Thank you to everyone for such positive comments. I'm thrilled at the level of interest and debate this video has sparked across the web. I'd like also to say thanks and full credits to Moy who helped to define this possibility for the use of these fascinating objects. Also check out ChertineP's video Knitting with a Roman Dodecahedron
Hi Martin, I'm currently working for a London-based production company, and would love to speak to you about Roman dodecahedrons and your experiment. Is there an email address I might contact you on?
Making them in metal, presumably people who have these would sit and knit gloves on an industrial scale. Which would make a lot of sense for a barracks in a cold climate. Britain and Germany and other places they associated with (roman-celtic areas) are typically quite cold and wet compared to Italy and Rome. Didn't people get buried with them sometimes? You could easy imagine that people who did this as a job, enjoyed sitting around with others knitting all day, like crochet, you probably chat with people while you're doing it, and its probably quite fun and satisfying to get a pile of gloves at the end of the day. Then they probably associated the object with their identity. Like a carpenters square or whatever. A fond work relic. My guess was arrow-making and a device to measure the upper-and lower limits of the diameter of a stick for standardized arrow heads but gloves makes more sense as it explains why theres always dead on 10 faces. Only question is the size differences, why they range from 1.5 to 4 inches in size but hands dont vary to the that degree. Unless the small ones are childrens...
Actually, if you used a hooked needle, like in crocheting, you could do it in a fraction of the time. It would be interesting to find out if hooked needles were found along with the thingy.
Additionally I've often heard that people think tubes are hard for crocheting, this would make that much easier and explain why there doesn't seem to be any thing for the palms.
It's likely that hooks were made of a less long lasting material. Wooden hooks are still common today. Hooks are easier to remake if they break and requires less precision than a complicated figure (so having a metal dodecahedron but a wooden hook would be sensible)
I like the idea of using them to make woven chains and rope. It utilizes the holes beautifully too as the item is drawn smaller and smaller through them.
@michaelrudolph7003 The ones without holes are usually icosahedrons - they have 20 slightly dished sides, each with 3 edges, and very small holes and patterns on each...
@@sillybollox2244that's to say the Egyptians didn't have iron because they took their tools home. They do work with wire. Broken things got melted. Are there residue tests on torcs to put a lean on this? My dusty memory says yes.
How brilliant is it that this experiment worked so well! But still, I think you're ignoring the most obvious use for the dodecahedrons, which was the production of stuffed octopus toys. But seriously, I can't imagine the time it must have taken you to come up with this as a possibility. Kudos.
People not knowing that they were found to have no indication of wear and tear on them, no use patterns, even yarn would rub the metal and show use patterns after time. So it is quite obvious they were never used to manufacture anything.
Actually, braiding gold wire for jewelry makes more sense. The holes opposite each other are the same, allowing a stick to pass through and hold the work in progress. That is why it was found with treasure and the knobs are shaped to hold the wire or yarn (for gloves) while working. The closed one has holes -for wire? Then later use it to hold a candle.
Cool! After seeing one for the first time I had wondered if they might have something to do with knitting or maybe net making. I never thought about using them to make gloves, but it makes perfect sense after seeing this video.
+ChertineP I just finishes watching your video which brought me here. Very cool! I was recommended a news article today about the dodecahedron and +TheMartinhallett your theory was mentioned as well as your video, +ChertineP
As a fiber arts person I intuitively sense that this indeed could be a way to weave glove fingers. A metal one would be used by higher classes and much like today, a "spool" type for others. Also, the used with wool and being able to wet-felt the wool would be handy.
Despite the different sized holes, the distance between all the pegs is exactly the same and thus you aren't making bigger and smaller openings for fingers, they are all going to be the same size, so in this case the holes of different sizes make no difference at all. So its unlikely this is correct, although maybe it is correct and there is an additional use for this that does involve the holes and it was used for multiple things. I think these were definitely multi use items.
totally agree! I've read about other whack theories, like a candle holder, or a flower stand, but this makes the most sense, being found in colder climates.
It especially makes sense because they vary so much in size and size of the holes. So, maybe you'd buy or have made the one that you or your family members needed based on their finger sizes. Hell, it just looks like an old fashioned knitting device and has the exact set of features you'd expect for it's specific function. I am 99% convinced that this is exactly what it was used for. It's at least by far the best theory I've seen.
This is a very convincing demonstration of the real pupose of the dodecahedron. The model did an excellent job of demonstating the glove. With some practice the quality of the gloves should improve. Thank you for posting this video.
it HASN'T been identified as a knitting tool. he just used it as one. i can buy a hairpick at the store and use it as a knitting board, but that's not what it's for. but because i knit, i can use any number of things (forks, combs, my fingers, a spaghetti spoon) to knit on. that doesn't mean that's what they ARE. and the VAST information on knitted items and their age is direct opposition to ANYTHING knitted being made in this era and location. the only person saying it's a knitting tool is this guy, and i for one think he's totally wrong. can he knit on it? sure. i can also use an old plug from a broken lamp as a lucet if i wanted to. but that doesn't mean it's a lucet. it's a really neat thing to try, and it makes a really neat item to do your icord on if you want to have a conversation piece, but i absolutely 100% do not believe that is the actual intended use of these items.
***** Hi melly! i don't knit or crochet, i'm interested as to your thinking on why this is not a template? Just curious as i'm ignorant :) Thanks! steph
tony longbow please see the long and involved discussion above, starting with the comment from Tracy Isaacson. many many reason. not the least of which is there's no knitting from that time period, and it makes a really crappy finished product if it's gloves. it's an interesting re-purposing, and probably really nifty and fun, as a thing to do with thething, but use as a knitting tool? nope. not buying it.
***** I don't understand why you think this makes a really crappy finished product. Is it because there are large gaps where the air could get through to the fingers? Wouldn't that be a function of the thickness of the yarn? If one were to use a thick, sturdy yarn wouldn't that problem go away? I have knit glove fingers using 4 needles, slipping out all the time, and I think using a spool device would be a great improvement and require less skill by the user. Is the product crappy compared to modern knitting? Shouldn't you be comparing it to what they had at the time, i.e. mittens? Also look at this map of where the dodecahedra have been found: www.romandodecahedron.com/public/data/image/map-europe.jpg It looks like the places are all 1) under Roman control and 2) cold. No woolen gloves required in Spain, Italy, etc.
I thought it looked like something my Grandma might have had in her knitting box.She had some gizmos that made stuff that had blunt spikes.Seems reasonable.
Do you think you could knit with a fine wire and possibly make chain mail gloves? That would explain why these seem to be found near other military artifacts.
The holes don't change the finger size, that is determined by the distance between the pegs, which is all the same, so the glove idea doesn't even really make any sense with different sized holes.
Avete preso in considerazione l'ipotesi che fossero solo guanti a tre dita per tirare con l'arco??Did you consider the hypothesis that they were just three-fingered gloves for archery?
It's a jig and draw system for making wire jewellery of exactly the sort seen across classical and medieval Europe. They call it "viking knit" today, but it originated in the classical world rather than early medieval.
Since they were often found in coin caches..early coin sorter? Shake and place down on smallest hole first, shake again and place down on next largest, etc. Some modern coin sorters are made of stacked trays that have 5 sides. Must be a reason why 5 sides is easier to handle.
They are very likely to be related to coins if we consider a very important aspect - the circumstances where they were found: always in close vicinity of large stashes of coins.
Roman coins are a lot larger than those holes.I know because i am a Metal detectorist from the UK.I have found thousands of Roman coins.We also have won of these in our museum in Stevenage Hertfordshire.
Coins were stamped by hand. They were not very uniform in shape or thickness and much larger than the holes in one of these. People actually used to snip or file coins down. Which is why they used a scale to sort and count coins.The weight is all that matters.
@@silvanigra If they are indeed often found with coin stashes what one can deduce is that they held a similarly high value. People tend to to hide their valuables, whatever they are, in one place. That doesn't mean they have any connection to each other.
From watching the video it seems clear that the item was not meant to be used as a knitting guide. Sure, you can use it, but just watching that process revealed it to be very slow and tedious, not what I would expect from an elegant hand tool from the age of skilled craftsmen. I can use a old desktop computer as a doorstop, but that doesn't make it a doorstop.
Whilst I absolutely love this idea, as a knitter it seems worth pointing out that the size of the holes cannot possibly correlate with the production of differing finger sizes - the size of the hole makes no difference to the gauge which will be got from the size of the little nobs - these are essentially your needles. You could pull a large finger through a small hole or a small finger through a large hole, the construction would not change.
If this is true and that is what these were used for, and if my memories of the history of costume Served me properly then this would be a very significant overthrow of what is currently known regarding the development of modern woven vs knitted textiles. It would seem to put the date for the first use of true knitting back roughly a millennia further than is currently believed... (That's right, boys and girls, knittted clothing did not appear until between the 11th and 14th centuries AD!!!) For what my opinion is worth, I applaud you! You are almost certainly in my opinion correct. That is undoubtedly the intended use for those particular artifacts; with one fairly minor detail needing reworked - they were used to make socks not gloves. Some scraps of garments resembling modern toe-socks have been found using just that sort of knitted stitch in sites as early as the 3rd or 4th AD and have been something of an unexplainable phenomena in the history of costume as they predated the known origin of modern knitting, invention of the knitting needles and the knit and purl stitch by some 800 years or more. It Is remarkable to me and does you great credit that it was the artifact itself which suggested the technique and the intended to garment to you, especially if you had no knowledge of either the history of knitting or the until now unexplainable toe-socks! Remarkable, truly remarkable.
well done! And no hard and fast rules that these oddities weren’t used for a variety of tasks, including several we likely will never uncover. As a knitter, crocheter and weaver, and student of history, I have to say that whether this technique arose much later elsewhere does not preclude it being in use in Rome earlier. It could easily have died out, since these would be technically difficult to create, whereas spindles, forks, etc can easily be carved from wood. I really love experimental archaeology!
To me, this seems the most obvious solution, that they were used for making gloves. You would NEED them, and it works for that purpose. You couldn’t nip down to the local store and get them🤷♀️. Every soldier would know how to work them, and would be highly valued, as they were imperative, so we see them buried with coins to hide. There’s not records in the Roman writings because it was such a common item, why mention them?
@@stoverboothose are gloves ? What a joke.. what to protect from working on stone ? You think that pathetically loosely wound thing is keep person warm ??? Pffffft
How do the different-sized holes control the size of the fingers in the glove? I would think that would be a function of the pegs/knobs except they appear equidistant.
The holes don't control the size of the fingers. If there is a function then they are for indicating which finger you are knitting for on the glove. It is very easy to get lost otherwise.
The Gallic-Roman dod was created for the Roman troop arm merchants (Negotiatores) to engage in trade with Roman military. It was used for the measurement, procurement and maintenance of the the (Belgica/Gallic/Britannia/Germania Superior/Inferior) Auxiliary troop's polearm weapon shafts (spears/javelins mainly). It was used to measure the diameter of the weapon shafts - the taper of the shaft just outside/away from the joint near the weapon head sockets, and most importantly, the taper of the wood shaft that resides inside the head socket of the weapon heads. If more detailed info is needed, please let me know.
@@esci85 I'm the source. It's a researched opinion based on my research. On many dods, the largest opposing openings can be used to remove the socketed heads. Some polearms have 2 tapers (inside the socket and just outside the socket). In addition, the dods also measure the largest diameter of the shaft. The Auxiliary troops were allowed to use their own weapons (1st when some were utilized as Foederati...and later when they became full auxiliary troops). The Gaul area tribes were numerous, not cohesive, and didn't have standardized weapons across their lands. The Romans standardized everything. You can't efficiently supply an army when the product comes in all sizes and shapes - and weights are different; javelins and spears perform differently if they are not the same size and weight. Allowing them to utilize their own weapons per unit, meant supplying different specs for different units. The merchants created a key so as to allow the specs to be efficiently procured/standardized in different areas. In the East and South, the the weapons were mass produced. The NW frontier didn't began the mass production until the coinage was so debased, they couldn't afford local production (late 3rd century). Look me up on Quora for more info.
@@RichardAllday so you are interestet in history. and that makes your theory a fact. its a theory. could probably be. but also couldn't. you state it as it is a fact. do you have any written document from this age, which backs that up? or an image? you know how science works?
Yes, I know how science works. If you are acclimated to archaeology, you will know that inferences, deductions/inductions are made based on excavations and history. Smoking guns do not always exist. Prove it wrong in any sense. @@esci85
This is exactly what they are. The holes were capped with wax with various symbols on them. The different sized gaps produce different odds of landing facing up or down. The balls prevent the wax faces from being damaged when rolled. It was a game that existed before rome in germanic areas.
interesting theory ... but that's an insane amount of work compared to just cutting out a set of gloves from some animal skin and sewing it - and i kinda feel like wool while possibly warmer; is more likely to be impractical for any work activities as it would degrade too fast; + the construction of the dodecahedron itself seems rather intricate and complex for the time period; making it a probably expensive tool - I'm not convinced this was their purpose; the alternative methods seem both more practical and easier to use.
HiveWasp Maybe to make gloves for under the armor? Fat leather gloves wouldn’t be so practical. Even now, for skiing and such, we wear thinner gloves under our heavy gloves.🤷♀️
Kenneth Hess Kenneth Hess 1 second ago Agree. Using this for knitting is ridiculous. Way too much effort and time. Ancient Romans would have invented a much easier to knit. They were much smarter that.
Brilliant insight into a bygone time. You can imagine a family sat in front of a fire in late autumn making these at night and talking about what they will barter/trade for them. I bet they make more durable gloves than we have now-a-days. Thank you for taking the time and sharing the video. My very best to you and yours.
I know this may sound very sexist, but I note that a gentleman figured this out and it is unusual for men to knit and crochet - although my husband does! This was a keen and insightful problem solving exercise. Your name should go into a history book as the discoverer of the purpose of the Roman dodecahedron. Congratulations!
It is not unusual at all. Check the history of knitting -- it was the men who ran the knitting guilds in old days, and they often supported their families by knitting. When the industrial revolution brought the knitting machines, many of the men were put out of business, and handcrafted garments became the pastime of women.
BelmontRose1 men actually are the creators of knitting and especially crochet...which was basically what salons did all the time...macrame appears to be a woman created one still.
Genius! In skilled hands it would take no time at all to make gloves. Simple tool, simple solution. Even if it truly want used for this, it's still kick ass :)
Cool idea, but wasn't there wax residue found on them? And why the need for so many holes when there's only 10 fingers? Weren't similar objects also found in Asia? So many questions tbh, it remains a mystery I guess.
Only one was found with some wax in it, this could easily have been a second repurposing as a candlestick. There is a piece of maybe vietnamese jewellery which uses a similar shaped gold bead.
The Asian ones were made of gold and it seems just a luxury item purely for display copied from the original Roman one. It seems unlikely to have an utilitarian use.
Tremendamente sensato. Tu experimento ha sido muy inspirado. Probablemente sea esta explicación doméstica y cotidiana la correcta, como una navaja de Ockham. Gracias, es un soplo de aire fresco ante tanta especulación sesuda. Tremendously sensible. Your experiment has been very inspired. Probably this domestic and daily explanation is the correct one, like a razor of Ockham. Thank you, it is a breath of fresh air before so many wise speculation.
Iba navegando a la búsqueda de los sólidos platónicos...y me encontré con esto..Lo saqué de aquí: www.mundomisterioso.net/2014/06/dodecaedro-romano-misterio-resuelto.html
I love this idea, but one thing bothers me. The diameter of the resulting knitted tube will be determined by the number of pins and the distance between them. The size of the hole that you pull it through will be pretty much irrelevant.
I just don’t buy it. Nalbinding is much easier than this and doesn’t require any equipment more complicated or expensive than a bone needle. There is no evidence of knitting looms being used before 400 years ago. Nice idea but it just doesn’t ring true.
No, if they were just used to knit gloves, they would have been made of something cheaper than bronze. There are rings cast into the thing. Gloves don't need rings. It's expensive to cut the rings. What is the purpose of the rings? Solve that, and you solve the mystery.
Clever! It was probably the smartphone of it's day...." If you don't put that dodecahedron down I'm going to take it off you, bloody teenagers with your stupid gloves."
The same crochet technique could be used to make 5 strand rope out of leather strips and the finished leather rope gets fed down the hole and out the bottom. There would be a need for rope of various diameter from horse tack gear to constuction. As a kid we used to make rope using a similar technique. Using an empty thread spool we would drive small finishing nails around the hole on one end of the spool. Also using a crochet technique and needle you could make a decent rope and feed it down the hole and out the bottom. In Roman times, gloves were made out of leather which would be much more durable.
It is for tube knitting, ie making a rope from knitting threads. You start by making a thin rope in the small hole, then move it to a larger hole and add more threads, until you have knitted the rope of thendesired size, anywhere from a tiny rope to tie your clothes up to a large rope to haul goods.
The simplest answers are always probably the correct ones! I wondered if this device could also be used to make the actual yarn itself or twines, I was thinking the most likely people to use these would be soldiers to keep their hands (and with a different technique..) maybe their feet warm with socks.. ? Also could the device be used to make string for bows, arrows, and other general uses? I love your solution.
I saw this object and worked out it was a "knitting Nancy" or knitting loom too .. Probably used to make braided silk cords .. The different sized holes set the gauge of the knitted braid and keep it a consistent width.
You're both correct. It's a simple cordmaker and was likely found in every home in the ancient world, and is now in the yarn aisle at craft stores. It's useless for making gloves, since each could make just one size--with difficulty. I've posted about this before, but the guy keeps deleting it.
I just figured out (before I saw your video) that the dodecahedron could work as a French knitter (Knitting Nancy). But I didn't figure out that it could be used to make a glove. Congratulations!
It was a simple ancient hair tie (for hair extensions tie too). It needed to have this shape in faces so that it had beads at the ends. The beads do not hurt the scalp. In addition to giving more volume to the hairstyle, it served to secure the strands through different openings, perhaps also through wooden locks. Some dodecahedrons have been found with wax residue. Natural waxes were used as hair-setting.
My humble opinion about holes in the "cube/dice" is that opening area for the valuing the coins and calculate the weight of the coins, measuring, compare.
Love it! Also strange how people in the comments are going 'we didn't find any knitted items in archaelogy so can't be true?' Umm...we have found hardly any Roman fabrics, maybe the odd scrap? Moths and insects love that stuff too much...leather can survive but everything else usually goes, so dunno why they think wool would be different? Hard enough to keep your woolens being munched by moths in the modern age, let alone some discarded item or grave good. So lack of surviving items doesn't mean this was 'impossible', it could mean that the artifacts didn't survive. And a lot of stuff was never written down. Now you might find mention of wool or knitting in manifests, or descriptions of the day...I bet hardly anyone has looked, though. And no, amateur archaelogists, Google doesn't count.
Yes, fabric generally doesn't survive well. However, paintings and carvings often fare better and we don't see people wearing knitted gloves in Roman art-work.
Not for knitting. But gloves to hold swords, made with sinews., were very important. This device was priceless for them to make and sell gloves and why it is found with treasure. Some of them are found with wax inside for this purpose. Nice job.
Probably, the decahedron was used as a kind of an iron to flatten stripes. Stripes are rolled around the decahedron and between balls (up to 10 stripes in different directions). In case of the icosahedron, 6 stripes are possible (4 stripes for the octahedron and only 3 for the cube). Holes had no big sence.
I like this theory, but I'm curious...has anyone ever proposed that they might be a type of hot curler for styling hair? From looking at them, I can imagine a few ways this could have worked, and the holes possibly made for inserting dowels to avoid burning the hands? Extant art of the period examples meticulously styled and curled "do's" on men and women alike. Just a thought, but if you disagree, please be nice about it :)
@@cpeterseb3161 yes,,,, to make perfect lines, at long distance. But we must have more informations about htis. wehre did thyy were found, if they were together or found just isolated items, etc..
@pedro silva slva They have been found in the graves of women...this would seem to strengthen my hair-curler theory, but saying women were more likely than men to be styling hair in those times would be suppositious(of me, anyhow). Also, examples have been found with wax residue, and it is known that wax has historically been used to set hair. Also, all extant examples are made from heat-conductive materials(metal and stone)...an object as simple as this could easily have been constructed of wood, clay, or other inexpensive materials(and they may well have been, but without extant examples). That they are apparently all heat-conductive might be significant.
Sir, this is so much easier if you use the tool designed to pick the stitches off the pins - a bent=needle needle or a small crochet hook. Go to your local Michael's and ask a person there who is a knitter.
Interesting. A few questions, if anyone knows: 1) How did the different-sized holes play a role? The sides appear uniform, and the stitch size would be regulated by the distances between the corner knobs. 2) On the Roman forms, there are varying-sized rings around the holes - could that have been some kind of guide line?
***** Hello, while I'm keen not to defend this possible use too strongly, if you do use this object to make a glove, the holes are really needed to accommodate the fingers as they grow. So, if you are going to have to have the holes there then why not make them different sizes like fingers are? In fact the different sizes are somewhat useful because they actually remind you which finger you're doing and this is important because you need to knit each one a different length.
the other thing is the gauge is far too loose for effective gloves, and there have been ZERO knitted items from there era. many nalbinding-made items have been found though...if there were this many of these things, then knitted items should be much more prevalent. there should be SOME knitted items from this era found. there are none. there aren't even knitted socks. zero. why? if knitting (of any kind) was so prevalent that they created nifty fun fancy tools to do it, why are there no finished products historically?
also, there are quite a few OTHER theories that make a heck of a lot more sense. like, i don't know, as a rangefinder for artillery. (look that one up. it's actually pretty awesome.) that's not proven of course, but it at least makes SENSE. using these things as spool knitters for gloves is really just a bit of fun silliness. there is absolutely no reason to give this theory any validity. is it fun? yes. but then so is making cord on an old fork. as i said before, just because you figured out that you can use something for a purpose doesn't mean it was made for that purpose, especially so when if used for that purpose it makes such a piss-poor product. (i mean, honestly, just look at it. those are really terrible gloves for actual use as functional gloves, no matter how fun they were to make with your mystery doodad.) again, i don't doubt it was fun. it's just not feasible as the purpose, IMO.
I am curious, do you think this could have been used to knit more than just wool? Maybe perhaps leather or some other types of fabric? It is amazing to say the least that these things even exist, the fact there are various sized holes definitely points to something to do with fingers. I am so happy you created this video! I have been discussing dodecahedrons with my fellow students in class since the beginning of the week.
I don't know that that correct observation proves it had NOTHING to do with knitting. Maybe it had this use and maybe it didn't, but maybe the holes were for another process? But you can't rule knitting out altogether because of this.
It looks like a pretty simple tool for drawing arrows.. like drawing wire progressively smaller and more strait.. Just my 2 cents. looks to me like the holes are different sizes and would be ideal for drawing willow wood?
Ya but dozens of the ones that have been found are around one inch big with holes in the millimeter sizes that no fingers would fit. So how's that supposed to work?
@@antagonizerr LOL, yes, those ones were used for weaving/knitting metal ropes and chains. I have a video about it on my channel under "dodecahedron". There is no other logical/practical use for the 12 sided device with 5 round pegs around each hole. Use your logic!!
@@Dr.Yalex.How's this for using logic; There is literally no signs of wear on ANY of the dodecahedrons that were found. Nothing. As if they weren't even used at all. Rope would wear...wool would wear...any use would wear but nothing. Almost as if they were a display item that wasn't used. Plus, and this is the important part; BRONZE WASN'T CHEAP and the craftsmanship that went into them would have cost a fortune. Equivalent to today, it'd be the same as buying a Ferrari. Why on earth would they spend that much on something for knitting that you could just as easily carve out of wood? It makes no sense.
Your answer is well considered, and I love it. I was thinking perhaps the roman dodecahedron was used for making ropes, but this makes so much more sense. I do wonder about those solid icosahedrons in the collection tho.
@soylentgreen6082I found your question interesting, so what were the icosahedrons used for? I have two videos on RUclips, in the second, PART II, I summarize the first one, and I start from the thesis that the dodecahedron and the icosahedron had similar functions. It is not easy to explain it, just in case you are interested I am sending you the link: ruclips.net/video/Fj6CaGsxtRQ/видео.htmlsi=hkNJgEiGgs70lZ07
@soylentgreen6082. I forgot to tell you that it is in Spanish, but you can, through settings, put the video in automatic translation, and subtitled in English.
One hypothesis is the manufacture of gloves because of the cold. But why have they not been found in other cold areas of the Empire: Italian Alps, Romanian Carpathians (Dacia), Cantabrian mountain range (Lugo, Astorga and León), Iberian Pyrenees, Turkish Pontic Mountains, etc. The areas where they have been found coincide exactly with areas of Celtic influence: See on youtube "History of the Celtic Languages Part 2. P / Q hypothesis. In addition to other refutations, I will point out that with the price of one bronze one could pay for about 15 or 20 wooden ones and about 30 baked clay ones, with the same function. Why make them out of bronze?
Would you know what might be produced using a roman icosahedron? I’m convinced these were used to make gloves but there is also aversion with out holes. Would it produce fingers outwards?
Did they use it for making chain mail gloves or other attire? Or to pull wire into different gauges? Interesting for sure. I’m feeling like some kind of measuring tool that is within itself a complete set of like for like conversion, like a scale device used for telling distance or when doing plans for manufacturing a product. Architects’ device? Making scale comparisons? But really the glove thing seems strange you can do that with it if that’s not what it’s for? If you decided to make potholders instead of gloves would we think it was a potholder maker? Very interesting
Very convincing theory! I live near to where one of the few existing (or ever created?) was found, beneath the foundations of an old church, when it was dug in the 12th Century AD and one of the notible features of the _Roman Dodecahedron_ (apart from its 'nodules') is that each 'hole' is of a different size. The Dodecahedron varied in size from about an inch, up to about 4 inches diameter
Hello from 2021! Seeing that thing for the first time idk how many years ago, my first thought was textiles of some sort. People keep saying, in other places, that it's ridiculous for this to be made (sometimes in silver or gold) 'just' to use on clothes. What they forget is that your clothing (before fast fashion became the word in fashion) was /expensive/ to make. Bronze examples vs. gold examples are the same comparison that can be made in the example of cotton vs. silk thread for sewing invisible seams, or for making lace. Why would they be included in grave goods? Why are spindles, and so many other textile-related objects also found in grave goods?
The weaving thing is ok, but does not account for the different sized holes on each plane. But now that I think of it, the holes could be gauges for fingers and toes.
These objects very well could have been used for knitting...I hadn't realized the holes are three different sizes. Is that true for all of the objects that have been found? My personal belief is that these objects were used in some way as a gauge for rope or string, or perhaps used as spacers for tile projects like mosaics. It's really strange that there are no contemporary references describing these objects.
Nice ! I think this is a side-effect but not the actual main usage - in my opinion. I need to get some inspiration to put my solution to paper, although I think with few original ones I know a way to confirm my proof :) Knowing myself takes probably year to write a paper on it... Now I need to order a copy from somewhere :) Oh, they are very important indeed, not decoration or such. And very usable in more than one profession. Hint: Fi...
Once someone else had spotted that the holes were probably for fingers, not that long - an hour maybe. But I had to learn French knitting first by watching RUclips videos.
Now it's a question of comparing the results from this experiment (particularly after some practice) to extant textile finds. Do you have a blog post that covers more things like how you thought of it, how you cast on & technique, etc.?
Hello Mildred, I was really surprised at the level of interest in this video. I think I need to do some more work on the technique, but I have a friend who has volunteered her (really amazing) crocheting skills and I'll try to post something in a few weeks perhaps. A blog is a good idea thank you. I'll see how easy it is to put one up.
There's enough cross over between history geeks and knitting geeks (even before you get into the re-enactment groups) that your video is going to get a bit of notice. :) I'm fascinated, and I know I'm not alone.
You said it took several hours. Do you think this method saved time over some other method that could have been available to anyone at that time? Did you end up with a better product? Also how much of an effect did the hole sizes have on the final size of the fingers?
@@esci85 I'd expect that if someone hands me a simple time or labour saving device, that after a 3 hour trial, I'd be able to notice the benefits. A drill over a screwdriver, a hatchet over a hand axe, a fishing rod over a spear, or a shovel over a stick and hand. We should expect that the barrier to entry should be lowered, or the ability of the user should be extended significantly.
@@hjf3022 well then your expectations are beyond reality :) or how long does it you to make boards from a tree with an axe? its pretty simple, isnt it? but i bet my arse off, that a skilled woodworker, who does that for a living, does 5 times faster than you. do you really wanna tell me, that a simple tool must be simple to master? but yet they are tools. you never had a tool in your hand, didnt you?
@@esci85 your comparison is irrelevant. We aren't and cant compare the maker of this video's skill to a skilled ancient Roman. The efficacy of the tool will be measured by the benefit to the person using it versus using an alternative tool. It would take me a very long time to make board from a tree with an axe, yes. But if you handed me a better tool for the job, you'd expect it to take me a shorter amount of time, or that I'd be able to do a better job of it compared to not using the tool, else people would not see utility in adopting the tool. You'd expect this would apply to me as to a carpenter. All humans use tools, even toddler with a spoon is using a tool, if you don't understand the purpose of a tool, then it is you who is the tool.
@@hjf3022 okay. then i hand you for your first time in your life a chainsaw. we´ll see if you get it startet untill the woodworker splited the tree and if you end up in a hospital :) your theory is BS. as further the tool is evolved, the harder it is to master. what do you think why there are now 20 Sciences applied in printing a newspaper when a clay tablet does the job? can you program a cnc mill? these are the newest tools, so they should be easy to work with, along your theory. if you put the stick out of your arse and instead of arguing search for a second video, from different persons who done it more than one time, or read the comments to look for opinions, not for BSing other theories by pseudoeducated half-thoughts without spending just a split second to view it from different perspectives, we all would win.
Thank you to everyone for such positive comments. I'm thrilled at the level of interest and debate this video has sparked across the web. I'd like also to say thanks and full credits to Moy who helped to define this possibility for the use of these fascinating objects.
Also check out ChertineP's video Knitting with a Roman Dodecahedron
I am so proud of you. I have thought the same thing but didn't do anything about it!
@@MrPublicPain I'm in a bunker with three crocheters, they got it pretty quickly. Where can I get one?
Hi Martin, I'm currently working for a London-based production company, and would love to speak to you about Roman dodecahedrons and your experiment. Is there an email address I might contact you on?
You need a crochet hook, instead of the needle.
Making them in metal, presumably people who have these would sit and knit gloves on an industrial scale. Which would make a lot of sense for a barracks in a cold climate. Britain and Germany and other places they associated with (roman-celtic areas) are typically quite cold and wet compared to Italy and Rome.
Didn't people get buried with them sometimes? You could easy imagine that people who did this as a job, enjoyed sitting around with others knitting all day, like crochet, you probably chat with people while you're doing it, and its probably quite fun and satisfying to get a pile of gloves at the end of the day. Then they probably associated the object with their identity. Like a carpenters square or whatever. A fond work relic.
My guess was arrow-making and a device to measure the upper-and lower limits of the diameter of a stick for standardized arrow heads but gloves makes more sense as it explains why theres always dead on 10 faces.
Only question is the size differences, why they range from 1.5 to 4 inches in size but hands dont vary to the that degree. Unless the small ones are childrens...
Actually, if you used a hooked needle, like in crocheting, you could do it in a fraction of the time. It would be interesting to find out if hooked needles were found along with the thingy.
Additionally I've often heard that people think tubes are hard for crocheting, this would make that much easier and explain why there doesn't seem to be any thing for the palms.
a staff was found with one of them... maybe it's missing the hook :P
It's likely that hooks were made of a less long lasting material. Wooden hooks are still common today. Hooks are easier to remake if they break and requires less precision than a complicated figure (so having a metal dodecahedron but a wooden hook would be sensible)
If they were wooden they’d rot away before getting near 2,000 yrs old. Bone or bronze would be likely though.
Maybe they have been knitting condoms? 😮
I like the idea of using them to make woven chains and rope. It utilizes the holes beautifully too as the item is drawn smaller and smaller through them.
They don't all have holes though.
They aren't found with wear or traces of precious metals consistent with having knit wire tubes pulled through them.
@michaelrudolph7003 The ones without holes are usually icosahedrons - they have 20 slightly dished sides, each with 3 edges, and very small holes and patterns on each...
@@sillybollox2244that's to say the Egyptians didn't have iron because they took their tools home. They do work with wire. Broken things got melted.
Are there residue tests on torcs to put a lean on this? My dusty memory says yes.
@lainecolley1414 What do Egyptians and iron have to do with the use of roman bronze dodecahedra? I don't understand your comment.
How brilliant is it that this experiment worked so well! But still, I think you're ignoring the most obvious use for the dodecahedrons, which was the production of stuffed octopus toys. But seriously, I can't imagine the time it must have taken you to come up with this as a possibility. Kudos.
I want a pair...in blue please.
How can it be a stuffed octopus toy with only five fingers?
@oforbit7588 oh ho, someone didn't pay attention... 5 + 5 is..? and a Dodecahedron is a three-dimensional shape having twelve plane faces
Some of the dodecahedron found have extremely small holes and others have no holes at all.
People not knowing that they were found to have no indication of wear and tear on them, no use patterns, even yarn would rub the metal and show use patterns after time. So it is quite obvious they were never used to manufacture anything.
They could be incompletes.
Actually, braiding gold wire for jewelry makes more sense. The holes opposite each other are the same, allowing a stick to pass through and hold the work in progress. That is why it was found with treasure and the knobs are shaped to hold the wire or yarn (for gloves) while working. The closed one has holes -for wire? Then later use it to hold a candle.
A great piece of experimental archeology.
Cool! After seeing one for the first time I had wondered if they might have something to do with knitting or maybe net making. I never thought about using them to make gloves, but it makes perfect sense after seeing this video.
Well, I have posted a video of my glove fingers, such as they are. You can see it at Knitting with a Roman Dodecahedron
Looks really good if you use the right kind of wool and also if done by someone who knows what they're doing :)
+ChertineP I just finishes watching your video which brought me here. Very cool! I was recommended a news article today about the dodecahedron and +TheMartinhallett your theory was mentioned as well as your video, +ChertineP
Cbotable could you post a link?
@@ChertineP I found your video in this link getpocket.com/explore/item/the-mysterious-bronze-objects-that-have-baffled-archaeologists-for-centuries?
@@ChertineP oh, sorry. I thought I did.
getpocket.com/explore/item/the-mysterious-bronze-objects-that-have-baffled-archaeologists-for-centuries
As a fiber arts person I intuitively sense that this indeed could be a way to weave glove fingers. A metal one would be used by higher classes and much like today, a "spool" type for others. Also, the used with wool and being able to wet-felt the wool would be handy.
Despite the different sized holes, the distance between all the pegs is exactly the same and thus you aren't making bigger and smaller openings for fingers, they are all going to be the same size, so in this case the holes of different sizes make no difference at all. So its unlikely this is correct, although maybe it is correct and there is an additional use for this that does involve the holes and it was used for multiple things. I think these were definitely multi use items.
totally agree! I've read about other whack theories, like a candle holder, or a flower stand, but this makes the most sense, being found in colder climates.
It especially makes sense because they vary so much in size and size of the holes. So, maybe you'd buy or have made the one that you or your family members needed based on their finger sizes. Hell, it just looks like an old fashioned knitting device and has the exact set of features you'd expect for it's specific function. I am 99% convinced that this is exactly what it was used for. It's at least by far the best theory I've seen.
It's "wack", as in "out of wack", not "whack".
This is a very convincing demonstration of the real pupose of the dodecahedron. The model did an excellent job of demonstating the glove. With some practice the quality of the gloves should improve. Thank you for posting this video.
LOL!
Now search videos of people juggling chainsaws, you'll be convinced the tool was developed to be juggled.
@@frontenac5083 so whats your indicated purpose?
you cant come up with one?
learn how science works!
Brilliant deduction! It takes a knitter to recognize this as a knitting tool. I am so excited! Congratulations!
What up, my knitta?
it HASN'T been identified as a knitting tool. he just used it as one. i can buy a hairpick at the store and use it as a knitting board, but that's not what it's for. but because i knit, i can use any number of things (forks, combs, my fingers, a spaghetti spoon) to knit on. that doesn't mean that's what they ARE. and the VAST information on knitted items and their age is direct opposition to ANYTHING knitted being made in this era and location. the only person saying it's a knitting tool is this guy, and i for one think he's totally wrong. can he knit on it? sure. i can also use an old plug from a broken lamp as a lucet if i wanted to. but that doesn't mean it's a lucet. it's a really neat thing to try, and it makes a really neat item to do your icord on if you want to have a conversation piece, but i absolutely 100% do not believe that is the actual intended use of these items.
***** Hi melly! i don't knit or crochet, i'm interested as to your thinking on why this is not a template? Just curious as i'm ignorant :) Thanks! steph
tony longbow please see the long and involved discussion above, starting with the comment from Tracy Isaacson. many many reason. not the least of which is there's no knitting from that time period, and it makes a really crappy finished product if it's gloves. it's an interesting re-purposing, and probably really nifty and fun, as a thing to do with thething, but use as a knitting tool? nope. not buying it.
*****
I don't understand why you think this makes a really crappy finished product. Is it because there are large gaps where the air could get through to the fingers? Wouldn't that be a function of the thickness of the yarn? If one were to use a thick, sturdy yarn wouldn't that problem go away? I have knit glove fingers using 4 needles, slipping out all the time, and I think using a spool device would be a great improvement and require less skill by the user. Is the product crappy compared to modern knitting? Shouldn't you be comparing it to what they had at the time, i.e. mittens?
Also look at this map of where the dodecahedra have been found: www.romandodecahedron.com/public/data/image/map-europe.jpg
It looks like the places are all 1) under Roman control and 2) cold. No woolen gloves required in Spain, Italy, etc.
I was thinking along these lines before I saw your video. i think you have nailed it.
I thought it looked like something my Grandma might have had in her knitting box.She had some gizmos that made stuff that had blunt spikes.Seems reasonable.
Do you think you could knit with a fine wire and possibly make chain mail gloves? That would explain why these seem to be found near other military artifacts.
Wouldn't even have to be "chain mail," soldiers need protection from the elements as much as they need protection from blades! :D
The holes don't change the finger size, that is determined by the distance between the pegs, which is all the same, so the glove idea doesn't even really make any sense with different sized holes.
Avete preso in considerazione l'ipotesi che fossero solo guanti a tre dita per tirare con l'arco??Did you consider the hypothesis that they were just three-fingered gloves for archery?
It's a jig and draw system for making wire jewellery of exactly the sort seen across classical and medieval Europe. They call it "viking knit" today, but it originated in the classical world rather than early medieval.
Since they were often found in coin caches..early coin sorter? Shake and place down on smallest hole first, shake again and place down on next largest, etc. Some modern coin sorters are made of stacked trays that have 5 sides. Must be a reason why 5 sides is easier to handle.
Yep, either to sort or to check against being cheated - tax collectors had to be sure the coin is the right size and leave no margin for error.
They are very likely to be related to coins if we consider a very important aspect - the circumstances where they were found: always in close vicinity of large stashes of coins.
Roman coins are a lot larger than those holes.I know because i am a Metal detectorist from the UK.I have found thousands of Roman coins.We also have won of these in our museum in Stevenage Hertfordshire.
Coins were stamped by hand. They were not very uniform in shape or thickness and much larger than the holes in one of these. People actually used to snip or file coins down. Which is why they used a scale to sort and count coins.The weight is all that matters.
@@silvanigra If they are indeed often found with coin stashes what one can deduce is that they held a similarly high value. People tend to to hide their valuables, whatever they are, in one place. That doesn't mean they have any connection to each other.
Originally, knitting was a male dominated activity, including knitting guilds that specifically prohibited women. So, yes: men knit!
No it wasnt
From watching the video it seems clear that the item was not meant to be used as a knitting guide. Sure, you can use it, but just watching that process revealed it to be very slow and tedious, not what I would expect from an elegant hand tool from the age of skilled craftsmen.
I can use a old desktop computer as a doorstop, but that doesn't make it a doorstop.
Whilst I absolutely love this idea, as a knitter it seems worth pointing out that the size of the holes cannot possibly correlate with the production of differing finger sizes - the size of the hole makes no difference to the gauge which will be got from the size of the little nobs - these are essentially your needles. You could pull a large finger through a small hole or a small finger through a large hole, the construction would not change.
If this is true and that is what these were used for, and if my memories of the history of costume Served me properly then this would be a very significant overthrow of what is currently known regarding the development of modern woven vs knitted textiles. It would seem to put the date for the first use of true knitting back roughly a millennia further than is currently believed...
(That's right, boys and girls, knittted clothing did not appear until between the 11th and 14th centuries AD!!!)
For what my opinion is worth, I applaud you! You are almost certainly in my opinion correct. That is undoubtedly the intended use for those particular artifacts; with one fairly minor detail needing reworked - they were used to make socks not gloves.
Some scraps of garments resembling modern toe-socks have been found using just that sort of knitted stitch in sites as early as the 3rd or 4th AD and have been something of an unexplainable phenomena in the history of costume as they predated the known origin of modern knitting, invention of the knitting needles and the knit and purl stitch by some 800 years or more.
It Is remarkable to me and does you great credit that it was the artifact itself which suggested the technique and the intended to garment to you, especially if you had no knowledge of either the history of knitting or the until now unexplainable toe-socks!
Remarkable, truly remarkable.
Thank you for sharing this very interesting indeed!
why would they build iron thing of than instead of wood ? It would be less expensive ? Can a wooden object travel throught centuries undamaged ?
well done! And no hard and fast rules that these oddities weren’t used for a variety of tasks, including several we likely will never uncover. As a knitter, crocheter and weaver, and student of history, I have to say that whether this technique arose much later elsewhere does not preclude it being in use in Rome earlier. It could easily have died out, since these would be technically difficult to create, whereas spindles, forks, etc can easily be carved from wood. I really love experimental archaeology!
Awesome...this is the most likely use of them in the cold weather countries...great sleuthing props to the one who found this solution to the riddle.
To me, this seems the most obvious solution, that they were used for making gloves. You would NEED them, and it works for that purpose. You couldn’t nip down to the local store and get them🤷♀️. Every soldier would know how to work them, and would be highly valued, as they were imperative, so we see them buried with coins to hide. There’s not records in the Roman writings because it was such a common item, why mention them?
Maybe but finger warmers are kinda weirf
@@timohara7717 Gloves are weird? How so?
Pffffft
@timohara7717 they wouldnt keep anything warm. Guys an idiot
@@stoverboothose are gloves ? What a joke.. what to protect from working on stone ? You think that pathetically loosely wound thing is keep person warm ???
Pffffft
How do the different-sized holes control the size of the fingers in the glove? I would think that would be a function of the pegs/knobs except they appear equidistant.
The holes don't control the size of the fingers. If there is a function then they are for indicating which finger you are knitting for on the glove. It is very easy to get lost otherwise.
The Gallic-Roman dod was created for the Roman troop arm merchants (Negotiatores) to engage in trade with Roman military. It was used for the measurement, procurement and maintenance of the the (Belgica/Gallic/Britannia/Germania Superior/Inferior) Auxiliary troop's polearm weapon shafts (spears/javelins mainly). It was used to measure the diameter of the weapon shafts - the taper of the shaft just outside/away from the joint near the weapon head sockets, and most importantly, the taper of the wood shaft that resides inside the head socket of the weapon heads. If more detailed info is needed, please let me know.
Not, no more detail is needed, thank you very much.
source? why should it be that important to have 6 different taperings? and why should they be normed?
@@esci85 I'm the source. It's a researched opinion based on my research. On many dods, the largest opposing openings can be used to remove the socketed heads. Some polearms have 2 tapers (inside the socket and just outside the socket). In addition, the dods also measure the largest diameter of the shaft. The Auxiliary troops were allowed to use their own weapons (1st when some were utilized as Foederati...and later when they became full auxiliary troops). The Gaul area tribes were numerous, not cohesive, and didn't have standardized weapons across their lands. The Romans standardized everything. You can't efficiently supply an army when the product comes in all sizes and shapes - and weights are different; javelins and spears perform differently if they are not the same size and weight. Allowing them to utilize their own weapons per unit, meant supplying different specs for different units. The merchants created a key so as to allow the specs to be efficiently procured/standardized in different areas. In the East and South, the the weapons were mass produced. The NW frontier didn't began the mass production until the coinage was so debased, they couldn't afford local production (late 3rd century). Look me up on Quora for more info.
@@RichardAllday so you are interestet in history. and that makes your theory a fact.
its a theory. could probably be. but also couldn't. you state it as it is a fact.
do you have any written document from this age, which backs that up? or an image?
you know how science works?
Yes, I know how science works. If you are acclimated to archaeology, you will know that inferences, deductions/inductions are made based on excavations and history. Smoking guns do not always exist. Prove it wrong in any sense. @@esci85
Well done indeed, I thought they may have had woden parts that rotted and were used as a dice of sorts but this was eureka!
This is exactly what they are. The holes were capped with wax with various symbols on them. The different sized gaps produce different odds of landing facing up or down. The balls prevent the wax faces from being damaged when rolled.
It was a game that existed before rome in germanic areas.
interesting theory ... but that's an insane amount of work compared to just cutting out a set of gloves from some animal skin and sewing it - and i kinda feel like wool while possibly warmer; is more likely to be impractical for any work activities as it would degrade too fast; + the construction of the dodecahedron itself seems rather intricate and complex for the time period; making it a probably expensive tool - I'm not convinced this was their purpose; the alternative methods seem both more practical and easier to use.
HiveWasp Maybe to make gloves for under the armor? Fat leather gloves wouldn’t be so practical. Even now, for skiing and such, we wear thinner gloves under our heavy gloves.🤷♀️
Kenneth Hess
Kenneth Hess
1 second ago
Agree. Using this for knitting is ridiculous. Way too much effort and time. Ancient Romans would have invented a much easier to knit. They were much smarter that.
Brilliant insight into a bygone time. You can imagine a family sat in front of a fire in late autumn making these at night and talking about what they will barter/trade for them. I bet they make more durable gloves than we have now-a-days. Thank you for taking the time and sharing the video. My very best to you and yours.
I know this may sound very sexist, but I note that a gentleman figured this out and it is unusual for men to knit and crochet - although my husband does! This was a keen and insightful problem solving exercise. Your name should go into a history book as the discoverer of the purpose of the Roman dodecahedron. Congratulations!
It is not unusual at all. Check the history of knitting -- it was the men who ran the knitting guilds in old days, and they often supported their families by knitting. When the industrial revolution brought the knitting machines, many of the men were put out of business, and handcrafted garments became the pastime of women.
they were talking about modern men, it was funny. but thanks for the fun fact I didn't know that
BelmontRose1 men actually are the creators of knitting and especially crochet...which was basically what salons did all the time...macrame appears to be a woman created one still.
@BelmontRose1
How do you know he has discovered its original use.
Wouldn't a small crochet hook make it easier to open up the thread and pull the new thread through?
I wish I had the device to experiment with.
Genius! In skilled hands it would take no time at all to make gloves. Simple tool, simple solution. Even if it truly want used for this, it's still kick ass :)
This is pretty awesome. But wouldn't an F-5 or lower crochet hook be easier to use than a sewing needle for this?
Cool idea, but wasn't there wax residue found on them? And why the need for so many holes when there's only 10 fingers? Weren't similar objects also found in Asia? So many questions tbh, it remains a mystery I guess.
Only one was found with some wax in it, this could easily have been a second repurposing as a candlestick. There is a piece of maybe vietnamese jewellery which uses a similar shaped gold bead.
It's used to create mesh coin rolls that then have a wax seal in them.
The Asian ones were made of gold and it seems just a luxury item purely for display copied from the original Roman one. It seems unlikely to have an utilitarian use.
Tremendamente sensato. Tu experimento ha sido muy inspirado. Probablemente sea esta explicación doméstica y cotidiana la correcta, como una navaja de Ockham. Gracias, es un soplo de aire fresco ante tanta especulación sesuda.
Tremendously sensible. Your experiment has been very inspired. Probably this domestic and daily explanation is the correct one, like a razor of Ockham. Thank you, it is a breath of fresh air before so many wise speculation.
Iba navegando a la búsqueda de los sólidos platónicos...y me encontré con esto..Lo saqué de aquí: www.mundomisterioso.net/2014/06/dodecaedro-romano-misterio-resuelto.html
I love this idea, but one thing bothers me. The diameter of the resulting knitted tube will be determined by the number of pins and the distance between them. The size of the hole that you pull it through will be pretty much irrelevant.
I just don’t buy it. Nalbinding is much easier than this and doesn’t require any equipment more complicated or expensive than a bone needle. There is no evidence of knitting looms being used before 400 years ago. Nice idea but it just doesn’t ring true.
No, if they were just used to knit gloves, they would have been made of something cheaper than bronze. There are rings cast into the thing. Gloves don't need rings. It's expensive to cut the rings. What is the purpose of the rings? Solve that, and you solve the mystery.
Wow! I think I'll be buying my wife a dodecahedron before Winter sets in 😃
Clever! It was probably the smartphone of it's day...." If you don't put that dodecahedron down I'm going to take it off you, bloody teenagers with your stupid gloves."
The same crochet technique could be used to make 5 strand rope out of leather strips and the finished leather rope gets fed down the hole and out the bottom. There would be a need for rope of various diameter from horse tack gear to constuction. As a kid we used to make rope using a similar technique. Using an empty thread spool we would drive small finishing nails around the hole on one end of the spool. Also using a crochet technique and needle you could make a decent rope and feed it down the hole and out the bottom. In Roman times, gloves were made out of leather which would be much more durable.
It is for tube knitting, ie making a rope from knitting threads.
You start by making a thin rope in the small hole, then move it to a larger hole and add more threads, until you have knitted the rope of thendesired size, anywhere from a tiny rope to tie your clothes up to a large rope to haul goods.
good ..... but no hooks for this have ever been found near them ?
The simplest answers are always probably the correct ones! I wondered if this device could also be used to make the actual yarn itself or twines, I was thinking the most likely people to use these would be soldiers to keep their hands (and with a different technique..) maybe their feet warm with socks.. ? Also could the device be used to make string for bows, arrows, and other general uses? I love your solution.
Best theory I have seen so far. In my mind some kind of metal workers demo piece / maybe size gauge is the other favorite.
very ingenious, and Josie is a star!
Yeah, that works and but it just seems like it's super convoluted. And what about those end points? Why only use some of them?
my initial thought on seeing one was that it was for weaving, so I really like your application.
I saw this object and worked out it was a "knitting Nancy" or knitting loom too .. Probably used to make braided silk cords .. The different sized holes set the gauge of the knitted braid and keep it a consistent width.
You're both correct. It's a simple cordmaker and was likely found in every home in the ancient world, and is now in the yarn aisle at craft stores. It's useless for making gloves, since each could make just one size--with difficulty. I've posted about this before, but the guy keeps deleting it.
I just figured out (before I saw your video) that the dodecahedron could work as a French knitter (Knitting Nancy). But I didn't figure out that it could be used to make a glove. Congratulations!
It was a simple ancient hair tie (for hair extensions tie too).
It needed to have this shape in faces so that it had beads at the ends.
The beads do not hurt the scalp.
In addition to giving more volume to the hairstyle, it served to secure the strands through different openings, perhaps also through wooden locks.
Some dodecahedrons have been found with wax residue.
Natural waxes were used as hair-setting.
My humble opinion about holes in the "cube/dice" is that opening area for the valuing the coins and calculate the weight of the coins, measuring, compare.
coins usualy were weighted. to compare size you dont need such an extravagant tool.
Love it! Also strange how people in the comments are going 'we didn't find any knitted items in archaelogy so can't be true?' Umm...we have found hardly any Roman fabrics, maybe the odd scrap? Moths and insects love that stuff too much...leather can survive but everything else usually goes, so dunno why they think wool would be different? Hard enough to keep your woolens being munched by moths in the modern age, let alone some discarded item or grave good.
So lack of surviving items doesn't mean this was 'impossible', it could mean that the artifacts didn't survive. And a lot of stuff was never written down. Now you might find mention of wool or knitting in manifests, or descriptions of the day...I bet hardly anyone has looked, though. And no, amateur archaelogists, Google doesn't count.
Fabric decays in most conditions which is why it’s rare to find ancient cloth. Most of the time surviving ancient cloth is found in the desert.
Yes, fabric generally doesn't survive well. However, paintings and carvings often fare better and we don't see people wearing knitted gloves in Roman art-work.
Greetings. Have you thought about making these to order? I would be interested in purchasing one!!
You can get them here:
www.shapeways.com/search?q=roman+dodecahedron
I think JACANT is the maker of the one in the video.
Have they ever found any knitted gloves from that era?
Not for knitting. But gloves to hold swords, made with sinews., were very important. This device was priceless for them to make and sell gloves and why it is found with treasure. Some of them are found with wax inside for this purpose. Nice job.
"This device was priceless for them to make" BS Claim. they used Casting since 3200BC
This was a great practical demonstration.
But what about the ones with no holes?
like the triangle ones.
Probably, the decahedron was used as a kind of an iron to flatten stripes. Stripes are rolled around the decahedron and between balls (up to 10 stripes in different directions). In case of the icosahedron, 6 stripes are possible (4 stripes for the octahedron and only 3 for the cube).
Holes had no big sence.
It was used to make caps
So if you knitted with wire instead of wool would you get a armored glove?
Even if it is not what they were used for, you still might be on the right track.
Like this :)
Coud these have made some type of armour ? (like chain mail )
I like this theory, but I'm curious...has anyone ever proposed that they might be a type of hot curler for styling hair? From looking at them, I can imagine a few ways this could have worked, and the holes possibly made for inserting dowels to avoid burning the hands? Extant art of the period examples meticulously styled and curled "do's" on men and women alike. Just a thought, but if you disagree, please be nice about it :)
@@cpeterseb3161 yes,,,, to make perfect lines, at long distance.
But we must have more informations about htis. wehre did thyy were found, if they were together or found just isolated items, etc..
@pedro silva slva They have been found in the graves of women...this would seem to strengthen my hair-curler theory, but saying women were more likely than men to be styling hair in those times would be suppositious(of me, anyhow). Also, examples have been found with wax residue, and it is known that wax has historically been used to set hair. Also, all extant examples are made from heat-conductive materials(metal and stone)...an object as simple as this could easily have been constructed of wood, clay, or other inexpensive materials(and they may well have been, but without extant examples). That they are apparently all heat-conductive might be significant.
@@cpeterseb3161
Ah... a bit like Tinker Toys connector pieces. Makes sense...I like it.
Sir, this is so much easier if you use the tool designed to pick the stitches off the pins - a bent=needle needle or a small crochet hook. Go to your local Michael's and ask a person there who is a knitter.
A very interesting piece of experimental archaeology
Interesting maybe i have also wondered if the could be used for braiding rope
Interesting. A few questions, if anyone knows:
1) How did the different-sized holes play a role? The sides appear uniform, and the stitch size would be regulated by the distances between the corner knobs.
2) On the Roman forms, there are varying-sized rings around the holes - could that have been some kind of guide line?
exactly. regardless of the size HOLE, the number and distance of the PEGS is identical. it would produce tubes of identical diameter.
***** Hello, while I'm keen not to defend this possible use too strongly, if you do use this object to make a glove, the holes are really needed to accommodate the fingers as they grow. So, if you are going to have to have the holes there then why not make them different sizes like fingers are? In fact the different sizes are somewhat useful because they actually remind you which finger you're doing and this is important because you need to knit each one a different length.
the other thing is the gauge is far too loose for effective gloves, and there have been ZERO knitted items from there era. many nalbinding-made items have been found though...if there were this many of these things, then knitted items should be much more prevalent. there should be SOME knitted items from this era found. there are none. there aren't even knitted socks. zero. why? if knitting (of any kind) was so prevalent that they created nifty fun fancy tools to do it, why are there no finished products historically?
also, there are quite a few OTHER theories that make a heck of a lot more sense. like, i don't know, as a rangefinder for artillery. (look that one up. it's actually pretty awesome.) that's not proven of course, but it at least makes SENSE. using these things as spool knitters for gloves is really just a bit of fun silliness. there is absolutely no reason to give this theory any validity. is it fun? yes. but then so is making cord on an old fork. as i said before, just because you figured out that you can use something for a purpose doesn't mean it was made for that purpose, especially so when if used for that purpose it makes such a piss-poor product. (i mean, honestly, just look at it. those are really terrible gloves for actual use as functional gloves, no matter how fun they were to make with your mystery doodad.) again, i don't doubt it was fun. it's just not feasible as the purpose, IMO.
***** ancientpeoples.tumblr.com/post/26836003865/roman-childs-woollen-sock-roman-period-coptic
I am curious, do you think this could have been used to knit more than just wool? Maybe perhaps leather or some other types of fabric? It is amazing to say the least that these things even exist, the fact there are various sized holes definitely points to something to do with fingers. I am so happy you created this video! I have been discussing dodecahedrons with my fellow students in class since the beginning of the week.
Nothing to do with knitting - the spacing of the outer knobs determines the diameter of the knitted "tube", not the size of the hole it passes through
I don't know that that correct observation proves it had NOTHING to do with knitting. Maybe it had this use and maybe it didn't, but maybe the holes were for another process? But you can't rule knitting out altogether because of this.
For wire bradeing
Brilliant! I have been wondering what those were.
It looks like a pretty simple tool for drawing arrows.. like drawing wire progressively smaller and more strait..
Just my 2 cents. looks to me like the holes are different sizes and would be ideal for drawing willow wood?
That was my first thought as well, a Fletcher's tool.
This is the most BRILLIANT video on Dodecahedrons clearly showing what they were ALSWAYS used for !
Ya but dozens of the ones that have been found are around one inch big with holes in the millimeter sizes that no fingers would fit. So how's that supposed to work?
@@antagonizerr LOL, yes, those ones were used for weaving/knitting metal ropes and chains. I have a video about it on my channel under "dodecahedron". There is no other logical/practical use for the 12 sided device with 5 round pegs around each hole.
Use your logic!!
@@Dr.Yalex.How's this for using logic; There is literally no signs of wear on ANY of the dodecahedrons that were found. Nothing. As if they weren't even used at all. Rope would wear...wool would wear...any use would wear but nothing. Almost as if they were a display item that wasn't used. Plus, and this is the important part; BRONZE WASN'T CHEAP and the craftsmanship that went into them would have cost a fortune. Equivalent to today, it'd be the same as buying a Ferrari. Why on earth would they spend that much on something for knitting that you could just as easily carve out of wood? It makes no sense.
Your answer is well considered, and I love it. I was thinking perhaps the roman dodecahedron was used for making ropes, but this makes so much more sense. I do wonder about those solid icosahedrons in the collection tho.
@soylentgreen6082I found your question interesting, so what were the icosahedrons used for? I have two videos on RUclips, in the second, PART II, I summarize the first one, and I start from the thesis that the dodecahedron and the icosahedron had similar functions. It is not easy to explain it, just in case you are interested I am sending you the link:
ruclips.net/video/Fj6CaGsxtRQ/видео.htmlsi=hkNJgEiGgs70lZ07
@soylentgreen6082. I forgot to tell you that it is in Spanish, but you can, through settings, put the video in automatic translation, and subtitled in English.
Woah. I think you totally got this.
I thought it was for a table game.
I have also seen this used for wire weaving similar to woven Viking bracelets. There is a person on RUclips doing necklaces.
Well, that was fascinating!
Stunning mate! WOW!
One hypothesis is the manufacture of gloves because of the cold. But why have they not been found in other cold areas of the Empire: Italian Alps, Romanian Carpathians (Dacia), Cantabrian mountain range (Lugo, Astorga and León), Iberian Pyrenees, Turkish Pontic Mountains, etc.
The areas where they have been found coincide exactly with areas of Celtic influence: See on youtube "History of the Celtic Languages Part 2. P / Q hypothesis.
In addition to other refutations, I will point out that with the price of one bronze one could pay for about 15 or 20 wooden ones and about 30 baked clay ones, with the same function. Why make them out of bronze?
Would you know what might be produced using a roman icosahedron? I’m convinced these were used to make gloves but there is also aversion with out holes. Would it produce fingers outwards?
Did they use it for making chain mail gloves or other attire? Or to pull wire into different gauges? Interesting for sure. I’m feeling like some kind of measuring tool that is within itself a complete set of like for like conversion, like a scale device used for telling distance or when doing plans for manufacturing a product. Architects’ device? Making scale comparisons? But really the glove thing seems strange you can do that with it if that’s not what it’s for? If you decided to make potholders instead of gloves would we think it was a potholder maker? Very interesting
Very convincing theory!
I live near to where one of the few existing (or ever created?) was found, beneath the foundations of an old church, when it was dug in the 12th Century AD and one of the notible features of the _Roman Dodecahedron_ (apart from its 'nodules') is that each 'hole' is of a different size.
The Dodecahedron varied in size from about an inch, up to about 4 inches diameter
Could they make chainmail w something like this? Like knitting wire? Is that a thing??
Hello from 2021!
Seeing that thing for the first time idk how many years ago, my first thought was textiles of some sort. People keep saying, in other places, that it's ridiculous for this to be made (sometimes in silver or gold) 'just' to use on clothes. What they forget is that your clothing (before fast fashion became the word in fashion) was /expensive/ to make. Bronze examples vs. gold examples are the same comparison that can be made in the example of cotton vs. silk thread for sewing invisible seams, or for making lace. Why would they be included in grave goods? Why are spindles, and so many other textile-related objects also found in grave goods?
Martin Hallett TheMartinhallett , could you tell us the diameter of the dodecahedron and where you got it? Thanks.
Check out JACANT at Shapeways. Distance across looks to be 5 cm without the studs.
Ha! This satisfies the desire for the Occam's Razor explanation in me. Nifty to see such an everyday usage turn out to be plausible/probable.
The weaving thing is ok, but does not account for the different sized holes on each plane. But now that I think of it, the holes could be gauges for fingers and toes.
That's damned clever, Mister Hallett.
These objects very well could have been used for knitting...I hadn't realized the holes are three different sizes. Is that true for all of the objects that have been found? My personal belief is that these objects were used in some way as a gauge for rope or string, or perhaps used as spacers for tile projects like mosaics. It's really strange that there are no contemporary references describing these objects.
Not strange.
Must have been everyday stuff nobody cared about enough to waste valuable velum or papyrus on.
@jetboy33
"or perhaps used as spacers for tile projects like mosaics"
I'm laughing because i'm a ceramic tile fitter.
Nice ! I think this is a side-effect but not the actual main usage - in my opinion. I need to get some inspiration to put my solution to paper, although I think with few original ones I know a way to confirm my proof :) Knowing myself takes probably year to write a paper on it... Now I need to order a copy from somewhere :)
Oh, they are very important indeed, not decoration or such. And very usable in more than one profession. Hint: Fi...
I appreciate your post but the dark purple text on black background is very difficult to read.
I have to know how long did it take you to actually figure out the process to actually make the glove???
Once someone else had spotted that the holes were probably for fingers, not that long - an hour maybe. But I had to learn French knitting first by watching RUclips videos.
Wow! Thank you.. I was always intrigued as to what this artifact was for..Thank you..problem solved.
You probably discovered its purpose, but have these gloves been found?
Idk
Now it's a question of comparing the results from this experiment (particularly after some practice) to extant textile finds.
Do you have a blog post that covers more things like how you thought of it, how you cast on & technique, etc.?
Hello Mildred, I was really surprised at the level of interest in this video. I think I need to do some more work on the technique, but I have a friend who has volunteered her (really amazing) crocheting skills and I'll try to post something in a few weeks perhaps. A blog is a good idea thank you. I'll see how easy it is to put one up.
There's enough cross over between history geeks and knitting geeks (even before you get into the re-enactment groups) that your video is going to get a bit of notice. :) I'm fascinated, and I know I'm not alone.
Seeing as you're part of the resistance, I'll see what I can do ;-)
You play Ingress as well?
Not so active now, but yes I like to paint the town blue.
Hey Martin have u played with the solid shaped ones? Could u possibly?
Brilliant Watson ....Brilliant ...
Not just for making gloves ,its main purpose wax to make gold chains of various sizes,like made to measure.
This blows my mind. You can make a pair of Gloves with this. You know how important gloves are?
You said it took several hours. Do you think this method saved time over some other method that could have been available to anyone at that time? Did you end up with a better product? Also how much of an effect did the hole sizes have on the final size of the fingers?
do you say, a skilled worker at a tool needs the same time as a person who never before figured out how to work with it would need?
@@esci85 I'd expect that if someone hands me a simple time or labour saving device, that after a 3 hour trial, I'd be able to notice the benefits. A drill over a screwdriver, a hatchet over a hand axe, a fishing rod over a spear, or a shovel over a stick and hand. We should expect that the barrier to entry should be lowered, or the ability of the user should be extended significantly.
@@hjf3022 well then your expectations are beyond reality :)
or how long does it you to make boards from a tree with an axe? its pretty simple, isnt it?
but i bet my arse off, that a skilled woodworker, who does that for a living, does 5 times faster than you.
do you really wanna tell me, that a simple tool must be simple to master? but yet they are tools.
you never had a tool in your hand, didnt you?
@@esci85 your comparison is irrelevant. We aren't and cant compare the maker of this video's skill to a skilled ancient Roman. The efficacy of the tool will be measured by the benefit to the person using it versus using an alternative tool. It would take me a very long time to make board from a tree with an axe, yes. But if you handed me a better tool for the job, you'd expect it to take me a shorter amount of time, or that I'd be able to do a better job of it compared to not using the tool, else people would not see utility in adopting the tool. You'd expect this would apply to me as to a carpenter.
All humans use tools, even toddler with a spoon is using a tool, if you don't understand the purpose of a tool, then it is you who is the tool.
@@hjf3022 okay. then i hand you for your first time in your life a chainsaw.
we´ll see if you get it startet untill the woodworker splited the tree and if you end up in a hospital :)
your theory is BS.
as further the tool is evolved, the harder it is to master.
what do you think why there are now 20 Sciences applied in printing a newspaper when a clay tablet does the job?
can you program a cnc mill?
these are the newest tools, so they should be easy to work with, along your theory.
if you put the stick out of your arse and instead of arguing search for a second video, from different persons who done it more than one time, or read the comments to look for opinions, not for BSing other theories by pseudoeducated half-thoughts without spending just a split second to view it from different perspectives, we all would win.