually was thinking, even if they aren’t the full truth. The other example is the Kindred of Rot’s Exaltation talisman, which says that the pests have some sort of keen intellect, while Gowry, a genuine server of the Rot God calls them “witless”. Not to mention all of the items that state that Giants are evil and only capable of destruction, while labeling their god as a Fel god. Clearly that history is being written by the victors of that war, Marika and her followers. That doesn’t mean there isn’t more to the giants, just what the Erdtree followers believe about them.
I like the idea that the Greater Will is a force of nature. But, since it's nature is order incarnate, it's actions MUST be structured, as if they weren't, then it would be going against itself. So it's a weird paradox in which the Greater Will ACTS as if it has sentience, but in reality it is just following it's nature.
Marika/Radagon is personalized form of Greater Will, without this personality GW is just a force of nature
Maybe a weird idea, but it seems like the Elden Ring is like a reality-editing computer the Greater Will uses it to alter the rules of reality to its liking. Still unsure of its specific motivations.
Also, please don’t feel like you fell short when people in your audience comment with counterarguments or new ideas. Bouncing ideas off your audience to create new content is awesome.
This man is giving us peak content ❤
after the Dlc another video is needet
While the third peice of evidence is more murky than you made it out to be in your first vid. Abandonment is another intentionlal act. Yiu cannot be abandoned by a rock you cannot be abandoned by a fundamental force. You cannot be abandoned by a planet or astroid. You can only be abandoned by a person or a formerly loyal animal. Something must be alive and able to make choices to chose to abandon you. Now perhaps the narator js engaging in anthropomorphic description. However if we take the opening as correct. Then we know that the greater will is alive and avle to chose to abandon us. Even if that choice is a natural consence of our actions. Using a magnet to repell another .agnet does not cause the repelled object to "abandon" you. It simply forces it away.
You have to consider that the narrator is not omniscient, and could just be anthropomorphizing the greater will, and give it a motive that would explain the circumstances of the shattering; the breaking down of the previous order.
The fact that the war of the shattering happened Was attributed with the loss of the Greater Will’s favor, like how real religions have attributed natural disasters with the displeasure of their deities.
@xXRickTrolledXx I guess then we have to decide what the narrator is. I take the narrator to be 3rd person omniscient in the opening not a chatecter within the world. In that case their word is fact. If they say something is then it is. If they say people belive it. Then they belive it. If it is however a chatecter in the world with limited perspective that we cannot trust we need to verify what it tells us. Doesn't make it wrong but isn't conclusive. Still my point is that the person who made thr vid isn't taking into account that the description implies decision making.
The Greater Will is Schopenhauer's unthinking Will that just is.
There might be an aspect of consciousness to the Greater Will, but not one accessible to us. The way the Greater Will is describes is similar to the concept of the Godhead, the divine which pre-exists creation and time, and which is not a god, but the whole of divinity, and all that exists in potentiality. And that which bridges the gap between the unmanifest and the manifest, the Aion in Hermetic texts, and the lesser "gods" are all aspects of the infinite and ineffable godhead transposed into finite space and time. Some vessels have a more direct connection with the Greater Will/Godhead, much like the Angel Metatron is a direct vessel for the "identity" or name of the Abrahamic god, Yahweh, and speaks FOR and AS God to people like Moses, whereas the ineffable aspect of God, the Godhead, can only be glimpsed at through cryptic mystical experiences or rigurous scholasticism, The Kabbalah (Golden Order Fundamentalism), which unearths the fundamental principles through which the divine is manifested throughout Creation.
The way I like to think of gods and beings beyond comprehension, is them not being omniscient. Imagine you are a creater, you can create worlds, whatever happens in that world does not affect you.
In case of the Greater Will, it sent the elden ring and saw multiple ages with people either running away from their responsibilities (Farum Azula's god) and people creating a strictly hierarchical kingdom (honestly the most basic of kingdoms). They have lived countless ages, seen countless ways of order and it doesnt excite them to create the same thing again and again, thats why they create a malleable elden ring.
Build your own world's order with your own hands, it says. GW can hardly care about the suffering currently happening in the lands between as that is nothing compared to what it would have seen through all its ages.
Thus, I dont think the Greater Will is a lot to blame for leaving the people to their devices, to see what they would achieve. I think that even the Tarnished is being manipulated by Marika. The only ending which does not follow what GW wants is the Flame of Frenzy ending, but even then the GW doesnt do anything else. Ofc we dont have much info on whether the flame of frenzy destroyed everything including the outer gods (which I think is highly unlikely) or it just erased all life in the lands between. For the GW that is like a corrupted save file, you cannot start anything on it again, time to move on to a new one (There is a theory that the multiple erdtrees that we see in the fight with elden beast signify the existence of multiple Lands with their own order or disorder).
I dont think the GW directly intervenes in us trying to deter us from an ending, it saw what good it did with Nox people (you still get to them regardless).
Worm squid with sword and feet.
Feet ? 😏
Squidward?
Never thought about it like that before 🤯
Bacon, toast, hope & Prayer😊
(Suit up, and show up❤❤❤)
With more glitter than a Kesha video from 2010
22:18 "For that to be true, the two fingers would have to either be insane, babbling nonsense-"
It is so interesting watching this after the DLC, as you made so many interesting observations that get directly elaborated on, or answered. Would love to see you make an addendum to this video, discussing the new evidence.
Lol yup. We now know without a doubt that, yes, that is PRECISELY what Two Fingers has been doing.
the absolute roast of the elden beast out of nowhere was insane.
So relatable though, Elden Beast gave me the most trouble on my first play-through too!
@@HopeiThis worst main boss in the game for sure. I definitely love getting one hit on him and then chasing him across the arena for the next 5 minutes.
Shit take @@unclefatback
@@jeambeam3173 ???
@@unclefatbackhe’s just a fan boy pole rider who can’t handle an ounce of criticism towards his favourite game.
The Greater Will(Smith): “keep my COSMIC NATURE OUT YOUR F*CKING MOUTH” 🌌
Wow,......I totally plan to steal.this
The Normal Will hopefully takes inspiration from Marika and shatter that Ring already. Then again, not sure if we want a Shattering Slapping War as follow up
xDDD
Good one
Elden Ring 2, can't wait to play it! 😊
I really like the idea that The Greater Will is not hands on, and that Marika and Radagon are much more at fault for the wars in the lands between. Just like in real life, all wars are created by the assumption of some greater good by the aggressor, but that greater good is more of an enabler than an active force, regardless of its own sapience or lack thereof.
the greater will existed before marika and the golden order and so did the ring/beast, so i agree with u that marika is responsible for her actions. ofc the greater will through the ring and the power it gives definitely had some influence on her, just like money, power and fame would to a normal human in the real world but that doesn't take away from one's accountability. that being said, i think marika had way more free will and was way more responsible for her actions when she was an empyrean and did all the horrible things that she did cuz it appears that after ascending to godhood her and her other part have distinct roles embedded to them, causality and regression.
The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.
I always imagined that The Greater Will was physically somewhere in outer space, since the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between in a golden star, and so even if it is enormously powerful, it still has to rely on third parties to enact its will such as the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast.
One theory I always found really interesting is that the Two Fingers have gone rogue, and since they are The Greater Will's only form of communication it has no way of directly interacting with the lands between. Multiple characters mention that the two fingers are no longer working the way they were intended to, they also have their own church outside of the golden order, and when you give Corhyn the assassins prayer book he considers it heresy, despite being from the Two Fingers
@@thomasdevlin5825I feel like the Greater Will doesn't have a physical form, or embodies the cosmos in some way, which not only explains its name, but still explains the need for vassals and representatives
@@Practicallypreposterousit could really go either way. This world doesn't seem to be a place where gods can instantly transport themselves to a new location. In Ranni's ending you undertake a long journey. Vassals and envoys could be needed because the Greater Will is physically located so far away
I love these videos! One thing that I am unclear on re the Two Fingers: later, when something doesn't go as planned (the thorns preventing access to the Erdtree), the Fingers call the GW, and Enia implies that it might take years. This makes it sound like the Fingers don't actually know if the GW is pleased with us specifically, and we don't even know how long it has been since they've actually spoken, and it might just be the case that we are fulfilling whatever the Fingers understand the GW's standing orders to be. It feels like that was supposed to be a reveal that hey, no, there's nobody actually there driving the bus; this could also help explain why the GW needs vassals at all. It's just an interesting thing to consider.
I absolutely agree with the idea that we are supposed to read the GW as sentient- even if it is, in fact, not- personifying concepts themselves is a fromsoft trope at this point.
That's the fun fact. They probably fully believe that this is what the GW wants and they think to know that she's pleased and she bless our mission. A very good plot point, the wise and superior Fingers don't know nothing after all.
They probably only get a few transmissions every other millennia
And the rest is interpretation
In a society ruled by order that's enough because there won't be anything changing, because why would it? Why fix something if it is (presumably) already well oiled?
And there it is, a system that worked
But oh no here comes the shattering.
A fast changing of times, too fast for the two fingers and the greater will
And thus the two fingers as the "next in line" made the decisions and credited the greater will
Marika came up with this plan back when she stripped Godfrey and the other Tarnished of their grace. I think Marika had planned for Radagon's unwillingness to be deposed or how much power she had given him. Imo the GW didn't really care until the disorder and chaos overtook the land.
Since the Two Fingers communicate using light, I think the amount of time it will take to get a response is supposed to show how far away the GW is from the Lands Between. I believe the TF we interact with in the Roundtable Hold are Marika's TF specifically, and they're trying to maintain the status quo with her in power and the Erdtree intact.
That happens because the Two Fingers were fooled by Marika. This whole time the TF assumed it was the Greater Will who gave grace back to the Tarnished, so they could restore the Elden Ring and become Elden Lord. So, why would the Erdtree block the path for them if the Greater Will is the one who wanted the Tarnished to brandish the Elden Ring? That does not make sense, right?
That´s because it wasn´t the Greater Will who gave the Tarnished their grace back. It was Marika all along. It´s Marika who wants us to brandish the Elden Ring, burn the Erdtree and create a new Order.
When the TF know that the Erdtree is blocked and the only way in is burning it down, they panick and desperetly try to communicate with the Greater Will.... but it seems they can´t anymore. Becasue the Greater Will abandoned The Lands Between a long time ago. And the only ones who protect what´s left of their precious Golden Order are Morgott and Radagon.
@@pantonpg "Kono Marika Da!"
I'm not sure she's doing this fully concious of herself or even if there is One herself right now, but yeah, she was the one behind the return of the tarnished, not the GW.
I always liked the separation of the Greater Will and the Golden Order. We need more fantasy stories where Religious institutions are actually mistaken about what their deities want. Elder Scrolls explores some of that too.
Same
man, the entire genre of cosmic horror is about humanity's misunderstanding of an unknowable universe
Literally bloodborne my dude 😂
Literally real life my dude
It’s an excellent parallel to real life.
Turns out two fingers were in fact making shit up lol
Yeah, senile old fingers
As an archaeology student I've always seen fromsoft tory-telling as close as you can get to replicate how a historical investigation would go. Relying too much in just documental evidence will get you so far, there biases, is incomplete and doesn't present the full picture. Thats why I also see value in other elements: diference in architecture, clothing, iconography, real life inspirations, even the burial practises differences tell a story in this game. The scope to understand the lore is so wide and open to interpretation that, in a similar way to real life historial investigaton, is only the work of many people working toghether that this mess can be untangled. that's way things like not fully be able to explain things like what the greater will really is in a single video is not something to be ashamed
Exactly this. Great post.
Really well said!
I'm hoping you've come across the channel of Tarnished Archaeologist lol
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt I have and I really like his approach, probably personal bias. But it's not perfect representation of how archaeology investigation would go, although is a really good work in that regard
Elden Ring's environmental storytelling is what makes it so special among everything in gaming history, and I'm quite literally tweaking over the fact that very little people find appreciation in it.
The Morgott analysis is gonna go hard
You mean uncle Ruckus?
@r3dh0ll0w8 why does this make so much sense lmao
"morgott is gonna go hard"
@@r3dh0ll0w8glad I’m not the only one who thinks this
I'm glad I found this video because I've been losing this channel but this is the main criticism I was thinking of during the Marika video.
In my opinion it would take many moons for the greater will to even get a status update on how its vassal is doing in the same way the 2 fingers needs so much time to hear the greater will.
Though the DLC throws a wrench into this, because Metyr Mother of Fingers that spawned the Two Fingers their remembrance states that even with its connection to the cosmos it hasn’t received a message in sometime. So if the Mother of Finger isn’t getting a response then I doubt the Two Fingers are either. That means the Two Fingers are winging it and just trying their best to act out the Greater Will’s influence to the best of their ability, but in reality they don’t know. Though amazing video! I am not gonna deny that the Greater Will is sentient though it has completely abandoned the Lands Between and the Land of Shadow
It's impossible to say. Maybe it was sentient, maybe it was not. All we know for certain is that it's gone.
It's a will that is greater
Greater than what?
@@patrickkinnear8625 lesser wills I guess
Yes
Which implies intelligence.
Or maybe it's just a guy named Will who has proclaimed himself greater than all other people named Will
I have not played Elden Ring. Being able to say "I may be wrong" and looking at new evidence, is a good trait in life. I respect people that can say that. I also enjoy your videos on games that I have played. You provide thought, analysis, and a perspective that I don't have. Thank you for your content.
Yep, he's cool. A lot of "open-minded" youtubers out there blocks you when you even just suggest something against what they say.
In Regards to the Greater Will giving Marika/Radagon the "tools" to make the Golden Order, I think something important to remember is that going off the concept that the Greater will is the embodiment of order, It probably gave those tools to make any type of society because it doesn’t really care as long as order exists in some form. additionally, that could also be why it was so angered or displeased with the shattering war, as a Chaotic event such as that is in direct opposition to its fundamental principles.
A society of bug eaters would be acceptable so long as it's orderly
@@knightsblight enforced by the Davos Beast, lmao
We know of at least one society that preceded Marika's yet had the Elden Ring: dragons, and their Elden Lord Placidusax.
It didn't care about the war. It was fine with all the previous wars and génócìdés committed in its name. It was only mad because its puppet Marika stopped allowing herself to be its toy.
@@altermirror4063 It's unclear if Placidudax's god was connected to the Great Will, though. Given the faint remnants of gold on his scales it could be the case, but he could also have become gold because of his association with Godwyn.
I think your first point tells us more than you say. The 3 fingers state that the greater will made a mistake. For something to be a mistake it needs more than to be bad or in error. There needs to be intention and specifically that intention needs to be failed. From that alone we know that the greater will must be intelligent and aware. At least enough to make mistakes in the first place. 2 asteroids colliding isn't a mistake it's just an event a mistake would be trying to land on an astroid and crashing into it instead. Both might result in the destruction of colliding objects but that is only a mistake if you care about whether or not the objects are destroyed. An unthinking uncaring thing cannot make nor recognize mistakes.
Presuming we trust the 3 fingers anyway
The best part? It's only fingers that have a better grasp what the truth is, it just has a messed up solution which could be as wrong as that of the two fingers
not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions. i can definitely see someone with a nihilistic perspective say that. i personally don't know if the greater will is sentient or not but one would assume that in a high fantasy setting like this with space gods and all that it would xD i highly doubt though that the greater will gives a fuck other than having a sort of order imposed.
@@metalface_villain "not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions."
But the fact that it's called a "mistake" by the 3 fingers implies the 3 fingers are intelligent, and therefore the two fingers and the greater will probably are, as well.
@@metalface_villain Yep, is fully a Nihilist vision in the worst way. "Life is pain so burn everything." Quite funny after what Shabriri did to the merchants. Also, yeah, GW don't give a total sh*t about what is the order. Malenia, AFTER the Rot, was chosen as an Empyrean, and even with a chance of a Rot Goddess with the Elden Ring, GW did nothing.
Also, after burning the Erdtree, the Two Fingers make a specific pose, and the Finger Reader tells you it's communicating with the Greater Will. If we take the Finger Reader's word for it, an attempt to communicate implies a belief in the possibility of a response, which suggests an intellect or at least sentience.
i think the greater will is dualistic in nature, much like many other characters in the story. grace/order are but one half of the nature of the greater will, while chaos/frenzy is the other half of this same force. this force is not bifurcated in some long forgot conflict, but rather the connection between the two have been perceptually obscured for the denizens of the lands between.
Reverse Sheogorath
@@BiteTheHookwho shegorath
@@mauricegreen5321Cheese eating monkey
Considering that the frenzy flame is yellow, I don't think this is all that far off. To a greater extent, I genuinely feel as though many aspects of reality that don't fit into the world under the Golden Order could have been removed like the Rune of Death, turning into the outer gods without anything to influence. After all, once the rune of death is finally able to affect the world again after taking Godwyn's body as its shell and it starts to reshape the world in its image just like the rot infecting Caelid and the Haligtree, or the way that Frenzy and the formless mother seemingly alter the people they influence Trememdous facts about reality that hurt, that you don't want to have to acknowledge, but none the less very real and very important. Things get strange if you cut them out, and if they remain seperate then horrible things happen when they make their own independent contact with the world again.
@@mauricegreen5321 Sheogorath is a character in the Elder Scrolls universe and is known as the god of madness and insanity.
Item descriptions often provide context for where their information comes from, for example, in the elden stars description is starts by saying "It is said that..." Meaning this information is information passed down and not objective fact. I generally assume unless there's a preface or qualifier like this in the description, that the item descriptions are objectively true and that's how I personally make the distinction between objective and subject info within item descriptions
I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking during the video that knowing that the Elden Beast is only thought by the people of the Lands Between to be consciously sent by the Greater Will is still good information. It potentially not being true doesn’t diminish its value since we are learning about common beliefs of the people there and that informs how we in turn interpret their thoughts and actions.
No Glazing but love your content bro. just made something and was looking for something to watch to lol.
It’s not glazing when this man makes genuinely good content
@@Swampboiii This is true
What I find interesting about the Elden Beast. Notice the big scar on its belly ? There's a theory that since the beast came with the Elden Ring it's somewhat linked to it and so when trying to fracture it the Beast retaliate because it was getting smashed. There's also an attack of the elden beast that crucifies you to a rune and pierces you with dozens of spears so it makes sense if the Beast punished Marika even if it wasnt from a direct order and more from an act of self defense
the elden ring is the elden beast, the scar on it's belly is because of the fracture of the ring. the ring ofc is inside marika/radagon, that's why when ragagon loses the beast comes out to fight us. i think the beast through radagon is indeed responsible for crucifying marika. i think marika wanted a new order and a new lord to change the current order but radagon wants things to go back to what they used to be, that's why he attacks us to take our shards and do exactly that. we know marika shattered the ring because of godwyn but i don't know for sure why she wants a new order and what shape she wants it to take.
@Lee-km7qqno. it’s stated the elden beast is the elden ring so the wound is from marika shattering the elden ring
@Lee-km7qq Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, that also is the Elden Beast, but there is something more. The connection between the vessel and the Elden Ring is not just the same between a cup and the tea, because we can see Marika's/Radagon's body shattering when she smashed the Elden Ring (The story trailer). So you can say is a being shattering itself and then be punished by itself while the other itself is trying to fix itself. Mr.Miyazaki, even less please.
They're one and the same. I thought the scar was from the ring being taken from its body long ago, much like Marika became the literal vessel for it later.
@@themaniae4803 I'm still confused about that. There's evidence that Radagon was once an independent being, and he merged with Marika due to her kind able to "melt with flesh harmoniously". But why? What on earth does Radagon get out of literally becoming one with Marika?
I think it's worth noting that not only do Gold Mask and Mikela but also Marika herself are talked about as researching the Golden Order in order to understand it better. If Marika made up the Golden order from whole cloth why would she need to research it? Why is it implied all three of these characters found something that dismayed them once they found it?
Here's to hoping we get more answers in the DLC
Humans in real world invent politics and laws, but still study them.
Maybe Marika tries to fix her mistakes by objective analysis.
It should be taken into account that there is a distinct possibility that there is no Greater Will at all. It could be that everything that has happened that was attributed to the Greater Will is nothing more than happenstance, and that the "Greater Will" is equivalent to Divine Providence in the sense that it is an established cause of events that the majority of people in the Lands Between believe is a thing that can cause things to happen.
The Greater Will's abandonment of the Lands Between is just another way of saying 'things suck now, nobody wants to take responsibility for it, so it must be because the Greater Will abandoned us'. There never was a Greater Will present; The land was simply in a Golden Age of prosperity and it was easy to believe it was because a higher power was responsible for all the good things happening.
Hands manipulate, that is their physical function in our anatomy. So, the Fingers are manipulators, and I think they are largely responsible for the state of things, perpetuating belief in a thing that does not even actually exist. Combine that with the selfish ambitions of a bunch of bickering demigods and you get the world as it is.
All of the so-called Outer Gods could very well be nothing more than natural forces in this universe that individuals learn how to harness and utilize, then start attributing their own biases onto those forces of nature and develop cults around them.
This is my reading as well. It makes me think WAAY back to when Elden Ring was first announced and I read a blurb describing the game along the lines of "the Ambition of humanity".
Don’t bring your atheism into fantasy games pls
Even the name implies intelligence. It is a "will", not a "Greater Power or Greater Force".
Just look the idea of evil in Berzerk, if it has a "will" it can desire.
I think an interesting detail about the Mending Runes is that the source of all three of them are Tarnished: People who have, either directly or indirectly, been removed from the Golden Order, but called upon when things have gotten dire. People who are bringing new ideas to a flawed Order, from their experiences of having to live outside of it.
I'm deeply curious as to whether Miquella will be bringing his own, new ending to Elden Ring with the DLC, and what shape that'll take. From what little we know about him, he seems at this point in his life to be fairly dismissive of the Golden Order. It couldn't cure his sister, he's sheltering a bunch of things viewed as malign by the Order in his treehouse, that he was specifically building as a new, alternative tree to the Erdtree, and he's fully divested himself of the body and Grace he was entitled to by birth, in pursuit of something in the Lands of Shadow, which from descriptions seems to be a sort of... oubliette that Marika and/or the Golden Order used for things they didn't want around. Very curious indeed.
*SPOILERS FOR DLC*
He was trying to get a different age of compassion to the age of order, and you stop him. So in a sense yes he is trying to make a new ending, but you cut it off in favor of your own ending as Elden lord.
There are no new endings, unfortunately. The entire DLC is a glorified side quest.
@@T3AR_HD I think it's kinda funny how this one person keeps going around merking gods left and right.
@@WobblesandBean "Make a world not for gods, but for all men."
In the DLC we have learned that mother of fingers was abandoned by the greater will a long time ago, therefore two fingers were only pretending to be it's messengers :
That's not how I perceived it. It's not pretending, it genuinely thinks it's still getting info directly from GW. It doesn't know that it's getting the info from its mother, Metyr, who is aware GW is gone and yet continues to act as its envoy, making it up as she goes based on what she *_thinks_* is what GW wants.
Turns out the two fingers might be communicating with Metyr who was the one who once communicated directly with the Greater Will but has not received a message in a long time.
No "might be", that's exactly what is going on. Two Fingers isn't aware that his mom is totally making it up.
I haven't seen the Jap translations yet to know for sure. That makes it less certain than things we know for sure; like Ranni being a piece of shit.
It's ironic how the Greater Will never directly communicated with literally anyone, not Marika or even its own daughter, Metyr. The fingers were busy consulting something that was beyond the microcosm and communication was never directly established. The spear that pierces Marika imprisoned her within the Erdtree, and made it so none could enter the Erdtree was all Radagon's doing in his illustrious attempt to mend the Elden Ring and restore the Golden Order. All those wars and genocide and sealing away Destined Death? That was Marika establishing her vision of a world without suffering and what she had to do in order to achieve something like that.
It was also partly Marika taking out her pain and sorrow on those who hurt her in the past
I look forward to seeing what information on the Golden Order the DLC gives us. I get the feeling Miquella has some pretty damning information on the religion considering the lengths he's gone to to distance himself from it and gain access to the place that Marika is (supposedly) from. Messmer being excluded from the original pantheon of demi-gods despite clearly being a child of Marika himself will also be interesting.
Honestly it's good to get a fresh perspective on the lore of elden ring coming from more of a meta-physics angle rather than pure in-game lore. You've brought up ideas that even other lore-tubers have yet to bring up that make a lot of sense (IE the Greater Will as an Eldritch being of pure order, being repelled by the discord in the Lands Between).
Reacting early @2:10 and I've got two thoughts: first, the name, "The Greater Will," implies, well, a will, an entity with wants and goals and some sort of thought, even if it's not in a form we well recognize/understand. It's plausible that that's a misunderstanding on the part of mortals, but that just leads me into point two: Marika can be responsible for shaping the Golden Order but also not be a petulant child in breaking it. She can have either grown to think better of/regret her past choices, or have been fully convinced that she wasn't the one making those decisions and believe herself to be rejecting a higher power, not realizing that that was always in her own power. Either way, she actually still paints the picture of someone who has come to reject their past as mistaken and misguided and seeking to redress those crimes as she is able.
The "all things yearn to converge" line is actually a mistranslation for "all things yearn to fall into place". So your theory makes sense
I think Goldmask's Mending Rune gives solid evidence that a lot of the BS happening is simply due to Marika and other gods:
"The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment."
So all the mistreatment of Omen, the in-fighting, "blasphemous" things, etc. can pretty much be blamed on the representatives of the Golden Order and not the Greater Will itself. I think its only influence is the Elden Beast and whatever force allows it into people's heads.
Yet goldmask's ending keeps the shape of the order that persecutes the omen and undead,
I disagree with this reading bcs the treatment of the omen is exactly the kind of flaw goldmask is attempting to remove by removing the interference of fickle gods such as Marika
Goldmask really just fixed everything unbelievably easily
@@dgalloway107No it doesn’t? It Perfects the order.
I’m sure someone has mentioned it already, but the remembrance for the optional DLC boss, Metyr, and the descriptions of the items you get from it adds so much to this topic
I wish we knew more about her. She's the first envoy of GW, and the mother of Two Fingers, but then where did Three Fingers come from? And where did GW go? It abandoned Metyr and the lands between, but why?
Curious what your opinion is now after playing the DLC with some of the revelations now known
FatBrett out here saving me from workday boredom 🔥🔥🔥
I sometimes wonder if people have been misinterpreting that description on the Elden Stars thing. Was it the Elden Beast that became the Elden Ring, or was it the golden star that bore it? Because when we see the Elden Beast, it’s definitely not the Elden Ring. The Ring was right there inside Marika/Radagon, and the Beast grabbed it up along with their corpse to make that sword. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the star to have become the Ring?
I think there is an important linguistic point that has been overlooked in this debate.
A will is by definition personal. If the Greater Will is impersonal, then it is by definition not a will.
Can we chalk that up to mistranslation or flowery wording? Cause that seems to be the case here if the Greater Will is indeed non sentient
It can also be a very primitive drive or desire. I believe there can be an unconscious or subconscious "will" that a conscious being can discovery, but "will" might not be the best word to describe that. It's definitley mysterious or imperceptibly great or possibly unknowable.
@@allenandrews2380 So an animal essentially. Similar to an insect.
@@allenandrews2380 A subconscious in the psychological sense also still implies personhood.
@@pillarmenn1936 In Japanese the word used for "Will" is "意志", which can mean will, intent, and determination. It's never used for things that aren't sentient as far as I can see. So no, as far as Japanese is concerned: the Greater Will IS sentient.
In fact, we see plenty of examples in the game of the Greater Will spying on people (Iji's helm), controlling people (Blaidd, Ranni), making choices (abandoning the Demigods to instead call the Tarnished), etc. It's very difficult to argue that it's not sentient imo.
It is very likely that Marika discovered something that changed her mind on obedience to the Greater Will. There's a bonfire in game where Melina relates Marika declaring her intent to study the Greater Will much closer and sometime after that, she does an almost complete 180 in terms of her own Golden Order from trying to build it up, crush all competitors and make it as strong as possible, to actively betraying it and trying to tear it down.
She essentially allows Ranni to steal a piece of destined death and kill Godwyn the Golden. She banishes Godfrey the first Elden Lord and master of the tarnished and basically tells them to become really strong and come back some day emboldened with the flame of ambition. She sends Melina out to find the "chosen" tarnished to assist in this. She IS Radagon, so her then denying the tarnished entry into the Erdtree forcing them to burn it could be another effort to basically destroy the own order she created and, of course, she herself shatters the Elden Ring.
What she learned is not completely clear, but the change in behavior could not be more clear. She goes from one extreme to the polar opposite extreme. From doing everything possible to ensure the Golden Order's primacy and superiority over all other factions or ideologies to wanting to the exact opposite of subverting it however she can. After whatever she learned she then devotes all of her efforts to tear down what she had spent her entire life creating, even at the cost of basically the lives of all of her offspring (save perhaps Ranni and/or Miquella?) and her own life as well.
I think it is likely that her study of the Greater Will turned up something that disgusted her or some way that she herself had been deceived and/or lied to. I suspect that the Erdtree is a parasite, feeding on everything that returns to it in order to make the Greater Will ever stronger. It is beautiful...and feeding on the entire world over the centuries.
I’m not sure what she discovered but she clearly came to some conclusion. But you are wrong in one respect (in my view anyways for what that counts) radagon and marika are the same person but Radagon is the half that wishes to save the current order marika is the one who broke it that’s why she is impaled and crucified while radagon can whip the hammer out and go bonk bonk
But then we must also ask ourselves what if she discovered nothing? What if she found the Elden beast and order and all of it have no real will or purpose and all of the blasphemy she committed in the past was all for not? What if that’s what shadow of the Erdtree will shed light on? What if that’s why miqeulla is doing what he’s doing?
This is why I love and hate Elden ring we have a ring of possible and answers but no concrete center, no anchoring rune we can know anything from all we know is that radagon and marika are one and the only philosopher who would know more is wiggling his fam finger at the sky while his apprentice cries in a corner
Parasite theory was always my favorite interpretation of the Erdtree. Isn't their lore about souls who die get absorbed into the Erdtree?
Not to mention in the final boss arena, we see tons of Erdtrees in the distance, implying that the Greater Will has more of them in other realms, sending them out like probes.
Another cool interpretation IMO is that we the player are the Greater Will, the two fingers being metaphorical for the fingers we use to manipulate the controller and thus the Tarnished. It makes sense, our will is the only one that matters in this world.
The gold imo is kind of like the one ring from Tolkien. It corrupts and consumes anyone who tries to take it over for power. Just look at Marika at the end of the game. It’s just an empty shell. That’s no longer whoever the real Marika was. It’s just like how sorcerers get consumed who try to study the primal current of Star magic. Everyone in this game tries to use something to gain power and they pay the price for it.
I think of the parasitic interpretation to be the one that makes the most sense for me. Power parasite and corrupts and do everything it can to grow stronger and stay alive for as long as possible through whatever means, even it that means being flexible and betraying itself, like it did with the "heretics from the Carian family".
If order cannot prevail trough strength, it will redefine itself to prevail through laws. This is what a lifeform looking to survive anything will do : adapt in whatever way it can to overcome any threats. And what better thing to do for a parasite that is just looking to feed from as many worlds as possible ?
Radagon and Marika are not the same person. They share a body, yes, but clearly have different motivations and personalities. The most clear example of this is Marika trying to shatter the Elden Ring while Radagon was the one trying to repair it, according to the description of Marika's Hammer.
The Tarnished's return and slaying of the Elden Beast was always what Marika wanted, seeing as how she sent Godfrey away on purpose, and wanted her demigod children to claim their places as gods, lords, what have you. It would make no sense for her to block off the Erdtree, especially when Melina is almost certainly her daughter, and Melina herself was created for the purpose of getting into the Erdtree.
Radagon, on the other hand, has been described by Queen Marika herself as a "leal hound of the Golden Order," meaning that she views him as more or less a fanatical dog. His title ingame isn't "Radagon, Second Elden Lord," it's "Radagon of the Golden Order." We never see any sign of Marika developing Golden Order fundamentalist incantations, but we know Radagon personally developed the spell Radagon's Rings of Light as a gift to his son Miquella.
In other words, Radagon is consistently characterized as someone whose very identity revolves around the Golden Order. A loyal and dogmatic servant who is even considered a fundamentalist of the Order. It makes perfect sense for someone like Radagon to seal off the Erdtree, because anyone looking to mend the Elden Ring would likely destroy the current form of the Golden Order and create a new one. He doesn't want the world to change - he wants the world to remain stagnant and dead, as long as the Golden Order in its current form is preserved.
After the DLC I'm beginning to realize that the greater will..... spoilers:
Has had no effect whatsoever on the land's between neither Marika's rule or the two fingers it was all an illusion created by the mother of fingers a broken creation of the greater will who it hasn't communicated with in eons.
About the mistake the three fingers are talking about : The mistake is the gift of life.
Elden Ring's origin, according to the 3 finger's dialogue, seems to be pretty akin to the lord of Dark Souls (which is partially why I believe that what is being told here is NOT a lie) : The world was gray and unchanging and uniform, with neither life nor death, nor anything, really.
The gift of life, that came from the fracture (from the Fire, in Dark Souls), created all those variances : life and death, order and chaos, etc... all the good but also all the bad : death, pain, despair...
The battle between the factions (or the cosmic gods, really) of Elden Ring is nothing more than philosophy, with each faction representing a point of view and clashing with the others, in a battle to determine which one is "right".
The 3 fingers probably came to be because order existed, as they represent pure chaos. No matter what, they're the absolute antithesis to the order. Order seeks to build, organize and control, therefore the chaos seeks to destroy everything in a senseless chaos. It's kind of a yin-yang dynamic.
And just like the order seeks to maintain itself "alive", chaos seeks to make everything melt away and fuse again together. When there is absolutely nothing, there is no chaos but there is no order either. Chaos does not care for self-preservation, which is why it is called madness : because it goes against everything that life is about. That's probably also why the madness incantations can be just as harmful to you as they are to your enemies.
I think you've overlooked a key detail. The Tranished's guidance and immortality. These come from the Greater Will. And no matter what ending you choose, it never revokes these. It has revoked it for many others, but never you.
Another lesser detail I think you should reconsider is Dungeater and Goldmask. Despite how vastly different they are, their heraldry is shockingly similar. A Sun. A great light inspired both men onto their paths to creating their mendings runes. They weren't just random Tarnished. Something directed them both.
We now know that the Greater Will is gone. Metyr, Two Fingers, and the Elden Beast are acting independently, thinking they're acting on behalf of GW but in reality are just making it up, blindly going off of what they *_think_* GW wants.
3:50 - I'm sorry, but did that 3 fingers maiden just describe an allegory to the big bang? Because that's what it sounded like, and if that's the case... then she's not wrong...
Here's a couple of important questions to consider when contemplating the nature of the Greater Will
1. In a scenario where the player defeats Radagon but then dies to the Elden Beast, what would happen next? Would the Elden Beast repair the seal on the Erdtree? Would it return to Radagon and wait for the next challenger? Would it leave the Erdtree and try to return to the Greater Will, or perhaps just rampage until someone defeated it?
2. How far does the scope of the Elden Ring's influence extend? We know it extends across The Lands Between, but we also know other lands exist in this world, like the Land of Reeds or the places across the sea that Marika sent Godfrey and his men. If the rules defined by the Elden Ring govern the natural order of things across the world, and the Shattering War happened centuries ago, then why has no outside nation attempted to take advantage of the civil war stalemate and seize the Elden Ring for themselves? (Keep in mind, the truth about needing to burn the thorns to enter the Erdtree didn't become public knowledge until the player attempts to enter the Erdtree with two Great Runes, so no foreign nation would be aware that only someone with Grace could claim the Elden Ring). Sure, the reputations of the demigods could have scared many of them off, but over that much time, it's hard to believe that no foreign power would try to launch an assault on The Lands Between, or even offer an alliance and military support to one of the demigods to help them win the war.
Well, as for the first one, I would imagine it would simply take the repair rune the player character has and fixed the elden ring. After that, who knows.
Regarding who punished Marika:
The elden beast has a grab attack in which the player is held aloft on a rune (exactly like Marika) and pierced by innumerable golden light spikes.
Still not clear on the red spear but it's something 🤷🏻♂️
I do believe the greater will will accept any kind of order as long as one exists
The Golden Order was formed by the plucking of Destined Death, probably as Marika's answer to the Gloam eyed queen's attack on her demigod children and attempt to take the throne as an Empyrean
I think the Golden Order's aversion to death is built on a more emotional root than their Fundamentalism dictates, since they incorporated so much into the order before and after
In Marika's own words, she decided to study the depths of the Order. Given the term she uses this was probably after Death was banished. She would understand what cosmic thing they are actually dealling with
And what she found was so maddening she decided to shatter the whole thing at the cost of herself and possibly the world
Or maybe she answer she found with Radagon is that the best thing for the world was for nobody to sit on the throne, for no rule to take place, for Order to be forever out of reach
Maybe that's why she collaborated with Ranni if that was the case (Maliketh says she betrayed him and I can only think of the stealing of Death as something he would consider a betrayal)
I neeeeed you to make another one on this now that the dlc is out
Feedback is always good
Don't confuse it with destructive criticism
You make good compelling arguments with the knowledge you have
Love your videos keep doing what your doing
Considering the cosmic nature of the Greater Will, I'm not sure if we can know what its true nature is. The people in the Lands Between and even the two fingers think they know, but we see that the Two Fingers seem to be making stuff up as they go and when they aren't sure what they do anymore they panic and try to communicate which will take an unknowable amount of time. We can either guess that it just really takes a long time to communicate with the GW, that the GW has actually abandoned the Lands Between and that the Two Fingers just don't want to believe it, or that the Two Fingers are buying time to figure out what to do next. I'm not sure what exactly they're doing, and I'm not sure we can know for sure, but I do think that it adds to the cosmic mystery of the GW. People want to say they understand the GW, but I'm not sure anyone in the Lands Between can truly understand it. Maybe getting close to understanding it is what led Marika to shatter the Elden Ring like she did. To me it seems that the developers do want us to believe that the GW is a being that we can understand, but then when we learn about the Elden Beast and see what it is, we have to question that notion, what on earth kind of being could create the beast and send it here, is it something that we can ever truly understand?
I think the answer is likely a middle ground
The Greater Will is a sentient entity with its own goals and consciousness. Its just that its goals are not nessicairly complex or nuanced ones.
It wants order. Whos order? Not its problem, it gives you the tools and lets you go at it yourself, as long as there is order its satisfied with whatever you're doing.
The Greater Will is likely not an "outer god" either. In the Japanese text it is spoken of and described as something more akin to the Christan God. Whereas the Outer Gods are described as something more similar to the Kami of Japanese mythology. Implying the "God hierarchy" goes:
Greater will -> Outer Gods -> Gods Envoys (The Fingers, Elden Beast, Deathbirds) -> Mortal Gods (Marika, Placi's god etc.)
As long as there is order that's what the greater will likes. Actually, this has been a common sentiment in the lore community for sometime if I recall....
Have you seen The Tarnished Archeologist's videos? If not, check out his video on the two and three fingers. Rather than insane, the fingers are like religious scholars and preachers interpreting the will of the divine by observing the universe around them. Golden Order Fundamentalists teach fundamentals like the Law of Causality. All the talk of the Greater Will's feelings could just be metaphorical in the same way priests describe God's wrath. They interpret its will to be Order because that's how they see the world evolve around them.
The Elden Beast/Ring could perhaps be some sort of supreme catalyst for causality, appearing to and effectively warping the nature of cause and effect by its very presence. It would only be natural to worship such a thing as the envoy of all Order. Even if coincidental, it's arrival could still be interpreted as providential.
I think there's a very good case to be made for the Greater Will being an indifferent force of causality that is worshiped as God. The Fingers are just using their apparently enlightened position to shape society under the guidance of Metyr. Metyr is described as being the first meteor to come as an envoy of the Greater Will. What if this whole time Metyr and her many fingers have indeed just been manipulating the lands with an ever-changing religion that reveres concepts like Order? The fingers, so versed in the fundamentals of Order, use their power to manipulate reality on a local scale such that they appear to be (and are) very powerful. But when the Elden Beast/Ring came later, they didn't know what to do about it and panicked. The seemingly random abandonment of the Greater Will to some fingers but not others is, I think, the fingers being lost as to what to do next. We know at some point Metyr seems to seclude herself, leaving the rest of the fingers without a guiding force. Some have simply taken interpretation into their own hands, so to speak.
This is a lot better but still some of your inferences are not quite valid.
Hyetta's words:
"All that there is came from the One Great.
Then came fractures,
and births,
and souls.
But the Greater Will made a mistake.
Torment, despair, affliction...
every sin, every curse.
Every one, born of the mistake."
This dialogue does not imply that the Greater Will came from the One Great, it implies the Greater Will fractured the One Great, every thing and every one born of that which the Frenzied Flame considers a "mistake" it implies that the Greater Will and the One Great are two distinct forms of being.
Will in philosophy is a faculty of the mind by which we perform actions, the Frenzied Flame wishes to burn everything away and restore it to its primordial form, the One Great, which would cease all action, implying stillness, the opposite of action. So from this we can infer that the Greater Will and the One Great are distinct, in that the Greater Will can act and the One Great cannot. And the Greater will acts as the first unmoved mover in Elden Ring.
We can further deduce that the Frenzied Flame is biased, while it is true that every torment despair, affliction, sin, curse, came from what the Greater Will did through that act of dividing the One Great setting it down the path of evolution and distinguishing it, every joy, every shred of happiness, love, kindness, came from that as well, this is by necessity.
There is so much more to the Greater Will though, that I am unable to write in a comment.
So, there's a concept that exists in cosmic horror that few people really delve into because it's hard to wrap your head around.
Cosmic forces could just 'intersect' with reality, without necessarily fully noticing that it's doing so. If the Greater Will is a sentient and engaged entity, it could just be a screaming cosmic mind that only really influences the world in passing. It COULD be communicated with, but only in so much as you can interface with a computer. The Elden Ring itself is the physical representation of the laws of reality, so perhaps the Greater Will is the 'console' that is used by any given being to alter, interact with, or in Merika's case damage, parts of how conceptual reality functions.
Need a video covering the finger mother in dlc and all that stuff
You need to remake this video with the lore from matyr mother of fingers
I personally believe that the Greater Will is a true Lovecraftian deity. it is therefore endowed with intelligence but reasons through canons and concepts that are completely foreign to us (it is therefore a cross between a chaotic force and an intelligent individual).
at the same time this would explain why it needs so many channels to communicate (the two fingers, marika, the elden beast...).
furthermore one wonders why such a powerful and conscious entity does not act directly on the world. if you see the Greater Will as a Lovecraftian deity this problem is quickly solved. there are various possibilities:
- it is, like many gods in the Lovecraft mythos, stuck in a sort of higher or detached plane of existence from which it can only influence the world (this is also suggested by other deities in the game, the formless mother, for example, can " appear" to Mohg only via portals)
- it is so different and alien in his ways of acting and reasoning that it cannot help but use intermediaries
- it has a problem similar to that of the Combine in Half Life, that is, it is too powerful and therefore what happens on the "planet" of the game is only one of the countless cosmic events on which he is acting and he doesn't care what happens on just one of these
(Sorry for bad english 🙃)
I think it's pretty compelling that the greater will is some type of physical being. If you look at all of George RR Martin's writings, I think there may only be one instance where we have an actual confirmed literal God influencing the story. In all of his other stories, most of which are science fiction, the gods of said story are actually just people or physical beings that happen to have great power and use that power to affect change in the world or universe around them, oftentimes by influencing people through more subtle means like sending dreams and visions. So the way I see Eldon ring, this is just an extension of many of the same themes that George RR Martin has been using his entire writing career. Essentially, Elden Ring is a story about some very powerful space being influencing what is ostensibly a medieval society and thus the vocabulary we can use to describe these outer gods is limited by the understanding of a medieval society where technological advancement is relatively minimal because people have certain abilities that us in our world would call magical. However in George RR Martin's writings this wouldn't be magic, but really just abilities that some people have much the same way that some people are better at sports than others. It's also worth noting that George RR Martin wrote an essay where he talks about what he calls the furniture rules wherein he sees no difference between the genres of science fiction and fantasy. George argues that they are essentially one in the same and the only difference between the two is typically just the aesthetic. A person in a medieval society who can teleport would be in a fantasy story, but the ability to teleport might be seen as a science fiction trope. Essentially, the stories are all the same between fantasy and science fiction, but whether a story is considered fantasy or science fiction really just depends on what furniture is in the room at the time. Are there wooden tables rushes and horses or are there metal tables windows and spaceships?
My man. This is gonna need a revisit with the new Metyr lore.