The F and M Swap is Good, Actually
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- Опубликовано: 16 мар 2024
- Throughout the deinterlining series, I realized I don't have a solid position on the F and M swap. So, let me set the record straight by saying the F and M swap is good, actually.
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The swap would be good. As a frequent QBL commuter, I've noticed that E and F train frequencies have gotten noticeably faster compared to before the 63 St tunnel closure.
63 street tunnel is most likely to open on April 1st! With that said, EVERY single signature matters! I don’t want to come back to those random 18 minute gaps in F trains while I see three E trains pulling into Roosevelt Ave.
if you see planned service changes on the m and f lines on april 8 you will see that northern blvd will be closed. with that says m trains serve this station weekdays and something like that. so yea.
The F & M Swap is a great idea! The only thing is delineating the whole QBL would be very tricky. I agree swapping the N with the R in Queens, but the main reason they did this swap in the 60s was due to the R having no direct yard access on either end of the line. That's why the R goes to Forest Hills (access to Jamaica Yard) and the N goes to Astoria (has access to Coney Island Yards). This could be solved by extending the Astoria Line to LaGuardia. They can build a yard by the Astoria Power Plant (where Astoriaborialis happened) and build a decently sized yard. It was proposed in the 90s but NIMBYs won and the project was scrapped. This plan can be revisited, but knowing the neighborhood, it will never see the light of day.
title: the f and m swap is good
me: no s**t bro
It is decent.
At least with the current ridership, this is the best way to start getting back capacity.
However, once the ridership returns back to pre-COVID levels, it would be best to take the deinterlining even further (have the F and M go together as locals at QBL, boot the R, and have the E and another 8th Avenue service take over the QBL express).
May work, though would have to add trains between new 8av service and everything having to run past 71av. Can take some from W with replacement R now running to Astoria.
@@Metsfan7232 I'd say to just run the local services to 179th Street. Not only does it have the capacity to take the locals, but it would also encourage expansion of the express tracks northeast of 179th Street to Bartow Avenue, especially if QueensLink comes in. Once QueensLink comes in and a yard in Northern Ditmars is built, we can boot Broadway service off entirely, and we can add the G back into QBL Local. It might seem like a nightmare with three local trains [F, G, and M/V], but give them equal capacity at around 12TPH each, and you might be cooking something.
@@shadowtoad95not really
@@omariehill796 why not?
I live at the 53rd street stop, I have noticed a huge improvement having the F train back here and I didn’t know why. Thanks for articulating it. Super interesting!
It's not just good, it's GREAT. Having 2 expresses on 53rd makes the CBTC process easier and allows for smoother operations at Queens Plaza.
The problem is with NYCT is that the leaders are stupid to break up something good and to take advice. Making the M a Full Time line via 63rd would cut away a lot of the delays from QBL....
Exactly but if you look at how CPW runs the B and C aren’t there late nights and the same kind of story applies on QBL with the M and R. If anything we can have the M serve QBL on Weekends to help out the R. Then you can have the F run on 63rd St on late nights only when the M is not running, and then on late nights make the E an express and the F the local so that JFK riders get an express train to their flights, plus local riders would still access 63rd St when the M isn’t there.
On CPW the A and D patterns on that line should be swapped so that the A can go express to Far Rockaway on both 8th Ave and CPW.
@@ReformpersonI think part of the reason why the F is express on QBL on the late nights has to do with the fact the F is a much longer line than the E is.
@@B345T1N355Official that is true as not many people ride the subway and that time that pattern can stay the same but on CPW the A should be Express 24/7 as that is a longer route than the D is, plus it can be 8th Ave Express too, to make the trip to Far Rockaway faster.
The MTA will not run the M train through the 63 St tunnel 24/7 because of a thing called “labor.” You can “CBTC” this and “CBTC” that all you want.
@@jaimerosado3896Why does labor have to ruin our commute?
Take a shot every time he says "a preference for 53rd Street...." 😂
When I lived in Fresh Meadows I would sometimes take the M in the evenings to avoid those crushing crowds and just transfer at 71st Street to an F. Added a couple more minutes to my overall commute but just to be in an open train made the commute bearable.
Making 36th St an express stop would definitely require major construction. That station only has outside platforms for the local tracks, and no cross-over switches east of the station to change between express and local before platforming westbound. Also, the express rejoins the local just before the station, so fitting cross-over switches might no be possible. If you did expand the station width to fit island platforms between the express and local tracks, without cross-over switches you'd still have trains for the same East River tunnel stopping across the platform from each other - not impossible to run but confusing for passengers. Given how much money MTA manages to spend on any major construction project, this one station might end up being pretty expensive. Worth considering, but it needs to be the best place to spend that money for improved service.
WASSUP. Also, I'm very glad you're beginning to upload much more often. Also, I am guessing that this a response to the video which you responded to about reverse branching. Anyways the F & M swap is supported by many people because it doesn't require both lines to switch tracks multiple times cuz it decreases capacities. Anyways good content!
We should definitely stop using pre covid 2019 ridership statistics. We won’t see those numbers for quite a few years.. and with work from home now a days and the 9-5 schedule no longer in full dominance (7-3,8-4,10-6&11-7 becomes more common for shifts now a days) we need to begin using 2023 statistics as the new way of life for ridership and location demands.
You definitely have a point, but according to the NYTimes, ridership in the outer boroughs like Queens resemble more like 2019 ridership which is why I am using 2019 ridership.
@@jointransitassociation yeah bro I feel you because that’s where essential workers mostly live at.
100% swap the F and M. F and F at 53rd & Lex worked well before. Also, that provides great frequency to Manh. for G riders transferring at Court Sq.
To avoid confusion, do not mention other, more difficult interlining possibilities.
BTW: exiting transfer passengers at Roosevelt Ave. may provide more room, causing some riders to stay on locals, which really are not much slower.
If you swap the F and M you can gap a Romeo at queens plaza to allow the M to enter 36th st. If service was to be increased on queens blvd then you have to expand Jamaica Yard to get off hour layups off the mainline from Union Tpke to 169. The BMT part of the Romeo needs to be looked at as well. Maybe swapping with the Astoria Nancy.
At 13:17 there is a lot of very good things and I like them all the only flaw is the B pattern as it would have to run 8 car trains causing crowding. The better solution for this is by sending that via Sea Beach and the D would go to Bay Ridge. This way both lines would have full 10 car trains. The R on West End is something I heavily support and with that we have the R touch Astoria as well.
In term we have the following fixed
(B): Inwood- 207th Street to Coney Island via Sea Beach
(D): Norwood- 205th St to Bay Ridge- 95th St
(N): Forest Hills to Brighton Beach
(Q): 96th St- 2nd Ave to Coney Island
(R): Astoria Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island via West End
At 15:59 the K route is not needed as it defeats the purpose of having the C, if anything the best thing is to have the C run on QBL to 179th St leaving the E pattern alone for most of it.
Complete Deinterlined QBL
(C): Jamaica- 179th St to Lefferts Blvd or the Rockaways
(E): Jamaica Center- Parsons Archer to Euclid Ave
(F): Forest Hills to Coney Island
(M): Forest Hills to Metropolitan Ave.
Also this means that on the Fulton St line the C would now become an Express, giving the line 3 express corridors. This also means that the C would now replace the A east of Euclid Ave, plus the C has gone past Euclid a few time when the gaps of the A line were big, but this time the C would serve Lefferts and the Rockaways permanently under this plan.
They could possibly move some of the R211T sets to the M so that, even though two of the cars wouldn't platform east of Essex, the conductor can lock those doors and only open those that platform so riders can move more easily to those doors
@@jsn683 that’s not a bad idea plus the M would be able to carry more people with the open gangways. They can even look at ordering a bit more for the R as well, so that the M and R get R211Ts, as they get crowded on QBL most of the time, and the R cannot handle the local service on QBL alone.
I learn more and more about the transit system watching these videos. The MTA needs someone like you when it comes to these ideas.
Thinking about outbound travel from Manhattan to Queens, the swap simplifies things so that you go to 53rd Street if you want express and to 63rd Street if you want local.
1:43 Technically, the IND Queens Boulevard Line begins on the lower platform of 50th Street-8th Avenue in Manhattan. The line on 53rd Street that the E and M run on is part of the QBL.
The F and M swap makes perfect sense. Not sure why one needs to do a petition to suggest it. If the folks at the MTA were to use logic, the swap is quite simple and minimal. Queens plaza is a disaster at rush hour.
It's the way it was forever until the F was sent through the 63rd St. tunnel. I think it's a return to normal.
Plus the local will still have 6ave service. Plus merges out of the way
I wouldn't mind to have the M full time on the whole 63rd Street Line if the F were to stay on 53rd Street, but that's only if the M were full time on the whole 63rd Street Line. For god sake I HATE this ongoing F and M service change where the F is on 53rd Street but weekday M trains only go to 57th Street-6th Avenue, and service is heavily adjusted between Lexington Avenue-63rd Street and 21st Street-Queensbridge.
Logistically, it wouldn't be a good idea considering the M Train only runs through Manhattan and Queens(twice) on weekdays and the F train runs at all times, in effect, there probably wouldn't be enough M trains to operate there on weekends. It's all about operating costs and staffing issues.
Swap the (F) and (M) lines this April, MTA! Let the (F) Trains run along the 53rd Street Tunnel on weekdays and on the 63rd Street Tunnel during weekday evenings, late nights, and weekends. Let the (M) Trains run along the 63rd Street Tunnel during weekdays when they're running in/out of Forest Hills-71st Avenue in Queens. This important subway swap is what QBL riders have been wanting to see happened for more than 2 decades and it's also the most needed one that's been long overdue.
Option 3 Complete Deinterline -- QBL Express via 53 St is the ideal scenario, and would enable 30 TPH Local service, but you're right that it does require some capital investment. 36 St conversion isn't required if an infill is built at Northern and 41 Av, or vise versa, as there would then be two redundant transfer points.
However, I think your analysis has overlooked one key station: 7 Av - 53 St. That station offers a reverse cross platform transfer to the 6 Av Express that mitigates for the loss of service on the curve at 30Rock, and helps "distribute the load" as you put it.
Breaking QBL into the zones you defined, and assuming no 41 Av infill or 36 St conversion, then 7 Av would provide the following options for accessing 6 Av:
Western Zone: Local (F) trains offer one-seat-rides via 63 St. Queens Plaza and Court Sq riders would transfer at 7 Av.
Middle Zone: Roosevelt Av and Forest Hills Express riders would take (E) via 53 St and transfer once at 7 Av. Local riders in-between would have two options: transfer at Roosevelt then again at 7 Av, or remain on their slower Local train for a one-seat-ride.
Eastern Zone: I'll assume that an Rush Hour Express is offered via Hillside Av Express tracks at 15 TPH, a branch of the main (E) service via Archer Av at another 15 TPH, for combined 30 TPH QBL Express (or higher as you've mentioned). Archer Av riders going to 6 Av would have their trip unaltered from today, except they'd prefer to transfer at 7 Av rather than "step back" into a following F train at Roosevelt or Union turnpike. Hillside Local riders would be able to transfer to Express at Sutphin Blvd or Union Turnpike, then again at 7 Av; riders from those stations would have an Express train available and only transfer at 7 Av.
.........
The 41 Av/36 St options would take pressure off of 7 Av, but wouldn't reduce the number of transfers each rider would make on their trip, only move them into Queens, since Western Zone riders would be the only ones *not* transferring onto QBL Express in the first place to eventually get to 6 Av.
Also, I disagree that 53 St service should be routed via 8 Av Express, as you've depicted in your diagram. The "Horseshoe (E)," as I call it, via Fulton St was something I once advocated for, until I realized that it would add at least half an hour to the round-trip runtimes for Far Rockaway trains, and also remove direct Express service between Inwood, CPW, and Lower Manhattan. In effect it punishes journey-times for those latter riders, with no discernable benefit -- except that Concourse riders then *retain* Express service to 6 Av, rather than being relegated to CPW Local.
To enable 30+ TPH QBL Express service without the restriction at WTC, then in a full deinterlining scenario the (E) should be routed via 8 Av Local then *Rutgers* and *Culver* to take advantage of short-stop capacity on that line, with the (M) rerouted to Nassau St, and full-time (E) Culver Express service, with a deinterlined (G) serving Culver Local -- assuming Bergen St Lower Level has been rehabilitated and made ADA Accessible. In this scenario, 6 Av Local and QBL Local would have direct access to WTC, which could be a boon for (L) riders transferring at 14 St.
The F/M switch makes sense but the M should run all times with the E restored to QBL express service overnite. The problem with the N/R switch is you eliminate the Lex/59 transfer to QBL, which will be hugely problematical. Prior to 1954, maximum headways were being run on the E&F and the E and F had to merge not only at 5th Avenue/53rd Street but also at West 4th Street. There's no reason they can't solve the merging challenges today, especially with new signalling.
I think the best service pattern could be this…
Weekdays AND weekends the M to Forest Hills via 63rd Street and the F on 53rd Street.
Late nights either that same pattern but just some minor adjustments with the E and F, OR the F just goes on 63rd during late nights.
The IND 63rd street line needs 24/7 service regardless just like the IND 53rd street line, F and M swap is a bad choice, reason being is because the M doesn't run it's full length 24/7 like the E and F, sorry peeps, no can do here, LOL!!!
You are correct that would make 51st Street on the Eastside line even crowded which is why they have the 63rd Street line connect to it at Lexington Avenue 63rd Street on the IRT Maps 59th Street on the Eastside IRT.
@@EpicThe112 Yess, yess, you are correct, too!!!
The solution would be to extend the 24 hour 🟠 M Train service east to some point in Queens. 👑 👑 👑
I do understand where you’re coming from. However, I do have to ask you this: Isn’t that the case with a lot of the lines in the New York City Subway?
The B, C, M, R, 3, 5, and W trains don’t run their full routes all the time. That is true.
However, you do have to realize that there are other services that take over operation. Like the A, E, F, N, 2, and 4 trains. Even if the M doesn’t run during the late night, the E and F trains serve local stations, and the F will have to serve 63rd Street. JTA is aware of that.
Dueing weekends, M trains should be extended to Forest Hills, as that will help local frequencies better. But using the fact that the M train doesn’t run it’s full route 24/7 is not a very good counter-argument.
@@theforgottenone32100 Actually, ridership on the M during weekends is not there, so there's no point of them going to Forest Hills, the G would do better instead!!
Under your plan with M-train QBL service on the weekend, would there be two M trains, one running between Middle Village and Bushwick and the other on QBL, or would weekend M service run from Middle Village to QBL? Great video!
The M should do 63rd! We Have A Romeo to go local between Queens Plaza and Forest Hills; the M causes tense bottlenecks at Queens Plaza and plus people need direct service to local stops on Queens Boulevard as well for 63rd Street.
The platform conductors with the Flashlights assisting with the train doors especially at Lex-53rd at rush hrs with E-M service platforms were still crowded. They were even more crowded with both E-F stopping hence the change. If pre-pandemic ridership returns or Congestion Pricing, the M may return to 53rd St after 63rd St work is done.
I would not like the M heading back to 53rd Street. That is some capacity crunch right there. Instead, I am hoping we can convert 36th Street to an express station and Queens Plaza can have a new interchange at Northern Boulevard-41st Avenue, then we can split both 6th Avenue services and 8th Avenue services, them being local and expresses respectively.
@@shadowtoad95The Authority may want to secure $1-3B in Capital Plan Funding to convert 36th St (Northern Blvd) to an Express Station (being a lightly used station that would be hard), along with Eminent Domain for the factory, apartments and gas station. There is a capacity crunch, but it was something The Authority was able to deal with Monday-Friday.
Not necessarily. The E and M train loads are extremely imbalanced, with the E train being packed and the M train being empty. This means more people are on the platforms waiting for the next E train, not the next train in general. But having the F, also an express run on 53rd, riders will more likely take the next train that shows up. This helps clear crowds at 53rd St.
The MTA, back in 1992, confirmed that this would be the case. They found that two expresses on 53rd would result in lower crowds that one express and one local. The reason why the selected the F train to go via 63rd was pretty much to make their money worth. That want to make it seem that the 63rd St Tunnel would have a ton of people going through it, and having the F, a crowded express, would be the perfect line to route through.
@@jointransitassociationOn the flip side, the M does provide relief on the platform as there are passengers from the 'E' train before still making their way out..as opposed to another heavy load of 'F' passengers making their way soon after. There are employees/retirees who can gladly explain why the 'F' didn't return to Lex-53rd..well after 63rd tunnel was finished..as it wasn't Roosevelt Island/QueensBridge politics.
@@BlimpCityFeeder
But they will be out after 2 minutes in time for the next train, because all of them are leaving. It is the people waiting on the platform during PM rush hours that the MTA cares about.
The entire F train via 63rd to relieve 53rd St is a myth. The MTA, in an EIS report from 1989 to 1992 admitted that to be the case.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the overcrowding thing: wasn't the F and the M set up in the original configuration to spread crowds off the overburdened QBL express lines when the 63rd Street connection opened? You say that wouldn't matter today, and in a post-Covid world, I agree, but the whole deal with the M's predecessor, the V, was that it was a local service trying to entice people into taking it instead of the express E since both went to 53rd street. Before then, the 53rd Street station(s) were dangerously overcrowded, and having the F take a detour, again, spread the load.
And there's a future elevator @ Northern Blvd station on the east side (56th St), soon.
Would this make it possible to terminate the g train at queens plaza to make for an easier transfer
The Q was the original line which went to Roosevelt Island and is also the first letter of Queens. So I would love to see the Q go to queens and the M go to upper Manhattan.
I said this on the nycrail subreddit and got downvoted to hell, followed by half the sub telling me I was a huge moron lol. I wish i had known about this video at the time so i could have linked it, you explained it perfectly.
I can see people transferring at Steinway St for Queens Plaza or 21 St-Queensbridge.
Ur channel is so on point it needs a intro video and exit/thank u section
I haven't lived in NY since the mid 70s. I used to take the E or F from 179th St. and they both used the same tunnel. So it looks like they are going back to the way it was. What happened to the EE and the RR?
The EE is basically the W train, except it goes to Astoria . The RR serves the same terminal as the EE and was renamed as the R.
MTA got rid of double letters in 1985
Definitely the E and F on 53rd st to stay, the M could do a termination at 21 st queensbridge and back to metropolitan av. G can definitely go back to QBL is the local with the R. Just a thought, if they actually build the queenslink which is necessary, then they can cut back the G to court sq and bring back the V on the link to rockaway park then run it local on QBL towards 6 av with the F to LES 2nd av 🤔
If the swap still remains, what would happen during the weekend if the (M) doesn't touch the 63rd St line stations, thus enabling them to see little to no service?
The F train will serve it.
I absolutely agree with the F and M swap. Swapping them both will genuinely help increase service on QBL.
I’m pretty unsure about sending the R to Astoria at all times. If anything, I would only have it run there with the N on weekends and late nights when the W doesn’t run (it will be able to share trains from Coney Island yard with the N there), and that the G takes its place on QBL (with full 10-car trains BTW! No more short 5-car trains). I would also have the R extended to Jamaica-179th Street with the F, while the M still terminates at Forest Hills. During weekends, the G may go to Jamaica-179th Street with the F. On late nights, the M will run there. E trains will run express at all times.
To sum it up:
(E): WTC to Jamaica Center (QBL Express all times)
(F): Coney Island to Jamaica-179th Street (QBL Express all times)
(G): Church Avenue to Court Square (extended to Jamaica-179th Street via QBL Local during weekends)
(M): Metropolitan Avenue to Forest Hills (QBL Local all times, extended to Jamaica-179th Street during late nights)
(R): Bay Ridge to Jamaica-179th Street (QBL Local on weekdays only, rerouted to Astoria during weekends and late nights)
Let me know what you think!
This probably isn't likely, but I'll throw it out anyway: could it feasible to put the E & F together again on 53rd Street, and move the R to 63rd? And extend the R to Jamaica Center, and extend the G as a local to 179th, and have the E and F as completely express between Queens Plaza and 179th?
It would be better for N to go via 63rd St because if the R was to go there, it would be another Herald Square merge. Also I would say that an express should go to Jamaica Center, as the R has a long route and Jamaica Center would limit its capacity to 12 tph because of the switch placement. Even Forest Hills has better output, despite it being a bad terminal. Also most Jamaica Center riders want express service to 53rd not 63rd St local service. One thing I do agree is extending locals to 179th St. This would allow the G, M, and R to run on QBL.
Plus the BEFORE they cut the 63rd for construction
the F runs MORE trains per hour than the E…
That was the real reason for splitting them up and giving the E priority on 53rd… you have GOOD idea but you might wanna relook at your numbers a bit more…
Here’s an idea…
You can have 3 Locals on QBL… R.M and I’m bringing the G back…
With the current situation now… the M doesn’t serve a purpose on QBL unless it’s flipped with the F…
And being that it’s NOT A 24/7 Line
Nights and Weekends the G can fit on QBL.. the E can run Express at night with the F… until the R is cut.. then it can run local with G
Pitch this to the MTA at its upcoming board and committee meetings.
NYCT committee meeting: 3/25
MTA board meeting: 3/27
I think The G running on QBL thoughts?
QBL locals terminate at Forest Hills, only allowing 20 tph on the local tracks. There is no space for the G to terminate without cutting the frequencies to QBL local. There are 3 options:
Queenslink (MTA and the Mayor doesn’t want to build this)
5th track at Forest Hills (somewhat expensive)
Extend locals to 179th St (you will get into a political fight)
@@darkgalaxyi_o_l_o_i7831 Yes you're totally right. What about this do you prefer the G running qbl or the M? I also think extending the M and R even the E and F further into queens wouldn't be so bad considering its probably the most underserved borough other than staten island.
@@cat5hurricanelorenzo880 I definitely want the G to run on QBL, but I also want to ensure that there is enough room for all 3 services to run on QBL.
Now let’s have A/C run local and have the E run express to Lefferts. C to Euclid and A train to WTC. Have H train run to Euclid from the Rockaways. A to 168 st. D to 207. C to to 205 and B to Beford with split peak direction express and local. Most of the riders on GC area is taking Jerome line anyways
Swapping the F and M trains should be done.
Also, how about a video on the practicality of converting local stations like 36th Street and Woodhaven Boulevard into express stations.
Woodhaven Boulevard is built to be converted. Before and after the station in both directions, there are provisions to allow the local trains to be diverted. The walls would be knocked down and the platform would be extended onto the current local tracks for express trains to stop at the station.
36th Street is unknown. It is built as a standard 4 track local station, but there are no provisions. I here the proposal get thrown around, but I haven't seen a concrete plan, but it would be more disruptive than converting Woodhaven Blvd.
I think the f is fine the way it is along 63rd Street and Vernon Express all times including late nights.
the F & M swap doesn’t make perfect sense as a person who lives on 63rd St, the M train never serves 10th and usually only runs 7-8tph. Off peak service is even worse as trains run every 5-6tph. The M train only going to forest hills and being local means that transferring to an express train 5 stations later adds a lot of waits on commute times. Also the 8 car trains won’t be able to handle 63rd St train crowds as they run every 7-8 minutes and are shorter trains. Also a lot of people go on the 63rd St line and this will create a reverse affect making roosevelt avenue very busy with people wanting to go to 63rd St from express trains and the infrequency of M train service causing the whole platform to be crowded
The ridership at 21st Street-Queensbridge and Roosevelt Island is nowhere near the E/F ridership east of 71st Avenue. Furthermore, demand for 53rd Street is higher.
I highly doubt that it'll create a reverse effect since it would be much easier to take the M into Manhattan than take the M to Roosevelt Avenue and battle the crowds to catch a Manhattan bound E or F.
I think the new housing has more bearing on this issue than you think. The housing was built because of the transit service within walking distance
I personally would just restore the EFGR on the QBL as it was two decades ago, but a lot of that is for nostalgic and "aesthetic" reasons.
This swap is a good idea. We will need weekend M Service On QBL Ofcourse
And Definitely with 6th Avenue too, trust me those F and R trains on weekends do get pretty busy and waits can be heavy, excuse the pun!
More Stations=Less crowding. The only thing I would hope for, is the stations having higher standards, via seating area, and I suppose vending machine locations but I already know this won't happen unfortunately. Cause MTA will always take the cheap route.
how would deinterline effect eastside bus rivership.
What about G train for QBL
Very nostalgic, but there QBL already has 4 different routes (E, F, M, R) and the G train already meets up with the F at Culver Line. What I would suggest is possibly extending the G train all the way to either Kings Highway or Coney Island so that the F train would run Culver Express service.
Extend the F Express to Kings Highway for faster service out and into Manhattan and Culver CBTC will help a lot and alongside crosstown CBTC Fs won't be sitting at Bergan St going Manhattan.
I don’t go to queens often but when I do I prefer 8th Avenue service since I head uptown taking the E to either 42 or 7th Avenue to ABCD service so I’m the minority lol
Will a swap actually happen when service on the line goes back to normal?
FINALLY MY IDEA CAME HERE
My only criticism is that the M cannot run 10-car trains like the F can, due to limitations in the BMT Eastern Division (8-car max). This reduced M capacity further. Not sure if your model adjusted for that.
We ran the numbers and the M can serve 63rd St.
The M train runs R160s, with a total capacity of 246 people. With 8 cars trains, that is 1968 people per train. With 8-9 tph, that nets 15744 to 17712 people per hour. The maximum the M can run is around 10 tph, which is 19680 people per hour.
According to MTA ridership data, 149,000 people pass through the 63rd St Tunnel. With peak ridership at around 10 percent of total ridership, that is maximum 14,900 people passing through the 63rd St Tunnel in one hour. At the very low end of 8 tph, it would be enough.
And that is assuming F train loads. M train loads don't get as high as F train loads after 36th St. Therefore, the 149,000 rider figure is going to drop.
Question about the F and M swap: Would the M train terminate at Queensbridge on the weekends? Or do we have the B go there instead to accommodate for more weekend demand on the Brighton Line?
The Brighton Line would have the N and Q.
For the B we’re better off sending it via Sea Beach to Coney Island while the D goes to Bay Ridge. This way all lines have a yard, and most yard assignments stay the same.
B train is weekdays only, and it is the line that gets pushed around a lot. It's CURRENT route is actually pretty solid for being a weekday-only line. To answer your question, yes, I wished to see the B train on weekends because the stops are sometimes way too frequent on the Q train and it moves very slowly. However, I don't think that the B train should be rerouted to Queens on weekends only since that will confuse many riders and the MTA doesn't like that either.
@@boguette_ the B on Sea Beach allows for it to be run 24/7
@@Reformperson I agree with that proposal would rather have the B/D go express down 4th Ave and have the B back on West End and the D back on Sea Beach. I'm assuming we would also go with the plan to send the B/D on the express on CPW, which would not only eliminate the conflict at 59th St previously discussed, but it would also allow both B/D trains go to into the Bronx without track conflicts, allowing both B and D trains to terminate at Norwood-205th, which allows for improved service in the Bronx. Anybody from the Bronx wanting to go into Lower Manhattan might have to transfer anyway to an A/C, but this can be done at 59th. CPW express service has to go to the Bronx though.
@@boguette_ The reason why I asked about if B service or M service should serve 63rd on the weekends is because I know the MTA is not keen on having 4 different lines running on the weekends, and I think there would be more of a benefit running B trains on 6th Ave at a certain number of TPH versus running M trains at a certain number of TPH. I heard also people would much rather on the weekend take the B in Brooklyn and then transferring to a Q train at Brighton Beach on the weekend than take the D or F in Brooklyn. I think it should at least be a seasonal thing, especially in the summer when people go to the beach.
Query: Why not restore the V and let it run via 63rd St from Chambers/WTC to Forest Hills? The M can be restored back along the Nassau Street Line into either the Brighton Line (running locally and terminating at Brighton Beach) or the West End Line (terminating at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway)? That way, people who use 63rd Street Line will still have 6th Avenue access.
Even why the Brown M was in service, it wasn't popular at all. Even in rush hours, it would constantly run empty 4 train cars. I understand wanting to remove the merge at Delancey-Essex, but the M in its current form is the most popular M train form and removing that will create overcrowding at Delancey-Essex Sts. The merge is justified given that Williamsburg Bridge is limited to 24 tph.
2play the “M” is never returning to running to South Brooklyn on the Brighton Line or even 4th Ave local line. This is not 1985 demographic has changed.
@@darkgalaxyi_o_l_o_i7831 I'd say that the overcrowding issue has happened for a while due to the wait time of the M at Essex/Delancey.
Hard to de interline QBL?? Simple capture LIRR port Washington convert to B division specs link to 63rd upper level and add extra station link to existing queens plaza station. Have queenslink be a branch split of port Washington. Merges mostly eliminated and G can return.6th and 8th ave simplified
Isn't this worse for people trying to get to 63rd st? It forces everyone who wants to 63rd to take a local with no option to take an express. Wouldn't it also mean that all of the people who live at a local stop now need to transfer to an express to get to 53rd when they didn't before? I understand it would improve things from an operations perspective but it seems to me like its giving a lot of people worse service options. I'd love to hear what your response is.
If you look at where people are going, 63rd St isn't the main destination, 53rd St is. 63rd St doesn't even register as the top 50 destination. Sure there is always going to be that one person who wants to get to 63rd St. But, it doesn't mean we kneecap our entire system to serve that.
Also, take the R at Queens Plaza. It runs three block away.
I like the F & M swap. That said, is there any feasible way to get the G line back on OBL, if only on nights and weekends?
The MTA just announced that the F will go back to 63rd as of April 1. This proves yet again that the MTA couldn't care less about what riders think.
Crazy and we are the paying customers
The F & M swap is good cause it provides 2 services to QBL from 53 street 1 express and 1 local so I'm for it too.
What is your thoughts on adding an express station at Woodhaven blvd on qbl
look at his previous video. One of his solutions was to add an express station at Woodhaven Blvd.
It can be done. There are bellmouths on the local track on both sides of Woodhaven Blvd station to allow this because the planners knew back in the 1930s the area was going to explode in ridership and new development. Considering how popular the station is with Queens Mall and Bus connections, it would be smart convert it in the future. It would alleviate crowding on Roosevelt Avenue.
If you put the M&N trains via 63rd then there will be NO QBL LOCAL service at Queens Plaza!!
Forgot to mention an infill station at 41st and Northern is necessary for this to work.
Hope this happens
As someone who lives in NYC, this video is very complicated.
The "K" train? I've never heard of that!
It was a train the last ran between 168th St and WTC as a local service. It is now a proposed route that deinterliners put out, which would be an E train that runs to 179th Street. The E does that already, but only during rush hours. So, to not confuse riders, a K bullet is put in. He said that the plan would be expensive and there would be large overcrowding, despite the increase in service and therefore, gave the plan a low rating.
Old 8Ave service that ran non rush hour from 168-WTC. The C was already part of it in the 90s until they made it an all Brooklyn local all times.
@@darkgalaxyi_o_l_o_i7831yeah we don’t need the K train honestly. A/C should be the local and B/ D should be the express on CPW. IND made the express useless in midtown and lower manhattan. Too much capacity on the trunks in manhattan for basically local+ service
@@williamerazo3921CPW won’t need the C with the B and D going Express on CPW. With that the C can be rerouted on QBL to 179th St and in Fulton will replace the A. With that said the E would end at Euclid running on the local tracks
Clarity for lines are follows
C: Fulton St Express
E: Fulton St Local
I see a lot of people on stineway st transfer at Queens Plaza I say it’s 50%
Okay now this is starting to be now Sunday first off n to forest will be the same way with 42nd Street junction like WTF, this isn't going to float and as orange M it needs to die fast why because you guess it station distance wise. Here let me give an example let's say you make the E and K from Jamaica to the Rockaways but you made an extensions for both lines, So you can like this idea. Okay let's say you respect it but guess what no matter how hard you tried to give it a chance you still don't like it anyways for stations because lefferts and Jamaica center are near each other and makes you questioned why couldn't they implement transfer between the 2. The same applies for the orange M. It goes from Metropolitan Avenue to Forest hills that's good but guess what we still hate it because it sucks just because it provides midtown service isn't going to make me like. E is good but I feel like 2nd Avenue subway should take over lefferts and Rockaways but it's not your fault, it's both the politics and the God damn orange M handcuffs. I don't care who still wants it people still going to hate it and want to see the split listen you can't have 2 lines be a loop and it doesn't make sense. If you want midtown riders to zip it here's what we need to do.
1. Bring back the abandoned Bergen street stop
2. Make the transfer of 49th street and rockefellers center offical.
3. Have m or j run on Brighton or 4th Avenue and see what'll happen.
4. If people support the m on coney island build using new Queenslink tech via myrtle Avenue directly without no mergers and sharp curves or attempts to sabotage.
5. Make the Last week for orange m to be dead then revived the brown m back into existence.
6. Do the Queenslink Extension and extend the brown m up north while the R goes east to LaGuardia Airport( m is served to direct traffic off the R and is an alternative route to the Airport)
7. Make f go Express between Jay street and church Avenue with the new Bergen street repaired and ready then make g be frequent.
8. When make your announcement of the V trains return that's when make it go on to Queenslink and go to Chruch Avenue all times except late nights(shuttle between 63rd drive and rego park).
9. Improve QBL meaning f trains would still be Express while g trains still go local.
10. De interling CPW, DeKalb and Mott junction with better improvements.
11. Reroute The e and r to Eculid Avenue and second Avenue subway replace current A.
12. Make second Avenue subway have 4 tracks.
13. Make the N and Q head to the bronx while the T and Y goes via 125 why to keep both sides of the coin.
14. Have a and 7 go to NJ why because it has massive transit deserted and NJ needs to test cognitive prices before suing us into a bad excuse. NJ want more service then you and I need to make a deal.
And finally
15. Extend D,6, and 7 further, make the d and 6 go to co-OP city, 7 to college point or bayside and have the IND Northern Blvd without no sabotaging with X and U going Express while the W handles the local. Transfers they'll have at 55th street for QBL, queens plaza for the 7, E, F, G, R, and V, trains and even 155 for the 7 to bayside even 163 for Lirr.
You see how not difficult it was either go with my and other ideas we make or keep suffering like this and not gain everything MTA. But I assure you mta don't want to any of it because they're selfish and greedy plus they're in debt. So needs to be improve pronto.
You ok?
@veoni5421 Yes but I've been completely inrashed that no matter how much you de interling the orange m would need to be split into 2 why because it makes no sense to go on a loop like I said if you want them midtown riders to Shut the fuck up here's this extended metropolitan avenue up north connected to Woodhaven Blvd and junction Blvd to head up north to LaGaurdia Airport.
Look, I've gotten you bored, but I can't address the main elephant in the room.
The F train should go back via the 63rd Street line making stops at 57th Street, Lexington Avenue-63rd Street, Roosevelt Island and 21th Street-Queensbridge. The M should resume its regular service between 47/50 Sts-Rockefeller Center and Forest Hills-71th Avenue via the 53rd Street line
You solve 1 problem but create another one with the E & K….
60' max cap is b/t 150 & 200 people, not 300
The F Train is bad on its original line temporarily the F Train used to run on the 53rd Street Line before originally assigned to the 63rd Street
F train should run at 63 street line as a Rush hours
I mentioned this in another comment, but the MTA doesn't want confusion between Rush Hours and non-Rush Hour times. Having the F run on Rush Hours via 63 will just mess up the M and other lines.
And the 63rd Street riders will complain about direct QBL express service 🙄
Running the 🟠 M Train through the 63rd Street tunnel sounds to me like a good idea so long as it has 24 hour service through the tunnel.
If a full deinterline on Qbl happens, we can bring back the (G) by sending the (M) to the Rockaways via Queenslink and the (G) to 179th st.
It wont wrk. Only issue would be for the lcl qbl riders. Unless the G gets back extended it would be a nightmare for lcls. I get that the M goes local at 36st but the problem is most ppl grab the local from Qns Plz & the wait times for the R alone are horrible. Most ppl from Bk & midtown use qns plz to go local. U basically making one service better while weaking the other. Trust me the R from Rv to qns plz is terrible it needs extra service to Qns plz. The E can handle the express by itself south of RV Ave
You can catch the M from anywhere else. It isn't limited to Queens Plaza only.
Also, if you take a look at where people are going, the 6th Ave-Broadway area is where the majority of people are going, not 8th Ave or 53rd St. Therefore, the one seat ride options won't change for the vast majority of QBL west riders. And even so, the middle zone and eastern zones of QBL out number QBL west by more than 2 to 1, meaning it is still a net benefit. Therefore, it is far from "It won't work."
Every routing has its own problems. Even the current system has routing problems, like how F train riders who want 53rd St don't get it. Therefore how we route trains is always majoritarian.
My thermodynamics class was less confusing. 20:29
My idea was to swap the F & M and to also cut the R service to allow for the W to run more frequently, which would free up space to allow for the return of G train services. I would replace the R in Brooklyn with an extension of the J and have the Z skip-stop service scrapped. I would also make the local lines run to 179 Street, to allow for the F to run express. I would also replace the C with the E to Euclid Avenue and would cut the C back to the World Trade Center. I would also make the F full time Express between Jay Street and Church Av. Local service between Bergen street and Church avenue can be picked up by the G and those going into Manhattan can change to the A/E at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I would swap the D and Q between Atlantic Av Barclays and Coney Island.
So overall, 2 services scrapped (R, Z), and major route changes to the other 8 services (C, D, E, F, G, J, M, Q, W).
I always want to watch your videos but it feels like it takes 10 minutes to get to the point
Mentioing the white plains road line was kinda a low blow
He was using an example of the deinterlining plan for the White Plains Road Line. How is that a “low blow”?
@@darkgalaxyi_o_l_o_i7831 because of the know problem of interlining on that line its a common example because of the delays at 180th and west farms
Completely unrelated to the subway but I saw the title before the thumbnail loaded and for a second I thought it was a video about being transgender 😅
Tech Transiiit 😃
Kinda hard to take your analysis seriously after the TBX light rail apology
Great video. Learned a lot. Thanks... What are your thoughts on extending the G local to 71st Continental along QBL and having the M terminate at 21st Queensbridge?
The R itself is a dumpster fire but it has the most connections in the system so, eh
Yes and it is sad. It is such a useful line, yet you see 10 minute headways on it.
I hope ridership increases to the point where QBL bypass line is proposed again and greenlit for construction.
It already exists it’s called the LIRR
They could of made the m train last stop is queen bridge 21 st
You can have the M run during the day until late nights and then on weekends it can serve QBL to help out the R.
Welp. It’s not happening.
wsg bro
The swap is not good too much congestion at night and delays not the greatest idea
I used to be mad when they made this either I came from 2nd avenue on the Q and then took the (F) to Bryant park or the Q to lex and 63 and then the (F) to roosevelt ave and I liked the (M) on lex and 53rd but I gotta realize this is good in Manhattan but not Queens so I understand now and it’s a bit annoying taking the Q to 34th herald square but it’s fine
Worst idea ever! The M only goes into midtown on weekdays and Queens Boulevard local riders will lose direct access to the 53rd Street stations, which cannot handle the rush hour frequencies of both the E and F trains.
The 53rd Street stations have been handling the frequencies of the E and F since late August 2023
Did you even watch the video? He literally adressed that.
M trains run to Forest Hills from 6 AM to 9 PM. After that time is around late night, so F trains will serve local stations and the 63rd Street Tunnel.
Also, yes, JTA is aware that people will lose direct access to the 53rd Street Tunnel, which is why he said that the western zone will be affected the most. There are pros and minor cons.
Also, why would 53rd Street not be able to handle rush hour frequencies? The E and F together at 30 trains per hour, but the issue was merging conflicts. With the F and M swap, you get rid of the merging conflicts, and trains are more reliable now.
Too freaking confusing
Watch it a couple of extra times. You'll eventually understand.
I bet dude on this video is not a even from my city
I definitely agree with the F and M swap. Swapping these lines will improve service on QBL.
On weekends the M can be extended to 21st Street Queensbridge.
During late nights the F can go on 63rd.
Let me know what you guys think about this idea!
Why not run the M line it’s full route that way you help out the R.
since the F now runs QBL local late nights, you can have the F serve 63 street late nights. I do think having the M on weekends is still necessary bc the R train is super infrequent on QBL local
Nice video. I fully agree that the F should remain on 53rd Street, with the M running on 63rd Street.
That de-interlining proposal with the R going to Astoria is a pile of nonsense and makes everything more complicated than it needs to be.
The R does not need to be on QBL it should be re routed to Astoria which will discontinue the W since it’s a Broadway line it’s a waste I’d rather see the G replace the R on QBL
@@ryanmercy666 The R needs access to Jamaica Yard.
@@CLBT7437 not if it gets re routed to Astoria then it will be based out of Coney Island
@@ryanmercy666 The R isn't going to be based out of Coney Island Yard. The de-interlining plan where the R runs on West End and the D goes to Bay Ridge-95th Street is a pile of rubbish. Why? Allow me to explain.
West End riders like D service since it runs 4th Avenue Express and via the Manhattan Bridge. Trading that for 4th Avenue local and the Montague Tunnel won't sit well with many of them.
The R is the only QBL route that connects with Lexington Avenue Express service. Replacing it with the G is foolish. The only way that the G should return to QBL is if Queenslink is built. However, the probability of that happening is slim since it lacks the required political support.
@@CLBT7437 it might since it doesn’t need CBTC since it’s a Broadway line
Ngl petitions on that website don’t do shit no offense
this is some high level trainsgender stuff