@JarrodsTech as a software developer I really really appreciate you having a dedicated section on Linux support. Little things like this make you the best laptop reviewer IMO
eh, his section is pretty... brief... Doesn't touch on the topic of drivers and the like. Quite a lot of his videos that showcase laptops that have Nvidia GPUs and their compatibility with Linux don't really go deeper into things like Wayland support, driver issues and so on and forth.
@@jamesbrendan5170 true but for that to happen there needs to be an audience to speak up saying they want more linux info, pretty sure nobody in his team knows much of linux too.. Otherwise we can still rely on info from places like reddit, and other such forums.
@@jamesbrendan5170You only care about wayland and stuff if using nvidia, because fuck nvidia and their proprietary shit. On the other hand things just works on amd parts, which is the exact path framework chose to go to support both OS
@@linhusp2349 hey I am not familiar on the low level stuff here, are you saying that amd has better support for linux because nvidia apparently has proprietary drivers?
Framework sent out an email yesterday saying they made a fix for the mid-plate flex. Some people have their laptop already and Framework will offer the parts for those who want it. Awesome video, your answered some questions I have about the laptop and it was a thorough review. Thanks!
@@BouncingZeus It's impressive to see how transparent they have been throughout this whole process. When things have gone wrong, they've let everyone know and done their best to fix it, whether it was their fault or a vendor's.
Yeah, I have a 16" on pre-order for the purpose of my work making RUclips videos and I have watched as Framework has tackled so many problems with their suppliers on power delivery, CPU heat, GPU drivers, firmware, etc. They have shown transparency and diligence in addressing ongoing issues which makes me confident they will continue to provide new and better features and expansions. The only piece missing is a 240W USB-C PD power supply as they recommend for their laptop when using the dGPU. I'm sure that they will have it as well though as soon as their supplier do. I also have to agree with the video that buying the Ryzen 9 isn't worth the money, since all benchmarks barely eek past the Ryzen 7.
@@jandjrandr That's awesome, I hope it serves you well. Elevated systems did a review on this laptop and used software to edit his videos, he had a rough time. I recommend checking out that video. I agree with you. In the past, I have spent way too much money on buying high end SKUs that are past the point of diminishing return. I learned my lesson, I'm not going to pay $200 more for a CPU that is 100 MHz faster. I can't wait to get my laptop. I didn't check my email until two days after framework launched pre-orders, so that put me in batch 7. I'm starting to obsessed over this laptop. The engineers at framework are amazing, I can't wait to see what upgrades they'll have for laptops in the future. I noticed that it costs $876 for owners of the original 11th Gen laptop to upgrade the battery, hinges, screen, top cover, web cam, speakers, and Ryzen 5 motherboard with the RZ616 WiFi module. A new bare bones laptop will cost $850. After seeing that, I need to be careful with my laptop and not buy every single upgrade framework offers, my laptop won't be cheaper if keep throwing money into it.
God knows how long I've waited for innovation like this. It's still pretty expensive, but I will begin to save for this. At least now I won't be stuck with a specific gpu/cpu pairing for years.
I don't really think that will work out. You forget that CPU and GPU are married to certain mainboards. At the end you end up with the problem that you will always be limited by your mainboard. It's even worse. I checked the website and every Mainboard component has a fixed GPU and CPU. You can only exchange the Mainboard with another one. So the author of the video is lying at this part. And don't forget that every electronic part has a life span. If your parts get 5 years old you are good. Every year longer and you are lucky. What I mean is when you upgrade your Mainboard CPU GPU module....it might only take another year until the rest has to be replaced.
@@schizofennec It's because most of the general public were either unaware of their existence or they had no access to them. I only found out about them in 2019 when I got a post-IBM thinkpad.
@@stemill1569 laptop prolly wont change in sizes. And remember what is mentioned, everything is open source that means even the chassis. It's similar to how the cabinets are treated at home. Therefore he is not lying. Yes motherboards are for 2 or 3 gens max but after that u can change for a better motherboard, and some motherboards do still support older gens. right now they have fixed GPU and CPU becoz they only have 2 versions of the laptop released. 13 and 16.
I believe the Framework 16 does support 240w charging, if you can find a charger that can do it. IIRC from the blog post Framework decided not to do that because inefficiency losses from converting 40v (What USB uses for 240w) to 12v (What laptop motherboards run on) were great enough that they'd need a (relatively) massive charger just to get rid of the extra heat. 22:30 Oh hey you mentioned it.
A large benefit of this laptop is the ability to upgrade RAM and storage at market prices. That brings the price more in line with equivalent laptops, especially now that a lot of them come with soldered LPDDR5 that makes it impossible to buy cheap and upgrade at home. Not to mention the macbooks that now cannot even have the SSD upgraded. I am seriously considering getting this laptop after university with the intention of adding 64gb of ram.
Yeah, that's why I don't buy Macs. You literally cannot upgrade or even replace anything broken except on the $7000 Mac Pro, and even then, only the propietary SSDs can be replaced because Apple is greedy.
@@cameronbosch1213 I actually thought even the SSD was nearly impossible to replace in new Macbooks. Something like you could only replace it with another one of identical size.
@@leonro It is. Only the Mac Pro can have its SSD replaced AND upgraded. The MacBooks all have soldered on SSDs, which are enough to prevent me from buying them.
People complain about the price but this product is not aimed at the general public. The average laptop buyer is not used to upgrading anything, they just buy the new thing. As it stands, it's a very cool concept for the enthusiast market. Congrats to framework for releasing such an "outside the conventions" product, let's see if in a few years it has been successful.
This... heck, I build computers and I almost never overclock even though I build them to be able to. Very few will do any serious upgrading on anything so this thing is definitely a niche atm... but it would be cool if they start pushing new industry standards.
The reason the "general public" is not "used to upgrade" is because you can't fcking upgrade anything. That stops now, culture must change, education is the way for the utopia.
Looks expensive at first, but if some parts inside gets broken or obsolete after years of use, you can simply replace/upgrade it with new parts for less price
@@sihamhamda47 I don't think the savings are as compelling as you think. Buying extended/more comprehensive warranty or insurance is cheaper if damage is what you are concerned about. In terms of upgrading later on, buying laptops on sale and selling your old laptop will also be cheaper than upgrading parts on the Framework. The long term cost savings (if there even are any) are marginal at best. This is not a product you get if you are looking to save money. You get it because you are very peculiar about your PC specs, the laptop layout, and the novelty factor.
Thanks for actually recording the fan noise with a mic. I was wondering if it was one of those fans that made a high pitched whine but fortunately it sounds like that's not the case here.
Yeah, Framework has definitely worked a LOT on their fan tuning and cooling solutions. I reccently upgraded my FW13 to AMD and HOLY SHIT it's so much better. It's loud, but it's low enough in pitch that it actually helps in feeling like white noise. You're not distracted by it. And the cooling performance is somehow way better, too.
I'm amazed that the Macbook got half a point. What was that for? Like a pitty point or something? There is literally nothing you can upgrade on those things. Hell, you can't even replace the lid angle sensor without getting some BS artificial error from Apple.
I believe that thinking of the Framework 16 as "a gaming laptop that could be upgraded" gives off the wrong impression. As mentioned in the video, its price-to-performance is not great compared to other more integrated options. It might make more sense to think of it as "a repairable, customizable, modular laptop that just so happens to be able to game too"
Yup! As they age, I hope more people will share and show how this can actually be very price competitive in the long run. Because of how repairable is. And how good / confortable is to a) choose what and when to upgrade and b) be sure that you can use the laptop for years, even 10 years, even if Framework goes bust tomorrow. No other brand is even close to that.
Yeah, someone told me here that we missed the point, that this laptop was meant mainly for repairability, and not for upgrading. Ok sure, diehard framework fans gonna fan, but I am not drinking that Kool aid then. Framework is not what i have been looking for in that case. I support right to repair, but this was not what I signed up for when thinking about a daily driver / gaming laptop. I look for price/performance first before other things. *and before anyone says it, yes I get it, this is not meant to be a gaming laptop GOD DAMN. I was just looking for reason to support your damn thing jeez. This was a laptop reviewed by a channel that mostly reviews gaming laptops. This marketing is misleading in that case.
@@RuyGedares_GuyRedaresyou missed one point: is a small recent company which is running this, obviously with major investors but as every new product it's very expensive at the beginning, obviously if framework can't lower costs this product don't deserve more support but at the moment I'm totally convinced that even with that price someone who supports "right to repair" have to support this just because if this product is successful it'll gonna do pressure in the entire laptop industry
Yeah , but we still have to wait so the prices will go down (we need more companies that does that so the prices will go down cuz it is kinda expensive now)
Jarrod vid. Automatic like and share. So regards the laptop. the GPU temps are stellar i hope that when a newer gpu comes they improve the cooling even more for a heavier gpu. cpu at 80 degrees at just 30w kinda worries me but just a little. and idk if there will be a Speaker module, that would be amazing my favourite laptop model is the 2021-23 zephyrus. had everything i wanted but. having the repairablility really appeals me, i've seen ppl rockin laptops from like 10 years ago, and still runing like a champ. framework have a real potential.
Yeah. 7 year old Clevo beast here still running great *touches wood*. Thing to remember, low-mid load cpu temp can be from poor cooling or from a preference for silence. I'm playing with a cheap 13900hx Acer right now and it's CPU thermals are worse in eco mode with no fan and 45W pl1 than in max turbo jet mode at 157W
Here's to hoping they release something like a 7800m module. That'd be my "welp time to buy" sign for me. Having that visible upgrade goal to the to top end specs should be something available imo
Yep. The combo of feasible portability with docked power would have me sold. Someone surely will do a detachable watercooling mod too, to allow for a weight and space saving on the air-only heatsink, allowing it to be made with premium components (vrms etc) and flexible HX CPUs Which is what I'd expect from a premium priced option such as the framework in the first place
The problem with the "future proof" stuff is usually it didn't last because not enough volume. Remember MXM upgradable laptops, it didn't last 2 Nvidia GPU gen then being cancelled with soldered parts later. I have an older 2013 MSI GT 60 laptop and you could replace your dead GPU, CPU, battery... witch is good enough for me. But if the upgradibility is only for the few years, better change every 10 years for the top. It's still good for environment and less costly. Still it's interesting and it should be the future of all laptop industry !
I'd love a ~100W RTX 4070 version of the GPU expansion module, seeing as my workload relies on CUDA/OptiX, personally. Then it'd be a must buy for me. They're SO CLOSE to being a dream laptop. Add a second M.2 2280 slot, bump the RAM max up to 128GB, use a 2560x1600 OLED, and that'd be a dream laptop
I do wish they'd been able to get a Nvidia GPU. While I'd generally recommend an AMD GPU for desktop builders, that's not true on laptop. They'd be much better off with a 4060/4070. I'm sure there's a very good reason why they went this way, but hopefully we end up seeing Nvidia come to the Framework at some point.
The reason is Nvidia. They rule the use of their GPUs with an iron fist, and don't allow manufacturers to use them outside of the exact form factors they've approved. It's the same reason why Asus's XG Mobile external GPU cannot use desktop Nvidia GPUs. It's the reason why Framework cannot make an Nvidia GPU module in the foreseeable future. Nvidia is not your friend.
@@poemontyperacer That’s interesting, but I feel the need to point out that AMD and Framework aren’t your friend either, the only reason I’d have preferred Nvidia is because they consistently have better price to performance in the laptop segment.
@@MrHamof no it ain't that, according to linus from ltt, to which i saw today on his live about the F16, nvidia seems quite picky about mass producing with different designs than the usual ones. I could be wrong about this though, framework just started with AMD, now lets see for NVIDIA slowly but surely perhaps.
The issue is without a doubt the price. I love the ability of this. But price is still a hard sell. This is something mostly budget people need yet only premium prices can be afforded lol.
I'm pretty sure there'll be a version that'll be more affordable for budget gamers in a couple of years. It likely won't come with all those accessories though.
For me who buys stuff in used market this one will be perfect, because it will not be expesive to fix it and could buy even 5+ years old one and still fix and run. I hope rich folk could buy it for compine servive long enough to degrese it's price when they enter into mas production
Living on a budget still requires some forward thinking and planning. Do you buy a cheap pair of shoes that you'll definitely need to replace sooner rather than later, or save up for something more durable?
I had to replace my laptop keyboard recently and the process looked like pain (I brought it to a repair shop, couldn't do it myself as it require soldering and open everything else, remove the screen,...). This look like a great solution once I have money to upgrade
One idea that just came to me,... keyboard layouts. Imagine being able to switch between ortho-linear, querty style, dvorak, split-keyboard or other ideas whenever! Or, to make a keyboard module that would allow you to move around keys along with a built in firmware for key mapping/data storing (so you can change to different presets based on current layout). That would be so awesome!
Right. The only reason to get a different one is if you need a larger/smaller body. Everything else can be upgraded. Heck, you could get a new chassis and put your old internals in it!
Jarrod can u plz include powercfg /a command output in every laptop to see if bios supports S3 sleep out of box because I'm fed of gaming laptops dying on me and before buying next one i need the solution. Day 1 of asking
Framework is today what Lenovo a decade or so ago. Not only can you upgrade the memory, storage, and GPU. You can also replace the mainboard (and processor along with it) and battery as well. The screen can also be replaced. No special tools required just a standard t5.
hoping they fix the price and maybe the weight issues in later gens, can def see this either being a game changer in the laptop game or a niche with a short lifespan in a couple years' time. also hoping they add more color scheme options on top of the ones that they alr have or give you a way to plastidip the external chassis parts to truly customize the laptop LOL
I don't think the price will ever be the same as other brands, considering everything is modular and removable makes it more expensive to manufacture compared to when you glue and solder everything together from the factory.
@@robise.5886 Yeah that's pretty much the issue people care about something being modular and upgradeable but you know what's number 1? It's always going to be price.
@@Pravculear How? isn't it 2k? while macbook pros are around 3k or more... with this much modularity and upgrade options I don't think they have to go cheaper.
They do need to work on the fit and finish, and that trackpad is a bit small for the size of the laptop. That said, it's great that you can easily swap parts, and don't have to hunt down things like specific models with, say, the keyboard layout you want. Still, I'm hoping they eventually come out with a model with Wacom EMR.
It can turn into a Tablet once it reaches its end life. The fact it can become something else later on makes it a instant win that and it won't become E-waste like every other brand once a single part fails think HP Spectre Labtops or Asus once those things die they dead.
@@riccardo3092 It actually is. The thing is, with other brands, you're hoping the second laptop doesn't regress features like we saw with Lenovo in 2023.
Great review. Well, I ordered a FW16 at the end of Sept, and am in batch 12. Hope it comes soon. I have 2 slightly different HP x360s circa 2917 or so, and the keyboards on BOTH are bad. I am actually using a Logitech K400 on top the HP keyboard right now. If I had a FW, it would be like TWO MINUTES or less to replace it. I have had both of these HPs apart to replace batteries and upgrade RAM on one. The RAM is maxed out and isn't enough for me. FW answers all that and more. Yeah, it costs a little more. The irritation of the bad parts is a bigger irritation than the price. Waiting patiently.
This shouldn’t be an oddity. Not for everyone, but there’s a lot of functionality that I honestly don’t need the bleeding edge on. Allows focused usage.
I’ve said it elsewhere but this feels very much like a “version 1.0” product for early adopters. Hopefully with time, they will refine the design some more and be able to offer it at a lower price point.
It totally is a 1.0 product. But most would agree that they delivered with the Framework 13. And I think they'll deliver on this one too, though it certainly is much more difficult, and, yeah, if you're on the fence, waiting it to be better is certainly the way to go.
I don't get how people are complaining abt the price. Isn't it around 2k including many of the modules, that's waay cheaper than what Apple is ever gonna offer. Their pros with 32gb ram stands around 3k while this only costs 2 or 2.5k ig
It is not competing with Macs. This is a diehard Windows-targeted laptop for people who cannot accept that Windows laptops are getting less modular. For the price of this, there are many cheaper and better options in Windows-land.
@@andyH_England huh? it is competing with Mac. This aint only a windows targeted laptop at all... nothing is preinstalled u can install any OS on it. It can also become a hackintosh. Or is it that suffocating inside the apple bubble? This is targeted at people who believe that once someone buys a product he/she can do anything with it. That's why people want repairability scores of their phones and laptops now. It is defying industry standards of devices engineered to be E wastes. That includes manufacturers who think their products are better when everything is soldered and serialized to the motherboard. Including something as basic as STORAGE.
For the price of this thing we're near a desktop build with an rx 6800 and an am 5 ryzen 7 ... Or alternatively if you really need a laptop u could buy one with a 4060 now and in a few years another one with better performance for the same price as the framework...
Did you even count properly? Because down the line instead of buying another framework entirely, you can just upgrade the GPU or CPU depending on usage, making the "laptop refresh" way less expensive than the brand new second laptop you'd get...
@@MatoVidovic_ Great you're either stuck with an obsolete GPU or CPU then, and upgrading the latter is almost as expensive as buying a new normal laptop entirely because the CPU isn't socketed (Like it used to be on older laptops that are truly repairable like my HP 8460p) and you have to replace the whole mainboard.
@@thecon_quererarbitraryname6286 If the GTX 1080 isn't obsolete now, i don't see how an RX 7700s will be obsolete in 4 years. and sure, it would be nice if the mainboard had a socketed CPU, neither intel nor amd even make socketed laptop cpus anymore, and at least with the replaceable mainboard design you can just create a new computer with it, like people have been doing with old FW 13 mainboards. (they have also said they are making a similar case to reuse the gpu as well.)
@@thecon_quererarbitraryname6286A CPU from 10 years ago is still relevent today you act like eletronic parts becomes e-waste the second new gen releases or something. If you want to throw 2k every 2 years because you want only top of the line stuff the go for it, I'd rather spend 700 every 4 years for an insignificantly slower laptop than yours
There's a lot of cool ideas in this laptop, great product. One thing I wish they would have done a bit better is hiding the gaps that show the pieces are modular, it would be nice if it would integrate more seamlessly that way it still looked normal instead of like Lego blocks. But that's a me problem, and I still really like all the ideas they put into the different sections that are able to be swapped out.
Seems more like a gimmick though really. No GPU upgrades as of yet. And it's priced in such a way that it's cheaper to just buy a whole new computer than it is to upgrade componenets. I like the concept, it just doesn't have the pricing to match.
@@Patrick-y4d1zThey literally have offered CPU upgrades for three generations of Intel CPUs (11th, 12th, and 13th gen) and even AMD Ryzen 7040U series CPUs for the 13 inch model. The real problem is Nvidia. No other GPU manufacturer currently has good laptop GPUs above lower mid-range since 2022, when the AMD Radeon RX 6850M XT was quite competitive in gaming with the Nvidia RTX 3080 Ti. Unfortunately, they still haven't released anything suitable for slimmer laptops like the Framework Laptop 16, and given Nvidia seems to be not working with Framework at the moment, there's nothing Framework can do at the moment but either wait for AMD to put release Radeon S GPUs or try to work something out with Nvidia. And neither are a guarantee.
@Vhirsion I mean there isn't really a debate to be had. PC Gaming isn't cheaper in the long run really. And this laptop is still more expensive than just buying an equivalent one multiple times. Say this laptop cost £2000, and the regular one was £1000. After 4 years, you'd sell the £1000 one for £500. Meaning 4 years in after the first upgrade, you'll be at -£2000 vs £1500. Then after another 4 years you'd be at -£2000 vs -£2000, which sounds similar. So about 8 years to match. But by that point your PC is massively underspecced for half a decade compared to the alternative. To actually benefit, you'd need to then upgrade from here. So the new gaming laptop being -£500 net, would mean that the Framework laptop would need to be able to upgrade the entire system for less than £500, which given that they're 4 times that, isn't going to happen. It just doesn't make any sense from a financial perspective. You're paying such an enormous premium with the idea of being able to ugprade, but it's just cheaper by far to replace the entire laptop every 4 years and buy cheaper laptops. You could argue e-waste, but I doubt the difference is that significant, and you'd be selling the old laptops too, so somebody else would use it - then eventually gets sold for parts when no longer repairable. So yeah, Framework laptops make no sense really.
@@Patrick-y4d1z their current problem is AMD/Nvidia, Nvidia simply wont do something like that. its just not something theyre willing to do or allow. AMD is a problem because this is literally the best GPU they have in a laptop. if there was a higher option framework wouldve made it an option, but that doesnt exist. maybe future generations will have an intel combo, if intel is up for it. i personally hope for AMD to make higher tiers
@@bradhaines3142 yeah. manufacturers of parts is definitely going to be a problem too. I like the idea behind it, being able to repair and upgrade your own device. I just question whether or not it's actually better environmentally - we know it isn't financially or in terms of performance.
Reminder - you can get similar levels of upgradability with a cheap used ThinkPad, like the T480. Same two RAM slots (up to 64GB RAM), two SSD slots, a Thunderbolt 3 port, hot-swappable batteries (24Wh internal and 24-72Wh external, which can be swapped with another charged battery without needing to shut the laptop off), similar screen upgradability, easily swappable keyboards, good I/O (no USB 2 ports). Costs just $200-250 used or refurbished.
Nah. You haven't seen how easily you can repair this. The upgradability is tremendous with this laptop compared to the T480 (and I loved my T480). Repair is super easy too. They have everything labeled and is easy to directly purchase. All the schematics are available to repair on your own if needed. This is next level
@@one_step_sideways but if you booted cyberpunk on a t480 youd get 3fps.. nah it wouldnt even launch the menus actually.. saying this is comparable to a t480 is like comparing a toyota yaris to a toyota supra.. sure theyre both reliable toyotas but one is for an enthusiaast and one is for a commuter not to mention alot of laptops have upgradeable ram, storage, and even batterys.. no other ones have upgradable ports, cpu or gpu for me the price to performance is a little too steep and i feel like after 5-6 years i just want a whole new machine not 500-600$ to drop a better gpu in the same machine thats lost its novelty an has 6 years of wear and tear on it, but gotta applaud them for getting this to market and hopefully putting some pressure on the industry to atleast keep storage, ram, and batteries user swappable
@@AndrewBrowner That's where you're wrong - the T480 has the Nvidia MX150 option, which is very overclockable and undervoltable. I got my T480 with the MX150, because it's was very cheap to have a dGPU like that. And if you really want to play this overrated unoptimized mediocre game at high settings and all, you can always use an eGPU enclosure. Get one from a friend for a week or two. If you don't have friends - then you shouldn't play videogames. I'd also like to point out that barely any new thin&light has two RAM slots. Gaming laptops - sure, they have to have them, but thin and light laptops like this year's ROG G14/G16, Dell XPS (absolute clownfest), and any Lenovo laptop have soldered RAM. You'll upgrade nothing und be happy.
Have you looked at the prices to upgrade? It is £1100 in the UK for last year's Intel 13 gen! I am certain you can get a cheap 13 Gen laptop for that with good specs, an OLED display and brand new and shiny.
@@andyH_England and desktop parts are cheap? plus they can price it that high because it is "unique" but when it's common then it won't be far from their desktop counter parts
@@andyH_England In the context of using an old laptop (which will certainly be VERY relevant for Framework in 3+ years) the idea is to NOT get the latest tech/gen, because it's always the worst price/performance. Upgrading to that 13th gen (which for Framework still basically the latest gen, MTL just appeared) in 3 years, possiblity even 2nd hand, will be much cheaper.
Such a well-thought out product that I'd honestly have no problem supporting. Not a huge gamer myself so I don't need a laptop to play Red Dead 2 or Cyberpunk on 4K, though rendering and 3D modeling/music production are another thing. But I do love the ability to CHOOSE how to build it how I want it, easily replace nearly every single part, customize parts and if I'm feeling froggy, use the available open source tools to design and develop my own custom add-ons for it. There's isn't another company making laptops that's even in the realm of what they are attempting to do. Screen upgrades would be interesting. But for what's there, that premium price is well worth it. If/when I ever need to buy a new laptop, I will highly be considering this one.
The desirable config is about 2500USD. At those price range, 1) I'd need some power-limit controls 2) Promise that better GPU module with 16GB Vram will be available by like next 2-3 years (upgradable GPU is what is worth the price for a gaming laptop IMO) 3) some sort of promise for mainboard upgrade in future-- when mobile zen 5 & RX9000 series becomes available 4) perhaps a separate power connector/adapter just to power the GPU module(if GPU module requires more power) Given that there are barely any All-AMD laptops available, this basically is the choice. Thing you hope for AMD parts is slightly lower prices compared to intel or nVidia, that argument gets lost here.
@@reiniermoreno1653 @reiniermoreno1653 is it Illegal to do AI stuff ? Or want to have 16Gigs, It's a lot of money, $2500, I better get something that isn't going obsolete in 2-3 years.
@@harshivpatel6238 the only thing which 16GB would be useful on a laptop would be AI, why you have so much VRAM just to gaming? For 1080p those 8GB will be still fine for a decade
You can change the refresh rate manually via display settings in Windows or in a Linux DE like GNOME or KDE Plasma. It doesn't do so automatically though.
@@cameronbosch1213 I was specifically asking for the automatic behaviour. The manual way, ofc I am aware of it. Besides, my question was whether the display woild go dark for a second or not. Thanks anyway...
I like it and kind of want to support this company, my only worry is will they be around to continue upgrading and how available are replacement parts.
On the framework(and any other laptop with wifi 6e) you can upgrade to wifi 7 because wifi 6 and 7 use the same slot, and that means you could upgrade the 2022 legion 7 to wifi 7, and this is great since Lenovo hasn't made a laptop like the 2022 L7 again. It's either too expensive (legion 9, but includes everything the 2022 L7 has) or it doesn't have things like an ethernet port or a 4080/90 option(2024 L7) or it's missing features(Pro7). Let's hope Lenovo can revive the 2022 L7's quality and lower price.
Hey Jarrod I'm making a custom Loq laptop with that i5 12450HX process which is also present on that Arc laptop which you reviewed so I'm pairing it up with a RTX 4050. My main use case is editing videos and uploading podcasts on RUclips so will this processor be enough for this use case or should I go for a more powerful one?
In the wise words of the Prophet Lizzo, IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME! I can't wait for this product to mature, I'm so close to getting one myself for work. I wish that the GPU addon fit the 13-14in model because 17 is too big a laptop for me :( I also really REALLY want a touch screen... with a two-in-one option pretty please ;A;
Hi Jarrod , please could you do a review on the Rog strix 4060 laptop and benchmark it on heaven, there is no info as to what performance it should have on the bench mark and I recently had some very mixed results
This is probably going to be my next laptop. I don't like the 14 inch one because of its display's aspect ratio. The current lenovo ideapad 5 that I have is enough for anything I need for school, so I don't really need it at the moment. Really cool stuff though! I hope they release next gen GPUs for it as well, would be awesome.
Been waiting for your review on this enthusiast laptop from Framework. Honestly, I love it and it's quite janky. The only downside is it's price which for a moderate company like them is justifiable. I hope this becomes a success.
imagine the framework 20-> now we can switch displays, and upgrade processors. The old pc build enthusiast will turn into laptop building enthusiasts in the future.
Technically you can upgrade the CPU, I know you may referring to socketed CPU but they can't do anything about that, AMD and Intel don't make them that way anymore, only to be soldered
An honest thank you for the help on finding a new laptop. Went with the asus tuf. But MAINLY, glad to see someone that enjoys most of the bands I learned guitar through. Thanks mate! Aman Amarth is top tier!
How is the asus tuf? I was looking for a laptop and I am looking at the advantages model. I wanted to know if I should get that or go with the asus rog g14(2022)
“It’s not meant for the general public so you can’t complain about the price!!!” “You’re paying the early adopter price, it will get cheaper when it’s widely adopted!!!” Paying the amount it costs for a better new laptop just to upgrade the GPU CPU RAM and Motherboard is fucking lame get over yourselves
Should i get asus rog strix 4080 2024(in japan they have strix 4080 model) or lenovo legion pro 7i gen 9 4080 model.. Both have i9-14900H cpu.. Please help me i am really confused which is better and stuck for almost 1 month to chose
How does the palmrest area feel with all those pieces? Since it's not like the usual single continuous piece but a few spacers together with the touchpad piece, the seams might feel weird if the alignment isn't perfect, plus I also worry about dust getting into those areas
I'm curious how FW will do long term. I generally have a lax upgrade schedule for laptops. So if I were to buy a FW, after 6-8 years I'd upgrade the main board, but by then, I'd need new ram, NVME drives will be too small to use, if we eve have NVME's in 8 years, battery will be toast. So I'd basically keep the 'case' and upgrade everything else if the screen is still working well.
Jarrod!, take an ear at "Rise to Fall", totally missed out their new album "The fifth dimension", from June 2023, probably the very best Melodeath band we have in Spain. Enjoy it!
I don't know if this is possible. However, I think it'd be cool if someone took a Frameworks 16" mainboard, and the 16" gpu expansion and made a super slim and compact console like case. Again, I lack the skills and knowledge to make this a reality. But it'd be pretty fun to have a semi custom PC in a slim console form factor.
It probably won't last as long, but it's by far the coolest laptop to appear in the market in a very long time. It's literally Lego but functional. Everything works as it should be. Plus you can even customise it to your own liking and needs. Definitely a very good product.
Ngl Apple already doesn't last as long with their E waste designs like soldered ssd and ram. Bet this thing can last decades if the modules are still sold on their website. Around 60 dollars for smaller modules and 80 dollars for batteries n such is plenty.
The chassis itself should last at least 5 years, if we take into account that Framework's module designs are open source, therefore the upgradability is endless. Not only that, but I believe that in the future, people know what e-waste is and would like to reduce it. Framework proposes the solution
Why it wouldn't last as long (as long as who or what?) That, I'd say, the main idea of this laptop, the repairability and parts reusability. Unless it was done badly, which doesn't seem so (but too early to tell) or if you really dont' take care of it (but it will be a problem for other laptops too in this case) then it should last, say 10 years. If you think and plan, using this for 10 years, and only doing 1-2 CPU/GPU upgrades, but getting things that are not latest, so they're MUCH cheaper (including 2nd hand) then this can actually get to be pretty cheap. While still being great in most areas.
@JarrodsTech as a software developer I really really appreciate you having a dedicated section on Linux support. Little things like this make you the best laptop reviewer IMO
eh, his section is pretty... brief...
Doesn't touch on the topic of drivers and the like. Quite a lot of his videos that showcase laptops that have Nvidia GPUs and their compatibility with Linux don't really go deeper into things like Wayland support, driver issues and so on and forth.
@@jamesbrendan5170 true but for that to happen there needs to be an audience to speak up saying they want more linux info, pretty sure nobody in his team knows much of linux too.. Otherwise we can still rely on info from places like reddit, and other such forums.
@@jamesbrendan5170You only care about wayland and stuff if using nvidia, because fuck nvidia and their proprietary shit. On the other hand things just works on amd parts, which is the exact path framework chose to go to support both OS
@@linhusp2349 hey I am not familiar on the low level stuff here, are you saying that amd has better support for linux because nvidia apparently has proprietary drivers?
Framework sent out an email yesterday saying they made a fix for the mid-plate flex. Some people have their laptop already and Framework will offer the parts for those who want it.
Awesome video, your answered some questions I have about the laptop and it was a thorough review. Thanks!
They seem to be very dedicated costumer service and care.
@@BouncingZeus It's impressive to see how transparent they have been throughout this whole process. When things have gone wrong, they've let everyone know and done their best to fix it, whether it was their fault or a vendor's.
Yeah, I have a 16" on pre-order for the purpose of my work making RUclips videos and I have watched as Framework has tackled so many problems with their suppliers on power delivery, CPU heat, GPU drivers, firmware, etc. They have shown transparency and diligence in addressing ongoing issues which makes me confident they will continue to provide new and better features and expansions. The only piece missing is a 240W USB-C PD power supply as they recommend for their laptop when using the dGPU. I'm sure that they will have it as well though as soon as their supplier do. I also have to agree with the video that buying the Ryzen 9 isn't worth the money, since all benchmarks barely eek past the Ryzen 7.
@@jandjrandr That's awesome, I hope it serves you well. Elevated systems did a review on this laptop and used software to edit his videos, he had a rough time. I recommend checking out that video.
I agree with you. In the past, I have spent way too much money on buying high end SKUs that are past the point of diminishing return. I learned my lesson, I'm not going to pay $200 more for a CPU that is 100 MHz faster. I can't wait to get my laptop. I didn't check my email until two days after framework launched pre-orders, so that put me in batch 7. I'm starting to obsessed over this laptop. The engineers at framework are amazing, I can't wait to see what upgrades they'll have for laptops in the future. I noticed that it costs $876 for owners of the original 11th Gen laptop to upgrade the battery, hinges, screen, top cover, web cam, speakers, and Ryzen 5 motherboard with the RZ616 WiFi module. A new bare bones laptop will cost $850. After seeing that, I need to be careful with my laptop and not buy every single upgrade framework offers, my laptop won't be cheaper if keep throwing money into it.
9:01 it's over 9000!
And at 9:01 too
Plenty effort for very small detail
Netizens: We are not the same!
Me: Aww, someone said the comment I wanted to say.
what? over 9000!?!
God knows how long I've waited for innovation like this. It's still pretty expensive, but I will begin to save for this. At least now I won't be stuck with a specific gpu/cpu pairing for years.
also can upgrade at your budget/time, not invest into a new laptop ever 3-4 years.
I don't really think that will work out.
You forget that CPU and GPU are married to certain mainboards.
At the end you end up with the problem that you will always be limited by your mainboard.
It's even worse. I checked the website and every Mainboard component has a fixed GPU and CPU.
You can only exchange the Mainboard with another one.
So the author of the video is lying at this part.
And don't forget that every electronic part has a life span. If your parts get 5 years old you are good. Every year longer and you are lucky.
What I mean is when you upgrade your Mainboard CPU GPU module....it might only take another year until the rest has to be replaced.
people have forgotten that we had DIY laptops in 2012, and that gpu upgrades have been a thing for ages
@@schizofennec It's because most of the general public were either unaware of their existence or they had no access to them. I only found out about them in 2019 when I got a post-IBM thinkpad.
@@stemill1569 laptop prolly wont change in sizes. And remember what is mentioned, everything is open source that means even the chassis. It's similar to how the cabinets are treated at home. Therefore he is not lying. Yes motherboards are for 2 or 3 gens max but after that u can change for a better motherboard, and some motherboards do still support older gens. right now they have fixed GPU and CPU becoz they only have 2 versions of the laptop released. 13 and 16.
I believe the Framework 16 does support 240w charging, if you can find a charger that can do it. IIRC from the blog post Framework decided not to do that because inefficiency losses from converting 40v (What USB uses for 240w) to 12v (What laptop motherboards run on) were great enough that they'd need a (relatively) massive charger just to get rid of the extra heat.
22:30 Oh hey you mentioned it.
A large benefit of this laptop is the ability to upgrade RAM and storage at market prices. That brings the price more in line with equivalent laptops, especially now that a lot of them come with soldered LPDDR5 that makes it impossible to buy cheap and upgrade at home. Not to mention the macbooks that now cannot even have the SSD upgraded. I am seriously considering getting this laptop after university with the intention of adding 64gb of ram.
Yeah, that's why I don't buy Macs. You literally cannot upgrade or even replace anything broken except on the $7000 Mac Pro, and even then, only the propietary SSDs can be replaced because Apple is greedy.
@@cameronbosch1213 I actually thought even the SSD was nearly impossible to replace in new Macbooks. Something like you could only replace it with another one of identical size.
@@leonro It is. Only the Mac Pro can have its SSD replaced AND upgraded. The MacBooks all have soldered on SSDs, which are enough to prevent me from buying them.
@@cameronbosch1213they also have a tendency to fry themselves and the certified repair shops claiming it was water damage.
People complain about the price but this product is not aimed at the general public. The average laptop buyer is not used to upgrading anything, they just buy the new thing. As it stands, it's a very cool concept for the enthusiast market. Congrats to framework for releasing such an "outside the conventions" product, let's see if in a few years it has been successful.
This... heck, I build computers and I almost never overclock even though I build them to be able to. Very few will do any serious upgrading on anything so this thing is definitely a niche atm... but it would be cool if they start pushing new industry standards.
@@hang10wannabeI want to see CAMM be adopted
The reason the "general public" is not "used to upgrade" is because you can't fcking upgrade anything.
That stops now, culture must change, education is the way for the utopia.
Looks expensive at first, but if some parts inside gets broken or obsolete after years of use, you can simply replace/upgrade it with new parts for less price
@@sihamhamda47 I don't think the savings are as compelling as you think. Buying extended/more comprehensive warranty or insurance is cheaper if damage is what you are concerned about. In terms of upgrading later on, buying laptops on sale and selling your old laptop will also be cheaper than upgrading parts on the Framework. The long term cost savings (if there even are any) are marginal at best. This is not a product you get if you are looking to save money. You get it because you are very peculiar about your PC specs, the laptop layout, and the novelty factor.
Appreciate the fan noise test, couldnt easily find another review with fan noise, not even Linus even mentions fan noise in review
Thanks for actually recording the fan noise with a mic. I was wondering if it was one of those fans that made a high pitched whine but fortunately it sounds like that's not the case here.
Yeah, Framework has definitely worked a LOT on their fan tuning and cooling solutions. I reccently upgraded my FW13 to AMD and HOLY SHIT it's so much better. It's loud, but it's low enough in pitch that it actually helps in feeling like white noise. You're not distracted by it. And the cooling performance is somehow way better, too.
@@benjiro8793 This is also true. But Framework's thermal solution is also miles better than it used to be.
this should be the new normal for how laptops are designed , having powerful hardware that can me moved around at the users will.
>69 upgrade score. My life is complete
easy market
nice
I'm amazed that the Macbook got half a point. What was that for? Like a pitty point or something? There is literally nothing you can upgrade on those things. Hell, you can't even replace the lid angle sensor without getting some BS artificial error from Apple.
Battery is removable. That's literally it. The screws are propietary pentalobe screws and everything else is soldered.
@@cameronbosch1213 Yeah, but won't it disable some of the features if the battery isn't the same one it shipped with from the factory?
@@mitchib1440 On iPhones or iPads, yes, but I'm not 100% sure on MacBooks. Definitely don't buy one if you value right to repair even a little.
I believe that thinking of the Framework 16 as "a gaming laptop that could be upgraded" gives off the wrong impression. As mentioned in the video, its price-to-performance is not great compared to other more integrated options. It might make more sense to think of it as "a repairable, customizable, modular laptop that just so happens to be able to game too"
Yup! As they age, I hope more people will share and show how this can actually be very price competitive in the long run. Because of how repairable is. And how good / confortable is to a) choose what and when to upgrade and b) be sure that you can use the laptop for years, even 10 years, even if Framework goes bust tomorrow. No other brand is even close to that.
Yeah, someone told me here that we missed the point, that this laptop was meant mainly for repairability, and not for upgrading.
Ok sure, diehard framework fans gonna fan, but I am not drinking that Kool aid then. Framework is not what i have been looking for in that case.
I support right to repair, but this was not what I signed up for when thinking about a daily driver / gaming laptop. I look for price/performance first before other things.
*and before anyone says it, yes I get it, this is not meant to be a gaming laptop GOD DAMN. I was just looking for reason to support your damn thing jeez.
This was a laptop reviewed by a channel that mostly reviews gaming laptops.
This marketing is misleading in that case.
@@RuyGedares_GuyRedaresyou missed one point: is a small recent company which is running this, obviously with major investors but as every new product it's very expensive at the beginning, obviously if framework can't lower costs this product don't deserve more support but at the moment I'm totally convinced that even with that price someone who supports "right to repair" have to support this just because if this product is successful it'll gonna do pressure in the entire laptop industry
Imagine not understanding the definition of an upgrade
This is the greatest hope of the entire industry
Yea, tell me about it. 😊
Yeah , but we still have to wait so the prices will go down (we need more companies that does that so the prices will go down cuz it is kinda expensive now)
I love this kind of upgradeability and repairability. Should be industry standard.
A little dismayed that the laptop isnt available everywhere yet. Been waiting for years.
Yeah unfortunately it takes years to completely achieve a paradigm shift like this. Let's hope it continues to grow and one day becomes mainstream.
It shouldn't be too long. A lot of intelligent people are involved in the project.
I'm a scientist living near the North Pole and I DEMAND a Framework laptop to be delivered in an instant hahaha 🌈
Yo, Jarrod’s Tech just helped me choose my gaming laptop. Hats off, Jarrod.😊
Jarrod vid. Automatic like and share.
So regards the laptop. the GPU temps are stellar i hope that when a newer gpu comes they improve the cooling even more for a heavier gpu. cpu at 80 degrees at just 30w kinda worries me but just a little. and idk if there will be a Speaker module, that would be amazing my favourite laptop model is the 2021-23 zephyrus. had everything i wanted but. having the repairablility really appeals me, i've seen ppl rockin laptops from like 10 years ago, and still runing like a champ. framework have a real potential.
Yeah. 7 year old Clevo beast here still running great *touches wood*. Thing to remember, low-mid load cpu temp can be from poor cooling or from a preference for silence.
I'm playing with a cheap 13900hx Acer right now and it's CPU thermals are worse in eco mode with no fan and 45W pl1 than in max turbo jet mode at 157W
Here's to hoping they release something like a 7800m module. That'd be my "welp time to buy" sign for me. Having that visible upgrade goal to the to top end specs should be something available imo
Yep. The combo of feasible portability with docked power would have me sold. Someone surely will do a detachable watercooling mod too, to allow for a weight and space saving on the air-only heatsink, allowing it to be made with premium components (vrms etc) and flexible HX CPUs
Which is what I'd expect from a premium priced option such as the framework in the first place
The problem with the "future proof" stuff is usually it didn't last because not enough volume. Remember MXM upgradable laptops, it didn't last 2 Nvidia GPU gen then being cancelled with soldered parts later. I have an older 2013 MSI GT 60 laptop and you could replace your dead GPU, CPU, battery... witch is good enough for me. But if the upgradibility is only for the few years, better change every 10 years for the top. It's still good for environment and less costly.
Still it's interesting and it should be the future of all laptop industry !
The first generation of Frameworks was quite upgradeable. So this generation should be as well.
I'd love a ~100W RTX 4070 version of the GPU expansion module, seeing as my workload relies on CUDA/OptiX, personally. Then it'd be a must buy for me. They're SO CLOSE to being a dream laptop. Add a second M.2 2280 slot, bump the RAM max up to 128GB, use a 2560x1600 OLED, and that'd be a dream laptop
I do wish they'd been able to get a Nvidia GPU. While I'd generally recommend an AMD GPU for desktop builders, that's not true on laptop. They'd be much better off with a 4060/4070. I'm sure there's a very good reason why they went this way, but hopefully we end up seeing Nvidia come to the Framework at some point.
The reason is Nvidia. They rule the use of their GPUs with an iron fist, and don't allow manufacturers to use them outside of the exact form factors they've approved.
It's the same reason why Asus's XG Mobile external GPU cannot use desktop Nvidia GPUs. It's the reason why Framework cannot make an Nvidia GPU module in the foreseeable future. Nvidia is not your friend.
@@poemontyperacer That’s interesting, but I feel the need to point out that AMD and Framework aren’t your friend either, the only reason I’d have preferred Nvidia is because they consistently have better price to performance in the laptop segment.
@@MrHamof no it ain't that, according to linus from ltt, to which i saw today on his live about the F16, nvidia seems quite picky about mass producing with different designs than the usual ones.
I could be wrong about this though, framework just started with AMD, now lets see for NVIDIA slowly but surely perhaps.
The issue is without a doubt the price. I love the ability of this. But price is still a hard sell. This is something mostly budget people need yet only premium prices can be afforded lol.
I'm pretty sure there'll be a version that'll be more affordable for budget gamers in a couple of years. It likely won't come with all those accessories though.
But if you just count how much your last 2 laptop cost (and how you might have had to throw it away because of a single little failure, its fine...
For me who buys stuff in used market this one will be perfect, because it will not be expesive to fix it and could buy even 5+ years old one and still fix and run.
I hope rich folk could buy it for compine servive long enough to degrese it's price when they enter into mas production
@@iraklimgeladze5223 Yeah same lmfao.
Living on a budget still requires some forward thinking and planning. Do you buy a cheap pair of shoes that you'll definitely need to replace sooner rather than later, or save up for something more durable?
I had to replace my laptop keyboard recently and the process looked like pain (I brought it to a repair shop, couldn't do it myself as it require soldering and open everything else, remove the screen,...). This look like a great solution once I have money to upgrade
If the Framework 16 is successful, I can’t wait to see what they do to build a Framework 18.
One idea that just came to me,... keyboard layouts. Imagine being able to switch between ortho-linear, querty style, dvorak, split-keyboard or other ideas whenever! Or, to make a keyboard module that would allow you to move around keys along with a built in firmware for key mapping/data storing (so you can change to different presets based on current layout). That would be so awesome!
I love the idea of this. People complain about the price but tbh it’s not that much if it’s the only laptop I will need.
Right. The only reason to get a different one is if you need a larger/smaller body. Everything else can be upgraded.
Heck, you could get a new chassis and put your old internals in it!
Jarrod can u plz include powercfg /a command output in every laptop to see if bios supports S3 sleep out of box because I'm fed of gaming laptops dying on me and before buying next one i need the solution.
Day 1 of asking
Now this is what I cal upgradability! The Framework laptop is amazing, we need to see this in more laptops!
Framework is today what Lenovo a decade or so ago. Not only can you upgrade the memory, storage, and GPU. You can also replace the mainboard (and processor along with it) and battery as well. The screen can also be replaced. No special tools required just a standard t5.
hoping they fix the price and maybe the weight issues in later gens, can def see this either being a game changer in the laptop game or a niche with a short lifespan in a couple years' time.
also hoping they add more color scheme options on top of the ones that they alr have or give you a way to plastidip the external chassis parts to truly customize the laptop LOL
I don't think the price will ever be the same as other brands, considering everything is modular and removable makes it more expensive to manufacture compared to when you glue and solder everything together from the factory.
@@robise.5886 Yeah that's pretty much the issue people care about something being modular and upgradeable but you know what's number 1? It's always going to be price.
Given the modularity, I don’t see that price coming down any time soon.
yeah, the price definitely has to come down if they want framework to be a mainstream thing.
@@Pravculear How? isn't it 2k? while macbook pros are around 3k or more... with this much modularity and upgrade options I don't think they have to go cheaper.
This had to have unbelievable amount of planning. For the panels to work the way they do.
I would love to see eGPU performance compared to the 13" Intel or equivalent with TB4. Great review as always!
They do need to work on the fit and finish, and that trackpad is a bit small for the size of the laptop. That said, it's great that you can easily swap parts, and don't have to hunt down things like specific models with, say, the keyboard layout you want.
Still, I'm hoping they eventually come out with a model with Wacom EMR.
price is double of a normal laptop
But isnt it cheaper for the long run?
@@Bayofthe91st nope
It can turn into a Tablet once it reaches its end life. The fact it can become something else later on makes it a instant win that and it won't become E-waste like every other brand once a single part fails think HP Spectre Labtops or Asus once those things die they dead.
@@riccardo3092 It actually is. The thing is, with other brands, you're hoping the second laptop doesn't regress features like we saw with Lenovo in 2023.
22:52 - 22:58
Great review.
Well, I ordered a FW16 at the end of Sept, and am in batch 12. Hope it comes soon.
I have 2 slightly different HP x360s circa 2917 or so, and the keyboards on BOTH are bad. I am actually using a Logitech K400 on top the HP keyboard right now.
If I had a FW, it would be like TWO MINUTES or less to replace it. I have had both of these HPs apart to replace batteries and upgrade RAM on one. The RAM is maxed out and isn't enough for me.
FW answers all that and more. Yeah, it costs a little more. The irritation of the bad parts is a bigger irritation than the price.
Waiting patiently.
There is a battery charge threshold in the BIOS! Amazing! Above and beyond! I've totally forgotten about Thinkpads. Plus I can even game on it.
May be custom framework keyboard that has trackpoint?
Still lighter than my g18! and i can finally put the trackpad in the damn center while still having a numpad. I'm liking this.
What does the scouter say about the upgrade score ?
It's over 9000.
9:09.
Nice.
It's over nine thousand!
@@JarrodsTechYes, most upgradeable gaming laptop of all time!
@@JarrodsTech crushes my non existent google glass (closest thing to a scouter)
😂😂😂😂😂
I really hope they succeed, cuz once laptops like the Framework 16 come down to about $1000-1500 CAD, I really want one.
This shouldn’t be an oddity. Not for everyone, but there’s a lot of functionality that I honestly don’t need the bleeding edge on. Allows focused usage.
I’ve said it elsewhere but this feels very much like a “version 1.0” product for early adopters. Hopefully with time, they will refine the design some more and be able to offer it at a lower price point.
Hey! You're that one guy from Notebooktalk!
It totally is a 1.0 product. But most would agree that they delivered with the Framework 13. And I think they'll deliver on this one too, though it certainly is much more difficult, and, yeah, if you're on the fence, waiting it to be better is certainly the way to go.
I don't get how people are complaining abt the price. Isn't it around 2k including many of the modules, that's waay cheaper than what Apple is ever gonna offer. Their pros with 32gb ram stands around 3k while this only costs 2 or 2.5k ig
It is not competing with Macs. This is a diehard Windows-targeted laptop for people who cannot accept that Windows laptops are getting less modular. For the price of this, there are many cheaper and better options in Windows-land.
@@andyH_England huh? it is competing with Mac. This aint only a windows targeted laptop at all... nothing is preinstalled u can install any OS on it. It can also become a hackintosh. Or is it that suffocating inside the apple bubble? This is targeted at people who believe that once someone buys a product he/she can do anything with it. That's why people want repairability scores of their phones and laptops now. It is defying industry standards of devices engineered to be E wastes. That includes manufacturers who think their products are better when everything is soldered and serialized to the motherboard. Including something as basic as STORAGE.
Such a great review! Thanks, mate!🤓
Very good and thorough review as always! Good job
This is sooo good!
For linux probably best option, all those other laptops won't offer support for any other OS then windows.
For the price of this thing we're near a desktop build with an rx 6800 and an am 5 ryzen 7 ... Or alternatively if you really need a laptop u could buy one with a 4060 now and in a few years another one with better performance for the same price as the framework...
Did you even count properly? Because down the line instead of buying another framework entirely, you can just upgrade the GPU or CPU depending on usage, making the "laptop refresh" way less expensive than the brand new second laptop you'd get...
@@MatoVidovic_ Great you're either stuck with an obsolete GPU or CPU then, and upgrading the latter is almost as expensive as buying a new normal laptop entirely because the CPU isn't socketed (Like it used to be on older laptops that are truly repairable like my HP 8460p) and you have to replace the whole mainboard.
@@thecon_quererarbitraryname6286 If the GTX 1080 isn't obsolete now, i don't see how an RX 7700s will be obsolete in 4 years. and sure, it would be nice if the mainboard had a socketed CPU, neither intel nor amd even make socketed laptop cpus anymore, and at least with the replaceable mainboard design you can just create a new computer with it, like people have been doing with old FW 13 mainboards. (they have also said they are making a similar case to reuse the gpu as well.)
That's like saying instead of upgrading your desktop's GPU you could just buy a pre-built PC
@@thecon_quererarbitraryname6286A CPU from 10 years ago is still relevent today you act like eletronic parts becomes e-waste the second new gen releases or something. If you want to throw 2k every 2 years because you want only top of the line stuff the go for it, I'd rather spend 700 every 4 years for an insignificantly slower laptop than yours
There's a lot of cool ideas in this laptop, great product. One thing I wish they would have done a bit better is hiding the gaps that show the pieces are modular, it would be nice if it would integrate more seamlessly that way it still looked normal instead of like Lego blocks. But that's a me problem, and I still really like all the ideas they put into the different sections that are able to be swapped out.
We have a new king in upgrade section now 😊
Seems more like a gimmick though really.
No GPU upgrades as of yet. And it's priced in such a way that it's cheaper to just buy a whole new computer than it is to upgrade componenets.
I like the concept, it just doesn't have the pricing to match.
@@Patrick-y4d1zThey literally have offered CPU upgrades for three generations of Intel CPUs (11th, 12th, and 13th gen) and even AMD Ryzen 7040U series CPUs for the 13 inch model. The real problem is Nvidia. No other GPU manufacturer currently has good laptop GPUs above lower mid-range since 2022, when the AMD Radeon RX 6850M XT was quite competitive in gaming with the Nvidia RTX 3080 Ti. Unfortunately, they still haven't released anything suitable for slimmer laptops like the Framework Laptop 16, and given Nvidia seems to be not working with Framework at the moment, there's nothing Framework can do at the moment but either wait for AMD to put release Radeon S GPUs or try to work something out with Nvidia. And neither are a guarantee.
@Vhirsion
I mean there isn't really a debate to be had.
PC Gaming isn't cheaper in the long run really.
And this laptop is still more expensive than just buying an equivalent one multiple times.
Say this laptop cost £2000, and the regular one was £1000.
After 4 years, you'd sell the £1000 one for £500. Meaning 4 years in after the first upgrade, you'll be at -£2000 vs £1500. Then after another 4 years you'd be at -£2000 vs -£2000, which sounds similar. So about 8 years to match. But by that point your PC is massively underspecced for half a decade compared to the alternative.
To actually benefit, you'd need to then upgrade from here. So the new gaming laptop being -£500 net, would mean that the Framework laptop would need to be able to upgrade the entire system for less than £500, which given that they're 4 times that, isn't going to happen.
It just doesn't make any sense from a financial perspective. You're paying such an enormous premium with the idea of being able to ugprade, but it's just cheaper by far to replace the entire laptop every 4 years and buy cheaper laptops.
You could argue e-waste, but I doubt the difference is that significant, and you'd be selling the old laptops too, so somebody else would use it - then eventually gets sold for parts when no longer repairable.
So yeah, Framework laptops make no sense really.
@@Patrick-y4d1z their current problem is AMD/Nvidia, Nvidia simply wont do something like that. its just not something theyre willing to do or allow. AMD is a problem because this is literally the best GPU they have in a laptop. if there was a higher option framework wouldve made it an option, but that doesnt exist.
maybe future generations will have an intel combo, if intel is up for it. i personally hope for AMD to make higher tiers
@@bradhaines3142 yeah. manufacturers of parts is definitely going to be a problem too.
I like the idea behind it, being able to repair and upgrade your own device. I just question whether or not it's actually better environmentally - we know it isn't financially or in terms of performance.
Reminder - you can get similar levels of upgradability with a cheap used ThinkPad, like the T480. Same two RAM slots (up to 64GB RAM), two SSD slots, a Thunderbolt 3 port, hot-swappable batteries (24Wh internal and 24-72Wh external, which can be swapped with another charged battery without needing to shut the laptop off), similar screen upgradability, easily swappable keyboards, good I/O (no USB 2 ports). Costs just $200-250 used or refurbished.
Nah. You haven't seen how easily you can repair this.
The upgradability is tremendous with this laptop compared to the T480 (and I loved my T480).
Repair is super easy too. They have everything labeled and is easy to directly purchase. All the schematics are available to repair on your own if needed. This is next level
@@Peaches4Rent I can buy 5-7x T480 for the price of a Framework 16. Imagine how many donor parts I would have.
@@one_step_sideways fair enough.
@@one_step_sideways but if you booted cyberpunk on a t480 youd get 3fps.. nah it wouldnt even launch the menus actually.. saying this is comparable to a t480 is like comparing a toyota yaris to a toyota supra.. sure theyre both reliable toyotas but one is for an enthusiaast and one is for a commuter
not to mention alot of laptops have upgradeable ram, storage, and even batterys.. no other ones have upgradable ports, cpu or gpu
for me the price to performance is a little too steep and i feel like after 5-6 years i just want a whole new machine not 500-600$ to drop a better gpu in the same machine thats lost its novelty an has 6 years of wear and tear on it, but gotta applaud them for getting this to market and hopefully putting some pressure on the industry to atleast keep storage, ram, and batteries user swappable
@@AndrewBrowner That's where you're wrong - the T480 has the Nvidia MX150 option, which is very overclockable and undervoltable. I got my T480 with the MX150, because it's was very cheap to have a dGPU like that. And if you really want to play this overrated unoptimized mediocre game at high settings and all, you can always use an eGPU enclosure. Get one from a friend for a week or two. If you don't have friends - then you shouldn't play videogames.
I'd also like to point out that barely any new thin&light has two RAM slots. Gaming laptops - sure, they have to have them, but thin and light laptops like this year's ROG G14/G16, Dell XPS (absolute clownfest), and any Lenovo laptop have soldered RAM. You'll upgrade nothing und be happy.
Please make a detailed review on asus g16
ok!
there should be universal module parts for laptops. you can resurrect an older gaming laptop with an old high end cpu by installing a better gpu
Have you looked at the prices to upgrade? It is £1100 in the UK for last year's Intel 13 gen! I am certain you can get a cheap 13 Gen laptop for that with good specs, an OLED display and brand new and shiny.
@@andyH_England and desktop parts are cheap? plus they can price it that high because it is "unique" but when it's common then it won't be far from their desktop counter parts
@@andyH_England In the context of using an old laptop (which will certainly be VERY relevant for Framework in 3+ years) the idea is to NOT get the latest tech/gen, because it's always the worst price/performance. Upgrading to that 13th gen (which for Framework still basically the latest gen, MTL just appeared) in 3 years, possiblity even 2nd hand, will be much cheaper.
As always enjoy seeing metal represented with the In Flames shirt. Can't help but wonder if the shirt is because the new album dropped yesterday. lol
Coincidence, but I'm seeing them live tonight!
@@JarrodsTech LUCKY! I sense a new In Flames shirt making an appearance in an upcoming video. lol
Such a well-thought out product that I'd honestly have no problem supporting. Not a huge gamer myself so I don't need a laptop to play Red Dead 2 or Cyberpunk on 4K, though rendering and 3D modeling/music production are another thing. But I do love the ability to CHOOSE how to build it how I want it, easily replace nearly every single part, customize parts and if I'm feeling froggy, use the available open source tools to design and develop my own custom add-ons for it. There's isn't another company making laptops that's even in the realm of what they are attempting to do. Screen upgrades would be interesting. But for what's there, that premium price is well worth it. If/when I ever need to buy a new laptop, I will highly be considering this one.
This is cleary the best thing , this level of customization is so good
When I saw this on Hardware Canucks, I immediately came to your channel (hoping) for a more in-depth review of the laptop.
HC really became so bad recently. Eber really stopped providing good reviews; it got so bad I unsubscribed in early 2024.
your on point man thanks for giving so many good reviews for the pc laptop world.
It's upgradibility is over 9000!!!
8:02 didn’t framework themselves make an ssd expansion bay as a basis for the gpu?
They did, but it's still relying on the iGPU.
The desirable config is about 2500USD.
At those price range,
1) I'd need some power-limit controls
2) Promise that better GPU module with 16GB Vram will be available by like next 2-3 years (upgradable GPU is what is worth the price for a gaming laptop IMO)
3) some sort of promise for mainboard upgrade in future-- when mobile zen 5 & RX9000 series becomes available
4) perhaps a separate power connector/adapter just to power the GPU module(if GPU module requires more power)
Given that there are barely any All-AMD laptops available, this basically is the choice.
Thing you hope for AMD parts is slightly lower prices compared to intel or nVidia, that argument gets lost here.
Why you need all that VRAM? Unless you're gonna do some AI stuff
@@reiniermoreno1653 @reiniermoreno1653 is it Illegal to do AI stuff ? Or want to have 16Gigs,
It's a lot of money, $2500, I better get something that isn't going obsolete in 2-3 years.
@@harshivpatel6238 the only thing which 16GB would be useful on a laptop would be AI, why you have so much VRAM just to gaming? For 1080p those 8GB will be still fine for a decade
@@reiniermoreno1653 let's see how it goes till 2027 shall we ?
@@harshivpatel6238 save this then
Mother of Customization!
Hey Jarrod,
Does the display flash black when plugging/unplugging the charger and the display has to switch the refresh rate?
You can change the refresh rate manually via display settings in Windows or in a Linux DE like GNOME or KDE Plasma. It doesn't do so automatically though.
@@cameronbosch1213 I was specifically asking for the automatic behaviour. The manual way, ofc I am aware of it. Besides, my question was whether the display woild go dark for a second or not. Thanks anyway...
Excellent review, thx a lot!
A GPU upgrade? For a laptop? Every other laptop manufacturer disappoints.
Will you still be able to do all those configurations if you're using Linux 🤔
I like it and kind of want to support this company, my only worry is will they be around to continue upgrading and how available are replacement parts.
Why don't we have more laptops with 240w usb-c charging? Seems like a missed chance.
I would definitely do the jump on this brand the day they change their screen to mini led or oled ! such a beautiful piece
Oh man. Give me a high end NVIDIA graphics option with an OLED screen.
God, I want this to have water cooling and a 4090.
Module support is the future of repair and technical upgrade.
I would add two things: undervolting and extra software (like Lenovo Legion Toolkit or Asus equivalent) for better performance.
On the framework(and any other laptop with wifi 6e) you can upgrade to wifi 7 because wifi 6 and 7 use the same slot, and that means you could upgrade the 2022 legion 7 to wifi 7, and this is great since Lenovo hasn't made a laptop like the 2022 L7 again. It's either too expensive (legion 9, but includes everything the 2022 L7 has) or it doesn't have things like an ethernet port or a 4080/90 option(2024 L7) or it's missing features(Pro7). Let's hope Lenovo can revive the 2022 L7's quality and lower price.
Exactly. Lenovo really made near perfection in 2022 only to abandon it the very next year. Oh how the mighty fell!
Why would you like to remove the numpad if you can fit it?
Many people would just choose not to have one at all I imagine.
Hey Jarrod I'm making a custom Loq laptop with that i5 12450HX process which is also present on that Arc laptop which you reviewed so I'm pairing it up with a RTX 4050. My main use case is editing videos and uploading podcasts on RUclips so will this processor be enough for this use case or should I go for a more powerful one?
In the wise words of the Prophet Lizzo,
IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME!
I can't wait for this product to mature, I'm so close to getting one myself for work. I wish that the GPU addon fit the 13-14in model because 17 is too big a laptop for me :( I also really REALLY want a touch screen... with a two-in-one option pretty please ;A;
Very nice, if they will contineu to make upgrades. And if other manufacturers will use the same standard
Hi Jarrod , please could you do a review on the Rog strix 4060 laptop and benchmark it on heaven, there is no info as to what performance it should have on the bench mark and I recently had some very mixed results
Very nice review. That laptop is impressive.
This is probably going to be my next laptop. I don't like the 14 inch one because of its display's aspect ratio. The current lenovo ideapad 5 that I have is enough for anything I need for school, so I don't really need it at the moment. Really cool stuff though! I hope they release next gen GPUs for it as well, would be awesome.
I would love if they start shipping these to New Zealand, I would rather have this than anything else.
The Framework16 is OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love the idea! By the way, I believe the good latency is because the AMD GPU. Nvidia GPUs are having bad DPC latencies.
No way
Yes. I was thinking about upgrading my Mobility Radeon HD 3650 with a Quadro FX 770M.
Been waiting for your review on this enthusiast laptop from Framework. Honestly, I love it and it's quite janky. The only downside is it's price which for a moderate company like them is justifiable. I hope this becomes a success.
imagine the framework 20-> now we can switch displays, and upgrade processors. The old pc build enthusiast will turn into laptop building enthusiasts in the future.
Technically you can upgrade the CPU, I know you may referring to socketed CPU but they can't do anything about that, AMD and Intel don't make them that way anymore, only to be soldered
An honest thank you for the help on finding a new laptop. Went with the asus tuf. But MAINLY, glad to see someone that enjoys most of the bands I learned guitar through. Thanks mate! Aman Amarth is top tier!
How is the asus tuf? I was looking for a laptop and I am looking at the advantages model. I wanted to know if I should get that or go with the asus rog g14(2022)
The upgradablility is over 9000!
“It’s not meant for the general public so you can’t complain about the price!!!” “You’re paying the early adopter price, it will get cheaper when it’s widely adopted!!!”
Paying the amount it costs for a better new laptop just to upgrade the GPU CPU RAM and Motherboard is fucking lame get over yourselves
Should i get asus rog strix 4080 2024(in japan they have strix 4080 model) or lenovo legion pro 7i gen 9 4080 model.. Both have i9-14900H cpu.. Please help me i am really confused which is better and stuck for almost 1 month to chose
Pro 7i rtx 4080
@@sakshamsharma4582 Do pro 7i have loud fan noise or coil whining issue?
How does the palmrest area feel with all those pieces? Since it's not like the usual single continuous piece but a few spacers together with the touchpad piece, the seams might feel weird if the alignment isn't perfect, plus I also worry about dust getting into those areas
This is seriously cool and innovative.
I'm curious how FW will do long term.
I generally have a lax upgrade schedule for laptops. So if I were to buy a FW, after 6-8 years I'd upgrade the main board, but by then, I'd need new ram, NVME drives will be too small to use, if we eve have NVME's in 8 years, battery will be toast. So I'd basically keep the 'case' and upgrade everything else if the screen is still working well.
This is surely the way to go, the future. Other manufactures should adopt this.
in your dream maybe
Jarrod!, take an ear at "Rise to Fall", totally missed out their new album "The fifth dimension", from June 2023, probably the very best Melodeath band we have in Spain. Enjoy it!
I don't know if this is possible. However, I think it'd be cool if someone took a Frameworks 16" mainboard, and the 16" gpu expansion and made a super slim and compact console like case. Again, I lack the skills and knowledge to make this a reality. But it'd be pretty fun to have a semi custom PC in a slim console form factor.
Cooler Master collaborated with Framework to make just such a case for the Framework 13, so one for the Framework 16 seems reasonable.
It probably won't last as long, but it's by far the coolest laptop to appear in the market in a very long time. It's literally Lego but functional. Everything works as it should be. Plus you can even customise it to your own liking and needs. Definitely a very good product.
Ngl Apple already doesn't last as long with their E waste designs like soldered ssd and ram. Bet this thing can last decades if the modules are still sold on their website. Around 60 dollars for smaller modules and 80 dollars for batteries n such is plenty.
The chassis itself should last at least 5 years, if we take into account that Framework's module designs are open source, therefore the upgradability is endless. Not only that, but I believe that in the future, people know what e-waste is and would like to reduce it. Framework proposes the solution
Why it wouldn't last as long (as long as who or what?) That, I'd say, the main idea of this laptop, the repairability and parts reusability. Unless it was done badly, which doesn't seem so (but too early to tell) or if you really dont' take care of it (but it will be a problem for other laptops too in this case) then it should last, say 10 years.
If you think and plan, using this for 10 years, and only doing 1-2 CPU/GPU upgrades, but getting things that are not latest, so they're MUCH cheaper (including 2nd hand) then this can actually get to be pretty cheap. While still being great in most areas.
What an innovative device! So much customizability, they clearly had the users need in mind.