The LIVE FAILURE of World’s Best Resurrection Scholar (Gary Habermas response)
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Scholar Gary Habermas' 1000+ page resurrection magnum opus is out, but can he withstand the push back of Paulogia's "Minimal Witnesses" natural hypothesis that fully explains his minimal facts approach? Has Gary wasted 50 years and 32,000 hours?
"No Resurrection Required" by Paulogia
• "No Resurrection Requi...
On the Resurrection, Volume 1: Evidences by Gary Habermas
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50 Years Studying the Resurrection Magnum Opus by Gary Habermas
• 50 Years Studying the ...
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If you're willing to read Gary's book and cover it for us, the least I can do is pay for the damn thing.
Howie! That's so generous. Thank you.
Wow. Awesome
So now if a thousand people bought you a book, that would be generous to.
Dang! You, my good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
@@ronaldlindeman6136If they all donated $75. That would be pretty generous yeah
Gary Habermas - the man whose resurrection book kept getting longer while his list of minimal facts for it kept getting shorter.
@@JD-wu5pfYep, my post was meant to be humorous pointing out the absurdity of him for years (decades?) claiming he's writing this voluminous tome that'll supposedly finally end all debate on the resurrection while simultaneously conceding facts. I think his minimal fact argument has been reduced from like 15 to now 5 1/2 by his own admission.
@@JD-wu5pfNo worries, I didn't take it to be grumpy or condescending. And besides, no one can be expected to be writing clearly before their 1st cup of coffee! 😊
@@dougt7580that’s some truth! I’ve embarrassed myself a few times writing something “spicy” before coffee
@@JD-wu5pf I think that's totally unfair to say. Sometimes it takes a long time to prove facts, like Einstein's theory of relativity, which wasn't 6 pages long I can assure you of that, and also literally any complex historical debate. I'm not putting myself on either side of this debate, I just think you're acting as if historical studies prove everything in 6 pages, but the immense size of any history book directly disproves your point.
@@JD-wu5pf Yeah, the amount of evidence in favour of the resurrection is like the amount of "soft tissue" that supposedly shows that dinosaurs lived recently: If what the believers believe actually were the case, there would be *tons* more evidence.
When people like Gary mire the conversation down in endless semantic detail, I like to take a step back and remember that these tenuous “minimal facts” and the thin lines of reasoning that extend from them are all supposed to be a justification for believing in wild supernatural phenomena. Looking at it that way, you can see how juvenile this all is. Nobody starting from square one would reason to belief in resurrections and gods and miracles because of stuff like this. NOBODY. Grown men just sit there piddling over this stuff to justify what they already came to believe in for non-intellectual reasons.
There’s a minimal fact for you, Gary.
Hey, it's Zod! Love your channel.
To your point: The question I always ask theists is whether they remember consciously transitioning from non belief to theism and, if so, what persuaded them. Guess how many good answers I've gotten! Suffice to say, my findings line up with a recent quip from Alex O'Connor, who said, "When you hear somebody recounting a conversion story, how often does it
really begin with 'premise one?'"
I was thinking, 'This commenter not only lays it out both simply and eloquently.'. Then, I saw it was Zod and thought, 'Of course.'. Kryptonese education at its finest.
Here is a minimal fact.
-In some of the earliest post resurrection stories about Jesus some of his closest followers don’t recognize Jesus.
One fun exercise would be trying to check what other supernatural claims are true based on these standards.
This is how I felt listening to Dr. Ryan Mullins's podcast when he had some guy on there talking about hypertime and how God could defeat evil even though it exists now by retroactively altering time such that no evil ever occurs (I'm serious, though to be fair this was Mullins's guest's position, not his own), and the guest basically admitted that as long as this idea is NOT IMPOSSIBLE (i.e. has no obvious logical contradictions), it's not irrational to be a theist. And I'm thinking, like... really? We need magical hypertime-travel wiping evil out of retroactive existence after it already hyper-happened to make Abrahamic religion make sense to you (the guess was Jewish, technically), and you're perfectly OK with this because... it's NOT IMPOSSIBLE? That's all we need, that it isn't demonstrably logically wrong? No sane person is going to nod along and say "Aha, that's true, because I cannot show that this idea is self-contradictory, it is a perfectly reasonable thing to believe might explain evil while permitting Yahweh to exist."
"World's best resurrection scholar" is akin to being the foremost authority on Prometheus's liver condition.
Somebody has to be!
ROFLOL
That's brilliant, wish I'd thought of it.
it ain't good, usually.
Excellent reference. Well done
(worked on his book for 35 hours a week for 14 years)
Truly, impressive. Few people can claim to have devoted so much time and effort to something so completely useless.
reminds of that onion skit about the man who devoted his life to studying anteaters.
At least anteaters are real
If he'd taken a few more seconds to run it through a calculator, he'd realize he'd only spent 25,480 hours on it, just over 20% less than his claim.
That's roughly three or four times longer than it would take a moderately determined person to get a PhD. Call me cynical but I have my doubts.
Hey now, Duke Nukem Forever happened
He's like a professional Bigfoot hunter. At least they get to go camping.
I've read the first 6 chapters which covers the intro through Gary's argument for the historical Jesus. I probably won't read the rest for a while. Other than Gary's poor arguments for the historicity of Jesus, this little bit stuck out to me:
```When studying ancient Greco-Roman history, it becomes obvious that virtually all of these ancient authors recorded various miracles and other supernatural occurrences, such as healings, prophecies, omens, portents, and the like.``` (p. 115)
Gary here wants to say that people should trust the gospels as historical because all historians of the time included supernatural occurrences. He includes healings and then three different words for prophecies. The issue is that prophecies have a fairly easy natural explanation. You just have a prophet make a bunch of prophecies then you just record the hits and forget the misses. It's not all that complicated.
Later in the book Gary want's to say that Christians don't have to take these non-Christian supernatural claims seriously because they are not credible and he says this:
```Moreover, the similarity to the earlier New Testament miracle claims of Jesus, as well as the plain fact that healing events can actually occur without any supernatural intervention at all, leave these accounts without any real differentiation from the individual arguments for the New Testament data.``` (p. 124)
Here Gary admits that reports of healings are actually not necessarily supernatural. It's very odd to me how weak his argument was in this section.
Yikes. Great point.
Special pleading
_"You just have a prophet make a bunch of prophecies then you just record the hits and forget the misses. It's not all that complicated."_
Or just have them make their prophecies after-the-fact.
@@fred_derf
Arseophecies - when flatulence is mistaken for words.
The Gospels are historical evidences. Pretending they are not is against actual studies and science for witness testimonies.
Your heart is the reason why you reject them, not science.
We can't get a straight story on the assassination of JFK which happened 60 years ago. How can we possibly think we can know all about an extraordinary claim about something that happened 2000 years ago?
Exactly!!!!!!!!!
Because ....🎶the bible tells us so🎶..............🫠
We apply the concept/theory of UNIFORMITARIANISM.
This was coined by geologists, but has utility in almost any epistimelogical discipline. It basically means that natural processes working today, worked in the same way in the past.
So, all the 'miracles' and things in the bible that require us to suspend rational belief and accept some supernatural explanation run counter to the uniformitarian theory.
Actually, we can get a straight story on the assassination of JFK. He was murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald. The trouble is that people don’t want to believe the boring truth.
The same applies to the resurrection. It didn’t really happen and the stories about it were made up. But that’s boring.
Been screaming this for years!!!
Paul :"I won't offer a critique of the book until I've read the entire thing through at least once.
Gary : "I should have made it longer....."
I'm surprised he published it. There is no possible motivation other than it being true. 😊
👏👏👏👏
🤣🤣🤣
@@goldenalt3166 criterion from embarrassment
Well volume 2 still to be released later this year.
32000 hours of confirmation bias. What a waste.
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
So another tv pastor writes a book. How original.🙄
@@hackman669lol U better buy it if U want to make heaven
@hackman669 Thank you immensely for your sarcastic bite! 🥳🤔😕💛If you desire to consume my content, then proceed to The Infographics Show's video on Jesus' resurrection. My comment is categorized under the "newest" portion of that video's comment section.
@@BenjaminEaster-b8b hi 🙂 why Jesus not showing to everyone when he resurrected
I've been studying flat earth for 30 years for 70h every day.
That's why I'm an expert on flat earth and what I say goes.
Wait - what do you mean it doesn't work like that
since the earth is flat, the days are 87 hours long and it works like that. wait...
You could wake up one hour early and make it 71h every day
Damn that's a lot of youtube
The Earth IS flat. And the Sun is a giant Destructo Disk.
That's exactly how it works....lol
There are plenty of people alive right now who make all kinds of eye-witness claims that I don't believe. Why am I expected to believe supposed eye-witness accounts from people who lived (supposedly) 2000 years ago?
And I'm not obligated to provide an alternate explanation. If a claim is outrageous, I simply don't believe it. It's not up me to prove it wrong.
Exactly!!!
The fact the book uses the word "evidences" in the title is already a huge red flag!
Evidences is a word
Honestly, I think it's a fine word, it's a shorter way to say "pieces of evidence". But yes, it does sound wrong and dumb when you hear it.
TalkOrigins talks about the "evidences" for macroevolution.
@@LuciferAlmighty 'Evidence' is an uncountable noun. Use of the plural is both awkward and inappropriate in ordinary English.
@dougfraser77 evidences is a word in English. Nothing wrong with it, it's a valid word.
I hope your book doesn't detract from the exemplary job you do on these videos. I was indoctrinated into paranoid Christianity and your videos help me find the actual evidence of religion (or lack thereof) and expose the lies.
Thankfully I was always a rebel so I naturally questioned what I was told by authority and didn't stay a believer for long. The damage religion has done on my family has been large and I've seen firsthand what happens to people who don't seek actual treatment and instead 'go to god'.
Keep up the incredible work you do!
Those are kind words. Thank you. Well done for escaping the maze.
Matrix? :) @@Paulogia
@@joe5959 So you're claiming to have evidence? Well, why hide it? Present it if you have it.
Otherwise, the null position.
@@joe5959 Contempt for zealots making a living off of pretending some ancient anthology is "the word of god (tm)" which does NOTHING to make the world a better place and more than talking about Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings.
What WOULD make the world a better place is simply following the philosophy of that namesake: by loving and forgiving. Not one person's mental or especially physical heath has been improved by the 70 hours of work done by this blathering "Doctor's" work.
@@joe5959 If you don't want to hear evidence against your case, I don't have to listen to yours either (especially since your argument is "do your own research" right before stating you don't want to hear anything else but what you already know). One-sided arguments are not proper discussions.
To help defray the cost of Gary's book(s). Thanks for doing the heavy lifting, Paul, and I look forward to your first book report.
BTW - I noticed that you've begun releasing podcast episodes again and I couldn't be happier. Happy Year of the Dragon!
Thank you so much for the support! And yeah, sorry for that podcast hiatus.
Well, if you need a Paulogia convert named James to proclaim your truths… At your Service 😊
Sure, I'll call you brother!
You don't happen to have a brother named Jesus, do you?
@@IanM-id8or yes, folks will say I witness... man I didn't see nutt'n unless cash, wire, cheq or money order I'll see whatev you want
@@IanM-id8or Only a gardener, unfortunately.
32 hours per page might be the record for the slowest writing ever seen. I should be expecting PhD scientific paper level writing on every page, but I'm actually expecting fancy word salad and half-truths. Have I just become too cynical?
He is a scholar, but he is also paid to make people believe. He will of course try to convince people of things that are not actually true.
George R. R. Martin: Hold my beer.
No, you are right.
No. Gary is more or less that way. Can sometimes be too esoteric.
@@raptorcrasherinc.9823 When is the Bible ever wrong about you?
It doesn't bode well when the word "evidences" appears on the cover of a book that supposedly deals with evidence.
Nothing wrong with the word evidences.
@@LuciferAlmightyAs a word, no. But "On the resurrection: Evidences" doesn't make grammatical sense.
@@TheUltrahypnotoad off topic much
@@LuciferAlmighty Nothing wrong with words like "evolutionists" or "auditing" or "clear" either, but if I see them on a cover of a book written by-insiders-for-insiders, I doubt the veracity of every claim made in that book.
@@LuciferAlmighty It's a grammatical mistake, the word is being used incorrectly.
It is not 'off topic', as that particular error is mostly used by liars.
But even setting that aside, a grammatical/spelling error in the title of a book, does not bode well for the quality of the contents.
"...I've caught hundreds of snakes and bit hundreds of times..." - - This doesn't speak very highly of his ability to learn from his experiences.
He has stepped on "32,000" nails? I hope he decided to invest in a pair of boots with steel soles.
And both statements show Gary's penchant for hyperbole.
Sounds like more of a lie than hyperbole.
@@robertwarner-ev7wphe probably took a snake hunting tour once in the Everglades
Oh!.... Sorry... I thought he said "snails"! 🤣
Your arrogance will be the reason why those snake bites killed you, but not him. Don’t test God’s patience, because he will allow the venom to destroy you.
@@justice8718 Wow, you mean timberry was killed by a snakebite? I don't understand why you're replying to him.
Yeah, ive procrastinated on projects when I don't like how the results are coming out. I understand, Gary, i really do.
A thousand pages written on minimal facts ? Gary's work is like the product of those tailors in the story about the Emperor who spent all his money on fabric thot only those of the purest heart could see. And here we have "young Paul" pointing out that this "Doctor" has no clothes/arguments !!
Bravo Paulogia. Bravo !!
Who the heck was paying him for 14 years? That's a big advance.
Evangelical Christian donations, probably. They're quicker to give money, and less likely to do due diligence than most publishing companies. Though paying Trump's legal fees is probably a big draw on this resource right now...
I am guessing his intention was to fill 1000 pages with crappe and then we are just supposed to “take his word for it” since you’re “ unwilling to read the whole thing”
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
I think he worked for those years at a christian University as "researcher". Thus also the research assistent staff (young graduates earning their first positions and such).
Wikipedia opines: "He is distinguished research professor and chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University."
Plenty of money for zero results there.
@@astrinymris9953 I had trouble getting through "to do due diligence". Quite a tongue twister. 😀
As he was writing this greatly anticipated (at least by fellow apologists) multi-volume tome, I wonder how much time Gary Habermas spent looking at himself in the mirror and saying, "Yeah, that's right bitches, I'm a real bible scholar".
We should be clear and honest and say that the sources avaialble to him have been avaialble to everyone for a very long time and yet still the resurrection remains in doubt. I wonder why 😁
"The big four"
John, Paul, George and Ringo
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Leatherface, Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, Chucky.
More like Winter, Summer, Fall and Spring!
@srthomas65 .....huh?
Paul(ogia) was referring to 4 people, 2 of which were John and Paul. I just tweaked it a bit.
@mattCrawley I'm referring to astrotheology
How, how, how... do you spill 32,000 hours of work and dedication into a 1000 page magnum opus and never find out that 'evidence' is a mass noun and 'evidences' is a verb?
Im sorry - whats D O C T O R Gary's ph.d in, again?
-And why didnt he use his honorific in his book _which he needs publicity for??_
Dafuq is this guy doing?
I'll contribute as well!! You're doing the Flying Spaghetti Monster's work!!🤗
Thank you so much, dude!
R'amen!
Gary actually got killed by snakes a few times but he resurrected
What kind of snake handler gets bit THAT OFTEN!? Is that a kink I haven't heard about?
Well one of the minimal facts is that he used to be alive, and that he has recently been seen alive again. I don't know where he is now, but would anyone really hallucinate? There were even group appearances. His resurrection is clearly the only reasonable explanation!
Hey, this apologetics stuff is pretty easy. If only I didn't have this inconvenient atheistic moral compass...
@@noneofyourbusiness7055 See, Atheism is a worldview, with moral pronouncements. Checkmate! /s
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
Who knew the "first fruits" of the resurrection would be nuts?
I just don't believe Someone can work 70 hours a week for 14 years.
I did it for 6 months and was so tired I was beginning to think I had brain cancer. Took 2 days good rest to recover and realize I was tired.
Granted it was a more physical job but I was also younger and healthier than Gary
Depends on how he defines work. Remember, he might also be counting interviews, time spent at church to 'review' the material, lunches, travel to the library, getting distracted on an interesting historical story from roughly the same time period... I can see him certainly technically claiming that W.
@@chameon378For tax purposes, it was all about the book. 😊
My father in law is a physician workaholic. His work is a core part of who he is. He worked 60+ hours per week for decades. He “retired” about 7 years ago and now only works “half time” at 40 hours per week at 73 years old.
Hard agree. What he includes in 'work' is probably a bunch of nothing, the way many white-collars do.
Aside from the fact that people tend to exaggerate these things, if he considers "research" (i.e., reading stuff) to be "work" in this regard, then it's totally no big deal.
I am admitedly sad that you did not include Gary's claim that Paul was able to verify that he saw the Risen Jesus with Peter and James on the basis of what he looked like, but you made me happy with his snake-hunting and nail-stepping stories.
Given the gospels describe resurrected Jesus as changed or unrecognized, it's pretty dumb to even claim that Paul's Jesus looked like Peter's Jesus.
He looked like DB Cooper but with longer hair and a beard
Paul only asserted that Jesus was a bright light.
None of the Gospel authors witnessed jesus.
@twitherspoon8954 Paul doesn't say what he witnessed. Acts gives two different accounts.
@@goldenalt3166
_"Paul doesn't say what he witnessed."_
Acts 22:6: “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me."
Of course Jesus is a fictional character.
Several times on Paulogia’s videos I have listed multiple examples of non-Christians dying for their deeply held beliefs; therefore using the same logic to prove that those beliefs must be true, else why would they die for them. And since their numbers were so much greater, perhaps they are even more true.
The outraged responses are as consistent as they are hypocritical. Attacking the individuals involved (“How can we be certain they were dying for that belief at the second of death”). “Their beliefs are automatically false since they don’t agree with my church”. And “only those who die for my church are real martyrs.”
The myopic denialism of others beliefs is sad, but all too common.
“We believe it because a single source tells us.” Paulogia brings this up so often. Keep up the good work.
Got to agree.
35 hours a week for 14 years..... Just to have it masterfully ripped to shreds in less than 22 minutes by Paulogia.
From this day forward, any wasted time in my life will forever be known as having Habermased my time. Sitting around Habermasing instead of working. Roll a blunt and Habermas. All that time I Habermased dealing with my crazy ol baby momma who still ain't changed, still more productive than the time he took writing his book.
😂😂😂 👍
Did he miss this?
1 Corinthians 15:3-8 KJV
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: [5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: [6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. [7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. [8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1000 pages seems like a written gish galloping.
You should make your minimal witness thesis a PhD dissertation!
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
It's sad to see someone so proud of having completely wasted their life.
Paul - never underestimate the contribution you have made (and continue to make) to rational discourse and against superstitious thinking. Over time, many thousands of people will see your content and it will contribute to their decision to leave the faith they inherited and embrace reality.
Something about James (brother of Jesus) I don't get and please correct me if I'm wrong. He was a skeptic or non believer and then decided is brother was in fact the son of god and converted? But growing up didn't Mary and Jman explain to him about his Mums miraculous conception and his brother being a deity? Growing up together James was totally oblivious to the fact that his brother, was not only pretty cool, had nice, wise things to say, but was a fucking god? THE god? Not much communication going on in that household.
_"Not much communication going on in that household."_
Jesus had four brothers and multiple sisters.
You'd think that he would have told them that he is literally god and created the universe by himself.
@davcan18 I think you have an exceptionally strong argument. Along these lines:
• Mary became pregnant while unmarried. Her villagers either believed that this was a virgin birth, or they didn't. If they generally did, then how to explain Jesus's own brother's skepticism? And how to explain (Mark 6:4-13) that Jesus _could not_ perform miracles there? That Mark passage says that her fellow villagers were skeptical of Jesus's divinity, so they must _not_ have believed that Mary's pregnancy was miraculous. But then they must have thought that she was pregnant by a man not yet her husband. Was this not a deeply shameful taboo? How did Mary & Joseph avoid expulsion or even stoning?
• How is it possible that Mary and Joseph, _the two best parents who ever lived,_ forgot their child, the Creator of the Universe, behind in Jerusalem _for an entire day!?_ And he apparently took no notice of their departure either! (Luke 2:41-52)
• We are taught that Mary & Joseph were poor. So what did they do with all that gold, frankincense and myrrh? (Matthew 2:11)
I love that Habermas is already on the defensive, he knows every single point he tries to make in the new monster of a book has been shredded already.
It was funny watching him "squirm" just trying to explain his "facts" to another apologist. Imagine what he would sound like trying to defend his claims (which have already been refuted numerous times) to a real historian.
@@ObjectiveEthics He just gets angry and offended that people question him. He's got this idea that his pile of minimal facts arguments is so perfected, purely because of his personal investment in them, that to question them is an insult. If he tolerates it at all it will be from a vastly more credentialed expert than himself, and even then I doubt he would aquiesce on any front.
Of cource, when he started this it was the 12 minimal facts. This was reduced over time until we have what we have now. And the premise is that these are facts that skeptics and believers can agree on, which is not true.
The group resurrection appearances are listed here by Paul:
1 Corinthians 15:3-8 KJV
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: [5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: [6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. [7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. [8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Exactly, there goes his “minimal witnesses” theory.
I still think Mary Magdalene gets overlooked in these debates (even Gary omits her from his list, possibly because she lacks the essential qualification for an apostle, viz., a penis). The gospel writers clearly felt a need to account for her in some way (while marginalising her to a greater or lesser degree). While I don’t disagree that Peter is the *minimal* initial witness, my personal view is that Mary also experienced what she took to be a resurrected Jesus, which may have helped “corroborate” Peter’s experience (though with divisions later opening up between Mary and the other apostles, possibly because Mary had cooties)
I am in the club of those who have lost a child. I see my son Seth all the time. I see him on the street, in my dreams, on occasion, I can smell his hair and its' been 5 years. My fellow lost child club members all report something similar.
Virtual hugs through the internet.
He's been bitten hundreds of times. HUNDREDS??? Why am I having trouble believing that. However, if it is true, he must easily be the world's worst snake hunter. My advice to Gary is if you ever visit Australia, do NOT go snake hunting.
Yeah, and stepped on thousands of nails. Where does he look for snakes at? A nail factory?
It makes me smile every time i hear, " for the bible tells me so" jingle!!
Dear Paul, you could write an article and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal (maybe co-authored with the help of a friend scholar). A short peer-reviewed article in a respectable journal carries more weight than a 5-kg non-peer-reviewed book 😁
So, we waited 14 years for that?
I suspect that Peter, Paul and Mary provided us with vastly better evidence for the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon
Marijuana is absolutely real! What are you talking about?
"WE" are a patient people, we are waiting for the last two books of Song of Ice and Fire about that long too.
Habernas is a hobbyist apologist, NOT a biblical scholar.
Of the hobby lobby ilk even
That's apparently how the biblical scholarship community sees Gary, if they think about him at all.
Family Guy Habermas is an endless source of comedy. Thank you, Paul, for wading through this aeroplane chock of a book so that we don't have to - not that I ever would have, but I am curious as to just how minimal Gary's facts are.
The self-proclaimed "magnum opus" is actually here
well, volume one of four
I surprised we even got this. I cant say I'll read it. I'll leave it to you paul....I trust ya.
@@Paulogia Really? Ok I heard it now. A bit verbose that boy
A magnum octopus is a many tentacled splendour.
Hes caught hundreds of snakes, been bitten hundreds of times and stepped on 32,000 nails... this is what professional liars say...
I know you are smarter than me, but I do not understand the relationship between catching snakes and standing on nails.....*shrugs*
@@perfectblindguy bro I'm in the same boat, it's a very weird opening statement... who counts the nails you step on and how stupid are you to do this 32,000 times... and then brag about it...? Lol so many questions...
If he has been doing this every day since he was 10 years old, that means he steps on more than 10 nails per week. Sounds about right.
@@mattf5935 you actually believe hes stepped on 32,000 nails...? Even if it's true, what does that say about him...? Does he work at a nail factory with snakes and just fucks around to find cause hes into that...? Who would even brag about this...? Is so outlandish of a statement that you simply cant believe him...
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
I'm so distracted by Habermas' voice. He sounds like Peter from Family guy.
Look! My cereal spelled out “Oooooooooo”
Dad… those are cheerios.
Oh geez. Now I can’t stop thinking about that.
@@mjjoe76 sorry dude 😂
@@adamredwine774I think Hitchens used that in one of his debates
@@ATOK_ he did
Here is my 1 minimal fact argument to show that the resurrection did not happen ... Jesus ain't nowhere to be found.
He is in the imagination of the folks who gather in tax free clubhouses each Sunday, being told by the P.T. Barnums out there, that "he is your buddy - alleluia !"
"Evidences". OMG - even the title of the book screams ignorance
That word is such a red flag these days. It's only used in the plural by theists deceiving
Evidences is an actual word.
@@LuciferAlmighty so is fishes. My point remains
@alexmcd378 what point?
@@LuciferAlmighty that the plural form is almost never used by anyone except theists trying to deceive, and is therefore a red flag
*Taking it on faith : **_The gospel of "hearsay"_** ;*
It seems obvious as to why Christianity puts such a high priority on _believing things on faith._
With having nothing more than _hearsay stories about Jesus,_ they have no choice but to _take it on faith._
*Faith in the words & writings of men that **_"claim" to speak for Jesus_** .*
Pine creek recently replayed his chat he had with habermas. For someone who is claimed to be one of the most experienced apologists he got smoked
Edit: it doesn't take away from my commentary below, but is your minimal witness theory basically that it would help if it wasn't just a guy or two claiming the resurrection? Like if a whole town saw him revive and have multiple different diaries, historical books, etc that that would cement this claim better?
5:37 I have family members who believed they saw a family member recently after they had passed away. I even had moments of having to take second glances at people who I thought resembled them.
How is fact 2 a special circumstance for Jesus? Especially considering they worshipped the guy besides just loving him. When a normal phenomena occurs I believe that's less likely to be a miracle.
Maybe fact 2 is summarized and I'm missing conversations they had with Jesus in which case I also have a suspicion on that claim. I've had many dreams with conversations with loved ones who passed away. I also have had incredibly vivid unreal dreams. I believe it's more likely a combination of a consequence of the psychedelic power of the mind and these people aren't here to testify on their account. We get these stories passed down by banana phone, after all.
Of course I get to the end and you clarify hallucination possibility which reminded me of your videos I've watched on this which has been a bit ago. I usually comment as watching because I don't want to forget, but then getting answered by finishing the video is always the risk! Lol
@Loki - We have Greco-Roman literature in which a lot of elements from Homer, Euripides, and Ovid are incorporated. Not to forget that parts from Josephus are copied as well. So the idea that this is anything but Greco-Roman literature is entertaining, but without evidence. So any character in these stories are like Harry Potter and Hermione. By the way, Hermione can't tell us that Harry is a mage as she is a fictional character and this is what we find in the unnamed fan fiction we call gospels.
@@TorianTammas thank you for the information! I've not taken that many history courses nor done much self study.
*Exceptionally Verbose ;*
Taking over 1000 pages, to sum up a claim, that could easily be laid out in a short pamphlet.
_A highly polished turd._
I would love to see you and Gary have a direct chat! That would give great "closure" on both sides, I feel. It's been a joy watching this all unfold throughout the years.
Thanks & Cheers!
💖
You can watch the conversation between Habermas and PineCreek Doug.
That's probably how a discussion with Paul would look like... Paul asks short little questions and then Habermas rambles along for 10 minutes until he forgets what the question was.
@@ramigilneas9274 Habermas, WLC and Jordan Peterson are one of thos trinities which overlap with other fundamentalist/literalist circles. I always thought of WLC as a deactivated JP. All three tend to grease themselves up then proceed to ramble when faced with the simplest questions.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -M. Twain
@@ramigilneas9274 expecting Habermas to be an honest interlocutor is just silly...
I believe I've previously supplemented a post with this theme, but I'll reiterate my opinion:
You know Paulogia is a worthy of being a scholar by the fact that he's pilgrimaged from having been an ordinary, run-of-the-mill RUclipsr (in terms of notablity) to combating the likes of fundamental Christian scholar Gary Habermass in less than a decade. This fact is profoundly euphoric for a mind teeming with skepticism, such as myself.
I have to say I think you're well on your way to developing it. You've been researching the topic for years for your videos. Primarily, learning how to write a book will be the hardest part for you if I had to guess.
But if I had to request one thing it would be that I think you should be sure to lay out the goal of the book as not some necessary naturalistic explanation but one of the most reasonable inferences from the strong and available evidence. Good luck.
Good advice.
Por que no las dos? It's not necessary in refutation to offer potential answers, but it's a nice touch.
@@Loki-
I agree. I was noting that since Paulogia is offering a potential answer it would be good to clarify it as one possibility since many may wish to pretend like he is presenting it as the only or a necessary answer of how things must've gone.
It is just an idea of how I thought he could head off refutations that would miss the point. That a naturalistic explanation of the supposed facts can be made. Which many theist wish to say one cannot be made and that as such a supernatural explanation is warranted.
In terms of getting help, maybe lay out the process and what you could use help with?
For example, if you needed transcription of your video replies into coherent paragraphs on the subject.
Then just put up what you need so those of us with a little extra time and the right skillset could help.
@mikehill1114
You replied to me, not to Paulogia.
I think these “ Evangelical apologists “ are crooks .😮
This is just a show for them and making money 💰.
I don’t care how many yrs he said he has spent on this subject , he is so full of himself .
he claims he has some proof and evidence but I don’t see any convincing evidence , just repeating what others has said over time many many times over .😮
I think equating apologists to crooks is a bit unfair.
Crooks have way more integrity ;-)
Gary is like those tailors who made money weaving fabric that only the purest of heart could see in that fairytale. And now that this "Dr." has spent all this time and got all this money, we can see that "young Paul" is pointing out, "The Emperor" is naked ! He has NOTHING in that book of "evidences".
Many more people claim to have seen Elvis alive after his death, than claim to have seen the resurrected Jesus.
I say we have maximal facts for Elvis' resurrection
You can always self-publish the book. What matters is how well a theory is defended. Of course, this defence must follow academic principles to be taken seriously, for instance:
- Weigh your hypotheses against contrary hypotheses.
- Construct logical, sound arguments.
- Use the evidence we have, as we have it.
- Mention sources (primary, secondary) and the latest bibliography.
- And, most importantly, use scientific methodology (history, textual criticism) and a multidisciplinary approach.
Some core problems I think Minimal Witnesses hypothesis should deal with:
- Given the fact that the gospels are literary constructs, not historical accounts, how can we know they used oral traditions or previous written materials from the time of Jesus? And, if they used them, how can we tell them apart from the evangelists’ (whoever they were) own inventive?
- How can we know who Jesus’ disciples were if Paul (our first source) doesn’t mention any, only apostles who, according to Paul, only knew about Jesus from hallucinations and scripture?
- In essence, what evidence do we have of any witnesses to Jesus’ life and/or death?
Literature and history are not false dichotomies. Extensive studies of the gospels and letters has shown traditions - this is consensus.
How do we even know that Paul and Peter weren't the PT Barnums of their time? What did either actually do to earn our belief?😊
Paul and Peter earned the belief by living people who saw them perform curses and miracles. You are literally using the fact they are dead to claim “oh they had no evidence for it”.
George Washington is a man of God who many wild stories that were true and witnessed by others, who spoke of prophecy, but even though he was the man to found a successful nation that overcame the world, you would refuse to believe no matter how recent he is to only be under 300 years apart from us.
When you die, no one would even know you even exist. And it’s a fitting end you put yourself into.
Every preacher out their thinks they are the Peter Jackman version of the con artist P.T. Barnum. And it was Barnum who is claimed to have said "There is a sucker born every minute.", which is why we see these megachurch and televangelists working to grab every dime from those folks....'cause if they don't ....someone else will.
2:36 - I think your hypothesis would be much more convincing if you emphasized how beliefs change when apocalyptic prophecies fail, such as those of a Jewish prophet named Jesus. The excuses people offer (it'll happen later, it happened spiritually, etc.) are exactly what we observe in Christianity, as distinct from Judaism.
For someone who has spent 70 hours a week over 14 years, at least half of those on this one book, as well as teaching at 15 graduate schools on top of his main university of employment and other books and articles he’s published in that time it makes you wonder how much time Gary spends with his students.
Given how many students are enrolled at his university compared to staff. Only 700 odd full time staff and 3000 part time for 96,000 students.
The university I attended had over 3000 staff for around 10,000 undergrads and 6000 post grads.
I'm not sure having Gary Habermas turn up to give a lecture would really improve the academic experience of the students or the quality of their education.
Can anyone explain to me why the "minimal facts" are called "facts", when in fact these "facts" themselves have very little actual evidence outside the bible/claim itself? I mean, is there any actual non-biblical source that verifies that Jesus was crucified?
They're called facts because, supposedly, a lot of experts in the field agree they're true. (This is why Habermas calls them facts, mind you. I don't agree with Gary on a number of things.)
If you look at them all, though, they're "the disciples believed some stuff passionately after they had some experiences" which.. isn't impressive at all.
Last year, I had some really intense experiences of a hospital flying into space and becoming a starship for Nazis. Full colour and sound, tactile, scents and tastes. Do I think they were anything other than my brain screwing up due to being in ICU after heart surgery? No.
Gary provides no more reason for me to trust the disciples' supposed experiences are correctly interpreted than for me to trust my own experiences. Less, really, since I KNOW I had those experiences but can't say the same about the disciples.
There is not. They'll claim Josephus among others, but he and the others were only recording Christian beliefs, not independent attestations.
@@caffetiel Exactly! Some historian saying "These Christians believe their leader was resurrected" is NOT supporting Christian claims! It's saying Christians were Christians. Big deal!
You get me so excited about Habermas... it's some kind of talent, for sure.
I can cover shipping. Lol. Thanks Paul. Excellent work as usual.
Deal! very generous
They are so desperate to prove it's more than faith and feelings. Spoiler: It's not.
A lot of this seems like one of the main Christian arguments, if they can't be proven 100% wrong about things they haven't really proven in the first place, they have to be pretty much 100% correct.
I don't think we will be able to finance your minimal facts magnum opus with superchats but let us know what sort of numbers we will have to post to get you close
Wow, Gary spends a LOT of time confirming his own bias.
So this guy spent years studying something for which there is no empirical evidence. Why did it take him so long? Slow learner?
Can't believe you finally have book in hand!! Wow long time coming
What a surprise that Habermas turns out to be a snakehandler. We already knew he sells their oil.
You’d think, as a person who has studied the resurrection for fourteen years, he’d know that the bit about snakes at the end of Mark was tacked on well after the majority of the book was written.
@@jeremypnet Apostle Paul got bitten by one, didn’t care, and the thrown it into the fire, surprising an entire fleet of poisoned man.
I actually like the minimal fact name. Because there are minimal facts,like none.
Somehow, Gary's book makes me think of the scene in The Good Place, where Michael says that he could read all of Earth's literature in an hour, 'but this took me two weeks to get through. I mean ... it's so convoluted...' Granted, I haven't read it... but...
Bitten by snakes ... stepped on nails ... How does he find the time to work 70 hours a week?
Or is it part of his day job, nail-stepping snake catcher?
It is certainly a form of cowardice when someone turns off comments on their video.
It's also an admission that they know they're full of crap and don't want it pointed out.
adults talking about imaginary friends.....wtf
Honestly, I'd be happy to give Gary all 12 disciples. If you told me "12 religious dudes thought they saw their cult leader after he died!" my reaction wouldn't be "oh wow, that must mean he really came back to life!" it'd be closer to "Wow, what a story Mark... Anyway, how is your--"
They must suffer from so much cognitive dissonance that it hurts
What 'historical case' ? There are only bible claims.
The historical case is "some people believed, and some other really believed" therefore the resurrection is historical. Just dont ask gary if he uses the same standard for other religious claims, including the ones from his own bible (aka. moses in the old testament).
🙂
Gary has been paid to do nothing for the past 14 years, and so have his research assistants... I'd like to take his role upon his retirement. Anyone want to be my research assistant?
I think you need to call it the Minimal Witnesses*Hypothesis*.
🤔 I wonder if Gary will have written more words than are actually in the New Testament by the end of volume four???
I've been snake hunting many times, I live in Florida so the government pays bounties for some of them, and I've never stepped on a nail while doing so.
Do you go after the big snakes?
I’ve seen some videos on RUclips. Very interesting. ✌️
@moonshoes11 they pay by foot, so yeah. I don't solo anything bigger than 8-10 feet though. I may be Florida man, but I'm not suicidal.
@@timeshark8727
Good idea. Stay safe. 👍
The book should be targeted at the average Christian’s understanding, so a picture book would be appropriate (especially with your animation skills).
how patronising. Many Christians are highly educated. Your comment says more about you than Christians.
@@PC-vg8vn Anyone who believes in magic doesn't get much respect as "educated".
Paul, you just get better with every passing day.
Where is the evidence that the historical Cephas was a disciple of ANYBODY? Paul says Cephas was the first to whom Christ appeared, which is consistent with the notion that he was probably the historical founder of any post-Jesus movement that would become Christianity, but Paul seems to make no distinction between these visitations and his own, which was definitely a vision. Even if I were to grant a "minimal fact" that there was a historical Jesus and that he was crucified (a stretch), I'm not required thereby to grant he had any noteworthy disciples who actually persisted into the post-Cephas movement.
Without that tenuous connection, the first two facts are just "Some guy died, and later, some other people thought he had transcended death." Nothing about that tells us anything about their relationship, if they had any. Nothing that says Cephas even knew OF Jesus when founding the movement; his "Christ" could have been combined with stories of an existent apocalyptic preacher. We can get to Christianity without a single living disciple, even with a historical crucified Jesus, so Habermas is still asking too much by calling these people disciples and implying a relationship to Jesus he can't prove.
The word 'facts' in this is doing lifting so heavy it's able to resist the pull of a neutron star....
It's almost embarrassing that he claims to have spent 32,000 hours on these shreds of "evidence". That's more than 15 years of solid slogging through these clips and fragments and hearsay.
oops, I read the caption as "liver failure" initially
Plenty of people are willing to die for their faith after the founder dies, so why is there even a need for a single witness? Willingness to die for one’s faith is not evidence for the supernatural claims of that faith. Look at the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam who are heavily persecuted by Muslims. Their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Messiah but died. The religion is zealous and grew in followers from the time of his death to the tens of millions today even with its own apologetics tradition just like Christianity. Unlike Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who actively made supernatural claims about himself, there’s no reason to believe that Jesus ever claimed that he would rise from the dead or made any supernatural claims. The idea of the resurrection became important much later and long after Jesus’ death as part of a rich hagiographical tradition.
Just wondering who finishes his book first: Gary Habermas or George R.R. Martin?
It's easy to make a claim about a supernatural event two millennia ago, obviously much harder to come up with the evidence for it.
I would love an episode on the politics of how a Pharisee, Paul, was able to obtain the political power to “persecute Christians”, whatever that means. Was he given the power to issue death sentences to Christians, for example? Was there some kind of already established alignment or agreement between the Roman Empire and some elements within the Israelite internal political structure?
Yes, you literally shown yourself to be ignorant of Jewish-Roman history simply revealing your inconfidence in this subject.
@@justice8718 Yep, not that up on Jewish-Roman history. Why do you think I asked the question?
I am very late, but i just wanted to tell you how much I love how you do what you do. This was fantastic, as always. Thanks for your precision!
A 2000 year old first century Galilean cult leader zombie.
Correct. Wouldn't you expect that if God walked around town for thirty years and then died and became a zombie and then the graves opened and the corpses and skeletons rose out and "appeared to many" that the locals would have noticed?
Why would an all powerful God want to be invisible? It makes no sense. If God wanted large numbers of humans believing he exists and lives them why not be visible?
Why does the phrase “post hoc rationalization” keep coming to mind?
Being a resurrection scholar is akin to being a scholar on the contents of the basket Little Red Riding Hood brought to Grandma's house.
Being a "biblical scholar" is like having a degree in Dungeons & Dragons... except the kids who play D&D understand that it's all just pretend.
Take an intro to philosophy class sometime - Gary probly
@@Dulc3B00kbyBrant0n Do they teach ad hominem fallacies in intro philosophy classes?
I think you meant a "Bible-believing scholar".
Dan McClellan is a real biblical scholar, because he knows the original languages backward and forward.
00:01 Gary Habermas has dedicated 14 years of research to the resurrection case
02:14 Many disciples disappeared after Jesus' death, leaving behind minimal witnesses.
04:26 Scholar's disagreement on disciples' transformation and willingness to die for their faith
06:40 Debate about confidence in the other 12 disciples' testimonies
09:06 Gary Habermas believes only minimal Witnesses are relevant for his theory
11:13 The burden of proof is on the positive claimant.
13:32 Gary Habermas' extended facts on Jesus's resurrection fail to account for group experiences and skepticism of James.
15:46 James' conversion not necessarily linked to resurrection appearance
18:13 Minimal Witnesses theory aligns with the experiences of believers.
20:13 The speaker lacks research assistance and financial resources for the project.