Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Seven: Michael Ellis
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2022
- Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Seven: Michael Ellis
In this episode of the Training Without Conflict® Podcast, Ivan Balabanov interviews long-time friend and colleague Michael Ellis.
Michael Ellis is an internationally known and respected dog trainer with over 30 years of experience in competitive dog sports.
Michael has instructed countless seminars all around the country and the world.
He is also a renowned teacher at the globally recognized, Michael Ellis School for dog trainers.
Michael was also one of the pioneers of popularizing Mondioring in the United States. He was one of the first Americans that were certified Mondioring decoys, and he has done decoy and helper work across several dog sports at the National Championship level.
In this episode, Ivan and Michael catch up on some memories they shared in the early 90s training alongside each other in Northern California and then dive deep into some of the biggest issues facing present day dog training.
They discuss the recent attempts of the force free camp to push their “positive only” propaganda and dive deep into why their claims are false and unfounded.
The attack on dog training aversive tools in Europe is also a very hot topic.
Ivan and Michael also share some knowledge about the history of dog sports and their opinions about Schutzhund (IPO/IGP), French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondioring, and PSA in the present day.
Along with all this, Michael is also the breeder of the storied Loups Du Soleil Malinois kennel, which brings up a great discussion about breeding, genetics, puppy selection, and puppy raising.
This discussion is truly a masterclass of knowledge that all dog owners, pet trainers, dog sport competitors, and working dog handlers will enjoy over and over. One listen will not be enough to soak in the incredible dog training knowledge contained in this podcast.
For more information about Michael Ellis, check out michaelellisschool.com
Ivan Balabanov is a 2-time World Champion dog trainer, Ot Vitosha Malinois breeder, trainer of Premier Protection Dogs and founder of the revolutionary Training Without Conflict® dog training system.
For more information about Ivan Balabanov and information on how to train your dog using the Training Without Conflict® system, check out:
trainingwithoutconflict.com
malinois.com
premierprotectiondogs.com
Please like, comment, and share with your dog friends! 
Животные
I’m late posting but hope this gets seen by Ivan. My son is a physicist at John’s Hopkins In MD, the largest and most reputable research facility in the world. He is published and peer reviewed. He said that in true scientific research if there’s a disagreement on findings the person who disagrees talks directly to the person they disagree with, it’s respectful and in the spirit of learning. They put out a new study or add to the existing one citing the opposing person’s findings. It’s welcomed and encouraged because it’s in the spirit of learning. I told him about the way it’s being handled in the dog training world and he was quiet and then he said “that’s not science and that’s stupid.”
"It's not about the dog. It's about them, how they view the world. It's not about what's best for the dog in front of them." Michael nails it on the force-free movement.
What's the time stamp on that if you have? This is my 3rd listen and I keep missing it.
37:00 -37:23 Found it
38:07 38:15
My life has to another heattlrsd
These type of conversations are pearls to the dog world. Thanks.
hope you like it!
Louou
@@IvanBalabanov Hi Ivan, this was GREAT!!! thank you....
Is there any chance that we see Bart Bellon in your Podcast?
Mr. Ellis has no ego problems and wants everyone to excell..what a great person ality he has...he gives you space to learn and freedom to ask questions ..
Excellent and 100% accurate description of Michael.
Thank you for validating my view on how I walk my dogs. I always say it’s their walk and they love investigating the world! I use a long lead and when I need them to get closer to me, I call them back.
My favorite two trainers in the whole world. You gentlemen are responsible for almost every bit of progress I’ve made as a trainer, since I dropped out of the “school“ I was attending. Ivan, ever since you started doing this podcast…THIS is the one I’ve been waiting for. Cheers, to both of you! Thank you so much!
thanks for the support!
Which school 🏫?
which school did you stop going to?
just curious, as I am looking into a canine training academy.
ooh the bit at 30:24 about frustration really hit home for me. I've a 6mnth GSP who I'd been super positive and softly, softly with but I was having issues with her jumping up and biting at me with frustration during training. With the support of my trainer have changed my demeanor to be much firmer about commands and expectations and the change in my dog is amazing. I genuinely think she is happier being corrected (just 'ah ahs', clear 'no' when needed and some touches nothing crazy) as opposed to relying only of teaching alternative behaviours or letting her work it out or chose. Now we are both calmer, more in tune with each other and no more frustrated tantrum biting meltdowns. Giving myself permission to correct we have more time for training new behaviours/play/adventure so its such a win. So grateful to have this knowledge available but so hard to filter it out for newbies which Michael expresses so clearly in this interview. Really appreciate these open discussions with such masters of the training world- very useful in helping me try and navigate how to build the best relationship with my dog. Huge thank you!
Thank you
We ordered thissince we are planning to get a dog and we've watched dog lover on tv many times. The book ruclips.net/user/postUgkxGQVgV21bQ7B9b9duQ1ByImyT9xHbjOKq is a simple read and easy to understand. I like that it gives examples. We haven't put it into practice yet, so that will be the true test.
The nice thing about the internet is that it allows people who’ve never had access to top trainers to have access and see what that looks like. I’ve taken many dog training classes over the years and now I know that most of them weren’t all that good. I wouldn’t have known that before. Having access has improved my training so much!
I consume so much of both your guy’s material and apply them to my training. Grateful to have access to two of the best in the world! Great interview!
thanks for watching!
‘One person sticks a fork through his lip, now we all have to use chop sticks’ 🤣
😂
Now they just need to add Patricia McConnell in there and we'll have Royalty! 😄 Ivan, Michael, Patricia- my 3 biggest dog training mentors on earth.
I wish we had dog training contests like they do for Road to the Horse. Give 3 trainers a rescue dog and give them 3 days and see what they train the dog to do. Its so educational for everyone.
I feel so lucky that people with so much experience and achievements would share in such a humble and balanced fashion, even towards people's and individuals they know to be wrong
People can rip my flexi from my cold dead hands 😂 My multi titled sport dog gets walked on a flexi every day. I never make my dogs heel on a walk. As long as I'm not getting dragged around my dogs can sniff and do whatever.
Flexi fan here, too, Kelly!!! And ours serve the same purpose. Appreciate your shared passion…unto death!! Lol!
Flexi leads are great for dogs that are trained and who's owner have control but that has not been my experience, I seem to only run into idiots with flexi leads, lol!
Of course it's over 3 hours... That's not even enough!! The two most amazing trainers. Could chat for hours I am sure. Love you both.
Thank you
Definitely!
Agreed!
@13:49 this is exactly what is happening with me right now during my journey as a dog trainer. There is so much information, animosity, and opposing viewpoints that it can easily become overwhelming and cause inaction. This statement is so accurate. I was told that I need to just pick a handful of trainers I really like and stop going down wormholes.
Same!! It's like going to the pen isle at office max or whatever! 😄 I'm a "gatherer" in general and have really come to realize I need to USE what I've already gathered! I think I have the FOMO hangup too and that's a losing battle in this information age. I think my recent focus on being more sustainable with "stuff" is making me realize how we need to say "jees- I have ENOUGH! Now I need to APPLY. If I run out of THAT, THEN I'll gather more!" (Thankfully I'm not a woman super into clothes or I'd have tons of shoes 😳).
Good luck! You sound like someone who has much integrity about dogs. I think we'll rock as trainers! 😁🤓👊
GOLD! Thanks a lot for this episode. Two talking encyclopedias about the dog world, have a conversation together.. Perfect!
Michael ellis..you are perfect..your training skills are perfect..I am 80 and did it the old way and gave up after winning a ladies kennel club award at age 12....now late I life I find you and you have renewed my old desires...you explain everything perfectly
Still the best conversation for ALL trainers wanting to be REAL TRAINERS. Need a second one!
Absolutely amazing. I have wanted to listen to these two have a conversation for a long time. Thank you Ivan for making this happen.
People like Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov's knowledge is worth so much more. It's unfortunate that everything is about marketing and packaging nowadays. Some other "dog trainers" who give trashy sometimes harmful advice, yet good at making pretty videos or look pretty, have millions of followers...I'm not a dog trainer, but I find both Michael and Ivan's methods tremendously helpful! Thank you for putting out the good content!
Thank you!
Omg Michael cracked me up when he talked about group walking 🤣🤣 so true👍
😂
I had to pause and run to my husband and paint the "Karen dog walker group" picture for him...we cracked up for five minutes about it! He's a golf coach and he's re-watching the podcast with me...amazing the parallels between the golf and nutrition industry and the dog world.
@@corsodoglover3226
🤣🤣
I also re-watched the whole thing as I usually do that with all podcasts. Second time was even more interesting.
I have listened to a lot of podcasts about canine behaviour/training and this episode is by far the most awesome thing I have heard so far.
thank you!
I have my first Malinois and he is 18 months now.
I love dogs deeply but Nizwa has changed my life and I may foster another breed to give them life, until a new home comes but I have no plans of having a breed other than the Malinois. ❤
I appreciate listening to your discussions on training tactics. I use the e-collar and did not know there was such pressure on banning this tactic. My dogs safety is more important to me than peoples opinion, especially in a society where the abuse of women and children is normalized and broadly ignored. People will leech onto anything that keeps them tightly knit to the motion of the herd, as politically defined. I appreciate you both for advocating for the use of tools that are effective, beyond the propaganda.
Thank you for the breath of fresh air.
I would be willing to pay to watch a conversation with Ivan and Susan Garret. There needs to a be a limit to the pure positive craziness
😂😂 well that is one thing when you think you don’t have answers 😅😅 you try to avoid the one with the answers. I don’t know why purely positive people don’t want the conversation. A client came to me asking for purely positive approach I asked him will he give he son cookies if he steal from him. He said no I told him that is his answer
Love Susan Garrett! Followed her now for a couple years and her style of training really does work. If anyone is in doubt just google her, give it a try. Lots of accolades. She didn’t get to where she is at without great knowledge and training. Thanks Ivan for talking with Susan on your podcast Feb. 2023. Civilized, open, interesting, informative conversation and different points of view. 🙏
Excellent talk between two greats.
Balanced trainers talk about training, force free just talk about themselves
So lucky to be able to listen to 2 legends talk. Thank you so much. Very inspiring.
Two of my favorite trainers! Thank you to both of you for doing this.
you're welcome!
I would love to see Michael and Ivan develop a study like the 2014 study but done more scientifically with appropriate dog trainer input.
Thats a good wish!
@@IvanBalabanov I would devote my time to help you organize and document it! I can analyze quickly and compress the info! Let me help! You guys are so refreshing!
It's so interesting to me that you shared feeling silenced or cautious because of your use of tools, and here I feel the same relying on +R quadrant without tools in bitesports publicly because of the "drama" it creates. We're all out for the same thing, to train our dogs in the way that makes the most sense for our dogs and us. I hope we can all continue educating trainers across the spectrum to build strong relationships and work ethic with our dogs to compete at our desired levels.
Great episode, would love to see an episode with Haz from Shield k9.
That would be amazing!
This video is a jewel. It needs to be preserved for the ages.
Two rock stars🙏!
The emotions of the dog ALWAYS come first....
Love how you guys get deep into the weeds. You have to do another one dedicated to the history of the profession in the states since Koehler and up. Name drop and really get into the weeds. Mike Mckowen with Dog Sports Magazine. Get into subjects like who was making Barell Sleeves in there Garage. So many characters have come and gone in the profession. We need to get it written down and chronicle the profession before it is lost.. Not sure why I love this aspect of our profession so much but I do.. You might not remember it Ivan, but I met you, when you first came to the states. I think you were living in Sacramento at the time. You came to Debbie Skinners place. This lady don't remember her name, was raving about you. You think your accent is thick now. I could hardly understand you.. The growth of our profession and who is, or was who. The bare bones history of our profession. It needs to be chronicled. So Many names, so many facets.. Jim England and table tops could take up a full chapter. 😉
Great talk! We introduced Leerbug and Michael to our South African fog friends in 2000 and it opened a new world for us. We would get visting instructors holding seminars in SA but thwy would pass on 20% of the knowledge. Then we ordered some vids and Michael opened up a new world. We got to undetatand the whole picture first hand. We went from training with comoulsion and using food totally wrong to underatanding reinforcement a d drive. For people like me in 3rd world countries the internet really changed our world.
What a great story!
I had the privilege to attend a two day seminar that Ivan ran in South Yorkshire probably over ten years ago with my Police Dog and I was blown away. I loved this discussion between two of my favourite trainers and influencers to my own personal development. Could you put a link to the book your referred to regarding the Dopamine discussion please. Thanks for the discussion 👍🏼
Just found this podcast from a comment somewhere else. I absolutely loved what Michaeil said about oversocialization. Every dog owner I have met in the past year, almost every video for new puppy owners exaggerates the notion that absolutely you will have a horrible horrible dog if you don't get tons of socialization before 16 weeks. It is insanity. And if they watch extremely bad trainers like Zak G And V. S, they just start standing beside highways (yup he shows that in his socialization puppy videos) and feeling they have to ush them into meeting all dogs and people, go to doggy daycare etc. This is the first time I have heard someone address how this insistance on socialization is the cure all. Now we have a problem with over socialization and idiots walking around thinking well they did the socialization so they must have just got a rotton defective dog!
Alot of basic trainers dont grasp the concept that training is about communication. The dog must believe you are everything. This can not be achieved if you introduce with the wrong way external stimuli. You have to go deep and persuade the dog that you are everything, not just popping treats and luring it.
For example, why is it bad for a dog to want to chase a cat. Use that. Take control of the cat and use it as a mean of obedience. Whenever it sees a cat it will heel, sit, stay jump go to the moon if you ask it. These are basic training tools that sport owners use for decades.
I'm unclear why young puppies would be exposed to lots of other dogs given the Parvo risk.
Why do you think vs and zg are bad trainers? What experience in the field do you have?
@@This_is_sparta75 Is this a real question?
Ivan, you should come back to san francisco and see what has become of the dog culture in this city. Dogs are literally being blindfolded while on walks to prevent them from barking at other dogs. This is how far they are willing to go to subvert any valuable lessons with the use of punishment.
This podcast should be mandatory watching material in every dog training classroom.
Funny you mention that, in my area lots of trainers will put a dog behind a small "training blind" so the dog cannot see the other dogs to react... Like the dog can't still smell or hear the other dog(s). Just creates more frustration, for everyone.
You are absolutely correct this should 100% be mandatory to watch.
Are you sure those are blindfolds?
@@jamesrandal5442
Yes. What a silly question.
@@JoCoMoreno u have pictures of the dogs wearing " ANTI gutter surfing " headgear?
Literally??? I think you mean figuratively. Please.
Great podcast! So true what you say about the "studies" and force free trainers. In Germany we are actually at the point that even crate training is to be abandoned. Veterinarians think it's cruel to dogs... Since 2014 vets are the ones to decide if you are allowed to work as a dog trainer or not in my country. It's ridiculous!
indeed a sad situation. I hope you stand up eventually!
I had 15 dogs. They were on the first floor of my house. Each dog had their own padded crate..most dogs were crated inside, but some better trained or older were loose with various scattered dogbeds on hardwood floors. I was told by police that the Humane Society had been called and they told me to get rid of the crates. So I obeyed. Chaos ensued. Luckily no fighting, but the house was destroyed. I put some dogs down in the basement. They urinated everywhere and felt banished. Upstairs, my formerly clean, orderly, quiet house turned into a smelly mess with hair everywhere, nothing safe on counters, molding chewed up etc.
@@walkyourdog6584 sounds like you need to rehome about 12 or 13 dogs asap
@joeray5394 I have since moved and dogs are no longer in house. If crating them is unacceptable then they must live in outdoor kennels.
@@walkyourdog6584 do you work/breed the dogs?
I listened to this talk over the course of a few days and when I finished it I was like wow, these two are incredible. Now what do I do with my life.
Replays episode instantly.
Haha I know EXACTLY how you feel right now
This blew my mind as well!
Great podcast. I've been following you both for years. From the late 90's I got kicked out of my first Schutzhund club when I attended one of your seminars in Colorado with Dubheasa Germania (Dobermamm female) who I was told would never pass an impartiality test) You had her climbing all over a jungle jim. Then the famous Kentucky seminar with you and Michael and then Stewart Hilliard showed up. Michael and I caught up recently at a trial on my Mondio Field in Sedalia Colorado and then again at last years USMRA Nationals Great memories
Great discussion. I am a pet dog owner and recently completed5 different levels of classes. A one size approach was most of my experience. At times my aptitude and the dogs maturity/personality did not mesh with the instruction and I experienced regression in skills I personally taught my dogs and began to develop signs of aggressive leash reactivity. I have stopped the classes and now use the positive and negative tools from the internet and the classes that mesh with me and my dog. My dogs are now more excited for training, and signs of aggressive reactivity are gone. I am back to my challenge of an overly friendly dog, but I now am making more progress towards a calm dog without the class. I realize in a class setting more individual evaluation is hard, Maybe my comments will help you teaching dog trainers. Thanks again for the discussion.
Ivan--beautifully executed.
This is probably the closest I’ll ever get to any of these men.
When they say love you to each other I died inside a little.
I’ve got some extra inspiration for my training sessions.
Ha ha thank you. We are glad that you liked the podcast!
Definitely a brotherhood!
Great insight at the end… I feel like a lot of people do “bad” things out of ignorance. People generally do better when they know better. That’s why podcasts like yours and videos of Michael and others are so important. Thank goodness for you all and RUclips
amazing conversation, I was grinning ear to ear. Thanks Ivan and Michael for everything you've done and holding the space for real dog training.
thank you!
@@IvanBalabanov 2:46:50 would love to know more about that person wo can excite legends like you both .
can you pls spell his name as it very hard to figure out from the video
@@abhishekshukla4463 Luc Vanstenbruge
Shit this kind of talk makes me wanna go apologize to my dog and hug him till infinity. Thanks Ivan and Michael.
Two of the best minds in dog training today, breaking it down to a philosophical level- great stuff
@ivanbalabanov time to bring Bart Bellon and Jerry Bradshaw on !!!! Fantastic podcast very informative 👍👍
Perfect suggestion especially BART BELLON
I have been waiting for this conversation to happen for a very long time. Thank you so much for this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I don’t wanna use chopsticks 😂💪🏼
🤣
Thank you so much for saying what I and so many of us feel and know❤
I can listen to this all day long
I suggest releasing those photos and video (as much as you have) in a shorter more digestible video specifically about that study.
I think you could have something really powerful if you present that stuff as objectively as possible in something more likely to reach a wider audience.
It could be the type of thing a lot trainers and dog owners could rally behind.
agree, it is something I intend on doing, finding time is always an issue
As someone with a science background and has read the research on this stuff. This conversation is so cathartic.
Well done Michael and Ivan!
thank you!
I run a dog kennel. I am so unbelievably burned out. The barking has destroyed my nerves. The endless workload is demoralizing. I used to love my dogs so much.
Just discovered Ivan yesterday....And he is tight with Michael Ellis....confirmed Dog geniuses
Welcome!
Everyone speaks about how tools are aversive, but it can also be looked at as pressure. Pressure builds strength and character. I’m people and for sure in dogs
Great podcast, listening to two very knowledgeable people and open minded talk about peoples different ideologies. Positive only as you say IVan no one will engage with conversation around this subject unless your in there cult… Talking about real dog training and real dog training by which actually works. 👍🏻
💪🏻
I’ve made the switch from positive only out of my necessity with my young female Rottweiler. Nobody in the positive only community could help me, so I expanded my circle and it has made me a better trainer. My dog and I now have clarity. Positive only is a nice idea on paper, but it can create dangerous dogs who don’t understand the concept of “no” and that their is such a thing as a negative consequence. Not all dogs are created equal, and there is a reason you don’t see many Rottweilers, GSD, Malinois, and breeds of that sort in the positive only community.
That....was....beautiful!
" If there is a better way"....my journey explained
I'm not a dog trainer, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible and apply it to my own pet dogs as well as the revolving door of foster dogs coming through my house. This is absolute gold for me, thank you.
You’re welcome. Glad you enjoyed it
@@IvanBalabanov if I'm honest, and I'm not trying to be a dick, I genuinely did not enjoy listening to it. In fact, I really had to focus. BUT, the collective knowledge is so vast and the collective experience so great, it was worth every second.
'Good work will allow you to be successful' ❤❤❤❤❤🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you from the U.K. you keep me reassured in this crazy dog world👍
I have so many questions this discussion brought to mind. I loved how giddy yall got during certain topics also...yes! Curve ball...herding breeds vs working/guardian breeds and sport being designed to sort of "exclude" other breeds for lack of better word?
That struggle of knowing how much of what to teach at each level of development of new trainers is so real, I have the same questions and constantly try to improve my choices.
Hello Dante! Glad to see you here! Estou fazendo curso de treinador de cães guia e terminando seu curso de adestramento funcional
@@gustavomendes3369 que legal! Sim, tem entrevistas muito boas aqui, estou sempre buscando boas conversas sobre adestramento em todas as áreas!
17:40 Michael hit that on the mark 👌 it’s very true with all aspects in social media whether it’s dog training fitness business or money. Everything in life requires patience
I need more content like this in my life.
We are making it happen. Standby 😉
Love this talk. It is true that most regular dog owners want a push button dog - that will be more like a robot than a lively, thriving, playful, happy dog. They don't want to put the time and energy into shaping them. My dog wanted to jump and climb trees - no kidding! Not acceptable to jump on people. So, instead of squelching that drive, we started jumping on the boulders, and went to agility when we could. I was able to channel that amazing skill. Now, he understands when he can jump and cannot jump. He is a happy, playful and obedient dog.
This was just Poetry, so good 👍
Glad you think so!
@@IvanBalabanov 🤙
Home base idea is great ! Just came back from a REALY great walk with my girl; so she gets to be a dog, but the safety around cars was still there- and went even better ! 🎉 Thanks world masters!
Loved the interview. I actually had the opportunity to take my working line German Shepherd to Ivan’s training center. Natalia and their training group really did wonders with him. He’s a completely different dog. My breeder, Amanda Homan, said I was in good hands with them. Money well spent. Thank you!
Michael Ellis is a genius in making up terms! love it!
Could you please share a link to the book Ivan was referring to on dopamine? Very interesting
crikey Ivan i cannot wait to watch this
i watch alot of Micheal Ellis i love your podcasts they have been brilliant thank you.
big respect to you both from the uk.
enjoy!
Thank you for the great podcast!
Ivan, can you get Will Atherton on your podcast?!? He'd be an awesome guest.
Such a great conversation 🙏
thank you!
7:57 extremely powerful energy SALUTE 👍
Thank you
@@IvanBalabanov Are you in Cali?
That’s awesome.
Thank you both for this conversation! So refreshing :-)
Thabknyiu
Love This
Love everything about it!! You guy's speak out of reality. If you want to reach the Europeans you must subtitle in their language. Communication goes a long way if it reaches somebody. I couldn't agree more with everything said here. Thank you.
Two legends
Loved this conversation!! Am SO with you guys!
Great talk from 2 brilliant dog trainers.
So grateful you're doing this! Please, please, please more!!
Can you add some links in the description to some of the things you are reading about the neurotransmitters?
Loved this conversation. When I started in Schutzhund, Nakita was one of the dogs who inspired me to try to become a better trainer. Back in those days the Malinois were rarely seen in the sport and a female Mal was even more rare (especially at the highest levels). Ivan, your book was one of the first bit of info I had access to way back before the internet was a thing;) Great podcast!
Thank you!
This podcast is top tier , very enjoyable listening ! Thank you both for taking the time for this 👏
Thanks for listening
Am I the only one who rewinded certain parts several times to memorise what they said?
I’m glad you liked it!
Amazing thank you
Unbelievable conversation 👊
So happy you did this!!!
I am too!
Great conversation!
This is quality … I appreciate this conversation.
Been a long time follower and student of the work of both of these guys, remotely and in person.
Both are genuine and talented trainers and instructors.
Enjoyed listening to this.