I still have GoSun Grill solar cooker from their 2015 Kickstarter campaign and it's still kicking & cooking. It's bulky and hadn't made financial sense, but a fun product attracting curious people at beach and park.
Great product, it is a solution for use cases where the cost is not the biggest factor, but perhaps convenience or lack of access to a plug are significant factors.
Good interview Steve. You asked some tough and relevant questions. And Patrick was surprisingly candid and clear with his answers. Admitting to the limitations as well as highlighting the benefits of this product. Plus he provided some insight to how GoSun approached the product development challenges. Which was interesting, and it mirrors a lot of the development hurdles that Aptera has had to go through.
Yesterday I was watching Sandy Munro's channel where he takes a tour in SAKUU battery tech. Boy! I am glad to hear that they are coming out with 'Metal Free' printed batteries that has a better energy density (both Gravimetric and Volumetric) ~350 Wh/Kg, cheaper and safer ones. Imagine what they could do to EV industry and possibly Electric Aviation too. Not to forget the CATL's Condenser Battery claims.
@@tims8603 It does not even have thermal runaway issues (or may be limited). Which means on a battery pack level, you don't need so much cooling logic - again saves weight and cost.
Lithium batteries were never the right choice but watching the industry use such heavy and low energy density packs has been brutal. It seems humans just can't wait until all the important factors balance each other out. Instead we go for the short term solutions. Let's hope these lighter weight and higher energy density packs make it.
Great interview. Great questions. Great answers. To me, this doesn't make sense for the Aptera UNLESS it can be put in the back and pulled out and laid down adjacent when the Aptera is parked. His system can produce up to 1200 W (vs. the Aptera's 700 W). The 500 W benefit (laying down the Gosun over the Aptera) doesn't seem to overcome the aerodynamic and aesthetic hit.
What I might be interested in for my Aptera would be a much smaller package that could fold up into something like a large briefcase (maybe 9 inches thick) and be unfolded and setup on the ground to provide 400 supplemental watts. This array could be rotated to provide for more optimal solar capture. Something this size could be kept in Aptera for use as necessary. The key factor would be solar panel thickness as this would require multiple layers to fold into this space. It’s output could probably plug in directly to Aptera will little additional electronics. (But I can charge at home for 4¢/KWh so this would serve as additional field charging occasionally)
Covering 20 miles per day may not be significant, particularly for frequent commuters. Although setting it up takes only a minute, the inconvenience becomes apparent when you have to do it 3-4 times a day at different stops while running errands “Just to get that 20 miles” Additionally, it obstructs two crucial cameras on the car, both rear and front. Moreover, there is a risk of thieves damaging it. I really like Aptera approach. Finally, I do believe this has a market but it’s going to be smaller than small. Good luck to the company however.
One also needs to account for the increased drag caused by the roof box, which may reduce the range gain further. If the commute is at high speeds, it might plausibly be negative, especially if the box is left on the roof during the occasional longer drive.
@@robertkirchner7981 I just don’t see any upsides to this product. But as i mentioned, It does have a demographic! But it certainly won’t appeal to the masses. It’s kinda tacky.
Reminds me of the similar effort by EVSK (Electric Vehicle Solar Kit) out of Austin, TX. They have been in development for years on a system with a roof mountable array and buffer battery. Maybe you can interview them next on their progress. They proposed a universal system that folds out from the trunk of an EV, hence no wind resistance penalty. Great for camping in the wilds...
8-10% added drag can be compensated for by slowing down 4-5% i.e. 2-3 MPH. Bigger battery and solar options please for eSprinter and other big electric vans.
By the description, I was expecting a monstrosity, but then I checked out the website! Pretty damn elegant for lots of different applications. Nice package.
I'm not sure why I'd want one of these for an Aptera, but if I could get 20 miles of range on a sunny day in Georgia (net of all the factors discussed here), I'd consider one for my Bolt EV though I'd need a NACS adapter that still doesn't exist and could involve more losses. I pay about three cents per mile (12c/kwh) to charge at home, so even at two grand, I'd need to get the 20 miles of range over 3300 times to pay for the panels, so ten years of sunny days, much more than a decade in reality. I think I just considered it ... Even 40 miles/day from the Aptera is marginal. I want an Aptera for the efficiency, twice the miles/kwh compared to my Bolt. The solar panels are more of a gimmick. I'll plug in to charge anyway, only less frequently. Charging my Bolt at home is already a quarter of the cost of pumping gas in a comparable ICEV, so Aptera's incredible efficiency won't save me a fortune on fuel, but I love the way the vehicle looks, and I like the idea of driving the most efficient car on the road regardless of solar.
Power, at least for now, their approach is a universal one. It could work with pretty much any EV or plug-in hybrid. It would probably be a great fit with the Prius Prime.
Thx Steve/ Patrick. Media Acclaim for GoSun EV Solar Charger I just read in Go Sun’s ad Congrats! Patrick With the NAVI program slowly rolling out fot EV charging along US Highways…perhaps you can create a more robust PV solar solution that could be used at these locations. Based On the Mtg I attended yesterday, in my state, The configuration of the charging space/ equipment can vary…as each contractors’ proposal can differ ( and must be approved)… There are minimal requirements .But there could be more basic DCFC ( 150 kW ) to Solar shade structures and more… every fifty miles along “designated highways” ( one mile from said highway ) I can imagine solar/ battery powered security systems, lighting, etc…
Self-reliance for electricity is for hobbyists, mostly relatively wealthy, and niches. Solar at industrial levels is far cheaper per kWh than roof-top. And running wires to loads is fine for all but mobile. Without Aptera's efficiency, this add-on system does not seem to make economic sense. Interesting, but for folks with excess money.
It's a really cool idea, but I don't know the value is really worth it. Just doing the math on a Model 3 long range you only spend about $300-400 on electricity a year. With that it'd take just a bit under 10 years to break even and at that point the panels are likely reaching end of life. It's very cool for those who can only park on the street, but the value it really iffy. Now if you have incentives where you live the value is a bit better, but not everyone can get that. I think it'd be better value if it was wired pasted the charge port as then it could give constant power, but that requires some serious modifications. Otherwise as it currently stands I kinda wonder the purpose of it staying on the car. It being on the roof does lower efficiency so why not just have something placed on your front yard?
A lot of folks commute to work each day (I did for 30+ years) where their car sits outside for 10 hours. And for those without a home-plug (renters, etc), their annual charging cost can easily be over $1000. I have garage plugs, but if public charging was my only source of electricity, I wouldn't own my two EVs ... too much hassle. So depending on your use-case, this GoSun device could be both a good investment and a great convenience ... IMO.
I would worry about vandalism if leaving it on the vehicle unattended. if you need to be home in a secure location then no point since normal panels could be used. if you are not home staying with your car while it solar charges makes no sense.
@@paulrybarczyk5013 yeah but like I said, you're efficiency will be really poor with what is quite literally a brick on your roof. Your efficiency will at least go down half a mile per kilowatt so you'll be burning even more power. And if you're paying that much in electricity I'm not sure an EV was a good fit for you. That is unless you live in California where gas is absurdly priced for some reason. If you pay more than $0.30/kwh you're spending more on electricity than you would with an efficient gas car. Especially right now in the US where the average cost of gas is $3.55 right now. Doing the math for California the crossover is more around $0.37.
@@ccibinel I won't deny having solar on your roof does have added costs beyond just the panels though. You have to pay for professions, possibly a new roof, contracts from the city, etc. That's really the main benefit of panels in other places. When he said flexible panels at first I thought he was saying they were gonna be like stickers on your car.
I feel like if this guy and his team had responsibility for the development, testing, and manufacturing at Aptera, commencing in '21, you would actually be driving them next year. Would have been a great fit for them. Relaxed, savvy, and gets the product out the door. He's a wild man with the range of products he's done.
I imagine an aptera-friendly version could attach to the underside of the hatch, and integrate with a variation of the camping tent. And of course fold out like wings when parked (nose to the south, ideally).
I would buy this for my car if there were a trailer hitch mount option. I have a 2019 IONIQ, very aerodynamic car and I get zero range degradation from having cargo in the aero "shadow" of the car. This unit would give me near 40miles on my car daily!! 5.2mi/kwh average
Just a few rule of thumb numbers: The power density from sun light at noon, sea level, on a clear day, is ~1000W per square meter. If they put 2 square meters of panel on top of the car and get 20% efficiency (a good number for Si cells), that's 400W electricity. For a good 5 hours of sun shine (sun light is not always hitting the panel vertically), you get 2kwh energy. The idea is good but the limit of some of those numbers are difficult to overcome.
For Aptera this doesn't seem worthwhile unless it can be used to augment the built-in as you suggested. Especially at $3K cost. For cars like the M3, that range loss factor is going to be make or break I think. at 10% range loss you'd basically break even and that assumes you can sit the car in full sun all day. And the M3 is more efficient than most EV's on the road.
Sounds like his product would be good for other ev's not Aptera. Aptera already will have full solar till they start to make special models. 400 miles of range is insane and clearly won't need his product. Sounds great for larger evs though :).
@Okurka All eyes will definitely be on the PI2. They better have all the solar mounted/functional, doors and rear hatch nicely fitting/latching with proper struts, nicely fitted glass, wipers, wrap it, and be able to actually go drive the thing 400 miles at a reasonable speed with some "real reviewers" coming back with ""Hey, this thing is pretty sweet". Regen, charging times, HVAC that actually works, not sounding like a stagecoach over the bumps, the sub not resonating the shell like a garbage can, a 35' turning circle, etc.. 5 years of "Amazing" and Junior's 1,000 "Cool"s "tell everyone what to think" BS needs to give way to this thing speaking for itself like a real product. Has been entertaining, but let's get serious now. Has the wait been worth it?
This video shows aptera in abu dhabi, on the screen you can see output of solar in watts being shown, 10watts in shade, and during the drive you can make out some figures, ruclips.net/video/8a2wVOuGWbY/видео.html Lets see some data from the display when car is in the sun, why has this never been shown in detail, it would see that since its a solar car and the display shows the watts and miles gained from solar, why not actually do a video showing us what it actually makes on a sunny day.
Sorry, but this is Idiocracy.. It doesn’t take ingenuity to come up with solar panels that fold out on your roof racks. I think it’s Basically, like the homer Simpson car
We all have opinions. I think that productizing it in an easy to use form and selling at a reasonable price is quite an achievement. You open it up on you car roof, unfold it, and you have 1200 watts of panels adding some charge to your car when it is parked on the sun. It looks like a great product.
I still have GoSun Grill solar cooker from their 2015 Kickstarter campaign and it's still kicking & cooking.
It's bulky and hadn't made financial sense, but a fun product attracting curious people at beach and park.
@MistSoalar “Fun products that don’t make financial sense”.
There’s my problem right there!
We need more of such great people and companies.
Great product, it is a solution for use cases where the cost is not the biggest factor, but perhaps convenience or lack of access to a plug are significant factors.
Good interview Steve. You asked some tough and relevant questions. And Patrick was surprisingly candid and clear with his answers. Admitting to the limitations as well as highlighting the benefits of this product. Plus he provided some insight to how GoSun approached the product development challenges. Which was interesting, and it mirrors a lot of the development hurdles that Aptera has had to go through.
Yesterday I was watching Sandy Munro's channel where he takes a tour in SAKUU battery tech. Boy! I am glad to hear that they are coming out with 'Metal Free' printed batteries that has a better energy density (both Gravimetric and Volumetric) ~350 Wh/Kg, cheaper and safer ones. Imagine what they could do to EV industry and possibly Electric Aviation too. Not to forget the CATL's Condenser Battery claims.
I saw that too. I think it's still in the prototype stage but it looks good.
@@tims8603 It does not even have thermal runaway issues (or may be limited). Which means on a battery pack level, you don't need so much cooling logic - again saves weight and cost.
@@Soothsayer210 The fact that the pouches can just be stacked on top of each over was mind blowing. No welding individual cells together.
Lithium batteries were never the right choice but watching the industry use such heavy and low energy density packs has been brutal. It seems humans just can't wait until all the important factors balance each other out. Instead we go for the short term solutions. Let's hope these lighter weight and higher energy density packs make it.
@@speciesofspaces When they were invented in the 90s, they were a major breakthrough. It's, relatively new tech.
I'm planning out an EV overlanding build, and this thing is definitely one of my first purchases.
Great interview. Great questions. Great answers. To me, this doesn't make sense for the Aptera UNLESS it can be put in the back and pulled out and laid down adjacent when the Aptera is parked. His system can produce up to 1200 W (vs. the Aptera's 700 W). The 500 W benefit (laying down the Gosun over the Aptera) doesn't seem to overcome the aerodynamic and aesthetic hit.
A trailer version could be towed by an Aptera or any vehicle.
@@glike2 I'd stick it in the back and put it out while camping. (Driving during the evening to new sites).
But it is great addition to Tesla 3 and Y
What I might be interested in for my Aptera would be a much smaller package that could fold up into something like a large briefcase (maybe 9 inches thick) and be unfolded and setup on the ground to provide 400 supplemental watts. This array could be rotated to provide for more optimal solar capture. Something this size could be kept in Aptera for use as necessary. The key factor would be solar panel thickness as this would require multiple layers to fold into this space. It’s output could probably plug in directly to Aptera will little additional electronics. (But I can charge at home for 4¢/KWh so this would serve as additional field charging occasionally)
Covering 20 miles per day may not be significant, particularly for frequent commuters. Although setting it up takes only a minute, the inconvenience becomes apparent when you have to do it 3-4 times a day at different stops while running errands “Just to get that 20 miles” Additionally, it obstructs two crucial cameras on the car, both rear and front. Moreover, there is a risk of thieves damaging it. I really like Aptera approach. Finally, I do believe this has a market but it’s going to be smaller than small. Good luck to the company however.
One also needs to account for the increased drag caused by the roof box, which may reduce the range gain further. If the commute is at high speeds, it might plausibly be negative, especially if the box is left on the roof during the occasional longer drive.
@@robertkirchner7981 I just don’t see any upsides to this product. But as i mentioned, It does have a demographic! But it certainly won’t appeal to the masses. It’s kinda tacky.
@@robertkirchner7981 great point.
A trailer version could be towed by an Aptera or any vehicle.
Bigger battery and solar options please for eSprinter and other big electric vans.
Reminds me of the similar effort by EVSK (Electric Vehicle Solar Kit) out of Austin, TX. They have been in development for years on a system with a roof mountable array and buffer battery. Maybe you can interview them next on their progress. They proposed a universal system that folds out from the trunk of an EV, hence no wind resistance penalty. Great for camping in the wilds...
8-10% added drag can be compensated for by slowing down 4-5% i.e. 2-3 MPH.
Bigger battery and solar options please for eSprinter and other big electric vans.
By the description, I was expecting a monstrosity, but then I checked out the website! Pretty damn elegant for lots of different applications. Nice package.
You should check out solarolla, they do something similar but on a much smaller scale.
I'm not sure why I'd want one of these for an Aptera, but if I could get 20 miles of range on a sunny day in Georgia (net of all the factors discussed here), I'd consider one for my Bolt EV though I'd need a NACS adapter that still doesn't exist and could involve more losses.
I pay about three cents per mile (12c/kwh) to charge at home, so even at two grand, I'd need to get the 20 miles of range over 3300 times to pay for the panels, so ten years of sunny days, much more than a decade in reality. I think I just considered it ...
Even 40 miles/day from the Aptera is marginal. I want an Aptera for the efficiency, twice the miles/kwh compared to my Bolt. The solar panels are more of a gimmick. I'll plug in to charge anyway, only less frequently.
Charging my Bolt at home is already a quarter of the cost of pumping gas in a comparable ICEV, so Aptera's incredible efficiency won't save me a fortune on fuel, but I love the way the vehicle looks, and I like the idea of driving the most efficient car on the road regardless of solar.
No wonder go sun sounded so familiar I have always wanted their solar oven.
This is a great idea.
Very informative Steve, nicely done!
Sounds to me like he needs a EE to make him a universal DC interface and ditch the battery.
Power, at least for now, their approach is a universal one. It could work with pretty much any EV or plug-in hybrid. It would probably be a great fit with the Prius Prime.
Thanks for this great video. Great info.
Thx Steve/ Patrick.
Media Acclaim for GoSun EV Solar Charger I just read in Go Sun’s ad
Congrats! Patrick With the NAVI program slowly rolling out fot EV charging along US Highways…perhaps you can create a more robust PV solar solution that could be used at these locations. Based On the Mtg I attended yesterday, in my state, The configuration of the charging space/ equipment can vary…as each contractors’ proposal can differ ( and must be approved)… There are minimal requirements .But there could be more basic DCFC ( 150 kW ) to Solar shade structures and more… every fifty miles along “designated highways” ( one mile from said highway ) I can imagine solar/ battery powered security systems, lighting, etc…
Cool stuff. Anything to help decrease carbon footprint is a good thing.
Get a bicycle.
@@Okurka. get a life
Self-reliance for electricity is for hobbyists, mostly relatively wealthy, and niches. Solar at industrial levels is far cheaper per kWh than roof-top. And running wires to loads is fine for all but mobile. Without Aptera's efficiency, this add-on system does not seem to make economic sense. Interesting, but for folks with excess money.
It's a really cool idea, but I don't know the value is really worth it. Just doing the math on a Model 3 long range you only spend about $300-400 on electricity a year. With that it'd take just a bit under 10 years to break even and at that point the panels are likely reaching end of life.
It's very cool for those who can only park on the street, but the value it really iffy. Now if you have incentives where you live the value is a bit better, but not everyone can get that.
I think it'd be better value if it was wired pasted the charge port as then it could give constant power, but that requires some serious modifications. Otherwise as it currently stands I kinda wonder the purpose of it staying on the car. It being on the roof does lower efficiency so why not just have something placed on your front yard?
A lot of folks commute to work each day (I did for 30+ years) where their car sits outside for 10 hours. And for those without a home-plug (renters, etc), their annual charging cost can easily be over $1000. I have garage plugs, but if public charging was my only source of electricity, I wouldn't own my two EVs ... too much hassle. So depending on your use-case, this GoSun device could be both a good investment and a great convenience ... IMO.
I would worry about vandalism if leaving it on the vehicle unattended. if you need to be home in a secure location then no point since normal panels could be used. if you are not home staying with your car while it solar charges makes no sense.
@@paulrybarczyk5013 yeah but like I said, you're efficiency will be really poor with what is quite literally a brick on your roof. Your efficiency will at least go down half a mile per kilowatt so you'll be burning even more power.
And if you're paying that much in electricity I'm not sure an EV was a good fit for you. That is unless you live in California where gas is absurdly priced for some reason. If you pay more than $0.30/kwh you're spending more on electricity than you would with an efficient gas car. Especially right now in the US where the average cost of gas is $3.55 right now. Doing the math for California the crossover is more around $0.37.
@@ccibinel I won't deny having solar on your roof does have added costs beyond just the panels though. You have to pay for professions, possibly a new roof, contracts from the city, etc. That's really the main benefit of panels in other places. When he said flexible panels at first I thought he was saying they were gonna be like stickers on your car.
I feel like if this guy and his team had responsibility for the development, testing, and manufacturing at Aptera, commencing in '21, you would actually be driving them next year.
Would have been a great fit for them.
Relaxed, savvy, and gets the product out the door.
He's a wild man with the range of products he's done.
Once they get the self folding system working I could see these all over the roof tops of the world.
I imagine an aptera-friendly version could attach to the underside of the hatch, and integrate with a variation of the camping tent. And of course fold out like wings when parked (nose to the south, ideally).
I would buy this for my car if there were a trailer hitch mount option. I have a 2019 IONIQ, very aerodynamic car and I get zero range degradation from having cargo in the aero "shadow" of the car. This unit would give me near 40miles on my car daily!! 5.2mi/kwh average
Just a few rule of thumb numbers: The power density from sun light at noon, sea level, on a clear day, is ~1000W per square meter. If they put 2 square meters of panel on top of the car and get 20% efficiency (a good number for Si cells), that's 400W electricity. For a good 5 hours of sun shine (sun light is not always hitting the panel vertically), you get 2kwh energy. The idea is good but the limit of some of those numbers are difficult to overcome.
Two square meters? The unfolding panels shown on their RUclips channel appear to be around 20 square meters.
LFP battery is a good choice for this unit
For Aptera this doesn't seem worthwhile unless it can be used to augment the built-in as you suggested. Especially at $3K cost. For cars like the M3, that range loss factor is going to be make or break I think. at 10% range loss you'd basically break even and that assumes you can sit the car in full sun all day. And the M3 is more efficient than most EV's on the road.
10% assumed the model 3 already had a roof rack. if getting a roof rack for this product they both add drag and could combine for ~15%
Sounds like his product would be good for other ev's not Aptera. Aptera already will have full solar till they start to make special models. 400 miles of range is insane and clearly won't need his product. Sounds great for larger evs though :).
If you put that box on an Aptera, aren't you going to be shading the Aptera's own solar panels?
I can't imagine trying to use it on the Aptera.
"Delivery in 2025. Fully refundable deposit of $100."
Where have I heard this before?
🤣🤣
@Okurka All eyes will definitely be on the PI2. They better have all the solar mounted/functional, doors and rear hatch nicely fitting/latching with proper struts, nicely fitted glass, wipers, wrap it, and be able to actually go drive the thing 400 miles at a reasonable speed with some "real reviewers" coming back with ""Hey, this thing is pretty sweet". Regen, charging times, HVAC that actually works, not sounding like a stagecoach over the bumps, the sub not resonating the shell like a garbage can, a 35' turning circle, etc..
5 years of "Amazing" and Junior's 1,000 "Cool"s "tell everyone what to think" BS needs to give way to this thing speaking for itself like a real product.
Has been entertaining, but let's get serious now.
Has the wait been worth it?
This video shows aptera in abu dhabi, on the screen you can see output of solar in watts being shown, 10watts in shade, and during the drive you can make out some figures,
ruclips.net/video/8a2wVOuGWbY/видео.html
Lets see some data from the display when car is in the sun, why has this never been shown in detail, it would see that since its a solar car and the display shows the watts and miles gained from solar, why not actually do a video showing us what it actually makes on a sunny day.
needs to be wayyyyyyyy cheaper
Sorry, but this is Idiocracy.. It doesn’t take ingenuity to come up with solar panels that fold out on your roof racks.
I think it’s Basically, like the homer Simpson car
We all have opinions. I think that productizing it in an easy to use form and selling at a reasonable price is quite an achievement.
You open it up on you car roof, unfold it, and you have 1200 watts of panels adding some charge to your car when it is parked on the sun. It looks like a great product.
Not sure what the big deal is here - doesn't seem particularly innovative....
What a stupid idea. That will not charge an EV enough to do much.