Well done. I am a recently retired controller from that area of ZDC after 30 years in the DC-NY corridor. It was a very challenging and rewarding career, with awesome people.
Bless you 🙏🏻 Dang I would have got ulcers and lung cancer from coffee and cigs. That’s fn stress without being in the cockpit ya have even more souls on your shoulders 🇺🇸
In my 47 year world-wide professional flying career I found the NY Center controllers to be the best in the world. NY area approach and tower controllers tied with Atlanta for their best, respectively. Those guys and gals may sound overloaded (and sometimes are) but for the most part are just doing what it takes to get the job done. I believe that one of the prerequisites for assignment there is to demonstrate the ability to breath through their ears so they never have to hesitate in their comm instructions. Thanx for all they do!!!
Talking about stress, I can't imagine what it was like for the F-16 pilots that followed the Citation knowing that they could do absolutely nothing. My father was an air traffic controller in the Navy. In October, 1969, as our ship headed into Pearl Harbor, he suffered a minor heart attack. In the blink of an eye, his career was ended. He had intended to become a civilian ATC following his retirement just 4 years later. He became a janitor for Ma Bell after retiring. Did that for 20 years.
Wow my uncle was air traffic in Navy at Pearl Harbor toooo..he had just walked out of mess hall when it got hit! They called him Stormy. Bet my uncle knew yours. He was in Korea, WW11 and Nam. Retired, became a bartendar in Vegas for awhile at The Dunes. Man could answer every question Jeopardy threw out, said it was a great way to keep mind sharp lol it didnt work for me, i miss most answers
@@rhondaeverett8284 Dad was Army Air Corps/Air Force at the end of WWII. Was stationed in Berlin at Templehof during the Airlift. Was out from '49-'54 and then went Navy. He was aboard USS Ranger for 3 cruises to Vietnam. He retired in '73 with 23 years of service.
Hi Juan, aside from this tragic event, I just want to thank you and inform viewers of your dedication to your task, away from the beautiful weather in London today!
Very cool to see something I helped work on get used here. The KACY live ATC feed was once hosted by yours truly at my house. Working with Dave over at live ATC we eventually got the equipment moved to the airport proper before I moved back to Memphis. It took forever to get the airport to approve it and I remember troubleshooting some interference in my house with Dave in person when he flew down for the day. I love seeing this being used for something so important. On a side note. I used to host the KMEM live ATC feed too out of my father's house. Unfortunately he passed away in 2020 and I had to sell the house but I was able to get all the gear to a local ham radio club through Dave and that equipment got put in a highrise down town with LoS to KMEM. I'm hoping to get back to hosting a feed soon targeting the olive branch municipal airport in northern ms. Hoping to do that by end of summer. On a side note Dave at live ATC is a great guy and I learned a lot of radio stuff from him. I imagine you have met him too already Juan
Welcome to the UK Juan! I know you might get here quite often but as a Brit I just wanted to welcome you personally. :) I grew up in south London so I know that part of London pretty well. I have gotten away from London now and live a quieter life in Cornwall. Thanks for bring us this vid. I am looking forward to the NTSB report on this one with interest.
Thanks Juan for taking the time from your busy schedule to break down that Cessna's flight and intercept...condolences to those families for their loss.
@ 8:50 right on the money, you have to allow TCAS to do what it is designed to do and not allow other humans (ATC controllers) to interfere until you are out of the danger zone. This lesson has been learned from several fatal accidents in the past.
My response to a pilot advising me he was following a TCAS RA was “ Roger”, (traffic at whatever position it was at), then, “advise when returning to assigned altitude “. This was the standard phraseology a few years ago.
Yep, that's why you want someone like the popular Kennedy Steve when things are extremely busy, or things is about to go south. His ability to handle huge volumes of air traffic on the ground or in the control tower, with ease is legendary and I love to watch his ATC videos on RUclips. 👍
Well done to the controller, he handled it like a champ. Having an F-16 going balls-to-the-wall, throttle firewalled, through busy airspace can't be fun to manage.
@Phillip Banes Yeah... The only way it could get any better is if they'd let ME have the stick... BUT alas, none of the pilots were COMPLETELY batsh*t crazy that day... haha ;o)
@Phillip Banes Well, in the 90's I was still young... and had only ever really spent time in "a flying go-kart"... SO I can't really complain. It was still fun, though. ;o)
Thank you so much for the explanation. As a former German Army Aviation Pilot (Helicopter / 2.500 hrs PIC} I appreciate your channel. And to all student pilots: Please stay out of IMC, check the weather carefully, do a proper preflight-planning including fuel consumption to alternates, have alternate Frequencies on your knee-pad and so on... Believe your Instruments! STAY OUT OF THE SOUP! Sometimes it's better to stay on the ground and enjoy a cup of coffee instead rigging the shoulder harness. And don't trust to luck... Michael
Great breakdown Juan of this unfortunate incident/crash. I REALLY like the fact that YOU specifically aren’t ALL wrapped-up in TRYING TO SPECULATE AS TO ‘WHY’ this aircraft was in distress..and led to the downing and loss of 4 Souls. ANOTHER pretty popular Yt creator-pilot/instructor SHOULD take notice and consider a different approach IMO. Thanks for being a cool head and voice of reason in the GA world Juan..
great explanation juan. When you are immediately stepping in and transmitting as soon as the previous read back comes through is one sure sign that ATC is feeling the stress.
My dad was a controller. He told me that on a busy shift, his airspace is crowded and hes covering another controllers sector while he's on break. He notices 2 aircraft headed directly towards each other. One was an airliner, the other was a Navy fighter. I think it was an F4 Phantom. He adamantly commands the fighter, "[the F4's callsign] REVERSE COURSE IMMEDIATELY" Watching the F4's contact on the radar scope, he said it had been moving towards the airliner, then it stopped, then on the next sweep it was heading in the opposite direction. He didn't turn left or right, I assume he just pushed in the throttle and pulled back on the stick, flipping upside down and reversing the aircraft. I always thought that was a cool story.
@@keithhoss4990 I believe that NORAD also scrambled F16's out of Andrews Joint AFB . Those were most likely the ones causing sonic booms as they raced to catch up.
@@keithhoss4990 a lot of conflicting reports on this intercept. Dan Gryder ("Probable Cause") says the first pair of f-16's got on scene just northeast of Baltimore, were well under the target a/c, authorized to go burner but only one did and for no good reason. They were ordered not to approach until it was past d.c. because it was seen as not a threat.
@@lyleparadise2764 only one went to burner and apparently for no good reason although they were authorized to do so. A pair was also dispatched out of South Carolina but they were too far away to play a role.
Apparently, there were some F-16s that took off from Andrews AFB - BRAVE 01/02 (F-16 DC ANG) to join the intercept. The Baltimore-Washington DC area has heavy traffic at all altitude levels.
My hats off to all our guys and gals in the ATC system. We may curse you under our breath in the cockpit at times, but we know that without YOU..... none of this would ever work.
Thanks Juan. After listening to Dan, I do now wonder about the situation more broadly than a pressure fail. It sounded like this PIC was quite the stickler in his operations. For the sake of the passengers I really hope it was a pressure issue. RIP.
No disrespect to our respected and revered friend Mr. Gryder here, but I think he's way over-reaching in this case, and taking as given facts not in evidence. Yet. He seems to have launched his analysis on the Paine Stewart crash in 1999. Just because Paine Stewart's airplane's windows frosted over, doesn’t mean that's the set-paradigm of how all airplanes, at all times, under all conditions of depressurization will work. Payne Stewart’s crash does not comprise a rulebook of how failures progress. And Stewart’s airplane was flying cold way longer than this Citation did. Maybe (probably) moisture in the Citation's cabin is better contained than in Lear jets flying twenty-five years ago. There is little outside humidity at that altitude, so that wouldn’t really be a factor either. (If memory serves there were plenty of Muroc-era jets in the history of the development of turbine (and rocket-powered, even) aircraft where the pilots wore pressurized suits because they were sitting in unpressurized cockpits… where the insides didn’t freeze up.) Too many assumptions, and too much certainty here on Dan's part. Who knows, he may in the end be proved right, but it’s too soon to jump to the types of conclusions he jumps to in this. And: entirely unnecessarily, to boot. There's no reason for him to feel this right, this early, in the matter.
@@desiatohotblack His analysis has nothing to do with Paine. He had actually done a depressurization himself and the windows fog over as the air can not hold the moisture due to lack of pressure and it becomes a fog. Now with a slow loss the system might keep up with the moisture but most likely not as it would only bleed air. That pilot was also a trainer and expert in pressurization and hypoxia for South West. That plane would also have to blow past the Master Caution and Master Warning. His evidence is also reported by the F16 pilots, it is heresy but the other info from said person rang true, ASI also reported the same findings regarding pilot made by F16 pilots
Thank you Juan, Jeff Hefner was a B-25 airshow colleague and this accident is very upsetting. Single pilot, pilot incapacitation, any one in the right seat could have possibly helped avert this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers to all lost in this accident 💔
Juan I'm always impressed with you analysis of an incident. I'm not a pilot (so to speak) but rather a recreational drone pilot and I had to learn a lot of commercial lingo. You always give a good detailed description of an incident.
I just watched a movie called "Aftermath" that was based on that event. I guess the father of one of the victims ended up murdering the controller who was on duty at the time even though it wasn't his fault.
@@pi.actual correct, DHL followed TCAS, the Russians followed the controller (day late and dollar short), and flew right into the 75. After that both the policy to follow TCAS over controller, and automatic reversal of TCAS commands if the other aircraft does not comply. And the controller was technically at fault, though there were systematic issues contributing.
I'm reminded of the Actor's Studio interviews with James Lipton (they were excellent BTW), specifically where he asked "and what profession would you not like to do?" My response would have been instantaneous - ATC!😉 Another great video Juan👍
excellent breakdown of the audio chatter converted to layman's terms, good stuff. Those fighters flying hot out of NJ buzzed right over our house in Annapolis and it was no joke. Again, hats off to our air traffic controllers as well as our service men and women involved. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
Great job Juan. I fly out of KVKX which is within the DC FRZ and you have done a great job illustrating the complexities and responses when the FRZ is “busted”.
Thanks Juan for the update. If I was in London at the moment for sure I'd be heading for some fish and chips. Been since 1962 when last I was in London and remember the fish and chips fondly.
Thanks for your insights on this! There are lots of people doing videos on this and of course I’m watching them but only a few I’m really taking seriously one of the few being your videos
I imagine it must get pretty stressful for the controllers and pilots in the area when you realize you have two F-16s on max afterburner rocketing across your paths.
My hearing issues mean that I could barely understand anything, but I appreciate your dedication to providing us with this sort of information in the interest of better understanding for the general public and increased safety for those who fly.
My niece lives in Long Island and her husband is a major regional air traffic controller. I believe he handles anything coming and going over the Atlantic. I can easily see how the NE corridors would be high stress and super busy.
Just a note on this i was in my early 30s when i came back to the states and was contemplating a carreer change to ATC and unfortunately found that i was too old to go through the training. Which was a big bummer.
Cool story. I used to pretend I was doing pattern work in a Cessna while sitting on the toilet, including making radio calls through a karaoke machine. I still do, but I used to too.
Thanks, Juan, for another great video and a great explanation of TCAS for the layman. The only thing that I might add is that TCAS RAs only directs the crew in the vertical (climb, descend, maintain current rate of descent or climb, or increase/decrease rate of climb); it does not give the crew horizontal guidance (for example: headings to fly). They all did a good job of threading the F-16s through that busy northeast airspace (Delta 2085's RA-descent, not withstanding), since they were climbing through a main arrival STAR. RIP to all of those aboard the Citation.
I’m amazed when I still hear all the verbal communication chatter between pilots and controllers keeping aircraft in control. With today’s technology, I can see commercial aircraft coming in to Major hubs by automation. Their routing almost perfectly timed and synchronized right down to the runway threshold. With, of course, pilots diligently in command and making all the necessary adjustments.
Years ago I saw an F-16 flying supersonic over Pyramid Lake, Nevada, headed northwest. It was at night, so it was quite a show, with that glowing exhaust and the sonic boom. He flew low over the lake, then went into a steep climb. All over in seconds.
I was at EAFB and I saw a fighter flying miles away over Rogers Dry Lake Bed. My friend says, that s gotta be supersonic. Then it rocked the Huge hanger door next to us. Damn. Lot a surface area to catch that pressure
Great report, Juan, even though you're on the other side of the pond. I noticed someone asked that you consider reporting on the fires in Canada. My best friend lives in Edmonton, and I guess the fires nearest him are to the west... But I understand the ones to the east are causing havoc with the healthy air monitors.
I live in Edmonton. Fires around here are under control. We had some smoke for a couple weeks, but it cleared up quick after some rain. It's a bit smoky again from the northern and western fires further out, but nothing terrible.
Jaun, please try to report on the epic forest fires in Northern woods of Quebec and Ontario. It is a horrific situation. They finally deployed many Ariel resources from the US. Only after days and days
I wonder about what route you took to get to London as NY has been smoke as thick as pea soup. They had to put many flights on hold. Terrible everywhere in the Northeast.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut job, but I saw this the other day... is it not strange that they all seemed to start at the same time? Intended fires, perhaps? ruclips.net/video/qCO1EDshq2I/видео.html
There have been massive wildfires in Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan for more than a month as well. There have been tens of thousands of people evacuated, communities destroyed, and it has been having a major impact on air quality across Canada and the U.S. There have also been impacts at least on GA, I had to cancel my CPL cross-country due to the smoke and I am sure many others in the aviation community are being affected as well.
Reminds me of that private jet that flew from france to germany and ended up in the sea between denmark and sweden. just a few months ago. they were also intercepted. fighter pilots had to watch when the jet ran out of fuel and tumbled into the sea below
It’s the aircraft owner’s / lessor’s discretion whether or not to require two pilots in his owned or leased aircraft. Considering the passengers on board his decision was short-sighted. It appears he chose to save a little money on his flight crew. Especially considering that the passengers were completely incapable of rendering assistance in an emergency. The whole situation is sad, to say the least. It is also apparent that a whole lot of people acted with utmost professionalism.
My thoughts exactly. If someone can afford the luxury of owning one of these jets, then it really would be wise to pay a little more and have a second pilot. Even if it's just a rooky looking to get some hours in.
The pilot had excellent credentials, I would have been very confident with him single pilot vs two lesser experienced pilots. Before and after the crash obviously changes things as its easy to judge the owner after the fact, he thought he was doing the right thing hiring the best of the best. I personally will not fly anywhere with a vaccinated single pilot of any age.
@@HairHelmet I totally agree, that guy was an extremely experienced pilot, just the kind of pilot you would want. But I can bet that have been many multiple of instances where a pilot as had a medical emergency and the second pilot simply took over and landed the plane. Does not matter how good your captain is, if he or she succumbs to some kind of medical emergency, and there is nobody else on board capable of flying the plane, well, everybody on board is going to die. But if there was a second pilot, even a rookie, the outcome would be very different. It is not about looking at this accident with hindsight at all, it's about looking forward and learning from the past. Even if just one owner/operator learns from this incident, it could well save lives in the future. Take commercial aviation, it learns from past accidents, GA really should do the same.
@@100SteveB It's really a tough call all around, we more often than not see dual pilot accidents when it comes to jets (unrelated to medical events). It's not uncommon for older pilots to pass a medical with a wink and a nod. Young pilots make poor decisions until they live through enough close calls to respect the profession (like the trainee I barely avoided in the pattern last night). The crash in question would have been prevented with a co-pilot... and maybe with a better AME as well.
Big fan of the channel here. I'll agree that the Bos-DC-Nyc corridor is a young man's game, but I'm doing just fine at 58 years old still controlling traffic at my little tower! 😆
Good analysis Juan. Hey - if you haven't been to the Old Bank of England over on Fleet Street I'd highly recommend it. It would be a long walk from Victoria, but you could just take the tube. We're over by Marble Arch on layovers, but I still find it hard to stay away from this place. Also over on Fleet Street is the Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese. You can do both in one trip. I'm on the Triple at United. Have fun!
That's got to be one hell of a helpless feeling, watching a plane next you, probably able to see the pilot slumped over in the seat, as you follow for miles hoping they regain consciousness only to watch them slowly drift into the ground.
Good explanation of a TCAS RA. It is imperative if both conflicting aircraft are TCAS equipped that they BOTH follow the RA instructions. There was a horrible mid air about 20 years ago in Europe because one aircraft followed the TCAS instructions and the other followed the controllers. Instead of one climbing and one descending they both did the same and collided.
You are correct. ATC is A high stress job that can prematurely age you out. After 31 years I retired at age 55. I could have gone longer and since they were giving waivers past age 56 due to low staffing levels, could have worked two or three more years. I’d had enough stress and walked away. I’ve haven’t regretted it for one second. It was a great career but now I only worry about getting the garbage out on Thursday mornings for the garbage man. That’s all the stress I want.
Thanks to you and others like you for keeping me safe. I spent lots of time in the air before I retired, and I never worried. About flying, that is! 😂😂
I was visiting with family on Sunday, in Virginia and we heard a rumble, thinking it was was a distant thunder storm. Turns out, we were about 1.5 hours away from the crash site. Also, local news suspects hypoxia.
It might be interesting to note, that TCAS alerts are also sent to the ground via your Mode-S transponder. So the controller should be able to see this in real time. I haven't seen recent scopes, but I assume there is some kind of symbology. Being an ex-AWAC guy, we didn't have Mode-S or GPS in my day 🙂
👍🇺🇸 I think back pre transponder when Tulsa approach put a 707 and I on collision course. CAVU day and i saw him and confirmed my clearance twice, but finally dove abruptly to give clearance. HEADS UP, situational awareness👍👍🇺🇸 lesson learned for the next 40 years
Greetings , Juan . All of the Thankful Your here to teach and give very good advice from before me .Awesome comments ,I 2nd them. This is tragic ,can Anybody`s do something with your older plane that could prevent this . Mortgage the plane to update the tech on it it will last longer so you can leave it in your will., Flying is a Privilege All Prayers for this Family. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
wow great video Juan . doing alot to help us understand this incident .. alot going on for sure .. at the speed of heat so you say . wooo shout out to the ATC keeping things straight.
Well done. I am a recently retired controller from that area of ZDC after 30 years in the DC-NY corridor. It was a very challenging and rewarding career, with awesome people.
You just didn’t say that you enjoyed the job ! Cool bud & thanks !
Thank you for your service.
Bless you 🙏🏻 Dang I would have got ulcers and lung cancer from coffee and cigs. That’s fn stress without being in the cockpit ya have even more souls on your shoulders 🇺🇸
Well done @heavysighs, congratulations on retirement. Always a pleasure to meet a fellow controller, even on the internet 😅
@@MrSuzuki1187 I’m sure we’ve talked. Congratulations sir on your career, and your continued love of aviation.
In my 47 year world-wide professional flying career I found the NY Center controllers to be the best in the world. NY area approach and tower controllers tied with Atlanta for their best, respectively. Those guys and gals may sound overloaded (and sometimes are) but for the most part are just doing what it takes to get the job done. I believe that one of the prerequisites for assignment there is to demonstrate the ability to breath through their ears so they never have to hesitate in their comm instructions. Thanx for all they do!!!
They do fart a lot. My only complaint and it makes the cat run in circles.
Talking about stress, I can't imagine what it was like for the F-16 pilots that followed the Citation knowing that they could do absolutely nothing.
My father was an air traffic controller in the Navy. In October, 1969, as our ship headed into Pearl Harbor, he suffered a minor heart attack. In the blink of an eye, his career was ended. He had intended to become a civilian ATC following his retirement just 4 years later. He became a janitor for Ma Bell after retiring. Did that for 20 years.
Now that’s a role model
That was an era where you could be a janitor and make it your career, and still retire from it.
Now people look down on janitors.
@@JoshuaTootell Only if they are stupid. If you don't have janitors, clean your toilet!
Wow my uncle was air traffic in Navy at Pearl Harbor toooo..he had just walked out of mess hall when it got hit! They called him Stormy. Bet my uncle knew yours. He was in Korea, WW11 and Nam. Retired, became a bartendar in Vegas for awhile at The Dunes. Man could answer every question Jeopardy threw out, said it was a great way to keep mind sharp lol it didnt work for me, i miss most answers
@@rhondaeverett8284 Dad was Army Air Corps/Air Force at the end of WWII. Was stationed in Berlin at Templehof during the Airlift. Was out from '49-'54 and then went Navy. He was aboard USS Ranger for 3 cruises to Vietnam. He retired in '73 with 23 years of service.
Hi Juan, aside from this tragic event, I just want to thank you and inform viewers of your dedication to your task, away from the beautiful weather in London today!
Very cool to see something I helped work on get used here. The KACY live ATC feed was once hosted by yours truly at my house. Working with Dave over at live ATC we eventually got the equipment moved to the airport proper before I moved back to Memphis. It took forever to get the airport to approve it and I remember troubleshooting some interference in my house with Dave in person when he flew down for the day. I love seeing this being used for something so important.
On a side note. I used to host the KMEM live ATC feed too out of my father's house. Unfortunately he passed away in 2020 and I had to sell the house but I was able to get all the gear to a local ham radio club through Dave and that equipment got put in a highrise down town with LoS to KMEM. I'm hoping to get back to hosting a feed soon targeting the olive branch municipal airport in northern ms. Hoping to do that by end of summer.
On a side note Dave at live ATC is a great guy and I learned a lot of radio stuff from him. I imagine you have met him too already Juan
That's th e most baller ATC call ever: "Be advised, traffic is a F-16 in a vertical climb."
Welcome to the UK Juan! I know you might get here quite often but as a Brit I just wanted to welcome you personally. :) I grew up in south London so I know that part of London pretty well. I have gotten away from London now and live a quieter life in Cornwall. Thanks for bring us this vid. I am looking forward to the NTSB report on this one with interest.
Thanks Juan for taking the time from your busy schedule to break down that Cessna's flight and intercept...condolences to those families for their loss.
@ 8:50 right on the money, you have to allow TCAS to do what it is designed to do and not allow other humans (ATC controllers) to interfere until you are out of the danger zone.
This lesson has been learned from several fatal accidents in the past.
My response to a pilot advising me he was following a TCAS RA was “ Roger”, (traffic at whatever position it was at), then, “advise when returning to assigned altitude “. This was the standard phraseology a few years ago.
You don't just allow it, it's pretty much set in stone law now. You always take the RA over the human. ATPL theory student here.
I have no piloting experience but this aviation stuff really interests me. Thanks for you thorough explanation of events.
Same as me.
Yep, that's why you want someone like the popular Kennedy Steve when things are extremely busy, or things is about to go south. His ability to handle huge volumes of air traffic on the ground or in the control tower, with ease is legendary and I love to watch his ATC videos on RUclips. 👍
I miss Kennedy Steve since he retired.
People are STILL talking about this guy.
I love him
AIR traffic on the GROUND. Ground traffic from the tower. Air traffic from the GROUND-controlled-approach
I love how Delta replied “I have the F-16 in a vertical climb”
Well done to the controller, he handled it like a champ. Having an F-16 going balls-to-the-wall, throttle firewalled, through busy airspace can't be fun to manage.
It's only ever fun to be INSIDE the F-16. ;o)
"Traffic in sight in a vertical climb" is something I have never heard on the radio.
@Phillip Banes Yeah... The only way it could get any better is if they'd let ME have the stick... BUT alas, none of the pilots were COMPLETELY batsh*t crazy that day... haha ;o)
@Phillip Banes Well, in the 90's I was still young... and had only ever really spent time in "a flying go-kart"... SO I can't really complain.
It was still fun, though. ;o)
Welcome to London, Juan. I think you are about 10 minutes from my office. Thanks for another fantastic and insightful analysis
Thank you so much for the explanation. As a former German Army Aviation Pilot (Helicopter / 2.500 hrs PIC} I appreciate your channel. And to all student pilots: Please stay out of IMC, check the weather carefully, do a proper preflight-planning including fuel consumption to alternates, have alternate Frequencies on your knee-pad and so on... Believe your Instruments! STAY OUT OF THE SOUP! Sometimes it's better to stay on the ground and enjoy a cup of coffee instead rigging the shoulder harness. And don't trust to luck...
Michael
Great breakdown Juan of this unfortunate incident/crash. I REALLY like the fact that YOU specifically aren’t ALL wrapped-up in TRYING TO SPECULATE AS TO ‘WHY’ this aircraft was in distress..and led to the downing and loss of 4 Souls. ANOTHER pretty popular Yt creator-pilot/instructor SHOULD take notice and consider a different approach IMO. Thanks for being a cool head and voice of reason in the GA world Juan..
great explanation juan. When you are immediately stepping in and transmitting as soon as the previous read back comes through is one sure sign that ATC is feeling the stress.
My dad was a controller. He told me that on a busy shift, his airspace is crowded and hes covering another controllers sector while he's on break. He notices 2 aircraft headed directly towards each other. One was an airliner, the other was a Navy fighter. I think it was an F4 Phantom. He adamantly commands the fighter, "[the F4's callsign] REVERSE COURSE IMMEDIATELY" Watching the F4's contact on the radar scope, he said it had been moving towards the airliner, then it stopped, then on the next sweep it was heading in the opposite direction. He didn't turn left or right, I assume he just pushed in the throttle and pulled back on the stick, flipping upside down and reversing the aircraft.
I always thought that was a cool story.
Wow!
It'd be reckless of that pilot to change altitude like that without clearance.
Wow!
@@roflchopter11 not when taking evasive maneuvers to avoid a mid-air.
yeah that didn't happen
Some tense moments, for sure. Thankful for our air defense systems; RIP to all those aboard the Citation.
@@keithhoss4990 I believe that NORAD also scrambled F16's out of Andrews Joint AFB . Those were most likely the ones causing sonic booms as they raced to catch up.
@@keithhoss4990 a lot of conflicting reports on this intercept. Dan Gryder ("Probable Cause") says the first pair of f-16's got on scene just northeast of Baltimore, were well under the target a/c, authorized to go burner but only one did and for no good reason. They were ordered not to approach until it was past d.c. because it was seen as not a threat.
@@lyleparadise2764 only one went to burner and apparently for no good reason although they were authorized to do so. A pair was also dispatched out of South Carolina but they were too far away to play a role.
Apparently, there were some F-16s that took off from Andrews AFB - BRAVE 01/02 (F-16 DC ANG) to join the intercept. The Baltimore-Washington DC area has heavy traffic at all altitude levels.
Good job Juan as usual,
I remember when we first installed TCAS
On our fleet! It was and is a great system,
AA joe😊
My hats off to all our guys and gals in the ATC system. We may curse you under our breath in the cockpit at times, but we know that without YOU..... none of this would ever work.
Thanks Juan. After listening to Dan, I do now wonder about the situation more broadly than a pressure fail. It sounded like this PIC was quite the stickler in his operations. For the sake of the passengers I really hope it was a pressure issue. RIP.
don't believe it was as windows were not fogged. F16 pilots reported seeing pilot slumped over
No disrespect to our respected and revered friend Mr. Gryder here, but I think he's way over-reaching in this case, and taking as given facts not in evidence. Yet. He seems to have launched his analysis on the Paine Stewart crash in 1999.
Just because Paine Stewart's airplane's windows frosted over, doesn’t mean that's the set-paradigm of how all airplanes, at all times, under all conditions of depressurization will work. Payne Stewart’s crash does not comprise a rulebook of how failures progress. And Stewart’s airplane was flying cold way longer than this Citation did.
Maybe (probably) moisture in the Citation's cabin is better contained than in Lear jets flying twenty-five years ago. There is little outside humidity at that altitude, so that wouldn’t really be a factor either.
(If memory serves there were plenty of Muroc-era jets in the history of the development of turbine (and rocket-powered, even) aircraft where the pilots wore pressurized suits because they were sitting in unpressurized cockpits… where the insides didn’t freeze up.)
Too many assumptions, and too much certainty here on Dan's part.
Who knows, he may in the end be proved right, but it’s too soon to jump to the types of conclusions he jumps to in this. And: entirely unnecessarily, to boot. There's no reason for him to feel this right, this early, in the matter.
@@desiatohotblack You're not wrong.
I didn't think this kind of plane could asphyxiate a pilot. Assuming the lack of response was due to depressurization.
@@desiatohotblack His analysis has nothing to do with Paine. He had actually done a depressurization himself and the windows fog over as the air can not hold the moisture due to lack of pressure and it becomes a fog. Now with a slow loss the system might keep up with the moisture but most likely not as it would only bleed air. That pilot was also a trainer and expert in pressurization and hypoxia for South West. That plane would also have to blow past the Master Caution and Master Warning. His evidence is also reported by the F16 pilots, it is heresy but the other info from said person rang true, ASI also reported the same findings regarding pilot made by F16 pilots
Thank you Juan, Jeff Hefner was a B-25 airshow colleague and this accident is very upsetting. Single pilot, pilot incapacitation, any one in the right seat could have possibly helped avert this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers to all lost in this accident 💔
Juan I'm always impressed with you analysis of an incident. I'm not a pilot (so to speak) but rather a recreational drone pilot and I had to learn a lot of commercial lingo. You always give a good detailed description of an incident.
8:39 the 2002 Überlingen mid-air collision is an example of what can happened if a pilot doesn't follow the TCAS instruction
I just watched a movie called "Aftermath" that was based on that event. I guess the father of one of the victims ended up murdering the controller who was on duty at the time even though it wasn't his fault.
@@pi.actual correct, DHL followed TCAS, the Russians followed the controller (day late and dollar short), and flew right into the 75. After that both the policy to follow TCAS over controller, and automatic reversal of TCAS commands if the other aircraft does not comply. And the controller was technically at fault, though there were systematic issues contributing.
@@pi.actual Think he was extradited to Russia with the promise he'd face charges and then I think they did not in fact do that.
@@robertgaudet7407 I'm pretty sure the movie I watched with Arnold Schwarzenegger was not factually accurate, they just made up a lot of stuff.
@@pi.actual What a shame, I always relied on Arnold for starring in fairly accurate documentary type films.
I'm reminded of the Actor's Studio interviews with James Lipton (they were excellent BTW), specifically where he asked "and what profession would you not like to do?" My response would have been instantaneous - ATC!😉 Another great video Juan👍
excellent breakdown of the audio chatter converted to layman's terms, good stuff. Those fighters flying hot out of NJ buzzed right over our house in Annapolis and it was no joke. Again, hats off to our air traffic controllers as well as our service men and women involved. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
Wow.
I like your new spectacles. Very smart.Have a great time in London.
Thanks for the update, keep on this.
Had a friend ATC 🇺🇸 out of the tower a lot earlier than 56.
Best to you Scott Whitmire
Still not paid enough.
As always, great job helping us non-pilot types understand what was going on, Juan. Appreciate your channel!
Good job Juan! Your remote video coverage of this tragic incident is much appreciated.
Great job Juan. I fly out of KVKX which is within the DC FRZ and you have done a great job illustrating the complexities and responses when the FRZ is “busted”.
Thanks Juan for the update. If I was in London at the moment for sure I'd be heading for some fish and chips. Been since 1962 when last I was in London and remember the fish and chips fondly.
Juan, your work is deeply appreciated.
Juan, thanks for the additional detail on this tragedy. Things got really busy there, controller handled the situation well.
Vital reminders well presented, Juan. ATC was amazing. RIP to the souls lost.
Another excellent report from the Roving Blancolirio World HQ.
Thanks for keeping us up to date on this.
You're awesome, Juan...appreciate your analysis so much.
Thanks for all you do, Mr. Browne. Your commentary is always objective, intelligent, and informative.
Thanks for the Citation update JB, even when you're on duty and abroad.
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏼🤟🏼
Many thanks for the informative content Juan. Best wishes to you and yours, Rich.
Fun to listen to both the controllers and the pilots doing a great job (including quickly correcting the one error).
Juan, I know this takes some time to put together. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Thanks for your insights on this! There are lots of people doing videos on this and of course I’m watching them but only a few I’m really taking seriously one of the few being your videos
I imagine it must get pretty stressful for the controllers and pilots in the area when you realize you have two F-16s on max afterburner rocketing across your paths.
My hearing issues mean that I could barely understand anything, but I appreciate your dedication to providing us with this sort of information in the interest of better understanding for the general public and increased safety for those who fly.
Just turn on CC closed captions button to "see" the words on the screen
It was difficult for those with fine hearing
@@jeanetteshawredden5643 I had it on in the kitchen while I was cooking.
Juan explained it well enough that I got the gist of things.
Thanks again JB for the detailed breakdown for us non pilots. Cheers from OZ, Evan.,
What a tough wrench to throw into the system - but the system held.
My niece lives in Long Island and her husband is a major regional air traffic controller. I believe he handles anything coming and going over the Atlantic. I can easily see how the NE corridors would be high stress and super busy.
Bless all ATC in that area 👍
Just a note on this i was in my early 30s when i came back to the states and was contemplating a carreer change to ATC and unfortunately found that i was too old to go through the training. Which was a big bummer.
Post Raegan era firing I presume.
Cool story. I used to pretend I was doing pattern work in a Cessna while sitting on the toilet, including making radio calls through a karaoke machine. I still do, but I used to too.
I've just posted your video to the 177th F-16 (Cosmic - Jersey Devils) alumni group. Your efforts are very appreciated, sir.
Excellent description of this very stressful situation for all involved. A day to remember for the atc personnel.
Thanks for the update.Deepest sympathy to the families.
Thanks, Juan, for another great video and a great explanation of TCAS for the layman.
The only thing that I might add is that TCAS RAs only directs the crew in the vertical (climb, descend, maintain current rate of descent or climb, or increase/decrease rate of climb); it does not give the crew horizontal guidance (for example: headings to fly).
They all did a good job of threading the F-16s through that busy northeast airspace (Delta 2085's RA-descent, not withstanding), since they were climbing through a main arrival STAR.
RIP to all of those aboard the Citation.
I’m amazed when I still hear all the verbal communication chatter between pilots and controllers keeping aircraft in control. With today’s technology, I can see commercial aircraft coming in to Major hubs by automation. Their routing almost perfectly timed and synchronized right down to the runway threshold. With, of course, pilots diligently in command and making all the necessary adjustments.
Your videos are the best. Right to the point and very good clear information. Thank you.
Thanks!
Thanks Michael!
Awesome info Mr. Juan. Have a Safe flight back across the A. Pond.
Years ago I saw an F-16 flying supersonic over Pyramid Lake, Nevada, headed northwest. It was at night,
so it was quite a show, with that glowing exhaust and the sonic boom. He flew low over the lake, then went into a steep climb. All over in seconds.
I was at EAFB and I saw a fighter flying miles away over Rogers Dry Lake Bed. My friend says, that s gotta be supersonic. Then it rocked the Huge hanger door next to us. Damn. Lot a surface area to catch that pressure
Great report, Juan, even though you're on the other side of the pond. I noticed someone asked that you consider reporting on the fires in Canada. My best friend lives in Edmonton, and I guess the fires nearest him are to the west... But I understand the ones to the east are causing havoc with the healthy air monitors.
I live in Edmonton. Fires around here are under control. We had some smoke for a couple weeks, but it cleared up quick after some rain. It's a bit smoky again from the northern and western fires further out, but nothing terrible.
7:04 "and the third aircraft actually wants to be the F-16"
Jaun, please try to report on the epic forest fires in Northern woods of Quebec and Ontario. It is a horrific situation. They finally deployed many Ariel resources from the US. Only after days and days
Good idea!
I wonder about what route you took to get to London as NY has been smoke as thick as pea soup. They had to put many flights on hold. Terrible everywhere in the Northeast.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut job, but I saw this the other day... is it not strange that they all seemed to start at the same time? Intended fires, perhaps? ruclips.net/video/qCO1EDshq2I/видео.html
@@nancychace8619 The last time i checked you can fly through smoke !!
There have been massive wildfires in Northern Alberta and Saskatchewan for more than a month as well. There have been tens of thousands of people evacuated, communities destroyed, and it has been having a major impact on air quality across Canada and the U.S. There have also been impacts at least on GA, I had to cancel my CPL cross-country due to the smoke and I am sure many others in the aviation community are being affected as well.
“F16 in vertical climb” is enough to get anyone worried.
Excellent reporting and education, as always. Thanks for all you do!
Great coverage Juan, as usual!
Reminds me of that private jet that flew from france to germany and ended up in the sea between denmark and sweden. just a few months ago. they were also intercepted. fighter pilots had to watch when the jet ran out of fuel and tumbled into the sea below
New Jersey Air National Guard have manpower and equipment at the ready. Nicely done and reassuring. Word is they went supersonic !
It’s the aircraft owner’s / lessor’s discretion whether or not to require two pilots in his owned or leased aircraft. Considering the passengers on board his decision was short-sighted. It appears he chose to save a little money on his flight crew. Especially considering that the passengers were completely incapable of rendering assistance in an emergency.
The whole situation is sad, to say the least. It is also apparent that a whole lot of people acted with utmost professionalism.
My thoughts exactly. If someone can afford the luxury of owning one of these jets, then it really would be wise to pay a little more and have a second pilot. Even if it's just a rooky looking to get some hours in.
The pilot had excellent credentials, I would have been very confident with him single pilot vs two lesser experienced pilots. Before and after the crash obviously changes things as its easy to judge the owner after the fact, he thought he was doing the right thing hiring the best of the best. I personally will not fly anywhere with a vaccinated single pilot of any age.
@@HairHelmet I totally agree, that guy was an extremely experienced pilot, just the kind of pilot you would want. But I can bet that have been many multiple of instances where a pilot as had a medical emergency and the second pilot simply took over and landed the plane. Does not matter how good your captain is, if he or she succumbs to some kind of medical emergency, and there is nobody else on board capable of flying the plane, well, everybody on board is going to die. But if there was a second pilot, even a rookie, the outcome would be very different.
It is not about looking at this accident with hindsight at all, it's about looking forward and learning from the past. Even if just one owner/operator learns from this incident, it could well save lives in the future. Take commercial aviation, it learns from past accidents, GA really should do the same.
@@100SteveB It's really a tough call all around, we more often than not see dual pilot accidents when it comes to jets (unrelated to medical events). It's not uncommon for older pilots to pass a medical with a wink and a nod. Young pilots make poor decisions until they live through enough close calls to respect the profession (like the trainee I barely avoided in the pattern last night).
The crash in question would have been prevented with a co-pilot... and maybe with a better AME as well.
Well done. It's impressive to see how complicated how fast.
Thank you, Juan.
Condolences to families and friends.
Too funny! Welcome to London, we’ve been here since last Friday. Good video Juan.
Big fan of the channel here. I'll agree that the Bos-DC-Nyc corridor is a young man's game, but I'm doing just fine at 58 years old still controlling traffic at my little tower! 😆
Welcome back to the UK Juan, thanks for the update.
"Delta has the F-16 in a vertical climb" 😎
Good analysis Juan. Hey - if you haven't been to the Old Bank of England over on Fleet Street I'd highly recommend it. It would be a long walk from Victoria, but you could just take the tube. We're over by Marble Arch on layovers, but I still find it hard to stay away from this place. Also over on Fleet Street is the Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese. You can do both in one trip. I'm on the Triple at United. Have fun!
Thanks Juan. Enjoy your stop over in London. Mick.🇬🇧
Great breakdown as always Juan - enjoy your time in London!
That's got to be one hell of a helpless feeling, watching a plane next you, probably able to see the pilot slumped over in the seat, as you follow for miles hoping they regain consciousness only to watch them slowly drift into the ground.
If it was a slow leak, the passengers were incapacitated too
Amazing work by the ATC. Job well done
One of the best channels on YT.
Controller sounded anxious but was completely on his game. Well done.
Good explanation of a TCAS RA. It is imperative if both conflicting aircraft are TCAS equipped that they BOTH follow the RA instructions. There was a horrible mid air about 20 years ago in Europe because one aircraft followed the TCAS instructions and the other followed the controllers. Instead of one climbing and one descending they both did the same and collided.
The movie "Aftermath" starring Schwarzenegger is about this mid-air accident.
Thank you for breaking this down to us Juan. Hopefully you found a good restaurant.
You are correct. ATC is A high stress job that can prematurely age you out. After 31 years I retired at age 55. I could have gone longer and since they were giving waivers past age 56 due to low staffing levels, could have worked two or three more years. I’d had enough stress and walked away. I’ve haven’t regretted it for one second. It was a great career but now I only worry about getting the garbage out on Thursday mornings for the garbage man. That’s all the stress I want.
Thanks to you and others like you for keeping me safe. I spent lots of time in the air before I retired, and I never worried. About flying, that is! 😂😂
I totally agree! After almost 40 years in the cockpit, I feel the same way! Now if I can only make a couple more putts! 😉
Thanks Juan. Very clear explanation. Many folks done understand difference between TCAD and TCAS…..
Ooooh I’ve been waiting to hear these. 😢
your office is Brilliant.....cheers Juan.....Paul in Orlando
I was visiting with family on Sunday, in Virginia and we heard a rumble, thinking it was was a distant thunder storm. Turns out, we were about 1.5 hours away from the crash site. Also, local news suspects hypoxia.
It might be interesting to note, that TCAS alerts are also sent to the ground via your Mode-S transponder. So the controller should be able to see this in real time. I haven't seen recent scopes, but I assume there is some kind of symbology. Being an ex-AWAC guy, we didn't have Mode-S or GPS in my day 🙂
Controllers don't see tcas alerts. We are required to issue a traffic alert and an instruction. It's up to the pilot to after that.
👍🇺🇸
I think back pre transponder when Tulsa approach put a 707 and I on collision course. CAVU day and i saw him and confirmed my clearance twice, but finally dove abruptly to give clearance. HEADS UP, situational awareness👍👍🇺🇸 lesson learned for the next 40 years
Greetings , Juan . All of the Thankful Your here to teach and give very good advice from before me .Awesome comments ,I 2nd them. This is tragic ,can Anybody`s do something with your older plane that could prevent this . Mortgage the plane to update the tech on it it will last longer so you can leave it in your will., Flying is a Privilege All Prayers for this Family. My condolences to the families of those who lost loved ones.
👍👍👍👍👍 FACINATING EXPLANATION of real time action in the cockpit. THANKS AGAIN JUAN 👌 😍😍😍😍😍🙏
Thank for sharing this. Very informative as always. BTW those ATC guys simply rock..
wow great video Juan . doing alot to help us understand this incident .. alot going on for sure .. at the speed of heat so you say . wooo shout out to the ATC keeping things straight.
Thank you for your very fascinating channel. I feel certain your are saving lives
Thanks, Juan. Enjoyed the synchronous "pen bearings!"
Must have been a breathtaking experience.
Great stuff here-- love the pen and finger direction indicators, keeps some perspective.