It also only has a limit on adding threat to itself when the enemies are scheming. If you are using the basic thwart, the one that you add can go over that 6.
One thing I haven’t seen talked about is that every enemy attack encounter card becomes a scheme. So just in standard Assault and gang up become Advances. So too does any villain card that makes them attack. Which tend to go off more than any other encounter card type.
I'm super excited for both characters we've had revealed so far. My impression so far is the way you play him solo will be drastically different from how you can effectively play him at higher player counts, especially 3-4 players. While true for many heroes, I think he may be the character that's the most true for so far. I think solo, especially against difficult or not even difficult but low threat scenarios, you'll have to ignore a good part of his kit. I don't think he looks unplayable solo, but it may be an uphill battle. I love how he looks like he'll play so differently depending on your aspect! I don't have to have that to like a character (Drax), but it's still nice IMO. My initial impression is he'll definetely have more varied styles than Maria, at least at the start of this wave. I'm making the same prediction I did for Magnetto, he's going to drop signifigantly in power from 3+ players to solo. I haven't played Magnetto solo yet, but Nelson says he's A tier which is where I placed him after a lot of multiplayer, so I could very well be wrong lol! I guessed elsewhere he may be an A tier at 3+ player count, and maybe C tier solo. Thanks for the deep dive video. I always love to see them.
Stoked for Nick Fury! Maria Hill sounds more fun to deck build with, kind of like Spider-Woman, but I'd wager a guess that I'll play Fury more. His mechanics feel like a combination of some of my favorite heroes (Shadowcat and Gambit), and his mechanics are just oozing with theme.
I wanna give Nick some 'Pulse Grenades'! Keep 'em around & Roll 'em out from cover to make big bang on a turn he draws 'Concentrated Fire' and then use CF on minion to back to Stealth. I think 'Pinned Down' on minions is gonna be nice for Protection and let 'em build up and be no danger in either-Hero mode, probably even a benefit with such.
Admittedly I was definitely in the “not excited for this wave” camp… Now? I’m fully on board. But genuinely curious… what’s the point of the permanent suit upgrades having a physical/mental resource icon?
I think all upgrades have a resource icon, so do Wolverine's Claws for example. It can interact with cards like Psylocke's nemesis set. He might even have something like Spectrum or Storm's resource generator, generating the resource on the form you're currently in - though I personally think this is unlikely!
Agreed he shares DNA with a lot of characters. Maria feels more unique whereas Nick iterates on alot of previous mechanics. I think his Assault suit is just a functionally better version of Gambit's ability impacting all Attacks and threat acquisition seems easier than Gambit's counters. One interesting line is Lie in Wait is a preparation and an attack so you can one shot minions with it (not saying its efficient or powerful, just fun).
The threat acquisition vs. Gambit's counters is interesting and makes me wonder if I rated Nick's damage slightly too low. I really wonder if we get 2x Spray Fire or 1x.
@@VillainTheory Yeh and I may be wrong and Gambit generates his counters faster because of the one guaranteed each turn and the resource. Who knows until we get the full list and cards in hand
There might be some play here around some very underused cards. My first thoughts are "Get Over Here" which never sees any use outside of Thor. Being able to pull minions from other players to charge up the stealth suit could be interesting. Also, "Great Responibility" could be a way to manage threat even while in stealth form. I'm pretty sure that you can grab 1 threat from Stealth Suit first before blocking the rest with Great Responibility. Seems like a good way to use Fury's hit points as a resource which you normally won't be tapling into as he isn't taking attacks.
Fortunately "Get Over Here" doesn't work in regards to pulling minions unless you have the aerial trait. Fortunately, in multiplayer, your buddy Thor can gather up a bunch of minions for you to spray fire on. I think you are right in how Great Responsibility functions. I'm not super keen on it still here, but we'll see. It has potential. I am eager to see his full 16 cards and if he has any other ways to change form!
I'm not sure float like a butterfly combos with the dust based on the ruling they made for unlikely duo "The ability on Float Like a Butterfly is an interrupt that triggers at the initiation of the attack, which would be before the enemy becomes confused or damaged by Unlikely Duo."
Aaaa you're right. I haven't seen that ruling but, upon rereading Float and Prism Dust, it totally checks out. Thank you! I'll see if I can edit that part out of the video.
I think the Watch will actually be subtly important to keep your threat counters below 6 w/o breaking cover. There's enough response/interrupt threat prevention that I think it will be pretty safe to just sit in Stealth mode and only come out for something like Spray Fire + Basic Attack before ducking back in. I definitely feel like you want to wait to be able to do multiple fully-juiced attacks in Assault. You can have Sky-Destroyer and allies poking in reliable damage on Stealth turns. I think Grant Ward will be pretty sweet for Nick; you have the Watch for a reliable mental resource and can add Field Agents to keep him around longer. It's funny, if Nick gets a gun type upgrade I don't know if it will be better or worse for it to be an attack. No attack means you stay in stealth, but attack means you can pump threat into it.
It's true that the watch will cause you to be able to efficiently Stealth for longer. I'm not sure if that part of it is especially beneficial, but it is interesting in terms of tempo and how often you will flip to Assault. Definitely wish I'd covered that
Because Nick gets extra use out of both basic thwarts and basic attacks, I think he'll always be RRRRRREADY TO RRRRUMBLE! Seriously, I think Ready to Rumble will be a strong card for him. Make a basic attack and spend some threat, take out a minion with Concentrated Fire to flip back to Stealth and ready with RtR, then do a basic thwart to start charging up for next turn.
Honestly, I think you're underestimating what his damage output will be, but I do recognize you're also trying to be conservative as we haven't actually played him yet. 😉 Also, since you mentioned Gambit so much, I think we need to give honorable mention to "Breaking and Entering" for Nick. It may not be the most efficient card, but it would allow him to thwart in AE which could help him manage the extra threat he's causing. A very well thought out video, I'm definitely looking forward to getting the S.H.I.E.L.D. box.
I'm not a big fan of Breaking and Entering, I think here you would just play a bigger thwarting card before flipping down or flipping back to hero form. But that could change if he gets alter-ego card draw. I was definitely a little cautious here. The last time I thought a hero was looking especially balanced was Nightcrawler who ended up falling short of my expectations in terms of power. Still perfectly viable but weaker than anticipated. Gambit might be a good power comparison but he has double resources and the X-Men/Mutant traits. Of course Nick's final cards and any new SHIELD stuff could change things dramatically too. And I can see myself moving his damage up by a star, definitely. We'll see. Happy to be wrong 😁
Also, for the watch, it says “up to”… does that mean you could spend only one? And the extra would simply be to keep the threat low and allow him to trigger his stealth ability (while under 5 threat) more often.
Thank you for the video good sir. I’m not the best at rulings when it comes to rules. How does his stealth interact with “quick strike” since they would attack, does that make em scheme? Or does the “quick strike” make it so they ONLY attack and can’t scheme?
Against Juggernaut, Nick Fury can sit in his stealth suit forever since Juggernaut will only ever Thwart. With enough counters, he'll just win with a couple attacks.
Do the cards that benefit from changing form, like surprise attack actually work with the suit changing form. Are they not only about your identity card changing form?
Yep! They do work. As long as it says "form" and you change from that to another "form", you're good to go. So they work for Spectrum's energy forms, Shadowcat or Vision's mass forms, and so on. I would think of them like "minor forms" and hero/alter-ego as "major forms", but changing from any kind of form to another works for those cards.
Guard was something I thought about, good shout. That will be unfortunate if it arises but at least you can probably make a basic attack (boosted by Assault) to clear it out in the worst case. Maybe another reason to run the Vivian ally
@@VillainTheory I thought you were allowed to use a card's abilities for as much as it's possible to use them if the card doesn't have a cost arrow. It may say "deal 3 damage to the villain and," but couldn't one still use the part after the "and"? Thematically, this fits as well. He's blasting a bunch of enemies with his pistols in the artwork, and, of course, the "guards" are in front of the villain, so they take the hit instead. I realize theme doesn't matter with regard to the rules, but I like the image created in this case.
Unfortunately it's an "attack" which hits the villain, and you're not allowed to attack the villain if there's a Guard minion. So to my understanding of the rules, the game just doesn't let you play it. Thematically though you should absolutely be able to just blast all the minions
@@VillainTheory Is there more wording elsewhere to support this? This is the exact wording in the Rules Reference: While a minion with the guard keyword is engaged with a player, that player cannot use cards they control to attack a villain without this keyword. This says cannot use cards they control "to attack the villain." It doesn't say you can't use the card at all.
@@VillainTheory This isn't quite the same, but it seems to support that attack occurring: Q: While Wasp is in Giant hero form, how does her second ability interact with the guard keyword? A: Wasp’s second ability allows her basic attack to simultaneously damage each enemy that Wasp chooses. Although Wasp may choose the villain as a target while a card with the guard keyword is in play, no damage will be dealt to the villain. Due to the simultaneous nature of this ability, this applies even if the card with the guard keyword is removed from play during her basic attack’s resolution.
Gathering intel doesn’t specify that you can only put threat on Stealth form. Couldn’t you just camp in Assault form and use your basic thwart to keep the suit full of counters?
![Ep. 17: Basic Cards - Are They Too Strong? [Shadow of the Cast with @NelsonAllOverCards]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9s5y_6YwIcQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Ep. 17: Basic Cards — Are They Too Strong? [Shadow of the Cast with @NelsonAllOverCards]](/img/tr.png)
![Maria Hill: The Ultimate Support Hero? [Marvel Champions Deep Dive]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6tiolqIT6ZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Just so you know, Stealth suit can go to 6 normally. It says if there’s 5 or less put it here. So it only stops putting at 6
Oh of course, thanks! Edited out the incorrect part
Oh, that never occurred to me! I'm glad you pointed it out! Hopefully, I'll remember that when I play him. It seems likely I might forget at first.
It also only has a limit on adding threat to itself when the enemies are scheming. If you are using the basic thwart, the one that you add can go over that 6.
Powering up Prism Dust thematically must mean he's choosing to throw Pocket Sand at the enemy REALLY hard!
Haha! Or maybe just LOTS of pocket sand! Or both!
Keep it up. Great, as always.
One thing I haven’t seen talked about is that every enemy attack encounter card becomes a scheme. So just in standard Assault and gang up become Advances. So too does any villain card that makes them attack. Which tend to go off more than any other encounter card type.
I'm super excited for both characters we've had revealed so far.
My impression so far is the way you play him solo will be drastically different from how you can effectively play him at higher player counts, especially 3-4 players. While true for many heroes, I think he may be the character that's the most true for so far. I think solo, especially against difficult or not even difficult but low threat scenarios, you'll have to ignore a good part of his kit. I don't think he looks unplayable solo, but it may be an uphill battle.
I love how he looks like he'll play so differently depending on your aspect! I don't have to have that to like a character (Drax), but it's still nice IMO. My initial impression is he'll definetely have more varied styles than Maria, at least at the start of this wave.
I'm making the same prediction I did for Magnetto, he's going to drop signifigantly in power from 3+ players to solo. I haven't played Magnetto solo yet, but Nelson says he's A tier which is where I placed him after a lot of multiplayer, so I could very well be wrong lol! I guessed elsewhere he may be an A tier at 3+ player count, and maybe C tier solo.
Thanks for the deep dive video. I always love to see them.
I love the art on NF's identity too. Very hyped for the hero (and Maria Hill too). cheers
Stoked for Nick Fury! Maria Hill sounds more fun to deck build with, kind of like Spider-Woman, but I'd wager a guess that I'll play Fury more. His mechanics feel like a combination of some of my favorite heroes (Shadowcat and Gambit), and his mechanics are just oozing with theme.
I wanna give Nick some 'Pulse Grenades'! Keep 'em around & Roll 'em out from cover to make big bang on a turn he draws 'Concentrated Fire' and then use CF on minion to back to Stealth. I think 'Pinned Down' on minions is gonna be nice for Protection and let 'em build up and be no danger in either-Hero mode, probably even a benefit with such.
Pulse Grenades is fun and seems kinda thematic! But I like the Pinned Down idea even more 👀
21:50 he could possibly be the best minion clearer.
Admittedly I was definitely in the “not excited for this wave” camp… Now? I’m fully on board.
But genuinely curious… what’s the point of the permanent suit upgrades having a physical/mental resource icon?
I think all upgrades have a resource icon, so do Wolverine's Claws for example. It can interact with cards like Psylocke's nemesis set. He might even have something like Spectrum or Storm's resource generator, generating the resource on the form you're currently in - though I personally think this is unlikely!
It may also be future proofing in case they make (more) cards that care about the resource icons on cards in play.
@@VillainTheory Makes sense! Didn’t think about resource gens like Storms Crown… hope it gets some attention!
Agreed he shares DNA with a lot of characters. Maria feels more unique whereas Nick iterates on alot of previous mechanics. I think his Assault suit is just a functionally better version of Gambit's ability impacting all Attacks and threat acquisition seems easier than Gambit's counters. One interesting line is Lie in Wait is a preparation and an attack so you can one shot minions with it (not saying its efficient or powerful, just fun).
The threat acquisition vs. Gambit's counters is interesting and makes me wonder if I rated Nick's damage slightly too low. I really wonder if we get 2x Spray Fire or 1x.
@@VillainTheory Yeh and I may be wrong and Gambit generates his counters faster because of the one guaranteed each turn and the resource. Who knows until we get the full list and cards in hand
There might be some play here around some very underused cards. My first thoughts are "Get Over Here" which never sees any use outside of Thor. Being able to pull minions from other players to charge up the stealth suit could be interesting. Also, "Great Responibility" could be a way to manage threat even while in stealth form. I'm pretty sure that you can grab 1 threat from Stealth Suit first before blocking the rest with Great Responibility. Seems like a good way to use Fury's hit points as a resource which you normally won't be tapling into as he isn't taking attacks.
Fortunately "Get Over Here" doesn't work in regards to pulling minions unless you have the aerial trait. Fortunately, in multiplayer, your buddy Thor can gather up a bunch of minions for you to spray fire on.
I think you are right in how Great Responsibility functions. I'm not super keen on it still here, but we'll see. It has potential. I am eager to see his full 16 cards and if he has any other ways to change form!
I'm not sure float like a butterfly combos with the dust based on the ruling they made for unlikely duo "The ability on Float Like a Butterfly is an interrupt that triggers at the initiation of the attack, which would be before the enemy becomes confused or damaged by Unlikely Duo."
Aaaa you're right. I haven't seen that ruling but, upon rereading Float and Prism Dust, it totally checks out. Thank you! I'll see if I can edit that part out of the video.
I think the Watch will actually be subtly important to keep your threat counters below 6 w/o breaking cover. There's enough response/interrupt threat prevention that I think it will be pretty safe to just sit in Stealth mode and only come out for something like Spray Fire + Basic Attack before ducking back in. I definitely feel like you want to wait to be able to do multiple fully-juiced attacks in Assault. You can have Sky-Destroyer and allies poking in reliable damage on Stealth turns. I think Grant Ward will be pretty sweet for Nick; you have the Watch for a reliable mental resource and can add Field Agents to keep him around longer.
It's funny, if Nick gets a gun type upgrade I don't know if it will be better or worse for it to be an attack. No attack means you stay in stealth, but attack means you can pump threat into it.
It's true that the watch will cause you to be able to efficiently Stealth for longer. I'm not sure if that part of it is especially beneficial, but it is interesting in terms of tempo and how often you will flip to Assault. Definitely wish I'd covered that
Because Nick gets extra use out of both basic thwarts and basic attacks, I think he'll always be RRRRRREADY TO RRRRUMBLE!
Seriously, I think Ready to Rumble will be a strong card for him. Make a basic attack and spend some threat, take out a minion with Concentrated Fire to flip back to Stealth and ready with RtR, then do a basic thwart to start charging up for next turn.
Ready to Rumble looks great for him, I should have mentioned it with the form changing cards or the basic THW build!
Honestly, I think you're underestimating what his damage output will be, but I do recognize you're also trying to be conservative as we haven't actually played him yet. 😉 Also, since you mentioned Gambit so much, I think we need to give honorable mention to "Breaking and Entering" for Nick. It may not be the most efficient card, but it would allow him to thwart in AE which could help him manage the extra threat he's causing. A very well thought out video, I'm definitely looking forward to getting the S.H.I.E.L.D. box.
I'm not a big fan of Breaking and Entering, I think here you would just play a bigger thwarting card before flipping down or flipping back to hero form. But that could change if he gets alter-ego card draw.
I was definitely a little cautious here. The last time I thought a hero was looking especially balanced was Nightcrawler who ended up falling short of my expectations in terms of power. Still perfectly viable but weaker than anticipated. Gambit might be a good power comparison but he has double resources and the X-Men/Mutant traits.
Of course Nick's final cards and any new SHIELD stuff could change things dramatically too. And I can see myself moving his damage up by a star, definitely. We'll see. Happy to be wrong 😁
Also, for the watch, it says “up to”… does that mean you could spend only one? And the extra would simply be to keep the threat low and allow him to trigger his stealth ability (while under 5 threat) more often.
1 or 2 threat, to generate 1 or 2 resources! So it's flexible. Doing so will allow Stealth to keep functioning longer too, yep
I would be very surprised if one of his unrevealed cards isn't a defense event/reaction that adds threat to his suit and/or lets him swap to stealth
I did not think Nick Fury would be coming with different forms 😂
Thank you for the video good sir. I’m not the best at rulings when it comes to rules. How does his stealth interact with “quick strike” since they would attack, does that make em scheme? Or does the “quick strike” make it so they ONLY attack and can’t scheme?
Quickstrike would activate because you're in hero form - but the stealth suit would cause the minions to scheme!
Against Juggernaut, Nick Fury can sit in his stealth suit forever since Juggernaut will only ever Thwart. With enough counters, he'll just win with a couple attacks.
Okay, Juggernaut vs. Nick Fury is hilarious
You have to stay hero, to do so, because its à forced interrupt hero
I’d like Nick Furry and Captain Americat hero packs.
Nick looks very strong and equally fun. I think he’ll be good in all 4 aspects too.
I agree about the aspects! I'm slightly more cautious about Protection but certainly all four aspects looks fun and usable!
Do the cards that benefit from changing form, like surprise attack actually work with the suit changing form. Are they not only about your identity card changing form?
Yep! They do work. As long as it says "form" and you change from that to another "form", you're good to go. So they work for Spectrum's energy forms, Shadowcat or Vision's mass forms, and so on. I would think of them like "minor forms" and hero/alter-ego as "major forms", but changing from any kind of form to another works for those cards.
Unlike the Storm and Iceman counterparts, Spray Fire gets shut down by Guard minions. That could be annoying.
Guard was something I thought about, good shout. That will be unfortunate if it arises but at least you can probably make a basic attack (boosted by Assault) to clear it out in the worst case.
Maybe another reason to run the Vivian ally
@@VillainTheory I thought you were allowed to use a card's abilities for as much as it's possible to use them if the card doesn't have a cost arrow. It may say "deal 3 damage to the villain and," but couldn't one still use the part after the "and"? Thematically, this fits as well. He's blasting a bunch of enemies with his pistols in the artwork, and, of course, the "guards" are in front of the villain, so they take the hit instead. I realize theme doesn't matter with regard to the rules, but I like the image created in this case.
Unfortunately it's an "attack" which hits the villain, and you're not allowed to attack the villain if there's a Guard minion. So to my understanding of the rules, the game just doesn't let you play it.
Thematically though you should absolutely be able to just blast all the minions
@@VillainTheory Is there more wording elsewhere to support this? This is the exact wording in the Rules Reference: While a minion with the guard keyword is engaged with a
player, that player cannot use cards they control to attack a
villain without this keyword.
This says cannot use cards they control "to attack the villain." It doesn't say you can't use the card at all.
@@VillainTheory This isn't quite the same, but it seems to support that attack occurring: Q: While Wasp is in Giant hero form, how does her second
ability interact with the guard keyword?
A: Wasp’s second ability allows her basic attack to
simultaneously damage each enemy that Wasp chooses.
Although Wasp may choose the villain as a target while a
card with the guard keyword is in play, no damage will be
dealt to the villain. Due to the simultaneous nature of this
ability, this applies even if the card with the guard keyword
is removed from play during her basic attack’s resolution.
Gathering intel doesn’t specify that you can only put threat on Stealth form. Couldn’t you just camp in Assault form and use your basic thwart to keep the suit full of counters?
Yep! I think I say that at some point in the video. There isn't a ton of motivation to flip back to Stealth from from the cards we've seen
@ I must have missed that!
Can't believe you missed one line in a 50 minute video!!
Why was this one your hardest ever?
It's because this "Boom" guy kept chatting to me on Discord while I was trying to edit it, what a jerk...
@ 😂😂😂