Yes Thomas you have! A question of taste, a different way of putting it but equally true. It's hard not to get caught up in the hype and one-upsmanship, but really if it appeals to you, then you don't have to answer to anyone (except maybe for your better half!)
@@Coneman3 Unfortunately, some people misunderstand what objective/subjective mean. A short and close, but not entirely accurate way, to reword "subjective" is to say it's a matter of taste or personal preference. Truth is, there are thousands of books and essays by philosophers trying to pin down the meaning of the word and the truth is reading at least a few of them will help you encompass an understanding. In lieu of all this reading, at least for those speaking English, please let me assure you: the word subjective absolutely does describe it.
Couldn’t agree anymore if I tried. It’s all a matter of taste; are you wanting ultra transparent detail, emotional connection, get out of your seat danceability, shock and awe? There’s something for everyone. Find your sound, set your sail, make your stand and simply acknowledge that everyone’s ears, taste and budget are different. Keep being you!
Hey Mr.Mighty, thanks for your support! If you like something, then that's it, it's good! I like to be surprised, and I appreciate finding out that others liked the sound of that room when I didn't. I wanted to like it, but knowing others liked it was relief for me.
@@davelistenstohifi I had a listening session (at a dealer last summer) to a pair of KEF Blades (the older ones) and some higher end Naim kit, my music choice punished it hard and I was really disappointed. I did listen to some of my dealers music choices and they were amazing, but just shows that it’s about your taste and not the taste of others that matters. Keep up the great work, don’t be afraid to call out what doesn’t work for you and why! Life’s rich tapestry, eh? 😎
I managed a camera store for almost 3 decades and there are parallels to your story. I had a new customer come in to buy a camera and his friend, who was a pro photographer, had given him a list of what to buy. Looking at the list I was a little unsure if this was the best choice. It was a list of good gear though, maybe not what I would recommend. I sell him everything on the list and off he went. Two days later he’s back saying he didn’t know what his photographer friend was thinking, this was very different than what he was looking for, too big and heavy, not as many options for lenses. Anyway, I checked out everything, condition, any missing pieces, etc and everything was good. I then started asking him a few questions to get an idea of what would best fit his needs, now and for the future. He bought a camera and a couple of lenses with some money left over. He came back a few weeks later and told me how happy he was with his purchase. ( Which always made my day). Moral of the story is, people are different. Their preferences are different and what may be perfect for one person may not fit the needs, or tastes of another.
Hey Greatpix, thanks for the story. Yes, you are like the wise audio dealer who can parse out someone's requirements and likes and get them what works for them. This is a valuable thing! In your story I guess that the pro photographer friend is like audio reviewers ;-)
Totally agree, the best you can do as a reviewer, is to state your taste, that way people will have a reference point. Keep up the reviews but most of all keep it real.
I completely agree! The latter comment about diversity of opinion is so important. We must support each other following our path to our own individual "perfect sound". Glad you are here to give your path a voice.
In large part I think our schooling system is to blame. We're not taught HOW to think anymore but WHAT to think. Add a hefty dose of peer pressure and you've got yourself a bunch of docile sheeple. Then there's that one sheep in the flock saying: "I'm telling you, the man and the dog are working together!" Then the other sheep saying" Oh Rupert, always you and your conspiracy theories"
Just found this channel. Love it! Purely a subjective hobby. All down to personal preference and taste. No right or wrong. Every room is different and how the system or component synergizes with each other with a given speaker and interacts within that given room. At the end of the day, if your system triggers an emotional response or an upgrade that does this, enjoy it, its already doing its thing for you.
Yes, and I encourage people to try different components and setups. The more you hear the better your ability to judge and know what you like. As you said, no right or wrong, emotional engagement is key!
Just found your channel. I’m a new subscriber as well! I enjoyed your perspective and completely agree. I appreciate your being gobsmacked by commentary about the room you thought was terrible. I was at Axpona last year (large show outside of Chicago) and I was in a very expensive speaker room. I could not believe how harsh they were to my ears. They are priced over $30K US. I have 40 year old ADS speakers I love a whole lot more.
Hey Steve, yes correct sometimes I wonder where the progress is...my main speakers are 30 years old and pretty hard to beat still! I guess the emperor still has no clothes.
Gm ☕️💊 Great point ..perception is actually reality in this hobby. In my system , in my room , headphones vs speakers vs streaming vs vinyl vs cd vs reel to reel vs tubes , vs solid state vs hybrid, vs class A vs class B …there’s so many combinations YOU can make the system appeal to YOU . If there’s one thing I know ..is that I don’t know what you’re hearing. Ever wonder why Hearing Life isn’t invited to have a room to provide hearing tests. Between my age ( over 60) with decades of clubbing, concerts, going to the range along with tinnitus..it’s a miracle that I can enjoy this hobby at all. Great video.
Hey Carmine, I think you have summed up my entire 7 minute video in 4 words! "Perception is actually reality". Genius. I recently visited an audiophile who wore hearing aids, I don't think in the end that it diminished his enjoyment of the music.
The market / marketing of an AUDIOPHILE HEARING AID ( call it an enhancer) given the demographics of this hobby..may be a golden opportunity to be exploited. I’m now in my senior years ( a touch of tinnitus and hearing above 12 K is a myth) I’ve gone from room filling set ups of my youth..now it’s a nice headphone set up ( Bryston, Denafrips and Audeze ) along with a nice 🥃…and tho it’s not for everyone..it’s good for me . Also ,looking forward to the Toronto Audiofest 🫡
Couldn’t agree more! I’ve been an “audio enthusiast“ for more years than I care to share. What IS clearest is that the perception of any system or piece of gear is more so between one’s ears.
Just like people enjoy different types of music, they will have personal preference as to what type of sound they like. I was never a measurement first person. Measurements can be a small guide before buying, and measurements can help you when you are having problems in your room, that’s it. Building a relationship with a dealer, who will allow home trials is paramount. Your ears, your room and your personal preferences are your best guide and can’t be measured. We should all just respect each other ability to agree to disagree and enjoy the music.
Good video and subject, I subscribed. This certainly is an interesting hobby to say the least. I am now of the mindset, that it takes years to figure out what really sounds good to your ear in regards to finding the gear that produces that pleasing sound, that is the trick. I have had gear through here that folks rave about, and I could not stand it. I found a HiFi buddy to assist me in this journey, he really changed the way I look at this hobby. His house looks like a high end HiFi shop, and he knows many big names in the industry. I met him through US AudioMart of all places, when I went to his house to pick up a pair of Zu DW Omen speakers I purchased from him. I spent hours in his house listening to gear, and now we are good friends. He has really helped me out when purchasing or considering a purchase in regards to audio gear, along with regular BS'ing on the phone, just a great stand up guy. My point, find someone you trust that has been in the hobby for awhile, with the same taste, and hopefully hearing, to help guide you along the way.
Futile comment, but here we go. Music has been very important to me for the last 40+ years. I always thought one needs good enough equiptment, to separate the instruments, to really hear the music. For this you need any amplifier, good source and decent speakers. 500 will get you there, 1000 most certainly will. You may invest more, if you have the money, and you will get nicer sound. But the enjoyment of the music is the same. My strongest musical experiences were when I was 16, with my very lousy stereo system. Its nice to have good rig, but its not necessary.
Hey Redpill, thanks for taking the time to comment! Yes, I remember listening to my DIY radioshack speakers played on my Sony integrated, I did have a thorens with a grado cart back then anyway, but DSOTM has never moved me as much as when I listened to that in my room when I was 16.
So true, my most favorite piece of gear is still my 1970 Sansui 4000 receiver. It just has "That Sound", something this modern gear cannot replicate. I'm 59.
Wonderful, hang on to that Sansui. Maybe even get it checked out, verify the DC offset and power supply, make sure it's working 100% and get another 50 years enjoyment out of it!
The room was set up rather extensively by one of the distributors of the speakers, it was as good as they felt it should be. Didn't hit my fancy but others liked it
The truthfulness of "different people like different sound" only goes so far when unamplified acoustic music is involved. If you have experience listening to live classical music or jazz in smaller venues you are unlikely to somehow end up liking a reproduced sound that is way off your perception of live sound.
Yes, true Gaboro, the more experienced a listener you are, likely the more your preferences will converge with others who have the same experience. There are many people who do not have the same exposure to live music, but are they wrong in their opinions and preferences?
@@MasterofPlay7 My comment specifically addressed live music with no PA. If the instrument itself, unamplified, sounds shrill then that is how it must be reproduced and nobody should complain.
After 30+ years within HiFi I found out that "what it works for me" is a) SE tube amps (pre + power), and b) high efficiency speakers (best as OB). I enjoy variations in this what I like (e.g. I recently visited OJAS in SoHo/NY), but I do not spend time convincing other that what I like is the best. Regards from Copenhagen
That's awesome Goran, once you find a setup that resonates with you, enjoy and feel confident that you have made the right choice for yourself! There is something seductive about low power and high efficiency for sure.
Hi I totally understand your point, whats good for one person can be a total disaster for others thats HiFi sound in general, subjectivity at its best. However, I disagree with you about measurements though, measurements done correctly is a valuable guid in determining how, for example, a speaker performs in room and partnering power amplifiers behave with speakers especially speakers with difficult, challenging or/and awkward loads. Accurate measurements, when done correctly give you an indication on how equipment behaves and can also tel you other things like amplifiers sound characteristics like 2nd/3rd harmonic distortion profiles which in general can make an amplifier sound warm or harsh (tube amps). Other measurements to consider (I haven't seen this done that much) speaker cabinet resonance measurements, I'll admit, I do like vintage speakers wit high cabinet resonance which make them sound nice and warm. The question worth asking is companies make products with vanishingly low distortion, would we like the accurate and sterile sound they produce. I too have attended HiFi shows and walked into top tier company rooms and yes I agree, I wouldn't own some of them.
Well, regarding measurements, I was really saying that it is not easy and sometimes not possible at all to look at the measurements of a component and decide if you will like the sound or not. So many times the mesurements do not cover all of the audible characteristics of a component.
You watch or read a dozen reviews on a hi-fi component or pair of speakers, likely you’ll get a dozen conflicting opinions. Even if all 12 reviewers are united in their opinion, it doesn’t mean that, that component is good for every application. I’ve found maybe 2 or 3 RUclips reviewers who’ve reviewed equipment I own, or have owned, who have reached the same conclusion as me about this equipment, so I tend to trust/value their opinion. I still listen to opposing opinions, but know who to turn to first.
Of all the folks I have found that has been solid in regards to my taste, is Steve Guttenberg. I own a few pieces that he has reviewed and he has really knocked it out of the park.
@@michaelwright1602 persomally, I find the comments made by and opinions stated by Zero Fidelity and A British Audiophile most relevant to my way of thinking!
You also can't go with a hotel room set up without a dedicated space that had the time for room treatment and a proper speaker set up with cleaner power.
Hey Penn, yes the problem in this room was that I spoke to the presenter and they had an expert in these speakers spend the day before setting up and optimizing them! They sounded as good as they could, he seemed pretty pleased with the presentation.
Dave, I couldn’t agree with you more. Les gouts et Les couleurs like the French say. I am always taken aback by people who base their purchases on charts, oh look there’s no bump or roll off here so it must be good, that’s crazy to me. Most people who love the tube sound love it despite the measurement issues that might come with it. There is no replacement to listening to a product in your system. The best you can do as a RUclipsr is to create your lane and give a flavor of the sound signature of the products you review to people who share a similar sound signature as you. Definitely worth a follow.
Thanks man, I appreciate the subscription. Yeah, I realize that I cannot be everything to everyone, my value has to be my own voice and I hope people want to listen. Plus, it gives me an excuse to keep trying different stuff in my own room!
This one’s going to be long so prepare or skip I don’t care but when I started my journey, I went to a Best Buy Magnolia. I listened to Kev, R 11 or seven the three bookshelves the Bowers and Wilkins 600 something towers at the time and the Bowers and Wilkins 700 something at the time all of this was played off of a Marantz, I think 8012 the only speaker I could actually hear a difference on the Bowers and Wilkins 600 something and at the levels they were playing. It sounded like the voice was straining to the note. Having said that I could not tell a difference between any of the other speakers and the way they sounded, I say this because I am completely blind. I do not have a placebo effect on the way any of the cure looks if anybody should be able to hear a difference on them it’s going to be me because I rely on my hearing on a daily basis in Waze, normal people do notknow that’s not to say that if I put every single one of these pieces in my own room, I may not hear a difference because they may react to my room differently. This is just my experience so far, but I guess it points out just how different we all are.
Hi Jacob, that's an amazing story, true blind listening tests! That's pretty powerful to read that you didn't notice a difference in the other speakers, maybe there is a lot more sighted bias going on than we like to admit. Thanks for your comment!
There is no absolute truth, there is taste and opinion. This shouldn‘t come as a surprise. Good reviewers tell us about the sound and what the device is doing to it: warm, detailed, precise, wide, deep, strong on vocals etc.. You need to know what sound you like / what sound you are looking for and then find the recommendations to your preferences. It‘s that simple. It’s not „shocking“ or whatever.
Well, what shocked me was how different other people seemed to react to something that i really didn't like. The difference in opinion was startling. But, as a fan of black licorice, I know that my opinions are not always the majority.
Well said and great video Dave! I understand people obsessing over how well something measures. These are folks who are after the best and that's not necessarily wrong. Measurements can tell you how good something is without relying on your own subjective opinions. This can be good when starting out in Hifi but also has the potential to be very misleading. Perhaps the math side of my brain is a bit off. I get goosebumps listening to music but feel nothing looking at measurements.🍻
Thanks Chibs! Yes, it's easy and seems to make sense that an amp with 0.1% distortion will sound better than one with 0.0001% distortion, and if you haven't spent the time listening intently to nicely set up equipment it will be hard to understand the immeasurable differences. I would like it if the take away will be for people to trust their ears and choose what they like. Emotional involvement rules!
Wow, totally blown away by your post. Agree, Agree...... not an AC/DC fan and probably would have left the room. I have never suggested a best, in my 50 years in this hobby, I have always been surprised by the almost soul-ripping sounds people consider as "Great Sound". I have never believed in specs, I have only believed my ears. I'm no saying my gear is great, but I love the way it presents music. System: Aesthetix Mimas, PMC 25/23, Ariston RD 11 w. stax carbon arm, various cartridges.
Hey Gord, your system is made up with some pretty nice equipment, I'm sure it sounds great! I don't own any AC/DC but it would be fun to hear on a great system, as long as you don't find it grating!
Hi Dave just watched your impressions & how you felt about this particular room & i am with you on this one, I have personally been chasing for the ultimate sound but i cant seem to find it from the reviews audiophiles have been giving & i feel that we all have different perceptions & listening experiences on what we think is a good sound. I am going to stop wasting my money because i feel that different equipment will sound different in different environments & that this is the truth. I felt like i was missing out on a great sounding system but i feel it does not exist.
Hey Ricardo, thanks for your comment. Yes, good to live with your system for a while, put aside a bit of money in the meantime and when you identify something that you feel is lacking in your room, do some research and pull the trigger on something that you know is going to get you closer to the music.
Bravo Ricardo, much joy comes with that realization. Live with your equipment for a long while, put some money aside and then when you recognize some shortcomings, do your research and buy with confidence!
Good discussion. I've found reviewers who have similar taste to me. I spent the money to buy what they recommended and in some cases I didn't like the gear. A couple of them I did have the same positive experience they described and I continue to take their advice
Yes, so much of this is subjective and personal, and there's room for many tastes. Find someone whose tastes mirror your own and use that as your guide, that makes for helpful content!
I agree, It is definitely a matter of taste, but I do find it a bit hard to listen to reviews sometimes cause I listen to mostly metal, and the sound in such music varies in quality a lot, but good speakers and systems should bring out the best in all music styles, for me at least. I have tried many speakers and systems and noticed that while listening to them I can be amazed at how great the sound is at first, but then suddenly when I change artists/bands it can drastically go from great to terrible. Either it gets bright and harsh or gives off a boomy bass amongst other things. All in all, I have noticed that most audio files do not listen to my type of music, so it makes me extra cautious. The ACDC bit was a good example, but they do have albums with great sound. I do not consider myself a typical audiophile, I just came across this problem when I started having more money, and wanted to treat my music hobby to a better system, and went for something that people described as rock speakers. This could not be more wrong, and at that time I did not understand what was happening and tried to EQ the sh*t out of the stereo. After discovering why and what was happening I had du study many reviews closely and try to listen to what I could at the local stores carefully before buying anything. I had more money, but not enough to keep re-selling all the time. the goal was just to upgrade once. I am still baffled at this today, cause I don't understand why manufacturers have to enforce a stereo or speaker that has a built-in EQ that one can't change. It usually works like if something is missing in the sound you can't get it back, but you can reduce more with an optional EQ. Why is this? Why can't it be that we buy a product that is true to the recording and EQ our-self from there? I do get the thing about more dynamics, less distortion and open sound which I do accept and welcome, but the EQ part is still a mystery for me. I can understand though if you do not listen to the same music as me you might not even ever know or encounter this problem.
Hey Rockit, thanks for your reply! Let me know which metal bands I should look up, I'm curious to know what you are experiencing. Love to get some and try it myself at home. I find that my good system plays recordings well, they come out detailed so I can hear everything that is there. If the recording lacks something I don't want to add it back, I'd like to hear it as it was produced. The mixer is as much a part of the recorded music as the musicians so I want to hear it all accurately. For EQ, tone controls are largely missing these days, but speaker placement and setup can do a lot to affect the sound. Thanks for watching!
@@davelistenstohifi Placement doesn't really change the sound, it just gets things in phase. So when you get it right you should hear the singer in the middle, and the bass + treble should be more distinct. As for metal, It usually gets worse when it is fast metal with double kick drums. to listen to that one should have accurate bass, and I do, but if it is a product like let's say marantz which is considered warm, it comes off as having the bass turned too high and gives a boomy muffled sound. I would suggest Dimmu Borgir as a good test subject for speed as they have good production, at least on the album "Death Cult Armageddon", But if you are not familiar with the music you might not know what it is supposed to sound like, and I spent most my years growing up listening to headphones that might not have had the best quality, but they did not have bass and treble issues as I recall. To put it into perspective I can suggest that what I am using now of stereo does give an accurate soundstage to my memory, and it is Rotel amps + monitor audio speakers. they do give a lot better sound and detail than what I had in the younger days, yes, but they do not add or take away anything else. Just more clarity and open wider soundstage without affecting/changing the bass/treble region. I also have some speakers from GR Research that do a very good job. Even the new Pioneer vsx lx elite series gives a pretty pure sound, so one does not need to go super high-end to get great true sound, but you won't get the audiophile quality though. But I do admit that the pioneer I use with my TV now is impressive, and does not sound far off from a Rotel in fact. I have not heard all types of Stereo equipment, but things that will never be accepted in this house again are Klipsch speakers and Marantz amps. they sound amazing on some music, but just destroy my guitar-oriented metal. Klipsch made Deep Purple with the song Burn sound lifeless and took away all my feelings while listening. It just sounded like a dull 70's song with no life.
You are a genuine sir, and that's admirable! I agree with you. It could also be that you simply hear different. The importratnt thing is you are being truthful about what if feels like when the music enters your soul. I do like a tilted up sound, but of course the trade off is it is likely to become fatiguing... Some of the best gear I ever heard, I sold because...you guessed it, it was fatiguing. Cheers friend!
Hello JanPatrick, thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am telling it like I hear it, I cannot do anything else! Yeah, you like bright but it fatigues...I get it. I recently picked up a really nice Krell KSA50 power amp, it sounds amazing, 50 watts pure class A. It is not bright, but sounds...illuminated. The high end is really detailed but not forward, maybe there is something out there for you after all ;-)
Hey Carl, thanks for watching! Yes, speaker placement is very critical, and also free! Always experiment with the placement of the speakers, and of your listening position as well. An open mind is always appreciated as well ;-)
Interesting thoughts. I would not give up on measurements. While there may not be a strong correlation between a given individual's preferences and measurements, good objective performance expands the potential audience. A system tuned only by ear will sound good with some music and bad with others, regardless of recording quality and depending on the ear of the tuner. A system tuned with the aid of measurements will sound good to more people with any well-recorded music. For example, if I attempt to integrate a subwoofer by ear, some music will sound right while other music will be too lean or boomy. Some listeners may prefer more or less bass. If I get things close by ear and then use a UMIK-2 to help me with phase alignment and levels, most music will sound right to most listeners. Measurements don't guarantee engaging listening experiences. But they are useful tools that, if employed with skill, improve our chances! Certainly, measurements would have caught the harshness issue you experienced and helped the exhibitor to address the problem.
Hey DSnyder, thanks for the thoughtful comments! Yes you bring up good points, integrating subs and making sure that components meet certain requirements are good places to measure. My point is that looking at measurements and using that to select a component is rarely the path to musical bliss. I'll take your second paragraph-yes measurements would have certainly caught the issue with the harshness, but here's the thing: Many other people liked what they heard. If we 'fixed' the harshness, it would be less appealing to many people. I was told that even the expert from the US distributor of these speakers was in the room for a day setting up the speakers and this is what they ended up with, they were happy with the performance. Not for me, but apparently for many others!
@@davelistenstohifi - I also wonder if many folks (especially at audio shows) listen with their eyes more than their ears. Like how kids only want to eat food that's colorful. If there had been an acoustically transparent scrim in front of the system in that room you described, would those same people still have liked the sound? Would they have liked it much more if the harshness had been identified and addressed? From my study and experience, I'm pretty confident the answers are "no" and "yes", respectively. 😀 I've subscribed to your channel and am looking forward to hearing more of your observations about this hobby. Cheers.
Good and honest, but... some things aren't subjective, and residual energy in iron core inductors in loudspeakers is one of them. They do objectively distort the signal from the amp, so they are objectively worse than the same loudspeaker model with better components.
And yet, I bet that if you play both versions of that speaker to 100 people, there will be a significant portion that will prefer the one with 'inferior' coils. Good luck telling them that they are wrong! Yes, one may be closer to an ideal transducer, but because we are talking about music and emotion, not everyone will like the 'better' presentation. That's the point.
@@davelistenstohifi Yes, but you don't make you're reviews for those people. When I buy a kitchen appliance I want to know which one of the alternatives the buyers of them like, even if they have tested only one of them.
Well yes and no. There has been quite a bit of research on what people prefer in general and it is a more linear response. Does that mean everyone will like that ? No But there is a preference that most people like. Also a well engineered speaker which is linear is good to have since it will perform well in most rooms. Or will perform evenly over a bunch of rooms and will be easier to set up. So there are some very useful metrics. So things aren’t that much all over the place. But sure, to each their own on what they like.
Yes, certainly there is a general trend to what most people appreciate as 'Nice' but I do see some polarizing high end equipment that is either liked or not liked.
Totally agreed. We are just cataloging our experiences. Nothing more. Those who think they get to know whats good or bad from reviewers, are the ones stuck in the neverending cycle of hifi. Cause its all a lie. Everything sounds good. Everything sounds bad. It’s all about taste and execution. Great video Dave.
@@davelistenstohifi i can make anything sound good, and I can make anything sound bad. :-) Execution and matching matters. Plug n play doesnt always work.
There is indeed a technical and scientific understanding what is good sounding and what not. Frequency response, low distortions, symmetric filtering on the crossover points, which filter are in use, etc... room acoustics etc... this can be measured it can be categorized, yes there is indeed a common understanding what is good and what not from the mentioned view of science and technology. But and this is huge, we as people react different, have different experiences, prefere or dislike things. The reasons are endless, and especially with music we are kind of helpless to see it completely ibjective because our brain is not able to filter that information, it tells us straight if this is something you love or dislike. I think it was a evolutionary mechanism to preserve us from dangerous predators or situations. And seeing this with today's life that surrounds it makes the relationship with sound reproducing technology very special. It became and we feel it like that , a very subjective experience.
Yes, that's the part that tripped me up, I thought that if there were shortcomings that were obvious to me, then others would also hear. The fact that my opinion was so off threw me for a loop. That's why there are just so many different brands, technologies, designs, to appeal to different people. I love the variety that this brought us, we live in some golden years for equpiment diversity!
Yes, possibly people are inexperienced listeners, but they still have their likes and dislikes, and they are just as correct in liking what they like as much as I do. Re: getting old-your hearing can diminish, but your ability to listen gets better with experience!
Hello Dave ... Here's the thing: What we want to listen to is the recording. I don't want to listen to my system. It really is all about the music. For the electronics, measurements do matter. To give you the most realistic reproduction of the source you want amplifiers, DACs, Streamers, etc. to be 100% linear and transparent. You do not want them adding their character to the mix. To ensure this we measure them in isolation, checking distortion, frequency response, output levels etc. to be sure the electronics is up to snuff. This much can be quantified because the electronics is not largely affected by it's environment. For Speakers, phono cartridges, etc, these devices react to their environment and it is far more difficult to measure them in isolation. So we use the testing to eliminate the "stinkers" and rely more on subjective listening. Which is fine. For our in-home setups some measuring is very helpful. For example taking frequency response scans of a system in use can give us very good clues about the best speaker placements, room treatments, etc. Of course, as you point out the final judgement is to simply sit down and listen to your music and see how much you enjoy it. That, we cannot measure. But I will also advise two simple "technician's rules"... 1) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 2) If it is broke know when to stop fixing it. There is a time to simply sit back and let the music happen.
Thanks Douglas, those are wise words. Like I mentioned before, there are some measurements that can be made that are helpful, but selecting components based on what the spec sheet shows will never get you the music you are looking for, other than by chance. The technicians rules are difficult ones to teach, these almost have to be learned by experience unfortunately!
@@davelistenstohifi I can actually look at an amplifier's spec sheets (if honest) or measurements and pretty much tell you what it will sound like. There is a correlation that, if understood, will tell you what to expect. But the thing is that you don't want to hear your amplifier or DAC, etc. ... again they need to be audibly transparent for proper reproduction of music. With respect... that a person doesn't understand the measurements does not mean they are useless.
There is a best, really. It is best when you see a reviewer with your first name and the same Kenwood turntable on shelf. What could be better? I know - A thumbs up and subscribing. Thanks
I think part of the issue is fear. Very few of us will ever be in a position to have dozens, if not hundreds, of pieces in our rooms to really hear the differences. So you're left to hear stuff at a dealer or a show or just watch/read reviews. And since this hobby can be so expensive, there's this belief that I "have to nail it" when buying something. It has to be the best "bang for the buck" or it has to be "a giant killer." We're afraid that we'll buy something, get it home and hear little to no difference over our old gear. It really becomes too much of a black or white thing, when most gear in our price range is really just a shade of gray.
Yes, good point. Even more perilous since we cannot know if the review reflects what we are looking for. I'm lucky that much of my research on components has led me to improvements, and the ones that did not work out were able to be returned.
Hi Dave. You say you were expecting « real good music ». Utopia. But you have realized that we all have a different perception of that notion. I will read you and determine if I will follow you or not. Good luck.
Maybe I'll clarify-Real good music that I like. I'm looking for the connection to the music, that's what I want from my HiFi. A lot of the music I like does not appeal to others, just ask my kids!
You left out the fact that some are paid to say it sounds good! But yes the sound is very subjective. Some systems sound good at first and then ear fatigue sets in etc..
Yes Patrick, you are right, there are always people on the take who are trying to sway your opinion. Find people you trust and listen to them, the rest are for Entertainment Only!
@@davelistenstohifi it’s an old market stall trick - a couple of “employees” jump in to buy some piece of rubbish, and the rest of the crowd get sucked in.
I know Chris Isaak is a singer, but didn't know he was an audiophile! How do you get 7 thousand view's and only 1k subscribers? Am i missing something. Lots of people shag over high end gears, even if they sound edgy and harsh, it's almost like the monetary value deafens them. Ps. subscribed
Thanks for the Subscription! Getting subs can be a Wicked Game....Yeah, some high end equipment almost bullies you into liking it, with the shiny cabinets and sky high price tags. Makes you doubt your preference, how can it not sound good it costs $50,000!
Well said. Yet I still wonder what it actually was that sounded so bad. I've been to many shows with great gear. And not so great gear with big names. And its not just the variables of the show venue. Sometimes manufacturers get so stuck on an idea or something that once worked that they just cant let go. Like KEFs uni-q. I walked away from thay even when the room was full. And took my sanctuary in the next small conference room which was all glass... and the small electrostats that played there were like ointment for my aching ears. Unfortunately that brand didn't last long. And KEF still is. Just like Bose, right? Listening involves attention and training. Many people listen but they don't hear. They look but they don't see. For that you need some knowledge and wisdom. And that wisdom is also needed when you actually make stuff yourself. Then you learn what works and what doesn't. Measurements are a helpful tool, but useless without understanding physics. When you know physics but don't understand it you're set up for blunders. Engineering is about making compromises. Weighing one against the other. That's a matter of taste and vision for your goal. Often there is a better compromise or part, but then the marketing and financial department are starting to weigh in. Not to mention HR. I made my own speakers and modified a LOT of gear to change compromises for better ones, in my opinion. If i change some caps, thats 5x cheaper than when they get installed in the original. And often they are objectively better; ie more suited to the purpose.
Very good points. Yes, measurements are essential when you are building something, they need to be consistent and hit your design goals. But when it comes to choosing something to listen to music with, nothing better than your ears to guide you. In this instance, I think you make a great point, these speakers had some unique technologies, maybe they were stuck in the implementation. But it sounded good to some people so who am I to say?
Haha yes! I would say shopping, bartering, trading, building, upgrading...hopefully this is the pursuit of better sound and a closer emotional connection to the music, and this goal transcends the mere collection of shiny things...but I may be just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Lets be honest, the days of audio journalists speaking in absolutes pretty much died with Harry Pearson. Amir of AV science might be the last of that breed. Nearly everyone else, from the guys who present measurements like Erin's Audio Corner and Audioholics, to guys just providing listening impressions like Darko Audio and The Audiophiliac all provide caveats and disclaimers that its just their opinions. Being just another dude giving his opinions about audio is awesome, as there aren't many, and will never be enough people publicly providing their opinions about such an underrated hobby to suffice. We all need stop pretending all the old audio battle lines still exist, because they don't. Hell, there just isnt enough Audiophiles left to fight.
Noooo.....must....cause....division...haha thanks for your comment. I think the huge discrepancy between what I thought and others thought is the origin of this video. The title is for getting attention, just so more people can see my video and come together under the guise of 'Unity'. A lot of the shows are old guys like me, but I see young kids buying records and checking out high end audio, so there is some young blood coming in to help grow. Now, we just have to bring the word 'Audiophile' back from the brink so that people don't think it's a term of disparagement!
Also your tastes change over time. I have some rather nice speakers that are technically great but i no longer find them emotionally engaging so im gonna change them. I may sacrifice some technical aspects but thats fine. Go with what you like, everyones ears are different.
Hey Dilby, how do listeners NEED experience? Anyone can plunk down cash and buy the speakers they like. No experience needed. Not sure I understand your point.
I was confused as at the show, many setup with latest Tech, then stuff a turntable in there to ruin it all with cracks and pops. Emotiva and Artist Cloner Mekanica were my favorites, all mind blowing.
Yes, Artist Cloner did an amazing job, hard to believe all the work done in such a short time period to get this result! I'll choose a turntable most of the time, you have to listen past the surface noise to appreciate the music. I hear more detail in a record than on most digital, but that's my background. I bought a CDP in the 80s and used it for a couple of years, then disillusioned by the lack of quality sound I ditched it and sold my CDs. I was able to buy a lot of records at that time for a couple bucks a piece, now I have a great collection that I enjoy very very much.
This isnt actually true. In controlled double blind settings people agree to a very (surprisingly)high degree on what is better sound. This not only goes for sound in hifi, but also for things like wine tasting. But it is certainly true in a non-blind setting. So it seem to be that expectations are very important to the subjective experience. And as such it truly is the case that people have different tastes. Just dont expose yourself to a double blind listening test 😉
Hey Magnus, thanks for your comment! I experienced it as true, and actually had the opposite reaction to a sighted test. So for the true part, I didn't like the sound, others liked the sound. I actually really didn't like the sound, and some were saying it was one of the best sounding rooms. Different people like different sounds. As for the sighted judgement, I was actually really looking forward to hearing these speakers, I thought they would be great and I love the way they look. When they started playing, I didn't like the sound. For double blind tests, we put our systems on racks, we interact with them every time we use them, we clean them and show them off. There are almost no 'blind' applications for a lot of the equipment we use, the visual and tactical elements are important as well...that's my opinion at least!
I don't believe it's a matter of taste. Some people are simply not trained to recognize a good sound. You brain needs a lot of exercise to identify the bad stuff in the sound. Those people heard bad sound all their life, therefore they don't know how good sound should be. This is why when they hear loud music, they automatically think it equates with good sound.
Hello Andru, I really get where you are coming from, I understand your perspective. But here's the thing-if someone hears bad sound and likes it, then they are hearing what they like. I cannot tell someone that they don't like what they like, but yes we can expose them to better and hope they appreciate it. If you show me a 'better' watch, I will not likely choose it over my Casio F91W, because my Casio does what I need it to do!
I disagree. There are basic qualities to good sound that are and should be considered minimal to be considered High Fidelity. You cracked the code when you mentioned that you do not have sponsors.
Check out the science around the Nuraphone, which runs frequency sweeps using earbuds in your ears then analyses and plots the result, and loads this into a custom EQ, for you, into the headphone/earbud called the Nuraphone (in fact, a separate EQ profile for each ear). This is measuring YOU, your particular ears - left and right ears uniquely as they are. Each of us is organic and mechanically and electrically unique (mechanical ear drum, chemical/electrical nerves in the cochlea, converting pressure waves into electrical signals the brain "hears"). Decades ago I played with VLC's EQ (plugin?), setting it by reducing all bands to minimum, playing a favourite song, then raising each band in isolation to the point that is "best" for me. Write the number down, reset that band to minimum, then do the next band. This creates for me an interesting curve which I save as a preset. I need to slightly drop the lowest bands, raise the lows, drop the mids, boost the mid highs, to neutral on the high highs. That's what sounds good to me, but your ears are different to mine of course. Prior to the Nuraphone kickstarter (and even today) I have had a bucket list of "High end audiophile stereo system, with a super low noise many-band EQ after the pre-amp", with the intention of doing that "VLC per band EQ" setting. When the Nuraphone Kickstarter landed, I knew immediately that these plucky Aussies had nailed the EQ profile, but rather than "per system" it is "per-ear" AND automated scientifically with frequency sweep feedback analysis! Stunning! To my ears there is nothing quite like the Nuraphones (but I don't have a refined or high end stereo system to compare either) - but they do deliver fantastic sound to my ears. I consider them the reference. There is no reason that Nuraphone the company could not create a bluetooth shareable EQ profile for you (from their app) which you would take on your mobile phone to hi-fi listening rooms, and shoot into the system with bluetooth! This really should be done! I went searching just now and discovered that @denonuk bought Nuraphone.
Hey Zena, thanks for your comment, and for educating me on Nuraphones! I'm going to look into this. I think that we are ripe for technologies such as this to revolutionize our hobby. At the same time, I am wary of EQ, especially ones that adjust for each person;s hearing. Unless you are eq'd all day every day, the regular sound that you hear will be without the EQ and only your system will have this correction. Any live music that you hear will not have this correction and so eq'd music playback will not sound the same. I guess I have to experience it before I make a real judgement.
One part of the equation is that most people are not educated/experienced in listening and what should and should not be there in the sound. Example, AC line noise, simply -nobody- knows what that sounds like because it is above the hearing range, so there is no noise, right? Ah no, the only way to know what AC noise sounds like is to take it away and then the influence of AC line noise is understood and that person will forever be able to identify it. I've spent the last 5 years sorting out a speaker build and the system built up around it and the room acoustics, during this process my being (one does not listen to/interpret what they are hearing with just the ears, it's a whole body thing) has learned many many things, the sound of resonances in the room, in the speakers, from room features and furniture... There are many ways evil noise can influence sound. The other aspect of it is that quite often negative issues with the rig result in really fun and great moments of sound, so it gets confusing because a rig with loads of issues can actually, in certain moments, sound great. Until you build your own speakers from your own design (gives you a lot of mistakes to discover and figure out and design a fix for) and learn acoustics and undertake the treatment of a few rooms you just have no idea for all the issues you don't know, can't identify etc. Cheers.
Thanks Bayard, sounds like a cool project you have going there! Yes, more experience does lead you to appreciate different sound. Living with open baffle speakers and widerange planars has left me with the ability to hear box resonances easily, I can even identify the sound of magnepan membranes, the coloration gets lower in frequency the larger the magnepan. Enjoy the process, I'm sure you will have something really special when you are done.
More than just taste-though that's a factor-most audiophiles are old (older than you, I think) and they probably have significant hearing loss in the higher registers.
Yes, that could be a factor, brighter systems may appeal to those who are less sensitive to the high end. I think we are all looking for different things and have different priorities as well.
Shows aren't the best places to audition equipment for one thing. Second, and more importantly, there is a huge misconception amongst the so called audiophile community. They're so focused on the tangible , the measurements, the "soundstage" the "imaging " the transparency , the speed and a million others terms they use to define what is the best system that they forget the most fundamental reason for any system to exist. To play music that the listener enjoys. When you go to a live concert whatever your taste in music may be, you're not talking about tight bass, transient imaging, deep soundstaging, crystal highs or sweet mids. You're only there to enjoy the music. And this has somehow gotten lost. So my suggestion is , forget the jargon, forget the measurements , forget the numbers , forget the sets or pure class A or switching bias or hybrid systems , forget all the brands and the equipment, and just listen to the music. In the end , that's all that matters.
Yes, good points you have. I remember a long time ago closing my eyes at a live performance, and listened for imaging. There was none! A lot of live music doesn't have the specific qualities that some people value. I love the gear as well, so playing with well built and engineered equipment is also fun, but yeah the music has to be there.
"different people like different sound" no they DONT. make these claims in the pro audio world, where for example all proper studio speakers are flat and smooth off-axis etc. as usual audiophiles refuce to read anything. the evidence is clear that a speaker must work a certain way, taste do not matter. but if a listener has no reference at all he will think a terrible speaker is good, well atleast for some time. for example if a speaker has 3-4-5db more in a certain range he will think its "detailed and dynamic", but its not. its doing something that shouldnt be there in the first place..
Hey Einar, thanks for your comment. Did you watch the video? My experience showed me that people like the sound of systems that I didn't like. I like stuff that others don't like. We all have our own preferences. I see you bring up pro audio, where equipment is a tool. Not the same thing. Sometimes people, when listening to music, like the tilted up high end or low order harmonic distortion. There are definite preferences, otherwise you would see the same setup in everyone's room!
@@davelistenstohifi how a speaker should function for everybody was determined decades ago, its not like a guy just decided.. buy Floyd Toole`s book on sound reproduction for the details. Harman also did a 2 year long blindtest study with 200 people, virtually everybody prefered the same thing. and its not like a monitor is different from home, all music you play at home is mixed in a controlled matter to make sure the results are similar at home. if you have wild spl differences and other defects your not going to hear the album right. a typical examples of this are speakers that only work with certain recordings and not with others, because they are lacking a lot or excessive in areas.
Hard to complain about Audio when this video quality in 2024 looks worse than any reviewer on RUclips. And what’s with the alternate angle, where you don’t even square up to the camera?? You looked strained man!! And sorry, there is a better sounding source proven by “absolute” science. Digital Playback has more dynamic range, higher output and other “measurements” that are sonically noticeable with a decent set of ears. As far as particular gear, and ‘specs’…matching, placement and other factors come into play as well which you didn’t mention. You won’t find one musician who will tell you they want to record on “tape”, for one reason…it doesn’t sound better than digital recordings. As far A-AB, Tubes and Digital amplifiers that’s where preference really starts to play a role and I agree… it’s less subjective to any absolutes. But when it comes to wasting money and time in vinyl in 2024…. No way!!! Now get another camera or a new phone and shoot in HD.
Hey Thanks Csnumber1 for watching and commenting! Yes, using an older DSLR, I've just spent my camera budget on a new Krell power amp that will help me to hear deeper into the sound and hopefully give even better thoughts in my reviews. If you have an old camera to send me, I'd appreciate it! The alternate angle was to punctuate the difference in tone in my dialogue, one was the setup and the other was my resolution. Sorry you didn't appreciate everything about it. And your comment on Digital playback actually strengthens my comments-there are many people who prefer analogue sources because of the sound quality that is not measured with the traditional metrics. But you have your opinion and I have mine- we're both right ;-)
And there is the vinegar drinker who cares more about form than content. Always the same attacks on superficialities instead of making a good argument ... Because they have no congruent argument. It is just those people who stay in the room because the others say it's awesome. And walk by the other room with a glance inside and judge the sound from outside. I've been on enough shows to study human behaviour. At least Dave has something valid to say.
I found the same thing on extremely revealing systems with very analytical, revealing speakers. My son and I visited a very well-known name, amplifier sales and distributor on their location with an extremely high-end speakers, driven by the best of everything in a set up room. When selecting properly recorded instruments and vocals, it was extremely outstanding to the point where my oldest son can rent this room to live in 🤣. We too played AC/DC, some old Led Zeppelin, and some rock and pop that was basically meant for playing on radios and high volumes, but was not recorded well. Recordings systems sound atrocious you don’t even wanna listen to them. The majority I could not bear to listen to on the system they were that bad I could get no beat. There was no enjoyment.. Simply do not listen to bad recordings on excellent high-end, revealing systems because you will be very disappointed .
Hey Coldfinger, thanks for the comment. I have found that sometimes good systems will reveal a 'bad' recording but it doesn't bother me too much, I find it easy to conflate the recording quality with the music, it's all part of the same piece of art. Good systems allow me to see the whole thing clearer. Really detailed and unforgiving systems though seem to work best only with Amanda McBroom and Jazz at the pawnshop.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Yup, there is no best, all a question of taste. I have been preaching that for years.
Yes Thomas you have! A question of taste, a different way of putting it but equally true.
It's hard not to get caught up in the hype and one-upsmanship, but really if it appeals to you, then you don't have to answer to anyone (except maybe for your better half!)
@@davelistenstohifi and your wallet.
Not the whole truth. It’s not completely subjective, far from it.
@@Coneman3 Unfortunately, some people misunderstand what objective/subjective mean. A short and close, but not entirely accurate way, to reword "subjective" is to say it's a matter of taste or personal preference. Truth is, there are thousands of books and essays by philosophers trying to pin down the meaning of the word and the truth is reading at least a few of them will help you encompass an understanding. In lieu of all this reading, at least for those speaking English, please let me assure you: the word subjective absolutely does describe it.
@@justadad2304 thanks dictionary corner. And to prove it’s not all subjective, no one would like a system with 50% distortion.
Couldn’t agree anymore if I tried. It’s all a matter of taste; are you wanting ultra transparent detail, emotional connection, get out of your seat danceability, shock and awe? There’s something for everyone. Find your sound, set your sail, make your stand and simply acknowledge that everyone’s ears, taste and budget are different. Keep being you!
Hey Mr.Mighty, thanks for your support! If you like something, then that's it, it's good! I like to be surprised, and I appreciate finding out that others liked the sound of that room when I didn't. I wanted to like it, but knowing others liked it was relief for me.
@@davelistenstohifi I had a listening session (at a dealer last summer) to a pair of KEF Blades (the older ones) and some higher end Naim kit, my music choice punished it hard and I was really disappointed. I did listen to some of my dealers music choices and they were amazing, but just shows that it’s about your taste and not the taste of others that matters. Keep up the great work, don’t be afraid to call out what doesn’t work for you and why! Life’s rich tapestry, eh? 😎
I managed a camera store for almost 3 decades and there are parallels to your story. I had a new customer come in to buy a camera and his friend, who was a pro photographer, had given him a list of what to buy. Looking at the list I was a little unsure if this was the best choice. It was a list of good gear though, maybe not what I would recommend. I sell him everything on the list and off he went. Two days later he’s back saying he didn’t know what his photographer friend was thinking, this was very different than what he was looking for, too big and heavy, not as many options for lenses. Anyway, I checked out everything, condition, any missing pieces, etc and everything was good. I then started asking him a few questions to get an idea of what would best fit his needs, now and for the future. He bought a camera and a couple of lenses with some money left over. He came back a few weeks later and told me how happy he was with his purchase. ( Which always made my day). Moral of the story is, people are different. Their preferences are different and what may be perfect for one person may not fit the needs, or tastes of another.
Hey Greatpix, thanks for the story. Yes, you are like the wise audio dealer who can parse out someone's requirements and likes and get them what works for them. This is a valuable thing! In your story I guess that the pro photographer friend is like audio reviewers ;-)
@@davelistenstohifi Definitely.
Totally agree, the best you can do as a reviewer, is to state your taste, that way people will have a reference point. Keep up the reviews but most of all keep it real.
Thanks Julieheard! I'm enjoying sharing my experiences, so it's all real. Thanks for watching!
One thing no one can dispute, the BEST instant noodle at the show was in the Galion room.
I am so sad that I missed the noodles! I'll have to track some down to give my impressions :-)
LOL!! :)))
I completely agree! The latter comment about diversity of opinion is so important. We must support each other following our path to our own individual "perfect sound". Glad you are here to give your path a voice.
Thanks for your support Matt!
In large part I think our schooling system is to blame. We're not taught HOW to think anymore but WHAT to think. Add a hefty dose of peer pressure and you've got yourself a bunch of docile sheeple.
Then there's that one sheep in the flock saying: "I'm telling you, the man and the dog are working together!"
Then the other sheep saying" Oh Rupert, always you and your conspiracy theories"
Just found this channel. Love it! Purely a subjective hobby. All down to personal preference and taste. No right or wrong. Every room is different and how the system or component synergizes with each other with a given speaker and interacts within that given room. At the end of the day, if your system triggers an emotional response or an upgrade that does this, enjoy it, its already doing its thing for you.
Yes, and I encourage people to try different components and setups. The more you hear the better your ability to judge and know what you like. As you said, no right or wrong, emotional engagement is key!
Just found your channel. I’m a new subscriber as well! I enjoyed your perspective and completely agree. I appreciate your being gobsmacked by commentary about the room you thought was terrible. I was at Axpona last year (large show outside of Chicago) and I was in a very expensive speaker room. I could not believe how harsh they were to my ears. They are priced over $30K US. I have 40 year old ADS speakers I love a whole lot more.
Hey Steve, yes correct sometimes I wonder where the progress is...my main speakers are 30 years old and pretty hard to beat still! I guess the emperor still has no clothes.
A japanese amp designer once said that measurements are like an x-ray in that they don't show you the person's personality
Yes, this is a great way of putting it!
Gm ☕️💊
Great point ..perception is actually reality in this hobby.
In my system , in my room , headphones vs speakers vs streaming vs vinyl vs cd vs reel to reel vs tubes , vs solid state vs hybrid, vs class A vs class B …there’s so many combinations YOU can make the system appeal to YOU .
If there’s one thing I know ..is that I don’t know what you’re hearing.
Ever wonder why Hearing Life isn’t invited to have a room to provide hearing tests.
Between my age ( over 60) with decades of clubbing, concerts, going to the range along with tinnitus..it’s a miracle that I can enjoy this hobby at all.
Great video.
Hey Carmine, I think you have summed up my entire 7 minute video in 4 words! "Perception is actually reality". Genius. I recently visited an audiophile who wore hearing aids, I don't think in the end that it diminished his enjoyment of the music.
The market / marketing of an AUDIOPHILE HEARING AID ( call it an enhancer) given the demographics of this hobby..may be a golden opportunity to be exploited.
I’m now in my senior years ( a touch of tinnitus and hearing above 12 K is a myth) I’ve gone from room filling set ups of my youth..now it’s a nice headphone set up ( Bryston, Denafrips and Audeze ) along with a nice 🥃…and tho it’s not for everyone..it’s good for me .
Also ,looking forward to the Toronto Audiofest 🫡
Couldn’t agree more! I’ve been an “audio enthusiast“ for more years than I care to share. What IS clearest is that the perception of any system or piece of gear is more so between one’s ears.
Yes, bang on Lupe! What's between my ears is not the same as yours (thank goodness!) and we are both correct in what we like.
Hi just stumbled across your channel and appreciate your effort/insights into the audiophile world opinions. Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks for watching Nick, I appreciate it!
Just like people enjoy different types of music, they will have personal preference as to what type of sound they like. I was never a measurement first person. Measurements can be a small guide before buying, and measurements can help you when you are having problems in your room, that’s it.
Building a relationship with a dealer, who will allow home trials is paramount. Your ears, your room and your personal preferences are your best guide and can’t be measured. We should all just respect each other ability to agree to disagree and enjoy the music.
Hello SidV, exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself. I have nothing to add!
Good video and subject, I subscribed. This certainly is an interesting hobby to say the least. I am now of the mindset, that it takes years to figure out what really sounds good to your ear in regards to finding the gear that produces that pleasing sound, that is the trick. I have had gear through here that folks rave about, and I could not stand it. I found a HiFi buddy to assist me in this journey, he really changed the way I look at this hobby. His house looks like a high end HiFi shop, and he knows many big names in the industry. I met him through US AudioMart of all places, when I went to his house to pick up a pair of Zu DW Omen speakers I purchased from him. I spent hours in his house listening to gear, and now we are good friends. He has really helped me out when purchasing or considering a purchase in regards to audio gear, along with regular BS'ing on the phone, just a great stand up guy. My point, find someone you trust that has been in the hobby for awhile, with the same taste, and hopefully hearing, to help guide you along the way.
Yeah, and if that friend has a house full of gear then it's even more helpful!
Futile comment, but here we go. Music has been very important to me for the last 40+ years. I always thought one needs good enough equiptment, to separate the instruments, to really hear the music. For this you need any amplifier, good source and decent speakers. 500 will get you there, 1000 most certainly will. You may invest more, if you have the money, and you will get nicer sound. But the enjoyment of the music is the same. My strongest musical experiences were when I was 16, with my very lousy stereo system.
Its nice to have good rig, but its not necessary.
Hey Redpill, thanks for taking the time to comment! Yes, I remember listening to my DIY radioshack speakers played on my Sony integrated, I did have a thorens with a grado cart back then anyway, but DSOTM has never moved me as much as when I listened to that in my room when I was 16.
So true, my most favorite piece of gear is still my 1970 Sansui 4000 receiver. It just has "That Sound", something this modern gear cannot replicate. I'm 59.
Wonderful, hang on to that Sansui. Maybe even get it checked out, verify the DC offset and power supply, make sure it's working 100% and get another 50 years enjoyment out of it!
@@davelistenstohifi Yep, I have all of the bits, going to recap it myself. Just need to find the time...
3:15 did anybody measured the room? Just to see what people (doesn't) like?
The room was set up rather extensively by one of the distributors of the speakers, it was as good as they felt it should be. Didn't hit my fancy but others liked it
The truthfulness of "different people like different sound" only goes so far when unamplified acoustic music is involved. If you have experience listening to live classical music or jazz in smaller venues you are unlikely to somehow end up liking a reproduced sound that is way off your perception of live sound.
Yes, true Gaboro, the more experienced a listener you are, likely the more your preferences will converge with others who have the same experience. There are many people who do not have the same exposure to live music, but are they wrong in their opinions and preferences?
i have to disagree, most live concerts are with PA system that won't sound good. Plus live instruments could be shrill sounding
@@davelistenstohifi With music where the original is only what the engineer created it is all very subjective and there's no right or wrong.
@@MasterofPlay7 My comment specifically addressed live music with no PA. If the instrument itself, unamplified, sounds shrill then that is how it must be reproduced and nobody should complain.
People have tons of preferences of what venue they prefer to hear unamplified acoustic music.
After 30+ years within HiFi I found out that "what it works for me" is a) SE tube amps (pre + power), and b) high efficiency speakers (best as OB).
I enjoy variations in this what I like (e.g. I recently visited OJAS in SoHo/NY), but I do not spend time convincing other that what I like is the best.
Regards from Copenhagen
That's awesome Goran, once you find a setup that resonates with you, enjoy and feel confident that you have made the right choice for yourself! There is something seductive about low power and high efficiency for sure.
Hi I totally understand your point, whats good for one person can be a total disaster for others thats HiFi sound in general, subjectivity at its best. However, I disagree with you about measurements though, measurements done correctly is a valuable guid in determining how, for example, a speaker performs in room and partnering power amplifiers behave with speakers especially speakers with difficult, challenging or/and awkward loads. Accurate measurements, when done correctly give you an indication on how equipment behaves and can also tel you other things like amplifiers sound characteristics like 2nd/3rd harmonic distortion profiles which in general can make an amplifier sound warm or harsh (tube amps). Other measurements to consider (I haven't seen this done that much) speaker cabinet resonance measurements, I'll admit, I do like vintage speakers wit high cabinet resonance which make them sound nice and warm. The question worth asking is companies make products with vanishingly low distortion, would we like the accurate and sterile sound they produce. I too have attended HiFi shows and walked into top tier company rooms and yes I agree, I wouldn't own some of them.
Well, regarding measurements, I was really saying that it is not easy and sometimes not possible at all to look at the measurements of a component and decide if you will like the sound or not. So many times the mesurements do not cover all of the audible characteristics of a component.
You watch or read a dozen reviews on a hi-fi component or pair of speakers, likely you’ll get a dozen conflicting opinions. Even if all 12 reviewers are united in their opinion, it doesn’t mean that, that component is good for every application. I’ve found maybe 2 or 3 RUclips reviewers who’ve reviewed equipment I own, or have owned, who have reached the same conclusion as me about this equipment, so I tend to trust/value their opinion. I still listen to opposing opinions, but know who to turn to first.
Of all the folks I have found that has been solid in regards to my taste, is Steve Guttenberg. I own a few pieces that he has reviewed and he has really knocked it out of the park.
@@michaelwright1602 persomally, I find the comments made by and opinions stated by Zero Fidelity and A British Audiophile most relevant to my way of thinking!
That's really valuable to be able to trust someone from experience. Good to know you have gotten there.
You also can't go with a hotel room set up without a dedicated space that had the time for room treatment and a proper speaker set up with cleaner power.
Hey Penn, yes the problem in this room was that I spoke to the presenter and they had an expert in these speakers spend the day before setting up and optimizing them! They sounded as good as they could, he seemed pretty pleased with the presentation.
Dave, I couldn’t agree with you more. Les gouts et Les couleurs like the French say. I am always taken aback by people who base their purchases on charts, oh look there’s no bump or roll off here so it must be good, that’s crazy to me. Most people who love the tube sound love it despite the measurement issues that might come with it. There is no replacement to listening to a product in your system. The best you can do as a RUclipsr is to create your lane and give a flavor of the sound signature of the products you review to people who share a similar sound signature as you. Definitely worth a follow.
Thanks man, I appreciate the subscription. Yeah, I realize that I cannot be everything to everyone, my value has to be my own voice and I hope people want to listen. Plus, it gives me an excuse to keep trying different stuff in my own room!
This one’s going to be long so prepare or skip I don’t care but when I started my journey, I went to a Best Buy Magnolia. I listened to Kev, R 11 or seven the three bookshelves the Bowers and Wilkins 600 something towers at the time and the Bowers and Wilkins 700 something at the time all of this was played off of a Marantz, I think 8012 the only speaker I could actually hear a difference on the Bowers and Wilkins 600 something and at the levels they were playing. It sounded like the voice was straining to the note. Having said that I could not tell a difference between any of the other speakers and the way they sounded, I say this because I am completely blind. I do not have a placebo effect on the way any of the cure looks if anybody should be able to hear a difference on them it’s going to be me because I rely on my hearing on a daily basis in Waze, normal people do notknow that’s not to say that if I put every single one of these pieces in my own room, I may not hear a difference because they may react to my room differently. This is just my experience so far, but I guess it points out just how different we all are.
Hi Jacob, that's an amazing story, true blind listening tests! That's pretty powerful to read that you didn't notice a difference in the other speakers, maybe there is a lot more sighted bias going on than we like to admit. Thanks for your comment!
There is no absolute truth, there is taste and opinion. This shouldn‘t come as a surprise. Good reviewers tell us about the sound and what the device is doing to it: warm, detailed, precise, wide, deep, strong on vocals etc.. You need to know what sound you like / what sound you are looking for and then find the recommendations to your preferences. It‘s that simple. It’s not „shocking“ or whatever.
Well, what shocked me was how different other people seemed to react to something that i really didn't like. The difference in opinion was startling. But, as a fan of black licorice, I know that my opinions are not always the majority.
Well said and great video Dave! I understand people obsessing over how well something measures. These are folks who are after the best and that's not necessarily wrong. Measurements can tell you how good something is without relying on your own subjective opinions. This can be good when starting out in Hifi but also has the potential to be very misleading.
Perhaps the math side of my brain is a bit off. I get goosebumps listening to music but feel nothing looking at measurements.🍻
Thanks Chibs! Yes, it's easy and seems to make sense that an amp with 0.1% distortion will sound better than one with 0.0001% distortion, and if you haven't spent the time listening intently to nicely set up equipment it will be hard to understand the immeasurable differences. I would like it if the take away will be for people to trust their ears and choose what they like. Emotional involvement rules!
Wow, totally blown away by your post. Agree, Agree...... not an AC/DC fan and probably would have left the room. I have never suggested a best, in my 50 years in this hobby, I have always been surprised by the almost soul-ripping sounds people consider as "Great Sound". I have never believed in specs, I have only believed my ears. I'm no saying my gear is great, but I love the way it presents music. System: Aesthetix Mimas, PMC 25/23, Ariston RD 11 w. stax carbon arm, various cartridges.
Hey Gord, your system is made up with some pretty nice equipment, I'm sure it sounds great! I don't own any AC/DC but it would be fun to hear on a great system, as long as you don't find it grating!
Hi Dave just watched your impressions & how you felt about this particular room & i am with you on this one, I have personally been chasing for the ultimate sound but i cant seem to find it from the reviews audiophiles have been giving & i feel that we all have different perceptions & listening experiences on what we think is a good sound. I am going to stop wasting my money because i feel that different equipment will sound different in different environments & that this is the truth. I felt like i was missing out on a great sounding system but i feel it does not exist.
Hey Ricardo, thanks for your comment. Yes, good to live with your system for a while, put aside a bit of money in the meantime and when you identify something that you feel is lacking in your room, do some research and pull the trigger on something that you know is going to get you closer to the music.
Bravo Ricardo, much joy comes with that realization. Live with your equipment for a long while, put some money aside and then when you recognize some shortcomings, do your research and buy with confidence!
Good discussion. I've found reviewers who have similar taste to me. I spent the money to buy what they recommended and in some cases I didn't like the gear. A couple of them I did have the same positive experience they described and I continue to take their advice
Yes, so much of this is subjective and personal, and there's room for many tastes. Find someone whose tastes mirror your own and use that as your guide, that makes for helpful content!
I agree, It is definitely a matter of taste, but I do find it a bit hard to listen to reviews sometimes cause I listen to mostly metal, and the sound in such music varies in quality a lot, but good speakers and systems should bring out the best in all music styles, for me at least. I have tried many speakers and systems and noticed that while listening to them I can be amazed at how great the sound is at first, but then suddenly when I change artists/bands it can drastically go from great to terrible. Either it gets bright and harsh or gives off a boomy bass amongst other things.
All in all, I have noticed that most audio files do not listen to my type of music, so it makes me extra cautious. The ACDC bit was a good example, but they do have albums with great sound.
I do not consider myself a typical audiophile, I just came across this problem when I started having more money, and wanted to treat my music hobby to a better system, and went for something that people described as rock speakers. This could not be more wrong, and at that time I did not understand what was happening and tried to EQ the sh*t out of the stereo. After discovering why and what was happening I had du study many reviews closely and try to listen to what I could at the local stores carefully before buying anything. I had more money, but not enough to keep re-selling all the time. the goal was just to upgrade once.
I am still baffled at this today, cause I don't understand why manufacturers have to enforce a stereo or speaker that has a built-in EQ that one can't change. It usually works like if something is missing in the sound you can't get it back, but you can reduce more with an optional EQ.
Why is this? Why can't it be that we buy a product that is true to the recording and EQ our-self from there?
I do get the thing about more dynamics, less distortion and open sound which I do accept and welcome, but the EQ part is still a mystery for me. I can understand though if you do not listen to the same music as me you might not even ever know or encounter this problem.
Hey Rockit, thanks for your reply! Let me know which metal bands I should look up, I'm curious to know what you are experiencing. Love to get some and try it myself at home. I find that my good system plays recordings well, they come out detailed so I can hear everything that is there. If the recording lacks something I don't want to add it back, I'd like to hear it as it was produced. The mixer is as much a part of the recorded music as the musicians so I want to hear it all accurately.
For EQ, tone controls are largely missing these days, but speaker placement and setup can do a lot to affect the sound. Thanks for watching!
@@davelistenstohifi Placement doesn't really change the sound, it just gets things in phase. So when you get it right you should hear the singer in the middle, and the bass + treble should be more distinct. As for metal, It usually gets worse when it is fast metal with double kick drums. to listen to that one should have accurate bass, and I do, but if it is a product like let's say marantz which is considered warm, it comes off as having the bass turned too high and gives a boomy muffled sound.
I would suggest Dimmu Borgir as a good test subject for speed as they have good production, at least on the album "Death Cult Armageddon", But if you are not familiar with the music you might not know what it is supposed to sound like, and I spent most my years growing up listening to headphones that might not have had the best quality, but they did not have bass and treble issues as I recall.
To put it into perspective I can suggest that what I am using now of stereo does give an accurate soundstage to my memory, and it is Rotel amps + monitor audio speakers. they do give a lot better sound and detail than what I had in the younger days, yes, but they do not add or take away anything else. Just more clarity and open wider soundstage without affecting/changing the bass/treble region.
I also have some speakers from GR Research that do a very good job. Even the new Pioneer vsx lx elite series gives a pretty pure sound, so one does not need to go super high-end to get great true sound, but you won't get the audiophile quality though. But I do admit that the pioneer I use with my TV now is impressive, and does not sound far off from a Rotel in fact.
I have not heard all types of Stereo equipment, but things that will never be accepted in this house again are Klipsch speakers and Marantz amps. they sound amazing on some music, but just destroy my guitar-oriented metal. Klipsch made Deep Purple with the song Burn sound lifeless and took away all my feelings while listening. It just sounded like a dull 70's song with no life.
You are a genuine sir, and that's admirable! I agree with you. It could also be that you simply hear different. The importratnt thing is you are being truthful about what if feels like when the music enters your soul. I do like a tilted up sound, but of course the trade off is it is likely to become fatiguing... Some of the best gear I ever heard, I sold because...you guessed it, it was fatiguing. Cheers friend!
Hello JanPatrick, thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am telling it like I hear it, I cannot do anything else! Yeah, you like bright but it fatigues...I get it. I recently picked up a really nice Krell KSA50 power amp, it sounds amazing, 50 watts pure class A. It is not bright, but sounds...illuminated. The high end is really detailed but not forward, maybe there is something out there for you after all ;-)
@@davelistenstohifi Right on Dave. I'll research that. Thanks. All the best!
Local audio club discussion
Is how well the sonics image
Speaker placement is critical 😊
Open mind helps how others listen 🎶
Hey Carl, thanks for watching! Yes, speaker placement is very critical, and also free! Always experiment with the placement of the speakers, and of your listening position as well. An open mind is always appreciated as well ;-)
Interesting thoughts. I would not give up on measurements. While there may not be a strong correlation between a given individual's preferences and measurements, good objective performance expands the potential audience. A system tuned only by ear will sound good with some music and bad with others, regardless of recording quality and depending on the ear of the tuner. A system tuned with the aid of measurements will sound good to more people with any well-recorded music. For example, if I attempt to integrate a subwoofer by ear, some music will sound right while other music will be too lean or boomy. Some listeners may prefer more or less bass. If I get things close by ear and then use a UMIK-2 to help me with phase alignment and levels, most music will sound right to most listeners.
Measurements don't guarantee engaging listening experiences. But they are useful tools that, if employed with skill, improve our chances! Certainly, measurements would have caught the harshness issue you experienced and helped the exhibitor to address the problem.
Hey DSnyder, thanks for the thoughtful comments! Yes you bring up good points, integrating subs and making sure that components meet certain requirements are good places to measure. My point is that looking at measurements and using that to select a component is rarely the path to musical bliss. I'll take your second paragraph-yes measurements would have certainly caught the issue with the harshness, but here's the thing: Many other people liked what they heard. If we 'fixed' the harshness, it would be less appealing to many people. I was told that even the expert from the US distributor of these speakers was in the room for a day setting up the speakers and this is what they ended up with, they were happy with the performance. Not for me, but apparently for many others!
@@davelistenstohifi - I also wonder if many folks (especially at audio shows) listen with their eyes more than their ears. Like how kids only want to eat food that's colorful. If there had been an acoustically transparent scrim in front of the system in that room you described, would those same people still have liked the sound? Would they have liked it much more if the harshness had been identified and addressed? From my study and experience, I'm pretty confident the answers are "no" and "yes", respectively. 😀
I've subscribed to your channel and am looking forward to hearing more of your observations about this hobby. Cheers.
What is the Bosch association?
I've worked with their ebike division before, quality stuff!
Good and honest, but... some things aren't subjective, and residual energy in iron core inductors in loudspeakers is one of them. They do objectively distort the signal from the amp, so they are objectively worse than the same loudspeaker model with better components.
And yet, I bet that if you play both versions of that speaker to 100 people, there will be a significant portion that will prefer the one with 'inferior' coils. Good luck telling them that they are wrong! Yes, one may be closer to an ideal transducer, but because we are talking about music and emotion, not everyone will like the 'better' presentation. That's the point.
@@davelistenstohifi Yes, but you don't make you're reviews for those people. When I buy a kitchen appliance I want to know which one of the alternatives the buyers of them like, even if they have tested only one of them.
Hi Dave, I listen to Hifi too. I think you're correct in your thoughts here. I'm new to your channel. Great job.
Thanks Stereo, I appreciate your comment. Thanks for watching!
Well yes and no.
There has been quite a bit of research on what people prefer in general and it is a more linear response.
Does that mean everyone will like that ? No
But there is a preference that most people like.
Also a well engineered speaker which is linear is good to have since it will perform well in most rooms. Or will perform evenly over a bunch of rooms and will be easier to set up.
So there are some very useful metrics.
So things aren’t that much all over the place. But sure, to each their own on what they like.
Yes, certainly there is a general trend to what most people appreciate as 'Nice' but I do see some polarizing high end equipment that is either liked or not liked.
Totally agreed. We are just cataloging our experiences. Nothing more. Those who think they get to know whats good or bad from reviewers, are the ones stuck in the neverending cycle of hifi. Cause its all a lie.
Everything sounds good.
Everything sounds bad.
It’s all about taste and execution.
Great video Dave.
Thanks Cave Man! I really appreciate your support. I love "Everything sounds good-Everything sounds bad" this is so true.
@@davelistenstohifi i can make anything sound good, and I can make anything sound bad. :-)
Execution and matching matters. Plug n play doesnt always work.
There is indeed a technical and scientific understanding what is good sounding and what not. Frequency response, low distortions, symmetric filtering on the crossover points, which filter are in use, etc... room acoustics etc... this can be measured it can be categorized, yes there is indeed a common understanding what is good and what not from the mentioned view of science and technology. But and this is huge, we as people react different, have different experiences, prefere or dislike things. The reasons are endless, and especially with music we are kind of helpless to see it completely ibjective because our brain is not able to filter that information, it tells us straight if this is something you love or dislike. I think it was a evolutionary mechanism to preserve us from dangerous predators or situations. And seeing this with today's life that surrounds it makes the relationship with sound reproducing technology very special. It became and we feel it like that , a very subjective experience.
Yes, that's the part that tripped me up, I thought that if there were shortcomings that were obvious to me, then others would also hear. The fact that my opinion was so off threw me for a loop. That's why there are just so many different brands, technologies, designs, to appeal to different people. I love the variety that this brought us, we live in some golden years for equpiment diversity!
Love the title😂 congrats on 800 subs dave!
Thanks Fifi, couldn't have done it without you!
They said it sounded good maybe they have Sansui speakers you know what I mean thanks the video have a great day I'm old but I can hear very excellent
Yes, possibly people are inexperienced listeners, but they still have their likes and dislikes, and they are just as correct in liking what they like as much as I do. Re: getting old-your hearing can diminish, but your ability to listen gets better with experience!
Hello Dave ... Here's the thing:
What we want to listen to is the recording. I don't want to listen to my system. It really is all about the music.
For the electronics, measurements do matter. To give you the most realistic reproduction of the source you want amplifiers, DACs, Streamers, etc. to be 100% linear and transparent. You do not want them adding their character to the mix. To ensure this we measure them in isolation, checking distortion, frequency response, output levels etc. to be sure the electronics is up to snuff. This much can be quantified because the electronics is not largely affected by it's environment.
For Speakers, phono cartridges, etc, these devices react to their environment and it is far more difficult to measure them in isolation. So we use the testing to eliminate the "stinkers" and rely more on subjective listening. Which is fine.
For our in-home setups some measuring is very helpful. For example taking frequency response scans of a system in use can give us very good clues about the best speaker placements, room treatments, etc.
Of course, as you point out the final judgement is to simply sit down and listen to your music and see how much you enjoy it. That, we cannot measure.
But I will also advise two simple "technician's rules"...
1) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) If it is broke know when to stop fixing it.
There is a time to simply sit back and let the music happen.
Thanks Douglas, those are wise words. Like I mentioned before, there are some measurements that can be made that are helpful, but selecting components based on what the spec sheet shows will never get you the music you are looking for, other than by chance. The technicians rules are difficult ones to teach, these almost have to be learned by experience unfortunately!
@@davelistenstohifi
I can actually look at an amplifier's spec sheets (if honest) or measurements and pretty much tell you what it will sound like. There is a correlation that, if understood, will tell you what to expect. But the thing is that you don't want to hear your amplifier or DAC, etc. ... again they need to be audibly transparent for proper reproduction of music.
With respect... that a person doesn't understand the measurements does not mean they are useless.
Thanks Dobbs! What are you spinning this evening?
Awesome! I have been looking at the FR64 lately, they are fetching some high prices, must be some arm!
You don't say! 😂😂 I'm 50 years old now but I built my first system when I was 16 and I realized this way back then. lol
Yeah, well where was your advice all these years!? You should have told me sooner :-)
There is a best, really. It is best when you see a reviewer with your first name and the same Kenwood turntable on shelf. What could be better? I know - A thumbs up and subscribing. Thanks
Thanks Dave, I swear we have a club forming, soon we will have our own brand! Thanks for your support!
I think part of the issue is fear. Very few of us will ever be in a position to have dozens, if not hundreds, of pieces in our rooms to really hear the differences. So you're left to hear stuff at a dealer or a show or just watch/read reviews. And since this hobby can be so expensive, there's this belief that I "have to nail it" when buying something. It has to be the best "bang for the buck" or it has to be "a giant killer." We're afraid that we'll buy something, get it home and hear little to no difference over our old gear. It really becomes too much of a black or white thing, when most gear in our price range is really just a shade of gray.
Yes, good point. Even more perilous since we cannot know if the review reflects what we are looking for. I'm lucky that much of my research on components has led me to improvements, and the ones that did not work out were able to be returned.
Hi Dave. You say you were expecting « real good music ». Utopia. But you have realized that we all have a different perception of that notion. I will read you and determine if I will follow you or not. Good luck.
Maybe I'll clarify-Real good music that I like. I'm looking for the connection to the music, that's what I want from my HiFi. A lot of the music I like does not appeal to others, just ask my kids!
@@davelistenstohifi yup very true
You left out the fact that some are paid to say it sounds good! But yes the sound is very subjective. Some systems sound good at first and then ear fatigue sets in etc..
Yes Patrick, you are right, there are always people on the take who are trying to sway your opinion. Find people you trust and listen to them, the rest are for Entertainment Only!
I agree with your opinion. Great video. Thx.
Hey Old Guy, thanks for watching!
Probably a tag-team setup!
What, do you think that the rest of the people in the room were going along with the presenter to prank me? A possibility!!
@@davelistenstohifi
Naa ... they'll be going along with the presenter *to get paid* .
@@davelistenstohifi no, just the FB group - “indirect marketing”
@@Douglas_Blake_579 yup, that’s my point.
@@davelistenstohifi it’s an old market stall trick - a couple of “employees” jump in to buy some piece of rubbish, and the rest of the crowd get sucked in.
I know Chris Isaak is a singer, but didn't know he was an audiophile!
How do you get 7 thousand view's and only 1k subscribers? Am i missing something.
Lots of people shag over high end gears, even if they sound edgy and harsh, it's almost like the monetary value deafens them.
Ps. subscribed
Thanks for the Subscription! Getting subs can be a Wicked Game....Yeah, some high end equipment almost bullies you into liking it, with the shiny cabinets and sky high price tags. Makes you doubt your preference, how can it not sound good it costs $50,000!
Someone does not understand how to upload a 16 x 9 video. Why place it within a 4 x 3 frame?
Hey Michael, didn't you hear? 4x3 is the new 16x9. Plus my phone is 22x9 so everything looks weird on it anyway.
@@davelistenstohifi Silly me, I was watching on my home cinema. I better get my telephone out. lol
Yeah...don't put me on a big screen, I'm too shy for that anyway
Well said. Yet I still wonder what it actually was that sounded so bad.
I've been to many shows with great gear. And not so great gear with big names. And its not just the variables of the show venue. Sometimes manufacturers get so stuck on an idea or something that once worked that they just cant let go. Like KEFs uni-q. I walked away from thay even when the room was full. And took my sanctuary in the next small conference room which was all glass... and the small electrostats that played there were like ointment for my aching ears. Unfortunately that brand didn't last long. And KEF still is. Just like Bose, right?
Listening involves attention and training. Many people listen but they don't hear. They look but they don't see. For that you need some knowledge and wisdom.
And that wisdom is also needed when you actually make stuff yourself. Then you learn what works and what doesn't. Measurements are a helpful tool, but useless without understanding physics. When you know physics but don't understand it you're set up for blunders.
Engineering is about making compromises. Weighing one against the other. That's a matter of taste and vision for your goal. Often there is a better compromise or part, but then the marketing and financial department are starting to weigh in. Not to mention HR.
I made my own speakers and modified a LOT of gear to change compromises for better ones, in my opinion. If i change some caps, thats 5x cheaper than when they get installed in the original. And often they are objectively better; ie more suited to the purpose.
Very good points. Yes, measurements are essential when you are building something, they need to be consistent and hit your design goals. But when it comes to choosing something to listen to music with, nothing better than your ears to guide you. In this instance, I think you make a great point, these speakers had some unique technologies, maybe they were stuck in the implementation. But it sounded good to some people so who am I to say?
You can make it a ‘serious quest’ but isn’t it all just…shopping?
Haha yes! I would say shopping, bartering, trading, building, upgrading...hopefully this is the pursuit of better sound and a closer emotional connection to the music, and this goal transcends the mere collection of shiny things...but I may be just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Well, in the same sense so is cooking. I start cooking when I'm in the supermarket. Thinking about what I like, what I need, about taste and diet.
Lets be honest, the days of audio journalists speaking in absolutes pretty much died with Harry Pearson. Amir of AV science might be the last of that breed. Nearly everyone else, from the guys who present measurements like Erin's Audio Corner and Audioholics, to guys just providing listening impressions like Darko Audio and The Audiophiliac all provide caveats and disclaimers that its just their opinions. Being just another dude giving his opinions about audio is awesome, as there aren't many, and will never be enough people publicly providing their opinions about such an underrated hobby to suffice. We all need stop pretending all the old audio battle lines still exist, because they don't. Hell, there just isnt enough Audiophiles left to fight.
Noooo.....must....cause....division...haha thanks for your comment. I think the huge discrepancy between what I thought and others thought is the origin of this video. The title is for getting attention, just so more people can see my video and come together under the guise of 'Unity'. A lot of the shows are old guys like me, but I see young kids buying records and checking out high end audio, so there is some young blood coming in to help grow. Now, we just have to bring the word 'Audiophile' back from the brink so that people don't think it's a term of disparagement!
Also your tastes change over time.
I have some rather nice speakers that are technically great but i no longer find them emotionally engaging so im gonna change them.
I may sacrifice some technical aspects but thats fine.
Go with what you like, everyones ears are different.
Yes, it can be a long long road to try to have it all, find your best compromises and enjoy what you have. Cheers.
Yes, expensive trial & errors 😮
Good to visit an audio show, you get to invest some time and very little money to trial equipment, focus on what has the potential to sound good.
No. In speakers listeners NEED experience.
Hey Dilby, how do listeners NEED experience? Anyone can plunk down cash and buy the speakers they like. No experience needed. Not sure I understand your point.
It is very much a matter of personal taste, but also the ability to hear. unfortunately, that’s not an equitable phenomena,
Yes, sometimes hard to make objective statements about gear when the perception is so personal.
I was confused as at the show, many setup with latest Tech, then stuff a turntable in there to ruin it all with cracks and pops.
Emotiva and Artist Cloner Mekanica were my favorites, all mind blowing.
Yes, Artist Cloner did an amazing job, hard to believe all the work done in such a short time period to get this result! I'll choose a turntable most of the time, you have to listen past the surface noise to appreciate the music. I hear more detail in a record than on most digital, but that's my background. I bought a CDP in the 80s and used it for a couple of years, then disillusioned by the lack of quality sound I ditched it and sold my CDs. I was able to buy a lot of records at that time for a couple bucks a piece, now I have a great collection that I enjoy very very much.
This isnt actually true. In controlled double blind settings people agree to a very (surprisingly)high degree on what is better sound.
This not only goes for sound in hifi, but also for things like wine tasting.
But it is certainly true in a non-blind setting.
So it seem to be that expectations are very important to the subjective experience.
And as such it truly is the case that people have different tastes.
Just dont expose yourself to a double blind listening test 😉
Hey Magnus, thanks for your comment! I experienced it as true, and actually had the opposite reaction to a sighted test. So for the true part, I didn't like the sound, others liked the sound. I actually really didn't like the sound, and some were saying it was one of the best sounding rooms. Different people like different sounds. As for the sighted judgement, I was actually really looking forward to hearing these speakers, I thought they would be great and I love the way they look. When they started playing, I didn't like the sound. For double blind tests, we put our systems on racks, we interact with them every time we use them, we clean them and show them off. There are almost no 'blind' applications for a lot of the equipment we use, the visual and tactical elements are important as well...that's my opinion at least!
I don't believe it's a matter of taste. Some people are simply not trained to recognize a good sound. You brain needs a lot of exercise to identify the bad stuff in the sound. Those people heard bad sound all their life, therefore they don't know how good sound should be. This is why when they hear loud music, they automatically think it equates with good sound.
Hello Andru, I really get where you are coming from, I understand your perspective. But here's the thing-if someone hears bad sound and likes it, then they are hearing what they like. I cannot tell someone that they don't like what they like, but yes we can expose them to better and hope they appreciate it. If you show me a 'better' watch, I will not likely choose it over my Casio F91W, because my Casio does what I need it to do!
I disagree. There are basic qualities to good sound that are and should be considered minimal to be considered High Fidelity. You cracked the code when you mentioned that you do not have sponsors.
Hey David, glad you disagree. I know that there are people who like sound that I didn't, so I'm not sure where that leaves me.
Check out the science around the Nuraphone, which runs frequency sweeps using earbuds in your ears then analyses and plots the result, and loads this into a custom EQ, for you, into the headphone/earbud called the Nuraphone (in fact, a separate EQ profile for each ear). This is measuring YOU, your particular ears - left and right ears uniquely as they are. Each of us is organic and mechanically and electrically unique (mechanical ear drum, chemical/electrical nerves in the cochlea, converting pressure waves into electrical signals the brain "hears").
Decades ago I played with VLC's EQ (plugin?), setting it by reducing all bands to minimum, playing a favourite song, then raising each band in isolation to the point that is "best" for me. Write the number down, reset that band to minimum, then do the next band. This creates for me an interesting curve which I save as a preset. I need to slightly drop the lowest bands, raise the lows, drop the mids, boost the mid highs, to neutral on the high highs. That's what sounds good to me, but your ears are different to mine of course.
Prior to the Nuraphone kickstarter (and even today) I have had a bucket list of "High end audiophile stereo system, with a super low noise many-band EQ after the pre-amp", with the intention of doing that "VLC per band EQ" setting. When the Nuraphone Kickstarter landed, I knew immediately that these plucky Aussies had nailed the EQ profile, but rather than "per system" it is "per-ear" AND automated scientifically with frequency sweep feedback analysis! Stunning!
To my ears there is nothing quite like the Nuraphones (but I don't have a refined or high end stereo system to compare either) - but they do deliver fantastic sound to my ears. I consider them the reference.
There is no reason that Nuraphone the company could not create a bluetooth shareable EQ profile for you (from their app) which you would take on your mobile phone to hi-fi listening rooms, and shoot into the system with bluetooth! This really should be done!
I went searching just now and discovered that @denonuk bought Nuraphone.
Hey Zena, thanks for your comment, and for educating me on Nuraphones! I'm going to look into this. I think that we are ripe for technologies such as this to revolutionize our hobby. At the same time, I am wary of EQ, especially ones that adjust for each person;s hearing. Unless you are eq'd all day every day, the regular sound that you hear will be without the EQ and only your system will have this correction. Any live music that you hear will not have this correction and so eq'd music playback will not sound the same. I guess I have to experience it before I make a real judgement.
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Thanks for watching GT!
One part of the equation is that most people are not educated/experienced in listening and what should and should not be there in the sound. Example, AC line noise, simply -nobody- knows what that sounds like because it is above the hearing range, so there is no noise, right? Ah no, the only way to know what AC noise sounds like is to take it away and then the influence of AC line noise is understood and that person will forever be able to identify it. I've spent the last 5 years sorting out a speaker build and the system built up around it and the room acoustics, during this process my being (one does not listen to/interpret what they are hearing with just the ears, it's a whole body thing) has learned many many things, the sound of resonances in the room, in the speakers, from room features and furniture... There are many ways evil noise can influence sound. The other aspect of it is that quite often negative issues with the rig result in really fun and great moments of sound, so it gets confusing because a rig with loads of issues can actually, in certain moments, sound great. Until you build your own speakers from your own design (gives you a lot of mistakes to discover and figure out and design a fix for) and learn acoustics and undertake the treatment of a few rooms you just have no idea for all the issues you don't know, can't identify etc. Cheers.
Thanks Bayard, sounds like a cool project you have going there! Yes, more experience does lead you to appreciate different sound. Living with open baffle speakers and widerange planars has left me with the ability to hear box resonances easily, I can even identify the sound of magnepan membranes, the coloration gets lower in frequency the larger the magnepan. Enjoy the process, I'm sure you will have something really special when you are done.
More than just taste-though that's a factor-most audiophiles are old (older than you, I think) and they probably have significant hearing loss in the higher registers.
Yes, that could be a factor, brighter systems may appeal to those who are less sensitive to the high end. I think we are all looking for different things and have different priorities as well.
Shows aren't the best places to audition equipment for one thing. Second, and more importantly, there is a huge misconception amongst the so called audiophile community. They're so focused on the tangible , the measurements, the "soundstage" the "imaging " the transparency , the speed and a million others terms they use to define what is the best system that they forget the most fundamental reason for any system to exist. To play music that the listener enjoys. When you go to a live concert whatever your taste in music may be, you're not talking about tight bass, transient imaging, deep soundstaging, crystal highs or sweet mids. You're only there to enjoy the music. And this has somehow gotten lost. So my suggestion is , forget the jargon, forget the measurements , forget the numbers , forget the sets or pure class A or switching bias or hybrid systems , forget all the brands and the equipment, and just listen to the music. In the end , that's all that matters.
Yes, good points you have. I remember a long time ago closing my eyes at a live performance, and listened for imaging. There was none! A lot of live music doesn't have the specific qualities that some people value. I love the gear as well, so playing with well built and engineered equipment is also fun, but yeah the music has to be there.
"different people like different sound" no they DONT. make these claims in the pro audio world, where for example all proper studio speakers are flat and smooth off-axis etc. as usual audiophiles refuce to read anything. the evidence is clear that a speaker must work a certain way, taste do not matter. but if a listener has no reference at all he will think a terrible speaker is good, well atleast for some time. for example if a speaker has 3-4-5db more in a certain range he will think its "detailed and dynamic", but its not. its doing something that shouldnt be there in the first place..
Hey Einar, thanks for your comment. Did you watch the video? My experience showed me that people like the sound of systems that I didn't like. I like stuff that others don't like. We all have our own preferences. I see you bring up pro audio, where equipment is a tool. Not the same thing. Sometimes people, when listening to music, like the tilted up high end or low order harmonic distortion. There are definite preferences, otherwise you would see the same setup in everyone's room!
@@davelistenstohifi how a speaker should function for everybody was determined decades ago, its not like a guy just decided.. buy Floyd Toole`s book on sound reproduction for the details. Harman also did a 2 year long blindtest study with 200 people, virtually everybody prefered the same thing. and its not like a monitor is different from home, all music you play at home is mixed in a controlled matter to make sure the results are similar at home. if you have wild spl differences and other defects your not going to hear the album right. a typical examples of this are speakers that only work with certain recordings and not with others, because they are lacking a lot or excessive in areas.
🤣AC/DC isn’t good music🙈😢.
Well, that's subjective, isn't it? At least it isn't Diana Krall...
Hard to complain about Audio when this video quality in 2024 looks worse than any reviewer on RUclips. And what’s with the alternate angle, where you don’t even square up to the camera?? You looked strained man!! And sorry, there is a better sounding source proven by “absolute” science. Digital Playback has more dynamic range, higher output and other “measurements” that are sonically noticeable with a decent set of ears. As far as particular gear, and ‘specs’…matching, placement and other factors come into play as well which you didn’t mention. You won’t find one musician who will tell you they want to record on “tape”, for one reason…it doesn’t sound better than digital recordings. As far A-AB, Tubes and Digital amplifiers that’s where preference really starts to play a role and I agree… it’s less subjective to any absolutes. But when it comes to wasting money and time in vinyl in 2024…. No way!!! Now get another camera or a new phone and shoot in HD.
Hey Thanks Csnumber1 for watching and commenting! Yes, using an older DSLR, I've just spent my camera budget on a new Krell power amp that will help me to hear deeper into the sound and hopefully give even better thoughts in my reviews. If you have an old camera to send me, I'd appreciate it! The alternate angle was to punctuate the difference in tone in my dialogue, one was the setup and the other was my resolution. Sorry you didn't appreciate everything about it. And your comment on Digital playback actually strengthens my comments-there are many people who prefer analogue sources because of the sound quality that is not measured with the traditional metrics. But you have your opinion and I have mine- we're both right ;-)
@@davelistenstohifi I think it looks fine. Way to make it personal tho. 😅 People skills are not Csnumber1s strong suit, eh? 😊
There's a reason I'm on RUclips and not doing this live 😒
And there is the vinegar drinker who cares more about form than content.
Always the same attacks on superficialities instead of making a good argument ... Because they have no congruent argument.
It is just those people who stay in the room because the others say it's awesome. And walk by the other room with a glance inside and judge the sound from outside.
I've been on enough shows to study human behaviour. At least Dave has something valid to say.
@@davelistenstohifi Yes, to paraphrase "your baby's ugly" but listen to my advice. lol.
I found the same thing on extremely revealing systems with very analytical, revealing speakers.
My son and I visited a very well-known name, amplifier sales and distributor on their location with an extremely high-end speakers, driven by the best of everything in a set up room.
When selecting properly recorded instruments and vocals, it was extremely outstanding to the point where my oldest son can rent this room to live in 🤣.
We too played AC/DC, some old Led Zeppelin, and some rock and pop that was basically meant for playing on radios and high volumes, but was not recorded well.
Recordings systems sound atrocious you don’t even wanna listen to them.
The majority I could not bear to listen to on the system they were that bad I could get no beat. There was no enjoyment..
Simply do not listen to bad recordings on excellent high-end, revealing systems because you will be very disappointed .
Hey Coldfinger, thanks for the comment. I have found that sometimes good systems will reveal a 'bad' recording but it doesn't bother me too much, I find it easy to conflate the recording quality with the music, it's all part of the same piece of art. Good systems allow me to see the whole thing clearer. Really detailed and unforgiving systems though seem to work best only with Amanda McBroom and Jazz at the pawnshop.