Check out this video next on the history of Zen: ruclips.net/video/lRAW-GN4TUA/видео.html Consider joining us on Patreon if you find benefit in these videos! Get fun extras like exclusive behind-the-scenes videos, audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂
16:55: what is our face like before our parents were born.. this came from the Chinese koan "父母未生("我"which is silent)前，哪个是我本来面目”. It's the way Chinese statements are structured that usually resulted in slightly twisted interpretation. this statement should be interpreted as "what is our primordial nature or face before we were born". Really enjoyed the very insightful talks by this channel. Thank you very much!
Doug, you are a good teacher. Thank you for your efforts. My students are referred to your talks on a regular basis - a very real resource. May we all find peace.. Thay Kozen
Fascinating! My own opinion is that sudden enlightenment does not make much sense, because one has to be fully established in samatha and vipassana and have a solid ethical foundation. At least that is for gaining full enlightenment. I think one can enter into incredibly powerful non-dual states without any of what I have mentioned, but I do not believe that is full enlightenment.
Interesting. As a musician many years ago, there were those around me who insisted on years of training following particular, approved directions. Others worked intuitively and their music flowed without constraint. In the end, they could all achieve beautiful performances although neither could follow the other's path. It would be pointless having an opinion on right or wrong. All that mattered was the music.
It is like understanding what music is. You can learn an instrument, learn your own expression and finally see that the core of music can't be described by notes, rhythms and instruments but has allways been something ungraspable that is within everything. The realisation is instant but the learning process takes time.
From my understanding of the poem, it seem to reject the clinging on of views? And seem to allure to the fact that one has that potential to let go of clinging totally ? I recall there was a gradual school of Zen, the northern school, established by the monk who wrote the first poem…but as it is not as glamorous as the sudden school and as a result, it eventually died out…?
thanks for this video Doug, I'm continuing to watch your videos even thought I find some more difficult to absorb than others - perhaps an example of a gradual awakening...
You're very welcome Geoff! Yes, some of the early approach to dharma is quite different from later material. I don't think we have to accept it all to start along the path, often we will come to see that certain teachings fit us better than others.
It took buddha sarasanka kalpa lakshayak( in pali language) years to train his mind to reach to the level of buddhahood. From experience I know to master a particular skill,it requires time.Similary,In order to attain enlightenment it requires practice and time.
Another possible oversight from the zen tradition/teacher in regards to graduation path as a path for the deluded is not recognizing that Buddha in presenting the 4 noble teachings for overcoming/dissolving suffering is a gradual path!, which suggests Buddha was teaching a deluded path!….which of course ignores the wisdom and insight within the process of practice
Great video Doug! I am finding it to be like peeling layers of an onion where the different layers are delusions. Maybe enlightenment is in the middle. 🙂
Doug, I am redoing my comment because RUclips does not allow links, with good reason. "The life of a stream-enterer does not appear alien or frightening to contemporary people; rather, it appears admirable. Many of the stream-enterers at the time of the Buddha were lay disciples and were exemplary people. They were virtuous, led contented family lives, and were engaged in society, helping their community and the Buddhist religion. Although stream-enterers have reached a level of realization, they still possess a subtle degree of defilement." Luang Por Payutto
I feel like the sudden enlightenment may not last in the person’s experience or may take time to integrate. There could be a yo-yo effect of going back and forth between the old consciousness and the new for a time until the new is totally established and abiding forever. It must be rare that a person is completely unconscious without any practice of any sort and then all of a sudden switches to a Buddha and never goes back asleep. Gradual awakening allows the mind to adjust over time and integrate the changes which means the awakening sticks and the mind is able to abide more permanently in those gradually awakened states. So although slow, the gradual process seems more permanent and thorough
Some might wonder if the focus on "immediate enlightenment" wasn't due to contact with Daoism, with its concept of "original nature". I think its up for debate, as the interaction between Buddhism and Taoism is still something that is being explored, and it's not clear exactly how much these religious traditions influenced each other (Daoism had spread to Japan, for instance, centuries before Buddhism). There is no doubt, however, that they did so.
Yes it could have been partly influenced by Daoism, though I think it was already in the air in India with ideas like Tathāgatagarbha. And of course as I say in the video there was an aspect even of the early tradition that did see immediate enlightenment as a possibility under certain circumstances.
@@DougsDharma There was two-way communication of religious ideas, though I am not an expert on the origins of specific concepts. I do know there is emerging scholarly perspectives that a text such as the Heart Sutra actually came from China and was later translated into Sanskrit.
@@Magnulus76 This is disputed. I'm not sure it's really resolved where the Heart Sutra came from, though to be fair I'm not totally up on that scholarship.
Hey Doug I've noticed that during my struggle to meditate more often that when my mind is calm and clear it is much more difficult for me to actually meditate where as when my mind is chaotic I have a much easier time meditating I was just curious what your thoughts are on that
It's hard to explain its like I sit there and close my eyes and it just doesn't feel necessary but when I'm trying to clear my mind it's easy to go threw the motions I close my eyes and count and it just happens
@@zack-vk2nm Meditation is just sitting. Focusing on a result is sort of beside the point. This can be difficult to accept. So much of our lives in the modern western world are about making judgements and analysis. But maybe it's something to just try. I think you will find the results can be interesting. Whatever negative emotions arise, just accept them with kindness and self-compassion.
Hi Doug, I just discovered your channel and I just wanted to say I love your videos. I have kind of an off topic question about meditation. I've recently started meditating and I find myself yawning a lot during the session. On one hand, when I yawn I'm still relaxed and mindful of my breathing and I don't try to repress or control it, but on the other I find it becomes a little annoying because I become distracted by thoughts of how much I'm yawning. I find it actually kind of funny, but I wonder if my yawning is problematic in any way. All the best, Nathan
Ha! Well I hesitate to guess in your situation without knowing exactly what's going on, but in general we are advised simply to be aware of what's passing at the moment. If yawning is happening, then just be aware, "yawning". Perhaps there is some subtle underlying mental state that conditions the yawning. But if yawning meditation is what's coming up for you now, then go with it.
Very insightful to the enlightenment concepts in Buddhism. I am curious on what you think about an enlightenment process. Instead of a one-time awakening, would one have multiple levels of awakening until one gets to the full arahantship or buddhahood. And if so, would zen awaken be part of these finer steps perhaps before Sodabhanan (entering the stream level)? And if so, what do you think is an indication for partially enlightenment and fully enlightenment?
Good questions Sompop but hard for me to answer precisely. Especially with regard to Zen, I'm not entirely clear on what the experience is or what it really entails.
Hi doug i was wondering what your opinion on phscyodelic drugs and trips that give you a different outlook on life and if its recommend as a way to reach enlightenment in Buddhism :)
Thanks for the question Sedan Dan. I have no clue as to their effectiveness, but Buddhism does enjoin us to avoid forms of mental intoxication. So I don't think such methods would be recommended.
@@DougsDharma thanks for replying, intersting to know. I have been quite interested in all the phscology of Buddhism and trips. Never tried it myself, but from what people say i thought it would go hand in hand with Buddhist philosophy. in alot of the Buddhist books i read it is not recommended as it distracts the mind, which is not useful in a meditation practice; I did want to get your opinion as you seem rather informed.
I wouldn't recommend it. Taking drugs makes it much more likely to break any of the other 4 precepts and also clinging to wrong views due to intense emotional responses.
According to buddhism if you used drugs in this life, you become less knowledgeable or mentel disorder in next life, you can't understand dharma without a clear mind.there are no short cuts to archive niravana.
@@sedandan3293 Some people may find them useful to get a new perspective on life but they aren't something that is taught in Buddhism as necessary or even beneficial. Cultures that use entheogenic substances as part of their rituals do so within specific social contexts that are sacred and meaningful within those contexts. It's a holistic package, and reducing it to a "trip" is the sort of utilitarian mindset that is at the heart of a great deal of suffering in the modern western world. So, approach this topic with care, caution, and respect.
@@prashantlakhera6156 Then that is wrong. We live in the 21st century where those things are blatantly not true. Thich Nhat Hanh does not believe in remembering past lives so you would call him not a Buddhist? There are many types of Buddhism for different purposes.
@@consciouspresence5880 when you attained enlightenment, you could remember many many past lives. This is stated by the Buddha many times in the Sutta. If you truly want to learn Buddhism, follow the Buddha’s teachings, not anyone else’s.
@@DougsDharma See for example the Kathavatthu, Book 2 Section 9. The key term is ekābhisamaya vs anupubbābhisamaya for the Sarvastivada. The meaning is that the 4 noble truths are seen at once and the specific fetters are cut off sudden and all at once and not gradually.
@@leuchtendebirke Ah yes, this is a good point. It has to do with the attainment itself: is the relevant attainment achieved in an instant, or over a (short) period of time. As such it's more a kind of abhidhamma debate. The preparative effort is still gradual.
@@DougsDharma Yes, for most of us the path, the preparative effort, is gradual. I like Maha Ghosananda's take on this: enllightenment always happens here an now, but to realize that can take lifetimes.
@@leuchtendebirke I believe the idea is that the seeing is an event? Just like a maths problem where the solution suddenly Dawns on you? But the foundations have to be there
Check out this video next on the history of Zen: ruclips.net/video/lRAW-GN4TUA/видео.html
Consider joining us on Patreon if you find benefit in these videos! Get fun extras like exclusive behind-the-scenes videos, audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂
Thank you Doug
16:55: what is our face like before our parents were born.. this came from the Chinese koan "父母未生("我"which is silent)前，哪个是我本来面目”. It's the way Chinese statements are structured that usually resulted in slightly twisted interpretation. this statement should be interpreted as "what is our primordial nature or face before we were born".
Really enjoyed the very insightful talks by this channel. Thank you very much!
Thanks for the information! 🙏
Doug, you are a good teacher. Thank you for your efforts. My students are referred to your talks on a regular basis - a very real resource. May we all find peace.. Thay Kozen
That's very kind of you to say Kozen. Thanks for sending them along! I hope they find some of what helps them. 🙏
Fascinating! My own opinion is that sudden enlightenment does not make much sense, because one has to be fully established in samatha and vipassana and have a solid ethical foundation. At least that is for gaining full enlightenment. I think one can enter into incredibly powerful non-dual states without any of what I have mentioned, but I do not believe that is full enlightenment.
Thanks Tomás! Yes I agree, it seems that way to me as well, but what do I know? 😀
Interesting. As a musician many years ago, there were those around me who insisted on years of training following particular, approved directions. Others worked intuitively and their music flowed without constraint. In the end, they could all achieve beautiful performances although neither could follow the other's path. It would be pointless having an opinion on right or wrong. All that mattered was the music.
May all people in the world be happy🙏
🙏😊
What are you doing about it?
Not only humans tho
It is like understanding what music is. You can learn an instrument, learn your own expression and finally see that the core of music can't be described by notes, rhythms and instruments but has allways been something ungraspable that is within everything. The realisation is instant but the learning process takes time.
🙏
Wow this video is so informative and easy to understand. Excellent! Thanks Doug!
You're very welcome, Tu! I'm so glad it was helpful. 🙏
Such an excellent episode, thank you Doug, I may be able to start donating to your patreon again soon.
Best,
Brian
You’re very welcome Brian! Hope you are well. 🙏
Excellent teaching.
Thanks Nancy, glad you found it worthwhile. 🙏
Brand new subscription, your content is presented in such a thought-provoking way, thank you!
Thanks and welcome Animelee!
Ever best video💙💙💙
That illiterate is the sixth and the last Patriarch of Chan, Huineng. Thank you, Doug, for the discussion of gradual, and sudden enlightenment!
That's right Nazareno, you're very welcome! 🙏🙂
From my understanding of the poem, it seem to reject the clinging on of views? And seem to allure to the fact that one has that potential to let go of clinging totally ? I recall there was a gradual school of Zen, the northern school, established by the monk who wrote the first poem…but as it is not as glamorous as the sudden school and as a result, it eventually died out…?
@@handynas6529 well, the Northern School persisted, as Dogen explained.
@@bayarielnazarenostotomas4691 I see…thanks!! May I know if you know where I could find more info on this?
@@handynas6529 If my memory serves me right, it's in the Shobogenzo.
thanks for this video Doug, I'm continuing to watch your videos even thought I find some more difficult to absorb than others - perhaps an example of a gradual awakening...
You're very welcome Geoff! Yes, some of the early approach to dharma is quite different from later material. I don't think we have to accept it all to start along the path, often we will come to see that certain teachings fit us better than others.
Thanks
🙏😊
Very good. I much agree with you.
🙏😊
It took buddha sarasanka kalpa lakshayak( in pali language) years to train his mind to reach to the level of buddhahood. From experience I know to master a particular skill,it requires time.Similary,In order to attain enlightenment it requires practice and time.
Yes, it certainly does take time. Thanks Rangana.
Thank you, very useful
You are very welcome!
Nice work, your videos are so interesting !
Glad you like them Lord Merlin!
Another possible oversight from the zen tradition/teacher in regards to graduation path as a path for the deluded is not recognizing that Buddha in presenting the 4 noble teachings for overcoming/dissolving suffering is a gradual path!, which suggests Buddha was teaching a deluded path!….which of course ignores the wisdom and insight within the process of practice
Great video. I think it’s both.
Yes, maybe so!
Great video Doug! I am finding it to be like peeling layers of an onion where the different layers are delusions. Maybe enlightenment is in the middle. 🙂
Thanks Craig, yes it is kind of like peeling layers of an onion!
Doug, I am redoing my comment because RUclips does not allow links, with good reason.
"The life of a stream-enterer does not appear alien or frightening to contemporary people; rather, it appears admirable. Many of the stream-enterers at the time of the Buddha were lay disciples and were exemplary people. They were virtuous, led contented family lives, and were engaged in society, helping their community and the Buddhist religion. Although stream-enterers have reached a level of realization, they still possess a subtle degree of defilement." Luang Por Payutto
Right, stream entry is one good aim for laypeople.
I feel like the sudden enlightenment may not last in the person’s experience or may take time to integrate. There could be a yo-yo effect of going back and forth between the old consciousness and the new for a time until the new is totally established and abiding forever. It must be rare that a person is completely unconscious without any practice of any sort and then all of a sudden switches to a Buddha and never goes back asleep. Gradual awakening allows the mind to adjust over time and integrate the changes which means the awakening sticks and the mind is able to abide more permanently in those gradually awakened states. So although slow, the gradual process seems more permanent and thorough
Yes, if it's not complete then it's not really enlightenment, at least by the standards of the early suttas.
Some might wonder if the focus on "immediate enlightenment" wasn't due to contact with Daoism, with its concept of "original nature". I think its up for debate, as the interaction between Buddhism and Taoism is still something that is being explored, and it's not clear exactly how much these religious traditions influenced each other (Daoism had spread to Japan, for instance, centuries before Buddhism). There is no doubt, however, that they did so.
Yes it could have been partly influenced by Daoism, though I think it was already in the air in India with ideas like Tathāgatagarbha. And of course as I say in the video there was an aspect even of the early tradition that did see immediate enlightenment as a possibility under certain circumstances.
@@DougsDharma There was two-way communication of religious ideas, though I am not an expert on the origins of specific concepts. I do know there is emerging scholarly perspectives that a text such as the Heart Sutra actually came from China and was later translated into Sanskrit.
@@Magnulus76 This is disputed. I'm not sure it's really resolved where the Heart Sutra came from, though to be fair I'm not totally up on that scholarship.
Hi Smith, How are you?
Can use please tell us about PURE LAND buddhism?
I might do a video about that in the future if I can find some good scholarly material on it. Thanks for the request! 🙂
Hey Doug I've noticed that during my struggle to meditate more often that when my mind is calm and clear it is much more difficult for me to actually meditate where as when my mind is chaotic I have a much easier time meditating I was just curious what your thoughts are on that
That surprises me, I'd wonder what you meant by "easy to meditate" and "hard to meditate" under those conditions.
It's hard to explain its like I sit there and close my eyes and it just doesn't feel necessary but when I'm trying to clear my mind it's easy to go threw the motions I close my eyes and count and it just happens
@@zack-vk2nm Meditation is just sitting. Focusing on a result is sort of beside the point.
This can be difficult to accept. So much of our lives in the modern western world are about making judgements and analysis. But maybe it's something to just try. I think you will find the results can be interesting. Whatever negative emotions arise, just accept them with kindness and self-compassion.
Hi Doug, I just discovered your channel and I just wanted to say I love your videos.
I have kind of an off topic question about meditation. I've recently started meditating and I find myself yawning a lot during the session. On one hand, when I yawn I'm still relaxed and mindful of my breathing and I don't try to repress or control it, but on the other I find it becomes a little annoying because I become distracted by thoughts of how much I'm yawning. I find it actually kind of funny, but I wonder if my yawning is problematic in any way.
All the best,
Nathan
Ha! Well I hesitate to guess in your situation without knowing exactly what's going on, but in general we are advised simply to be aware of what's passing at the moment. If yawning is happening, then just be aware, "yawning". Perhaps there is some subtle underlying mental state that conditions the yawning. But if yawning meditation is what's coming up for you now, then go with it.
@@DougsDharma Thanks for the advice!
Very insightful to the enlightenment concepts in Buddhism. I am curious on what you think about an enlightenment process. Instead of a one-time awakening, would one have multiple levels of awakening until one gets to the full arahantship or buddhahood. And if so, would zen awaken be part of these finer steps perhaps before Sodabhanan (entering the stream level)? And if so, what do you think is an indication for partially enlightenment and fully enlightenment?
Good questions Sompop but hard for me to answer precisely. Especially with regard to Zen, I'm not entirely clear on what the experience is or what it really entails.
🙏🏽
🙏
Hi doug i was wondering what your opinion on phscyodelic drugs and trips that give you a different outlook on life and if its recommend as a way to reach enlightenment in Buddhism :)
Thanks for the question Sedan Dan. I have no clue as to their effectiveness, but Buddhism does enjoin us to avoid forms of mental intoxication. So I don't think such methods would be recommended.
@@DougsDharma thanks for replying, intersting to know. I have been quite interested in all the phscology of Buddhism and trips. Never tried it myself, but from what people say i thought it would go hand in hand with Buddhist philosophy. in alot of the Buddhist books i read it is not recommended as it distracts the mind, which is not useful in a meditation practice; I did want to get your opinion as you seem rather informed.
I wouldn't recommend it. Taking drugs makes it much more likely to break any of the other 4 precepts and also clinging to wrong views due to intense emotional responses.
According to buddhism if you used drugs in this life, you become less knowledgeable or mentel disorder in next life, you can't understand dharma without a clear mind.there are no short cuts to archive niravana.
@@sedandan3293 Some people may find them useful to get a new perspective on life but they aren't something that is taught in Buddhism as necessary or even beneficial.
Cultures that use entheogenic substances as part of their rituals do so within specific social contexts that are sacred and meaningful within those contexts. It's a holistic package, and reducing it to a "trip" is the sort of utilitarian mindset that is at the heart of a great deal of suffering in the modern western world. So, approach this topic with care, caution, and respect.
In Early Buddhism, it is said in suttas that enlightenment is sudden, but training of mind is very long, sometimes it can take multiple lifetimes
That's right Prashant, the training takes a long time.
Multiple lifetimes XDDD
@@consciouspresence5880 what is there to laugh about multiple lifetimes? It is the core doctrine of Buddhism
@@prashantlakhera6156 Then that is wrong. We live in the 21st century where those things are blatantly not true. Thich Nhat Hanh does not believe in remembering past lives so you would call him not a Buddhist? There are many types of Buddhism for different purposes.
@@consciouspresence5880 when you attained enlightenment, you could remember many many past lives. This is stated by the Buddha many times in the Sutta. If you truly want to learn Buddhism, follow the Buddha’s teachings, not anyone else’s.
Squirrel: did anyboy say nutshell? 23:33
😄 Yes they do get around.
The Theravada tradition actually defines itself as a tradition of sudden awakening.
Interesting pamokkha. Where are you finding this?
@@DougsDharma See for example the Kathavatthu, Book 2 Section 9. The key term is ekābhisamaya vs anupubbābhisamaya for the Sarvastivada. The meaning is that the 4 noble truths are seen at once and the specific fetters are cut off sudden and all at once and not gradually.
@@leuchtendebirke Ah yes, this is a good point. It has to do with the attainment itself: is the relevant attainment achieved in an instant, or over a (short) period of time. As such it's more a kind of abhidhamma debate. The preparative effort is still gradual.
@@DougsDharma Yes, for most of us the path, the preparative effort, is gradual. I like Maha Ghosananda's take on this: enllightenment always happens here an now, but to realize that can take lifetimes.
@@leuchtendebirke I believe the idea is that the seeing is an event? Just like a maths problem where the solution suddenly Dawns on you? But the foundations have to be there
😂 lol before enlightenment chop wood and carry water after enlightenment chop 🪓 Wood 🪵 and carry water💦
🙏😊
bla blablablabla how long it takes? 20 years?
5000 years.
With the help of DMT 1000 years.
Chang an is the original. You should use it, not the nipon word