Pretend that this video released on time in October or something. This video is Misdreavus propaganda. The best Pokemon in all of Colosseum (I need to finish editing that one of these days)
I'm surprised not to hear a mention of how Ghosts also became unaffected by trapping moves and abilities in Gen 6, preventing them from getting locked into bad matchups. Whenever you get around to discussing the Poison type, keep in mind that Sludge was the strongest Poison move, but it was only available to the two toxic waste families; everyone else had to settle for Poison Sting or Acid. I suspect there was a thematic reason for that decision, but its effects on gameplay were certainly interesting.
The pure ghost tank that is Dusclops is a strong argument for why Gengar had to be nerfed in the gen where Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense were the same thing.
One of the really interesting things about the ghosts in gen 1 is that in practice, the ones in the tower more or less didn't use their special stat for offense at all; they use defense as a dump stat because they were immune to the physical moves you were likely to have at the time, and they had great defenses against the types that were actually able to hit them. Combined with their movepools being limited to a weak physical move that causes paralysis, a fixed damage move, and confuse ray, in practice they were weirdly effective at being walls that chipped you to death and drained your resources during a long dungeon - if the psychic interaction worked properly, it would have meant that your best answer to them was still something that could reasonably be worn down by them, instead of the win button it ended up being
Bug as an archetype has shifted pretty drastically since Gen 1 where they were "bad late game, great early game". Now they're defined more by having some of the best individual moves and abilities in the game (outside of legendaries and starters) balanced by mediocre stat spreads and type interactions - these moves usually involve absurd amounts of boosting. They also have a secondary archetypal niche as trappers and punishers - as well as just momentum control in general (look at every "Web/Thread/String" move and you'll notice the speed control/trapping pattern).
I always thought it was cool that Ghost and Dragon were such rare types in Gen 1-2, that each game introduced only one evolutionary line at the time. That made Gengar and Dragonite very special in gen 1, perhaps even more special than legendary birds. I know that people like to trash on Agatha and Lance for their team having non-ghost/dragon type Pokémon, but even 9 years old me understood that these types are supposed to be so rare, that even trainers that specialises on them don't have team full of them and need to bring Pokémon that fits esthetically and thematically. Yeah sure, Charizard and Gyarados look like dragons, but I think giving them dragon type would make Dragonite less unique
me going to check the video's release date because you were talking about halloween and you instantly saying it is delayed was the funniest thing to me
I love the early PKMN characterization. If Dragons were supposed the strongest animal, ghost were supposed to be the strongest spiritual,kinda fitting the japanese view of Kami and shinto. It was one of the Boss Types, like Ice and Rock seemed to present themselves as. I like more the Toon style power as well, rather than only the serious aspect of Ghost.
To be fair, gen 1 Gengar wasn't that frail. Single special stat meant its special defense was sky high. And what were the physical types in gen 1? Normal (immune), Fighting (immune), Poison (double resisted), Rock (i love missing moves), Ghost (20 bp kino), Bug (would actually have been neutral because poison and bug were mutually super effective back then, too bad it's the bug type), Flying and Ground. So yeah unless you're packing Earthquake or Drill Peck you're not killing gen 1 Gengar easily especially with Dream Eater
I disagree with 12:00, even thought it might be because I play lastest gen competitive pokémon. When I think Ghost, I think generally specially offensive and fast pokémon, sometimes frail, sometimes with a good support movepool, so besides gengar, I think of Chandelure, Marshadow, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo, Spectrier, Polteageist, etc.
I'm pretty sure ghost types were always meant to be a tricky prankster archetype, all of the ghost types in gen 1's dungeon were only trying to inconvenience you without doing significant damage. The type was all the defensive profile it needed, while it's higher speed means they would have more chances to inflict status onto you. Plus the anime also supports this with how the ghastly first appeared and all of them were just trying to prank the main cast.
I would like to see more videos like this for diferent relevant types in pokemon, like the 3 type starters, the psychic type, the dark, dragon amd fairy type for example.
I disagree that Gengar's stats were intentionally made to be bad to offset Ghost's power, though I certainly agree that Poison was purely a detriment. Instead, it was given power to fulfil the ghost trope/fantasy. Gengar was weak to only Ground and Psychic. However, it has 130 Special so it can somewhat tank Psychic attacks. Since Gengar is immune to Normal and Fighting, though, its low DEF hurts it less than it normally would. Its high speed allows it to make use of the status inducing moves that are fitting for a ghost to use, before an opponent could make a move - ambushing and surprising the enemy pokemon, if you will, and leaving them confused or asleep, or paralyzed via Lick, possibly unable to do anything - and I think there are several TMs it can also use to make use of its high Special and Speed to one-shot enemy teams (since the AI doesn't have EVs).
13:05 I would’ve probably have had Ghost and Dragon trade places. You know, given how we got a part Ghost starter in Alola, Hisui, and Paldea. I do hope that Game Freak takes a break from using Ghost as a secondary type for starters along with Dark and Fighting.
Something it looks like you didn't consider is what Gengar's movepool actually does have. In a game where non-Normal moves are rare, and if you get them it's probably just whatever your type is, Gengar's movepool is absurd. It gets Dream Eater by level to go with it's Hypnosis, your pick of Thunderbolt or Thunder, Psychic if you don't want to bother with Hypnosis, Mega Drain if you think Grass moves are any good when you can have Electric for some reason... The only Pokemon that I can think of that tops this movepool is Nidoking, and all the good moves actually go with it's stats, unlike something like Hitmonchan, which has a good set of moves that it can't actually use because of it's low Special. If Gengar was made a fast special attacker because of how strong Ghost makes it, then they messed up by giving it access to a bunch of moves that make it really really good at being a fast special attacker anyway. With that Special stat, Psychic and Thunderbolt don't actually NEED STAB to be great!
@zivronen9539 Is the implication that an untrained player isn't going to see what on their team can learn new TMs...? I can easily see a new player getting Gastly because "This thing isn't hurt by a bunch of my attacks, I want one," then just sorta trying TMs on it and stumbling into teaching it Psychic. Gastly might actually be the second most accessible Psychic user before the gift Lapras, behind Butterfree. Everything else is rare or off the beaten path.
@@wildwolf8505 A newbie isn't necessarily going to save up their TMs to use optimally, so they may spend psychic on their Drowzee or teach thunderbolt to one of the many other Pokemon that can learn it. This is the sort of thing you'd get rewarded for playing smart and stumbling upon it. You just happened to save your TMs and just happened to stick it out training a Ghastly. Gengar being a lot less useful without a bit of investment is more or less what they were going for.
17:44 That had me laughing. Always have to pick the *type* that is Super Effective. Good thing GameFreak moved on to test for damage roll comparison between moves as well in gen 2.
Ghost was supposed and is still the type that's “Hard to hit” . It packs only 2 weaknesess and 2 immunes. They just stand there and either wittle you down actively or passively.
Ghost is my second favorite type. Only beat by Poison. I would love a type video focused on the poison type it’s the only one that excels at damage over time.
15:12 This is a very poor example. Melee doesnt run on the same engine at all. The devs saved no resources/time when building new and old characters. Gamers over estimate how many resources drafting/designing takes VS actually implementing assets into the game. A waaaay better example is Smash 4 and Ultimate. Ultimate reuses almost every character model from the previous entry, allowing them to make a massive roster . Secondly, going back to Pokemon and "archetypes" theory... Kingler. A physical Water type. There was no pattern or meticulous sense involved. They just gave stats that felt "right" for the design without considering balance. Devs like Sakurai (going back to Smash) admitted to doing stuff like that during the early entries (like giving Link poor recovery because "he cant jump in his own series" even though that doesnt fit his kit design like his in a fighting game like Smash)
If we recall the buffs Ghosts received in Gen 9: • Flutter Mane • Rage Fist • Last Respects • Gholdengo • One of the best starters (Skeledirge), and one of the few bulky ghost types Basculegion with Last Respects was an Uber breaking threat and in Gen 9 Nat Dex Uber Mega Gengar was immediately banned to AG when Gengar received encore this gen. And even Calyrex Shadow Rider was banned from Uber but that was Tera's fault though ... Why did just one type receive such huge buffs in one generation??¿
I don't think Ghost was meant to be the defensive bastion you claim it to be. The flavor text in Sabrina's gym isn't advertising Ghost-types as the defensive answer to Psychics: It's advertising the Psychic types as one only beatable by Ghosts. The flavor text in Lavender, for example, highlights them not as impenetrable or bulky, but as tricky, illusory, and mentally taxing. My prototypical Ghost mon would be high SpAtk, high Spd, low HP and low Def, not the bulky wall you described.
The first third of this video is a complete rollercoaster: > What is THE Ghost, the first you think of Well the first I think of is Shuppet. He was my first Card ever, which was long before I ever got to play any of the games. (I guess that makes Shuppet my Starter???) > How would you design the quintessential ghost for gen 1's limitations Well, I'd want high attack like Banette to take advantage of Ghost being physical in that gen > You'd probably go for something like how Dusclops or Banette are designed I LITERALLY PUMPED MY FIST IN THE AIR AND CHEERED SLKDJFGLKSJDHLKFJDGHLKDJLK
16:35 I can't agree with that. For one thing their only STAB Ghost move was Lick, and I want to believe the designers weren't expecting the player to use that move as their only offensive Ghost move. There's also the matter of their typing. The Poison-type feels like a strange inclusion on all levels. They dont even make mention of being poisonous in their dex entries, only Gastly being made of a "gas". It seems more likely to me that the designers wanted the Ghost type to be immune to the poisoned condition (lacking physical bodies?) but couldnt do it without adding the type. Since back then types were immune to the effects of moves of their own type, rather than flat out immune. There's simply not enough information to suggest the Ghost-type was under devloped rather than intentionally nerfed, especially since a Gengar without the Poison-type wasn't all that dangerous to the Psychic-type to begin with, even if it could do SE damage.
I remember taking a long time to figure out why I couldn't hurt Morty's Pokémon back in Gold,which was my first Pokémon game. Will there be a dragon type video before the year of the dragon ends?
This channel specifically goes over to Pokemon's individual assets and how they work in the context of game design. I'd actually wager that Ground has historically been the best type. Access to a wide array of offensive and defensive benefits, the single best STAB move in the game in terms of coverage, a lot of generally good stay distribution across the board.
@@dawsonmoore2496 it depends, a lot of offensive tera types either use the mons stab type for extra damage or uses a coverage type to hit over mons that resists it, though tera normal espeed is pretty popular
I though status moves tended to be ignored by the type chart, for non ability type immunity, unless if the move sub category that gets affected (sound, powder moves, etc.)
@@lordinfernape4753 Most status moves do in fact ignore type immunities. The only exceptions are Glare (for some reason) and Thunder Wave (probably because in most games it's a TM or a Move Tutor, and 100% accurate paralysis causing move at the time, and paralysis not only killed your speed, but made it so sometimes you just didn't move at all, to the point that G7 nerfed paralysis by making speed penalty only 50% instead of 75% and make TWave somewhat inaccurate). They do not ignore Ability based immunities, though (except Sand-Attack, which can still hit Levitaters).
I would say that the Bug typing's archetype is less like Caterpie & Weedle, & moreso like Beedrill, Scyther, Pinsir, Ledyba, Volbeet, Venipede, and Ninjask. They reallly like to drastically boost their stats with things like Speed Boost, Swords Dance, Tail Glow, Agility, Quiver Dance, etc. to compensate for their often weak defensive profile & poor STAB coverage. The early Bug archetype is certainly a thing just like the early Normal-rodents, but in terms of how the bulk of Bugs function in Pokemon, I wouldn't be terribly shocked to encounter say, a Swords Dancer.
That's an interesting way to see how Bugs were back then. And to add on to it, there's even String Shot, that didnt boost Bug Pokemon stats, but reduced the opponent's, which indirectly makes them better.
The way I see it, Bug types lack strong fundamentals (stats, type matchups) but try and make up for it with their moves (Bpunch Scizor, U-Turn, Quiver Dance, First Impression)
I know this isn't actually to do with the ghost type; but gen 1 Gengar was good because of its amazing coverage. Just completely ignore ghost and poison moves and slap Psychic, Hypnosis, and two of Dream Eater, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, any special move you want really. And now you have a pokemon that can put the enemy to sleep at the speed of light, hit supereffectively or neutrally against literally any pokemon with its high Special, potentially heal itself, completely wall Hyper Beam, and even be reasonably defensive against most special attacks due to how the Special stat works.
Flutter Mane fans rise up!!! Also, for the dark type video I'm curious if you got anything to say about how dark's offensive presence is the exact same as ghost's besides dark being able to hit normal and fairy and fighitng not resisting ghost.
Offensive presence is actually only half of the Dark Type's core identity. And that mostly stems from most early Dark Types actually having offensive-leaning stat spreads compared to Ghosts, which leaned defensively. However, that is still only half. The other half is a lot less noticed, though arguably more consistent. Hint: Look at all Dark moves (especially the non-damaging ones) and you'll start to notice a clear trend.
@@GoldenOwl_Game Dark tends to fight "dirty." Preventing item usage with Embargo, if not outright removing your held item with Thief or Knock Off. Preventing consecutive usage of the same move with Torment, stops status move useage with Taunt, or prevent switching with Imprisson. Ignoring the action priority order with Sucker Punch on attacks, or Pursuit on switchout. Or using the opponents strength against them with Foul Play. I could go on... but then we reach Dark type moves I have no experience with.
@Goldeneye3336 bro im a competitive player, i know this already, alot more than typing goes into it Im saying fairy is CONSIDERED the bssr type, not that its universal or objective
@@enzoforgets9456 Being a competitive player does not mean shit to me. You can play very casually competitive games. Doesn't make you knowledgeable. Steel is stronger into Fairy. That's not a debate.
Still crazy that half of the gen 1 dex is lumped with only normal moves. You're pronpted to make your iwb unique team, only to realize that most of the mons play exactly the same, with very few exceptions.
It makes sense when you look at other RPGs from the time. The idea is that the Normal the moves were the "basic" attacks that had lower damage but could be used more often, and the Typed-moves were the "special" abilities that were more powerful but can only be used sparingly.
@josephbulkin9222 Vileplume is a Stone Evolution that isn't Eevee, so it doesn't get some of Gloom's level up moves. Petal Dance is exclusive to Gloom's level up list in Gen 1, which is the best Power Grass move unless Razor Leaf always crits for you.
All i can see is that game freak has been after my boy gengar since gen 1. Culminating in their most blatant attack against him to date, replacing levitate with curse body. What kinda jackass gives a *glass cannon* a skill that activates upon being hit? A spiteful one i assure you.
Maybe i am wrong but for what i remember the deal with Ghosts in Gen 1 was that the Gengar line was Ghost/Poison, and therefore naturally weak to psychic, and the only Ghost damaging move in Gen 1 been Lick a Physical move with 30 Power. No glitch in this ocassion, just poor choice of type and a lackluster move
There was indeed a glitch; even if Ghosts had a better damaging move, it wouldn't have helped against Psychic types because Psychic was unintentionally immune to Ghost in gen 1.
@Milesprowerthegamer good to have confirmation. Like i said i didnt remember exactly, but i did read somewhere like years ago, that some of the quirkest features of Gen 1 came not much from glitches but from unnintended mechanics. Like making the only ghost types part poison.
@@TheDeathmail Nah, just to not spread misinformation, Psychic was completely immune to ghost type, it's just that Night Shade, the other ghost type move, was a fixed-damage move, moves which in Gen 1 completely ignored the type chart (for example, fighting-type Seismic Toss can hurt ghost type, even though Ghost as a type is immune to Fighting).
You're missing the fact that a lot of its stats was allocated to speed. Froslass wasn't made to be a sweeper, it was made to do...whatever speedy pokemon do like Electrode and Deoxys-Speed. Fortunately, it was introduced at the right time. Gen IV put great emphasis on the lead metagame so Froslass being a fast Spiker that you couldn't use rapid spin against was a huge boon. With a Focus Sash, you could set up at least two layers of spikes before dying. That was just the surface level though, turns out JUST being fast is a huge benefit because you can do more annoying things like using Destiny Bond or Thunder Wave making it a pretty clean 1-for-1 trade. Then it gets even...weirder. Bulky sets using Substitute and Pain Split to wear down their opponents. A BULKY set with those defenses, once again only enabled by its high speed. This is actually a common archetype that other ghost types like Mismagius, Gengar, and Sableye (because of Prankster) often utilize, but I'm not entirely sure whether Game Freak intended it :/.
@kyklous3657 Spikes? You mean a move it doesnt naturally learn? Sure, that was DEFINITELY the way it was meant to be used. Dusknoir at least has the Attack and Defenses to sustain itself.
@josephbulkin9222 You misunderstood. My point ended with the first paragraph: it does speedy pokemon things. The paragraphs after are just me showing how it has ACTUALLY been used in competitive pokemon regardless of the devs' intent hence the last statement.
What if Froslass got a little bit more special attack (like 95) and nasty plot? It's actually surprising that Froslass already doesn't get nasty plot but it might be for balance reasons (ghost type moves not being resisted by many types and to prevent fast blizzard spam in double battles). This comment is also meant for the competitive player who replied to you but he probably won't see this as I replied to only you.
It should be noted that in Gen 1, Ghost was SUPPOSED to be super effective against Psychic, but the move Lick (the only damage dealing ghost move) had an error that made it do no damage against psychic.... So it wasn't that psychic was immune to ghost, just the move lick....
No, actually it's kind of the other way around. Lick works as intended, sticking to the type chart (we have decompilations of RBY, the move works fine). The other ghost move, Night Shade, can hit Psychic types BECAUSE it's a fixed-damage move, which in Gen 1 completely ignore the type chart. Case in point, it can also hurt normal types that should be immune to it, and the same thing happens with Seismic Toss, a fixed-damage fighting type move that shouldn't be able to hit ghosts, but does anyways.
Maybe it's just me, but I disagree when it comes to thinking what a ghost archetype is. When I think of a ghost the first thing that comes to mind is something frail, but fast with a lot of offense.
If there’s an interesting subject to talk about, I’m not opposed to it. The odd thing about PMD is that nobody really cares about the game itself - they are heavily story driven, which is unusual for a Pokemon game
@@GoldenOwl_Game That's fair. Music and character writing(I still can't believe some of those Special Episodes are optional) might not be as straightforward to talk about. Beyond that, I guess there could be something about character creation, because making the player taking an entire personality quiz isn't something I see every day.
Coding errors + a stat system that treated Special as both an offensive and defensive stat, a great damaging move with a high chance of further lowering the Special of the opponent, and frankly lack of foresight by making Psychic only be resisted by itself. So, similarly to how in theory the best way to take down a ghost was with other ghosts, the best way to stop a Psychic type is with another Psychic type.
She was definitely meant to be ghost. Her battlefield is in a graveyward and her name is "agatha" which sounds similarly to "aghast". The only reason she doesnt have more ghost pokemons was because of gen 1 limitation of having only the ghastly line. On that note, Lance was a dragon trainer with 3 flying types. Does that mean he's flying?
Except for Pokemon Stadium. Where they gave her a Venusaur to emphasize the poison aspect. Obviously she is meant to focus on Ghost, but she just so happened to have "Poison Expert" tacked onto her because lol gen ghosts
Gengars stats and stabs do not match but that is good design because gengar is still a solid ou pokemon in the first few generations. every pokemon needs some weakness.
Am I the only one who thinks it is far beyond insane that ghost type was registered as physical in generation one. Please tell me I am not alone that literally doesn't make sense.
At what point in the design stage do you say “maybe we should give pokemon more non-normal type moves” instead of nerfing the sole ghost type 🤦🏽♂️ Edit: lol apparently the answer according to the video is “gen 3” 💀
![[Pokemon] arche-Type Talk: A perfectly Normal video about the Normal Type](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lVyaaZRkysM/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Pokemon] arche-Type Talk: A perfectly Normal video about the Normal Type](/img/tr.png)
![[Pokemon] arche-Type Talk: The Fire, Water & Grass Starter Trio](/img/1.gif)
Pretend that this video released on time in October or something.
This video is Misdreavus propaganda. The best Pokemon in all of Colosseum (I need to finish editing that one of these days)
Got Colosseum recently and I have to agree. It doesn't need legs to kick some serious behind.
All hail Abby!
it doesn't affect Misdreavus
I don't think its a coincidence that Steel no longer resists Ghost and Dark in the exact same generation they added Aegislash...
Gengar is the definition of "nerfed for the plot's own good".
I'm surprised not to hear a mention of how Ghosts also became unaffected by trapping moves and abilities in Gen 6, preventing them from getting locked into bad matchups.
Whenever you get around to discussing the Poison type, keep in mind that Sludge was the strongest Poison move, but it was only available to the two toxic waste families; everyone else had to settle for Poison Sting or Acid. I suspect there was a thematic reason for that decision, but its effects on gameplay were certainly interesting.
The pure ghost tank that is Dusclops is a strong argument for why Gengar had to be nerfed in the gen where Sp. Attack and Sp. Defense were the same thing.
One of the really interesting things about the ghosts in gen 1 is that in practice, the ones in the tower more or less didn't use their special stat for offense at all; they use defense as a dump stat because they were immune to the physical moves you were likely to have at the time, and they had great defenses against the types that were actually able to hit them. Combined with their movepools being limited to a weak physical move that causes paralysis, a fixed damage move, and confuse ray, in practice they were weirdly effective at being walls that chipped you to death and drained your resources during a long dungeon - if the psychic interaction worked properly, it would have meant that your best answer to them was still something that could reasonably be worn down by them, instead of the win button it ended up being
Bug as an archetype has shifted pretty drastically since Gen 1 where they were "bad late game, great early game". Now they're defined more by having some of the best individual moves and abilities in the game (outside of legendaries and starters) balanced by mediocre stat spreads and type interactions - these moves usually involve absurd amounts of boosting.
They also have a secondary archetypal niche as trappers and punishers - as well as just momentum control in general (look at every "Web/Thread/String" move and you'll notice the speed control/trapping pattern).
I always thought it was cool that Ghost and Dragon were such rare types in Gen 1-2, that each game introduced only one evolutionary line at the time. That made Gengar and Dragonite very special in gen 1, perhaps even more special than legendary birds.
I know that people like to trash on Agatha and Lance for their team having non-ghost/dragon type Pokémon, but even 9 years old me understood that these types are supposed to be so rare, that even trainers that specialises on them don't have team full of them and need to bring Pokémon that fits esthetically and thematically.
Yeah sure, Charizard and Gyarados look like dragons, but I think giving them dragon type would make Dragonite less unique
Golden Owl forgot the menace that is Shadow Rider Calyrex. 165 Special Attack + Astral Barrage + Grim Neigh is busted.
me going to check the video's release date because you were talking about halloween and you instantly saying it is delayed was the funniest thing to me
Love the reference of A Christmas Carol with the ghosts of past, present, and future. It's a great line!
The strongest type in history (ghost)
Versus
The strongest type of today (incineroar)
Ghosts vs. Fire-Shadoe Cats. 💀
I love the early PKMN characterization. If Dragons were supposed the strongest animal, ghost were supposed to be the strongest spiritual,kinda fitting the japanese view of Kami and shinto. It was one of the Boss Types, like Ice and Rock seemed to present themselves as. I like more the Toon style power as well, rather than only the serious aspect of Ghost.
To be fair, gen 1 Gengar wasn't that frail. Single special stat meant its special defense was sky high. And what were the physical types in gen 1?
Normal (immune), Fighting (immune), Poison (double resisted), Rock (i love missing moves), Ghost (20 bp kino), Bug (would actually have been neutral because poison and bug were mutually super effective back then, too bad it's the bug type), Flying and Ground.
So yeah unless you're packing Earthquake or Drill Peck you're not killing gen 1 Gengar easily especially with Dream Eater
I disagree with 12:00, even thought it might be because I play lastest gen competitive pokémon. When I think Ghost, I think generally specially offensive and fast pokémon, sometimes frail, sometimes with a good support movepool, so besides gengar, I think of Chandelure, Marshadow, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo, Spectrier, Polteageist, etc.
I'm pretty sure ghost types were always meant to be a tricky prankster archetype, all of the ghost types in gen 1's dungeon were only trying to inconvenience you without doing significant damage.
The type was all the defensive profile it needed, while it's higher speed means they would have more chances to inflict status onto you. Plus the anime also supports this with how the ghastly first appeared and all of them were just trying to prank the main cast.
I was waiting for the section of how Calyrex Shadow and Astral Barrage are broken, and was a bit disappointed how it never came.
I would like to see more videos like this for diferent relevant types in pokemon, like the 3 type starters, the psychic type, the dark, dragon amd fairy type for example.
The 3 starter types have already been made.
The rest will be gotten to. Eventually
Well.......haunter didn't actually fight kadabra in that episode......so it TECHNICALLY didn't lie 😅
I disagree that Gengar's stats were intentionally made to be bad to offset Ghost's power, though I certainly agree that Poison was purely a detriment. Instead, it was given power to fulfil the ghost trope/fantasy. Gengar was weak to only Ground and Psychic. However, it has 130 Special so it can somewhat tank Psychic attacks. Since Gengar is immune to Normal and Fighting, though, its low DEF hurts it less than it normally would. Its high speed allows it to make use of the status inducing moves that are fitting for a ghost to use, before an opponent could make a move - ambushing and surprising the enemy pokemon, if you will, and leaving them confused or asleep, or paralyzed via Lick, possibly unable to do anything - and I think there are several TMs it can also use to make use of its high Special and Speed to one-shot enemy teams (since the AI doesn't have EVs).
No mention of the removal of pursuit in gen 8? That was a huge buff to many ghosts and psychics in competitive
Immunity to being trapped could've been mentioned somehow
Given how all of her Pokémon shared the Poison type, I have more of a mind to call Agatha a Poison specialist rather than a Ghost specialist. 😅
13:05 I would’ve probably have had Ghost and Dragon trade places.
You know, given how we got a part Ghost starter in Alola, Hisui, and Paldea. I do hope that Game Freak takes a break from using Ghost as a secondary type for starters along with Dark and Fighting.
Something it looks like you didn't consider is what Gengar's movepool actually does have. In a game where non-Normal moves are rare, and if you get them it's probably just whatever your type is, Gengar's movepool is absurd. It gets Dream Eater by level to go with it's Hypnosis, your pick of Thunderbolt or Thunder, Psychic if you don't want to bother with Hypnosis, Mega Drain if you think Grass moves are any good when you can have Electric for some reason... The only Pokemon that I can think of that tops this movepool is Nidoking, and all the good moves actually go with it's stats, unlike something like Hitmonchan, which has a good set of moves that it can't actually use because of it's low Special. If Gengar was made a fast special attacker because of how strong Ghost makes it, then they messed up by giving it access to a bunch of moves that make it really really good at being a fast special attacker anyway. With that Special stat, Psychic and Thunderbolt don't actually NEED STAB to be great!
I wouldn't say they messed up. The entire discussion was about casual playthrough by an untrained player, and it works decently well for it.
@zivronen9539 Is the implication that an untrained player isn't going to see what on their team can learn new TMs...? I can easily see a new player getting Gastly because "This thing isn't hurt by a bunch of my attacks, I want one," then just sorta trying TMs on it and stumbling into teaching it Psychic. Gastly might actually be the second most accessible Psychic user before the gift Lapras, behind Butterfree. Everything else is rare or off the beaten path.
@@wildwolf8505 A newbie isn't necessarily going to save up their TMs to use optimally, so they may spend psychic on their Drowzee or teach thunderbolt to one of the many other Pokemon that can learn it.
This is the sort of thing you'd get rewarded for playing smart and stumbling upon it. You just happened to save your TMs and just happened to stick it out training a Ghastly. Gengar being a lot less useful without a bit of investment is more or less what they were going for.
Still waiting for that Ice-Type video.
17:44
That had me laughing.
Always have to pick the *type* that is Super Effective.
Good thing GameFreak moved on to test for damage roll comparison between moves as well in gen 2.
Ghost was supposed and is still the type that's “Hard to hit” . It packs only 2 weaknesess and 2 immunes. They just stand there and either wittle you down actively or passively.
Ghost is my second favorite type. Only beat by Poison. I would love a type video focused on the poison type it’s the only one that excels at damage over time.
Fellow poison type favorite type for once!!!
33:39 Bro forgot Will-o-wisp + Hex is a 130 BP Special Ghost move
I think Ghost coverage is way too powerful nowadays. I think Pokemon could use a extra ghost resist.
15:12 This is a very poor example. Melee doesnt run on the same engine at all. The devs saved no resources/time when building new and old characters. Gamers over estimate how many resources drafting/designing takes VS actually implementing assets into the game.
A waaaay better example is Smash 4 and Ultimate. Ultimate reuses almost every character model from the previous entry, allowing them to make a massive roster .
Secondly, going back to Pokemon and "archetypes" theory... Kingler. A physical Water type. There was no pattern or meticulous sense involved. They just gave stats that felt "right" for the design without considering balance. Devs like Sakurai (going back to Smash) admitted to doing stuff like that during the early entries (like giving Link poor recovery because "he cant jump in his own series" even though that doesnt fit his kit design like his in a fighting game like Smash)
what an amazing video, they always trying to keep my boy Gengar down
If we recall the buffs Ghosts received in Gen 9:
• Flutter Mane
• Rage Fist
• Last Respects
• Gholdengo
• One of the best starters (Skeledirge), and one of the few bulky ghost types
Basculegion with Last Respects was an Uber breaking threat and in Gen 9 Nat Dex Uber Mega Gengar was immediately banned to AG when Gengar received encore this gen. And even Calyrex Shadow Rider was banned from Uber but that was Tera's fault though ...
Why did just one type receive such huge buffs in one generation??¿
I don't think Ghost was meant to be the defensive bastion you claim it to be. The flavor text in Sabrina's gym isn't advertising Ghost-types as the defensive answer to Psychics: It's advertising the Psychic types as one only beatable by Ghosts. The flavor text in Lavender, for example, highlights them not as impenetrable or bulky, but as tricky, illusory, and mentally taxing. My prototypical Ghost mon would be high SpAtk, high Spd, low HP and low Def, not the bulky wall you described.
Haunter Supremacy! He's my favorite :D
The first third of this video is a complete rollercoaster:
> What is THE Ghost, the first you think of
Well the first I think of is Shuppet. He was my first Card ever, which was long before I ever got to play any of the games. (I guess that makes Shuppet my Starter???)
> How would you design the quintessential ghost for gen 1's limitations
Well, I'd want high attack like Banette to take advantage of Ghost being physical in that gen
> You'd probably go for something like how Dusclops or Banette are designed
I LITERALLY PUMPED MY FIST IN THE AIR AND CHEERED SLKDJFGLKSJDHLKFJDGHLKDJLK
If Kalos did have a Ghost-type gym leader, their ace would have to be a Mega Gengar.
Gengar the OG Shedinja
16:35 I can't agree with that.
For one thing their only STAB Ghost move was Lick, and I want to believe the designers weren't expecting the player to use that move as their only offensive Ghost move.
There's also the matter of their typing. The Poison-type feels like a strange inclusion on all levels. They dont even make mention of being poisonous in their dex entries, only Gastly being made of a "gas". It seems more likely to me that the designers wanted the Ghost type to be immune to the poisoned condition (lacking physical bodies?) but couldnt do it without adding the type. Since back then types were immune to the effects of moves of their own type, rather than flat out immune.
There's simply not enough information to suggest the Ghost-type was under devloped rather than intentionally nerfed, especially since a Gengar without the Poison-type wasn't all that dangerous to the Psychic-type to begin with, even if it could do SE damage.
I remember taking a long time to figure out why I couldn't hurt Morty's Pokémon back in Gold,which was my first Pokémon game.
Will there be a dragon type video before the year of the dragon ends?
Damn. Now I wished I started this series last year so I could catch the Year of the Dragon…
@@GoldenOwl_Game well I hope you don't consider taking 12 years to rectify that.
Anyways, love your videos
@@GoldenOwl_Gamenext year is for the snake, so it still kinda fits
@@rafaelzamudio354 Close enough I guess
idk, i think steel and fairy are better overall in both singles and doubles, though ghosts are consistently strong
This channel specifically goes over to Pokemon's individual assets and how they work in the context of game design.
I'd actually wager that Ground has historically been the best type. Access to a wide array of offensive and defensive benefits, the single best STAB move in the game in terms of coverage, a lot of generally good stay distribution across the board.
Ghost should resist steel
I don’t know, what is the most common offensive Tera type?
@@dawsonmoore2496 it depends, a lot of offensive tera types either use the mons stab type for extra damage or uses a coverage type to hit over mons that resists it, though tera normal espeed is pretty popular
THIS WAS COOL
But really, awesome analysis, loved the video!
Will O Wisp is fire type to make Normal Pokemon vulnerable to it, plus flash Fire Pokemon get the boost
I though status moves tended to be ignored by the type chart, for non ability type immunity, unless if the move sub category that gets affected (sound, powder moves, etc.)
@@KimFareseed Some of them are, some arent
@@lordinfernape4753 Most status moves do in fact ignore type immunities. The only exceptions are Glare (for some reason) and Thunder Wave (probably because in most games it's a TM or a Move Tutor, and 100% accurate paralysis causing move at the time, and paralysis not only killed your speed, but made it so sometimes you just didn't move at all, to the point that G7 nerfed paralysis by making speed penalty only 50% instead of 75% and make TWave somewhat inaccurate). They do not ignore Ability based immunities, though (except Sand-Attack, which can still hit Levitaters).
I would say that the Bug typing's archetype is less like Caterpie & Weedle, & moreso like Beedrill, Scyther, Pinsir, Ledyba, Volbeet, Venipede, and Ninjask. They reallly like to drastically boost their stats with things like Speed Boost, Swords Dance, Tail Glow, Agility, Quiver Dance, etc. to compensate for their often weak defensive profile & poor STAB coverage. The early Bug archetype is certainly a thing just like the early Normal-rodents, but in terms of how the bulk of Bugs function in Pokemon, I wouldn't be terribly shocked to encounter say, a Swords Dancer.
That's an interesting way to see how Bugs were back then. And to add on to it, there's even String Shot, that didnt boost Bug Pokemon stats, but reduced the opponent's, which indirectly makes them better.
The way I see it, Bug types lack strong fundamentals (stats, type matchups) but try and make up for it with their moves (Bpunch Scizor, U-Turn, Quiver Dance, First Impression)
Ghost Trick reference spotted, like added
Cool video, just leaving this comment for the algorithm
21:38 Ice could fit pretty well too
I know this isn't actually to do with the ghost type; but gen 1 Gengar was good because of its amazing coverage. Just completely ignore ghost and poison moves and slap Psychic, Hypnosis, and two of Dream Eater, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, any special move you want really. And now you have a pokemon that can put the enemy to sleep at the speed of light, hit supereffectively or neutrally against literally any pokemon with its high Special, potentially heal itself, completely wall Hyper Beam, and even be reasonably defensive against most special attacks due to how the Special stat works.
Great video. What would we do without you?
Flutter Mane fans rise up!!!
Also, for the dark type video I'm curious if you got anything to say about how dark's offensive presence
is the exact same as ghost's besides dark being able to hit normal and fairy and fighitng not resisting ghost.
Offensive presence is actually only half of the Dark Type's core identity. And that mostly stems from most early Dark Types actually having offensive-leaning stat spreads compared to Ghosts, which leaned defensively.
However, that is still only half. The other half is a lot less noticed, though arguably more consistent. Hint: Look at all Dark moves (especially the non-damaging ones) and you'll start to notice a clear trend.
@@GoldenOwl_Game
Dark tends to fight "dirty."
Preventing item usage with Embargo, if not outright removing your held item with Thief or Knock Off.
Preventing consecutive usage of the same move with Torment, stops status move useage with Taunt, or prevent switching with Imprisson.
Ignoring the action priority order with Sucker Punch on attacks, or Pursuit on switchout.
Or using the opponents strength against them with Foul Play.
I could go on... but then we reach Dark type moves I have no experience with.
@@GoldenOwl_Game Gonna look into it right away 👀
Just imagine pure ghost pokemon with 2 hp,100 attack, 225 defense and some special, what brutally destroy whole universe with 20 BP lick :)
I would like a video about gen 1 fighting tipe. Just saying. I liked this one too!
Ghostrick AND TF2? Nice
Here for thumbnail.
Fairy is 100% considered the best type for a reason
Ghost is up there but not close
Steel is much better then Fairy. Water too. Also typing is not what makes the Pokemon good. Please do not spout nonsense.
@Goldeneye3336 bro im a competitive player, i know this already, alot more than typing goes into it
Im saying fairy is CONSIDERED the bssr type, not that its universal or objective
Fairy would be the strongest type of Today
@@GoldenOwl_Game fair
@@enzoforgets9456 Being a competitive player does not mean shit to me. You can play very casually competitive games. Doesn't make you knowledgeable. Steel is stronger into Fairy. That's not a debate.
Still crazy that half of the gen 1 dex is lumped with only normal moves. You're pronpted to make your iwb unique team, only to realize that most of the mons play exactly the same, with very few exceptions.
That's the point of TMs....
It makes sense when you look at other RPGs from the time. The idea is that the Normal the moves were the "basic" attacks that had lower damage but could be used more often, and the Typed-moves were the "special" abilities that were more powerful but can only be used sparingly.
Oh sure. That must be why half the dex hardly learns any of them. Like Scyther, or Vileplume.@@TheDeathmail
@josephbulkin9222 Vileplume is a Stone Evolution that isn't Eevee, so it doesn't get some of Gloom's level up moves. Petal Dance is exclusive to Gloom's level up list in Gen 1, which is the best Power Grass move unless Razor Leaf always crits for you.
All i can see is that game freak has been after my boy gengar since gen 1. Culminating in their most blatant attack against him to date, replacing levitate with curse body. What kinda jackass gives a *glass cannon* a skill that activates upon being hit? A spiteful one i assure you.
Maybe i am wrong but for what i remember the deal with Ghosts in Gen 1 was that the Gengar line was Ghost/Poison, and therefore naturally weak to psychic, and the only Ghost damaging move in Gen 1 been Lick a Physical move with 30 Power.
No glitch in this ocassion, just poor choice of type and a lackluster move
There was indeed a glitch; even if Ghosts had a better damaging move, it wouldn't have helped against Psychic types because Psychic was unintentionally immune to Ghost in gen 1.
@Milesprowerthegamer good to have confirmation. Like i said i didnt remember exactly, but i did read somewhere like years ago, that some of the quirkest features of Gen 1 came not much from glitches but from unnintended mechanics. Like making the only ghost types part poison.
@@Milesprowerthegamer Technically, it was immune to lick, not ghost.... but since it was literally the only move anyways, it didn't matter....
@@TheDeathmail Nah, just to not spread misinformation, Psychic was completely immune to ghost type, it's just that Night Shade, the other ghost type move, was a fixed-damage move, moves which in Gen 1 completely ignored the type chart (for example, fighting-type Seismic Toss can hurt ghost type, even though Ghost as a type is immune to Fighting).
You think Dusknoir got shafted? Must have never seen Froslass ,then. 80 attack and Special attack can hardly put a dent in anything.
You're missing the fact that a lot of its stats was allocated to speed. Froslass wasn't made to be a sweeper, it was made to do...whatever speedy pokemon do like Electrode and Deoxys-Speed.
Fortunately, it was introduced at the right time. Gen IV put great emphasis on the lead metagame so Froslass being a fast Spiker that you couldn't use rapid spin against was a huge boon. With a Focus Sash, you could set up at least two layers of spikes before dying.
That was just the surface level though, turns out JUST being fast is a huge benefit because you can do more annoying things like using Destiny Bond or Thunder Wave making it a pretty clean 1-for-1 trade. Then it gets even...weirder. Bulky sets using Substitute and Pain Split to wear down their opponents. A BULKY set with those defenses, once again only enabled by its high speed. This is actually a common archetype that other ghost types like Mismagius, Gengar, and Sableye (because of Prankster) often utilize, but I'm not entirely sure whether Game Freak intended it :/.
@kyklous3657 Spikes? You mean a move it doesnt naturally learn? Sure, that was DEFINITELY the way it was meant to be used. Dusknoir at least has the Attack and Defenses to sustain itself.
@josephbulkin9222 You misunderstood. My point ended with the first paragraph: it does speedy pokemon things. The paragraphs after are just me showing how it has ACTUALLY been used in competitive pokemon regardless of the devs' intent hence the last statement.
@@kyklous3657 I wouldn't know anything about online multiplayer, so...
What if Froslass got a little bit more special attack (like 95) and nasty plot? It's actually surprising that Froslass already doesn't get nasty plot but it might be for balance reasons (ghost type moves not being resisted by many types and to prevent fast blizzard spam in double battles). This comment is also meant for the competitive player who replied to you but he probably won't see this as I replied to only you.
It should be noted that in Gen 1, Ghost was SUPPOSED to be super effective against Psychic, but the move Lick (the only damage dealing ghost move) had an error that made it do no damage against psychic....
So it wasn't that psychic was immune to ghost, just the move lick....
No, actually it's kind of the other way around. Lick works as intended, sticking to the type chart (we have decompilations of RBY, the move works fine). The other ghost move, Night Shade, can hit Psychic types BECAUSE it's a fixed-damage move, which in Gen 1 completely ignore the type chart. Case in point, it can also hurt normal types that should be immune to it, and the same thing happens with Seismic Toss, a fixed-damage fighting type move that shouldn't be able to hit ghosts, but does anyways.
Maybe it's just me, but I disagree when it comes to thinking what a ghost archetype is. When I think of a ghost the first thing that comes to mind is something frail, but fast with a lot of offense.
32:56 Ah, a fellow PMD fan. Do you have any interest in discussing those games at some point?
If there’s an interesting subject to talk about, I’m not opposed to it.
The odd thing about PMD is that nobody really cares about the game itself - they are heavily story driven, which is unusual for a Pokemon game
@@GoldenOwl_Game That's fair. Music and character writing(I still can't believe some of those Special Episodes are optional) might not be as straightforward to talk about. Beyond that, I guess there could be something about character creation, because making the player taking an entire personality quiz isn't something I see every day.
Psychic was actually more powerful in Gen 1, due to coding errors.
Coding errors + a stat system that treated Special as both an offensive and defensive stat, a great damaging move with a high chance of further lowering the Special of the opponent, and frankly lack of foresight by making Psychic only be resisted by itself. So, similarly to how in theory the best way to take down a ghost was with other ghosts, the best way to stop a Psychic type is with another Psychic type.
Agatha wasn't a Ghost-type trainer. She was a Poison-type trainer.
She was definitely meant to be ghost. Her battlefield is in a graveyward and her name is "agatha" which sounds similarly to "aghast". The only reason she doesnt have more ghost pokemons was because of gen 1 limitation of having only the ghastly line. On that note, Lance was a dragon trainer with 3 flying types. Does that mean he's flying?
@@kienmaple your phrasing makes no sense. Review your grammar ffs.
@@Goldeneye3336 nah the grammar was fine. Maybe you just couldn't comprehend compound sentences.
Except for Pokemon Stadium. Where they gave her a Venusaur to emphasize the poison aspect.
Obviously she is meant to focus on Ghost, but she just so happened to have "Poison Expert" tacked onto her because lol gen ghosts
@@tonberry2670 Pokemon stadium was still gen 1-2, where there weren't a lot of good ghost types.
they should make a ghost legendary thats immune to all physical attacks
Gengars stats and stabs do not match but that is good design because gengar is still a solid ou pokemon in the first few generations. every pokemon needs some weakness.
Am I the only one who thinks it is far beyond insane that ghost type was registered as physical in generation one. Please tell me I am not alone that literally doesn't make sense.
😃
Just punch them really fast! As fast as a bullet,
And don't you fuckin' forget it
At what point in the design stage do you say “maybe we should give pokemon more non-normal type moves” instead of nerfing the sole ghost type 🤦🏽♂️
Edit: lol apparently the answer according to the video is “gen 3” 💀
Gen 3 was pretty much the point when they decided to actually let Pokemon have fun toys instead of just normal moves