The Core Forms of Incense Shop Boxing
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2021
- Incense Shop Boxing, or Xiang Dian Quan (香店拳) is a style which has around a hundred years of history and originates from when a Buddhist monk taught a version of southern Luohan Quan to the owner of an incense shop in Fuzhou city. There are many styles of Luohan Quan found in Fujian province, as well as in Taiwan and Malaysia, where they are sometimes known as Southern Shaolin Boxing. In this video, Master Lin Shan Quan and his student Alex Xu demonstrate the four core forms of the style.
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How much connection do you see in these forms to Karate? Let me know in the comments below!
The first was technique wice, almost identical with its okinawan sibling art, although its obvious that the movements here were not as economically executed ,and were more wider ingeneral than in karate.
The second form also resembled pretty much karate.
Btw. I Admire your work
keep going✌
I’m not the only person who has been studying the connection between the “three battles” form. I believe it’s probably the dragon that holds the energy characteristics of this system, because it’s a system of energy development. Not necessarily chi but more so the development of intent. If you worry all the time about “what is chi?” then you’re going to miss the point. I just wanted to get that out of the way. We all should just except that we have a life force and let that happen on its own accord. Then and only then can we learn how to use our minds to create force. Not “dragon ball z” or “air bender/last avatar” either. It’s not a 🍿 movie!!!:)
Karate is a word that Funakoshi came up with and did it with the permission of a board of directors. It was a business decision. You see, the people that the masters were selling the Okinawan art to liked the new version of punch and kick that did away with all of the other things that I mentioned. It’s well known that the original art was transported from China and is rooted in the Northern Shaolin Long Fist (Shorin Ryu) and the Southern Styles (Shorei Ryu). The Shorei style included Dragon, Tiger, and Lohan from Fukien and here’s the connection to the Incense Shop you have provided. It’s the root for the Sanchin, Seisan, Naihanchi, and Gojushiho(Useishi) of Karate.
I’ll have to come up with a carefully worded analysis of the actual Chinese Taolu vs Okinawa Kata breakdown. How fun!! Thanks for sharing and giving us the opportunity!
First of all, it´s an honor for us you show those forms, so thnk you a lot. I train Shorin ryu karate since 1995. If you look close, in the first form, the main moves you see are in naihanchi katas. My impression is that the okinawan karatekas took those moves to conpound at least the first naihanchi, an the other two are made with variations of it or including other moves not in the first kata. Coincidentialy, the naihanchi kata are the fundation of shorin katas. The way you move the feet is the same in okinawan karate, but the postures may change. The way you salute in the forms is the same first move in the Pasai katas. May be if i search closer, may be more. Thank you again
@@juanmanuelcoria79 very interesting statement about Naihanchi. I’ve always seen a similarity between seisan, Naihanchi, and Gojushiho. If you investigate the Lohan systems you will find evidence of these kata(with the exception of Naihanchi) that still exist with the same name but in a different language. There’s definitely a connection! I agree with you though that Naihanchi is probably a composite form to serve as a seed or bridge even. It’s definitely got multiple purpose. I believe it’s a true “pure Ryu Kyu” kata, and Seisan and Useishi(gojushiho) are an imported form that was further developed.
Circular blocks/ strikes before straight thrusts, executing several strikes in place without any stepping between them, open handed straight thrusts, and simultaneous thrusting of both arms could be considered similarities to Uechi-ryu. But these are correlations, not necessarily causal relationships. I find correlations to other CMA in Uechi-ryu that none of the Southern styles I've seen have, and then again the manner of execution in older Uechi-ryu teachers is usually more typically Okinawan than Chinese. I think these comparisons are interesting but not too important. As long as you can use shenfa properly with whatever techniques you've learned, it's not that important where they come from.
More westerners need to go train with Lin Shan Quan. I’ve never seen a teacher so hungry to share his kung fu.
If there was no Covid and China wasn’t Communist I would camp in front of his shop every day if I had to.
After watching Jesse's videos again, I've felt like going to China just to learn from him, he seems like a great guy and has a intense hunger to teach
My Chung Tao students did Four Gates at a martial arts competition and the other competitors had never seen anything like it. They received a lot of compliments. One of my students received first place in his division and was able to compete for best overall. Although he did not win, he was able to compete against much higher ranked martial artists. He was the only white belt competing against black belts. What an honor. We must preserve these older taolu (forms). The beauty of Chinese martial arts is its practicality and lack of predictability.
Happy to see you preserve this master's performance and forms. I cincerely hope that his few students will preserve the spirit of their master as well as the forms.
Wow. I see the similarities of Okinawan stuff in here. Super practical. I dig it.
Love this system! I practice karate and white crane. Your content is always informative. Thanks.
The secondary fist is held halfway between extension and hip/ribs. This reminds of a Karate form I saw recently from Jesse Enkamp.
The 2nd demonstator is quite good. Fast and powerful without bulk.
Looking at the last form (108) I see many of the movements from karate's kanku sho and kanku dai (kushanku). That's a fun connection to see knowing the history behind karate.
I've seen the low crossed arms in a few forms with many seem to be assuming it's a low center block. I'm not so sure. I've seen this also in Fiore's Flower of Battle described as the Armored version of the Iron Gate. Basically a wrestling defense that allows defender to ward off something akin to a single leg takedown by sprawling one leg back and push opponent downward with hands or if in armor, with crossed fist.
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Great video. The moves look awsome. Needs many hours to get there. Thanks for sharing, Will. Always inspiring 🙏
1)Three Battle/San Zhan or Sanchin in Goju-Ryu Karate-Do, somehow the footwork/hand techniques are quite long.
2)108 hands/Yi Bai Ling Pa look like more complex than Suparinpei(108 hands) in Goju-Ryu Karate-Do...Somehow it's good to see their root there.
Anyway, did you travel with Jesse Enkamp because the master who performed the first sequence appear in his channel.
Thanks for sharing. Keep it up.
Yes, I organised the trip. I also have a playlist of my own interviews I shot during the trip. Thanks for watching!
superb. Good to see a different style of the form San Zhan/three battles, as it's my first form in Ghor Cho
Love that intro man, you're gonna be at 100k subs before you know it.
I know this sounds strange, but I'd love to see him do some light contact sparring! It's been generations probably since these movements were last pressure tested, but there's always a chance he was taught their proper application. It might give some insight to Karate's own intended use!
Most of the traditional chinese martial arts, or traditional martial arts in general do not do sparring, sadly.
It's easier to do sparring when you've got a bigger school. One of the downsides of the old school master-disciples system is that unless your master has a lot of students the only way you're gonna be doing any sparring is by going out and meeting other martial artists. My teacher is very old school and does things by way of private lessons, but that means I only get to spar if I bring someone in to see my teacher or I go and play with other martial artists elsewhere.
He might be a bit rusty when it comes to getting hit, he’s no longer as spry as he used to be despite his good health
@@angsern8455 Oh yeah, it would be very dangerous, no doubt. It's a shame, since he seems to know some very valuable stuff, and an application of his techniques could do a lot for karate
@@unmessable12 It's good you're still making time to spar!
Thus was awesome. Great job! I need to find an application tutorials of this.
I need to find more about this style.
Fantastic and fascinating
Thanks 👍
Great job 👌
cool！first time seen this form and found a lot similar to southern fist such as Wing Chun and Crane fist。and feel that this form looks very combatful。
Cool Kung Fu forms. Not theatrical Wushu, more grounded/earthed like Karate kata. "108" is a number used a lot in classical yoga for meditation, breathing exercises & asana
I found very interesting the way they can send out the force, even when the tetracting hand only moves half way backwards. Love it!
The retracted arm has NOTHING to do with power generation. That's a myth that Karate and Taekwon-Do students have been told for generations. The retracted arm is used to CONTROL the opponent by twisting and pulling on his limbs, clothing or hair. The goal there isn't about developing power.
It's about controlling the opponent's body to open them up to attack and at the same time making it hard for them to hit you because you've pulled and twisted them off balance. I mean, look at boxers. They don't retract their hands to generate power, but, they still hit extremely hard. Their hands have very little to do with power generation. They generate power via movement of their legs/waist/ back/shoulders
The retracted hand principle is similar principle in Tkd/Karate/Chinese arts. Northern Chinese arts actually generate power via the legs whereas Southern arts typically use circular movements of the waist.
This is off-topic but the reason for the difference in method of generating power is the differences in geography and lifestyle and history seen in Northern and Southern China.
To over simplify, Northern China, is, largely, flat. It's a fertile flood plain. So there was lots of room for fighting and lots of opportunity to develop arts that moved around a lot. Also, lots of REASON to fight because lots of people wanted that arable land.
Southern China is mountainous and mountain paths (even today) tend to be treacherous. You don't wan't to be jumping around and using long stances in that kind of environment. Southern China's environment was just as dangerous as an attacker. This meant that Southern Chinese arts tended to cover far less ground and (I've heard) are dominated by horse stance or four-six stances.
Boxers generate power via a pivot on the balls of their feet. They turn their center of mass and allows them to apply their body mass into the blow. Northern Chinese fighters use a similar concept. They generate power via the feet, pressing them into the ground to generate reaction force (or by stepping to generate momentum). They channel that force (developed by the legs) into their waist and then into their hands. So their power comes from their legs/root pressing (or stepping) into the ground. This power is then routed through their waist and finally out their hands into their enemy. It's a method that relies on firmish footing and ample, available space (so I've heard).
Southern Chinese fighters couldn't use that method of power generation because of their geography and ALSO because many of them did trading via small wooden boats. Those kinds of craft don't give you much room to move about either. But, ADDITIONALLY, the floors of those boats get very slippery when they're wet. So if you had to fight on board a small, wooden, boat the last thing you will want to do is use any power generation method that involves pushing with your feet or big steps. You would definitely slip and fall doing any of that.
So, that's another reason they use the turning of the waist to generate power rather than a pressing or stepping or pivoting of the feet.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 Great overview. It's like having a crash course of mixed lessons in martial arts, history, geography, anthropology into one short concise essay. Thank you for sharing.
I did a video explaining those exact ideas a while back. Northern vs Southern styles
@@MonkeyStealsPeach Thanks! I'll be sure to check up on it.
@@MonkeyStealsPeach Yep, I saw it. I should've attributed the things you spoke about.
The way Northern styles mimicked the movement of horses with their legs. That is the term "Northern legs" doesn't JUST refer to kicking.
I believe you mentioned the effect of geography on martial arts as well. For example, the way Hakka families who went from North to South saw their arts change because of changes in geography; wide plains to narrow mountain spaces.
I took the bit about waist power vs leg power from a discussion by Dr Yang Jwing Ming on the development of Fuzhui White Crane.
He mentioned that using the legs to generate power was dangerous on a small, slippery, wooden craft. He said, that danger gave impetus to the development of waist power.
In Vietnam, there are also many sect that call southern Shaolin , or the founder learns from the teachers of southern Shaolin, although the name of the sect has changed. There is also a lot of Forms with the word luohan in it.
Which one is it that you're talking about? Hồng Gia Lá Phụ Sơn Quyền? There's many Shaolins/Thiếu Lâm in VN.
@@Veepee92
The famous Hongjia Quan in Vietnam has two branches, the Guangxi shaolin Hongjia in the North (Thiếu lâm hồng gia Việt Nam) and the Shaolin Hongjia Ha chau (thiếu lâm hồng gia Hà Châu) in the South. In the northern branch, the first Form in the introduction is the "La Hán xuất động" (羅漢 出 峒). (Luohan leave the cave)
In addition, there are many sects, which are called southern Shaolin, or the founder learns part or all of the term southern Shaolin.
@@Veepee92
-Thiếu Lâm Nam bắc phái ruclips.net/video/Qv61UsBFphs/видео.html
-Nam thiếu lâm tự sơn đông
ruclips.net/video/EyVETFGqgEI/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Q1P2_NNi-EY/видео.html
-Nam Thiếu lâm
-Thiếu Lâm Liễu đôi
@@Veepee92 Thiếu lâm nam phái trúc liên nội gia quyền
ruclips.net/video/Z0VtsdwgtiQ/видео.html
Thiếu lâm nam quyền
ruclips.net/video/77GgvBtGud4/видео.html
Thiếu Lâm La Hán quyền
ruclips.net/video/VmH3yl2VNH0/видео.html
@@Veepee92 I can tell a lots more. There are also many small Sects, They are local, They are local, heirloom, do not go to the media, very small, so it is difficult to enumerate them all
. Sect Thiếu Lâm nội gia quyền of Great Grand master Trần Tiến also famous in his alive time (1911-2011)
ruclips.net/video/oU0TVSspzlI/видео.html
There are many sects, they do not claim to be related to Southern Shaolin, but there are many Forms related to Luohan name
.
Đại môn lực công La Hán quyền 大門力功羅漢拳 - Võ Kinh Vạn An phái
ruclips.net/video/WR25iZBgktg/видео.html
The most famous is the sect created by the great Grandmaster Doan Tam Anh, with 18 Luohans Forms.
ruclips.net/video/Nq-kKhICSl8/видео.html
Excellent stuff. Maybe to Shuri-Te groups which I have no experience but I can’t nothing much in common with Tomari-Te or Naha-Te karate groups.
1 Sanchin/Seisan
2 Papuren
3 Shisochin
4 Suparinpei
Very good foundation for Kung Fu.
The San Zhan shown here has some similar dynamics to Bamboo Forest Mantis' first form, "Single Bridge". The "3 Gates" form's techniques are quite close to the form of the same name I learned in Pak Mei, though the movement directions are entirely different. It also has a strong flavor of southern Dragon Shape boxing.
Feel good that he had student to train
Love ♥️ from 🇮🇳 India
I'd love to see the bunkai of this
Came from Jesse enkamps series on China. Do you perhaps have a video of master lin performing the original seisan kata or know what the kata is called in incense fist boxing? Thanks a lot and great video. 👍
There is no form called Seisan in Incense Shop Boxing. The form Jesse talked about in that video is the first one shown in this video, which is called Sanzhan, pronounced Sanchin in Japanese
@@MonkeyStealsPeach thanks you so much for the information. Interesting how in karate there is a distinction between sanzhan or sanchin kata and seisan kata. Would I be accurate in assuming that perhaps sanchin is more from white crane style sanzhan and the incense version of sanzhan developed into seisan? Or did jesse mistake incense fist sanzhan for the original seisan?
I love the monkey intro, have you ever seen the comic book version that preceded the film? it has some awesome art.
Thanks man, no I haven’t sorry
@@MonkeyStealsPeach It's amazing, really strange creative art. They used the basic design for monkey and a couple characters but they went with a more classic Chinese look for the movie rather than the weird mind bending art in the original comic.
We have similar white crane movement in NGO CHO KUN. that whip Takes years to develop. I can see his system Is rich with real world combat applications.
Wow
Checked a bit, well it was devoloped based on the Southern Shaorin 罗汉拳，so it has a lot similar to Karate then...interesting。and It is called 香店拳 based on 福州 as well，not a famous one in the southen fist system. Never heard it before。
Looks similar to pak mei
Will, do you have any recommendations on books about northern mantis arts?
Haven’t seen any good ones in English sorry
This is amazing!!! What other training methods do they engage in? Do they do anything like Tan Tui like some of the northern styles? Or, Chi Sao (Wing Chun) & San Sao (Southern Mantis)? It clearly has a parent style from Fujian White Crane.
@Traditional Shotokan Karate Norway Northern Shaolin Kung Fu isn't lost. It's all over the place.
Shaolin Kung Fu is widespread throughout the province of Henan, far from lost. Check out my videos from Dengfeng
Im not sure what makes up the entire syllabus of Incense Shop Boxing sorry. I don’t think they have anything like sticky hands but I remember they had some partner drills
The best way to answer that is to watch my videos and see for yourself hahaha!
Well dunno about expert, maybe geek is better haha. But yea... so it seems to be that there was actually no Southern Shaolin Temple, and the story about monks fleeing south was just part of folklore created by Triad groups in Fujian. I’m planning to do a video talking about it in the future but I still need to do more research to validate my claims.
Just knowing the form means nothing, knowing the application of each movement means nothing to. Every form is designed to make you master a specific principle. Understanding the principle and applying it tonevery movement... That is it!
What's the purpose of those downward fingtertip thrusts (with bent elbows) done at the end of the form? I'm certain I see a karate joint lock and throw in the last form.
As I understand it, that is primarily a power delivery method, where you train to send the whip from the spine all the way to the very tips of the fingers with every available articulation down the chain. In application, it is elementary training to deliver techniques like curved or oblique thrusts.
@@LanChiaoPeng It's interesting because ready positions in ITF Taekwon-Do and Japanese karate look very similar to that and I've always wondered about their application. There's something else I'm curious about. Does every form have a specific purpose?
Like, does every form have a theme or something specific the student is supposed to learn? The reason I ask is that there was a Karate master, Itosu Ankoh who said that every karate student MUST know the purpose of the individual kata they are trying to learn BEFORE training in that kata.
I train in ITF Taekwon-do but I do NOT know what the purpose of each of the forms I've learned are. I can't find anything on it online either. Mostly, I think, because others have not thought to ask.
I know one purpose of the first two sequences we're asked to learn (they teach sine wave movement, a sort of up down movement unique to ITF Taekwon-Do) but I've NO idea about the rest.
Do they teach the purposes of the forms in Chinese martial arts?
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 The similarities between especially older-generation TKD and karate are no coincidence. The memoirs of Gen.Choi Hong Hi state that he developed TKD out of Shotokan karate, plus some inputs from taekkyon and allegedly other unnamed traditional Korean martial arts he managed to learn. Whatever the case, Shotokan karate was the base of original TKD, hence the similarities.
As for the purposes of the forms, they are by right taught in TCMA. As always, however, actual practice and quality of instruction may vary immensely from one teacher to the next. Again, by right, the forms are meant to be textbooks of biomechanics, psychology, meditative practice, and combat tactics, and really good teachers can spend years breaking down a single form just so. Then you have the other ones, who...simply don't.
I’d like to make a video in response to your questions. I composed a rather lengthy version and don’t want you and your viewers to have to read that much!😉
Would it be possible for me to share with you that way?? I’d be glad to do that for the channel.
Sure, you could post either as video or text in the Monkey Steals Peach Facebook group
What influenced incense boxing?
👍👍👍👍👍
2:35 'four gates' can anyone name the Karate equivalent of this form? I know I've seen it before.
This looks as if a relative san chin.
Just after seeing Jesse Enkamp
Can this master fight ?
Funny name but really good Kungfu.
It's called such because the founder of the art owned an incense shop, plus the art stayed in the family (and the shop) to the current day.