Thanks for covering this. He really does lift the covers and show what was happening underneath. In part 2 it should show that he sacrificed his own prospects by refusing to agree to Fujitsu’s demands.
I'm so glad you told me! Thank you! I had completely missed this, and although my anger of all this has never dropped... What I have learned from Mr McDonnell has bolstered it.
Mr McDonnell is refreshingly forthright and direct in his responses with a great memory. His statements are clear and very illuminating regarding the shoddy staff and substandard capabilities of many of those involved who were culpable and irresponsible as they played their part in this outrageous miscarriage of justice.
I missed this earlier and I’m so appreciative of the opportunity to see it now. I’ve watched everything you’ve done with gratitude and horror. I don’t actually know who you are or why you care enough to make all this effort but thank you so much for your great work.
This guy is SERIOUSLY OFF SCRIPT !!!!!!!!!..........I didnt hear him say, "i dont recall,......i have no recollection...i dont remember", !!!!!.....well done sir ......
Thanks for resurrecting. Very important representation. It needs to be seen to put the subsequent processes of 2024 into context. They all knew! Management, POL, Fujitsu, and Government.
Blimey. One person that can remember what was going on at the time. All others "I can't recall that", "Sorry didn;t see that email", "I have no recollection of that" "I trusted in my team and what they told me so never questioned it" "Thanks and yes I got a massive bonus at the end of the year"
Im a retired professional Test Analyst. Although I never worked on this project (thank goodness), a lot of what he says is bang on. The object of testing is not to drive out every defect \ bug there is. It's an impossible task due to project timescales, budget and implementation etc. The object of testing is to drive out as many defects / bugs, get them fixed and retested with no impact on code so that you can have confidence there are very few defects / bugs present in the code when it is promoted to Production \ Live environment. At that time, there should be no major defects / bugs outstanding and only an agreed small number of insignificant defects that cause no issues in Production. Defects \ bugs are categorised on severity on the code to function and impact on the business if not fixed or there being no work around. Oh and I never worked on a project where Developers didnt believe their coding was perfect and hence error free. The notion than some Developers on this project were allowed to write code their own way with absolutely no regard for project methodoly such as PRINCE 2 (Project In a Controlled Environment) or even peer review is frankly, shocking.
I totally agree with you. For many years I also worked on the User side of system development. Working with the Users in developing and writing User Requirements, developing and managing User Acceptance Testing and analysis of identified errors. It is nice to finally hear from an honest professional who is not continually running for cover.
How refreshing to listen to Clear answers to questions Without any fudging Coding is a very topical issue at the moment This evidence does not reflect well on fujitsu
what a breath of fresh air a man that is alert sits up has a memory and is functioning as an intelligent human being that is sitting in that position respect
No arm waving, no inconsequential jabbering, no ummming or aaaarring. Just a dignified gentleman who can face the questions in a quietly confident manner.
I've worked as a developer for 25 years and everything this guy says is absolutely spot on! The code samples in and of themselves were only moderately bad but they are indicative of incredibly poor developers. These guys were writing a financial system yet apparently couldn't figure out that you can multiply a number by -1 to invert the sign? WTF!?!?! That's basic primary school maths! What happened here is exactly what happened a decade later with Second Sight - people asked to review or audit what was happening to get to the truth. Then when the truth didn't fit a narrative they were dismissed or brushed aside. I've been following the inquiry as best I can, but Mr McDonnell predates when I was doing that, so great work Charlie in brining this to my attention!
An honest account of his recollection! Well done sir. He Obviously side stepped the Alzheimer cluster those at the PO and law firms seemed to have landed themselves in and been infected by.
When you dont lie....it's all very easy to recall...the truth requires very little work to recall information and doesn't require the use of the phrases...i don't recall....I only signed...er...papers.....I was never informed....it wasn't my responsibility....I'm outraged but what you need to understand....I never read that email...my cat was going through an identity crisis for months when all of this occurred.
The ad-hoc way code was amended or rewritten without integration and retesting of the whole is startlingly concerning. It’s like little ants or bees all suddenly starting to do their own thing for their own ends completely out of keeping with the rest of the colony. To highlight how coders wrote software then documentation afterwards to match, is truly and remarkably deceitful. If this was the early developmental stages or foundation of the Horizon system, it is unsurprising that the Horizon system was never truly fit for purpose. Well done David McDonnell and thank you for your honesty and clear explanations.
Yes it was well known among coders, the government of the day, and several people in the post office hierarchy that the online systems which eventually became horizon legacy and horizon on-line was absolute shyte! Yet because it was the cheapest option and PFI was involved in backing it, they all went ahead with it even though Pathway was the bottom of the tender pile, and initially not included in the accepted tenders because it was crap! But it was pushed through anyway. So at the end of the day successive governments since the 90s as well as Fujitsu, are ultimately to blame for the scandal. It was made worse by some in the post office who were told to go ahead with it, and of the course the cretins who were employed at management level and above. The so called investigators were just thugs in suits as Sir Alan Bates has said, and were backed up by management. Well, its all coming out now. And yet Fujitsu are still bidding and getting governments contracts. Mustn't upset the foreign money eh! Glaikits!
A classic case of poor management sticking their fingers in their ears & saying"I can't hear you. " resulting in a huge injustice to innocent & blameless SPM's. How can they live with themselves?
This is an excellent and terrible example of the universally appalling quality of British management. So many managers have insufficient knowledge to understand what is requured to priduce high quality work. Anyone attending a technical meeting these days, will wonder if we are on the same planet. Opinion,specuation and politicing abound.
Didn't spot the tie initially because I was viewing on a phone...I felt an affinity with the tie because it looked like my father's tie...and then you confirmed it. As you say Respect.
Military training. You're expected to be able to remember the details of an operation, and explain it, often many years later. 'I don't recall' not an option!
This looks like the smoking gun in the whole affair - the actual nuts and bolts of what was wrong with the software and the incompetents who were tasked to write it. It's deplorable that having seen that evidence, the Post Office continued to be in denial about the system's fitness for purpose for more than another decade
Seems to me that the real criminal in whole terrible affair is Fujitsu and the way they seem to have covered up their dreadful not fit for purpose software.
Shockingly pad practice, reminds me of a tale I heard in my early career as a software developer... legend has it , one dev did a search and replace int for sword and then checked in to cvs and went home. It took them weeks to unpick all the errors like sworderrupt service routines.
Strange how this man can recall all these technical facts from 20+years ago yet almost all PO and Fujitsu's employees can't remember anything to do with bugs fault or defects.
Very interesting. This information paints a very different picture of the line that the ongoing maintenance and fixing of BEDs “as and when” was normal in systems of this complexity. It was a product that should never have been rolled out in PO. Lamentable. Add in the gamut of people from underqualified, to incompetent, to pretentious, plus a blatantly unfair contract between POL and SPMs, and you have a car crash of monumental scale on your hands.
How much did Horizon cost? I tend to think that they would have been better off sticking to paper accounting. If it is not broken, do not attempt repair it. Too much influence towards technology , After all, the paper system was "robust" and easily checked.
Upon reflection of this evidence What were the senior it people Working for royal mail and po Doing Accepting this system Howl did they arrive at the mantra Horizon is robust and infallible Sadly spms ended up in prison Cells Surely we are looking at a massive group civil action against fujitsu
Wow! For once, someone who didn't swallow the "I don't remember" pill unlike every senior exec who's taken the stand! Funny how he can recall details from the 90s isn't it?
If the postmasters lawyers are worth anything, they should be suing FJ for all the money their clients lost while they were postmasters, plus all the money they would have earned in the subsequent period. Not sure if they can do this in the UK but tack on punitive damages for loss of reputation, mental stress, pain and suffering. While the practices at FJ/ICL were horrendous, they're not criminal. It's up the the customer to demand what they're paying for. Pretty shabby of the PO not to sign off on design documentation before development started. Criminal of PO employees/lawyers to take postmasters to court and not submit all this evidence into discovery
The postmasters won't be suing Fujitsu because they already successfully sued the Post Office so this would be double recovery. It's likely POL had a valid cause of action against Fujitsu but also likely they've missed limitation as they had knowledge of FJ's shortcomings in 2013 at the latest. The negligence of FJ in its design likely occurred in the 1998 to 2005 period. Primary limitation is 6 years for negligence and breach of contract but time may not run until you acquire knowledge of the breach. This will only buy you 3 years. Longstop limitation period is 15 years!
People need to go to jail They knew even the coding was rotten to the core but covered it up. Shameful and utter incompetence. But hey - "I got a bonus at the end of the year"
Anyone know what language the first iteration of Horizon (i.e Legacy) was written in? And also for that matter what was the version called Horizon Online written in? (McDonnell mentioned VB -- yikes). 57:33 OMG it's VB
very good early software engineers could see the future and got into programing games ! the useless foder went into programing shit like horizon and thats the difference
Not entirely correct. I know, I wrote assembler for several banks in the uk in the late 60s early 70s. The distinction between the program SPECIFICATION and actually CODING to create that new program is vital - and needs to be addressed……
Maybe he’s just been trained or was born give testimony, and he is involved… but it sort of seems as though if you’re just telling the truth you can recall/try to recall a lot more and not constantly obstruct/obfuscate/cry/be belligerent and defensive?
pinICL is a bug and POCL is Post Office Counters Limited... it was renamed Post Office Limited (POL)
Another ex employee witnesswho speaks with candour is Richard Roll. Worth a look
Thanks for covering this. He really does lift the covers and show what was happening underneath. In part 2 it should show that he sacrificed his own prospects by refusing to agree to Fujitsu’s demands.
I'm so glad you told me! Thank you! I had completely missed this, and although my anger of all this has never dropped... What I have learned from Mr McDonnell has bolstered it.
Surely this guy is in the wrong room, he's telling the TRUTH!
Poor man, needs psychiatric treatment to teach him to lie.
Mr McDonnell is refreshingly forthright and direct in his responses with a great memory. His statements are clear and very illuminating regarding the shoddy staff and substandard capabilities of many of those involved who were culpable and irresponsible as they played their part in this outrageous miscarriage of justice.
I missed this earlier and I’m so appreciative of the opportunity to see it now. I’ve watched everything you’ve done with gratitude and horror. I don’t actually know who you are or why you care enough to make all this effort but thank you so much for your great work.
Well said 🏅 @mrscpc1918
Charlie's great isn't he? Love his sarcastic comments😂
This guy is SERIOUSLY OFF SCRIPT !!!!!!!!!..........I didnt hear him say, "i dont recall,......i have no recollection...i dont remember", !!!!!.....well done sir ......
Yes!!!!!!.........!!!!!!........
Somebody who can remember not ofsfuscating it was to long ago .
Good honorable man.
Thanks for resurrecting.
Very important representation. It needs to be seen to put the subsequent processes of 2024 into context.
They all knew! Management, POL, Fujitsu, and Government.
Blimey. One person that can remember what was going on at the time.
All others "I can't recall that", "Sorry didn;t see that email", "I have no recollection of that" "I trusted in my team and what they told me so never questioned it" "Thanks and yes I got a massive bonus at the end of the year"
love your synisism
Im a retired professional Test Analyst. Although I never worked on this project (thank goodness), a lot of what he says is bang on.
The object of testing is not to drive out every defect \ bug there is. It's an impossible task due to project timescales, budget and implementation etc. The object of testing is to drive out as many defects / bugs, get them fixed and retested with no impact on code so that you can have confidence there are very few defects / bugs present in the code when it is promoted to Production \ Live environment.
At that time, there should be no major defects / bugs outstanding and only an agreed small number of insignificant defects that cause no issues in Production. Defects \ bugs are categorised on severity on the code to function and impact on the business if not fixed or there being no work around.
Oh and I never worked on a project where Developers didnt believe their coding was perfect and hence error free. The notion than some Developers on this project were allowed to write code their own way with absolutely no regard for project methodoly such as PRINCE 2 (Project In a Controlled Environment) or even peer review is frankly, shocking.
Exactly! The idea there was no testing and huge defects were ignored is breathtakingly outrageous.
I totally agree with you. For many years I also worked on the User side of system development. Working with the Users in developing and writing User Requirements, developing and managing User Acceptance Testing and analysis of identified errors.
It is nice to finally hear from an honest professional who is not continually running for cover.
But my code is always perfect and always works on my machine 😅😅
He certainly knows what he’s talking about and being upfront with what he observed is so refreshing. Clearly not a POL employee
How refreshing to listen to
Clear answers to questions
Without any fudging
Coding is a very topical issue at the moment
This evidence does not reflect well on fujitsu
Isn't it? Nice to not see and hear "what we know now, hindsight, I can't recall," etc over and over again.
what a breath of fresh air a man that is alert sits up has a memory and is functioning as an intelligent human being that is sitting in that position respect
No arm waving, no inconsequential jabbering, no ummming or aaaarring. Just a dignified gentleman who can face the questions in a quietly confident manner.
I've worked as a developer for 25 years and everything this guy says is absolutely spot on!
The code samples in and of themselves were only moderately bad but they are indicative of incredibly poor developers. These guys were writing a financial system yet apparently couldn't figure out that you can multiply a number by -1 to invert the sign? WTF!?!?! That's basic primary school maths!
What happened here is exactly what happened a decade later with Second Sight - people asked to review or audit what was happening to get to the truth. Then when the truth didn't fit a narrative they were dismissed or brushed aside.
I've been following the inquiry as best I can, but Mr McDonnell predates when I was doing that, so great work Charlie in brining this to my attention!
An honest account of his recollection! Well done sir. He Obviously side stepped the Alzheimer cluster those at the PO and law firms seemed to have landed themselves in and been infected by.
Thank you Mr McDonnell
I’m glad to see this, I plan to watch all of phase 1 and 2 during the recess
When you dont lie....it's all very easy to recall...the truth requires very little work to recall information and doesn't require the use of the phrases...i don't recall....I only signed...er...papers.....I was never informed....it wasn't my responsibility....I'm outraged but what you need to understand....I never read that email...my cat was going through an identity crisis for months when all of this occurred.
The ad-hoc way code was amended or rewritten without integration and retesting of the whole is startlingly concerning. It’s like little ants or bees all suddenly starting to do their own thing for their own ends completely out of keeping with the rest of the colony. To highlight how coders wrote software then documentation afterwards to match, is truly and remarkably deceitful. If this was the early developmental stages or foundation of the Horizon system, it is unsurprising that the Horizon system was never truly fit for purpose.
Well done David McDonnell and thank you for your honesty and clear explanations.
Yes it was well known among coders, the government of the day, and several people in the post office hierarchy that the online systems which eventually became horizon legacy and horizon on-line was absolute shyte! Yet because it was the cheapest option and PFI was involved in backing it, they all went ahead with it even though Pathway was the bottom of the tender pile, and initially not included in the accepted tenders because it was crap! But it was pushed through anyway. So at the end of the day successive governments since the 90s as well as Fujitsu, are ultimately to blame for the scandal. It was made worse by some in the post office who were told to go ahead with it, and of the course the cretins who were employed at management level and above. The so called investigators were just thugs in suits as Sir Alan Bates has said, and were backed up by management. Well, its all coming out now. And yet Fujitsu are still bidding and getting governments contracts. Mustn't upset the foreign money eh! Glaikits!
Great work Charlie! Thanks.
Funny how he can recall detailed stuff back then but everyone else cant recall anything at all, even basic stuff.
Incredible really, the more you get paid the less you remember
Thank you for a blast from the past.
A classic case of poor management sticking their fingers in their ears & saying"I can't hear you. " resulting in a huge injustice to innocent & blameless SPM's. How can they live with themselves?
Narcissists have no conscience.
This is an excellent and terrible example of the universally appalling quality of British management. So many managers have insufficient knowledge to understand what is requured to priduce high quality work. Anyone attending a technical meeting these days, will wonder if we are on the same planet. Opinion,specuation and politicing abound.
An amazing man, never caught Alzheimer's even though it was prevalent!
Parachute Regiment tie !
Respect.
Didn't spot the tie initially because I was viewing on a phone...I felt an affinity with the tie because it looked like my father's tie...and then you confirmed it. As you say Respect.
Military training. You're expected to be able to remember the details of an operation, and explain it, often many years later. 'I don't recall' not an option!
At last a truth teller
This looks like the smoking gun in the whole affair - the actual nuts and bolts of what was wrong with the software and the incompetents who were tasked to write it. It's deplorable that having seen that evidence, the Post Office continued to be in denial about the system's fitness for purpose for more than another decade
Seems to me that the real criminal in whole terrible affair is Fujitsu and the way they seem to have covered up their dreadful not fit for purpose software.
Fudgeitsue 😉
This is the first honest witness i have seen in this enquiry.
Shockingly pad practice, reminds me of a tale I heard in my early career as a software developer... legend has it , one dev did a search and replace int for sword and then checked in to cvs and went home. It took them weeks to unpick all the errors like sworderrupt service routines.
Strange how this man can recall all these technical facts from 20+years ago yet almost all PO and Fujitsu's employees can't remember anything to do with bugs fault or defects.
Finally someone actually talking about the code
Good to hear from an actual professional
Rather than all Labour’s diversity hires
Early PFI structured IT projects were known to be terrible value-for-money (Hambros Bank briefing, 1999, to Transport Canada, Ottawa).
Tardy Work all around good job the pilots and Air force did'nt have that attitude in the 1940s
Is it just me or does Mr. Beer look ten years younger in this video? This Commission is having it's toll.
They all look WAY younger lol, I think the scum who scammed people should pay for a spa and holiday for the inquiry runners!
Very interesting. This information paints a very different picture of the line that the ongoing maintenance and fixing of BEDs “as and when” was normal in systems of this complexity. It was a product that should never have been rolled out in PO. Lamentable. Add in the gamut of people from underqualified, to incompetent, to pretentious, plus a blatantly unfair contract between POL and SPMs, and you have a car crash of monumental scale on your hands.
How much did Horizon cost? I tend to think that they would have been better off sticking to paper accounting. If it is not broken, do not attempt repair it. Too much influence towards technology , After all, the paper system was "robust" and easily checked.
Phew. A professional coder!
You go mr. Mcdonnel very refreshing 😊
Unbelievable how good is the truth 👏
Someone with a memory.
The first truth teller I’ve heard during the Inquiry.
SISO = SHIT IN, SHIT OUT
Finally, the reasons behind the failures of Horizon are being aired.
Surreal to see evidence given in such a UNFAMILIAR/DIFFERENT surroundings…
Upon reflection of this evidence
What were the senior it people
Working for royal mail and po
Doing
Accepting this system
Howl did they arrive at the mantra
Horizon is robust and infallible
Sadly spms ended up in prison
Cells
Surely we are looking at a massive group civil action against fujitsu
Just watched this after having watched most of the 2024. WOW. The Horizon that the sub- Postmasters had to deal with was a total POS from Day ONE.
Wow! For once, someone who didn't swallow the "I don't remember" pill unlike every senior exec who's taken the stand! Funny how he can recall details from the 90s isn't it?
Thousands of known bugs ?
But fortunately, there were no unknown bugs. 🙂
Some 19000 bugs to date
They came, they saw, they left!!😅
Well done david mcdonnell this is absolutely appalling from icl fujitsu
If the postmasters lawyers are worth anything, they should be suing FJ for all the money their clients lost while they were postmasters, plus all the money they would have earned in the subsequent period. Not sure if they can do this in the UK but tack on punitive damages for loss of reputation, mental stress, pain and suffering. While the practices at FJ/ICL were horrendous, they're not criminal. It's up the the customer to demand what they're paying for. Pretty shabby of the PO not to sign off on design documentation before development started. Criminal of PO employees/lawyers to take postmasters to court and not submit all this evidence into discovery
The postmasters won't be suing Fujitsu because they already successfully sued the Post Office so this would be double recovery. It's likely POL had a valid cause of action against Fujitsu but also likely they've missed limitation as they had knowledge of FJ's shortcomings in 2013 at the latest. The negligence of FJ in its design likely occurred in the 1998 to 2005 period. Primary limitation is 6 years for negligence and breach of contract but time may not run until you acquire knowledge of the breach. This will only buy you 3 years. Longstop limitation period is 15 years!
SO……. Errors in SPECIFICATION OR THE CODE. REALLY THE NUB OF THE PROBLEM.
51:20 aha, now I see the light! ICL turkeys made the classic error of putting prototypes into production. Cowboy coders abounded.
People need to go to jail
They knew even the coding was rotten to the core but covered it up.
Shameful and utter incompetence.
But hey - "I got a bonus at the end of the year"
Testing, testing, testing 😂😢
Blair knew in 1998! @ the very beginning! 😉
Fudgeitsue knew 😉
When was this. Room looks odd
Anyone know what language the first iteration of Horizon (i.e Legacy) was written in? And also for that matter what was the version called Horizon Online written in? (McDonnell mentioned VB -- yikes).
57:33 OMG it's VB
Post office should be prosecuted this is true they all new this
Curiously, is he wearing a Parachute Regiment tie?????
This is the key to the whole issue. Horizon is and always has been, a crock of shit.
11:27 Charlie, my guess is that at least one is probably still there..... Gareth Idris Jenkins!!
"Developed on the fly and shoehorned into the code" ... aka The Cowboy Systems Development Methodology. Yee-haa!
so the guy running the day-to-day technical development was just out of school (ok, college) ... ?????
So reversed engineered……. Code first, spec second. Guaranteed problems…..
Absolutely shocking
McDonnell and Jenkins - they can't both be telling the truth, can they?
Awesome thanks for your efforts and sharing your experience ❤
I appreciate your edited uploads however your comments are very strange/nonsequitors and they appear for excessively long.
Wots rong wiv da kode? lucks purphekt 2 mee
very good early software engineers could see the future and got into programing games ! the useless foder went into programing shit like horizon and thats the difference
Not entirely correct. I know, I wrote assembler for several banks in the uk in the late 60s early 70s. The distinction between the program SPECIFICATION and actually CODING to create that new program is vital - and needs to be addressed……
Maybe he’s just been trained or was born give testimony, and he is involved… but it sort of seems as though if you’re just telling the truth you can recall/try to recall a lot more and not constantly obstruct/obfuscate/cry/be belligerent and defensive?