Glad I could catch up on what I missed on the live stream. Hope this all works out. Those laser ride height sensors are pretty cool. I'd love to see those datalogged with speed and against the track. Great work y'all
just curious which side of the cooling system ur planning to put the restrictor on ?? as you mentioned the factory water pump could be cavitating at high rpm especially with the radiator mounted lower down it's definitely plausible u were getting some air pockets
How about using pistons with thermal barrier coating on top? I do agree it might be caused by coolant issue... Not only due to waterpump oversped, but also i think could be from coolant super-steam occurs at the hottest area which is around the combustion chamber... This specifically a common issue on ej20/25 subaru engine with closed deck block... The way i saw an engine builder went around to solve this issue is by machining a full 360degree coolant channel around each cylinder deck to ensure optimum coolant flow at the hottest spot in the engine... (Ref: subi-performance youtube channel) This mod u might want to look into for further increase the cooling efficiency on the engine itself... And 1 more think i think personally tuning ignition advance untill it stop making maximum power/torque at specific rom and load, and often referencing to knock signal, I personally think u need dial back the advance a few more degree to a level it just starting making the best power/torque numbers (than trying maxing out the torque/power number with maximum allowed ignition advance)... I think by this method will offer the best engine stability especially in super hot race/track condition and allowing slightly bigger safety margin when high ambient temperature comes into play on the track...
So the head at #1 got so hot that it melted itself and sprayed on piston, yet all that heat didn't induce any knock? That's a bullet proof tune! I suppose you run closed loop knock control, did it pull any timing as it was torching away? I hope you guys sort it out in a reasonable time and get back on the track 🤘
Built a lot of SR20 builds back in the days.. I made custom swirl tank with coolant bleeding valve positioned higher than the head so I can make sure there will be no air left in the system when filling up the coolant the first time
the SR20VE i was running back in the day at 8600 rpm i couldn't keep heat in the engine even after i changed the thermostat once i hit 130 mph mind u i wasn't making nothing near that kind of power.. wondering if the DET and VE water pump are different.?? i ended up under driving the pump
As I mechanic who rallied, I often ask myself what are the gains for an electric water pump, especially on a race car. Yes, I can see that you may reduce a small amount of parasitic drag and slight power loss, but it worries me replacing a known reliable system with an electric motor and a third-party housing built to a price. Just me being old fashioned?
*known reliable system for a stock, unmodified OEM spec engine 😉 In a nutshell, unless you have a specific requirement for replacing your factory pump or any other part, you don't need to. Not really old fashioned, different builds have different requirements - Taz.
@@hpa101 That's a fair assessment I guess. Our rally cars were restricted and didn't do above standard rpm, so the original parts served the purpose just fine. Thanks for the message
Modern electric motors are actually very reliable, as are the control systems, so there's no reason to conclude they're going be be unreliable. As for being 'built to a price', that applies to everything and isn't a problem as long as it is built to the design standard - it isn't as if they're no-name off-brand product. I would also point out that many modern engines still drive their water pumps by belts, and it's not uncommon for them to fail. Following your other point, about what use they'd be for a lower power, spec'series where rpm is limited, I'd suggest that would be an excellent application, if legal. With the mechanical pump, it's taking the same amo0unt or power to drive whether the engine is hot, cold, or just right, whereas the electric pump will draw as much power from the alternator as required at that time, so not only is it more efficient, but it may be working less. The result? A small but significant overall power advantage over one's competition - 2% at 100hp is going to be more significant than 5% at 500hp!
@@hpa101 You might find this interesting www.h1v8.com/build-pictures3.html [I'm an internet comment tuner, so take with grain of salt] While using PWM to tie water pump output to temperature seems obvious, is there going to be problems with hot spots in the engine with less circulation as opposed to circulation going through the radiator or not?
As I know Thermostat opening is related to Engine coolant temp, pump flow is related to Engine speed. Shouldn't the pump be running all the time to prevent hot spots in the sleeves?
Yes and no. If the engine is developing hot spots, it means the rest of the coolant is also going to be hotter, so the pump would be pumping faster, anyway. If you're thinking the pump is turned off and so no coolant is circulating it shouldn't be a factor as normally the pump will have a minimum speed, just for this very reason - especially when warming up. Some modern engines are designed so with the thermostat 'closed' the coolant is re-circulated within the engine, and when it reaches the point where the thermostat begins to open, it starts diverting increasing amounts of coolant through the radiator rather than internally, until it is fully open. With this setup, the pump can be run at low speed to warm the engine up evenly, and then increase rpm from around the 'stat opening point to full rpm as required. The other common, older design has the thermostat simply stopping, stalling, the passage of the coolant to the radiator and it may be simplest to remove the thermostat - and replace it with a restrictor, if needed, to ensure block pressurisation - then simply run the pump at a minimum speed until the operating temperature is reached, and adjust the ramp speed around that point for best temperature control.
@@gordowg1wg145 well that was thorough ! thanks. It caught my attention because in our engine test cell i have an variable flow electronic valve to act as thermostat that opens the flow of the coolant to the water-water heat exchanger according to the ECT, and an electric pump that is controlled in relation to engine speed. Setup is performing what i need, apart from the coolant hose imploding because of it's location being between the engine and the valve.
@@hashemmi24 Cool 😉 I'd suggest, if practical, moving the valve to the 'out' with it being kept slightly open, when 'closed' to help bleed out any air trapped in the coolant passages?
@@gordowg1wg145 Thanks for the suggestions. I considered that, but the valve is pretty far(2 meters) , and inlet and outlet have silicone hoses. The valve is open less than 10 percent for the reason you mentioned, in addition to preventing thermal shock to the exchanger.
@@hashemmi24 Ah, I see. If it's a problem, you can buy re-inforced hose that will resist collapse, or an 'old school' trick is to insert a stretched out spring (or series of), of a suitable diameter and material to resist corrosion, inside the hose. You can check out your local heavy/industrial machinery store, as they're often used as scavenge lines between hydraulic tanks and pumps.
How dare you, you're dead to me Falah....haha I think sleeping is fair enough mate! At least you can catch the pre-show here and the webinar on the site afterwards. If you want specific webinar reminders you can manually setup a notification via the webinar page as well once you're logged in: www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/ That said, due to the time crunch on the 86 there were 2 or 3 weeks where we had to put these on hold - Taz.
Hmm, interesting Albert. We're using the Ecumaster PMU16 to control the pump but it's requiring more fine tuning than it should. I can't PM you through RUclips but if you want to fire us an email to support@hpacademy.com it would be interesting to hear what you have done with your setup :) - Taz.
Sweat is acidic and also certain medications can also influence what you come into contact with. It is worse for some than others, applies to everyone nonetheless. I have seen a man on kidney medication have a silver bracelet basically turn to rubber and a woman with very acidic skin have the copper in her gold jewellery start to oxidise after only a few hours wear. Very odd. Unless you're pouring acid or sweat into your motor oil you should be good there, completely different 😎 - Taz.
![NLE Choppa - Or What ft. 41 (Orchestra Mix) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/biOFASEgSOM/mqdefault.jpg)
![Heat Management, Cam Swaps and MORE | Today At HPA [#UPDATE 264]](/img/1.gif)
Glad I could catch up on what I missed on the live stream. Hope this all works out. Those laser ride height sensors are pretty cool. I'd love to see those datalogged with speed and against the track. Great work y'all
It's great to see that people are still pushing the ICE engine technology.
just curious which side of the cooling system ur planning to put the restrictor on ?? as you mentioned the factory water pump could be cavitating at high rpm especially with the radiator mounted lower down it's definitely plausible u were getting some air pockets
How about using pistons with thermal barrier coating on top?
I do agree it might be caused by coolant issue...
Not only due to waterpump oversped,
but also i think could be from coolant super-steam occurs at the hottest area which is around the combustion chamber...
This specifically a common issue on ej20/25 subaru engine with closed deck block...
The way i saw an engine builder went around to solve this issue is by machining a full 360degree coolant channel around each cylinder deck to ensure optimum coolant flow at the hottest spot in the engine... (Ref: subi-performance youtube channel)
This mod u might want to look into for further increase the cooling efficiency on the engine itself...
And 1 more think i think personally tuning ignition advance untill it stop making maximum power/torque at specific rom and load, and often referencing to knock signal,
I personally think u need dial back the advance a few more degree to a level it just starting making the best power/torque numbers (than trying maxing out the torque/power number with maximum allowed ignition advance)...
I think by this method will offer the best engine stability especially in super hot race/track condition and allowing slightly bigger safety margin when high ambient temperature comes into play on the track...
The Pierburg CWA400 is also a good PWM water pump upgrade. I'm going to be installing one on my 3SGTE.
Do you have any info on how you did this forum? Facebook? And did you see any results that justifies doing this
So the head at #1 got so hot that it melted itself and sprayed on piston, yet all that heat didn't induce any knock? That's a bullet proof tune! I suppose you run closed loop knock control, did it pull any timing as it was torching away?
I hope you guys sort it out in a reasonable time and get back on the track 🤘
Built a lot of SR20 builds back in the days.. I made custom swirl tank with coolant bleeding valve positioned higher than the head so I can make sure there will be no air left in the system when filling up the coolant the first time
the SR20VE i was running back in the day at 8600 rpm i couldn't keep heat in the engine even after i changed the thermostat once i hit 130 mph mind u i wasn't making nothing near that kind of power.. wondering if the DET and VE water pump are different.?? i ended up under driving the pump
As I mechanic who rallied, I often ask myself what are the gains for an electric water pump, especially on a race car.
Yes, I can see that you may reduce a small amount of parasitic drag and slight power loss, but it worries me replacing a known reliable system with an electric motor and a third-party housing built to a price.
Just me being old fashioned?
Don't think so.
*known reliable system for a stock, unmodified OEM spec engine 😉
In a nutshell, unless you have a specific requirement for replacing your factory pump or any other part, you don't need to. Not really old fashioned, different builds have different requirements - Taz.
@@hpa101
That's a fair assessment I guess.
Our rally cars were restricted and didn't do above standard rpm, so the original parts served the purpose just fine.
Thanks for the message
Modern electric motors are actually very reliable, as are the control systems, so there's no reason to conclude they're going be be unreliable. As for being 'built to a price', that applies to everything and isn't a problem as long as it is built to the design standard - it isn't as if they're no-name off-brand product.
I would also point out that many modern engines still drive their water pumps by belts, and it's not uncommon for them to fail.
Following your other point, about what use they'd be for a lower power, spec'series where rpm is limited, I'd suggest that would be an excellent application, if legal. With the mechanical pump, it's taking the same amo0unt or power to drive whether the engine is hot, cold, or just right, whereas the electric pump will draw as much power from the alternator as required at that time, so not only is it more efficient, but it may be working less.
The result? A small but significant overall power advantage over one's competition - 2% at 100hp is going to be more significant than 5% at 500hp!
@@hpa101 You might find this interesting www.h1v8.com/build-pictures3.html [I'm an internet comment tuner, so take with grain of salt] While using PWM to tie water pump output to temperature seems obvious, is there going to be problems with hot spots in the engine with less circulation as opposed to circulation going through the radiator or not?
Andre! HPA! what's really good guys?💪
Great info
Did you choose SR20VE or SR20DE pistons for the build?
As I know Thermostat opening is related to Engine coolant temp, pump flow is related to Engine speed. Shouldn't the pump be running all the time to prevent hot spots in the sleeves?
Yes and no.
If the engine is developing hot spots, it means the rest of the coolant is also going to be hotter, so the pump would be pumping faster, anyway. If you're thinking the pump is turned off and so no coolant is circulating it shouldn't be a factor as normally the pump will have a minimum speed, just for this very reason - especially when warming up.
Some modern engines are designed so with the thermostat 'closed' the coolant is re-circulated within the engine, and when it reaches the point where the thermostat begins to open, it starts diverting increasing amounts of coolant through the radiator rather than internally, until it is fully open. With this setup, the pump can be run at low speed to warm the engine up evenly, and then increase rpm from around the 'stat opening point to full rpm as required.
The other common, older design has the thermostat simply stopping, stalling, the passage of the coolant to the radiator and it may be simplest to remove the thermostat - and replace it with a restrictor, if needed, to ensure block pressurisation - then simply run the pump at a minimum speed until the operating temperature is reached, and adjust the ramp speed around that point for best temperature control.
@@gordowg1wg145 well that was thorough ! thanks.
It caught my attention because in our engine test cell i have an variable flow electronic valve to act as thermostat that opens the flow of the coolant to the water-water heat exchanger according to the ECT, and an electric pump that is controlled in relation to engine speed. Setup is performing what i need, apart from the coolant hose imploding because of it's location being between the engine and the valve.
@@hashemmi24
Cool 😉
I'd suggest, if practical, moving the valve to the 'out' with it being kept slightly open, when 'closed' to help bleed out any air trapped in the coolant passages?
@@gordowg1wg145 Thanks for the suggestions. I considered that, but the valve is pretty far(2 meters) , and inlet and outlet have silicone hoses.
The valve is open less than 10 percent for the reason you mentioned, in addition to preventing thermal shock to the exchanger.
@@hashemmi24 Ah, I see. If it's a problem, you can buy re-inforced hose that will resist collapse, or an 'old school' trick is to insert a stretched out spring (or series of), of a suitable diameter and material to resist corrosion, inside the hose.
You can check out your local heavy/industrial machinery store, as they're often used as scavenge lines between hydraulic tanks and pumps.
why only Dash16 for the cooling system ? OEM is way bigger inner diameter?
Possibly because the OEM design needs to have minimum restriction for idle flow, when the pump is inefficient?
I no longer receive email notifications before a webinar. I skipped many classes because I am sleeping here when that goes live.
How dare you, you're dead to me Falah....haha I think sleeping is fair enough mate! At least you can catch the pre-show here and the webinar on the site afterwards.
If you want specific webinar reminders you can manually setup a notification via the webinar page as well once you're logged in: www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/
That said, due to the time crunch on the 86 there were 2 or 3 weeks where we had to put these on hold - Taz.
I love to see andre do a subtle dance where he sometimes shakes his hips out of nowhere.
what exactly waterpump is this ? never found one with dash fittings
We have modified this pump :) - Taz.
I had a situation when the electric water pump was destroying the engine I ended making my own custom controller PM for more info
Hmm, interesting Albert. We're using the Ecumaster PMU16 to control the pump but it's requiring more fine tuning than it should. I can't PM you through RUclips but if you want to fire us an email to support@hpacademy.com it would be interesting to hear what you have done with your setup :) - Taz.
11:30 WDF ?? are you serious? what about motor oil?
Sweat is acidic and also certain medications can also influence what you come into contact with. It is worse for some than others, applies to everyone nonetheless.
I have seen a man on kidney medication have a silver bracelet basically turn to rubber and a woman with very acidic skin have the copper in her gold jewellery start to oxidise after only a few hours wear. Very odd.
Unless you're pouring acid or sweat into your motor oil you should be good there, completely different 😎 - Taz.
#NotificationGang
Andre: "one thing we will be changing is the water pump"
Me: Bro! That's a turbo..