An Arminian Error?
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- Dr. Flowers, Director Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, discussing the meaning of Prevenient grace and the error some Arminians make regarding man's natural born condition.
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Provisionists: The only people who think Arminians are too much like Calvinists
David Broome y’all to Open theists or those undeterred by the label “semi-pelagian.” 😉
Yes Leighton is afraid of approaching Hebrews his osas garbage is just as bad as the calvinists
Just left Bible study where my Calvinistic teacher asked if I was semi-Pelagian. 😉
Yvonne doulos
That’s why I am cautious when I hear Calvinist defined terms. Some of those terms imply only two or three understandings of the topic. You would pelagian, semipelagian or non-pelagian (Calvinist). I don’t subscribe to terminology if it has automatic theological baggage. I prefer my own baggage, thank you. Ha, ha, ha.
No. What do you mean by that?
David Rogers
I’m not sure if your question was to me or to someone else. I’m unclear exactly how you meant your question. Normally, Calvinists use Pelagianism to refer to people who can achieve salvation through some degree of self-effort. Semi-pelagic would be, therefore, being saved partly through self effort and partly through God’s assistance.
Sorry, I should have clarified. My reply was an intended suggestion for responding to the Calvinist asking about Semi-Pelagianism.
David Rogers
Okay. But it’s a good point. I have been asked repeatedly if I affirmed certain beliefs that were squarely pelagian or semi-pelagian. Interestingly, I had never offered any reason to suggest I was.... except that I wasn’t Calvinist.
I knew a certain Lutheran, who allowed for Arminian views, Calvinist views, and Lutheran views. But those were the only options, in his mind. When I suggested that if one could be neither Calvinist nor Arminian, why one could not choose a different model from those... he got mad.
I might be misremembering the dialogue, but varying degrees on the spectrum are not viable options, according to some.
We must somehow choose something from the Calvinist classification of things.
For example, as Leighton Flowers pointed out, we get accused of misunderstanding Calvinism and Arminianism, of creating straw men.
I hesitate to use the term “prevenient grace” because its meaning already has historical baggage.
love the simplicity.
Jesus is enough, even enough to move the lost to believe :-)
It isn't wrong to say that He does it through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is here; Jesus is in heaven. When he draws "all men" (John 12:31-33), He does it through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the agency by which we spiritually understand the gospel, and believe.
The gospel is sufficient, and it is the power of God unto salvation. We do need His help to understand the gospel spiritually. That doesn't send us back to Calvinism, or make us semi-pelagians or any of that. We ARE fallen, and we need the work of God to even recognize Jesus as who He is. But He draws all men; He is the light that lights every man who comes into the world. What's the problem with a work of the Holy Spirit being necessary? It is what He does in the world. He is not unwilling to draw us to Jesus, to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment. So what's the problem with saying we need His help to come to Jesus?
Prevenient grace equals the second birth.
@@lindajohnson4204 please explain Ephesians 4 : 6 to me..
THE SPIRIT OF JESUS dwells in our hearts..
I really appreciate your work my brother and it's very frustrating to me how many people my age are Calvinists or calvinist leaning. It's very frustrating to me how many preachers and teachers are Calvinists. Very grateful for your work and I hope I can join you in sharing the good news of God's word on a platform as yours.
Honest question; why is it so frustrating? Are they doomed? And dragging people to hell? If not then why the frustration?
Sometimes, I am frustrated as well, and really worried, because I have heard of people who were afraid that they themselves were not one of God's elect, or they say, "how could a good God predestine certain people to Hell before they were even born?" and so they are turned away from God and do not believe. If Calvinism is taught in isolation from the rest of scripture, it quickly and easily leads to a warped view and understanding of God and a snare of the devil. That being said there are still Calvinists who are true Christians and do love God and seek to evangelize the lost. So we should pray for them and hope that the good news of salvation through faith in Jesus will continue to be proclaimed and believed, despite the errors in Calvinistic theology.
I just pray that calvinist don’t get into the southern Baptist Church in Georgia they are trying first Baptist Atlanta and Woodstock Baptist
@@mariepybus894, I'm ok with the Calvinists but some Calvinist preachers certainly are guilty of doing these hidden invasions, making Wesleyan-Arminian/free will Baptist churches Reformed Baptist… is that genuine on their part or is a part of a coordinated action I wonder.
@@sammig.8286 yes that is why calvinism becomes a cult they have turned God into a monster and made him as low as the devil
And if you think hard enough you begin to see that it is the devil
Thank you again for the video! God bless!
Prevenient grace is the the grace that brings us to conviction which comes from the hearing word of God. This conviction comes from the knowledge that we are lost without Christ.
Amen brother!
Yes!
The drawing required in John 6:44, certainly the same drawing as in John 12:32, in which Jesus promised to draw all men unto Himself, is a grace that must come before we can come to Jesus. Jesus said it was necessary, so it is necessary. It is grace which comes before, so prevenient grace is biblical.
I will present a devotion on prevenient grace on Friday. This stirs my thought. My Jesus, I love and thank You.
Awesome video, Jesus loves all people and all people can be saved
Am I wrong to think that we shouldn’t be chopping Grace up into different pieces and slapping all these labels on it? Don’t we make ineffective the Grace of God?
The label "prevenient" is just the Latinate word for _comes before._ The term simply means that grace from God must come before our believing unto salvation. In John 6:44, Jesus says that no one can come to Him, unless the Father draws him (that would be through the Holy Spirit), but in John 12:32, Jesus said that if He was lifted up, and He meant on the cross, He would draw all men unto Himself. So this drawing cannot be irresistible, since all men are drawn, but only some respond positively and come to Him. And Jesus's drawing must also be by the Holy Spirit, since He is in heaven, but the Spirit is down here. Using the explanatory label _prevenient_ was intended to point out how God's grace acted on us to save us, but since it's a Latin theological term, it has the effect of hiding it under what seems like theological shop talk. But it is still good to describe it in terms that point to what it is God is doing through his grace. After all, God is doing things through His grace; it isn't just some cloud of grace, sitting around, just a formality which does nothing. God the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit unto the world to do something, to help us find and believe the work that Jesus did for us on the cross.
When Jesus draws all men, it is _the Way, _*_the Truth_*_ and the Life_ drawing people by the *Spirit of truth.* That is as much truth as happens in this world, from the whole basis of truth. No way could Jesus's drawing be insincere.
Maybe the Calvinists could rename them: Ineffectual Grace, and Effectual Grace.
.. agreed. They seem to ALL miss the fact that God works with the flesh He designed for us, to get His people's attention, from the bondage & plagues in Exodus to Isaiah 30:20's water of affliction and bread of adversity, from Lamentations to the diaspora, from the bondage of slavery or poverty, to the plagues of the book of Revelation... God puts a very practical "hurt" on us by giving us plagues, the "bread of adversity" and/or "water of affliction" to make us turn to Him, humble us, repent.... this hurting is a form of "grace" but it is certainly NOT the Calvinist voodoo of pre-faith regeneration .. *_for sure_*
Thank you, this video was very helpful.
Everyone has the chance to embrace the truth... don't reject our Lord and Savior.
Another scripture that I think can make thu Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". Prevenient grace is definitely true, hence the gospel is enough and all men have a choice to make, whether to accept the saving grace or reject it.
Marumo Mamaleka amen I didn’t even see your post but I just posted the exact same thing.
Love that verse!
Partial regeneration is crazy, I think the provisionist position is what I have always believed it is so simple thanks Leighton
The term partial regeneration is… meh.
I’d use the term “enlightenment”.
Looking at Heb 10:32 “having been enlightened” means full regeneration
@@falconguy4768 I’m referring to a different “enlightenment”. Enlightenment in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit is regenerative, but enlightenment in regards to prevenient grace is not.
Ok provide scriptural reference to this understanding
@@falconguy4768 The Bible clearly teaches that all are called to repent and believe in the gospel (Acts 16:30-31), yet it also acknowledges a clear impact of sin on the *mind* because of the fall (John 6:44 & 65; Romans 3:9-12; Ephesians 2:1; Philippians 2:13).
Because of this, God must initiate a grace *in regards to the state of our mind* in order for us to reach salvation. This is what John is referring to in John 1:9 and John 12:32, and what Paul is saying in Romans 2:4. As seen in the New Testament, this grace is ordinarily given by the means of the word of God itself, but God can also use a plethora of other means as well.
Now in order to do away with the claim of prevenient grace, you’ll have to explain how this explanation is actually not consistent with the biblical text.
I like the term "Provisionist" it's easier to understand than "Baptist Traditionalist"
Thanks Layton very good expliquation
Your videos keep getting better! It's cite by the way, not site 11:05 :)
I was going to mention the "site" vs "cite" thing, but thought I'd check the comments first. I'll upvote your comment instead.
Best video yet, nice and short and simple, please do more like this and less long big video
not less of long... just more of short
I love the details but an hour long video only so much gets retained
I have not found where the scriptures speak of different kinds of grace concerning salvation...
As an Assemblies of God Pentecostal I think I agree with the prevenient grace doctrine. I believe we need the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. We preach the Gospel and the Holy Spirit begins to convict men of their sin but man still has the free will to reject. We can’t do this alone. The Bible teaches that we are coworkers with God. We can not preach the Gospel without the power of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks Leighton. I was surprised to learn over the years that Arminianism came out of Calvinism (as Arminius was a Calvinist pleading to his Calvinistic brothers). We can see in Arminianism how it looks to believe in refuting doctrine with compromised doctrine that never needed to be an argument. As it seems, Calvinism has created or caused or birthed Arminianism. This has me questioning some considerations elsewhere. How is it that Luther believed in grace through faith alone for salvation, while holding on to the sacraments as means of salvation? Based on that understanding of salvation, would that not make Luther's Christianity cultish...and yet revered as Christian and father of Protestantism?
I wouldn’t use the term partial regeneration to explain prevenient grace, but to me, Leighton’s thoughts on hearing the gospel through the inner working grace of the Holy Spirit is a distinction without a difference when comparing that to prevenient grace. In both cases God is working in the individual prior to conversion, and in both cases the individual is free to reject this drawing and call to follow Christ. I would add that I believe God does use all kinds of different circumstances in our lives to help prepare us, or preveniently provide grace in our lives to prepare our hearts to hear the gospel, which I think Leighton would probably agree with… maybe? Lol
Anyway, I think the greatest divide between the Provisionist and the Arminian is not prevenient grace, but eternal security of the believer. I’ve yet to hear Leighton defend that position, but I think it is pretty clear in Scripture that a truly regenerate believer can become apostate.
"9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ." (I Corinthians 1: 9-12)
I'm not a Calvinist, and there is no directive to the unsaved to, first, confess sin/sins or acknowledge their needing a savior, in the Epistles specifically addressing the the Body of Christ. Just give 1 verse from the Epistles that explain how one is saved upon their hearing the Gospel. The Gospel ("...the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes...) that tells them that Jesus "died for our sins according to the scriptures..."
Faith to believe in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, as one unsaved, comes by hearing the Gospel. When one "believes" the Gospel one is believing Jesus died for his or her sins, and that he was buried, and that he was raised from the dead on the 3rd day, and that he was seen by more than 500 witnesses.
Men weren't unable to choose between good and evil,due to the fall.Very few chose good ,because ,until the gospel appeared,there was no motivation to go against the grain.
Not "infuse", but _strive with_ and _persuade,_ through drawing and conviction.
"Come, let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as wool. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be white as snow."
Amen..
Preach brother.
Whether Prevenient Grace, Justfying Grace or Sanctifying Grace........Man can resist or accept! That's my Position!
I'm a Molinist, but my practical soteriology is Arminian. I define prevenient grace as the grace that _partially_ remedies mankind's spiritual deadness, allowing persons to accept the free offer of the Gospel if they are willing to do so. (Prevenient grace also assists people in understanding the spiritual aspect of the Gospel.) I admit that the concept of prevenient grace is necessary on account of the doctrine of total depravity, but I see nothing wrong with this. The doctrine of total depravity, in my opinion, is found throughout the Scripture. Since I don't accept unconditional election and irresistible grace in the Calvinistic sense, I must accept the concept of prevenient grace as a way to counteract the effects of the Fall of Man.
Thankyou Jesus that you are my light and salvation you are the strength of my life. I dont understand alot of these arguments or lift myself to thoughts to high for me . I just thankyou LORD for your work on the cross and the raising of JESUS from the dead.
Amen2x brother Leighton
great video
Okay, Leighton has certainly got me thinking about total inability again, though to some extent I don't think that the distinction in practice is that key. Leighton says that the Holy Spirit carries the word of God, so does that not mean that He helps us all to understand it better? Is that grace not there whenever we read the word? Perhaps I need to pray for it more before I read my Bible and not take Him for granted but I trust that He is there for me and the unbeliever.
Perhaps I have got too much Calvinist baggage but I certainly would not accept the term 'partial regeneration'. Even if I am dead in trespasses and sins, completely dead, it does not mean that our God is not powerful enough to enable me to respond to or resist His calling to me. I reject totally that making the choice to believe in Jesus is any kind of meritorious deed on my part. If someone holds out a present to me and I take it, I don't think how wonderful I am to have accepted this gift. I thank the one who paid for it and gave it to me.
About who's responsible for anyone not accepting the gospel, Leighton asks: Is it a natural condition beyond our control OR Is it their own responsibility?
Well, until Leighton convinces me to throw off my Calvinist baggage, I still say both. I still have my baggage and so I am inclined to believe that on my own I would naturally be unable to understand and accept God calling but I do believe that God is calling all men to Himself and He enabled me even if I was completely dead to make a free choice to accept his grace and make a free choice to believe in His love in Jesus for me. And I believe that no matter how dead in sin a person is our God is greater and gives a free choice to all who hear the gospel, and so God along with that choice gives man the responsibility.
Perhaps I'm not really a deep enough thinker to get rid of my baggage at the moment, but whatever the case I pray that God will bless us all and even though we have already put our faith in Jesus, guide us all into a better understanding of all this.amen
I too have some of "Calvinist baggage." I don't think it's bad
What u jusy described is Wesleyan Arminiansm.
Not Classical Arminiansm that started with Jacobus Arminius.
The reason why I'm a Wesleyan is because, Of romans 1
Thanks dr.
@9:06 But these are written (You: Speaking of the Gospel), I believe it is not just the Gospel John was talking about here, He is also talking about the signs, miracles and wonders, so that we may believe, and those are also a work of the Holy Spirit.
True
labeling, over analyzing, is human reasoning for religion. we don’t reach up to God for salvation, He reaches down to us! 🙏🏼
yes but this is not over analyzing for people who are fearful that God did not "elect" them.... that is a huge stumbling block thrown by Satan in the path of believers and the fact that Calvinists resign to wait until they're dead to find out if they were elect or not, just PROVES that Calvinists are NOT saved because they DO NOT BELIEVE Jesus' words. So, if this takes until Jesus returns to disciple people through, to clearly see all they have to do is believe (not be elect) then it is worth every minute we spend in that discipleship because throwing doubt on God's offer of salvation to ANYONE who believes is SATANIC!
Nit-picky Time: "The scholars on both sides...tend to site the other"
It should be "cite" not "site." Otherwise, the video is excellent.
** cough
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.
8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. - 1 Corinthians 3:5-9
God assigned, God gave the growth.
.. yes. good point... Paul and Apollos are definitely NOT the Holy Spirit are they?
Dr. Flowers, your teachings have helped me so much in untangling Calvinistic confusions that I had. I want to thank you for that. However, I became an Arminian a few years ago because Arminian theology really helped me understand versus like John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Notice this verses says, “no one can come.” Doesn’t this mean we are not able to come? However, John 12:32 tells us that when Jesus is lifted up from the earth He will draw all men unto himself thus resorting our ability to respond to Him by His death and resurrection of Jesus. I agree that God uses the Gospel and the convicting work of the Holy Spirit to save people but without God drawing (enabling them by prevenient grace) no one can come. I’m curious to know how you explain John 6:44 from the provisionist perspective. And one last thought, I think we would be more affective against Calvinism if Arminians and provisionists or other non Calvinists who are not Arminians stop debating against each other and try to come to an agreement and work alongside each other to refute Calvinism.
Whatever type of grace is needed, it is available to everyone on the same conditions. Jesus died for all.
Excellent!!!
I've a question:
how would a calvinist explain a backslider?
i was as some of you once were. my Lord God helped me to tame my own will...
Are you specifying a backslider or an apostate? The backslider is simple enough: we are fallen creatures who, though we may be a new creation in Christ, still struggle with sin. Look no further than Paul in Romans 7:15. No one would argue that Paul is a saved individual (he wrote close to two thirds of the New Testament), but even he stumbled and fell. All true believers WILL backslide at some point. Anyone who tells you that they never have is a liar because we still live with our original corrupt bodies. The apostate is dealt with by 1 John 2:19.
4:59 Exactly!
2 corinthians 4:3-4 tell of the need for the Holy Spirit to intervene directly universally if the mind is able to understand well the gospel and the will to freely decide. Sin and and its source satan have blinded humanity from the liberating message of the gospel. This is where the direct act of the Holy Spirit is necessary to stop satan from his blinding works through the human sinful nature and make the mind truly understand the gospel and truly able to believe or reject. Yes arminians are closer to calvinists but traditionalists are closer to pelagians concerning the freedom of the will.
Amen
What I have to conclude is that both Calvinist and Arminian make things too complicated. They are not content that God can do something without man's interjection. Both are not comfortable with the notion that God can do whatever He wants without man's permission.
Who created evil?
Is God's control absolute, or is it dependent on man's choices?
Leighton, would you (or have you done?) a video on biblical fear of God? I've always been afraid of God, but that kind of fear kept me from Him.
It isn't an _additional_ grace than that to which we respond! It is the grace to which we respond!
Jacob Armenia’s was a student of Calvin so their is going to be an over lap that some free will advocates are uncomfortable with. Thus some people will gravitate to something with no Calvinistic baggage so some go with a Provisionism, Molinism, or open theism. The idea of only Calvinism or Armenians is like pretending we are living in 1600.
Whether Catholic, Reformed, or Arminian they all believe in prevenient grace. The alarming difference to me is the Reformed believe God reaches out and whomever He reaches out to can't resist His call and therefore it's all taken care of. That's blasphemy to me. And for every scripture they come up with to "prove" it there's a dozen more disproving it. I think the Lutheran's accept some of reformed doctrine but in this case they don't. Buckman 007 man is out there somewhere teaching against the fallacy of double double predestination. To whit I agree.
I only have one contention with Calvinism, and that is determinism. If determinism is true nothing else matters. Man is reduced to a robot. Is disagreement between brothers not proof that determinism is not truth? Is God arguing with Himself? How can God be glorified through robots? There is no evil since it has been reduced to an act of God. Why pray ? All suffering would be determined. All lost would have no hope. Do I have to go on?
I think objective moral values came after the fall in the Garden of Eden.
More and more I believe that all these different labels or religions have been invented by the Catholic church. I know Calvinists and Arminian beliefs are supposed to be totally different from Catholicism but have you ever read a Watchtower book from the Jehovah Witnesses? They ironically reference tons of Catholic books and what does the average person think a JW and Catholic have in common? Not much of anything. People who are saved just need to read the Bible for themselves and follow the Holy Spirit and quit looking to others for answers because The Spirit and the word will lead us where we need to be.
@@michaellawlor5625 - John 16 v 13
@@michaellawlor5625 - No, the Holy Spirit's way.
@@michaellawlor5625 - Not ultimately.
@@michaellawlor5625 - It took me awhile but I think I see how you're reading what I wrote and that's not what I mean. I don't mean to just go with whatever religion you feel like. I mean that people don't need to worry about labeling themselves as anything. They just need to get into the word of God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth instead of being lead by people into a title of doctrine that they have to call themselves.
@@beeforeal5497 As C.S. Lewis said, you have to pick a "room" inside the "mansion" of Christianity at some point.
I am a believer, not a typical religious christian, far from the garbage they put forth.
God has given life to all and his offer is to have an eternity with him, a bonus, or life extension, you may call this, to all who care for such, we all have this hope presented to us, this is a good God, no threats just a loving offer, that was provided by his Christ, or refuse to believe and live this current life and die at the end, without any hope for the extension, free to all, for Jesus Christ paved the way for it, yet we all must freely choose.
We know already that this natural life will come to an end, is this all of what God intends, not even close, eternity is great with God's family of care and concern and power to sustain us all, i like this great creator God, for he is that awesome for us!
First, one can not believe in Lord Jesus, the Christ, when they are born of the seed of the serpent, neither would they care to, per John Chapter 8. You are of your father, the Devil -- this is literal.
Nobody believes this vital reality in the world in which we live!
Now;
ALL others can and indeed do believe!
Therefore, we are commanded to believe per Romans Chapter 10:9,10.
This brings about our salvation by allowing God to give us his seed, born within the new believer, this is regeneration by the holy spirit(NOT God, the spirit, but rather his gift within).
In order for a person to receive anything from God, believing is required, hence this is how we please God, who in turn, rewards us accordingly..
This is a true saying:
Romans 10:9,10.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
All I know is God loves the world, and wants to save every one. He calls all to turn back to Him, and the truth about Him is shown in Jesus.
Guilt, shame, fear, all the lies of the devil against mankind has been set in their proper perspective in Christ.
IDK. "Grace for grace" is straight Bible. It's not a big error if it is one.
So God gives a weak grace that's really insufficient to do anything in all of its forms, and therefore has to make a greater grace that is actually effectual? wow...
This is what happens when you shoehorn human philosophy into the Word in order to protect the golden calf of human free will.
@@douglasmcnay644 Well, if I have no free will, then God ordained for me to be a non-Calvinist, right? I didn't get to choose anything, as I have no free will. And I get no choice now, right? Every thought I've ever had was decreed by God ages before I was born. Calvinists believe this, yes? He literally made me this way, yes?
@@douglasmcnay644 "Human philosophy", that's very ironic when you are Augustinian.
At 8:45, I thought it looks like you accept election.
All grace is supernatural, because it's all a work of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists believe that it is irresistible, never palpable or knowable. You want to say that it is some indefinable thing called "grace", but you seem to not want God to be actively involved in it. That's the One who was sent to "guide" us "into all truth", the "Comforter", who has no especial interest in us, and certainly never bothers to touch us personally. He indwells us, but not in any personal capacity (the image of "dead" condos in Marco Island comes to mind). He just officially indwells us, officially draws us, officially guides us, but of course, we experience none of that, including the comfort promised by implication, when Jesus called Him the Comforter ,sent to be with us, forever, so that we would not be alone. If we do not have an experience of the Comforter, a whole lot of what Jesus said would simply be untrue.
Maybe instead of Calvinist/Augustinian doctrine, it is *the Bible* that causes us to believe He is actively involved, wielding His "sword" like a surgical instrument. What else would make it "quick", living? What would make words, printed in ink, on paper, "able"? Our reasoning ability? Really?
That is dependence on the "arm of flesh". It's not that we aren't supposed to reason, but we are told *not to lean to our own understanding, but in all our ways, acknowledge Him, and He will direct our steps.* Is that undesirable in this age?,* Not only that, but Jesus said that God *reveals His truth ("these things")* to the *"babes",* and *hides them* from the *wise and prudent.* Who is better at reasoning: the babes, or the worldly wise and prudent? Generally, it is the worldly wise and prudent who reason most skillfully, and the babes are pretty poor at it. If we were led to believe by our reasoning, why do so many who trust in their own reasoning, "logic", "Pure" reason, etc, so much more often become atheists, than believe in Jesus? It would have to be something from God which makes the constant logical arguments, arrayed against belief in God, and against belief in Jesus, less believable than the inner witness of His reality and the truth He testified of, which the Spirit testifies of to our hearts.
Why do so many not want the Holy Spirit to be more than a theoretical idea, not a living reality in our lives, as Jesus described Him? Could it be that modern Christianity wants to remain firmly secular, with God remaining a slight dent, a tiny admission, in an otherwise completely secular lifestyle? If the Holy Spirit is real, and involved in our lives, then we can't dismiss him to his place of unreality (which we kowtow to, but don't really believe) quite as easily. He will be all up in our business, as we choose to see it, and we'll have to repent on a regular basis to walk in fellowship with Him. The babes are thrilled to have the sometimes palpable presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, but the wise and prudent are just glad they don't have to complicate their lives by acting like God is real.
When you deny the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, you relegate our coming to faith to logical reasoning, alone, eliminating all the babes and dying thieves who can't always reason well enough to arrive at faith. Oh, and the gospel, which you claim is empowered by the fact that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit way back when, but you deny that the Spirit has anything to do with making the gospel and the reality of God, real to us in the here and now. Since it has to have some kind of power, but not the Holy Spirit's power, you relegate us to believing it's some kind of magical power, for no other reason that it can't be empowered by the Holy Spirit, like the Bible implies and outright says. The only thing that fills the gap between our reasoning ability (the babes have famously poor reasoning) has to be some kind of gospel power which is not the actively working Holy Spirit. Anything but that.
But why? He's nothing like TBN, Bethel Redding, etc.
Incidentally, most of the people pushing this drumbeat, of no active contact with, or contribution from, the Holy Spirit, are Calvinists or Reformed Lutherans (not to mention the Pope, who thinks personally "knowing" Jesus is "silly" and "absurd" (John 10). No experience of the *Comforter,* but *_Irresistible_* grace: great. The Almighty *"liturgy",* at least 50% the work of mere men: wonderful. "God with us", but _not really._
If you don't give money to the church you cannot stay why I don't go to church I probably cannot feed myself
I’ll just continue to believe what the Bible says
Council of Orange (529 AD)
Canons 4-8
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).
Nothing new under the sun, full on Pelaganism already had been rejected as a heresy
Council of Orange also condemned determinism.
Lol
I can’t find your email address to send you something.
GOD destined me to leave calvanism so i did!
Something that the bible doesn't teach.
Leighton is spot on except the notion, teaching, of confession of sin to ATTAIN salvation. When reading the EPISTLES, not gospel accounts of Jesus being under the Law of Moses covenant, fulfilling specificed laws that when kept was to be their righteousness- per Deuteronomy 6:25, until Faith came, one will NOT FIND the ABC's of salvation! EVERY verse instructing one concerning SALVATION will NEVER make CONFESSION of sin/being a sinner a PREREQUISITE. God does not INSTRUCT ANYONE to acknowledge per se that they are a sinner needing to be saved. God's GOSPEL MESSAGE ABOUT JESUS CHRIST assumes that all people everywhere are sinners. Two places speak of confession as a serious statement: 1 John 1:9- speaking to BELIEVERS for FORGIVENESS OF SINS and BEING CLEANSED OF THEM because God is faithful and just, faithful to those belonging to him, etc. Under the former covenant of LAWS Israel was LIVING AND DYING UNDER, AS HER JUDGE, they were to confess their sins and excerscise some aspect of the provisional sacrifices under the SPECIFIED LAW to COVER their sin. 1 John 1:9 is CLEARLY a provision under the COVENANT we, as born again believers, have concerning our sins- we do not PRACTICE SINNING, but we can and do sin. Paul explains this conflict between the FLESH AND THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELLING US in Galatians 5, for example. Also, see Romans 5-8 for more understanding. The other place that is important concerning confession is Romans 10 where Paul is speaking about the Nation Israel/Isralites. Verses 9 and 10 use the word confess JESUS AS LORD FOR SALVATION- without any discussion one can CLEARLY see that it does not say CONFESS SIN/SINS to be saved. The discussion or rightly dividing of these verses require a little bit of information outside of these 2 verses as well as within them. 1) Paul says in verse 9: because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10: For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.- NRSV (nrsv because it is in a Greek interlinear I use to analyze Greek verb's tense/voice/mood). The argument here is only about the preposition-eis- translated for, which is meaning one is then moved towards salvation after believing Jesus was raised from the dead and acknowledging (confessing) that he is Lord. Notice, however, in verse 10 one is JUSTIFIED ( received GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS per Romans 3:21ff) already righteous for believing. The preposition-eis- also means because of; at; upon, in; against, etc. (see A. T. ROBERTSON's GREEK GRAMMER... on this preposition- see Matt. 12:41 for repentance of the Ninevehites-at- the preaching of Jonah for 1 ex.) 2) In 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verse 3- one can only call Jesus Lord by the Spirit. Paul is speaking about people who have God's Spirit in them. They are already born again, calling Jesus Lord. see 1 Corinthians chapter 2 as well where Spiritual words, discerned and perceived as well, can only happen if God's Spirit is in you. Regardless of the argument one makes, there is only instructions to believe in Jesus, having repented( changed one's mind and turned FROM WICKEDNESS TO GOD- and righteousness thereby) and believe with faith the message about Christ Jesus and believe in him! NOT 1)admit 2) believe 3) confess, or any thing else added! The GOSPEL IS GOD'S POWER FOR SALVATION- either obey or disobey as is INSTANTIATED in the EPISTLES ADDRESSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST, SPECIFICALLY.
So how do you distinguish your view from Pelagianism? By Pelagianism, I mean this:
-Pelagius believed that the giving of the gospel itself was grace
-The advent of Christ was grace, and the preaching of the gospel itself is grace.
-That the sinfulness of man *does not* consist in a bent towards evil or indwelling evil desires, but simply describes the fact that men sin.
-The Spirit does not need to operate on the heart to call forth faith, but the preaching of the gospel sufficiently is the work of the Spirit.
If these propositions constitute Pelagianism, how does your view differ?
Dr Flowers : also move beyond Calvinism to also teach the other topics of God like Sanctification etc.. we all need more honest teaching on God His glory and the means n inner workings of salvation
Joh 1:9-13 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Wesley used John 1:9 to teach Jesus gives prevenient grace to all people at at birth. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. God has chosen by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Romans 10:17 unregenerate man cannot hear - that is the point
You said that Gods image means that we can choose between good and evil.
Are you saying that God can choose between good and evil (sin) ?
How can God choose evil when he cannot be tempted with evil ?
Man was made in God's image, but that image was marred by sin. Man's sin hasn't marred God.
He is theoretically able to choose evil (because He has free will) but He doesn't because He is good (that's His eternal and unchanging nature).
There is no way in which you could get God to do evil, that's why He cannot be tempted with evil.
If you try, He will always respond with what is good.
Calvin's forbidden fruit
Hebrews 11:6 the verbs come and seek are both active verbs. I'll give Pope Calvin a D . His intentions might have been decent but his grasp of grace is zero. His biblical knowledgeable totally limited. Why yall let this worship of Pope Calvin continue I have no idea. Rebuke the followers of Pope Calvin and move on
Men often take their imagination for their heart;
and they believe they are converted as soon as they think they are converted
Blaise Pascal 1620
I cannot stand Protestant or Catholic I never talked to a Protestant that I agreed with set producers are off to because they have the believe in works at of Grace you don't have to be loving the only one I found is orthodox One Church in the Protestant religion is Right separate my friend Robert breaker is a good pastor only read from the King James let me think let me know about what you what I said
It’s sad to me that he spends his energy on this channel mostly to shoot down calvinism. It’s seems that this man has been so hurt that he spend’s his life refuting Calvinism, thus, he can even enjoy the beauty of other doctrines of Christianity.
This is logically fallacious because it assumes (without warrant) that this channel depicts every aspect of Flowers christian life. Its like if I judge Dave Chappelle on his stand up:
"its sad that his show is only about humor when there are so many more aspects to human life.."
Nonsense
@@eew8060 Friend, my comment is not without warrant.
1. the name of the Channel is "soteriology101.
2. perhaps I should have been more specific in saying, "he spends his energy on youtube mostly (perhaps only) regarding the refutation of calvinism. In other words, if you see my first sentence, you see in what context
1a. Take for instance his playlist on the channel. I was tired of counting so I stopped. It is undeniable that the bulk of this channel is spent towards refuting Calvinism. To say otherwise is simply untrue.
3. Your example of David Chappelle falls apart when considering that my post which said, "its sad to me that this channel is only to take shots towards calvinism." I was not talking about the entire life of the man, but rather making an observation towards the evidence already presented. That is called the "straw-man" fallacy. Please dont misrepresent what I am saying, and then pretend that you have refuted my statement.
4. Can you tell me what the name of the fallacy is that I have formally committed? Just because you call something a fallacy, doesn't make it so. therefore, I would ask that you tell me the name of the fallacy I have committed so that I can keep from doing so again. If not, then that is on you.
So, to my original comment I will say this to further preface what my original comment was.
It is so sad to me that the owner of the channel, soteriology101, devotes the bulk of his channel to refuting a soteriological stance that he disagrees with, as to miss the opportunity to share deep theological truths to those who are Christians in other doctrinal areas.
with respect E.E., I don't think you tried to understand my comment. Please check your pride.
@@Parks179-h
Lol.. well its just silly to call a channel called "soteriology 101" 'sad' because it talks about soteriology. My analogy stands. Why go see Dave Chappelle do comedy if you're gonna complain he doesn't talk about jobs and does too many jokes??
@@Parks179-h
If I had a channel against abortions called "unborn lives 101" would you complain that I don't care about born lives? If I like cheerios you'd say 'what about corn flakes?'
Lol.. Flowers cares about Soteriology and he has an anti-reformed channel. He can do that...
Please do a video on John macArther rebuking Beth Moore. I’d love to hear your input.
I see why this discussion needs to happen for some people who are mired up in 5pt Calvinism. But all I know is this: the same night I opened my bible and began to see, prior to that I did not want to open my bible or see. Proving what Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. So it was a few days later when the Holy Spirit opened my heart to the conviction of my sin. But up until that time I was reading the bible AND understanding it! I felt it was washing me clean of filth and wanted to read more and more. Conclusion: dead people don't do that. I'll leave all the fine points of theology to the rest of you who want to delve into it.
John Piper does not say he believes in pre-faith regeneration rather he read out Olson book on "Against Calvinism" after his reading he clearly mentioned the pages number as well. You misrepresent him.
Can salvation be lost in provisionism?
Ephesians 1:13-14
Exodus 32:33
Thanks, Dan and John.
@@jonathanestrada9729 John q public is trolling, quoting scripture devoid of context. His verse will be unhelpful at best.
@@Dropaprayer I can see that now. Thanks.
Well done Leighton. You found a Calvinist who at least at one time could spell Arminianism most of the time they write it down when preparing without the 'min' in middle and describe it more like Arianism.
I can’t understand how you keep missing the decisive factor. Do humans, of their own capacity and without any transforming work of grace within their nature, have the capacity to turn to faith? How do we respond?
This is the heart of Pelagian question. Scripture distinguishes between those who hear and those who receive grace which actually produces inward faith and a positive response. Who we are Paul tells us: “as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.””
-Romans 3:10-12
We each have a “mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.”
-Romans 8:7
For those who believe, though, we are those who believed “who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
-John 1:12-13. The Spirit causes men and women to be born again, blowing wherever he wills (John 3:3-8). All whom the Father has given to the Son will come to him and he prays for those alone: ““I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word... For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.”
-John 17:6, 8-10
This is our ultimate problem. In sin, we are wholly incapable of inclining ourselves above our sinful condition. As Luther said, if this is the case, then part of us did not need a Savior, part of us requires no regeneration-it is above Christ himself-nor is there part of us which is subordinate to the devil. And so we, of ourselves, conquer both Christ and the Devil. But if course this isn’t so-all of us must be redeemed from the pervasive effects of sin, which render us altogether lost and helpless. God does not merely tell us of this, but actually enacts our redemption, bringing forth faith as an impossible gift of his grace.
I'm a proud Semi-Pelagian.
I am a grateful Christian.
Semi Pelagian is Man works first, Then God finishes
Calvinism is a lie from the pit of hell, so avoid.
I say this civilly and respectfully: the "provisionist" view of the human condition after the fall is actually a higher form of arminianism than classical arminianism. The human will is elevated to a level that sucks virtually all the meaning out of spiritual death (Eph 2:1) and enmity against God. It is closer to Pelagius's view of the human will than anything. Original sin and total depravity have been called the most empirically verifiable doctrines in the Bible because of the obvious, ravinous, relentless human proclivity toward sin and away from anything to do with a thrice holy God. Owen has said that one can be saved by the very doctrines that he denies. Which, I think, is the case with Leighton and the need for the new birth before exercising saving faith
I would encourage you to rethink what Eph 2:1 says. It says nothing about spiritual death. It says, "YOU" were dead. Can you find anywhere in scripture where it teaches that our spirit can be dead and yet we are still alive? James says the body without the spirit is dead. We cannot live w/o a spirit in us.
Eph 2:1 says we are dead in sins and trespasses. Rom 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness." It is our body that is dead because of sin. Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. We will die physically because we have all sinned.
I think we would both agree that Eph 2:1 is referring to those who do not have God's Spirit in them. Therefore, if you are saying that our bodies are dead because we are w/o God's Spirit and, by extension, do not have eternal life, then I would agree with you. And how do we get God's Spirit? Peter preached that we are to repent and be baptized and then we will receive the Holy Spirit. Thankfully, we all have the ability to accept or reject Peter's preaching. God is not to blame if we reject his Holy Spirit. Have a good day.