Absolutely astounding to see one of these, let alone two. I'm probably way off the mark: but you mention this mid priced Atlantic being competition for Lionels #6. I would've thought in '08, '09 Lionels line would've been primarily sold in the NY urban area, whereas C&F would've had a larger geographical sales area. I would've thought in those earlier years until, say, the early to mid tens Carlisles electric lines would've been fairly much on its own outside the NY metropolitan area (admittedly the howard and knapp lines were likely big competitors but I'm not sure how well they were selling in comparison). I appreciate Ives electricification didn't arrive until the early tens for its gauge 1 products. Bing and marklin had their gauge 1 lines but with I'll say gauge 2 (sounds cooler than 2" gauge) C&F with its bigger mass would've been the train of choice over Lionel until Lionel started spreading its wings. Any thoughts?
Howard was out of business in the train line by 1908 Carlisle and Finch was primarily mail order but I'm sure they had a few sales people that were helping to promote the line and were well aware of the competition. In sales it's all about price points Carlisle and Finch was just trying to Fill a price point also they did a major cheapening of the line in 1909. Economically there is a recession through 1907 and 1908 which disrupted a lot of industries. Electric trains were a bit of a novelty until 1910 when a practical transformer was introduced and then sales really began to take off Lionel grabbing a majority of it due to aggressive sales force. You really needed to be in the mix in the New York area to be able to make a major dent in the toy world at this time... Or to have some serious showrooms representing your product with aggressive sales people to the buyers of the major stores across the country... I found no evidence that C&F ever had any representation in New York
@@vintage-model-trains @vintage-model-trains thanks so much for the very informative answer. I forgot Howard was out of business early on (and completely forgot about voltamp). Very interesting what you say about Carlisle being nearly all mail order, and trains generally being sold exclusively by large shops that only may have representation in certain areas. I believe Sears in those years stocked bing products, which would've been quite unlike the bing of Bassett lowke. What you're saying makes perfect sense of course: without a fairly essential market presence in NY as aggressively represented by Lionel, a potential consumer elsewhere would've likely had to rely on mail order direct from the manufacturer or a major mail order house. Lionels broader presence, and with an ordering through catalogue requirement the same as C&F, the C&F Atlantic's were very much competitive to Lionels #6. I could add I feel the C&F coaches look a bit dated for the time, not as appealing as their standard gauge rivals, and the #6 is rather elegantly proportioned, especially for the time, not unlike the Carlisle Atlantic's, but the competing Lionel product looks tougher, and a bit more more modern (the coaches from 1910 looking like 1910 coaches rather than 1890). I could add one look at either catalogue and seeing their respective track systems: to his credit as early as 1906 Cowan could see strip rail as being a dead end and following the German track systems. And contrary I think to our modern day thoughts: Lionel pricewise tended to give a buyer more bang for the buck. A typical bing or Ives set, although cheaper, would've been Clockwork, in a couple of years gauge 1, still cheaper but with less bulk: Lionels nice enamel finish, 100% electricity, longer and heftier trains: well worth the small extra cost. Is there anyway you could make your videos 5 times longer? You're a mind of information and really interesting.
Five times longer oh my I don't want to put everyone to sleep Yes it's fun trying to piece together history seeing what all the players were doing For Finch the trains were a seasonal Business they're making money with their other lines. This is also the case with Voltamp , Howard and Knapp . Lionel at this time was pretty much just trains so they had to swim or sink hence the aggressiveness in sales and trying to capture the market. The German imports were huge in comparison they were able to undercut many price points. It took World War I to take them out of the equation allowing the American toymakers to fill that void
@@vintage-model-trains like a split frame Bachmann; but while the Bachmann's tubing can split fresh out of the package; these are still good over a hundred years later!
I had no idea that electric trains went this early. How difficult are these to find? I'm interested in putting together a ~1910s model train set someday and am curious what the cost might be.
They're always a wide range of antique trains available on various auction sites check live auctioneers or invaluable auctioneers it needn't be very expensive but it can be
OK Leonard, why don't you just come out and admit to being a time-traveler? A benevolant time-traveler just the same who's willing to share the finds! Thanks for posting!
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
A real privilege to see these trains still running, thank you
So cool to see these actually running!
First time I have ever seen one of these run. Check that Two running.
I love these large U.S. old trains, real toy trains that last forever . is the track gauge similar to Lionel Standard?...greetings from UK
C&F is 2" gauge. ..Lionel is 2 1/8" ....
Thanks ! @@vintage-model-trains
Absolutely astounding to see one of these, let alone two.
I'm probably way off the mark: but you mention this mid priced Atlantic being competition for Lionels #6. I would've thought in '08, '09 Lionels line would've been primarily sold in the NY urban area, whereas C&F would've had a larger geographical sales area. I would've thought in those earlier years until, say, the early to mid tens Carlisles electric lines would've been fairly much on its own outside the NY metropolitan area (admittedly the howard and knapp lines were likely big competitors but I'm not sure how well they were selling in comparison). I appreciate Ives electricification didn't arrive until the early tens for its gauge 1 products. Bing and marklin had their gauge 1 lines but with I'll say gauge 2 (sounds cooler than 2" gauge) C&F with its bigger mass would've been the train of choice over Lionel until Lionel started spreading its wings.
Any thoughts?
Howard was out of business in the train line by 1908
Carlisle and Finch was primarily mail order but I'm sure they had a few sales people that were helping to promote the line and were well aware of the competition.
In sales it's all about price points Carlisle and Finch was just trying to
Fill a price point also they did a major cheapening of the line in 1909.
Economically there is a recession through 1907 and 1908 which disrupted a lot of industries.
Electric trains were a bit of a novelty until 1910 when a practical transformer was introduced and then sales really began to take off Lionel grabbing a majority of it due to aggressive sales force. You really needed to be in the mix in the New York area to be able to make a major dent in the toy world at this time... Or to have some serious showrooms representing your product with aggressive sales people to the buyers of the major stores across the country... I found no evidence that C&F ever had any representation in New York
@@vintage-model-trains @vintage-model-trains thanks so much for the very informative answer. I forgot Howard was out of business early on (and completely forgot about voltamp).
Very interesting what you say about Carlisle being nearly all mail order, and trains generally being sold exclusively by large shops that only may have representation in certain areas. I believe Sears in those years stocked bing products, which would've been quite unlike the bing of Bassett lowke.
What you're saying makes perfect sense of course: without a fairly essential market presence in NY as aggressively represented by Lionel, a potential consumer elsewhere would've likely had to rely on mail order direct from the manufacturer or a major mail order house. Lionels broader presence, and with an ordering through catalogue requirement the same as C&F, the C&F Atlantic's were very much competitive to Lionels #6.
I could add I feel the C&F coaches look a bit dated for the time, not as appealing as their standard gauge rivals, and the #6 is rather elegantly proportioned, especially for the time, not unlike the Carlisle Atlantic's, but the competing Lionel product looks tougher, and a bit more more modern (the coaches from 1910 looking like 1910 coaches rather than 1890).
I could add one look at either catalogue and seeing their respective track systems: to his credit as early as 1906 Cowan could see strip rail as being a dead end and following the German track systems.
And contrary I think to our modern day thoughts: Lionel pricewise tended to give a buyer more bang for the buck. A typical bing or Ives set, although cheaper, would've been Clockwork, in a couple of years gauge 1, still cheaper but with less bulk: Lionels nice enamel finish, 100% electricity, longer and heftier trains: well worth the small extra cost.
Is there anyway you could make your videos 5 times longer? You're a mind of information and really interesting.
Five times longer oh my I don't want to put everyone to sleep
Yes it's fun trying to piece together history seeing what all the players were doing
For Finch the trains were a seasonal
Business they're making money with their other lines.
This is also the case with Voltamp , Howard and Knapp .
Lionel at this time was pretty much just trains so they had to swim or sink hence the aggressiveness in sales and trying to capture the market.
The German imports were huge in comparison they were able to undercut many price points.
It took World War I to take them out of the equation allowing the American toymakers to fill that void
How did Carlisle & Finch insulate the wheels from each other for two rail operation? Are there wood plugs in the wheels or similar?
Axles are split ...fiber tubing separates the two sides ...wood chassis ...clever , simple and it works ...
@@vintage-model-trains like a split frame Bachmann; but while the Bachmann's tubing can split fresh out of the package; these are still good over a hundred years later!
I had no idea that electric trains went this early. How difficult are these to find? I'm interested in putting together a ~1910s model train set someday and am curious what the cost might be.
They're always a wide range of antique trains available on various auction sites check live auctioneers or invaluable auctioneers it needn't be very expensive but it can be
OK Leonard, why don't you just come out and admit to being a time-traveler?
A benevolant time-traveler just the same who's willing to share the finds!
Thanks for posting!