BEST ARGUMENT : SPIDER BALL PYTHON GENE MISINFORMATION
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- Опубликовано: 20 мар 2019
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I appreciate you actually watching the videos and responding constructively, unlike mr B. If you were the only producer of spider available, my opinion would probably be different, and I think the most common issue are people that only look into their own collection. Since I don't have a spider collection, my only choice is to look outwards to everyone else. Like brian said, it's impossible to breed the gene out but clearly some breeders have extremely consistent clutches with visible yet minor issues. I've been hands-on with fewer spiders than what you probably produce per season, so I take advantage of shows/expos/etc and converse with many keepers and sellers who send me info and videos of their own. Walk down the aisle at Repticon, ask to hold a few snakes while observing the others, and you can see each seller is very consistent between their own animals, but not consistent with other vendors. Some will have spiders where half the individuals are sideways in their display shelves while other vendors will have some wobbly dudes but nothing you'd notice off the bat. It's kind of like how a few booths will have animals literally on the verge of death - let's use bearded dragons as an example. While some will have these beautiful, plump and energetic beardies, others look like they're just waiting to shrivel up and turn into dust. Of course we aren't going to just ban dragons because not everyone can take care of them. But, we also know how to fix it. Long story short, feed them a good diet with proper husbandry and you're generally good to go. Spiders on the other hand appear to be the fastest growing gene in the community where we see no quality control with so many sellers. On top of that, it has so many unknowns and unpredictability that it will continue to get out of hand if left unregulated. The hundreds of people that unknowingly bought spiders and later regret it is growing at a similar ratio to how popular the gene is becoming and I would consider this inattentional blindness which goes past the ethicalities of it, and into the market being misled aswell. Then, the next question of course is, how far do regulations go? I personally left those details out in the video because I have no opinion set in stone yet. Hopefully it can continue being discussed!
@Your FakeNews lol what's that linked for
Hi, I missed this comment.... I watched some of the vids and it was hard at times to view as people just jumped on the bandwagon. I do not deny the wobble of the Spider gene for sure but I do not make these miserable upside down snakes and all that. I would not want to make babies that failed or I felt compelled to die out of sorrow or literal embarrassment!!!! One thing that would really bother me is that if I sold an animal and the customer ends up with this upside down corkscrewing snake ...I would not even send it!!! I could not expect my customer to think hey this is just great!!!!! I just think if people don't like it or it is a worry then they can just choose not to have it or breed it...but i do value having that choice instead of having someone else decide for me!!!! You are still a young guy and I can tell you that as we grow we always change our perspective and i often think back 5 years ago and go, wow, how did I do that or think that...... I think we just refine our ideas as the years pass, I am endlessly humbled by my mistakes and boy do I make mistakes and try to learn from my stupidity@!! I just do not think the Spider gene should be deemed as something that should be banned or not kept and bred as pet snakes!!!
@@NewEnglandReptile Thanks for responding! Yeah I agree with just about all of this, and I've already dedicated a couple vids to my mistakes from 5+ years ago lol. The issue is there is no quality control with so many sellers, even if NERD specifically does have that "screening" of what you sell. Customers are left with no disclaimers or up-front warnings, because nobody has brought it up until this past month and it leaves many people with regret due to the lack of knowledge beforehand. I also agree a governmental ban would be irresponsible and potentially dangerous, but an expo ban would make sense if breeders aren't willing to let their buyers know of these concerns up front. So far, many, many people have already told me they would not have purchased their spider if they could choose again due to the lack of education. Based on this info, I would argue that the market demand will be greatly impacted and decrease if they are given proper knowledge or disclaimers. Especially since many irresponsible breeders do still have such horrific clutches of spiders.
If you're ever interested in chatting, I'm very open via email or instagram or whatever because you seem much more open minded.
I don’t even own snakes but you are talking about regulating the sell of something living that has no severe issue from a good breeder because you have people who make the stupid decision to buy from bad breeders. That has nothing to do with the gene of the animal. It has to do with people buying a living thing without proper research. Basically a shotgun decision that they later regret. That is their fault so why in the world would you take it out on the thousands of perfectly amazing spider ball pythons. It’s no different than banning a breed of dog because there are irresponsible breeders and people who buy from them.
Hello, I can be open minded as you are not just making statements without thinking. If we are idealistic, everything must be bred in many cases to be perfect. There can be no variation from the wild type ball python behavior. The Spider gene and some others would stick out as "different", falling outside this level of perfection. Thinking this way what are we saying, if it is not this then it is no good.... if it does not act a certain way then it is less than others? We are keeping PETS here, we are doing this for our own little needs, desires and ideas. If we look at domesticated animals it is rather clear how we have purposely have altered the wild type animal and changed them to suit our needs. We literally fill our homes with dog breeds based on literal genetic defects that cost the animal it's comfort, it's lifespan and other aspects of health. We bred in many cases defects that we consider cute, endearing and such that never existed...... we have literally done as much as we can to twist up the body structures of these animals to fit our desires. We literally are highlighting genetic birth defects. We have dogs that can not longer birth their puppies without a literal C Section. All of these things are rather overlooked and not exactly a crisis it seems ( I am not weighing in on either side as I do not own a dog and I don't even quite know what to think). We then genetically modify chickens to make them grow bigger quicker and such so we can eat them and make a faster profit.... I personally do not like that and try to eat very little meat. These chickens are endless victims of our own needs but we generally ignore it. My point is that if we are just being idealistic for no real reason or its because we think its the right thing to do...where is the start, middle and END? I know what it's like to deal with agencies and such that dictate what we do when dealing with reptiles. I understand permits and in some cases quite valid, in other cases its in my opinion over reaching and people that are in charge are less than qualified. If you want to be idealistic start there, the people that tell us what to do!!!!!!! There are so many people creating laws that are inept, ignorant and corrupt; be idealistic there, the lawmakers and the people crying are in a grey area and many of them have agendas you never see or can even comprehend (at least I can not). It is your choice not to have the gene or whatever, it's great, you still have a CHOICE. I've endured the struggle of over reaching legislation and suffered the cost, I do not like it and in most aspects it is about CONTROL. I do not want to Government to take care of me, hold my hand when I cross the street!!!! I want to run all over and play in traffic, if I get run over then it's AWESOME...... it was my choice.... I made decisions and that is the way it should be. Every day there are more laws, restrictions and others imposing their close minded poorly educated ideals on others. Does this make some sense? I have certain views on many things but I also need to pinch myself and remind myself, what makes me always right? NOTHING! Some things are clear to see the black and white side while others are complicated with there never really being a "right" answer. You start this ball rolling it will get only worse and it is just plain WRONG! @@GoHerping
Hi! Neuroscientist here 😊 I am studying movement disorders, and did a little digging in academic journals. I think the biggest problem with the argument surrounding the spider gene is difficulties in understanding reptile welfare. There’s not much research on it, making it hard to asses.
This video uses feeding behavior and reproduction as evidence of positive welfare in snakes. In the few studies being done on reptile stress-responses, research has found that CHRONICALLY stressed reptiles are actually more likely to become obese. So a feeding response/body shape is not a good measurement of a healthy animal.
Animals that are stressed for a short, intense period do experience difficulties eating and reproducing. But this stress is not necessarily the same category as chronically living with a motor impairment. Typically these intense stressors include being chased by a predator, being injured, etc.
Breeding is not actually a great measurement of health either. The overall occurrence of intercourse does not appear to be affected in CB reptiles. In the wild, chances of reproductive success is lower because the hormones that drive mating behavior or territorial defense behavior are altered by stress.
But when you put a male snake in an environment where there is no male competition, he probably doesn’t need to make much effort in convincing the female to choose him nor does he need to expend energy to defend his territory. Some female reptiles are capable of reabsorbing their eggs when there are changes to their egg-laying environment (e.g. marine turtles). But idk if this happens in snakes. Therefore, we can probably assume that two snakes in a tub with no habitat threats are probably going to reproduce. Maybe females that express the spider gene have a harder time to reproduce in comparison to males, and data for this hypothesis could easily be collected by breeders. Not saying that IS the case, just saying it’d be easy to test and that it’d be interesting to see if there is a difference between male breeders and the female breeders that express the spider gene.
One way to measure stress is to actually measure glucocorticoid levels in their feces, but this requires a bit more in terms of resources. Also, corticosterone levels can vary according to the reptile’s dominance.
“But not all of the snakes with the spider gene display a wobble.” Yeah, sure. Not all German Shepherds develop Hip Dysplasia, but it’s still an important discussion to have when we talk about selective breeding and animal welfare. Research has been developing better ways to identify which breeder animals are most at risk for developing these, and we should be trying to do this for reptiles too.
We still don’t understand the spider gene. Who knows if it has another effect that isn’t visibly obvious like the wobble? I think it’s irresponsible for us to say that just because we have snakes that can eat & make babies that it’s okay for us to continue producing this snake. We should really strive to better understand the situation first & research what constitutes stress in reptiles. I appreciate the opinions presented in this video, in GoHerping's, etc and think this is a really important conversation to be had about animal welfare. :)
Finally. Someone who doesnt blindly follow one side. My parents raised be to be skeptical and always question things. I cant really say these big name breeders are changing my mind on the subject due to the fact they arent using very logical arguments and the arguments they have are filled with fallacies. Of course big name sellers of something are gonna say they know it's fine. Reminds me of Nestle and oil companies.
@@Stimpization ok so you dont trust "the big named breeders" but who do you trust? Just everyone who says its bad on youtube?
Hows a animal that cant eat if it has this terrible wobble and stressed gonna become obese from stress eating?
@@Hades-shadow I take everything with a grain of salt. I am very biased as I am more of a classical natural color type guy but I have an appreciation for most morphs. Honestly I'd really like to hear the voices of some more smaller breeders who believe the spider gene is fine and I'd like to see more research on the true effects it has.
So, what would be the way you measure a healthy snake?
I think part of the problem here is that Kevin probably knows the exact lineage of his spiders, because he *started* them, and has been selectively breeding them responsibly; not breeding snakes with extreme cases. The problem is the small/irresponsible breeders who aren't being careful about what they are breeding.
i had something to say, but you said it for me. the problem stems largely from breeders breeding solely for the pattern and not looking for undesirable traits and refusing to breed those ones specifically.
From what I understand, you cannot selectively breed out the wobble from a Spider. So, no, Kevin is not selectively breeding Spider to minimize wobble.
Shouldn’t be breeding snakes that have such life impacting issues. Same with dog breeds.
@@HalfMoonLakeHerps I sold my collection of balls ~20yrs ago, but remember seeing some severe wobblers, and ones that were not good eaters. I have a suspicion that the spider gene + something else like stress response, or excitement brings out the wobble. The more 'nervous' or excitable snakes didn't make it or weren't bred, and that's why the remaining spiders are now known for being good eaters... Impossible to breed 100% of the wobble out, but can breed contributing factors out... Just a hunch from some fleeting memories though.
Pretty much this. If you take two animals with an actually, legit bad wobble and breed them you'll probably end up with babies with a bad or worse wobble. Same when you breed dogs, if you breed two dogs with bad hip dysplasia you're gonna get puppies with bad hip dysplasia. If you keep breeding animals with severe conditions you're gonna get more animals with more severe conditions. That doesn't mean a very mild case or even being just a carrier is bad, it just means you actually need to be responsible in how you breed your animals to ensure the quality of life for the offspring of those animals.
I have a banana spider that was a rescue... he came from a very disgusting household but is truly beautiful now. He is one of the most affectionate and sweetest snakes I have every owned. I’m also truly blessed that I’ve had him for 6 years now with no present wobble. He will never be a breeder, but is very much my baby.❤️
What's his name? I have a spider ball, he has a slight wobble but it doesn't affect him at all
if it doesn't have the wobble, couldn't you selectively breed to another spider that has zero wobble and have most if not all babies come out great?
@kimmiek0 you never want to breed spider to spider as they are homozygous lethal.
At some point we have to admit that snakes that have a neurological defect are being bred solely because we like their pattern. Yes, some may not be as bad as others, but it’s still a bit blurry ethics wise. Another point is we don’t know what else is going on with the snake in addition to the wobbling. Neurological problems can create all kind of issues that aren’t necessarily visible.
Then you can choose not to breed them just like others can make the choice to breed them. Difference in opinion.
@@carolinethompson8261 We can choose not to breed them but that doesn't mean make everything ok because people are still causing animals suffering. I can choose not to be a rapist, that clearly doesn't mean others have a right to rape. This argument is stupid.
@@armourdillo1236 surely if these animals were suffering then they wouldn't eat well or breed? 🤔
@@MsBabylove11 Well no not necessarily. Just because you can successfully keep a ball python alive in a shoe box because it will eat doesn't mean that its ok. And that's completely ignoring the fact that the wobble can lead to things such as missed strikes where the animal will blatantly suffer.
@@MsBabylove11 Funny you say that because they do have difficulties eating.
I would like to defend GoHerping a little here. I don't think the argument is they are all like that. It's that there is a much higher possibility for them to have these neurological issues. A lot of cases it isn't extreme, but you run the risk of it a higher rate than any other snake.
So it comes down to your personal ethics. I personally wouldn't buy or breed these snakes. I don't want to push the possibility for an extreme case. I personally don't want to support that.
Of course not all cases are like this, but the bigger it is, the more snakes are affected by these extreme cases. Do I think these should be banned outright? Not exactly, however, I wouldn't want to support it myself.
@MasonWebb Double check both GoHerping's avatar, as well as his video recording to seek veterinary treatment for his animal who hasn't eaten in over a year. He's not the best resource in proper care, treatment, or discernment.
@@TheNocturnalpheonix Did you even watch that video? That snake was very healthy. And it isn't unheard of for ball pythons to do that. Don't say what he is or isn't when you don't even know.
What would his avatar have to do with anything?
TheNocturnalpheonix what’s his avatar have to do with anything you mong?
@@nightingaleseraph Thank you so much for the word "mong". I just cackled.
Thank you for pointing it out. If you go to GoHerping's pinned response to this video you'll notice how quickly Kevin loses his shit as soon as the word "regulate" is mentioned and quickly ditched all efforts for an open conversation, just to go back to the same old "I'm more experienced, you guys are young, it's your fault you guys bought flawed snakessss" arguments.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to breed animals that even have the slightest neurological issues. I love the look of spiders, and especially the bumblebee, but I don't see that as a good enough reason to risk the health of future generations. The wobble is random enough that it might not happen, or it gets super bad, and I simply wouldnt risk the wellfare of the babies I produced. I say the same about dog breeds, and other animals that have genetic issues.
I personally support the ban on spider balls, if anything the animals that have issues need to be regulated. A german shepard with a sloping back might to fine as a domesticated pet, but it doesn't change the fact that the back is causing it small discomfort to big issues in mobility. That doesn't mean that all animals will have the same issues, but if you get animals with issues the responsible thing to do is to not breed it or put it down.
Each to their own. An animal with no issues is a happy animal, and some handicap is something that doesn't have to ruin the quality of life for the animal. Healthy spiders are awesome animals, unhealthy spiders are sadly something that shouldnt be bred.
Totally, you should never ever breed spider, stay far away from it, more for me yay!
Exactly just because you breed a few that only have sight wobble it doesn't mean you won't get some that are disabled because of it
Thanks for being straight and clear with your statement. I fully agree with you, i am also against spiders and i am avoiding the gene at all costs, i really want a healthy pet for myself, and i don't want to support the breeders to keep producing these animals. I hope i can eventually find a ball i like and is completely healthy. :)
In all reality these are the reason I chose to stay away from spiders any neurological problems would normally be "culled" but here it is kept because it looks cool. Tell everyone else something there ate other cool patterns discovered that don't come worth this issue that are Co dominant like leopards, lesser, bamboo, woma, pinstripe, etc. Losing one negative gene won't kill people but everyone in the hobby acts like it because of all the breeding combo possibilities. Frankly as an upcoming breeder that has been in veterinary medicine as a technician I can say my ethics are not to breed any spiders or snakes that genetically are linked to a specific look. Treat champaign like you would a Merle in dogs to avoid getting those anomalies and discourage the production of spiders which is clearly linked to minor to severe neurological conditions.
And super cinnamon's. Never breed those. They have major spine kinks
"What about people with disability? Should we also ban them from 'breeding'?"
If that's what you're asking, please allow me to answer that question.
For your information, I'm a thalassemia carrier. And knowing there's a high chance my future children will be thalassemic if I marry someone with a thalassemia carrier gene, I wouldn't exactly "breed" myself with that someone. Even if I'm married to that someone, I would definitely choose adoption rather than giving birth to a child who has a high precentage of having a disability all his/her life. So it happens in humans too. If getting married means I have to give birth to children with 100% chance of having disability, I would rather stay single.
I won't say I speak for all the people with high chance of passing disabilities to their young. But in my opinion, if they know they have the disabilities gene that have a high chance of being passed, I seriously think they should consider adoption. I wouldn't say ban them from marriage, but it might be better to show them that there are other ways to have child other than giving birth. Also, if they know the risk and still want to have their own child via giving birth, well then be my guest, but they have to be prepared for the worst.
For example if I still want to have a child and gave birth, and unfortunately, the child is thalasemic, I should be ready to pay his/her medical fees. I should have already researched it beforehand, so if the worst case happen and the child is born with disabilities, at least they'll be taken care of properly. For your information, in my country, the base medical fee to care for a thalassemic patient is about 15 million per month. That's a lot of money, without even considering the base fee for their everyday life. So they need to be prepared, financially, physically, and mentally to give care to the child. It's not easy, but it's their responsibility for knowing the risk and still went through it.
I hope I got my point across. Sorry for the long comment and bad English (it's not my first language). Thank you for reading
snakes aren't people tho. im not a breeder but i do have a regular ball python and it has a wobble and has no balance and misses when it eats but its 100% a wild type so its not just spiders
My friends and I who all have genetic autoimmune disorders refuse to have children ourselves. We live with so incredibly difficult and painful conditions and would never wish them on another person, so no making a child with a 50/50 shot at getting the same problem. Not happening.
@@bricolst5019 the spider gene must be located on the same chromosome close to the wobble gene cause you have some spiders with little wobble and some with a lot. And if non spiders can have the gene it could be a protein issue. I'm not a biologist, this is 100% speculation but now I'm pretty interested in it.
I got a vasectomy as soon as I was an adult. I would never want a child to have the kind of pain and utter fatigue I do.
Jesus some of these comments are vicious. Seems like just because goherping is a young guy he’s not even being taken seriously at all and that’s really sad to me
I don’t think it has anything to do with his age . As with anything no matter who you are there will always be critics also as with anything you shouldn’t talk out on any subject with out knowing about and exactly what it is your commenting/ talking out on unless your ready for people to correct you when your wrong as rude as some people may be . That’s Life and the Internet that will never change . TBH this part is just my personal opinion and really has nothing to do with GoHerping because for his age he was decently informed ... in my opinion no one should be allowed to talk out on a subject they know nothing about . Asking questions to learn is one thing but acting and talking as if you do when you in fact are blowing smoke out your A*** so to speak is just asking to have people jump down your throat over it .
Yeah and this video is taking such tiny snippets of his video, he said multiple times this is just how his spider was not all
That kid has no clue what he is talking about and i for one take his 2 years of experience as a joke. I'll stick to listening to somebody that has 30+ years of knowledge. Like Kevin and Brian
@@dvlexotics2177 Brian doesn't even take care of his animals correctly
@@justinbates3264 the thing is, time doesn't equal quality. Brian is frankly a known bad breeder with lots of experience, but newer breeders can have wonderful, better setups. Research has went into enrichment as well as intelligence and care and a lot of newer breeders and hobbyists read this new info and if anything, their open-ness to reform and change for healthier animals and removing defects (not ignoring) is to be admired. Also channels like snakediscovery show that bins can be enriched, and health matters. Spiders are entirely bad and this video legit has him say all have the wobblr at some point so why even RISK it by breeding. But yeah. 30 years can be nothing if someone isn't willing to learn and change with the times and pay attention to animals, not just the money.
So he saw the wobble right away. Thought it was endearing and kept breeding it? Lol.
And who the fuck are you exactly how much experience do you have in keeping reptiles. how old are you 9! You obviously know nothing about reptiles or this man Kevin is one of the kindest humans alive. A genuine animal lover to the point where he is a vegan he owns many non perfect animals that would have otherwise not been given a chance at life. Alot of people who really know him on a personal level say he is a horrible business man because his love for the animals makes it hard for him to sell them. So unless you all know Kevin or at least tried to learn a little about him stop putting him down.
@@dvlexotics2177 Wouldn't you think that they would use this video to explain further as to why they would keep breeding a snake they KNOW has a neurological defect rather than use it to say how many "accomplishments" he has done with other snakes and add a bunch of stuff that doesn't really defend their argument other than how esthetically beautiful the spider is? Also you forgot to mention :"he owns many non perfect animals that would have otherwise not been given a chance at life and also helps create snakes who don't have as much quality life as they should?" I'm not attacking the man, just commenting on what it looked like they were saying. I came here to learn about spiders and how to help this problem by educating myself and possibly others on this issue. Moreover the fact that there's very solid proof of spiders' having a way of living that can be as bad as it always being upside down and then them making this video called 'Spiderball python gene MISINFORMATION' with just him just taking some of his "worst" spiders and "reacting" to videos to just say they're not true...even though he said so himself that he right away noticed the wobble? Out of how many spiders does it take for a spider to have a very bad case of the wobble? Him being a breeder I definitely have the right to believe that he has seen more cases than he would like to admit...idk man, still waiting on being proved wrong of course.
This coming from a 9 year old, of course.
@@loomylocos8183 the percentage of having a severe wobble is very low I have been breeding spider or spider combos for 15 years and have had a handful of babies that have had a noticeable wobble and maybe 2 or so with a severe wobble. Now we're talking possibly a thousand or so eggs in 15 years does that break things down for you any better. What Kevin was trying to do is show that in those anti spider videos is those are rare cases the worst of the worst
@@dvlexotics2177 so you can respond like an adult. Good to know. And putting numbers on this, awesome. As an animal lover I can't help but to feel bad for the snakes that do come out with the wobble even if the severe wobble may be rare. The definite lack of stating that these animals have a neurological issue doesn't help either and could definitely improve in general.
@@loomylocos8183 how about we just agree to disagree and just get along for the better of the hobby. Take this whole Spain thing where they just passed a law for species like ball pythons and monitors and turtles ect ECT... Things like this could absolutely happen here shit rolls down hill. All I know is I absolutely consider myself an animal lover I'm not a vegan or anything but I do love all animals I will say I do keep my meat consumption to a minimum.
So, here's my analogy for this issue.
I love German Shepherds. They are my all time favorite dog breed, and as soon as I move to a place with a decent sized yard, I'm getting one. Many people in the comments have mentioned Shepherds and Hip Dysplasia. 1 in 5 German Shepherds have Hip Dysplasia, and those that have it have varying degrees of severity just like Spider Ball Pythons. But the thing is, not all of them or even most of them have it, and it can be avoided altogether with careful breeding. Good breeders will guarantee their puppies' hips, and will know their dogs' genes through several generations to ensure only healthy traits get passed on. With Spiders, from what I understand while the gene can be diluted with other morphs enough that the wobble isn't even noticeable, all spiders have the wobble. Not all (probably not even most) cases are severe, just like how not all cases of Hip Dysplasia are severe. But not all Shepherds have Hip Dysplasia, and genetics play a very important role in avoiding it. If breeders offered a guarantee on their Spiders the way good Shepherd breeders do on their dogs' hips, assuring that their snake will have the smallest amount of wobble possible, that would be one thing. But I've NEVER seen that. I've never even seen a breeder warn potential buyers of the wobble in the available animal's description on the website. I personally do not agree with breeding any animal to have genetic defects solely for looks. I will never buy a German Shepherd puppy from an irresponsible breeder who does not guarantee their puppies' hips, and I will never buy a Spider Ball Python. I will never buy a pug, or a bulldog, or a scaleless Bearded Dragon, or any other animal that is bred knowing it will have issues that will impact its quality of life. To me, the animal's quality of life matters more than its looks, and in my opinion anyone who disagrees about that probably isn't a true animal lover
This is the best and most insightful comment. Thank you
Wow Katie no one cares ☠️☠️☠️
Not all spider ball pythons have wobble just like German Shepard not all have hip problems
@@JamesBrown-hs7hfDidn’t like pretty much all the spiders in this video have a wobble of some severity?
they literally said that the wobbling doesn’t effect them
My wife and I bought a male fire bee ball python a year ago and named him Elliott. He has a pronounced head wobble and some loopy behaviors, but he never misses a meal and is very sweet. He's our special boy and we love him :)
Now Im just a small time, little town reptile specialist in training, but I have been a herp fan for years and years, so take this as you will.
I think its great that your showing a handful of spiders in the vid, but the thing we, as customers and viewers, need to remember, is that your a breeder.
You keep the best of the best when you have clutches, and you breed the animals that are going to give you the best results, and the ones with the least issues.
Thats just how any buinsess works. Its how my own freelancing works, and not everyone thinks in that mindset.
What we DONT see is what you do to the animals that ARE 'extreme cases' as you put it.
Do you sell the ones that wobble? Do you kill them? Do you keep them for yourself?
Because it is a FACT that these 'extreme cases' are out there. Theres no denying that.
Its great that you love your animals, and its awesome that you were the first maker of a LOT of these morphs, but you arnt showing us everything, and thats whats not fair.
Because the fact still stands that there ARE 'extreme cases' out there that are going to loving homes. People who have large tanks for their snakes rather than rack systems are getting these poor animals that they really cant care for.
Breeding snakes is like breeding dogs. If someone is going to say 'you cant sell spiders' then we also need to say 'we cant sell pugs cause they cant breath' or 'you cant sell german sheps cause they have bad backs/spines'
This debate is FAR larger than 'you cant sell spiders in Europe', but honestly, where DO we draw the line?
Theres no middle ground here that would make everyone happy....
I imagine clutches of 50 spiders where 45 of them are spiraling out of control, then being thrown to the monitors or hacked up alive into reptile food. It’d be nice to have a video of a fresh hatched clutch (no editing) to show the viewers that it is or is not really this way. If 95% seem pretty on the ball it will put the argument to bed as will the opposite.
I DO NOT have Spiders hatch doing that Spiraling thing out of control!!!! It is a RARE instance that I make a Spider that I even think is wonky.... I DO NOT go and feed off these messed up babies as that would be rare. I have on the other side had kinked up babies and such with no Spider gene and that kijnd of thing just happens. Dead babies and such I would feed to my monitors. What is being described is far fetched and not what I see here at NERD! @@jackp9570
I really am not going through all of these problems. It is rare to get a rather wonky spider...I do see wobbles and such here and there but I am having to think those extreme cases have more going on and if the animal was living a stressed life it may aggravate the wobble and give us these bad examples. I have no idea what is going on out there with other breeders and dealers......... these examples of extreme animals is somehow being taken as the norm and I am NOT seeing that. It is RARE for me to have a dingy wonky or whatever Spider. As far as me keeping the best for myself...I may keep examples of combos that I consider the best but I am not thinking I like this one as there is very little wobble and i will sell these wobblers off or kill them! That does not happen!!!! I am not denying any of the extreme cases out there as my eyes work and I see the videos. I don't even know the history of those snakes...I just sit there and go WOW! Oh well, that's just some of my ideas on your comments. Thanks. K
New England Reptile Distributors I’m in no way accusing you of that. I’m speaking as a passionate boa owner who is completely ignorant to the ball python world. For a layman like me, this is the picture that is painted in our heads when we see these drunk looking pythons. If we had a definitive video showing what’s what after birth it’d clear the air one way or another
New England Reptile Distributors though I don’t agree with breeding spiders based on what I’ve seen posted. I have incredible respect for your work and think cow retics are far and away the most beautiful snakes alive. The time you took to create them and how meticulously you breed your anacondas is an art. I don’t really care if spiders are or aren’t banned but I’m super interested in these arguments and points of view
If my partner and I both carried the cystic fibrosis gene and knew we had a very high chance of having a child with cystic fibrosis we should just keep breeding cause the kids are cute and the symptoms of the disease are "endearing"?
I was really interested in hearing you clear up the "misinformation" but all we got is a biased opinion based on your experience with snakes effected... nothing about the issues later or not bred by you.
Your just plain stupid you can't compare a human being with a reptile. But you know what if 2 people with disabilities wanted to have a child and we're prepared for what may happen then I'm all for it. I am the father of a autistic son does that mean he should not have a child if he and his gf choose to. I think people are goin a bit too far with all this as it's been pointed out those other cases are extremely rare and also came from different circumstances. In 1 video Kevin showed many many spider or spider combos with little to no wobble yet people are satisfied with a few videos of just 1 or 2 severe cases of wobble some times people are just so stupid.
Breeding snakes is absolutely nothing like two humans having a child. No one has kids just because "they're cute" and no one thinks cystic fibrosis is endearing.
Also, no one is taking people and force breeding them with certain partners in order to get a desired result which the breeder wants to sell. So the comparison that if two humans who loved each other, had a baby, and it just happened to be born with down syndrome is just kind of a silly thing to compare this to and makes no sense. The argument is pretty much whether or not we, as humans should be making the decision to breed these animals ourselves because of the neurological issues they can potentially have.
I think you're missing the point OP is trying to make. This is not about equallizing the life of a snake to the life of a human. It's about comparing issues and the morality of breeding clearly defect animals because they look fancy or cute, and comparing it to how we would feel if we treated humans this way.
We do have laws that prohibit siblings to have children together to decrease the unnecessary suffering recessive diseases can cause. In some places it's also illegal to marry your first cousin. And many people that are carriers of serious recessive disorders often opt out of having biological children.
If people are unknowing of any recessive disorders they may carry and have a child with a disorder, then it's obviously not their fault. Neither can it be helped if they live in poverty with little to no access to information about recessive disorders. But I think that having a biological child when you know there's a high chance the child will be born with a severe disability that can shorten their lifespan greatly or leave them with chronic pain is very selfish, when there are options to adopt or get a sperm or egg donor so at least one of the parents can have a biological connection to the child while eliminating the chance of a child with that particular disease being born.
Personally, I don't really want children, but if I did, I'd go and have myself tested and possibly ask my partner to do the same. I had an aunt that died before I was born due to a very rare and very severe skin disorder (epidermolysis bullosa) that ran in my mothers family. She had the second most severe version of the disorder and like most people with it, she eventually developed skin cancer and died in her 40's. She suffered quite a lot throughout her life. (She had to be wrapped in bandages to protect her sensitive skin and her skin would often peel off in some places when the wrappings had to be changed. She couldn't eat solid foods because of the blisters in her mouth and throat. She couldn't walk and her fingers and toes curled inwards and her hands became useless when skin grew over them. It's quite a horrific disease.) While I might not be a carrier, and my mom might not be a carrier either, it's such a severe and painful condition that I'd not risk it.
We should treat animals with respect, and while we shouldn't treat them as if they are human, we should think twice about doing something to them we wouldn't do to our neighbors. We already ruined so many dogs in our ignorance, and I don't think we should strive to do the same to other animals.
If we wouldn't do it then why is it okay to do it to another living being was my point.
We know that EVERY spider is born with the wobble in some severity but what we don't know is how the spider wobble is effecting them internally... like a person with Parkinson's disease, their head tremors are a small part of how the disease presents itself that we can visually see but the disease is effecting them internally much worse. In fact, most people with Parkinson's disease die from injuries sustained by a fall because that neurological disease causes a defect in relaying messages that plan and control body movement... which seems to be an issue spider snake owners have experienced with their snakes at times of heightened awareness (feeding/stressful situations/etc)... I'm sorry but humans with neurological disorders can still eat, breed and live but they're going through Hell. Intentionally breeding animals with a defective gene just because it looks cool without really caring about the known effects of neurological diseases is sad.
@@noosins Shows what you know about breeding.... You cant force snakes to breed if you could id love to find out how.
I'm newer to keeping BP's so I'm not entirely sure where I stand yet on this issue, but very good points brought up. I think it is important to take into account the care history of the animals in question and whether poor care contributed to a more aggravated neurological issue. I also think it is extremely important to consider the breeders. A good breeder of any species, if they are dedicated to the health and preservation of the species, is going to breed only the best. I understand the argument of turning the spider BP's into something like the pug of the snake world, but just like dog breeders I think there are careless snake breeders and there are breeders that take care to only breed the best. Just my two cents, but this video made me consider things in a bit if a different light.
They clearly didn't watch any of goherpings video or even know him. I'd suggest watching it as this twists it so much.
When I got my first snake I originally was going to get a regular banana morph but then was shown a spider banana-which I ended up buying. No mention of his wobble or the possibility that it could get worse. Thankfully, he eats and functions pretty normal and has never skipped a meal. I think the problem is that beginners looking to get a snake can get sold these without knowing about the wobble. Seeing as I wasn’t told and know multiple people who have purchased them from expos without being told.
For ages the wobble was not even much of a talking point and now it is...... I don't know why its gotten "worse" or any of that out there. I love my Spiders and can speak of my animals that I have been breeding for years...... this seems to be a recent issue and generally people did know that spiders could wobble and to many it was not an issue. I love them still the same!
i today bought a spider knowing its genetics,i seen many videos,this one as well and still got it,i believe if it comes from a good breeder who knows their animals they wont sell you a really bad wobbling spider
@@mooniesama4550 but my question is, when they have the bad wobble, do all the babies in that clutch have a bad wobble, or could it just be 1 or a couple from the clutch? And if you do have a baby with a bad wobble, do breeders quit breeding that pair together? And what do you do with the babies with a bad wobble? Kill them? If so, seems cruel to breed and just dispose of the babies with a bad wobble. And can the wobble get worse over time?
@@calliew311 your questions are answered in the video. Did you not watch/listen to the video you're commenting on?
@@sallyviolet13 I guess I missed the part about the clutch. Yes I heard the part about not breeding the bad wobble pair, but this is one place, I wasn't referring to them. They know what they are doing, and are trying to breed healthy snakes. And I must've also missed what they do with the babies that are born with a bad wobble. Much of what I heard was that the wobble isn't usually that bad and most people prob won't even notice it.
I know with dog breeders, Chihuahuas, for example are bred to be as tiny as possible, but the akc standards are 3 to 6 pounds full grown, yet many breeders show off their 2 lb stud. That's actually a birth defect, to be that small. And although there are a lot of good breeders that don't advertise as teacup Chihuahuas ones that breed to be the closest to akc standards as they can, there will always be some breeders, that care about the money first, instead of the pups health. And if all or even most snake breeders retired breeding snakes that had a bad wobble or more likely produced bad wobble babies, then there wouldn't be enough Spider ball pythons out there to complain about and make a big deal out of.
I still don’t get why this is such a huge issue... In Austria they banned selling ANY REPTILES at expos and we’re still able to get pets. You’re just forced to actually do some research and find a store or breeder that you like, which helps minimize the risk of making an uninformed decision and getting a sick animal. I know that means sellers had to make huge changes in how they sell, but we all agree expos aren’t easy on the animals and I’d rather buy (and have bought) from a seller that cares about the animals anyway.
because everyone just goes to Hamm anyway ;)
Because some random white guy/gal with huge follower/viewer crying. Seriously the rest of the word don't care and spider BP are the most traded BP in my country. Same with Enigma geckos.
Mrs Calypso
Very true. I have to keep myself accountable when buying anything, let alone a live animal. Impulse purchases are risky. My parents made me physically make my guinea pig cage (took about a year) before I could even consider getting one. It's about patience. And when you're at an expo and there're all these cool things and it's on sale.... Etc. It's easy to get carried away
... you're sexy Mrs. Calypso
just sayin lol
random thought that i figured id blurt out there
tj jackson well thanks ;)
When he's talking about GoHerping, he clearly didn't watch the whole video, or even up to two minutes where he is saying "There is a ton of variation, some that have hardly any wobble and some that have serious wobble." It's the fact that all spiders have wobble and some DO have that extremely bad wobble. And Nerd himself has admitted to "Seeing it all". And with that information, are people still okay with breeding for looks over the animals welfare. As beautiful as a those snakes are(they are so goregous), I'd rather go for a morph that doesn't have the potential for a serious neurological issue.
You are making an incorrect argument, your argument is not based in facts, biologically speaking this snake is no different than a dog in that they do better in capacity, the spider might actually do better than the wild type ball python.
@@brennexcarroll3472 Incorrect. All of the spider pythons have a genetic trait that does cause wobble. The guy in the video did not watch the video about GoHerping and did not even attempt to learn where they were coming from. This breeder wants to breed and he admits he saw it all with the genetic issues of the spider gene. He admits it's a problem yet will continue to breed it. It cannot be bred out because it's genetic and will always have neurological issues.
@@novaangle2183 incorrect I've seen some with spider such as my bumblebee that has absolutely no wobble and a spider I have that has only a slight wobble with no other issue
I really appreciated your response to those videos. I'm currently researching all things ball python in preparation for my very first snake and those videos you referenced came up in my search. Yes, you're right in that seeing such extreme neurological deficits leaves a vivid impression, especially on someone new to the fancy. I have to admit, I was immediately adamant that I wouldn't consider any snake that I knew carried the spider gene. However, you make an interesting point when it comes to sample size. Given the sheer volume of snakes you produce as well as the complexity of gene combos created, one would think you and other large scale breeders would be on the ground floor of noticing if a particular morph regularly failed to thrive. As you said, if it was truly just "all about the money to be made" how much would you be spending just trying to get these snakes to a sellable weight when you factor in the extra manpower and special attention supposedly needed? It's true that once the ball starts rolling on bans, there's no real telling where it stops. I know you mentioned you don't have dogs but your point regarding the inability of certain breeds to even reproduce is spot on. However, as someone who shows her dogs, I can see the danger in opening up that door to public scrutiny and government oversight. Whether it's dogs or snakes, I think it's up to the purchaser to really do their own due diligence to determine what they feel is acceptable in terms of health, behavior, etc. I appreciate hearing your opinion on this matter as I said, all I had to previously go on were these videos of obviously severely affected snakes. Genetics is sometimes a crapshoot, as anyone in dog breeding can attest. Sometimes certain lines just don't work together and you never know until after the fact. From your videos, it is clear how much you love and value your animals and I sincerely doubt a man who cares that deeply for his snakes would knowingly perpetuate a trait that would not only hurts the species, but the very fancy that he's trying so hard to educate, just to make a couple bucks. Please keep up with your videos, tell Donny he's doing a great job, and thank you so much for helping balance out my own budding education.
I was a rat breeder some years ago (I had to stop because of health issues) and yes, what you're saying about "Genetics is sometimes a crapshoot [...] Sometimes certain lines just don't work together and you never know until after the fact". That's exactly that! As rats tend to live very few years, you can see the problems to come very early (compared to other species) but stil, you can't see the problems until their 8/10 months (in the worth cases) or so and it's enough to wreckball an entire breedline! And that, even if you do select the parents with a lot of care about their health history, mental and emotional but also genetics! and that's the problem with complete outbreeding, it's a lottery! You don't know what you're getting out of it and how the genes and lines will interact with each others! The only thing you can do is to try while accepting and assuming the fact that you can do errors and you're not God (as much as I don't believe in it), you're not allseeing, you can't know before hand what will happen! And yes, you have a responsibility toward the animals you breed and care for but also as a breeder for the clients buying from you, to assure them a healthy animal! But you still can't know for sure!
All that to say: As a breeder, you have the responsibility to know which breed can cause issues for the comfort of the animal and to avoid them. Let's talk about the "Harley" gene in rats. It's a beautiful gene which impacts the hair of the rat in a way that it seems translucide with a shine similar to silk. Why? Because the hair is hollow inside, which makes the light "resonate" into it before going into our eyes! Okay, great stuff, the phenotype is incredible! BUT! The problem of this gene is that as a baby, during their growth, they have like a second layer of skin who doesn't grow as fast as the rest of the body and so, the skin can wrap around a tail, a finger, a leg or worse and cut it off! And so, you don't know what will happen, how the baby will grow and if he will even survive! And they tend to have dwarfism too. Probably because of this second skin by the way!!
As a breeder, would I take the risk? Knowing what it means? Even if they're in good health once they're adult and they're fully grown?! Absolutly not! I would never breed this gene because of that and I was very severe about that because of the incomfort for the animal!
Also, the rats (not peculiar breed) tend to be sensibles to neurological issues, respiratory issues, tumors and all that. If a breed would push that to a severe case, I would never breed those either! Because it's detrimental to the animal! But one indivudal in a clutch isn't, to me, a breed problem. It just happens.
I don't know enough about snakes to have a real voice on the matter of Spiders BP but I said my ethic toward breeding in general anyway :shrug:
It's actually kind if funny how you claim its a rarity but coincidentally all the pet tubers have a severe case? I wonder how that happened :/
I am clearly seeing some severe animals in their videos for sure...if I was hatching snakes like that on a regular basis I would throw in the towel. Those snakes are a bit shocking to say the least. My Spider combos I produced and they have always just been here.
@@NewEnglandReptile i do respect you because you started most of the genes we know today, but maybe there is something wrong with specific breeders causing a higher chance of them to be like that? I'm not one to point the finger and say " All spiders are bad they should be banned. " I personally own a cinnamon HGW. And though people claim wobble ive seen no problems. The only one I have is spider though. My question is why are these happening and how can we fix it. Obviously it doesn't need to be banned, but maybe the gene should at least be looked at more closely.
Frostbite0w0 exactly!!! What sucks is you get these guys who are passionate and a lifetime of knowledge but I wish they would acknowledge that there is something to it, both side are extreme..... where’s the middle balance???
@@mirandaclapp5362 there is a difference between learning and being educated by time and making the same mistake for years.
Frostbite0w0 absolutely agree
I feel in love with a killer queen bee... didnt buy them however... I view spiders as the pugs of the snake world....
I dont think they should be bred at mass
I don't think ANYONE SHOULD BREED IRRESPONSIBLY.
Snake Dipper Pines lmao aw poor pugs
They're even worse than pugs, because you can at least breed or outcross pugs back to their original, less fucked up form(and lots of breeders are doing this, retromops are awesome).
You can't do that with spider balls. The defect is embedded in the morph.
@@hamneggwich interesting knowledge.
You imbecile
Often times, I enjoy watching the videos that come from this channel, but to say that I was a bit disappointed in this one is a bit accurate. Especially when I read some of the responses the content creator and some of the community gave...it was pretty harsh, especially when GoHerping seemed to actually respond to this video with a well-thought out response that reflected contemplation on the pro-spider side of things. I didn't think the video really answered any of the questions I had regarding the controversy, and it seemed as if a lot of what GoHerping said throughout his entire content wasn't touched upon, only a minute bit covered. Seems like there's a bit of a cult of personality, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing if followers don't get toxic...unfortunately, it seems more than a few watchers (notice I'm not saying all, since quite a few people saw this video) have become rather toxic if someone expresses their opinion and it's leaning more towards the other side of the argument. That certainly won't get the debate going anywhere but frustrating people, on both sides.
I notice it’s breeders who say that corkscrewing is rare, when neurological defects in reptiles are known to get worse over time :/
Not really. I seen a 10 y/o bumblebee a few months ago and it was perfectly fine. You couldn’t tell it had a wobble.
Lord, just because Kevin breeds a lot of snakes doesn’t mean everyone should breed spiders
No one should breed or even own anything unless they know what there doing and how to do it that goes for all animals , guns , phones etc
I don't think anyone said everyone should breed spiders. But the man who discovered the morph is the man who knows more about this gene then these kids who are bashing the masters in the reptile field
@@youdontknowme6827 Go sit down and watch GoHerping's video, he never said the morph should end, he said he personally doesn't like the morph because of the inherent risk of neurological issues. There are breeders that breed spider balls responsibly and remove sever "wobble" from their breeding stock, while there are others who just don't care. This issue is something that is overarching in the pet trade as a whole, some breeders are responsible and take pride in the animals they produce, while others see every animal as $$$.
Don't buy from DISREPUTABLE BREEDERS! Period. Ban DISREPUTABLE BREEDERS! Not the morph itself.
@@MrWarren1991 I don't understand why you tagged me in your comment.
Even if the chance for neurological problems is small, it's still much higher then other genomes. And why are they bred? Why take the chance at all? Because "oooh pretty, cute defective wobble UWU"? I'd exchange beauty/cutness for the quality of my snake's life to be higher anyday.
I'm not saying you can't own one if it's a rescue, I just don't see why people NEED to breed a morph with a higher chance of having a neurologic disorder.
I mean let's be honest that'd be like me if I started breeding a dog with a gene deformity where it's legs don't work right because "Aww, it's stumble is so cute, it can barely walk 5 feet! ^0^"
Also, every spider is born with the issue, it's just more severe in some cases, but it's always there. It is GUARANTEED to pass down severly one day or another. Just not breeding the snakes would eliminate the issue altogether.
But oh yeah, I forgot, then breeders won't be able to drain the pockets of poor suckers who don't know the damage done to the snakes genes. I mean, humans have always made bank off the suffering of others, whats new, why am I suprised?
Exactly...what is actually lost by eradicating the spider ball python gene? Besides a human's sick enjoyment of the "cute" head wobble, snake pain and suffering, and oh...money from breeders' pockets. Their only REAL "argument" is the slippery slope fallacy...Which is called a fallacy for a reason and is always the last ditch, desperate attempt when someone has no solid ground to stand on.
But no....let's not prevent the 100% unnecessary and avoidable suffering of countless animals, (beloved pets that these people are supposed to care about), because someday, someone MIGHT try to ban another animal (or I guess kill all autistic people or whatever)...and I guess agreeing to this particular, specific, very SINGULAR ban of spiders...means we automatically lose all power and cannot protest nor prevent any further attempts to ban anything else?? (Like how apparently giving gay people the ability to marry is going to result in people getting to marry dogs, etc.)
Point is: preventable and unnecessary suffering of animals that are purposefully bred to suffer is bad, and if you want to argue for it you better do WAY better than the slippery slope fallacy.
Have you studied this!!????
@@sandysgrandgirlssandysswee2492 We all know you haven't.
More research needs to be done. That's the only real way to settle this issue, I've seen a couple youtubers post these 'extreme' examples and no clear history. Is the husbandry the issue or the gene? I've watched many different breeder channels where they show many different snakes. Most have the spider gene in them and I've not noticed any wobble in the vast majority. Not videos showing exclusively spider morphs but just all kinds of morphs were they're not defending either side of the argument just showing off a collection. Yes this is an issue and it does need addressing but it also needs a lot of research before blanket statements can be made.
Its only higher if someone is actually breeding the defect into the snake.
"It could produce normal "normalish" spiders." Okay.... U take that risk!
The first ball python I fell in love with was a bumblebee. Only thing wrong with him was he was grumpy and hissy.
Since then I've heard the good, the bad, and the ugly about the spider gene. I've handled spider morphs that had visual motor issues, and I've seen spiders with very little to no noticeable issues. BUT I've never seen an UNHEALTHY spider. Every spider I've seen had healthy body weight, healthy skin, no stuck shed, no visible injuries from "smacking their face into the glass wall when miss the rodent trying to feed" as many people described the gene to do.
What bothers me is that the spider gene is the one getting so much of a bad rep when there are other genes in ball pythons and other species that also have negative affects on the snake. Classic example is the desert (which you discussed), champagne, super cinnamon, and super black pastel. All which are known for kinking, as well as other health defects that in my opinion are more devastating to the animal than the wobble of the spider gene.
Anyway. That's my 2-bits about it. I love how you presented it, and showed several of your own spider ball pythons. That spider axanthic coralglow is GORGEOUS!! And clearly, if the spider gene had such a negative affect on the animals they would not be as large and healthy looking as we can clearly see in this video.
Sorry I'm having to play catch-up on an old video. But you have A LOT of videos to watch through. Keep up the good work. Hope to see you at Tinley one of these days.
I lost so much respect for NERD with the way they interacted with GoHerping in the comments, its embarrassing to see a channel I once Idolized lose its shit so hard in the name of unethical breeding.
Sato Batchelor dude you need to see what his followers said about Brian. It’s despicable.
If NERD was in the practice of unethical breeding, they would have a lot snakes with problems.
Sato Batchelor then go watch Goherping
Im sure NERD especially Kevin arent embarrassed at all so why are you. Either you stand behind kevin and what he says who has decades of knowledge and experience. Or you stand behind this go herping kid and if thats the case then bye I'm sure you wont be missed.
There was nothing wrong with him confronting goherping about his video that kid only showed the worst snakes and saying all of them are like that and it's not the case he needs to educate himself
Honestly the only reasons I heard in 'support' of chancing neurological issues is because they appeal to you and they're important to you. It sounds like you're placing your own needs/wants over those of snakes potentionally having a harder life.
You don't have to cull them or get rid of them. Just...stop breeding them.
you absolutely missed the point then, the spider gene is a natural morph therefore the wobble is not an issue considering the first wild import was thriving. I've owned 1 myself and interacted with 3 in total 2 of which had no wobble at all the 3rd barely had any wobble at all, the wobble was so minor that i didn't notice it the first time i held him.
Literally being born runs the risk of neurological issues in every species that's part of that genetic lottery called life I've seen kittens from the same litter one had serious balance issues the rest of them just fine it sucks but that's literally genetics
You sound as if you are biased without a true educated answer.
I have 2 spiders, one is completely normal until she’s fed where she has a bit of a wobble, the other, she does have a bit of wobble but when I touch her head, she doesn’t ball up, she tenses, and throws herself around, then she’s fine, but when I hold her she doesn’t grip me and gets scared when I hold her... so they can really vary in the neurological issues.
I have a lot of respect for people like Kevin. His is as original as it gets. So humble that he’s the freaking God father of reptiles and no one even knows. Old school cat, doesn’t care what people think only cares about what he knows. These new guys can learn alot from this guy. Anyone that makes videos just to show off their big snakes are hiding a secret lol
What is more important, beautiful “living art” you can make or the possibility of a living animal suffering when it was preventable.
To randomly extrapolate way farther off the mark than you meant it... lol
this is why I refuse to have kids on a personal front and, on the reptile front, sometimes hesitate to want to breed any snakes... who would want to bring something you love into the sick shithole of a world?
Should people with Tourette's syndrome or born with a minor physical anomaly like one leg slightly longer than the other or Scoliosis not be able to have children? As with the spider gene (witch I personally have) can feed themselves, take care of themselves, and be productive members of society. People always want to tell everyone how they should live their lives it's really ridiculous. I suggest you educate yourself before jumping on the elitist bandwagon.
I definitely have hatched way weirder animals from other morphs.
You call it preventable, can there be issues with any morph, any clutch, any snake? Yes. Should all morphs be banned cause there's a chance...?
YOU LITERALLY MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING EVERYONE SAID ABOUT THE *EXPO* "BAN"
you say that but give no example of what you're claiming.
John Fowler gottem
John Fowler If you actually want an elaboration in the future, it really helps to tag the person- it increases the chance of them actually seeing your comment- just saying💁😜 (i dont have an opinion on the matter, cause i havent done enough research on it yet. But just saying she cant read minds or see the future, so she could not know you where going to be here and that you would want more info, and when you dont even tag her- it maybe indicates you maybe have made up your mind and dont really want an answere. That in turn just reads like you may be, bitching✌️)
Ps. 3. Language, no glasses- good luck reading that- hope it made sense😂💁
@@l0ckmanjohn If you care so much do your own research on the EXPO Ban. Just Say-n.
28:38 "So sometimes they could manifest by long-term having some kind of health consequence which ultimately could manifest itself as a motor skill problem AND IF WE ALREADY HAVE AN ANIMAL WITH A PROPENSITY TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ITS MOTOR SKILLS and then we put some kind of stress on the animal's life, maybe it's going to manifest that motor skill issue, it's going to aggravate it and make it more severe.”
I absolutely agree with the thought process behind the above statement, additional variables making a problem more prominent, but based on your own words, I ask: why breed an animal with a propensity to have a problem with its motor skills?
If there are plenty of morphs without a “motor skills” (neurological) problem, why not breed them instead?
“Best argument for spider morph”
“KeViN wAs ThE fIrSt EvEr!”
The guy behind the camera is so arrogant and annoying. Putting down a creator because of her subscriber count? It's irrelevant.This whole controversy is about responsible breeding, so talk about that. The main point of this video could have been covered in less than 10 minutes...the rest is fluff.
whiterexy789 like how elitist can you get. invalidating another persons opinion because of their age and sub count and the fact that they don’t mill breed snakes? who’s the real immature one here lmao
The fact is both channels used Brian barczyk name to gain subs and views it had very little to do with the Gene it was all for popularity. It's been proven anybody that uses Brian's name in the title of a video the view count explodes and so does the sub count. Educate your selfs and get to actually know Kevin and Brian because they are both amazing individuals
Yeah. The information is important for people to make up their minds, but comments like “does Brian do dishes” is very unprofessional. I am not in the market for ball pythons, but I sure as shit wouldn’t buy one from these guys.
Heidi Christensen i can’t believe this has become “how old are they, do they have 2000 snakes, and how many subs do they have”. like it’s irrelevant. they talk so long about so little.
@@heidichristensen7919 lol you obviously know nothing about Kevin or his relationship with Brian they are pretty damn good friends. It was a jab made jokingly so ya may wanna remove that stick that's sideways up your ass.
Dude, I'm 8 minutes in and there is no info? I don't give a damn about who breed the first what. If you addressing the spider wobble, address it, with logic and fact, not authoritarian arguments.You could have cut the first 8 minutes and we'd still know he breeds tons of spiders, was the first to discover it etc.
The point was that you DO GET a fair number with the "extreme" wobble problems, probably because of bad breeders, but the issue is associated with the spider gene. It's not a random mutation that you can't accommodate for. So far you have confirmed this.
Are you a good breeder? Yes. Is that enough to stop animals being breed with severe problems? No. Thanks for confirming that.
The issue was also about animal welfare. Not survival, and not survival in the "wild" because we know these animals aren't going to be in the wild. Welfare is not limited to ability to breed and eat. It's about stress and comfort. I feel it should be fairly clear that it is HIGHLY likely balance issues will cause the animal stress.
The only videos defending the breeding of this gene are being made by people making lots of money from it. If you want the truth - look to someone who isn't making any money from them.
@@Vanessa_Simone_In_Toronto @raebla I'm not making money from them, so I'll tell you the truth: you and raebla seemingly know nothing about genetics, animal welfare, freedom, or breeding, based on your comments.
1) Is the spider gene at fault? No. Animals with or without the spider gene can have or not have wobble. Is it a gene possibly on the same chromosome and so segregates at a higher probability with the spider gene? Probably. But as with all linked genes, proper backcrossing will single it out. After all, you see that already in spider lines that have no problems---which is the large majority.
2) Is this an animal wellfare issue? No. The animals are not in distress. They eat, breed, and function no worst than wildtypes in primary "daily care" tasks. If you scored them on ADLs like a person, they would not even miss a single one, and for a person, you need to fail 2 out of 5 ADLs to be disabled. The worst lines with a double dosage of the wobble gene are an exception, but they are also an exception in the breeding and very few animals get that bad--which raises the question of how did they get sold when they were that bad? What other environmental factors could mimic or exacerbate the wobble phenotype?
3) The arrogance of trying to take people's freedom, while proclaiming that you alone know what is a "proper" animal that gets to live, and what is not a "proper" animal, is breathtaking. How can there be such a lack of self awareness in this discussion? You don't even understand basic genetics, so how can you be an arbiter of what should or should not be bred? You don't even know the percentage population rates that demonstrate wobble, and don't realize there is no problem in the vast majority. Ergo, you don't even have the basic fundamental underpinnings to know what is at fault for the wobble to begin with.
Trying to hurt people because of a level of ignorance so large it is to the point you don't even realize you are ignorant, is shameful in my view. No better than the legislators that proposed the defeated pet regulation law in New Hampshire.
Great insight!!!!!! @@SmartassEyebrows
Ok, so my video sucks according to you. We were just trying to make a video addressing points at hand and my thoughts. As far as wasting 8 minutes of your life to verify who I am and why my opinion matters.... some people do not know me, NERD or any of that and Donny was just trying to create a foundation. I think you feel that I am addressing some script or exact questions...... I was giving my insight and you telling me I was doing things wrong is confusing. I do not think that Spider balls suffer when kept as pets, more importantly kept correctly. Other than that go at it....... I see that you have not watched many of my videos regarding the minds of these animals and how to understand them. I do many videos on this and likely have better insight into the mind of reptiles than most.
@@SmartassEyebrows ROASTED that B****!
Don’t you love the irony of the title?
I had no idea, i had a terrible thought about this morph but I'm so glad you guys brought this to life
*light
As a disabled person, I could still survive as a homeless person, for a while, but it'd be harder for me with my disability. My disability is caused by a genetic disorder that was passed down to me by my mother, and her by my grandmother etc. I would 100% never buy a spider or support a breeder by buying another line of snakes that also breeds spiders. Just like I wouldn't support a dog breeder who breeds dogs with conditions like epilepsy or short faced dogs. It should be stopped for the good of all of the spiders out there, just like the whole of the pug breed, or the english or french bull terriers.
My god, it's only being supported by snake breeders because they're defending the product that they've got stocked on their websites etc.
He literally calls the first guy talking a manager, then corrects himself by saying SALES manager. Obviously a "sales manager" for a company that sells spiders is going to support it. The companies who pump out booze and cigarettes don't tell the truth, so why are so many of the people supporting the breed making videos about this when we're all seeing through it. Read the damn comments!
I was thinking the exact same thing. I'm also disabled and practice the same thing of refusing to buy or support a breeder of animals that have animals with disabilities just to be cute or cool.
Is this a meme? If it's not a meme then shouldn't you be against your own birth because your mom knew that you would also get the disability and does that mean you will never have your own children due to the disability? If you do, doesn't that also promote the breeding of a disorder and didn't your relatives also promote it? Asking for a friend :p
@@JohnDoe-vm6cw My mum didn't know she had the condition, neither did my grandmother. They weren't diagnosed.
@@JohnDoe-vm6cw Also, yes, I'm not having children due to not wanting to pass the defect on and the condition is so bad for me that I wouldn't get through the pregnancy/birth without many issues. Also because I couldn't physically keep up with caring for my own children. I plan on hopefully adopting children who are a little older in the future.
Lawren Haggerty
You're amazing. Thanks for your comments. I think many people get selfish and risk the lives of their children. I also want to adopt because I don't want to pass on any genetic mental health issues.
People are allowed to have opinions on spider. It's reasonable for the neuro issues to be a turn off to people.
Peter mercil It’s not acceptable to want to ban the production of a perfectly healthy combination though.
@@NewEnglandReptile anybody with half a brain knows there is no mechanism in the industry to "ban" anything. Take click bait titles for what they are. Again, its reasonable for people to have ethical concerns about spiders. I personally don't, but thats just me
Never said they did not!
@@Sweeeetpeaches69 what?
It’s basically do in the morph a favor by not being born.
I have a spider that's just like the one shown in the video they watched. He holds his head completely upside down making it difficult for him to eat because he cant hold his head steady enough to strike and hit the mouse. I have 4 other BPs and have never seen anything so bizarre. He was actually given to me by his old owner because she couldn't get him to eat. Hes doing well now but I feel like if u know that the gene has the possibility of such bad neurological issues you shouldn't continue breeding them. I love the spider morph and have a Bumblebee that's totally normal. So I know it's really just the luck of the draw but after seeing how bad it can be I'm just not sure if ppl should continue breeding them.
I have several spiders in my collection. One with serious wobble and corkscrewing. Sometimes she will actually be sitting there with her head upside down. But all of them including the one with the worst wobble live a completely quality life and are actually are some of the best feeders in my collection. Sometimes it does takes a couple trys for them to get the rat and maybe the worst one I have couldn't survive in the wild but she doesn't live in the wild and never will. As long as the snakes can live a quality life I see nothing wrong with the gene. I think sometimes people see one extreme example or have read about it being so terrible and that's enough to turn them off. Keep them coming Kevin I personally like them!
I would really love if there are statistics on the 'wobble' with regards to the spider morph. I just want a study so I can see some numbers.
When a morph has these types of neurological issues in their GENETICS, it’s not ethical, moral or bloody sensible to breed them. We’re already fighting against this in the dog breeding world, goodness knows we don’t need snake breeders doing the same crap.
Honestly, people are so upset by puppy mills, but are okay with this? Suddenly it’s “morally grey”?
Any responsible snake breeder will say NOT to do this, and NOT to buy a spider morph.
You do realize, the breeders don't have some lab where they make these "morphs" they are found in the wild and occur naturally, inwhich breeders such as Kevin pay thousands upon thousands to import and preserve, in which a breeder takes "said naturally developed morph" and mates it with another "said naturally developed morph" to create a designer morph, which one may say in the wild they'd have like less that 1% to meet and breed in the wild, but those are the same odds for the lottery and people win that all the time. Final thought: Being any kind of breeder whether its reptiles or dogs n cats, are NOT the same thing as those that run puppy mills and illegal operations like that, and in most cases regulation fuels the black market which in turn gives more reason for puppy mills and such a reason to exists. Have a nice day =P
@@pentatonic7311 They sure aren't made in a lab, but selective breeding isn't much different. You find genes you want, and produce them. Money is, to my mind, no excuse for continuing immoral practices in which disabled members are taken from the wild and bred to increase the disability.
stargatedalek yup, bps in general are awesome pets, I quite agree. I’m all for breeding healthy, pretty bps; it’s breeding animals with genetic disorders that I object to. With dogs, I was mainly referring to the issues with some breeders promoting Brachycephalic dogs, and how responsible breeders usually favour healthy retro breeds, such as retropugs.
You guys really need a hobby! Besides thinking you know stuff you don't!
@@sandysgrandgirlssandysswee2492 🤯🤯🤯 This is our hobby dipshit. Open your fucking eyes and get the hint that you are the one that doesn't know shit. You have attacked everyone here and not offered one bit of info that is actually helpful in resolving this problem.
Kevin is the grand wizard of breeding insanely hypnotic like beautiful animals
I've just been reading through a lot of these comments and I think that only the spiders with a very low wobble should be bred and before selling them the customer should be aknowlaged of the problem. I would say that we shouldn't breed them at all but I don't think the permanent ban on spiders is happening anytime soon. So at least tell your customer about the wobble before selling it.
The problem is the chain store breeders. Working at a pet store nearly all the spiders I got in had head wobble and had major problems and then they give it to my store and now I have to deal with it. Those ones are the problem. You guys are doing the responsible breeding where the others are not.
Exactly the rescues these people got could of been bargain bin pet store ones that weren't properly cared for or bred by not good breeders who produced misincubated janky babies that then got mistreated by the uninformed person they sold it to cause they werent a good breeder
And where did those irresponsible spider breeders get their breeder animals from?
To me it’s more the fact Brian is claiming all these snakes can live a good life and are just like any other python that upset me the most. I’ve seen some terrible spider balls who suffer so much, from biting themselves to almost drowning and yeah you can say “there’s a low chance of that” But there’s still a CHANCE. All because it “looks pretty” he’s showing them under a good light just to make money and it’s terrible
If you're not ok with a snake with defects, don't own any animals. There's always that chance, regardless of what genes, species, of family that has or belongs to.
@@TheDreadedJuggernaut that's not the point of the argument against spiders. What is is that these breeders are propagating a potentially serious and harmful gene because they think it's cool. You should not create animals with health probelms on purpose, period.
@@thescrimble It's not a serious and harmful gene though, because most spiders do not have those health issues. People breed pitbulls all the time, and those ALWAYS end up with health issues because of their face structure. It's not a discussion anymore anyways, since they've been banned among the entire reptile community.
@@TheDreadedJuggernaut
They shouldn't breed dogs like that either, dumbass.
It's funny that you actually cannot comprehend anyone having any sort of compassion with an animal.
So that means we should stop breeding ALL animals.. because defects can happen with any of them. The chances of this happening is extremely low. I had a spider with a bad wobble.. and she was the healthiest out of all of them. I have had a few spiders without issues. Take this breeder for example.. he has bred MANY of these.. but has not had any major issues.
My spider ball python eats great. I never had a problem with him eating & the wobble only lasted two months after he hatched & then stopped. He's about 7months now & doing perfect without wobbling & eats just fine. You can't believe everything amateurs say, so just leave it to the professionals to handle these types of animals. Kevin is incredible with what he does. Keep up the good work bud!!
This video plus Clint's reptiles was very informative. I would consider having spider ball combo of some sort but I don't think I would consider breeding them until I had experience
It’s amazing how people are so determined to gain money by selling a snake with a pretty pattern, they have the audacity to determine what is an acceptable or non acceptable amount of neurological defect for the snake to have for all of it’s life, “oh it’s just a few that can’t eat, move or climb, just a few, about 5%, don’t worry” is it really worth it? Gaining all that money and defending it by saying “there’s a low risk”?
G L The difference with dog breeds is that responsible breeders are trying to lower the chances of these genetic defects coming to life, if they didn't we wouldn't have OFA and all the other genetic health screenings that breeders go through before breeding their dogs. The main difference is that most good breeders won't breed a dog with defects or bad scores while they continue to breed and argue for poorly bred Spiders without even TRYING to fix the wobble, only defending the condition by bashing well made arguments with "I've done this longer than they've been alive", news flash, just because you've done it for 20 years doesn't mean the new kid on the block can't do it better. (That last part is in no way a target at you, I'm sure you're a fine person). But what is concerning for me is that he isn't even trying to fix the wobble, breed in better bloodlines, healthier morphs, thats how we fixed a lot of dog breeds, by breeding in better stock to fill in the shortfalls. If that doesn't work, admit the morph is lost and stop breeding it.
Omg LISTEN CLOSE YOUR BIG MOUTH FOR A SECOND !He didn't say that at all , boy y'all just hear exactly what you want to !
@@sandysgrandgirlssandysswee2492 Please Sandy... I'm dying to hear what he DID say XD Im sure its along the lines of continuing selling spider balls for personal gain, including keeping them because he likes them, which in turn leads to the 5% that cant eat move or climb. Ignorance
@@Nick-dx9xh your a fucking idiot, almost all of the severe cases are a result of external factors like neglect worsening the internal factors. Like the wobble. All these severe cases on RUclips are almost all neglected animals.
Exactly my point.
One thing that drove me and i know a lot of people from the mainstream reptile community is the massive ego, petty, macho complex that many keepers & breeders display
.... Its like how are you gonna be that so far into your own ego that you play on negative petty things like who has a bigger collection or the " i know more than thou" mentality. Some things never change 😂😂😂
Classic liberalism. Ignore facts hard work and truth to serve your own emotional purpose. What about the ego on that GoHerping kid? He I am, 15 years old, my brain isn't even fully developed, and I am going to blame a GENE instead of the untrustworthy person for this one extreme outlier of spider ball pythons. That kid is misguided.
And yet probably smarter than you. That's gotta hurt.
Ah yes, acting disrespectful because someone is younger/more inexperienced and has a different opinion, but shows respect. Fuck liberals!
Yes, I suppose I got a little heated. I should not have called him an idiot. I suppose that is beneath me. I apologize. I edited my original comment.
Kevin is about as far away from an ego maniac as you can get. He is a down to earth humble guy. I love when people talk shit when they know nothing of the man. Like the fact he loves animals so much he is a vegan he has free range animals on his property in plaistow NH.
"I never see this snakes head wobble" while the snakes head is clearly wobbling
Between this, clints videos, and Olympus reptiles' video on the subject, I am convinced that while wobble should be unnecessary, husbandry and smart (or not) breeding practices are the main factors in severity of wobble and that the worst combo is bad husbandry and stupid breeding practices.
Ok but you never disputed what everyone else said that agrees that spiders shouldnt be bred. Nor have you disputed the videos where the spiders cannot function
Um that's all he did dumbass there is nothing wrong with 99.9 percent of the spider ball pythons out there. I hate stupid people who love to hate on successful people. How many ball pythons do you own how long have you been keeping them I'm gonna guess not as long as I or Kevin or alot of intelligent people on here.
DVL Exotics
*Kevin or me
Speaking of "intelligent"
@@MrXiaoqiao its the internet fuckstick im not here for a goddamn spelling or grammar test im not doing a college entrance exam. So in saying that ill write how ever spell how ever i want. Hell i dont even use punctuation 99% of the time so how bout you just go fuck off somewhere professor fuckstick.
@@dvlexotics2177 What a great way to convince people to do business with you in the future.
@@xJasmineKitty I'm not worried about customers I have plenty of repeat business. I treat them just fine don't you worry about it. And I deal with intelligent people that do their research.
You're still saying that it doesn't matter if they are neurologically damaged because they look cool and you think the wobble is cute.
That is not at all what he said! That's what's wrong with y'all your so busy talking shit you don't listen!!!!!he said it don't change or hinder them or make their quality of life any worse!!!! LISTEN
@@sandysgrandgirlssandysswee2492 BUT IT DOES!!!!! YOUR IGNORANCE IS HIGH LOL XD
@@sandysgrandgirlssandysswee2492 Yea cuz not having any sense of direction isn't a hindrance at all...
@@Ironislander4302 not for a pet. It won't die from it
@@Nick-dx9xh they still have livable comfortable lives and really aren't even stressed in result of the wobble
I saw a bumblebee ball python at a reptile expo and fell in love. I told myself one day I would get one, it was my dream morph. I was so disappointed to learn that the spider gene came with the wobble and that bumblebee was part of that.
I was tempted to get one anyway even knowing of the wobble. I thought if I could get one with a mild wobble it wouldn’t be too bad. But now I’ve learned that it can get worse with age and stress. To me it’s not worth the extra money to have an animal with a poorer quality of life potentially just because it looks pretty.
I bet if the spider gene resulted in an ugly animal no one would be trying to justify it. It’s just because they’re pretty.
I decided to get a normal because I didn’t like any other morph enough to spend hundreds lol. But she has no wobble and she’s healthy and that’s all that matters to me.
Hey Kevin and crew.my first comment I have ever left on RUclips i have watched Brian and many other helping channels for years. I felt the need to let you know I have had 4 spiders out of the many ball pythons I have kept and currently have 2 the best pets I have ever had. I did have one bumblebee that had a "wobble" but no where close to the ones they showed in the videos. So I do believe its the way they are kept and raised.
With that said I want you guys to know that I love you guys and enjoy your videos up.
not to throw jabs at other breeders but I think it says a lot that Kevin is actually very involved in everything that goes on at NERD
Well I hope so it is his business
I do it alll!!!!!!!!
New England Reptile Distributors hi wow i just shit my pants
Nahhh... i'm just like you guys! @@emily-hv3gi
@@emily-hv3gi Kevin is a very down to earth very humble dude. A real animal lover and somebody I've looked up to as a mentor sense the purchase of my first ball python. And we're talking many decades, fortunately I had the advantage of living in the same state as Kevin so having a pioneer of the hobby local was a huge advantage for me.
Here's my two bits worth - I've never kept a snake of any sort, but I understand basic genetics and the fact that the ban is ONLY AT EXPOS. The gene for the spider pattern is on the same chromosome as the gene for the wobble, making it virtually impossible to breed the wobble out of a spider.
The major issue here is the ethics of breeding an animal that might potentially have a severe disability that affects its quality of life.
There are so many examples of similar things, from cinnamon ball pythons and kinks, short faced dogs and rabbits with respiratory problems, flowerhorn fish with shortened lifespans, and extreme cases like Manx cats and the lethal double dominant gene combination that makes kittens stillborn.
If these animals are suffering or have a chance of producing disabled or even stillborn offspring in some cases, then why create more? If two people who want kids both test positive for carrying something like Tay-Sachs or Cystic Fibrosis, then is it ethical to bring such a child into this world?
If you love your animals, please be careful and don't create something that is just going to suffer and/or possibly die young.
It is possible that the spider eats better than the wild type, the spider is like a dog, it basically does better in captivity than a "normal" one
You could be doing a lot more to get views and to make money. You're responsible for creating a lot of morphs in your breeding projects.
However, you clearly don't do things just to get views. I've seen you argue with Donny in other videos about not wanting to do things just for views. You respect your animals and you respect the privilege to be able to keep them. I believe seeing the bad rap this morph has shocked you (Kevin) and made you a little speechless and so you may not have come across as confident in the video which may have hurt the point you were trying to make. I saw through that and understand that you were just kind of flabbergasted though.
Spider ball pythons can thrive just like any other ball python as long as their husbandry needs and care requirements are met. The same is true for any ball python though. Normal ball pythons can carry the wobble defect as well, but the defect is triggered and made more apparent when the snakes are stressed. So a snake properly cared for will not "suffer" from wobble, severe cases excepted of course. I own a spider ball python; she eats, sleeps and sheds just like my pinstripe ball python. They're both healthy, and the pinstripe is actually a fussier eater than the spider.
Point is, I trust Kevin when he says that he wouldn't breed spider ball pythons if he believed it was an issue. His spiders all eat and function. Stressed ball pythons won't eat. I trust Kevin's integrity and respect for animals. That, combined with my own experience, lots of research and word from many different breeders (who can and do breed other morphs and wouldn't lose money without spider) confirm, in my mind, that it isn't unethical to breed spider ball pythons. I believe that given the number of spiders Kevin/Nerd have bred, they would be among the ones against spider ball pythons if the issue was so detrimental.
So, Kevin, NERD, keep doing what you're doing. You're awesome and I support you. :)
Hell, I'm in NC and I think we need to focus much more on how we can prevent some of these people from breeding first....scary.
Stop
I think that normally we all have a bias, I always mention that my vlog is from my emotions, my view point. I knew Kev was the only person that could bring information that had the most experience and knowledge behind it. Honestly I am shocked that people put so much credit into someone that has one or two spiders and has developed a bias without having hardly any experience. Although I certainly do not have the experiencer that Kev has with them. We have probably produced well over a thousand spiders and combos. But again, I talk with bias and emotion. I can not tell you how happy I am that Kevin did this video and I truly think this will change a lot of peoples minds that had been swayed by the on slot of negative videos about the spider gene. Thank you Kevin and this product lion and edit was SPOT ON!!!
BOOM, the man has Spoken!!!!!!!!! I was getting tired of the bashing and saying you just have them because of the MONEY!!! You had tons of Deserts and then you didn't... because they SUCK! Just needed to get this out there so people can see the other side!
Thank yoU! @@brendalee2376
Brian Barczyk You know more about reptiles than 99% of the keepers on this platform. Yours are a testament to just how influential a RUclips video can be. The videos we watched and were referenced in this video were designed to be an influencer. GoHerping used your name for hits and showed an extreme example and presented it as common. While I respect CS Royals, I think she too has misrepresented the gene, albeit with slightly more professionalism. I would love to see you invite both of them to see your collection so they can witness the magnitude of experience someone like yourself or Kevin or Justin or Bob bring to trade. See if they are as open minded as they profess. Maybe they will rebut themselves in their next video.
You both are masters in snakes. I am glad that this industry has both of you. I used to have a nice little collection (100plus) but I became ill and had to get rid of them. Watching both of your compassion and knowledge for snakes has taught me so much. Once I have my transplant I am seriously considering getting back into it. LOVE both of you!!!
That’s the sad thing about all of this.
I know nothing of the morphs or anything when it comes to snakes, I was shocked to hear about the spider gene HOWEVER I looked into it before coming to a conclusion for a reason.
Breeders are having to come together to defend a gene that’s been around for ages, and no one has bothered to look into the genes before making rash decisions. It’s a great thing that we have breeders like Brain, Kevin, and many others to try and keep it going, ultimately you still shouldn’t have to though.
I personally would rather years of experience telling me their views than someone who came across 2 or 3 animals.
Just my opinion
I was feeling okay with a lot of the info in this video and I actually had a bit of a change of heart. I used to be active in animal rescue and am always a little in the community, so most of what I've seen have been extreme cases. It was nice to see your animals doing so well and I no longer believe that spiders should never be bred.
But the way you spoke to goherping in the comments was hard to read. Sure you have a lot of experience, but you shouldn't completely ignore or belittle others when you're frustrated. It seems like most of it was miscommunication and misunderstanding but your response sounded extreme and irrational. I can see you were frustrated, but you were saying a lot of what he was saying while being upset with him...
Also
I saw a lot of what you said about focusing on other animals, and yeah, that was just deflecting. Yeah there are more important issues, but we're able to prevent an issue from getting worse here. I saw an example that you shared that I thought I could expand on and maybe help explain what people are looking for here!
I'm a dog person. I work with dogs and have since I was 12(well over 10 years ago) and I'm an intern for a dog trainer while I work on getting my certification with the intention of eventually becoming a dog behaviorist and breeder some day. So essentially my life is full of dogs and dog things.
I personally am focused on molossoid(large livestock and estate guardians descended from the Molossus) breeds as well as bully breeds(decended from molossers). You mentioned the Pug and essentially summarized the English and French Bulldogs(these are the breeds who require IVF and C sections to be able to reproduce. They also typically have short lifespans and there are some issues in relation to their energy and body shapes that really make me sad but I won't get too into at this moment). These are what I'd classify as bully dogs and they are decedents of molossers. I NEVER recommend that someone buys a Pug, Frenchie, or an English Bulldog. The initial cost of buying a dog followed by the lifetime vet bills and heart break are too much. Not many people know about these issues, and they get these dogs and find out that they not only spent $3,000 to purchase their dog but that they'll spend another $10,000 in their dogs lifetime to keep it breathing and maybe still lose it at the end anyways.
Now there are breeders who breed these animals, as they are, without having nearly as many health issues as I mentioned. They're considerably healthy animals, all things considered. They'll live to 12 with 2-3 normal and simple doggy lifetime incidents and pass away with their families once they're too old. These breeders are usually extremely active in the dog community and their breed. They either participate in dog shows and sports or they are present but not active by choice(Retro Mop, Olde English Bulldogge, and other breed bettering projects are often in this category) and are still health testing their animals and making sure they only breed the HEALTHIEST animal. If someone insists on an English Bulldog to me, I first recommend the breed bettering alternative(Olde English Bulldogge) and then I recommend looking for a responsible breeder as I described above. In my analogy, you are a responsible breeder. You provide your parent animals with proper care and nutrition and you are very focused on the health of your animals. You'd be embarrassed to produce and sell an animal that only brings it's owner and self stress.
You see, the issue isn't the responsible breeders, and the issue isn't you or the spider morph itself.
The issue is with backyard breeders(BYB's) and/or animal mills.
Now a backyard breeder is someone who has an animal and says "why not." and breeds and sells. This happens often. A sign of a backyard breeder is someone who has little to no experience with the animals in their care, they often have inadequate husbandry and their animals may suffer from unaddressed health problems- or in the case of dogs, go untested for common and preventable genetic health concerns. The French Bulldog as a breed has almost been entirely engulfed by BYB's. It's obvious in the shape and behavior of the dogs and way that they sell their animals. Most French Bulldogs are marketed by color rather than personality or health(in dogs this is extremely dangerous, it's much more okay in reptiles as it isn't tied to the same issues as it is in dogs). The biggest issue is BYB's going from BYB's to Puppy Mills. Their house pets became breeding stock and often Puppy Mills keep dogs in dog runs and some have "employees" who care for the animals. Some of the animals bred by these people are essentially feral because their only human interaction is feeding and cleaning(which happens at... a good?... puppy mill. Augh they are nasty places. Also this sounds a lot like what I've seen from BHB's snakes and geckos. Hmmm). The puppies from these places are riddled with health issues. They die young, they struggle the whole way through their short lives. These are puppies who are also behaviorally unsound, and they bite or pee in fear and in odd situations. It's unpredictable and bad and unhealthy. Often parent animals are also poorly nourished and it affects the babies.
It's people like the BYB's and Mills, like Brian, who are a problem. They turn out unhealthy animals and then take the money and run, leaving people with unhealthy pets and lots of suffering in their futures. They don't care so they'll keep abusing their animals and turning profits, because THAT is what matters to them.
When goherping was talking about "regulation" he was talking about our job as members in the animal community to educate(like you did in this video! It's really enlightening) but also to try and prevent bad breeding from happening(like goherpings poor snake). He just wants a solution to BYB's and Mills and I don't blame him or anyone else for being frustrated with the way spiders are being produced by these people. It brings up how do we as a community(NOT THE LAW, no one want's the law involved! We're all anti-PET.A and legal regulations) self regulate? We don't want legal restrictions and after what I saw from you today I actually don't think the spider's are that bad off. But we need to step in now to prevent what's happened to the Pug and Bulldogs from happening to the spider. He was just talking about how it can be done by proper keepers to prevent it from becoming a bigger problem.
Also, I think some people are also worried about this becoming something similar to pugs, which I don't think is a rational concern YET, but I can see why people are worried. It's a concern that our standards for health in reptiles may be lowering. I know I saw a Leopard Gecko the other day from a breeding project where the animals were exhibiting brachycephalic traits(pug nose) which is a scary thought. Also fun fact, most extremely brachy breeds like the pug and bulldogs weren't nearly as extreme some 30-40 years ago. Around then people decided that the rounder head shape was more appealing, especially in the pug. And it really only took 10 years to reduce and reshape the face significantly. If you're interested in seeing what they used to look like I recommend looking at the Retro Mop(a german pug line)!
What's so sad about it is that I doubt anything can be done, since it's hard to discourage people from breeding their pets without proper research and since reptiles suffer so much thanks to poor husbandry information from pet stores and BYB's and Mills. Add on that people also view reptiles as disposable, which is so fucking sad but until that changes we'll be dealing with a lot of really bad animal care, and we have a recipe for a lot of careless breeding. I'm actually sure that goherpings snake may not have been born quite that way, but it may have been intensified by continued poor care and nutrition in it's life after hatching, before goherping rescued him.
But it would be interesting to know what you think about all of this. My thought is we can just continue to try and help direct people to proper sources for their snakes and try to call out people who are animal abusers like BYB's and Mills in hopes of reducing unknowledgeable purchases and the animals suffering.
Anyways sorry for the novel. Idk if anyone will ever even see it. Haha Animal welfare is just really important and interesting and I'm a bit of a rambler too. I hope this made sense!
Finally an educated response in a sea of misguided, uninformed, internet mob mentality hype.. i hope more people read your post! Unfort. a lot of the band wagon doesn't have the attention span to do so. Have a nice day=P
I loved it! Your not bashing ANYONE ! That's awesome
Not related to the video, but you made me look up Olde English Bulldogue and Retro Mops and they are so much beautiful than their unhealthy counterparts. I don't know much about dogs since I'm a cat and reptile person, but I am glad to see the efforts that are being made by health-conscious breeders. Those were pleasantly adorable puppers!
You are so right. Your comment was beautiful and well written, thank you!
Carrotkeet
I agree with u. Where r u located?? My icon photo is Jake my medical service dog. I also have a 2 shepherds and a tiny dog. All were rescues. I have one who was sexually abused. Makes me sick how animals r abused.
Kevin seems to dance around this and just show examples of “minor wobbles” and ignore the fact that bad breeders (unlike him) dont pay attention to these issues and keep breeding animals with them.
Kevin is great, a literal genius and pioneer of the industry. But I have to disagree with his logic here.
I know this video was posted 2 years ago but Kevin has a very good point and I'm starting to have a hypothesis that the neurological issues severity is based on the animals stress level and if your habit isn't idea and is a stressful environment to live in can cause it to become a more severe wobble
The snake community is strange. I like snakes but all this morph ish is weird
Yeah I‘ll be fine with a completely normal snake and not fancy morphs or whatsoever needed for me
They treat animals like collectible toys. Disgusting.
He wasn't basing those severe cases of spiders he showed as the base for all spiders. We only have spiders that bad because people don't stop breeding them.
Rarely ever found anything I would even call a wobble in any spider line I've worked with
The worst I've run into is a snake that may be misses a strike or 2 when feeding
But I've had normals and other genes do this too, especially on frozen feeders.
The spider gene issues and frequencies are greatly exaggerated
Kevin has got to be legally blind blind as a bat LMAO
I think the solution is pretty simple in this situation.
Anyone who breeds spiders or morphs containing spider in it should be offering lifetime guarantees on their snakes. It gives the owner recourse in the case of a snake refusing to feed and perishing, or not thriving, etc. It gives the breeder peace of mind in knowing that they are being ethical about the reality of the situation, that being that sometimes it is difficult to tell how much wobble affects a snake until it is no longer a very young juvenile.
I won't buy them, even though I would love a bumble bee, but I wouldn't completely write off purchasing from someone who bred them, provided they were offering a guarantee in the case of a severe case of wobble.
@Alicia Bee -- Requiring a lifetime guarantee is brilliant! I know that some Old School hobby dog breeders have a policy that if the customer has ANY problems with a dog purchased from them they'll take it back, no questions asked. Sadly, this attitude isn't shared by profit-oriented breeders. :-(
If we could make breeders of all pet species-- including cats, sugar gliders, geckos, etc.-- take responsibility for the lifetime of the animal, then breeders would either straighten out their act or seek another line of work. And I suspect that a lot of problematic breeds would either disappear or would be bred for a more moderate phenotype.
that wouldn't work, snakes are picky eaters sometimes. not to mention that if the animal perished there's a 50% that it's from poor husbandry, the idea is nice but you can't guarantee a life because there's no guarantee an animal won't have issues down the road or that the person just didn't know what they were doing.
*snake is clearly shaking*
"I don't see anything"
*snake continues to shake*
"I promise I don't sell them because I want money, it's about art!"
*_200 IQ PLAY_*
*snake is literally going upside down* “nah, she’s great” *turns snake right side up* “she’s eating, breeding and not dead so she’s obviously fine”
@@georgina4336 Literally his snakes aren't going "Upside down". Fucking shit, you have 3iq you fucking human gerbil.
Some of the shaking was due to being held. People shake somewhat when holding things. That shake can be magnified through the object being held. I could hold any random snake, and it's head would appear to shake some. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to breed them? Come on people. Yes, there are extreme cases. There are also extreme cases of human birth defects from some of you West Virginians as well. Does that mean you are going to stop breeding? Didn't think so.
like he said he was adding to the shakeing.
Voyageworm I mean that’s exactly right. If the animal eats on its own, drinks, poops and especially breeds, isn’t that evidence that it’s perfectly happy and thriving? Snakes aren’t like us, they’re very simple. It’s not like this thing is gonna get bullied
kevin when literally anyone new to a morph talks about a morph he works with daily: "what in the fuck are you people talking about?"
NERD may have enough of a gene pool in spiders to avoid the major neurological issues. Other spider breeders may be inbreeding the heck out of their snakes.
The comments speak for themselves. This video did not succeed in what it set out to do.
Well yea, because the comments are filled with people who don't know anything
@@starcow17 No, these comments are filled with people who are concerned and don't support breeding of animals that suffer from Genetic diseases that are easily preventable by not breeding them. It's like Pugs or Bulldogs. They suffer from Genetic diseases because of years of breeding to create a creature that suffers its whole life. But those Breeders don't give a shit because they see the money. Just because the look "cool" doesn't justify a high chance of lowering its lifestandarts. They don't want a snake that is basically Retarded because people saw money. It's like being born blue but Retarded because some alien race decided that they wanted a blue human with complete disregard of how the human feels. The Spider morph is like justifying breeding English Bulldogs ( who have now the average lifespan of 7 years because of the "purebreeding")
@@panzerschiff9805 again though you wouldn't have to worry about breeding these animals if people we're more responsible with it like Nerd is.
@OGRedwood what's so hard for you to understand that people do want these snakes that's why people buy them, you sound really stupid as for these snakes are not retarded but maybe you are.
I really do appreciate this video! Im new to owning snakes have a cali king and an orange dream ball. I watched hours of videos on youtube and with being on my own nothing stopping me from getting myself some snakes. Did see videos on the spider genes that honestly scared me away from those particular morphs even though they are gorgeous. I was a bit skeptical though because Brian is in my youtube rotation and i didnt see the crazy wobbles that the main antagonist had. And with this eruption of wobble videos against brian especially it was a harder pill to swallow. I am so glad you have this video out. To see your amazing morphs and the care you put in, i am ashamed i didnt subscribe sooner. Cant wait to learn more and im indefinitely not scared off from the spiders and more!
Agreed. If you do the research and use your brain, it's obvious that the solution is to just, not buy from DISREPUTABLE BREEDERS.
I'm glad Kevin watched the videos and find those snakes tragic too. He has a heart for his animals and is not just breeding for the money. What he said about rescued animals is a valid point as well. I guess we will need more data to come to a more definite conclusion.
I bought my first BP a year ago which had spider. From that 1 gorgeous animal i now have 27. His fault, totally. 7 are spider. Out of all of them, my spiders eat the best, have the best personalities. I know it strange to say about snakes, but the spider gene carrier ones seem the most affectionate or curious about me. I only learned about the Wobble later, and the phobia on spider would have ruined my perception if I heard it first. From keeping them myself, i get hurt and angry when i hear someone rip into the spider. From personally owning them, the hysteria people cause is unfounded. For they special animals. Thanks Kevin for breeding spider, and giving me something I enjoy and love...
Especially when they are talking about banning or culling etc. Like...Ok, treat the gene with scrutiny and raise issues that are important to be aware of/careful with- particularly with breeders who aren't as careful or diligent as NERD.
But stop villainizing and dramatizing based on a small sample-size of extreme cases. Awareness of a potential issue is great, especially as this gene is curated by man (not really occurring in the wild, minus the original mutation discovered by NERD). But this drama and call for government oversight and intervention sets us down a dangerous path, where legislators who aren't animal experts will simply start adding names to a list of banned animals, because someone pays them to, or a petition was signed by laypersons who watch scare-mongering videos.
The sad part also being that I believe the videos referenced here (the ones discussing the negatives) genuinely care about these animals. But Kevin's also not wrong in acknowledging that, I bet, most of them don't know the genetic history of the disabled snakes shown. They could have had terribly negligent husbandry, been kept in really poor conditions, incubated incorrectly. They don't bother factoring that stuff in and just blame the gene, because that's easier.
Awesome video man! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with the spider gene!
So where's the "misinformation?" This video is trying to gain wholesale support for prominent breeders in the hobby by focusing on the breeders' claims to fame. It's not an objective look at a serious situation. It is immoral to breed animals with genetic neurological deficits that impair their quality of life just because they have, in Barczyk's words "a nice paint job." Your description of this neurological deficit as "endearing" is a mindless rationalization. From what I've seen up until this point, I have been impressed with NERD's advocacy of the ethical treatment of animals and their willingness to lead by example. To continue to impress along these lines, please rethink and retract your comments in this video, stop breeding genetically compromised snakes, and denounce practices that place aesthetics and earnings above animal health. You guys need to stand up and be on the right side of history.
Lol you are an ass . You didnt listen ahows if u are already biases have no interest in learning actual information .
Where are the case studies? We need irrefutable information from reliable sources.
These traits would indeed weed out the animals in the wild but this is captivity. There is no pain associated with it and in captivity they get food consistently (something inconsistent in the wild), shelter, cover and all in a no predator environment. Can you describe, without placing your own human experience on the animal, how their quality of life is not impaired by the wobble?
mstalcup What all of you are saying is quite ridiculous. So what about people then? People that have a history in their families genetics to possibly have heart issues, digestion issues, bone disease, eye problems, or mental retardation just to name a few shouldn't have kids ever? Your saying that if these problems are known that they shouldn't procreate?!? How do you think the spider gene came about? How do you think human disease and disorders came about? Use your brain!!!!!!!!
The wobble isn't that bad really, I mean did you know they are still functional enough that they actually live and breed in the literal. Wild.
Lmao I got an ad for a course to learn the python coding language 😂
The more I learn about NERD and what they are about the more I want to join your team. Your values and animals are amazing! Much respect.
The spider gene was found the year I was born so it’s likely it’s been around longer than me
Hey Kevin Do you still have the original spider ball python or any from the original clutch or it’s offspring
No. I have some of the lineage but only bits.....
I mean, I think people are possibly inbreeding their spiders so deeply that it's causing this to be exacerbated
Thanks for this video. I am learning a lot about the condition as I'm looking for my first snake as I've always had lizards. As many videos as I've seen I also think it comes down to the specific breeder and if a breeder is choosing to breed an animal that has a lot of issues, or breeding too close in genetics. People need to pay more attention to the breeder in many cases than the snake. People also seem to forget that genetic anomalies happen quite often in the wild...which is how the Spiders originally came to be. You don't hear about mass anomalies in nature because of the principles of nature...survival of the fittest - a brightly colored animal, slower moving, or deficient animal is more likely to be noticed as prey. That all said, I think a responsible breeders should offer to take back and refund or replace any animal that shows severe signs of deformity.
Love how blunt Kevin is and any buddy thinks that he's hiding something or not being straight up go meet him and ask him face to face stop hiding behind RUclips
YEAH!!!!!!!! :)
Idk man I was subscribed up until now..I can't say I can follow someone who says they enjoy a wobble or admire it.
PrEACH
Same
Bayli faini bye Felicia.
Bayli faini 100% Agree, high key nauseating to see misinformed people who enjoy an animals debilitating neurological problem
@Bayli faini- From what I've seen, Spider ball snakes know no other way of existing. I think if they were suffering from the 'wobble,' they'd go off feed and starve to death just like what unhappy snakes are known to do. I'm not well informed of the spider ball world, I'm just basing my opinion by what I've seen about the 'wobble' on youtube thus far.
I have heard the Spider Gene called an Incomplete Dominant Gene in other videos. Is it possible that the neurological issues with the Spider Gene are tied to it being "incomplete"? Is there a way to test the genetics of Spider Ball Pythons to see if this is the case or to see if there is another underlying factor causing these issues?
Incomplete just means that it is PARTIALLY dominant. It means 2 alleles can be partially displayed. I'm not hugely into genetics so maybe 2 genes being in the same locus can cause something wrong but I don't really see why or how. It doesn't occur with other incomplete dominant genes which are common in the reptile field.
Not every one has a heart problems. I have Hypertension a-fib....ect. I have a genetic issue in my family line.
Can you located the gene, where it came from?
7:40 Do we have any official word yet on whether or not Brian Barczyk does dishes? This is important, we need to know!
He for sure does. But hes also running (pretty much) a zoo.
He’s got a disgusting amount of animals
Joking aside I really don’t understand why people are so hard on Brian he’s a great guy . Sure he may get some things wrong or make mistakes but he apologizes and or corrects him self for it later He’s only human as is everysingle person that’s hiding behind there keyboards trash taking him despite how high and mighty they may act .
The SavageCaliber speak for yourself mortal
I'm absolutely living for this video ❤️ so glad you guys are posting more on here!
Thank you!!!!
I was just wondering if there are any kind of test that can be done to figure out why this happens and what causes it. Personally at this point in time I would not purchase a snake with the spider gene. BUT, I feel like in order to ban something like this tests and research should be done. It sounds to me like no one really knows what's going on with this snake gene.
Go herping actually knows alot, but your right some wobble alot but some don't, but go herping said that some spiders are fine
Awesome beggining of a video!
Trolling the trolls!!
Matt Gambrel from Olympus reptiles ROCKS!!
The Spider morph ROCKS!! (I just bought one!)
I live the way they look but I've seen some nasty woobbles. But some spiders show no woobles or very little.
Not some most show little to no wobble. Severe wobble is pretty rare
I love your videos like this. You don't need editing or polished anything. This is you and natural and loaded with invaluable information.
Soooooo..... I'll just add my 2 cents here. Take it as you will. I've been into herps for a long time. I love the spider gene patterns. I love the spider gene in general. I have been to expos, I frequent pet stores and reptile specialty shops all the time. I have seen wobble in many different morphs. Yes, there are very extreme cases of wobble. Yes, it may occur more often in certain genes. But the majority of spider morphs I have seen don't have a severe case. Maybe they tilt a bit but they feed normally and have good quality of life. To ban a particular gene because of some extreme cases of issues would be like, on the human side, condemning Down's syndrome or Autism or other human issues. I truly believe that the spider gene has value in the ball python world just as human conditions have value in our world. Any animal at any time can have neurological symptoms but we don't ban certain breeds of dog or cat or bird. Yet people have a tendency to jump on band wagons, especially negative ones. And that, it seems to me, is what is going on here. So, yes, I do side with NERD on this one. Thanks for giving me the short rant.
I know this comment dates a bit but your point about autism or Down's syndrome is the complete opposite of what you're saying. We try to screen before the baby is born for these conditions. The real parrallel would be : breeding babies with autism because they look better (better skin, muscles etc) knowing well the condition affects their life, wich is what they're doing with spiders : breeding snakes with some problems because they look pretty... Ethically, it is kinda wrong.
A lot of these comments are extremely ablist. My youngest daughter has Muenke Syndrome. Don't know what it is? I didn't either. It's a genetic mutation that can cause premature bone fusion, learning delays, webbed fingers and toes, ringing in the ears, etc. My daughter had reconstructive cranial surgery at nine months old because her brain had no room to grow. She came through surgery fine. She is a happy healthy 9 year old, BUT she still carries that gene. With her and her sister, there was a 50% chance one of them would get it. My youngest did. If she decides to have children, the odds go up to 75% of being passed on. There's a family that every generation, there is 100% chance of the mutation being passed on. She wants to be a mom and I will have that conversation with her when she gets older. In the end, it will be completely up to her if she decides to have children or not. I hope not. No child should have to live through that.
This topic has nothing to do with children or individuals with disabilities, so quit dragging them into it.
This is topic about a ball python morph that carries a gene for neurological disorders. Just because some breeders have ethics, it doesn't mean all of them do and that's where the problem lies.