Harry Potter and The Time Turner Problem
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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Narrated & Edited by @dcmihatepie
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SOURCES
The podcast that started the whole thing: unattendedcons...
Matthew O’Mara’s 2014 write-up was a great entry for my research and helped me start plumbing physics journals for answers,
matthewomara.c...
www.iap.fr/eas/...
arxiv.org/abs/h...
FURTHER READING & BIBLIOGRAPHY
This Vulture article explains the problem with the Cursed Child (I didn’t cover it in the video because it would’ve been a twenty minute rant), www.vulture.com...
Who is Gellert Grindelwald: harrypotter.wik...
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![Percy Weasley Had A Time Turner [Harry Potter Theory]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PqpA5YOVD2Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Interestingly enough, the whole time turner business isn't really all that illogical, because it can brush off any critizism with determinism/fate. The time travel in the 3rd book is a closed loop, but it's not constructed by the people within the loop. Harry and Hermione don't CREATE the loop by carefully choosing their actions accordingly. Instead they simply ARE in the loop from the very start. Fate creates the path they have to walk on and they simply do so.
Time turners are no practical wizard tool. They are tools of fate, used to push wizards on the paths they have to be on. Hermione doesn't choose to use the time turner to be in all her classes at once. Instead fate says Hermione has to be in all her classes at once, so it provides her with a time turner to achieve this. The ultimate answer for time travel related problems in a story without time travel paradoxes is usually "fate did it".
This also means, that asking for the use of a time turner is rather pointless, because people don't technically "use" time turners for there own goals. It's rather fate using us to achieve it's own "goals". This also answers the question why someone would give Hermione a time turner: If she doesn't get one, there would be a paradox, so fate has to find a way.
Hadn't thought about the fate angle. Makes some sense, and the Harry Potter universe has plenty of cogent evidence to support fate is a thing (i.e. chosen one, deathly hallows). Most of my research turned up the same conclusion about the Novikov loop being supported by Harry saving himself - though there's a big argument for that not necessarily being the case because the hippogriff didn't need to survive for harry to save himself, so there's a bit of wiggle room on how the loops function
It’s the only explanation that makes sense. It’s also scary and fascinating. I hope Rowling realised this.
Though that creates a problem through quantum physics. By Harry having used the time turner to save himself in the past from death, it creates this causal loop in which Harry is fated to save himself from death in the future. Like you said, Fate finds a way.
But this creates another problem, It would be totally fine if Hermione went back and saved Harry, but the fact Harry did it himself creates a Loop. Harry should have died, but he was saved by himself from death making him not die and be able to go back later on and save his past self.
But this happening is because fate willed it so? No. In order to create a causal loop, either someone has to implant it from a different "timeline" OR it creates itself. If it creates itself, which is what it is believed to have happened, it means that it was able to be placed in that specific time because there was the POSSIBILITY do be placed there, just as there was the possibility to not be placed there, or to have different events take place. Just like there is the possibility to create a LOOP at ANY and ALL points in time, in fact, there are loops created in every point in time. If a single loop is allowed to create itself, all loops are allowed to create themselves, and Harry's journey is merely a path sown through choices which benefit the hero's path in accumulate into what we see and the ending we get.
But in fact, everything we saw did happen, but at the same time everything else happened as well. OR in other words, everything we saw didn't happen and nothing else did. It's a problem caused by the causal loop. We see it take effect and from then on we don't clearly see any more loops in the movies/books but, it by no means at all, doesn't mean they aren't there, we just aren't seeing them clearly because the path woven is one that benefits the protagonist. Every choice was both made and not made, every act was both taken and not taken, every person was both killed and not killed, every single moment had a the POSSIBILITY of having a causal, and every moment either HAD a causal loop or DIDN'T HAVE one. That is the effect that a a causal loop creating itself has in time. So, undeniably, Harry has both beaten voldemort and lost to him, and every other possible occurrence, but we were only shown a single one of these endings.
Basically by that single loop existing, it proves the existence of EVERY single other loop and different "timelines", and Harry's story is merely a path woven through favorable choices in order to create A wished ending where he wins.
I think to disprove these theories on fate and restore the usefulness of a time turner in a universe which doesnt allow multiple timelines is to just make a rule that you cant change history. This adheres to what hermione does and also what most fiction focusing on time travel requires.
Now how is this useful beyond allowing one to study? Well, you simply need to take actions whose effects will only be seen after the time that you originated from.
Ex: voldemort shoots harry in the face with a gun. Go back in time, polyjuice some unwitting, unliked slytherin into harry potter, use an instant apparate / disapparate spell to replace harry with fake harry when the gun is fired and voldy is blinded by muzzle flash, and voila, youve changed your time despite not having changed anything. If thats too complex, perhaps you couldve put blanks in the gun and small squibs on harrys head, killed voldemort in his sleep and made the shooting a shared hallucination for onlookers, etc. There are so many ways to change events without changing the experience of onlookers.
But if we are going to be super strict and really say you cant change anything (impossible because youre chemically interacting with the environment but whatever), you can still learn things, and not just in school. Just looking at my job right now, if my boss catches me watching youtube and writing whimsical comments, i could go back in time to read all my emails, prepare responses, do all my paperwork, and then, when i see my boss again, tell him some excuse like, 'heres all my finished work, i just couldnt send it because i had connection issues and was waiting for the it dept.' In voldys case, i guess sorry to dead harry, but thanks to the time turner, dumbledore could be standing right behind voldy with a knife, prepared to deliver retribution.
Thank you! (@GrayFalcony)
I could accept the time turner for what it was and did in the book. Except for one thing: it's a TIME turner, to travel in TIME, not a normal travelling device! So how could Rowling let Hermione and Harry appear in a *different place* in the past than where they were when they began using the time turner?!
At least in the movie they corrected this stupid error.
I mean, it’s magic, it could be all about intention as far as the book goes. The movie changes it for convenience
But you have to do something first before you do it the second time. And in prisoner of Azkaban they don’t do it the first time so how do they re do the second and third.
This has been driving me crazy!!!!!
There is no "first time" it's a loop. For example, you lose your phone then go back in time and take your phone making you lose your phone in the first place. There is no free will in this version of time travel. SOMETHING will happen to prevent you from actually changing the past even if you know what's going to happen. This is the most logical version of time travel, even though this could never happen, because it doesn't create paradoxes like the grandfather paradox in back to the future. It's just a simple loop and nothing more.
@@austinbyrd4164 yeah but that still doesn't work. Harry gets saved by himself when we read it in the book, afterwards he travels back in time and saves himself again. He couldn't have been saved by anything else but himself who had gone back in time so it's an infinite loop of Harry's who had gone back in time. It's a terrible system. It has more implications but I'll leave those aside
@@smoshbooz Yes....it's an infinite unchangeable loop....what's wrong with that? That's cool and balanced.
@@austinbyrd4164 no that sucks. It means the future doesn't matter and no one is in control of their actions. Nothing is at stake. By the point we get to the fight etc in the book it has already happened an infinite amount of times before so it doesn't involve any risk.
Why did he begin to talk about John Williams' compositions at 0:19, and then completely change subjects?
Just for ignoring the proble of the topic.
I never understood how everything effects their present selves except saving buck break, she throws the rock in the house and this then warns there past selves to leave hagrids however buck beak still dies even though they both saved him. Everything is effected except buck beak.
Buckbeak never died, in the movie when they show him being “killed” it was really the executioners being mad that he escaped and axing into one of Hagrids pumpkins which they show at the end of the movie
What are you talking about ? Buck beak never died. Before the time turner sequence, the trio only thought buck beak died, we never actually see it
@@sarika777 omg Thankyou so much for explaining nicely I genuinely thought that was then just cutting away not to show it if you get what I mean
@@sarika777 really? I never saw this before. I was confused, but thanks for this.
@@sophieshields3737 np haha
I totally agree. It doesn't make sense.
so... for example, in the movie the kids are using time travel to save the Hipogryph. So they go outside the Hagrid hut and they throw a rock inside in order to distract the people inside from going outside and killing the Hypogryph. The problem is that in the scene before they go back in time, the stone has already been thrown in the hut. So 1) what's the point of going back in time in order to throw a rock, considering that the stone has already been thrown? 2) if the rock is already been thrown inside before time travel, why the Hypogryph is not already saved . (consider that the action that led to the save of Hypogryph was the throw of the stone)
I have ended friendships because people wouldn't understand that stuff.
Yeah..it took me a while but I think it's cos they had to relive it again. Bc if they didnt go back in time to throw the rock then the rock wouldn't have been thrown in the first place? Idk time travel hurts my head
Because it's a loop. It's kinda circular logic. The rock is thrown because Hermione and Harry used the time turner and were there to throw it so when they go back in time, they throw the rock... It really just goes round and round. All this is a really complicated mess of physics and general relativity.
Also Hermione didn't throw the rock to distract Fudge and the executioner. She threw it to draw Harry's attention to the window and realise Fudge is coming so they can get out.
@@thewateringwiz7118 so what happenes is the 1st timeline before they go back in time. There was supposed to be no rock trowing because they still havent gone back in time. Did they get cought? Thats my problem with this movie. There has to be a very 1st timeline.
@@wesleyaquino8021 No, that's the whole point with the circular logic. In the "1st timeline" you speak about there always was 2 Harry and Hermione. The trio was able to see Fudge and co. coming because time traveling Harry and Hermione were there to throw the rock. They were there to throw the rock because they had been able to be warned thanks to the rock thrown, it's self-fulfilling.
I know it seems really complicated but this isn't the kind of event where you can't lay everything down in one timeline with a starting point and an end. There's always a time traveling Harry and Hermione who are there to warn the trio (if you want to think about loops or alternate universes). There never was a "Harry, Hermione and Ron get caught" at Hagrid's hut
@@thewateringwiz7118 That's incorrect and it's also not self fulfilling. Self fulfilling is knowing an event will happen, but your actions ended up causing it to happen despite your intentions to avoid the outcome of that event. The issue with this is the first timeline would not have 2 at all. You have to create the loop in the first place in order to have 2 Harry and Hermione to exist in the time frame in the first place. But since Harry saved himself from an event where he definitely should have died, that means the events of the first timeline never happened in this loop.
All I wanted to know was will it effect there age
Probably yes but in the 3rd book is nothing explained yet so not in the 3rd book. But later expkanation do not afect to hermione.
Not really, you’re adding maybe 2 months to your year at most spread out significantly, it’s not a lot of extra time overall.
awesome video
My problem with a closed loop is since everything has already happened is there a reason to use it anyway? This honestly felt like a stupid device since if they never had the decision to use it nothing has would have changed anyway so by default there is no reason to use it in the first place.
it can be useful even if it doesn't change anything. Like Hermione using it to attend multiple classes or harry saving himself.
Of course they needed to use it in order maintain the time loop. If Harry and Hermione didn't go back to save Sirius and Buckbeak - even though theye were saved already - they would have faced unforseen consequences. Probably their choice to use it was deterministic, but they experienced it as their own decision, because they didn't know that Sirius and Buckbeak is saved already. It is possible that these timeloops are always based on the travelers false sense of decision and their lack of knowledge about the situation, hence time turner is more like a device to maintain the time loop, than the cause of it. You can look at it, as a tool of fate.
@@whynot5757 but why go back and do things like the patronus and the wolves howl if those had already happened no perceptive changed you heard a howl lead lupin away and saw a patronus charm save Harry and black
@@benarthur5365 They did not go back in order to cast the patronus and to do the howl. They went back, to save Buckbeak, because they were not aware, that Buckbeak is saved already. But then they realized that they have to save themselves too, when they have travelled back already. This way the time turner lured them into the loop in order to maintain it.
Hermione and Harry would never have NOT used the time turner. It was "fate".
I don’t understand how Hermione appears in her classes without walking in. She does it twice and Ron points it out. Even using a time turner, she would still need to walk into the class. Like if she went to one class, finished it and then used the time turner to go back an hour then walked to a different classroom. She would still need to walk into the room?
That was probably a little joke or sneaky reference/clue that she was using the time turner. She's just being cautious as another her is also walking around
All I wanted to know was will it effect there age
@@weebtrash9862 if it’s used for a long period, yes. You would age more quickly due to using it but hermione only used it for a school year, for a few hours a day, it’s not going to do much damage. If anything, she’s probably a month or so older than she would have been had she not used it.
i still hate time travel even in my favorite stories like terminator and star ocean 2
Yes and the concept of alternative time lines and time traveling betwen time lines and futures is completly fucked up after the 5 th movie and the series and nothing make any sens.
Time Turner costs the user Time going back and coming forward. It Costs the user to much for what it might provide in a prize.
Harry Potter is not the Bootstrap Paradox, actually.
This channel is extremely high quality and deserves more subs. Keep up the amazing work!
I have a dumb question but what’s the music called in the background? The slow piano music.
Where you get all those hot thumbnails tho. That's the real question here.
I feel they won’t address time travel in a more realistic way, because the time turner is based on magic not physics like Back to the Future and Endgame
Like the last two make any sense
Hi Harry potter is now on Gryffindor.
Great video David! But also thanks for bringing up this paradox/problem with the time turner. I didn't realise this when i watched the movies
joep Coumans I noticed my head hurt almost the whole movie
Yeah its only a closed loop for short trips to the past, 5 hours is the specified secure and safe period that time remains constant. The time turner Hermione used was limited to 5 hour shifts so this is like cloning yourself rather than time travel. However any travel beyond that has severe repercussions on a witch or wizard and fundamentally alter what has happened in the past (AKA The illegal time turner from cursed child) however this travel is far more dangerous to the temporal fabric of the universe and can create parralel timelines or the flashpoint paradox and follows principles similar to DC comics time travel story's. If I recall correctly one of the Harry potter games was Basicly legends of tomorrow but in the harry potter universe where the players went around fighting anachronisms to prevent time from being altered to much and save the world in the process.