I think that most people don't really care about what WP Engine has done, it is the actions of the Leardership of an Open Source Software which has got them thinking, if they will be the next target (directly or indirectly)
Let's take the "WordPress hosting/developer" and apply it to other cases, when someone says "Linux hosting/Linux developer", does anyone really believe they are owned by/work for Linus? 😄 If I say I'm a Google Analytics/Adwords expert... do people really think I work for Google?
WP Engine are not angels, but when Matt's actions directly impacted WP Engine's customers, users who are also part of the WordPress community, he stepped over the line.
There are a lot of nuances here. For example Matt was an early investor in WPEngine and therefore he knew of and sanctioned their name. Since he profited from their usage of the name by later selling his shares to Silver Lake, he will have a hard time arguing his case here in terms of copyright infringement. I also doubt that he has sent them cease and desist letters prior to this.
It's a bit more nuanced than that. ACF is open source, so forking it is legal. Misappropriating their directory listing, redirecting traffic to your fork, replacing their customers versions with your own without these customers explicit agreement - these things are IMO definitely immoral and IMO quite likely to be illegal.
I have no idea re the legalities, but I do struggle to see Matt's point. Who was confused by wp engine? It's all a big shame because I think Matt is an amazingly inspirational guy and wordpress has been such an amazing project for the past 20+ years.
I get the tipping point, BUT....how much is Automattic tipping to the PHP Foundation, Linux, ... all the open source they build WP on/with...no he gives 8% to his own product, which benefits him. With same logic: since Automattic benefits from the free labor of contributors...why don't they kick back to those people?
WordPress has the majority market position in the CMS space, and to me this looks very like anti-competitive behaviour from a company that dominates their marketplace, and effectively restraint of trade by Wordpress who are singling out and attacking and discriminating against a competitor to extort money for a service they provide for free to the rest of the world. IMO this is very likely to be illegal. Taking over the ACF plugin directory listing is also likely to be illegal for similar reasons if not also for misappropriation.
Apart from trademark violation, I don't see Automattic could do any harm to WP Engine as far as the deployment of WordPress hosting goes. Matt shouldn't have made it open source in the first place if he wanted royalty for it.
Would be a nice prank to rename themselves Secure Engine next April. WP Engine is far from being the nicest guy around but the Foundation is way overstepping opensource boundaries.
As a developer now it's a red flag to work on WP plugins. There is an incalculable risk doing so... it is very similar to the Russian sanctions from USA and no wonder the BRICS alliance and other countries want to drop the US Dollar asap.
I'm not a fan of private equity-owned businesses or businesses that use open source software to build their business on and don't contribute significantly into that software. But that is a fair use of open source work in many cases. Re: trademark, I think they could have been more careful. But it should have been a C&D before extortion attempt.
I find the way that the Wordpress TM had been monopolized to be immoral and possibly wrong in law if that TM is also the name of a freely available open source software. If Automatic had created their own brand (e.g. AutoWordpress) and WP engine had used that fair enough, but when you use free and open source software called Wordpress and advertise that you do so that it's IMO Fair-Use, and I have a feeling that courts will in the end agree.
My question is, if I download WordPress and change everything except 1% of it's code. Do you still call it WordPress? So when WPE is making changes to the pure core they should not call it WordPress anymore. Because it is modified already and made it their version of WordPress. There is no issue if you take WordPress and make yours and make changes, but technically the moment you make changes to it's core it's no longer from WordPress or is WordPress because you changed it. So Matt has a point here. But the way matt chosen to handle this situation good? I don't think so. For Everyone: WordPress is no longer a just piece of software. It's the community behind it makes it great! You can fork WordPress but not the community behind it... No one is going anywhere. I remember when WhatsApp sent a notification they are now sharing data with meta ads. Everyone said will switch from WhatsApp to some other platform. But end of the day everyone is still on WhatsApp same thing happening here.
Branding limits are typically defined in the license. Also there will be a ton of case law about how similar something needs to be to retain the name e.g. highly modified Cadillacs, customised clothing etc. If I take a Cadillac and change the radio aerial it is still a Cadillac; if I replace everything except the aerial it isn't - I just put a Caddie aerial on a different car.
@@websquadron you are right, I said that listening to you compared to others, I've been using since 2020, for my website and hundreds of local website till this days, and I would have never and never guessed that WP Engine is not affiliated with WordPress. Everyone talk about WordPress being popular, but what they don't about that popularity is that WordPress is that platform where you can buy a 35$ hosting a year and spin it up and built a website for a local business or blog and more, that's what makes WordPress popular. And the same WordPress, WP Engine litteraly have plans that you can 2000$ per month for, that's outrageous. When I discover that this issue was going on the background, I realized that, it would have never been public if the WordPress owner didn't make a drastic Move. WP Engine would have been there just playing of the fact that WordPress is open source, but then the problem of pourcentage comes out and everyone start to insult the owner when clearly it was a background issue that was going nowhere until that happens. I believe that WP Engine is very very much guilty in this situation because, why did they open up publicly about it after the percentage issue comes out, why not before that. It's like they are using the public to save themselves. I believe that even if the percentage was a lot, WP Engine if they want to contribute, they would have kept discussing in the background and negotiate for a better offer with the guy.
WP code is free, open source, licensed under GPL. And yet, developers have been allowed to make shed loads of money out of it. When you purchase a "pro" commercial plugin, you don't actually buy the plugin. That would be contrary to the license. Instead you are paying for services connected with the plugin - like automatic downloads and "support". It's a ruse which Automatic have allowed to proliferate to the point where the market is now like the wild west. Have Automatic ever tried to stamp down on this activity? Have Automatic ever made sure that the companies who are using their license to make a profit actually deliver the "support" they are charging for? It seems to me that the only crime WPEngine have committed is making a healthy profit. Now Automatic appear to want to cherry pick the rules long after the horse has bolted.
This rampage started when Matt tried to undermine a way to bring Heather Brunner CEO of WPE over to Automatic. You can find out more @Theo channel. It is nothing more than a disgrunted childish temper tamper, a childish adult not getting his way.
Another way to look at is a store across the road from an Apple store that has Apple/iPhone logos in their shop window and they have banners that say 'iPhone Cases'. It's a descriptive use of the brand, and isn't claiming to be owned by Apple or iPhone. Some will get confused but as long as they don't state that they are the official iPhone Case, then the descriptive basis should be okay. I hope that analogy helps.
@@websquadron still not a great analogy. there’s not a single Wordpress logo on the homepage of the WP Engine website. So take the Apple and iPhone logos out of the window in your analogy and just put up a banner that says “iPhone Cases” would be a more accurate analogy.
@@davidklotz11 I completely agree. I was just making the point that even if they had the logos, they'd still be okay to show as they're not claiming to be Apple/etc.
@@websquadron But I believe this analogy can't be used here. It is like McDonald offer free recopies and cheap priced ingredients. Now their neighboring restaurant utilize these offerings and sell a successful product while mentioning McDonald in their Marketing campaign I think it can't be against trademark. Anyway being a developer I personally hate WPE for all the limits it apply and their money hopping tactics but still Matt has done a lot of damage to WordPress and open source spirit in general.
So WPEngine take Wordpress and Fork or alter it for free and then profit off it. Automatic takes ACF and Forks it and lets people use it for free. I don't see how one is fine and the other isn't.
I hear you. Aren't WPE supplying a white-labelled version of WP as other agencies may do? The manner that the ACF takeover occurred was a little sudden.
@@websquadron So I am deeply ingrained in the Open Source Moodle World which is very much similar to the WP ecosystem. There is an expectation that larger companies give a %age back to Moodle Core and if a company wants to use the Moodle name, Brand and official partner status they have to pay a flat 10% pre-tax to the moodle project. That is most of the big Moodle Develop Houses which are smaller in comparison to WPE. Thats the way I feel it should go in the WP sphere also
A hostile take over is not forking. A fork is by most considered a new slug and listing, different from the original. Automatic went and took over the original plugin and replaced it with their version.
A8C wants to cut the freedom of WPEngine to do with WordPress what they want, that is against GPL principles. As long as WPE is transparant about the modifications when they distribute it, it is allowed. A8C has no say in how WordPress is used.
@@KieranBriggs now imagine if the 10% flat fee hadn't been applied and then one day, they come along and say - we've decided now that even though we've been fine with how you've used the name in your marketing and we had no problem when we were shareholders in your company, but decided to sell those shares and now we really are not happy that you're successful and making lots of money - now, give me 10% or we'll cut you off and steal your sweets while we're at it. That's kinda whats happening here. If there had been a legal precedence set or have a set amount of money or developer hours to contribute BEFORE WPE was set up, then that would be a different story. But, that's not what's happened. If the stand against trademark infringement was being applied fairly, it would applied to all companies that have or are using a similar marketing approach, then that would also provide a more fair (although, still a bit crazy) scenario. But, to single out one company (no matter how bad they may be), is somewhat unjust and obviously personal. Do I agree with WPE or how they give so little back? No, I think they could do an awful lot more and should give more back. The crux is that there is no legal obligation or defined minimum requirement in place to set a benchmark for companies to adhere to. On top of that, Matt chose the Open Source GPL license model which has no requirement to provide ANY financial or time based payback for its use. It sucks when that gets used and abused, but there will always be more takers than givers and if that is an issue, then an alternative licensing model should be used to avoid this in the future.
I think it is important that WP engine should pay their share to support in wp development as per the news that it was mentioned that they agreed to pay, their business is based on this software so it is only fare to do so, but the way it is escalated was wrong 2 wrongs don't make either side right and the end users was affected with that issue, as acf is an important tool set, anyways what is better alternative to wp as an cms?
And what off I think that YOU aren't voluntarily giving as much to charity or of your income as I think you should? Does that give me the right to discriminate against you? This is very dodgy moral thinking.
@@websquadron That's for the courts to decide. I'm not claiming to know. WPEngine is happy to let everyone assume whatever they want, but the fact remains that the trademark was in dispute for a long time before the public was made aware. That doesn't mean I agree with MM tactics or behavior because I dont. He handled this poorly to a level I cannot fathom. Thanks for a great video.
@@Ahmadtayyem It's been going on behind the scenes for years and is only public now. MM made an ultimatum (stupidly) and backed it up so it all became public after then.
I think that most people don't really care about what WP Engine has done, it is the actions of the Leardership of an Open Source Software which has got them thinking, if they will be the next target (directly or indirectly)
Let's take the "WordPress hosting/developer" and apply it to other cases, when someone says "Linux hosting/Linux developer", does anyone really believe they are owned by/work for Linus? 😄 If I say I'm a Google Analytics/Adwords expert... do people really think I work for Google?
WP Engine are not angels, but when Matt's actions directly impacted WP Engine's customers, users who are also part of the WordPress community, he stepped over the line.
There are a lot of nuances here. For example Matt was an early investor in WPEngine and therefore he knew of and sanctioned their name. Since he profited from their usage of the name by later selling his shares to Silver Lake, he will have a hard time arguing his case here in terms of copyright infringement. I also doubt that he has sent them cease and desist letters prior to this.
Its good to be informed about this issue. Keep up the good work!
ACF now be stolen by Automattic and released as SCF (Secure Custom Fields) is just a complete failure for the whole WP ecosystem.
It's a bit more nuanced than that. ACF is open source, so forking it is legal. Misappropriating their directory listing, redirecting traffic to your fork, replacing their customers versions with your own without these customers explicit agreement - these things are IMO definitely immoral and IMO quite likely to be illegal.
I have no idea re the legalities, but I do struggle to see Matt's point. Who was confused by wp engine? It's all a big shame because I think Matt is an amazingly inspirational guy and wordpress has been such an amazing project for the past 20+ years.
I get the tipping point, BUT....how much is Automattic tipping to the PHP Foundation, Linux, ... all the open source they build WP on/with...no he gives 8% to his own product, which benefits him. With same logic: since Automattic benefits from the free labor of contributors...why don't they kick back to those people?
You don’t need to mention php, wordpress itself is forked from B2
Cafe log@@Ahmadtayyem
WordPress has the majority market position in the CMS space, and to me this looks very like anti-competitive behaviour from a company that dominates their marketplace, and effectively restraint of trade by Wordpress who are singling out and attacking and discriminating against a competitor to extort money for a service they provide for free to the rest of the world. IMO this is very likely to be illegal.
Taking over the ACF plugin directory listing is also likely to be illegal for similar reasons if not also for misappropriation.
Still heard from the supposed "victims", the WPE clients who would be the ones complaining by what WPE did, I see them complaining about Matt.
Apart from trademark violation, I don't see Automattic could do any harm to WP Engine as far as the deployment of WordPress hosting goes. Matt shouldn't have made it open source in the first place if he wanted royalty for it.
Would be a nice prank to rename themselves Secure Engine next April. WP Engine is far from being the nicest guy around but the Foundation is way overstepping opensource boundaries.
As a developer now it's a red flag to work on WP plugins. There is an incalculable risk doing so... it is very similar to the Russian sanctions from USA and no wonder the BRICS alliance and other countries want to drop the US Dollar asap.
We're gonna hire you as spokesperson of the UN
I just ironed my tie.
Thnx Kermit for the open view reflection!
Keep it up, this brawl is not enough reason to wrack WP or ACF/SCF
THNX
I'm not a fan of private equity-owned businesses or businesses that use open source software to build their business on and don't contribute significantly into that software. But that is a fair use of open source work in many cases.
Re: trademark, I think they could have been more careful. But it should have been a C&D before extortion attempt.
I find the way that the Wordpress TM had been monopolized to be immoral and possibly wrong in law if that TM is also the name of a freely available open source software. If Automatic had created their own brand (e.g. AutoWordpress) and WP engine had used that fair enough, but when you use free and open source software called Wordpress and advertise that you do so that it's IMO Fair-Use, and I have a feeling that courts will in the end agree.
Well done dude .... the only balanced reaction I've seen 🏆
Loved your giving "real world" examples
I had to think about those examples.
Why is it ok for loads of plugin developers to use WP in their commercial products but bad if WP Engine do it?
Agreed
love the Pac Man thumbnail ♥
😉
There seems to be something wrong with your audio on the last few videos it's just a bit out of sync with the video.
I have noticed that too. It's some editing issue that I need to sort out.
Thanks for sharing your voice on this topic. RUclips is full of anti wordpress videos because of this... thanks for showing a different point of view
My question is, if I download WordPress and change everything except 1% of it's code. Do you still call it WordPress? So when WPE is making changes to the pure core they should not call it WordPress anymore. Because it is modified already and made it their version of WordPress.
There is no issue if you take WordPress and make yours and make changes, but technically the moment you make changes to it's core it's no longer from WordPress or is WordPress because you changed it. So Matt has a point here.
But the way matt chosen to handle this situation good? I don't think so.
For Everyone: WordPress is no longer a just piece of software. It's the community behind it makes it great!
You can fork WordPress but not the community behind it...
No one is going anywhere. I remember when WhatsApp sent a notification they are now sharing data with meta ads. Everyone said will switch from WhatsApp to some other platform. But end of the day everyone is still on WhatsApp same thing happening here.
Branding limits are typically defined in the license. Also there will be a ton of case law about how similar something needs to be to retain the name e.g. highly modified Cadillacs, customised clothing etc. If I take a Cadillac and change the radio aerial it is still a Cadillac; if I replace everything except the aerial it isn't - I just put a Caddie aerial on a different car.
Why are people are just thinking that WP Engine is or should be innocent?
Many sides to this coin and I've tried to be objective from both sides here :)
@@websquadron you are right, I said that listening to you compared to others, I've been using since 2020, for my website and hundreds of local website till this days, and I would have never and never guessed that WP Engine is not affiliated with WordPress.
Everyone talk about WordPress being popular, but what they don't about that popularity is that WordPress is that platform where you can buy a 35$ hosting a year and spin it up and built a website for a local business or blog and more, that's what makes WordPress popular. And the same WordPress, WP Engine litteraly have plans that you can 2000$ per month for, that's outrageous.
When I discover that this issue was going on the background, I realized that, it would have never been public if the WordPress owner didn't make a drastic Move. WP Engine would have been there just playing of the fact that WordPress is open source, but then the problem of pourcentage comes out and everyone start to insult the owner when clearly it was a background issue that was going nowhere until that happens.
I believe that WP Engine is very very much guilty in this situation because, why did they open up publicly about it after the percentage issue comes out, why not before that. It's like they are using the public to save themselves.
I believe that even if the percentage was a lot, WP Engine if they want to contribute, they would have kept discussing in the background and negotiate for a better offer with the guy.
WP code is free, open source, licensed under GPL. And yet, developers have been allowed to make shed loads of money out of it. When you purchase a "pro" commercial plugin, you don't actually buy the plugin. That would be contrary to the license. Instead you are paying for services connected with the plugin - like automatic downloads and "support". It's a ruse which Automatic have allowed to proliferate to the point where the market is now like the wild west. Have Automatic ever tried to stamp down on this activity? Have Automatic ever made sure that the companies who are using their license to make a profit actually deliver the "support" they are charging for?
It seems to me that the only crime WPEngine have committed is making a healthy profit. Now Automatic appear to want to cherry pick the rules long after the horse has bolted.
Good points.
This rampage started when Matt tried to undermine a way to bring Heather Brunner CEO of WPE over to Automatic. You can find out more @Theo channel. It is nothing more than a disgrunted childish temper tamper, a childish adult not getting his way.
You're a gentleman, sir.
Is this similar to what’s happening with Festinger Vault?
what happened there?
1:02 .. you mean like McDowell 😂
You lost me at the first analogy.
Another way to look at is a store across the road from an Apple store that has Apple/iPhone logos in their shop window and they have banners that say 'iPhone Cases'.
It's a descriptive use of the brand, and isn't claiming to be owned by Apple or iPhone. Some will get confused but as long as they don't state that they are the official iPhone Case, then the descriptive basis should be okay.
I hope that analogy helps.
@@websquadron still not a great analogy. there’s not a single Wordpress logo on the homepage of the WP Engine website. So take the Apple and iPhone logos out of the window in your analogy and just put up a banner that says “iPhone Cases” would be a more accurate analogy.
@@davidklotz11 I completely agree. I was just making the point that even if they had the logos, they'd still be okay to show as they're not claiming to be Apple/etc.
I stopped your video at 1:10 when you gave the example of McDonald in current scenario. Open source can't be compared to a commercial business.
It’s an analogy.
Take care.
@@websquadron But I believe this analogy can't be used here. It is like McDonald offer free recopies and cheap priced ingredients. Now their neighboring restaurant utilize these offerings and sell a successful product while mentioning McDonald in their Marketing campaign I think it can't be against trademark. Anyway being a developer I personally hate WPE for all the limits it apply and their money hopping tactics but still Matt has done a lot of damage to WordPress and open source spirit in general.
@@websquadron It's an incorrect analogy. The recipe for a BigMac isn't open source.
So WPEngine take Wordpress and Fork or alter it for free and then profit off it. Automatic takes ACF and Forks it and lets people use it for free. I don't see how one is fine and the other isn't.
I hear you. Aren't WPE supplying a white-labelled version of WP as other agencies may do? The manner that the ACF takeover occurred was a little sudden.
@@websquadron So I am deeply ingrained in the Open Source Moodle World which is very much similar to the WP ecosystem. There is an expectation that larger companies give a %age back to Moodle Core and if a company wants to use the Moodle name, Brand and official partner status they have to pay a flat 10% pre-tax to the moodle project. That is most of the big Moodle Develop Houses which are smaller in comparison to WPE. Thats the way I feel it should go in the WP sphere also
A hostile take over is not forking. A fork is by most considered a new slug and listing, different from the original. Automatic went and took over the original plugin and replaced it with their version.
A8C wants to cut the freedom of WPEngine to do with WordPress what they want, that is against GPL principles. As long as WPE is transparant about the modifications when they distribute it, it is allowed. A8C has no say in how WordPress is used.
@@KieranBriggs now imagine if the 10% flat fee hadn't been applied and then one day, they come along and say - we've decided now that even though we've been fine with how you've used the name in your marketing and we had no problem when we were shareholders in your company, but decided to sell those shares and now we really are not happy that you're successful and making lots of money - now, give me 10% or we'll cut you off and steal your sweets while we're at it.
That's kinda whats happening here. If there had been a legal precedence set or have a set amount of money or developer hours to contribute BEFORE WPE was set up, then that would be a different story. But, that's not what's happened. If the stand against trademark infringement was being applied fairly, it would applied to all companies that have or are using a similar marketing approach, then that would also provide a more fair (although, still a bit crazy) scenario. But, to single out one company (no matter how bad they may be), is somewhat unjust and obviously personal.
Do I agree with WPE or how they give so little back? No, I think they could do an awful lot more and should give more back. The crux is that there is no legal obligation or defined minimum requirement in place to set a benchmark for companies to adhere to. On top of that, Matt chose the Open Source GPL license model which has no requirement to provide ANY financial or time based payback for its use.
It sucks when that gets used and abused, but there will always be more takers than givers and if that is an issue, then an alternative licensing model should be used to avoid this in the future.
I think it is important that WP engine should pay their share to support in wp development as per the news that it was mentioned that they agreed to pay, their business is based on this software so it is only fare to do so, but the way it is escalated was wrong 2 wrongs don't make either side right and the end users was affected with that issue, as acf is an important tool set, anyways what is better alternative to wp as an cms?
And what off I think that YOU aren't voluntarily giving as much to charity or of your income as I think you should? Does that give me the right to discriminate against you? This is very dodgy moral thinking.
WPEngine misused the trademark and had years to rectify the issue.
But was it descriptive use or did they claim to be part of A8C?
@@websquadron That's for the courts to decide. I'm not claiming to know. WPEngine is happy to let everyone assume whatever they want, but the fact remains that the trademark was in dispute for a long time before the public was made aware. That doesn't mean I agree with MM tactics or behavior because I dont. He handled this poorly to a level I cannot fathom. Thanks for a great video.
So why now?
@@Ahmadtayyem It's been going on behind the scenes for years and is only public now. MM made an ultimatum (stupidly) and backed it up so it all became public after then.
Is WP trademarked? If so, why do so many other plugin developers use it - like GiveWP?
Unbiased view? That's an oxymoron.... Everyone is biased, obviously.
Ok.